BB King had a sealed chamber 335 style guitar in an attempt to prevent feedback. 335s do have a tone block down the middle. I like the f holes because you get as a little more of the acoustic sound when you play. It probably doesn't do anything for the audience, but it does in how I play.
@5:19 - "If you have empirical evidence..." Dude - you're a master luthier. Can't you build 2 identical guitars (one with an f hole & one without) to demonstrate it? I get it, time & materials aren't free - but what a fascinating video series that would be.
No two guitars are quite alike. However, this experiment could in principle be done...build 1 guitar with no f-holes, record it being played, then cut the f-holes (don't wait too long--the wood is always changing) and record it again. Best be sure to get all the sounds you want the first go-round, though, because there is no going back.
Late reply. According to the guitar books I've read that explain how guitars make sound, and my own experiences, the short answer is that it depends on how the bridge, top, and inside of the guitar are working together. An acoustic guitar chamber (dreadnought, jazz box, etc.) works by floating the bridge on the top of the guitar in some way. So, if the bridge of a given guitar floats on the top, then an F-hole will become a factor. A soundhole is required for the sound to project from the instrument; the size and shape of that hole (or series of holes, as with some Ovation guitars) determines how much sound and what frequencies are allowed out of the guitar. Relative to the acoustic design electric guitars derive tone (by this I mean strictly frequency composition) mostly from the pickups, while the body material contributes mostly to sustain, with a small amount of tone (again, strict meaning) being affected as well. The pickups, and to some degree the bridge, are mounted firmly to the body or pickguard, which is not vibrating "as significantly" as the top of an acoustic. Incidentally, whether the pickups AND bridge float on a top, as with many jazz boxes, will make a difference in overall sound as well, cuz the pickups will be vibrating, and thus the magnetic field will be changing position relative to the strings. This can have different effects for each guitar. Some cool jazz box designs have the bridge floating, and the pickups mounted firmly to a block that is secured to the neck and/or back of the guitar. They can even have a neck-through design, so long as the neck is solid under the pickups and holed, arched, or etc. under the spaces between pickups, and possibly from the bridge to the bottom of the guitar, to allow more sound transfer between the sides (floating the bridge is optional and likely). This is the kind of guitar I want, especially a 12-string. I derived this concept from what I learned (part of which is what I shared here), and was happy to find out that some already exist. Disclaimer--I'm not a luthier. What I know is learned or gleaned from experts, and bundled together in my mind in order to guide my choices. It isn't rocket surgery, though.
One thing I really love about your videos is your honesty: unlike a certain other guy with the initials SG, you're not afraid to admit you don't know something and you're completely open to discovering you were wrong - Bravo!
I have a 335 and a Les Paul exact same strings and setup and I think you are correct tone is in a large part perception. The semi hollow 335 has a softer sound/tone but I believe it is in a large part its less sustain causing that effect.
Hi Ben, It's 4:30am here in New Zealand but I felt like I had to chip in before bed. I've been following your videos for a while now; they're really interesting. One of my favourite things to do with guitars is to implant proper coil pickups into acoustic guitars. My favourite way to visualise what happens when the top of a guitar moves is to draw upon my trade as a sound engineer, and think of the hollow body/cavity as a speaker cabinet. In speaker cabinets you have the speaker itself, which requires that it can move back and forth, and a bunch of air inside a box. If the box is sealed then it makes it harder for the speaker to move; when it pushes back it's fighting a higher air pressure and when it pushes forward it's fighting a lower air pressure. This is why we port the boxes. Ports are those big round holes you see, often in the back of speaker cabs or in the front of a lot of guitar amps. Ports allow just the right amount of air to move back and forth in and out of the box. They can be tuned to change the impedance of the air and to change the resonant frequency/ies of the speaker itself. Acoustic guitars- while being a little different in their construction- function in much the same way; a fairly rigid back and sides and a thin, flexible top ported with air holes allow the top to move back and forth like the speaker cone. Ovation guitars are my favourite example of this; their back and sides are one big comfy piece of plasticy stuff that's rigid as hell while the delicate top moves back and forth. The strings are, of course, attached at the point where the top has the greatest flexibility. The really fun part about all this is that it doesn't matter where the port/soundhole is located, as long as it allows enough air to move back and forth. Ovation would rather have the part where the soundhole is usually located be a nice bit of thin wood instead, so they move the soundholes to the edges. I've not measured it but I have a feeling that if you added up the area of a standard Ovation's soundholes it'd come out roughly the same as a regular acoustic. 335s (you were right, they've got a block through the middle and chambers either side) and some thinline or chambered electrics have thin enough tops that playing them unplugged can sound really nice. Porting those cavities will allow the top greater movement and may make the guitar feel lighter or livelier, or at least that's what I've found in my experience. The 335s (and copies etc) that I've played sounded a bit deader when their f-holes were taped over (commonly done to reduce on-stage feedback) but that might just be my placebic mind. The part that really interets me about f-holes is that rather than being just round holes, they've got lots of little fiddly bits that would vibrate much more readily than the rest of the top. They're much less connected than the rest of the wood. Maybe they could really accentuate some hidden harmonics? As to the sound of the instrument when it's plugged in, I think it does affect the tone but only a little. Most of what's happening is an intimate conversation between your strings and your pickups. On this guitar th-cam.com/video/MYdPDRPa7OQ/w-d-xo.html I found that leaving the cutaway open kinda made the instrument feel flappier, both acoustically and through the amp. In this case it helped because any extra detail I could get from three strings was awesome. Anyway I've taken too much of your time already. Keep up the good work!
CorneliusSneedley There is a whole chain of sound from the strings to the foot pedals to the rack mounted stuff to the amp to the microphone to the mixer to the sound engineer to the PA system to the room the band is playing in. If somebody was playing in a club with a full band and the guy changed from a real '59 Les Paul to another guitar with humbuckers, I don't think the audience would know the difference. That includes the guitarist if somebody else was playing his rig. Bernie Marsden did that with Joe Bonamassa. Joe played Bernie's '59 Gibson and Bernie was playing a $650 guitar at a concert. The difference in sound could have been attributed to pick attack or cabinet speakers. Rockabilly guitarists use those F hole guitars just for show because it's traditional. Give them a solid body and nobody will know there was a change.
I'm generally of the opinion that woods, chambering and construction may make some minor differences to clean signal, but once you're playing life through with an amp mic'd up to a PA with a sound guy who's done his own EQ of your tone that doesn't make any difference, especially to an audience who don't care what wood your guitar is made of. It's kind of like wearing lucky socks or underwear - it might make a difference to you personally but the audience don't really care.
Whether or not the audience can hear it is missing a very significant point; if the player 'hears' or 'feels' it, he/she will play differently, and that will affect what the audience hears. As it happens I think the wood used and the construction methods employed do make a difference, and the louder you play and the more gain is used, the more the 'secondary' harmonics (resulting from the initial string vibration passing into the body and reflecting back to the strings) will be evident. But hey - we all have different views, and I'm good with all of them, because they're yours.
I have a Givson 215 Standard Spanish F-Hole guitar which is Loud. I put on a pickup but it gives off a lot of feedback. Should i put on electric guitar strings and tape up the holes with cardboard?
BB King asked gibson to not have the f holes on a 335 because he said it had less feed back while still having the 335 warmth. go out to a store that has a 335 and a lucille and check it out.
Are f holes not there to help with feedback? As they would allow the vibrations to be released easier than through the top. I was always under that impression.
Crimson Custom Guitars I have a question: I am thinking of building my first guitar and because I have a lot of spare cherry, and I am wondering if it is a good material to use, for maybe the body of the guitar? Thank you very much!
A tone chamber also reduces the amount of pick attack (vs solid body). Very very slightly, but it could be a variable to prevent ice pick like treble frequencies.
Ben! I'm trying to find the video you did where you talked about using neodymium magnets for the cavity cover and specifically removing it with a larger magnet. I tried it but can't make it work. Can you direct me to the relevant video where you demonstrate it
mistershankley Hey! I think that would be in the Clarity series in the guild, at least that is the guitar it was first done on.. I may well have mentioned it in the podcast at some point but can't remember when... um, tell you what. CVheck out the next podcast to be uploaded, I'll go record it now, should be live in a few hours. :)
I've seen a guy do a comparison between I think a strat and some strat guts mounted to a wood crate. No discernible difference in sound between guitar electronics mounted to a crate and those mounted into the guitar body. The string and magnet don't seem to care what they are mounted to as long as they can make electric current. .Sustain is related to how rigid your setup is and the strings. So it kind of comes down to your strings, bridge, nut and scale.Your pickups, amp and strings create your tone. I am an expert because I have watched videos so you can take this as gospel. No, really that's just my guess. Waving a tree or a 2x4 over a magnet doesn't seem to create electricity like a wire does so I can't see how an electric guitar sound could be influenced by the wood it's mounted to other than how well it's mounted. Only the cost to the builder ( and durability of the guitar ) is influenced by the type of wood. You don't want it breaking half when you tune it up to pitch. Someone would have to do some kind of test with two freakishly identical setups on two different guitar bodies. Swapping all the electronics and strings from one to the other so the exact same parts are used on both bodies. Ultimately who the hell cares? If you can play and have a guitar to play on, COOL! Have fun.
An ES335 without F holes would be the BB King Lucille guitar. I'm not aware of any other significant changes. Unfortunately I'm also not aware of how different they sound! As to the video showing that one guitar placed on top of another and the tone not changing... There's another video he did showing that sustain varies with different neck/body joints. I can't see how it can be argued that the wood used doesn't alter the sound but that the neck joint does.
Ben , I totally agree with your analysis. Just a quick comment on the Gibson 335. I has a middle separation creating two cavities. However, the older Gibson 330 does not, its body is completely hollow. The latest is more sensitive to feedback , and requires neck adjustments as the body is less stiff. It is difficult though to compare the sound of the 330 and the 335 as the 330 has P90s and the 335 has PAF humbuckers.
If your accoustic sound is altered, your electric sound is altered. You have vibrations transmitted into air which behaves as a damping factor on the resonant components. This is more noticeable in the decay of a note as the harmonics that sound the longest are the ones that are damped least. Unfortunately we need to look at two models for sound transmission, a notional solid body and an air pump. The latter only occurs with a relatively thin panel forms a wall of an enclosed chamber. F hole size and shape will affect the efficiency of your air pump. Relatively thick panels make for a woefully inefficient air pump. Small chambers have higher resonant frequencies than large chambers. This is well documented fluid mechanics. It's the same maths that governs the porting of a speaker cabinet. 18mm of plywood or MDF can resonate visibly when agitated with hundreds or thousands of watts. There's maths for this. It's the same maths that applies to vehicle exhausts, particularly on two stroke engines that use an expansion chamber to increase the effective compression ratio. Get googling. Small 'weight relief' chambers are quite inefficient in an otherwise solid body but an accoustic guitar or a violin is an efficient sound pump. Taping a sound hole may not give a complete answered as the tape will transmit high frequencies like a drum skin.
I know that the soundholes make a huge difference on violins. I read an article on that an engineering website. Some guys from the MIT tested around 150 violins. They discovered that the master builders like stradivari etc. found out over time that it was better to use narrow f-holes. The thinner they get, the faster the air and the louder the sound of the violin. A thicker back was also helpful to get more reflection.I don't think it makes any difference with small cavitys or without a thin top than can swing. I'd say it makes a slight difference on semi-hollow guitars. www.ingenieur.de/Fachbereiche/Mess-Prueftechnik/Violinen-akustische-Kraft-Die-Schallloecher-entscheidend Here is a link to an english article which also provides the link to the full MIT paper: boingboing.net/2015/03/09/why-violin-makers-adopted-the.html If you found that helpful...how about a discount on some of your tools? Oh and think about something different for nut work than that mulit-thingy.
I haven't read that article in a while, thanks for reminding me, it is truly fascinating! Drop me an email through the www.crimsonguitars.com/contact-us and I'll sort you out.. In the meantime what do you have in mind for the nut slotting tool.. And more importantly what's wrong with the current one :(
+onpsxmember The f-ness of the hole is just an aesthetic touch, though, on anything that isn't constructed in broadly the same way as a violin. As much as anything, the orientation, length and spacing of the f-holes (along with the bass bar, belly and waist, naturally) control the vibrational modes of the top (allowing for oil-can, longitudinal and lateral resonances to account for the full tonal and overtone range of the instrument, which are in turn transferred to the back via the soundpost). Those parts of the equation simply aren't there on a semi-hollow/semi-solid electric; you can concentrate exclusively on air flow and chamber resonances. But let's face it, it's early days for ways to effectively model what's really going on (you don't quite need a month of Cray X-MP time anymore, but the solid and fluid dynamics still aren't trivial, and physically building a few hundred instruments to test hypotheses is not cost-effective), and most of what we're working with is several centuries of trial and error combined with traditional preferences, prejudices and a few wild guesses.
Crimson Custom Guitars I'm happy that you found my comment usefull. *First you can help me a lot if you would answer your mails depending my pledge via kickstarter and my problem with using the guild membership. I'm trying to get an answer for more than a week to access my master apprentice account. I wrote you about certain CNC machines and we made a deal via paypal ouside of kickstarter.*To the nut slotting tool:The wide variation of blades are nice, but maybe more for some guitar tech on the run than an luthier in his workshop. I'd prefer it if the blades (which are more saw-like) would be in a little box with a full scale handle to mount one of the blades from the box. I know small precision files are expensive, but the way they form a nut is just different than a saw. Its possible to shape the "channel". At the moment I think about getting files from DICK in germany or Vallorbe from france with the exact wide of the slots ("Scharnier"-files for locksmiths). I know there are still some smaller file makers but its hard to find them. Your tool is a good compromise but improveable. At the moment i want to do it that way to hone my skills. Later it would be best to programm it with a CAM/CAD-Software to make slots exactly for the string that will be used. I hope your voice didn't get higher^^ and everything went fine. If anyone here can direct me to small, very good file makers in germany or europe, send me a message.
+essellar The size and shape of the F hole is used to tune the instrument. Check out violin building videos. Besides a lot of arch tops are hollow, and even ones with tone blocks in them are also pretty hollow. A semi hollow guitar sounds totally different to the same model that is a solid body. Check out a tele vs a thin line, a PRS semi vs a custom 24 and so on. I have a hollow body strat and a hollow body tele i.e. they have a hollow body with a tone block. The sound is totally different to my solid bodied tele and strat.
+onpsxmember I would have thought that on an electric guitar - which makes the sound through electro-magnetic pickups sensing the strings - that hollowness will affect the sustain but not the fundamental timbre.
Question.... I've found sustain go out the window when the guitar is pressed to you body, cause the vibrations are absorbed. I think tone is most effected by mass. Less mass less mass for vibrations to move.... very interesting question. I use my tele thinline mostly for practicing without an amp. It is 4 times as loud as my solid alder tele.... so hmmm
Hey BEN!! I LOVE YOUR CHANNEL and the content. I have a good question. How can you achieve the pure jazzy-sound of a hollowbody with a solid body instrument? I have been sold or blown away by Jens Ritter's "Princess Isabella " guitar...I want a sound similar to that. But I dont know where to begin....I'm thinking of a kit build. Does Crimson offer Jazzmaster body kits??
Oh by the way I found this one on the mighty internet. I'm not sure if it's legit but seemed enough for me. For "Tl;dr"ers, "Why did violins slowly develop f-shaped sound-holes? Because it makes them more acoustically powerful than their ancestors, which had holes shaped liked a circle -- as a team of MIT scientists recently concluded". As for the source: boingboing.net/2015/03/09/why-violin-makers-adopted-the.html
I think your point is well illustrated by the Gibson Lucille, the model inspired by BB King. Mr King used to play a ES345 but the F holes were creating too much feedback (even if there is a center block) so he covered the holes with something (don't know the details). Eventually Gibson developed a model that was exactly the same as the 345 (or 355) just with the top without holes. And it sounds the same
I just watched this podcast and it’s an amazing concept that I think you should dig into, to my knowledge, the acoustic generated by the f hole provides with certain reaction when the instrument is exposed to the vibrations of the sound from the amplifier itself, meaning: the sound that enters again the cavity will react to the material of the instrument and cause different reactions depending on the position of the hole, in a feedback type of reaction, the closest it is to the bridge the higher pitch will resonate with the instrument itself.... please, let me know what you think
Projection of sound? About 5 yrs ago i went to my local shop to buy strings,and a dobro was sat facing the door i always facied 1! I bought it amazing! Went home an played then gave it to my dad, who since passed away and bought a les paul 2015 with cash he left! when i played something missing? it came alive when he played? Its pushing sound forward, bridge, buiscut, cone,body through its many holes! The body shields the player from certain frequencies, harmonics? He said same thing? nice to hear it.???
cant get my brain around this one . what vibrates more ; a hollow log or a solid log .An f hole is supposedly to transmit sound out towards the ear like an acoustic guitar sound hole ;the hollow log with one side more like a drum head w strings .This is best recorded with a mike in front of the guitar not inside it .The sold body and pickup is about sting vibration not sending sound outward from a resonating chamber .so the f hole or hollow body projects sound energy outward ? not keeping it in the solid mass that would register more in the strings and pup ? hence forth the 335 sounds not as blistering and clear as the les paul ?
I would say that a more specific question is perception. The majority of us do not have the money to create a specific tone. It comes down to what feels comfortable, has the features you are looking for and is affordable. You can always upgrade pickups, the nut and electronics.
I am with you in what you say, it is an interesting subject. Let me say I have a solid body Tele with maple neck and board and a Thinline Tele with single F-hole, maple neck and board. Same pickups in each. The Thinline definitely has a different 'sound' and sustain, it is very much brighter than the solid body and less punchy, all as you might expect. One doesn't sound better than the other, just different.
I'm so sick of this whole tonewood debate because most people immediately turn in a dead end street... I'll explain myself. The problem is that you can't prove or disprove if choice of wood makes a difference, because no 2 pieces of wood are the same, so you can't do an accurate test. But the debate isn't about wood at all, it's about whether the density (and other qualities) of a material (ANY MATERIAL) has an impact on the tone when used in a guitar. So, they have plenty of plastics and stuff, which someone could use to make a few identical guitars... . If we did that with a few different materials (differing from each other like different types of wood would, different density, different elasticity, all that stuff...) it would allow us to test this properly. Hell, I have a luthite Ibanez! Someone could make one with some hollow chambers inside to see what it sounds like. It would probably all sound like crap, but that's not the point. It would be possible to measure the differences in output. If it would make a difference with synthetics or some other material that can be easily replicated, it certainly would with wood. I can't understand why no one has ever tried this, there must be some asshole with a large enough 3D printer to be able to pull this of!
Simon de rycke It's something I have studied with regard to building a high end record deck and tonearm. Except in reverse, because you want to remove vibration, rather than encourage it. It's a very, very complex subject because vibrations reflect at material boundaries and generally don't behave in an intuitive manner. My solution was to say " I'm not clever enough to understand this " and give up :-)))
Anglo Spanish Racing I'm not, at all, trying to get rid of the vibrations. I am merely suggesting to use a material (any material or combination of materials) that can be easily reproduced, to get rid of the whole 'every piece of wood is different' problem in this debate. The output will be measured and any differences between different materials will be discovered. If there aren't, well, there won't be in wood either. You don't have to understand everything to be able to test something, that's what science is all about and always has been.
Sorry if I came over as being flippant. You would need a spectrum analyser to record all the harmonics of the sound of course, but that 's easy enough at audio frequencies nowadays with PC based oscilloscopes . I suspect that you won't change too many minds with a piece of research like this, a lot of people don't understand scientific method. And also there is a lot of pseudoscience involved in audio...check out 'audiophile' cables if you ever want a laugh...or to cry :-)))
Anglo Spanish Racing I'm pretty sure there actually isn't any other means of testing this. If people don't accept the results they might be just unwilling to accept them because they lose face or money. I don't care about image - I care about the truth. And also, nuances. I would love to prove any camp wrong, because they both are sure damned convinced they are 100% right. I appreciate Ben's wariness about the subject.
type in: Olaf Diegel, (though the guitars have wood block to hold the pickups and wooden neck) Even though i dont like the sound, i dont know if its because the guy/s playing , the amp or whatever, its still interesting to see that unconventional looking guitars(and how they are made)
Advice i have followed: *Want to build a guitar? Put together a kit, *Want to know the difference between set neck and bolt on? Plug the holes, scrape the finish, shim it up, glue it on.* First Guitar? Don’t sweat the details. First full build. Only used a ruler to lay out frets and intonation. Set neck tele kit has one of a kind feel. *plan to build a solid oak flying V. Made from a kitchen table found in a shed in a house abandoned in 1970’s
Why do hollow-body guitars (335 type) as a whole, seem to have "feedback" issues, more than solid-body guitars with the same pups? Especially when they are around other amps and guitars?
@@josearaujo8616 I've worked on several and I've never seen any shielding? This is not a trick question.... I don't know the answer(s) but I'd like to...?
@@markbuckallew4689 feedback is generated because of the magnetic interference, that you block through shielding, which is easy to do in a solid body with copper or aluminum tape in the pickup cavities (humbuckers don't need them) and control cavities, you can also use conductive paint, that you then connect to the ground. In all electronics you should have a Faraday cage to avoid interference , which is basically a metal case or grid grounded surrounding the electronics. On a hollow body you should paint the inner body with conductive paint, or use metallic tape, before gluing the top and bottom (the hole inside of the body will act like a faraday cage). If the body is already assembled you should put some aluminum tape in the inside the max you can reach, specially inside the top and bottom (paint the tape black so you can't see it through the f holes). You can try to build a small box with carton, rap it with aluminum tape, be sure its connected to the ground, and then fit it through the pickup cavities or f-holes and secure it so it so it covers the controls and touches the metal tape in the inside of the top, its hard to do. The final possible solution is to wrap all pots and controls with aluminum tape in the outside, connect the outside of the tape to the ground on the pot and then mount them. Always use shielded wire... and make sure all the pickups are well potted Hope it works
@@josearaujo8616 Damn...... absolutely great explanation of how to protect your pup's and electronics from 60 cycle hum. I'm actually a luthier, so I'm familiar with the different shielding methods and the reasons why, etcetera. I've built guitars with and without shielding (whatever the new owner wants...) it just doesn't seem to be the issue it used to be, unless you want feedback on purpose..... I didn't mean to get a thread started on shielding, but it turned out to be good. Players could learn a lot from reading your explanation, seriously. I've just got some friends in a band and one plays an Epi Dot and sometimes it just doesn't need to be in the room? Nice talking with you dude...
@@markbuckallew4689 great talking to you too. I'm no luthier but I have an interest in sound, what is more curios to me is why don't many luthiers shield the hollow body before gluing the parts, and why don't guitar parts like pots and switches come with a shielding case from factory... even expensive pre-wired pick guards don't do it...
with the covering up the soundhole on a 335, B.B.King's Lucille model is identical to a 345 (335 with a varitone) but without the f-holes so someone could always do a comparison between the 2 for a bit. would be a lot more conclusive than testing it with paper/tape over the f-holes.
I know less than zero about guitar building, but feel well qualified to tackle this issue. Any change you make to a guitar body will, in some way, affect the tone/sound/other characteristics of the instrument. Whether this effect is measurable with less than a metric asston of lab gear is another story.
I would concur with Ben's honest, albeit rambling-rose explanation. That said and Ben did mention this, that it all depends upon what type of instrument. GIven that the electronics and signal chain are responsible for around 90% of the voicing of any solid, semi-solid/semi-acoustic electric instruments when amplified, his explanation makes perfect sense. . I've got two semi-hollow guitars, a PRS S2 Cu22 (one 'f' hole) and a Daisy Rock 12 string (one 'f' hole). I also had a solid PRS SE Cu24 which constructionwise was very similar to its stablemate, both were fitted necks, mahogany bodied, with the S2 having a flamed maple capping and the SE with a flamed veneer over mahogany body) and I swapped over the pups and assoc electronics (both G&B's, but differening impedances) on these guitars, apart from the S2 being slightly easier on the fretboard, the electrified voicing of the SE was almost identical to the S2 when fitted with the S2's pups... Likewise, the obverse with the S2. However, unamplified, when strummed, the S2 rang slighly louder than the SE solid, so there was a subtle difference that maybe attributed to the solid maple capping and 'resonance chamber' (BEN...), or lack thereof. . The Daisy Rock has completely different characteristics, as it is fitted with 'Filtertron' style pups and constructed in boxwood (as far as I can tell...), screw-fixed neck. I suspect however, that there would be little difference in amplified voicing if it were constructed without a resonance chamber or 'f' hole.
I would say that the only real sound difference between a hollow body electric and a solid body electric with the same pickups is when you get a feedback effect when playing loud on the hollow body at times which is is kind a nice, like Grand Funk Railroad.
Ben, colliding industries! I lent someone my loud speaker design book a long time ago and never got it back but the concept is your home stereo speaker box must be sized to the speaker driver while the existence and size of any holes in the case like ports (or f-holes) are very important. That speaker is the last step in getting famous guitar tone from the player to the listener. I strongly suspect that nearly all semi-acoustic electric guitars never had any formal sizing done on them. Acoustic guitars might have done this but probably still informally "this guitar is loud, that one is quiet, let's make more like the first!" The "port" in the acoustic guitar is sized for the builder's hand not the sound that comes out. A pair of links to Internet-based Speaker Enclosure Design (www.bcae1.com/spboxnew2.htm , audio.claub.net/software/kougaard/ubmodel.html). I think it could be very interesting to apply these calculations to the design of an acoustic guitar to maximize its output - a testing platform could make a rectangular guitar like a speaker enclosure. How small might the port need to be to work optimally for sound transmission? How big might the box-guitar need to be?
In an hermetic chamber, the trapped air play a role in the way the guitar vibrates : vibrations transmitted thru air to the back plate and echoes from that back to the top plate maybe. The wood "vibrating" characteristics interferes with the 'air' elastic and somewhat dampening characteristics and gives a resulting vibration. With a "f hole", the air is less of a factor that acts like a 'spring'-'dampener' into the chamber. The top plate of the guitar then vibrates with less interference coming from the trapped air. Would the sound then be 'sharper', 'woodier' ? The "f hole" is a limited area of cut out on the top plate. It would let the air travelling thru it in two directions in a controlled way (depending on the hole position on the body and the opening area). Just like if we, humans, were trying to get some air in and out with a straw. Therefore, the top plate would vibrate more freely. We would hear more of the wood tonal characteristics ? But not as if the 'f hole' was a big hole letting the air total freedom of movement. The result would be somewhere between a hermetic chamber and a "ported" chamber giving the wanted tonal characteristics. Therefore, the 'f hole' would be a "tuning" characteristic (position, shape, area of opening). If the top plate is 0.25" or 6mm thick, not sure it does much though... I might be wrong too. But still, any 'resulting' wood vibration (from neck, head stock, body), will necessarily have a effect on the 'relative' movement between the strings and the pickups... That's what makes a difference from one electric guitar to another one (for the same pickup model and positions. A stratocaster for instance). The importance of the wood tone effect may not be as much as we would like it to be but it's there ! Tuning the right body wood with the right neck woods could create a hell of a great tone machine... (ps. it's a mechanical engineer input; nothing more. But anyways, don't listen to those who say the wood has no importance !)
BB KING did so in his 335 Lucille when he order it to Gibson he did not wanted the f holes for the feedback efect and he allegedly found a more consistant and longer sustain so he reported . He used to cover the F holes before with tape , but he never ever talked about tone specificaly only about feedback and sustain he also played with ligtht gauge strings a rather distict move away from other blues man of the time and early ,this made him more ductile and capable of extreme bending the strings that characterized his stile . other variation over the f holes made by gibson was the 335 TRINI LOPEZ that has diamonds instead of f holes and a firebird like headstock (that would be an improve over the traditional gibson headstok?) but its just for looks i guess
I find it weird that you,re talking about these differences but aren,t sure about the tone block in 335s.Most players in the sixties knew that 330s feed back more with no tone block. The 6120 Gretsches from the eighties or nineties feed back ,ie the body vibrates at volume compared to the tonepost altered later ones.
My experience, playing full, semi, tone chamber f holes, and solid. Comparing a tone chamber to solid is subtle. The tone chambered is less massive and reduces the higher frequency, (easily absorbed by the body) but adds a different feedback frequency to the top end. Solid, the high frequency is not lost but the harmonic feedback is lower. Side by side, I choose a chambered guitar with a solid state amp over a solid guitar with a tube amp. My personal opinion, endorsed by no one but me.
Fact: tone and resonance are affected by mass, a solid mass vs a mass with cavities or is more porous has less mass, and thus a change in tone as well as resonance. This is also affected by the density of the mass, as the tighter, the molecular structure of a solid; the greater the density, and thus producing higher frequency or pitch. a perfect example of this is the difference between a wood instrument and one made from brass, silver or aluminum. The beauty of wood is that the variations of timber effect all of these measures yet, unlike metal, has the molecular resonance that vibrates differently than say copper. This is why a Stradivarius violin is made hollow from Italian alpine Englemann spruce and produced balance tone, pitch, and resonance. Whereas a steel guitar has tin top and creates a vibrating resonance that has a particular twang to it.So the correct answer to the question is yes a sound hole affects tone and resonance, yet you seem to address whether based on the volume of mass and thus density, can it be detected by the average human ear when played acoustically or when amplified. A fun site, www.physicsclassroom.com/class/sound/Lesson-5/Resonance books.google.com/books?id=TfE5AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA388&lpg=PA388&dq=mathmatic+equation+for+tone,+pitch+and+resonance?&source=bl&ots=hp46K1NIaq&sig=AzNR8Ux62U1u5aAXKGGWYG9Dmkc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjXm4rzipDZAhVB9GMKHfZIBYoQ6AEIODAC#v=onepage&q=mathmatic%20equation%20for%20tone%2C%20pitch%20and%20resonance%3F&f=false
As far as an unplugged electric that HAS an f hole it WILL be louder ONLY acoustically. So if you need a guitar that has acoustic parts and electric parts for recording or maybe live but you only wanna bring 1 guitar its possible to get that sound. I would suggest going full semi hollow or hollow though and not the one little f hole for that but hey, do what you want. You could get an f hole, cut out the back for a plate, put black microfiber over the hole and have a little storage pocket for picks tuners and gear, cut the hole the same shape and size as a premade plate and bam.
From a physics perspective, different woods simply must affect the string's vibration patterns. The vast majority (IMO as a physicist and an audiophile) of tone nuances are subtle. Indeed, they are very subtle. As an opinionated picker of nits, I am certain that the average person cannot differentiate most of these differences. Further, once you plug a guitar into an amplifier and move the volume knob up from zero, all bets are off. Dime (turn up to 10) any amp and people who can speak with authority about the tone wood nuances on display are about as rare as tits on a bicycle. People who disagree with me on this subject about as annoying as art critics.
it depends on how "classic" your tone is, for example I have come across tons of people who say the wood of the body makes no difference, even with an acrylic body, but they are all playing instruments with a maple neck, which make up a lot of your sound, if you go around trying more exotic woods that have a difference response to the mass produced instrument, then the difference seems more noticeable. for example, an alder body with a maple neck has little difference to a mahogany body with a maple neck, I recently build a Lingue neck (local hardwood) with a Laurelia body (local hardwood too) and cumaru fretboard (brazilian tropical hardwood) and the sound is extremely different to the guitar where I took the pickups from, can show you a sound clip if you want.
No they do not because strings aren't attached to the wood, they are vibrating supported by the bridge and the nut. Also physics tells us that me more energy is loss through the body due to lack of support of the bridge, the worst it is. So you can actually make a good case against resonant woods. Actually magnetic pickups would sound on vacuum... while you would hear no sound from the strings you would actually have sound through the speakers.
You have many factors at play here, not least of which is the effect of the logarithmic nature of amplitude. The more energy is put into the strings and transfers into the body the more important the cavities and associated apertures are. You can apply the principle of the infinite baffle vs ported/open design from speaker construction. Played acoustically there will not be much difference in a solid body guitar with an f hole (or any kind of aperture), but when the guitar is attached to an amplifier and speaker the total energy available will tend to cause the aperture to resonate at a particular frequency. The tuning of that frequency becomes crucial, and it explains why the very loudest bands tend to use solid body guitars, although the closed cavities of a Les Paul produce a resonance that some find irresistible. The thickness of the walls of the cavity are also crucial to the transference of the resonance. So, many factors at play, none of which will matter a damn if your bridge is a piece of crap!
BigEdWo Well, it has to serve the purpose you want it to serve! But if the bridge isn't doing the job of transferring the vibration from the string to the body and back again you will lose both tone and sustain. As a general rule the more metal is in the bridge the brighter it will sound and the more sustain you'll get. I've seen bridges that were actually loose, held in place mostly by the tension of the strings. You can radically alter the sound by making the bridge more efficient. But the point is, no matter how wonderful the tone wood or the chambering, if the bridge and the neck aren't fixed properly you won't hear the difference.
many people say the bridge is the most important thing when it comes to tone. there is probably something to it. i'm not so sure if it is the vibration thing. in the end i don't know.
BigEdWo It's about the way the string vibration reaches the body and then transfers back through the bridge to the string. If the body was made of foam (impossible, I know) then the string sound would die very quickly. The other key zone is the neck joint. Any looseness there will affect the sound. The most efficient neck design is the bolt on, followed by a glued joint. A through neck will sustain less. That's because density is critical at that point. The metal screws and neck plate of a bolt on neck provide the most efficient way to transfer the vibrations from the neck to the body, Glue has more density than wood, which is why the through neck design is the least efficient. So, cavities and holes come a long way down the list of things that affect the sound, but once you have everything else sorted they can add something (whether pleasant or not).
should be a simple question " what is the best way to fix an electric guitar neck that was split by installing a neck with to long of neck bolt screws fender squire neck issue from using shorter neck screws in squire necks vs fender long bolt on necks
I think after he would get that info from some one he would post a video with a name: "Tonal difference of F-hole from an A-hole" Of course Im not implying you Crimson guitars
Actually, listen to most youtube comparison videos on pedals, guitars and pickups and nothing seems to make a difference. Unfortunately, its all in the fingers.
very true... best videos to see the actual difference in gear is with mics. Apart from the slightly different warmer sound (IMHO mostly due to pre-amps) and output levels, there is almost absolutely no difference in mic tones, nothing you can't just equalize easily.
I ran this test with an acoustic guitar (Maton): I recorded the same tune twice and tried to keep all variables as similar as possible, the only difference was to plug the soundhole with a Feedback buster once. It was nearly impossible to distinguish the two recordings let a lot tell which sounded better. My conclusion: pickups, preamps and electronics contribute heavily to the tone of an instrument and can easily outweigh the mechanical/material side.
Covering the hole is a much smaller difference than if the hole is cut at all or not. Covering it doesn't make the top any stiffer. Also, as said before, while electronics have a much bigger part in the sound, they don't have a similar effect as wood and structure. It's about how the sound decays after you strum and how feedback sustains different frequencies.
Is there a video where he discusses his head tattoos? I know this is a luthiers information channel, but people MUST be interested, they are rather striking, and it would be a nice insight into the man behind crimson guitars
I had one of those Krap amps once - they're going for a fortune on e-bay now that Dan Auerbach has added a velour plush-button one to his rig. Swapped mine for a Peavey Bandit - schoolboy error!
i have a solid tele and a tele with an f hole and they do sound a lot different but i think you could only tell on a clean sound i think they sound nicer but not really better ,to many variables unless someone made two guitars out of the same lump of wood and compared them.
MIT did a study on the f hole. Made a big difference. It was specifically the violin but interesting nonetheless. It of course doesn't prove anything with regards to a standard configuration electric guitar. One or more pickups mounted on the front of the instrument directly under the strings. I've heard differences in demos of solid Les Pauls, modern weight relief, and fully chambered. The sampling of instruments though was one of each. So, not really enough of a sample size to be statistically significant. I can say that the difference was greater though than what I've noticed from simply different samples of the same instrument. news.mit.edu/2015/violin-acoustic-power-0210 And if I can say, don't be afraid to tell people what you can hear. If they don't want to believe you or can't hear it themselves don't worry about it. It's just that people who think "everything sounds the same" for some reason want to bully those who can hear a difference. "You're stupid, you're brainwashed, etc..." Yet these same people think that a digitally modeled amp or cab can sound like the real thing and nobody calls them out. It's like, you're happy then that's fine. A strat doesn't sound like a Les Paul. Even if you put humbuckers on the Strat or split the pickups on the Les Paul. A PRS S2 single cut doesn't sound like a Les Paul either. Nor do the custom 22 sound like a Strat regardless what pickup configuration you buy. Sorry to digress but it really bothered me watching you so painstakingly choosing your words instead of just answering the question so as not to incur the wrath of these individuals. The most interesting takeaway for me with the MIT study is it's very likely the renaissance era instrument makers relied solely on their ears to come up with the most efficient design for the hole on the soundboard (the f hole). Definitely no computer models or anechoic chambers and reference mics.
Every single thing, no matter how big or small, will effect the tone. It's really as simple as that. Even a single grain of sand in the pickup cavity will change the tone. I'm more than happy to admit that I can't personally hear the difference between a red nitro or a green nitro finish, for example, nor the grain of sand in the cavity, but I'm definitely not going to outwardly assert that there is unequivocally no difference between the two. Moreover, I'm sure as shit (this is the important bit) not going to start telling people that they can't hear the difference either! I might be right, but then again, they might have better hearing or judgement than I do! In those situations I've found it best to err on the side of caution, to avoid seeming like a total muppet :)
Will Turner Well some people just want to believe in the differences. There are a load of blind test videos with new and old strats with different finishes. Noone could tell them apart just by hearing. Most people don't hear better, but different. Search for psychoacoustics.
If I play my telecaster unplugged it has a sound. When I plug it into my amp on a clean setting I can still hear much of that sound. If I play my 335 unplugged it too has a sound (very different from the telecaster). Again when I plug it into my amp on a clean setting I can still hear much of its sound. Draw whatever conclusions you will from my not so very scientific experiment but according to my ears the electrics are only partly responsible.
no they don't. Play your tele plugged into the amp, with noise canceling headphones, and the neck supported in a wall to make it resonate more. When you move the neck away from the wall the acoustic resonance will change but the sound coming through the amp doesn't. You can also put nylon strings in your tele, and play it and you will hear absolutely no sound coming out from the amp. Resonance makes no difference in magnetic fields.
Anybody build an acoustic with f hole with center hole and or one that is not arch top but a flat top? Or anybody make or build an acoustic electric gibson es345?
As an electronics technician,and previously years ago a child,i would say density affects damping,understand then what what hard or soft materials do with respect to damping of vibration which in this case are sound waves ,you will have an easier time understanding what a single monolithic material will do,or a combination of hard and soft materials will do,almost like dual rate springs or rubber coated steel handle tools that strike blows but DON'T TRANSMIT THE SHOCK-"WAVE"- TO THE USERS HAND,HARD AND SOFT. This is why i wish to god i had used some form of natural hard glue like hide or fish glue than a synthetic plastic glue when i glued the neck of a strat copy in to place,because i know the plastic synthetic glue will act as a damper and soak up some of the higher frequency tone out of my axe,i can do that with a f"£kin pot and cap tone network to suit my taste on the day. Ask someone who changed their triumph spitfire suspension bushes from rubber to polyurethane what the effect is,smooth vibrational damping with a squidgy responce,to a harder bumpier ride with sharper more positive response all round,someone like me perhaps.And alloy blocks to clamp steering racks that give more steering hold than rubber bushes that allow some side to side sway that needs correcting at high speed,the soft material damps but soaks vibration,the hard material will transmit every little bump and vibration. Then the elctronics come into play,driving cables incurs capacitive reactance losses,and why an on board buffer is preffered to drive cables,so the high end is kept up and not lost,a good tonefull axe can be let down by cable losses,same as good pickups can be fitted to a shite guitar,much the same way as a £100,000+ LP gold top is wasted on a beginner player who has no tone in the grip,but who has better grip on his tool when jacking it. Pseudo science is the practice of knowing very little but acting like you know it all,the other term is BULLSHIT.
Why I didn't bother with an f hole on my "Les Pew" I used pine from a 150 year old church pew for the body and wanted to leave the original stained and waxed finish so didn't want to risk damaging it for the sake of decoration.
I agree with everything Ben said. In my experience, the guitars ive made with a f-hole (like the one in my avatar) dont contribute to the sound at all. They are purely cosmetic as well as some weight relief. A larger body with a bigger chamber will cause the guitar to resonate differently. How that translates into what the pickups "hear" from the strings vibrating is the question! My 3.5 cents.
hi ben, i think you will hear a difference. this is why. if have done many experiments with a music box. you know, that toy thing with a crank to make music. if you take a solid body guitar, lay it on a pillow, turn it upside down so the strings can not vibrate and you put that music box onto the back of the guitar, you can hear it playing through an amp which is turned pretty loud. if you remove the strings you can't hear anything. (if it's a potted pickup, unpotted pickups pickup the woods vibration too) why is that? i believe, the wood causes the pickup to vibrate. this is little movements towards the strings and back. it doesn't change the sound of a solid body guitar, because it's very quiet compared to the signal of the strings. but it's a different thing with a hollow body, where the wood moves a lot more.
Without getting into the tone wood debate, only focusing on the point regarding the 335, Yes it has a center block made of Maple. It keeps the guitar from creating feedback problems on stage at high volume. Yes the 335 has f holes, but the same guitar without F holes, is a very famous guitar you should be aware of. It's name is Lucille! B.B. King's famous blues guitar. Now a Les Paul type guitar chambered but without f holes, is called a Gretsch electromatic series. I have a single cut Gretsch. G5435T. Thats a mahogany body routed out to create the biggest air chamber as possible in that body style. Then an arched maple cap, but no F holes. The T stands for Tremolo. It has a Bigsby. The G5445 is basically the same guitar, but instead of mahogany they use basswood. Is there a difference in tone between the 5435 and 5445? I doubt it. But I can tell you having that air chamber does make a huge difference over a standard solid body. It mainly unfocuses the mid frequencies quite a bit. Making it less "dark". Same way there is a difference in the 335, and the 339. And the Midtown too for that matter. The bigger the air chamber, the less focused the tone is. Midtown, being in the middle in size between the 335 and the 339, is basically the most versatile. Tones being close to a 335 or change your dials and almost make it to a Les Paul sound. Usually, the 335, the Midtown, and the 339 all have the same pickups and pots. Usually. different years, Gibson does different things. And of course the custom shop can make whatever the heck you want as long as your wallet can support it. But mostly the 3 have PAF's.
I think there are so many factors a play when i comes to the sound of an instrument that the physical characteristics of the instrument is just a small thing. I think the amp and pickups you are using are more important anyways
IMHO even pickups do not matter that much.. they are so cheap to make, its just a magnet and some copper wire, actually. Most of the tone differences come from the logo, just like in Hi-fi
Im curious though acoustically if the f hole shape will make a difference. It should. If you change the shape of a hole you should be changing the vowel shape of the sound, like the human mouth talking. But plugged into an amp yea no change but acoustically tho.
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Your little chamber may make a change to the sound unplugged, but much of the tone debate is about the tone once intermediated through a pickup. Most solid guitars sound the same. It is the pickups that determine the sound difference. That and the touch of the player. Some set ups sound similar, take the strat honk. You can get that from a cheap Asian knockoff with super cheap pickups. Different (better) pickups will sound different, even if the guitar is made of MDF. That doesn't mean you can't change a solid guitar's tone, but that is more reliant on the things carrying/ interacting with the signal, from pickup, through cable, pedals to amp and beyond.
Also... I have the solution to your "tone" issue... The guitar is a system. EVERY part of the guitar is a part of this system. ANY variation between guitars, be it different grains of wood, different tuners, higher or lower mass parts, different bridges - ANYTHING will change the tone of your guitar (albeit sometimes in a very small way.) There is no "mahogany" tone or "koa" tone or any of that... (well sort of...) but really the guitar as a SYSTEM is why the guitar sounds the way it does.
Yep ES335 has a tone block - really it is a Les Paul with acoustic wings, should not affect the electric tone whatsoever, but it seems to - a 335 sounds different to a Les Paul, it just does.
Michael Gorman I find my Epiphone Sheraton (which is a close relative of the ES-335) to be more "percussive" than the Les Paul, making it more suited for chord work. Playing chords on the LP can really drown your bandmates.
I’m baffled by the obsession with “tone”. What sound is it people WANT that they can’t get with traditional materials and designs that aren’t addressed by pickups, effects, and amplifier?
"The guys that don't believe the material a guitar body is made of must believe that a Styrofoam or balsa wood body would sound the same as mahogany." Well, no. Even if you could build a guitar from those materials (which are, of course, not strong enough), their low density means that their damping characteristics would affect the tone. The point is that woods that are dense and strong enough to build a guitar from are little different from each other, and little different from any other material that is dense and strong enough to build a guitar from (such as acrylic). Your neck anecdote is an n=1 unblinded trial.
I found a good comment that just nails it. So here you go: " go back to school and study physics of pickups. These aren't acoustic guitars. The strings are what 'complete' the 'microphone' that is the pickups. But they are so far from being mic diaphrams it's absurd. Beside the sting sound itself (which is of already the dominant factor by far) mainly the stings are influnced by vibrations fed back into them by the bridge. Maybe the nut a little. But (next to literally zero) of 'airborne' sound energy is introduced into the strings (unless you put them in front of loud amp). Meaning the sound of neck does not 'go to the strings' just because the strings are above the neck. So the 'sound' of the neck itself is super incredibly minimal beyond concern in the tone of an electric. It may be a bit more important for acoustic, but as you may know acoustic tone is much more about the body than the neck also. Myth busted." or here is another good point: "Pickups aren't microphones, they can only pickup vibration of a magnetic metal"
I agree with you 100 %. I put a microphone inside of my Casino once and plugged the microphone into a Marshall 50w amp no tone control or effects. It sounded like I was playing inside a cave with cotton wrapped around the strings. It was interesting but I personally didn't like it. It was too muffed and muddled.
Its my opinion that anything you do to, or with, a guitar affects the sound. Whether or not these changes in sound can be perceived by the human ears is another story. So, maybe, the philosophical question really is; If you can't sense it, does it exist?
Indeed. I has a Hollow body Red Dot and promptly sold it due to the feedback problem. I do not, however, wish to confuse "tone" with sustain or feedback. F holes are pretty and they suck
i dont have proof that you are wrong.. but a small mind game.. because some people think on an e-guitar the body has absolutely no influence of the tone.. ich choose a arcustic one for that game.. now imagine a arcustic without the hole in the mid... then start with a little hole.. and drill if bigger and bigger.. no it reches the point where absolutle no top is on the guitar.. and the more experianced builders and player shopuld know that the top of an arcustig is the thing that makes the sound.. so without its basicly like a .. (dont kno the name in english.. the little metal thing to tune your guitar after.. you hit it and when you push the bottom against a table or a guitar.. or your head you can hear the A or what ever) without a body that can resonate and work as speaker.. the harder the body the longer the sustain (that you can try.. in fact i do that every time i tune my guitars).. softer then mean less sustain.. the ability to move and resonate and the sice has an influence of the volume for a pysisist its basicly.. you hammer in energy into the.. for the time i call it "tune forg"... soft materials absorb the energy and hard materials can transfer the energy when it is alowed to move (like the metal balls on strings) and if its not alowed to move it also can block a energy transfer to know what im talking abought th-cam.com/video/8RfNDOWVKgQ/w-d-xo.html so for each question.. yes it does.. even if you would only drill a 1mm hole into the body.. the question is can you hear it.. and how does it change the "tone" well till now i only talked abought the volume and the sustain.. how can you influence the tone... each object has his own frequenys it likes.. hammering on a lass bottle.. a falling spoon.. a punched tennis ball (ok exept the material gets so soft that it can absorb each energy).. so you could se a guitar as multible things.. with different frequencys.. multible stings.. neck and body.. in this case may different areas of the guirat likes different frequency because of density, material, shape... now we all know that some frequency's like others.. even our ear can tell that.. so may you shake one thing and another will also start to schake.. so at the end.. its like 10k claping theys hands to a song.. but in one in 2/4.. one in 4/4.. one in 3/4 so on a guitar you dont want to clap all the same speed.. if your body would sound on it self like A it would love to comunicate with the A string but could hate some other notes.. (on som guitars you have a strong note where you really can tell a difference in sustain and volume).. so the tone is a layer of multible freqency's.. some stronger in the base end.. some stronger in the high end.. well.. so we talkt abought a arcustic guitar.. but in reality you can apply that on every single object of the worlf.. even the world it self has his own frequency (earth 7,83Hz.. and dont believe that esoteric non sens abought a natural A and 436Hz or 440.. .. 4+3+6+4+4+0 = 21 its allt he illuminati.. lol).. so that in mind.. its obsolete to discuss abought the hard e-guitar body.. it all changes the sound.. even in frequency's you cant even hear.. so abought the f hole.. and different shapes.. its to give energy out that is traped inside of the body.. so the size of it changes the amount of energy that can escape.. also gives the top more flexibility and other frequency's that chan be changed with the form of the hole.. for those who want to understand how a arcustic body gets so loud.. or how a tone chamber also influences the body.. the top sends wafes to the back.. they conme back und in de ideal case tey double up with some others and get stronger.. so the top is the way to get the energy in the air.. the hole is the way to get the energy in the air out.. now you could thing.. if the top gets the energy to the air inside.. a closed chamber would cause that the energy in there gets more and more.. but tey colide too.. and cancel them selves out.. also the air pressure inside blocks the movement of the top.. can i calculate what happes.. when you take a hollow body e guitar and remove the f holes?.. no.. you have to try.. you have to hear.. is my argumentation purely on physics.. no.. thats the logic part of it.. i dont had to calculate or know anything abought physics.. i had a girlfriend for 3 years and her father build's arcoustic guitars.. and i love guitars and guitar playing (im more a e guitar guy) oh som will tell me now.. but its all the pickup.. yeah..where is it mounted.. .. well the last time one said the body dont move at all.. its not enough energy to hafe a influence.. i can tune my guitar without to hear anything.. because the body moves.. yes on my gibson.. and how much movement do you think are in the overtones? even the slightes scraping on the strings is recordet.. why is that.. because a good pickup translate the slightest movement into power.. thats like.. "noo your microscop can not see my finger"
My bass player detuned my guitar as a prank, so I can definitely say that an a-hole makes a difference to the tone.
Gold 😆😆
EXCELLENT!!!
You know your crowd😂
I don't even play guitar. I just came to giggle at "f-hole."
BB King had a sealed chamber 335 style guitar in an attempt to prevent feedback. 335s do have a tone block down the middle. I like the f holes because you get as a little more of the acoustic sound when you play. It probably doesn't do anything for the audience, but it does in how I play.
You're one of my favorites because you don't claim to be a genius, and I think that is admirable, please never stop!
@5:19 - "If you have empirical evidence..."
Dude - you're a master luthier. Can't you build 2 identical guitars (one with an f hole & one without) to demonstrate it? I get it, time & materials aren't free - but what a fascinating video series that would be.
No two guitars are quite alike. However, this experiment could in principle be done...build 1 guitar with no f-holes, record it being played, then cut the f-holes (don't wait too long--the wood is always changing) and record it again. Best be sure to get all the sounds you want the first go-round, though, because there is no going back.
Non - guitar related (or maybe not?) - explain the tattoos on your head - they look awesome!
Late reply. According to the guitar books I've read that explain how guitars make sound, and my own experiences, the short answer is that it depends on how the bridge, top, and inside of the guitar are working together.
An acoustic guitar chamber (dreadnought, jazz box, etc.) works by floating the bridge on the top of the guitar in some way. So, if the bridge of a given guitar floats on the top, then an F-hole will become a factor. A soundhole is required for the sound to project from the instrument; the size and shape of that hole (or series of holes, as with some Ovation guitars) determines how much sound and what frequencies are allowed out of the guitar.
Relative to the acoustic design electric guitars derive tone (by this I mean strictly frequency composition) mostly from the pickups, while the body material contributes mostly to sustain, with a small amount of tone (again, strict meaning) being affected as well. The pickups, and to some degree the bridge, are mounted firmly to the body or pickguard, which is not vibrating "as significantly" as the top of an acoustic.
Incidentally, whether the pickups AND bridge float on a top, as with many jazz boxes, will make a difference in overall sound as well, cuz the pickups will be vibrating, and thus the magnetic field will be changing position relative to the strings. This can have different effects for each guitar. Some cool jazz box designs have the bridge floating, and the pickups mounted firmly to a block that is secured to the neck and/or back of the guitar. They can even have a neck-through design, so long as the neck is solid under the pickups and holed, arched, or etc. under the spaces between pickups, and possibly from the bridge to the bottom of the guitar, to allow more sound transfer between the sides (floating the bridge is optional and likely). This is the kind of guitar I want, especially a 12-string. I derived this concept from what I learned (part of which is what I shared here), and was happy to find out that some already exist.
Disclaimer--I'm not a luthier. What I know is learned or gleaned from experts, and bundled together in my mind in order to guide my choices. It isn't rocket surgery, though.
One thing I really love about your videos is your honesty: unlike a certain other guy with the initials SG, you're not afraid to admit you don't know something and you're completely open to discovering you were wrong - Bravo!
I have a 335 and a Les Paul exact same strings and setup and I think you are correct tone is in a large part perception. The semi hollow 335 has a softer sound/tone but I believe it is in a large part its less sustain causing that effect.
Hi Ben,
It's 4:30am here in New Zealand but I felt like I had to chip in before bed.
I've been following your videos for a while now; they're really interesting. One of my favourite things to do with guitars is to implant proper coil pickups into acoustic guitars. My favourite way to visualise what happens when the top of a guitar moves is to draw upon my trade as a sound engineer, and think of the hollow body/cavity as a speaker cabinet.
In speaker cabinets you have the speaker itself, which requires that it can move back and forth, and a bunch of air inside a box. If the box is sealed then it makes it harder for the speaker to move; when it pushes back it's fighting a higher air pressure and when it pushes forward it's fighting a lower air pressure. This is why we port the boxes. Ports are those big round holes you see, often in the back of speaker cabs or in the front of a lot of guitar amps. Ports allow just the right amount of air to move back and forth in and out of the box. They can be tuned to change the impedance of the air and to change the resonant frequency/ies of the speaker itself.
Acoustic guitars- while being a little different in their construction- function in much the same way; a fairly rigid back and sides and a thin, flexible top ported with air holes allow the top to move back and forth like the speaker cone. Ovation guitars are my favourite example of this; their back and sides are one big comfy piece of plasticy stuff that's rigid as hell while the delicate top moves back and forth. The strings are, of course, attached at the point where the top has the greatest flexibility. The really fun part about all this is that it doesn't matter where the port/soundhole is located, as long as it allows enough air to move back and forth. Ovation would rather have the part where the soundhole is usually located be a nice bit of thin wood instead, so they move the soundholes to the edges. I've not measured it but I have a feeling that if you added up the area of a standard Ovation's soundholes it'd come out roughly the same as a regular acoustic.
335s (you were right, they've got a block through the middle and chambers either side) and some thinline or chambered electrics have thin enough tops that playing them unplugged can sound really nice. Porting those cavities will allow the top greater movement and may make the guitar feel lighter or livelier, or at least that's what I've found in my experience. The 335s (and copies etc) that I've played sounded a bit deader when their f-holes were taped over (commonly done to reduce on-stage feedback) but that might just be my placebic mind.
The part that really interets me about f-holes is that rather than being just round holes, they've got lots of little fiddly bits that would vibrate much more readily than the rest of the top. They're much less connected than the rest of the wood. Maybe they could really accentuate some hidden harmonics?
As to the sound of the instrument when it's plugged in, I think it does affect the tone but only a little. Most of what's happening is an intimate conversation between your strings and your pickups. On this guitar th-cam.com/video/MYdPDRPa7OQ/w-d-xo.html
I found that leaving the cutaway open kinda made the instrument feel flappier, both acoustically and through the amp. In this case it helped because any extra detail I could get from three strings was awesome.
Anyway I've taken too much of your time already. Keep up the good work!
i've watched it! cool.
In the debate over tone, I think a lot of people grossly underestimate the role the fingers of the musician play.
CorneliusSneedley There is a whole chain of sound from the strings to the foot pedals to the rack mounted stuff to the amp to the microphone to the mixer to the sound engineer to the PA system to the room the band is playing in. If somebody was playing in a club with a full band and the guy changed from a real '59 Les Paul to another guitar with humbuckers, I don't think the audience would know the difference. That includes the guitarist if somebody else was playing his rig. Bernie Marsden did that with Joe Bonamassa. Joe played Bernie's '59 Gibson and Bernie was playing a $650 guitar at a concert. The difference in sound could have been attributed to pick attack or cabinet speakers. Rockabilly guitarists use those F hole guitars just for show because it's traditional. Give them a solid body and nobody will know there was a change.
orlock20 I'm not really sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me. One thing that is for sure, though. Big body guitars are not just for show.
I'm generally of the opinion that woods, chambering and construction may make some minor differences to clean signal, but once you're playing life through with an amp mic'd up to a PA with a sound guy who's done his own EQ of your tone that doesn't make any difference, especially to an audience who don't care what wood your guitar is made of. It's kind of like wearing lucky socks or underwear - it might make a difference to you personally but the audience don't really care.
Whether or not the audience can hear it is missing a very significant point; if the player 'hears' or 'feels' it, he/she will play differently, and that will affect what the audience hears. As it happens I think the wood used and the construction methods employed do make a difference, and the louder you play and the more gain is used, the more the 'secondary' harmonics (resulting from the initial string vibration passing into the body and reflecting back to the strings) will be evident. But hey - we all have different views, and I'm good with all of them, because they're yours.
It's a complete holistic system. It's what matters to the player that counts, the audience aren't the ones playing the guitar
I have a Givson 215 Standard Spanish F-Hole guitar which is Loud. I put on a pickup but it gives off a lot of feedback. Should i put on electric guitar strings and tape up the holes with cardboard?
BB King asked gibson to not have the f holes on a 335 because he said it had less feed back while still having the 335 warmth. go out to a store that has a 335 and a lucille and check it out.
Are f holes not there to help with feedback? As they would allow the vibrations to be released easier than through the top. I was always under that impression.
Crimson Custom Guitars I have a question: I am thinking of building my first guitar and because I have a lot of spare cherry, and I am wondering if it is a good material to use, for maybe the body of the guitar? Thank you very much!
A tone chamber also reduces the amount of pick attack (vs solid body). Very very slightly, but it could be a variable to prevent ice pick like treble frequencies.
Ben! I'm trying to find the video you did where you talked about using neodymium magnets for the cavity cover and specifically removing it with a larger magnet. I tried it but can't make it work. Can you direct me to the relevant video where you demonstrate it
mistershankley Hey! I think that would be in the Clarity series in the guild, at least that is the guitar it was first done on.. I may well have mentioned it in the podcast at some point but can't remember when... um, tell you what. CVheck out the next podcast to be uploaded, I'll go record it now, should be live in a few hours. :)
I've seen a guy do a comparison between I think a strat and some strat guts mounted to a wood crate. No discernible difference in sound between guitar electronics mounted to a crate and those mounted into the guitar body.
The string and magnet don't seem to care what they are mounted to as long as they can make electric current.
.Sustain is related to how rigid your setup is and the strings. So it kind of comes down to your strings, bridge, nut and scale.Your pickups, amp and strings create your tone.
I am an expert because I have watched videos so you can take this as gospel.
No, really that's just my guess.
Waving a tree or a 2x4 over a magnet doesn't seem to create electricity like a wire does so I can't see how an electric guitar sound could be influenced by the wood it's mounted to other than how well it's mounted. Only the cost to the builder ( and durability of the guitar ) is influenced by the type of wood. You don't want it breaking half when you tune it up to pitch.
Someone would have to do some kind of test with two freakishly identical setups on two different guitar bodies. Swapping all the electronics and strings from one to the other so the exact same parts are used on both bodies.
Ultimately who the hell cares? If you can play and have a guitar to play on, COOL! Have fun.
An ES335 without F holes would be the BB King Lucille guitar. I'm not aware of any other significant changes. Unfortunately I'm also not aware of how different they sound!
As to the video showing that one guitar placed on top of another and the tone not changing... There's another video he did showing that sustain varies with different neck/body joints. I can't see how it can be argued that the wood used doesn't alter the sound but that the neck joint does.
One of the more entertaining podcasts you've produced! Kudos!
Hi Ben Can't wait to see my Guitar Making an appearance on a Pod Cast ? Kind Regards, Robert
Ben , I totally agree with your analysis. Just a quick comment on the Gibson 335. I has a middle separation creating two cavities. However, the older Gibson 330 does not, its body is completely hollow. The latest is more sensitive to feedback , and requires neck adjustments as the body is less stiff. It is difficult though to compare the sound of the 330 and the 335 as the 330 has P90s and the 335 has PAF humbuckers.
I love looking at these old videos to see how different and you were and nervous. LOL Its awesome
The chambered Gibson studio acoustically I have beats like a heart. I had thoughts of f hole mod to save acoustic purchase.
What about Bb King's Lucille compared to one with an F hole?
If your accoustic sound is altered, your electric sound is altered. You have vibrations transmitted into air which behaves as a damping factor on the resonant components. This is more noticeable in the decay of a note as the harmonics that sound the longest are the ones that are damped least.
Unfortunately we need to look at two models for sound transmission, a notional solid body and an air pump. The latter only occurs with a relatively thin panel forms a wall of an enclosed chamber. F hole size and shape will affect the efficiency of your air pump. Relatively thick panels make for a woefully inefficient air pump. Small chambers have higher resonant frequencies than large chambers. This is well documented fluid mechanics. It's the same maths that governs the porting of a speaker cabinet. 18mm of plywood or MDF can resonate visibly when agitated with hundreds or thousands of watts. There's maths for this. It's the same maths that applies to vehicle exhausts, particularly on two stroke engines that use an expansion chamber to increase the effective compression ratio. Get googling. Small 'weight relief' chambers are quite inefficient in an otherwise solid body but an accoustic guitar or a violin is an efficient sound pump.
Taping a sound hole may not give a complete answered as the tape will transmit high frequencies like a drum skin.
I know that the soundholes make a huge difference on violins. I read an article on that an engineering website. Some guys from the MIT tested around 150 violins. They discovered that the master builders like stradivari etc. found out over time that it was better to use narrow f-holes. The thinner they get, the faster the air and the louder the sound of the violin. A thicker back was also helpful to get more reflection.I don't think it makes any difference with small cavitys or without a thin top than can swing. I'd say it makes a slight difference on semi-hollow guitars.
www.ingenieur.de/Fachbereiche/Mess-Prueftechnik/Violinen-akustische-Kraft-Die-Schallloecher-entscheidend
Here is a link to an english article which also provides the link to the full MIT paper:
boingboing.net/2015/03/09/why-violin-makers-adopted-the.html
If you found that helpful...how about a discount on some of your tools?
Oh and think about something different for nut work than that mulit-thingy.
I haven't read that article in a while, thanks for reminding me, it is truly fascinating! Drop me an email through the www.crimsonguitars.com/contact-us and I'll sort you out..
In the meantime what do you have in mind for the nut slotting tool.. And more importantly what's wrong with the current one :(
+onpsxmember The f-ness of the hole is just an aesthetic touch, though, on anything that isn't constructed in broadly the same way as a violin. As much as anything, the orientation, length and spacing of the f-holes (along with the bass bar, belly and waist, naturally) control the vibrational modes of the top (allowing for oil-can, longitudinal and lateral resonances to account for the full tonal and overtone range of the instrument, which are in turn transferred to the back via the soundpost). Those parts of the equation simply aren't there on a semi-hollow/semi-solid electric; you can concentrate exclusively on air flow and chamber resonances. But let's face it, it's early days for ways to effectively model what's really going on (you don't quite need a month of Cray X-MP time anymore, but the solid and fluid dynamics still aren't trivial, and physically building a few hundred instruments to test hypotheses is not cost-effective), and most of what we're working with is several centuries of trial and error combined with traditional preferences, prejudices and a few wild guesses.
Crimson Custom Guitars
I'm happy that you found my comment usefull. *First you can help me a lot if you would answer your mails depending my pledge via kickstarter and my problem with using the guild membership. I'm trying to get an answer for more than a week to access my master apprentice account. I wrote you about certain CNC machines and we made a deal via paypal ouside of kickstarter.*To the nut slotting tool:The wide variation of blades are nice, but maybe more for some guitar tech on the run than an luthier in his workshop. I'd prefer it if the blades (which are more saw-like) would be in a little box with a full scale handle to mount one of the blades from the box. I know small precision files are expensive, but the way they form a nut is just different than a saw. Its possible to shape the "channel". At the moment I think about getting files from DICK in germany or Vallorbe from france with the exact wide of the slots ("Scharnier"-files for locksmiths). I know there are still some smaller file makers but its hard to find them. Your tool is a good compromise but improveable. At the moment i want to do it that way to hone my skills. Later it would be best to programm it with a CAM/CAD-Software to make slots exactly for the string that will be used. I hope your voice didn't get higher^^ and everything went fine.
If anyone here can direct me to small, very good file makers in germany or europe, send me a message.
+essellar The size and shape of the F hole is used to tune the instrument. Check out violin building videos. Besides a lot of arch tops are hollow, and even ones with tone blocks in them are also pretty hollow. A semi hollow guitar sounds totally different to the same model that is a solid body. Check out a tele vs a thin line, a PRS semi vs a custom 24 and so on. I have a hollow body strat and a hollow body tele i.e. they have a hollow body with a tone block. The sound is totally different to my solid bodied tele and strat.
+onpsxmember I would have thought that on an electric guitar - which makes the sound through electro-magnetic pickups sensing the strings - that hollowness will affect the sustain but not the fundamental timbre.
Question.... I've found sustain go out the window when the guitar is pressed to you body, cause the vibrations are absorbed. I think tone is most effected by mass. Less mass less mass for vibrations to move.... very interesting question. I use my tele thinline mostly for practicing without an amp. It is 4 times as loud as my solid alder tele.... so hmmm
Hey BEN!! I LOVE YOUR CHANNEL and the content. I have a good question. How can you achieve the pure jazzy-sound of a hollowbody with a solid body instrument?
I have been sold or blown away by Jens Ritter's "Princess Isabella " guitar...I want a sound similar to that. But I dont know where to begin....I'm thinking of a kit build. Does Crimson offer Jazzmaster body kits??
Yep. Pretty much sums up a lot of the myth vs hype vs evidence.
How about a fiddle with a round sound hole?
Oh by the way I found this one on the mighty internet. I'm not sure if it's legit but seemed enough for me. For "Tl;dr"ers, "Why did violins slowly develop f-shaped sound-holes? Because it makes them more acoustically powerful than their ancestors, which had holes shaped liked a circle -- as a team of MIT scientists recently concluded". As for the source: boingboing.net/2015/03/09/why-violin-makers-adopted-the.html
I think your point is well illustrated by the Gibson Lucille, the model inspired by BB King. Mr King used to play a ES345 but the F holes were creating too much feedback (even if there is a center block) so he covered the holes with something (don't know the details). Eventually Gibson developed a model that was exactly the same as the 345 (or 355) just with the top without holes. And it sounds the same
I just watched this podcast and it’s an amazing concept that I think you should dig into, to my knowledge, the acoustic generated by the f hole provides with certain reaction when the instrument is exposed to the vibrations of the sound from the amplifier itself, meaning: the sound that enters again the cavity will react to the material of the instrument and cause different reactions depending on the position of the hole, in a feedback type of reaction, the closest it is to the bridge the higher pitch will resonate with the instrument itself.... please, let me know what you think
Jim Mullen covered his f holes it didn't radically alter the tone but it did a lot to reduce feedback while keeping that Hollowbody electric tone
Projection of sound? About 5 yrs ago i went to my local shop to buy strings,and a dobro was sat facing the door i always facied 1! I bought it amazing! Went home an played then gave it to my dad, who since passed away and bought a les paul 2015 with cash he left! when i played something missing? it came alive when he played? Its pushing sound forward, bridge, buiscut, cone,body through its many holes! The body shields the player from certain frequencies, harmonics? He said same thing? nice to hear it.???
the fender thinline strat brought me here
What if it has two f holes?
Like the chambered Telecaster that Harley Benton makes.
cant get my brain around this one . what vibrates more ; a hollow log or a solid log .An f hole is supposedly to transmit sound out towards the ear like an acoustic guitar sound hole ;the hollow log with one side more like a drum head w strings .This is best recorded with a mike in front of the guitar not inside it .The sold body and pickup is about sting vibration not sending sound outward from a resonating chamber .so the f hole or hollow body projects sound energy outward ? not keeping it in the solid mass that would register more in the strings and pup ? hence forth the 335 sounds not as blistering and clear as the les paul ?
I would say that a more specific question is perception. The majority of us do not have the money to create a specific tone. It comes down to what feels comfortable, has the features you are looking for and is affordable. You can always upgrade pickups, the nut and electronics.
Bravo! I've always thought the f-holes were the secret to the Stradivarius! Good to know a professional Luthier is willing to examine the topic.
I am with you in what you say, it is an interesting subject. Let me say I have a solid body Tele with maple neck and board and a Thinline Tele with single F-hole, maple neck and board. Same pickups in each. The Thinline definitely has a different 'sound' and sustain, it is very much brighter than the solid body and less punchy, all as you might expect. One doesn't sound better than the other, just different.
I'm so sick of this whole tonewood debate because most people immediately turn in a dead end street... I'll explain myself. The problem is that you can't prove or disprove if choice of wood makes a difference, because no 2 pieces of wood are the same, so you can't do an accurate test. But the debate isn't about wood at all, it's about whether the density (and other qualities) of a material (ANY MATERIAL) has an impact on the tone when used in a guitar. So, they have plenty of plastics and stuff, which someone could use to make a few identical guitars... . If we did that with a few different materials (differing from each other like different types of wood would, different density, different elasticity, all that stuff...) it would allow us to test this properly. Hell, I have a luthite Ibanez! Someone could make one with some hollow chambers inside to see what it sounds like. It would probably all sound like crap, but that's not the point. It would be possible to measure the differences in output. If it would make a difference with synthetics or some other material that can be easily replicated, it certainly would with wood. I can't understand why no one has ever tried this, there must be some asshole with a large enough 3D printer to be able to pull this of!
Simon de rycke
It's something I have studied with regard to building a high end record deck and tonearm. Except in reverse, because you want to remove vibration, rather than encourage it. It's a very, very complex subject because vibrations reflect at material boundaries and generally don't behave in an intuitive manner.
My solution was to say " I'm not clever enough to understand this " and give up :-)))
Anglo Spanish Racing I'm not, at all, trying to get rid of the vibrations. I am merely suggesting to use a material (any material or combination of materials) that can be easily reproduced, to get rid of the whole 'every piece of wood is different' problem in this debate. The output will be measured and any differences between different materials will be discovered. If there aren't, well, there won't be in wood either. You don't have to understand everything to be able to test something, that's what science is all about and always has been.
Sorry if I came over as being flippant. You would need a spectrum analyser to record all the harmonics of the sound of course, but that 's easy enough at audio frequencies nowadays with PC based oscilloscopes .
I suspect that you won't change too many minds with a piece of research like this, a lot of people don't understand scientific method.
And also there is a lot of pseudoscience involved in audio...check out 'audiophile' cables if you ever want a laugh...or to cry :-)))
Anglo Spanish Racing I'm pretty sure there actually isn't any other means of testing this. If people don't accept the results they might be just unwilling to accept them because they lose face or money. I don't care about image - I care about the truth. And also, nuances. I would love to prove any camp wrong, because they both are sure damned convinced they are 100% right. I appreciate Ben's wariness about the subject.
type in: Olaf Diegel, (though the guitars have wood block to hold the pickups and wooden neck)
Even though i dont like the sound, i dont know if its because the guy/s playing , the amp or whatever, its still interesting to see that unconventional looking guitars(and how they are made)
Advice i have followed:
*Want to build a guitar?
Put together a kit,
*Want to know the difference between set neck and bolt on? Plug the holes, scrape the finish, shim it up, glue it on.* First Guitar?
Don’t sweat the details.
First full build. Only used a ruler to lay out frets and intonation.
Set neck tele kit has one of a kind feel.
*plan to build a solid oak flying V. Made from a kitchen table found in a shed in a house abandoned in 1970’s
Why do hollow-body guitars (335 type) as a whole, seem to have "feedback" issues, more than solid-body guitars with the same pups? Especially when they are around other amps and guitars?
shielding is harder
@@josearaujo8616
I've worked on several and I've never seen any shielding? This is not a trick question.... I don't know the answer(s) but I'd like to...?
@@markbuckallew4689 feedback is generated because of the magnetic interference, that you block through shielding, which is easy to do in a solid body with copper or aluminum tape in the pickup cavities (humbuckers don't need them) and control cavities, you can also use conductive paint, that you then connect to the ground.
In all electronics you should have a Faraday cage to avoid interference , which is basically a metal case or grid grounded surrounding the electronics. On a hollow body you should paint the inner body with conductive paint, or use metallic tape, before gluing the top and bottom (the hole inside of the body will act like a faraday cage). If the body is already assembled you should put some aluminum tape in the inside the max you can reach, specially inside the top and bottom (paint the tape black so you can't see it through the f holes).
You can try to build a small box with carton, rap it with aluminum tape, be sure its connected to the ground, and then fit it through the pickup cavities or f-holes and secure it so it so it covers the controls and touches the metal tape in the inside of the top, its hard to do. The final possible solution is to wrap all pots and controls with aluminum tape in the outside, connect the outside of the tape to the ground on the pot and then mount them.
Always use shielded wire... and make sure all the pickups are well potted
Hope it works
@@josearaujo8616
Damn...... absolutely great explanation of how to protect your pup's and electronics from 60 cycle hum.
I'm actually a luthier, so I'm familiar with the different shielding methods and the reasons why, etcetera.
I've built guitars with and without shielding (whatever the new owner wants...) it just doesn't seem to be the issue it used to be, unless you want feedback on purpose.....
I didn't mean to get a thread started on shielding, but it turned out to be good. Players could learn a lot from reading your explanation, seriously. I've just got some friends in a band and one plays an Epi Dot and sometimes it just doesn't need to be in the room? Nice talking with you dude...
@@markbuckallew4689 great talking to you too. I'm no luthier but I have an interest in sound, what is more curios to me is why don't many luthiers shield the hollow body before gluing the parts, and why don't guitar parts like pots and switches come with a shielding case from factory... even expensive pre-wired pick guards don't do it...
with the covering up the soundhole on a 335, B.B.King's Lucille model is identical to a 345 (335 with a varitone) but without the f-holes so someone could always do a comparison between the 2 for a bit. would be a lot more conclusive than testing it with paper/tape over the f-holes.
I know less than zero about guitar building, but feel well qualified to tackle this issue. Any change you make to a guitar body will, in some way, affect the tone/sound/other characteristics of the instrument. Whether this effect is measurable with less than a metric asston of lab gear is another story.
I would concur with Ben's honest, albeit rambling-rose explanation.
That said and Ben did mention this, that it all depends upon what type of instrument. GIven that the electronics and signal chain are responsible for around 90% of the voicing of any solid, semi-solid/semi-acoustic electric instruments when amplified, his explanation makes perfect sense.
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I've got two semi-hollow guitars, a PRS S2 Cu22 (one 'f' hole) and a Daisy Rock 12 string (one 'f' hole). I also had a solid PRS SE Cu24 which constructionwise was very similar to its stablemate, both were fitted necks, mahogany bodied, with the S2 having a flamed maple capping and the SE with a flamed veneer over mahogany body) and I swapped over the pups and assoc electronics (both G&B's, but differening impedances) on these guitars, apart from the S2 being slightly easier on the fretboard, the electrified voicing of the SE was almost identical to the S2 when fitted with the S2's pups... Likewise, the obverse with the S2. However, unamplified, when strummed, the S2 rang slighly louder than the SE solid, so there was a subtle difference that maybe attributed to the solid maple capping and 'resonance chamber' (BEN...), or lack thereof.
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The Daisy Rock has completely different characteristics, as it is fitted with 'Filtertron' style pups and constructed in boxwood (as far as I can tell...), screw-fixed neck. I suspect however, that there would be little difference in amplified voicing if it were constructed without a resonance chamber or 'f' hole.
I would say that the only real sound difference between a hollow body electric and a solid body electric with the same pickups is when you get a feedback effect when playing loud on the hollow body at times which is is kind a nice, like Grand Funk Railroad.
Ben, colliding industries! I lent someone my loud speaker design book a long time ago and never got it back but the concept is your home stereo speaker box must be sized to the speaker driver while the existence and size of any holes in the case like ports (or f-holes) are very important. That speaker is the last step in getting famous guitar tone from the player to the listener. I strongly suspect that nearly all semi-acoustic electric guitars never had any formal sizing done on them. Acoustic guitars might have done this but probably still informally "this guitar is loud, that one is quiet, let's make more like the first!" The "port" in the acoustic guitar is sized for the builder's hand not the sound that comes out. A pair of links to Internet-based Speaker Enclosure Design (www.bcae1.com/spboxnew2.htm , audio.claub.net/software/kougaard/ubmodel.html). I think it could be very interesting to apply these calculations to the design of an acoustic guitar to maximize its output - a testing platform could make a rectangular guitar like a speaker enclosure. How small might the port need to be to work optimally for sound transmission? How big might the box-guitar need to be?
I like the acoustic sound that comes out as I play. The audience doesn't here it but i do and it kind of makes me play better.
That thumbnail is sheer bliss.
In an hermetic chamber, the trapped air play a role in the way the guitar vibrates : vibrations transmitted thru air to the back plate and echoes from that back to the top plate maybe. The wood "vibrating" characteristics interferes with the 'air' elastic and somewhat dampening characteristics and gives a resulting vibration.
With a "f hole", the air is less of a factor that acts like a 'spring'-'dampener' into the chamber. The top plate of the guitar then vibrates with less interference coming from the trapped air. Would the sound then be 'sharper', 'woodier' ?
The "f hole" is a limited area of cut out on the top plate. It would let the air travelling thru it in two directions in a controlled way (depending on the hole position on the body and the opening area). Just like if we, humans, were trying to get some air in and out with a straw. Therefore, the top plate would vibrate more freely. We would hear more of the wood tonal characteristics ? But not as if the 'f hole' was a big hole letting the air total freedom of movement. The result would be somewhere between a hermetic chamber and a "ported" chamber giving the wanted tonal characteristics. Therefore, the 'f hole' would be a "tuning" characteristic (position, shape, area of opening).
If the top plate is 0.25" or 6mm thick, not sure it does much though... I might be wrong too.
But still, any 'resulting' wood vibration (from neck, head stock, body), will necessarily have a effect on the 'relative' movement between the strings and the pickups... That's what makes a difference from one electric guitar to another one (for the same pickup model and positions. A stratocaster for instance). The importance of the wood tone effect may not be as much as we would like it to be but it's there ! Tuning the right body wood with the right neck woods could create a hell of a great tone machine...
(ps. it's a mechanical engineer input; nothing more. But anyways, don't listen to those who say the wood has no importance !)
BB KING did so in his 335 Lucille when he order it to Gibson he did not wanted the f holes for the feedback efect and he allegedly found a more consistant and longer sustain so he reported . He used to cover the F holes before with tape , but he never ever talked about tone specificaly only about feedback and sustain he also played with ligtht gauge strings a rather distict move away from other blues man of the time and early ,this made him more ductile and capable of extreme bending the strings that characterized his stile .
other variation over the f holes made by gibson was the 335 TRINI LOPEZ that has diamonds instead of f holes and a firebird like headstock (that would be an improve over the traditional gibson headstok?) but its just for looks i guess
I find it weird that you,re talking about these differences but aren,t sure about the tone block in 335s.Most players in the sixties knew that 330s feed back more with no tone block. The 6120 Gretsches from the eighties or nineties feed back ,ie the body vibrates at volume compared to the tonepost altered later ones.
My experience, playing full, semi, tone chamber f holes, and solid. Comparing a tone chamber to solid is subtle.
The tone chambered is less massive and reduces the higher frequency, (easily absorbed by the body) but adds a different feedback frequency to the top end.
Solid, the high frequency is not lost but the harmonic feedback is lower.
Side by side, I choose a chambered guitar with a solid state amp over a solid guitar with a tube amp.
My personal opinion, endorsed by no one but me.
Fact: tone and resonance are affected by mass, a solid mass vs a mass with cavities or is more porous has less mass, and thus a change in tone as well as resonance. This is also affected by the density of the mass, as the tighter, the molecular structure of a solid; the greater the density, and thus producing higher frequency or pitch. a perfect example of this is the difference between a wood instrument and one made from brass, silver or aluminum. The beauty of wood is that the variations of timber effect all of these measures yet, unlike metal, has the molecular resonance that vibrates differently than say copper. This is why a Stradivarius violin is made hollow from Italian alpine Englemann spruce and produced balance tone, pitch, and resonance. Whereas a steel guitar has tin top and creates a vibrating resonance that has a particular twang to it.So the correct answer to the question is yes a sound hole affects tone and resonance, yet you seem to address whether based on the volume of mass and thus density, can it be detected by the average human ear when played acoustically or when amplified. A fun site, www.physicsclassroom.com/class/sound/Lesson-5/Resonance
books.google.com/books?id=TfE5AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA388&lpg=PA388&dq=mathmatic+equation+for+tone,+pitch+and+resonance?&source=bl&ots=hp46K1NIaq&sig=AzNR8Ux62U1u5aAXKGGWYG9Dmkc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjXm4rzipDZAhVB9GMKHfZIBYoQ6AEIODAC#v=onepage&q=mathmatic%20equation%20for%20tone%2C%20pitch%20and%20resonance%3F&f=false
As far as an unplugged electric that HAS an f hole it WILL be louder ONLY acoustically. So if you need a guitar that has acoustic parts and electric parts for recording or maybe live but you only wanna bring 1 guitar its possible to get that sound. I would suggest going full semi hollow or hollow though and not the one little f hole for that but hey, do what you want. You could get an f hole, cut out the back for a plate, put black microfiber over the hole and have a little storage pocket for picks tuners and gear, cut the hole the same shape and size as a premade plate and bam.
From a physics perspective, different woods simply must affect the string's vibration patterns. The vast majority (IMO as a physicist and an audiophile) of tone nuances are subtle. Indeed, they are very subtle. As an opinionated picker of nits, I am certain that the average person cannot differentiate most of these differences. Further, once you plug a guitar into an amplifier and move the volume knob up from zero, all bets are off. Dime (turn up to 10) any amp and people who can speak with authority about the tone wood nuances on display are about as rare as tits on a bicycle.
People who disagree with me on this subject about as annoying as art critics.
it depends on how "classic" your tone is, for example I have come across tons of people who say the wood of the body makes no difference, even with an acrylic body, but they are all playing instruments with a maple neck, which make up a lot of your sound, if you go around trying more exotic woods that have a difference response to the mass produced instrument, then the difference seems more noticeable.
for example, an alder body with a maple neck has little difference to a mahogany body with a maple neck, I recently build a Lingue neck (local hardwood) with a Laurelia body (local hardwood too) and cumaru fretboard (brazilian tropical hardwood) and the sound is extremely different to the guitar where I took the pickups from, can show you a sound clip if you want.
No they do not because strings aren't attached to the wood, they are vibrating supported by the bridge and the nut. Also physics tells us that me more energy is loss through the body due to lack of support of the bridge, the worst it is. So you can actually make a good case against resonant woods.
Actually magnetic pickups would sound on vacuum... while you would hear no sound from the strings you would actually have sound through the speakers.
You have many factors at play here, not least of which is the effect of the logarithmic nature of amplitude. The more energy is put into the strings and transfers into the body the more important the cavities and associated apertures are. You can apply the principle of the infinite baffle vs ported/open design from speaker construction. Played acoustically there will not be much difference in a solid body guitar with an f hole (or any kind of aperture), but when the guitar is attached to an amplifier and speaker the total energy available will tend to cause the aperture to resonate at a particular frequency. The tuning of that frequency becomes crucial, and it explains why the very loudest bands tend to use solid body guitars, although the closed cavities of a Les Paul produce a resonance that some find irresistible. The thickness of the walls of the cavity are also crucial to the transference of the resonance. So, many factors at play, none of which will matter a damn if your bridge is a piece of crap!
how do i know my bridge is a piece of crap?
BigEdWo Well, it has to serve the purpose you want it to serve! But if the bridge isn't doing the job of transferring the vibration from the string to the body and back again you will lose both tone and sustain. As a general rule the more metal is in the bridge the brighter it will sound and the more sustain you'll get. I've seen bridges that were actually loose, held in place mostly by the tension of the strings. You can radically alter the sound by making the bridge more efficient. But the point is, no matter how wonderful the tone wood or the chambering, if the bridge and the neck aren't fixed properly you won't hear the difference.
many people say the bridge is the most important thing when it comes to tone. there is probably something to it.
i'm not so sure if it is the vibration thing. in the end i don't know.
BigEdWo It's about the way the string vibration reaches the body and then transfers back through the bridge to the string. If the body was made of foam (impossible, I know) then the string sound would die very quickly. The other key zone is the neck joint. Any looseness there will affect the sound. The most efficient neck design is the bolt on, followed by a glued joint. A through neck will sustain less. That's because density is critical at that point. The metal screws and neck plate of a bolt on neck provide the most efficient way to transfer the vibrations from the neck to the body, Glue has more density than wood, which is why the through neck design is the least efficient. So, cavities and holes come a long way down the list of things that affect the sound, but once you have everything else sorted they can add something (whether pleasant or not).
BigEdWo Anything in the signal chain has an impact on tone: strings, bridge, nut, etc.
should be a simple question " what is the best way to fix an electric guitar neck that was split by installing a neck with to long of neck bolt screws fender squire neck issue from using shorter neck screws in squire necks vs fender long bolt on necks
The further away from the string a body exhaust hole the less string wave interruption meaning more sustain and natural tone.
I think after he would get that info from some one he would post a video with a name: "Tonal difference of F-hole from an A-hole" Of course Im not implying you Crimson guitars
PanzarMetal there are both f-holes and a-holes in every comment section. The difference is subtle and disputable. But they're out there.
Actually, listen to most youtube comparison videos on pedals, guitars and pickups and nothing seems to make a difference. Unfortunately, its all in the fingers.
very true... best videos to see the actual difference in gear is with mics. Apart from the slightly different warmer sound (IMHO mostly due to pre-amps) and output levels, there is almost absolutely no difference in mic tones, nothing you can't just equalize easily.
I ran this test with an acoustic guitar (Maton): I recorded the same tune twice and tried to keep all variables as similar as possible, the only difference was to plug the soundhole with a Feedback buster once. It was nearly impossible to distinguish the two recordings let a lot tell which sounded better. My conclusion: pickups, preamps and electronics contribute heavily to the tone of an instrument and can easily outweigh the mechanical/material side.
Covering the hole is a much smaller difference than if the hole is cut at all or not. Covering it doesn't make the top any stiffer. Also, as said before, while electronics have a much bigger part in the sound, they don't have a similar effect as wood and structure. It's about how the sound decays after you strum and how feedback sustains different frequencies.
Is there a video where he discusses his head tattoos? I know this is a luthiers information channel, but people MUST be interested, they are rather striking, and it would be a nice insight into the man behind crimson guitars
I had one of those Krap amps once - they're going for a fortune on e-bay now that Dan Auerbach has added a velour plush-button one to his rig. Swapped mine for a Peavey Bandit - schoolboy error!
i have a solid tele and a tele with an f hole and they do sound a lot different but i think you could only tell on a clean sound i think they sound nicer but not really better ,to many variables unless someone made two guitars out of the same lump of wood and compared them.
MIT did a study on the f hole. Made a big difference. It was specifically the violin but interesting nonetheless. It of course doesn't prove anything with regards to a standard configuration electric guitar. One or more pickups mounted on the front of the instrument directly under the strings.
I've heard differences in demos of solid Les Pauls, modern weight relief, and fully chambered. The sampling of instruments though was one of each. So, not really enough of a sample size to be statistically significant. I can say that the difference was greater though than what I've noticed from simply different samples of the same instrument.
news.mit.edu/2015/violin-acoustic-power-0210
And if I can say, don't be afraid to tell people what you can hear. If they don't want to believe you or can't hear it themselves don't worry about it. It's just that people who think "everything sounds the same" for some reason want to bully those who can hear a difference. "You're stupid, you're brainwashed, etc..." Yet these same people think that a digitally modeled amp or cab can sound like the real thing and nobody calls them out. It's like, you're happy then that's fine.
A strat doesn't sound like a Les Paul. Even if you put humbuckers on the Strat or split the pickups on the Les Paul. A PRS S2 single cut doesn't sound like a Les Paul either. Nor do the custom 22 sound like a Strat regardless what pickup configuration you buy.
Sorry to digress but it really bothered me watching you so painstakingly choosing your words instead of just answering the question so as not to incur the wrath of these individuals. The most interesting takeaway for me with the MIT study is it's very likely the renaissance era instrument makers relied solely on their ears to come up with the most efficient design for the hole on the soundboard (the f hole). Definitely no computer models or anechoic chambers and reference mics.
Every single thing, no matter how big or small, will effect the tone. It's really as simple as that.
Even a single grain of sand in the pickup cavity will change the tone.
I'm more than happy to admit that I can't personally hear the difference between a red nitro or a green nitro finish, for example, nor the grain of sand in the cavity, but I'm definitely not going to outwardly assert that there is unequivocally no difference between the two.
Moreover, I'm sure as shit (this is the important bit) not going to start telling people that they can't hear the difference either! I might be right, but then again, they might have better hearing or judgement than I do! In those situations I've found it best to err on the side of caution, to avoid seeming like a total muppet :)
Will Turner
Well some people just want to believe in the differences.
There are a load of blind test videos with new and old strats with different finishes. Noone could tell them apart just by hearing.
Most people don't hear better, but different. Search for psychoacoustics.
If I play my telecaster unplugged it has a sound. When I plug it into my amp on a clean setting I can still hear much of that sound. If I play my 335 unplugged it too has a sound (very different from the telecaster). Again when I plug it into my amp on a clean setting I can still hear much of its sound. Draw whatever conclusions you will from my not so very scientific experiment but according to my ears the electrics are only partly responsible.
no they don't. Play your tele plugged into the amp, with noise canceling headphones, and the neck supported in a wall to make it resonate more. When you move the neck away from the wall the acoustic resonance will change but the sound coming through the amp doesn't. You can also put nylon strings in your tele, and play it and you will hear absolutely no sound coming out from the amp.
Resonance makes no difference in magnetic fields.
Anybody build an acoustic with f hole with center hole and or one that is not arch top but a flat top? Or anybody make or build an acoustic electric gibson es345?
As an electronics technician,and previously years ago a child,i would say density affects damping,understand then what what hard or soft materials do with respect to damping of vibration which in this case are sound waves ,you will have an easier time understanding what a single monolithic material will do,or a combination of hard and soft materials will do,almost like dual rate springs or rubber coated steel handle tools that strike blows but DON'T TRANSMIT THE SHOCK-"WAVE"- TO THE USERS HAND,HARD AND SOFT.
This is why i wish to god i had used some form of natural hard glue like hide or fish glue than a synthetic plastic glue when i glued the neck of a strat copy in to place,because i know the plastic synthetic glue will act as a damper and soak up some of the higher frequency tone out of my axe,i can do that with a f"£kin pot and cap tone network to suit my taste on the day.
Ask someone who changed their triumph spitfire suspension bushes from rubber to polyurethane what the effect is,smooth vibrational damping with a squidgy responce,to a harder bumpier ride with sharper more positive response all round,someone like me perhaps.And alloy blocks to clamp steering racks that give more steering hold than rubber bushes that allow some side to side sway that needs correcting at high speed,the soft material damps but soaks vibration,the hard material will transmit every little bump and vibration.
Then the elctronics come into play,driving cables incurs capacitive reactance losses,and why an on board buffer is preffered to drive cables,so the high end is kept up and not lost,a good tonefull axe can be let down by cable losses,same as good pickups can be fitted to a shite guitar,much the same way as a £100,000+ LP gold top is wasted on a beginner player who has no tone in the grip,but who has better grip on his tool when jacking it.
Pseudo science is the practice of knowing very little but acting like you know it all,the other term is BULLSHIT.
Why I didn't bother with an f hole on my "Les Pew" I used pine from a 150 year old church pew for the body and wanted to leave the original stained and waxed finish so didn't want to risk damaging it for the sake of decoration.
Forgot to say. two halves both hollowed out leaving a block down the centre as far as the bridge but about 10mm thick top.
I agree with everything Ben said. In my experience, the guitars ive made with a f-hole (like the one in my avatar) dont contribute to the sound at all. They are purely cosmetic as well as some weight relief. A larger body with a bigger chamber will cause the guitar to resonate differently. How that translates into what the pickups "hear" from the strings vibrating is the question! My 3.5 cents.
hi ben,
i think you will hear a difference. this is why.
if have done many experiments with a music box. you know, that toy thing with a crank to make music.
if you take a solid body guitar, lay it on a pillow, turn it upside down so the strings can not vibrate and you put that music box onto the back of the guitar, you can hear it playing through an amp which is turned pretty loud. if you remove the strings you can't hear anything. (if it's a potted pickup, unpotted pickups pickup the woods vibration too)
why is that? i believe, the wood causes the pickup to vibrate. this is little movements
towards the strings and back.
it doesn't change the sound of a solid body guitar, because it's very quiet compared to the signal of the strings.
but it's a different thing with a hollow body, where the wood moves a lot more.
Without getting into the tone wood debate, only focusing on the point regarding the 335, Yes it has a center block made of Maple. It keeps the guitar from creating feedback problems on stage at high volume. Yes the 335 has f holes, but the same guitar without F holes, is a very famous guitar you should be aware of. It's name is Lucille! B.B. King's famous blues guitar. Now a Les Paul type guitar chambered but without f holes, is called a Gretsch electromatic series. I have a single cut Gretsch. G5435T. Thats a mahogany body routed out to create the biggest air chamber as possible in that body style. Then an arched maple cap, but no F holes. The T stands for Tremolo. It has a Bigsby. The G5445 is basically the same guitar, but instead of mahogany they use basswood. Is there a difference in tone between the 5435 and 5445? I doubt it. But I can tell you having that air chamber does make a huge difference over a standard solid body. It mainly unfocuses the mid frequencies quite a bit. Making it less "dark". Same way there is a difference in the 335, and the 339. And the Midtown too for that matter. The bigger the air chamber, the less focused the tone is. Midtown, being in the middle in size between the 335 and the 339, is basically the most versatile. Tones being close to a 335 or change your dials and almost make it to a Les Paul sound. Usually, the 335, the Midtown, and the 339 all have the same pickups and pots. Usually. different years, Gibson does different things. And of course the custom shop can make whatever the heck you want as long as your wallet can support it. But mostly the 3 have PAF's.
I think there are so many factors a play when i comes to the sound of an instrument that the physical characteristics of the instrument is just a small thing. I think the amp and pickups you are using are more important anyways
IMHO even pickups do not matter that much.. they are so cheap to make, its just a magnet and some copper wire, actually. Most of the tone differences come from the logo, just like in Hi-fi
Im curious though acoustically if the f hole shape will make a difference. It should. If you change the shape of a hole you should be changing the vowel shape of the sound, like the human mouth talking. But plugged into an amp yea no change but acoustically tho.
Your little chamber may make a change to the sound unplugged, but much of the tone debate is about the tone once intermediated through a pickup.
Most solid guitars sound the same. It is the pickups that determine the sound difference. That and the touch of the player.
Some set ups sound similar, take the strat honk. You can get that from a cheap Asian knockoff with super cheap pickups. Different (better) pickups will sound different, even if the guitar is made of MDF.
That doesn't mean you can't change a solid guitar's tone, but that is more reliant on the things carrying/ interacting with the signal, from pickup, through cable, pedals to amp and beyond.
What difference does replacing stock pickups make on a semi solid or is it all just BS.
Not BS at all.. pickups make up the largest part of how an amplified guitar sounds.. when amplified!
got something on your mind today?! Cruder than usual but just as interesting! haha
Yes, a 335 does have a solid block of wood down the center of its tone chamber.
The BB King Lucille and those without F holes.. They just add feedback electric.
Also... I have the solution to your "tone" issue... The guitar is a system. EVERY part of the guitar is a part of this system. ANY variation between guitars, be it different grains of wood, different tuners, higher or lower mass parts, different bridges - ANYTHING will change the tone of your guitar (albeit sometimes in a very small way.) There is no "mahogany" tone or "koa" tone or any of that... (well sort of...) but really the guitar as a SYSTEM is why the guitar sounds the way it does.
Yep ES335 has a tone block - really it is a Les Paul with acoustic wings, should not affect the electric tone whatsoever, but it seems to - a 335 sounds different to a Les Paul, it just does.
Michael Gorman I find my Epiphone Sheraton (which is a close relative of the ES-335) to be more "percussive" than the Les Paul, making it more suited for chord work. Playing chords on the LP can really drown your bandmates.
I’m baffled by the obsession with “tone”. What sound is it people WANT that they can’t get with traditional materials and designs that aren’t addressed by pickups, effects, and amplifier?
its bullshit, the amp and the pick ups do 90% of the work.
Guitars are just the controller, the amp, effect and the pick ups are the real game.
"The guys that don't believe the material a guitar body is made of must believe that a Styrofoam or balsa wood body would sound the same as mahogany." Well, no. Even if you could build a guitar from those materials (which are, of course, not strong enough), their low density means that their damping characteristics would affect the tone. The point is that woods that are dense and strong enough to build a guitar from are little different from each other, and little different from any other material that is dense and strong enough to build a guitar from (such as acrylic). Your neck anecdote is an n=1 unblinded trial.
I don't know about F holes but A holes are always important. :D
I found a good comment that just nails it. So here you go:
" go back to school and study physics of pickups. These aren't acoustic guitars. The strings are what 'complete' the 'microphone' that is the pickups. But they are so far from being mic diaphrams it's absurd. Beside the sting sound itself (which is of already the dominant factor by far) mainly the stings are influnced by vibrations fed back into them by the bridge. Maybe the nut a little. But (next to literally zero) of 'airborne' sound energy is introduced into the strings (unless you put them in front of loud amp). Meaning the sound of neck does not 'go to the strings' just because the strings are above the neck. So the 'sound' of the neck itself is super incredibly minimal beyond concern in the tone of an electric. It may be a bit more important for acoustic, but as you may know acoustic tone is much more about the body than the neck also. Myth busted."
or here is another good point:
"Pickups aren't microphones, they can only pickup vibration of a magnetic metal"
I agree with you 100 %. I put a microphone inside of my Casino once and plugged the microphone into a Marshall 50w amp no tone control or effects. It sounded like I was playing inside a cave with cotton wrapped around the strings. It was interesting but I personally didn't like it. It was too muffed and muddled.
"Lay it on my ass" Brilliant! Haha
Its my opinion that anything you do to, or with, a guitar affects the sound. Whether or not these changes in sound can be perceived by the human ears is another story. So, maybe, the philosophical question really is; If you can't sense it, does it exist?
i had this same question! sweet!
F holes on electrics can cause feedback from the amp more often that solid bodies. You can demonstrate that all day long.
See 335 vs Lucille. BB King did not want an f hole for a reason!
Indeed. I has a Hollow body Red Dot and promptly sold it due to the feedback problem.
I do not, however, wish to confuse "tone" with sustain or feedback.
F holes are pretty and they suck
i dont have proof that you are wrong.. but a small mind game..
because some people think on an e-guitar the body has absolutely no influence of the tone.. ich choose a arcustic one for that game..
now imagine a arcustic without the hole in the mid... then start with a little hole.. and drill if bigger and bigger.. no it reches the point where absolutle no top is on the guitar.. and the more experianced builders and player shopuld know that the top of an arcustig is the thing that makes the sound.. so without its basicly like a .. (dont kno the name in english.. the little metal thing to tune your guitar after.. you hit it and when you push the bottom against a table or a guitar.. or your head you can hear the A or what ever) without a body that can resonate and work as speaker.. the harder the body the longer the sustain (that you can try.. in fact i do that every time i tune my guitars).. softer then mean less sustain.. the ability to move and resonate and the sice has an influence of the volume
for a pysisist its basicly.. you hammer in energy into the.. for the time i call it "tune forg"... soft materials absorb the energy and hard materials can transfer the energy when it is alowed to move (like the metal balls on strings) and if its not alowed to move it also can block a energy transfer
to know what im talking abought
th-cam.com/video/8RfNDOWVKgQ/w-d-xo.html
so for each question.. yes it does.. even if you would only drill a 1mm hole into the body.. the question is can you hear it.. and how does it change the "tone"
well till now i only talked abought the volume and the sustain.. how can you influence the tone... each object has his own frequenys it likes.. hammering on a lass bottle.. a falling spoon.. a punched tennis ball (ok exept the material gets so soft that it can absorb each energy).. so you could se a guitar as multible things.. with different frequencys.. multible stings.. neck and body.. in this case may different areas of the guirat likes different frequency because of density, material, shape...
now we all know that some frequency's like others.. even our ear can tell that..
so may you shake one thing and another will also start to schake.. so at the end.. its like 10k claping theys hands to a song.. but in one in 2/4.. one in 4/4.. one in 3/4
so on a guitar you dont want to clap all the same speed.. if your body would sound on it self like A it would love to comunicate with the A string but could hate some other notes.. (on som guitars you have a strong note where you really can tell a difference in sustain and volume).. so the tone is a layer of multible freqency's.. some stronger in the base end.. some stronger in the high end.. well.. so we talkt abought a arcustic guitar.. but in reality you can apply that on every single object of the worlf.. even the world it self has his own frequency (earth 7,83Hz.. and dont believe that esoteric non sens abought a natural A and 436Hz or 440.. .. 4+3+6+4+4+0 = 21 its allt he illuminati.. lol).. so that in mind.. its obsolete to discuss abought the hard e-guitar body.. it all changes the sound.. even in frequency's you cant even hear..
so abought the f hole.. and different shapes.. its to give energy out that is traped inside of the body.. so the size of it changes the amount of energy that can escape.. also gives the top more flexibility and other frequency's that chan be changed with the form of the hole..
for those who want to understand how a arcustic body gets so loud.. or how a tone chamber also influences the body.. the top sends wafes to the back.. they conme back und in de ideal case tey double up with some others and get stronger.. so the top is the way to get the energy in the air.. the hole is the way to get the energy in the air out.. now you could thing.. if the top gets the energy to the air inside.. a closed chamber would cause that the energy in there gets more and more.. but tey colide too.. and cancel them selves out.. also the air pressure inside blocks the movement of the top..
can i calculate what happes.. when you take a hollow body e guitar and remove the f holes?.. no.. you have to try.. you have to hear.. is my argumentation purely on physics.. no.. thats the logic part of it..
i dont had to calculate or know anything abought physics.. i had a girlfriend for 3 years and her father build's arcoustic guitars.. and i love guitars and guitar playing (im more a e guitar guy)
oh som will tell me now.. but its all the pickup.. yeah..where is it mounted.. .. well the last time one said the body dont move at all.. its not enough energy to hafe a influence.. i can tune my guitar without to hear anything.. because the body moves.. yes on my gibson.. and how much movement do you think are in the overtones? even the slightes scraping on the strings is recordet.. why is that.. because a good pickup translate the slightest movement into power.. thats like.. "noo your microscop can not see my finger"
If all this nay-saying is true, why then is a Thinline such a different beast to a Tele ? For effect of chambers and size of hole research Heimholz.
Andertons and rob chapman seems to notice the difference
Look on reverb for an excellent review of the history the name the effect of assholes. I found it extremely helpful
ha ha i laughed my ass of at that guitar on a guitar test video as well.
Totally agree! Laughed and laughed!
why can that guy not just come to the point???
Why can't people who have nothing useful to add just not reply?
this is not a yeas/no answer