@@BlogForTheBloodGod hhh that was actually flavourful, i remember also artifact bolters...that was so cool they should bring back the free (but not op) artifacts to customise your hq
I could be wrong but isn't it more Kharns thing, due to the battle on Salathrax when he burns his own men and their shelters in a rage, getting the name The Betrayer?
A couple math notes. Comparing wounds done per unit is fine, but when you compare WOUNDS DONE PER 100 POINTS. You get much different figures as the units do not cost the same. And by doing it per 100 points you'll level the difference cost of the units
He's not wrong about the durability. I took 10 terminators in a list to an RTT and Canis Rex with a Knight Castellan took 3 turns to remove that 1 unit.
Okay. As I just starting getting to get into the tabletop and am Set on World Eaters I am happy to see that it was not just my resemblance of a brain thinking that terminators would be nice to have (more so because they are cool) I got my angron ready (also Kharn, Lord Innovatus and Master of Executions) and the battleline units too. Just the more special units were missing. Guess I am happy that terminators have a Spot too Great Video!
Lots of extremely interesting points pushing me even further towards running termies lol. On the one hand, I still think that they are overcosted right now, but they really emphasize some aspects that I have wanted to see more of in my World Eaters such as shooting and more durability. For example, in 9th I always used to run 3 War Dog Brigands. Their ability to clear screens and just hose units of sisters and guardsman and whatnot was massively useful. Plus it forced my opponents to have to actually consider the ramifications of my shooting phase, which makes the game far more difficult for them. Usually, they don't have to think about it at all. They can just leave their shooting units out in the open covering all the firing lanes with great overwatch potential. But with us having the ability to shoot back they have to play a LOT more carefully because of it and have to consider many more possible moves, which is good for us, since they are more likely to make mistakes or just get brain overload. This edition I have been making most of my lists with 3 Forgefiends with 3xEctoplama Cannons. The first time I tried out the autocannon option, and immediately regretted it when shooting pre nerf ArcoFlags, which was a terrible idea lol. The Ectoplasmas work much better. Plus if the enemy is getting to them in CC you made a mistake somewhere or the fight is already going really poorly. FF's are fairly tough, move pretty fast, and their ability to clear horde units or elite infantry like enemy terminators is really useful. 1xFF shooting into a 10 man unit of anything is odds on to be 12 shots (3x(d3+2)), hitting on 3's at Str 10, AP-3 DMG 3. So, vs enemy termies, they hit on 3's wound on 2's force the invuln save, and every fail is a dead termie. Kill even just 4 over the course of a game and you've already covered the FFs points cost. Also, as you mentioned in another video, their guns reroll hits when in Angrons aura, which is crazy, so now out of those 12 shots odds are 10-11 of them will hit. Really makes me wish our Sustained Hits applied to shooting though too, which it absolutely should. Codex wish list (fingers crossed) One example where they would shine would be when Custodes were getting free Fights First on their units that were contesting objectives from their stratagem. We don't want to CC that obviously, so we can just shoot em up instead, or charge them after the FF softens them up, and as long as at least one shot hits, you can force a battleshock test that then makes them unable to even use their stratagems until their next turn, so you can shut it down completely. This opens up a whole new layer of tactical interactivity between us and our opponents, providing a wide array of new options, especially if you know your enemies' stratagems really well. Right now, here are the 3 lists I am planning to test. LIST 1 - 1995 pts Angron Invocatus 3x10 Jakhals 1xForgefiend 3x10 Terminators LIST 2 - 1990 pts Invocatus 3x10 Jakhals 3x10 Terminators 3xForgefiend 2x2 Chaos Spawn LIST 3 1990 pts Angron Invocatus 3x10 Jakhals 2x10 Terminators 3xForgefiend 1x2 Chaos Spawn List 3 is really alluring right now because in MANY of my 10th edition games I have had a serious problem trying to deep strike/rapid ingress units, because I just can't find an area that is open enough. Although you did point out that you can use RI to just come in really close to the enemy on your side of the front lines, so that's a good point.
When I got into WEs (18ish months ago) the Eightbound kits were hard to find in person and expensive as hell online. If you could even find them period. Already had some Chaos Termies so I gave them a try. This was when the standard talking point was (WE Termies = bad.) I've since picked up the Eightbound too, but I always had good results with the Terminators.
Nice review, particularly on the point that terminators are a beta attack unit after absorbing damage. Resonated well with the terminator armour known otherwise as tactical dreadnought armour.
good point about the dev shooting on terms, managed to get 9 wounds off a ctan with two units shooting and some grenades during the RRO - ctan had to go upstairs to repair the next round lol
Damnit Dean those are good points but i dont want to buy 2 termi bricks when they maybe coming out with a legion specific sprue...as i reach for my wallet slowly anyways...lol
I’ve been running 30 space wolf terminators since the beginning of October with only a few minor list tweaks after the new points. It’s a very fun, but challenging list to play. I have come across a few matchups though that makes it feel like your math is waaay off. There are things out there that absolutely CAN pick up a 10 man Brick of terminators on 1 go. I got overconfident once against a unit of Ork Nobz with claws. Also roughest matchup was against tau triple crisis suits. That one removed a block every battle round and made a very short game.
when fighting other world eaters does 10 terms math against 6 EEB or will the eightbound wipe the terminators every time? I'm interested to see the math on charge I will have to test
Let's say both use the -1 damage strategem to make the maths easier. Exalted eightbound use eviscerators so the 5 regular dudes get 6a each, hit on 2+ and wound on 3+ for a total of around 16 wounds. Terminators save 8 meaning 8 damage dealt of which 1.333 are saved for 6.6666 unsaved wounds. Then the Champion fights and does his 6 attacks hitting on 3+, wounding on 2+ rerollable for another 4 wounds, Terminators save two and of three two damage for another 1.66 unsaved wounds giving us a total like 8.66 unsaved wounds, so round up to 9 and call it 3 dead Terminators. Where as Terminators (full strength unit) have 24 power fists, hit on 3+ wound on 3+ for 10.6 wounds, Eightbound save 3.5 so take 7 wounds of which they pass 2.3 fnp for 4.7 unsaved wounds. Then the two chainfists for 8 attacks, hit on 4+ and wound on 3+ for 2.66 wounds, Eightbound save .87 of those then pass like half a FnP taking another 1.2 unsaved wounds. Then the paired accursed with total 12 attacks, hit on 3+ wound on 3+ rerollable for 7.2 wounds, they save 2.3 then another 1.5 with FnP for another 3.2 unsaved wounds. That's roughly 9 unsaved wounds which is also 3 dead Exalted Eightbound So both units likely lose 3 models. But Terminators have 10, Eightbound have 6. Also Terminators have shooting to go in first and next round of combat they will have +1 to hit. Terminators win the mirror match
Just out of curiosity, with your damage output on termies vs x8bound. Wouldnt your numbers be a bit off with 5" more movement and a smaller unit wouldnt the eightbound be more likely to get all models in and attack in comparison to a 10 terminator squad that have overall 5" less movement so less likely to get them all in to actually put up the numbers your saying are very similar? Thanks for any input.
I did mention the eightbound as having the advantage of being compact making it easier to get everything to fight. But generally it is not much of a problem
Depending on how I do the math after 5 turns with statistically in a vacuum average saves and damage the terminators could do around 50 damage the eight bound 36 and 49 for the exalted I’m rounding things down for simplicity so you are right and this could
Yeah I'm in two minds. If we get them and they lose their guns I'll be sad. As it removes one of the key differences between Terminators and Eightbound
@@BlogForTheBloodGod True. But, they can still take ranged weapons in HH so I assume the same _should_ be true, just that you can swap out weapons on one of five (as well as the sergeant) to be twin melee.
I prefer it with the chainfists but there is nothing wrong with putting it on a powerfist lad. My way makes it a little simpler as you have 3 loadouts 2 twin accursed 2 chainfist autocannon 6 power fist combi weapon Your way would be 2 twin accursed 2 powerfist autocannon 4 powerfist combi weapon 2 chainfist combi weapon Which just makes it a tiny bit messier
@BlogForTheBloodGod Okay that makes sense. I just prefer it my way cause if I fight someone with no vehicles I know which models to remove first without sacrificing my Autocannons.
Yeah going to give them a try with destructor predators being around exalted just arent cutting it and in most of my games just getting wiped pretty easily still using eightbound for the reroll wounds though
In future videos could you just have the Neoprene objective marker/join discord/subscribe banner on the bottom of the video remain in place, as opposed to popping up and down. I cant concentrate on what you are saying.
On the reread, that sounded more harsh than I intended it, big smiles on my end. It's definitely a important to promote your things, but perhaps that level of frequency and animation and percentage of the screen that it takes over is a little much. Keep up the good work. Back on topic, I found that I actually own 30 chaos terminators from my 5th edition days, when I had both a Word Bearers and "Black Templars" collections. But you know, too many armies and not enough time, I'm not ready to commit to 2000 points of WE 30nators, but I do think about it a lot. (Trying to stay focused on combat patrol and spearhead, investing Wide)
Great video as per usual! I'm curious, do you preference the +2" movement blessing over advance and charge for the Terminator lists so you can still shoot? Edit: Looks like you covered it here, my bad - th-cam.com/video/MMfpCY6oAj4/w-d-xo.html
![[#2024MAMA] BIGBANG (빅뱅) - 뱅뱅뱅 (BANG BANG BANG) + FANTASTIC BABY | Mnet 241123 방송](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EQsYfiPR9uM/mqdefault.jpg)
I find it funny that an army whose whole war cry is "Kill, Maim, Burn!!!" and yet barely any options with flamers.
Very true
After maiming they will grill the remains
@@wojciechprzewozniak597 I miss the burning brand of Skalathrax
@@BlogForTheBloodGod hhh that was actually flavourful, i remember also artifact bolters...that was so cool they should bring back the free (but not op) artifacts to customise your hq
I could be wrong but isn't it more Kharns thing, due to the battle on Salathrax when he burns his own men and their shelters in a rage, getting the name The Betrayer?
This just in: world eaters player discovers the shooting phase.
Shocking development
the other day i killed a custodes character with oveerwatch of berzerkers XD , to be fair, i do because it have 1 wound left
They're also simply more iconic, GW should create plastic versions of the Forgeworld terminator bezerkers.
@@Trazynn hell yeah. 12yo me fucking loved Terminators.... some things never change
A couple math notes.
Comparing wounds done per unit is fine, but when you compare WOUNDS DONE PER 100 POINTS. You get much different figures as the units do not cost the same. And by doing it per 100 points you'll level the difference cost of the units
I didn't do points costs as they change often enough and I wanted this video to be more about comparing datasheets.
@BlogForTheBloodGod makes sense, keep up the great content, I enjoyed the video
He's not wrong about the durability. I took 10 terminators in a list to an RTT and Canis Rex with a Knight Castellan took 3 turns to remove that 1 unit.
They are impressively tough, especially when you stack on -1 damage
Loving your thoughts with terminators I totally agree! So here's my own army idea I'm looking to test out.
Terminator Angron (1955 points)
World Eaters
Strike Force (2000 points)
Berzerker Warband
CHARACTERS
Angron (435 points)
• Warlord
• 1x Samni’arius and Spinegrinder
World Eaters Master of Executions (135 points)
• 1x Axe of dismemberment
1x Bolt pistol
• Enhancement: Berzerker Glaive
BATTLELINE
Jakhals (65 points)
• 1x Jakhal Pack Leader
• 1x Autopistol
1x Jakhal chainblades
• 1x Dishonoured
• 1x Dishonoured chainblades
• 8x Jakhal
• 8x Autopistol
8x Jakhal chainblades
Jakhals (65 points)
• 1x Jakhal Pack Leader
• 1x Autopistol
1x Jakhal chainblades
• 1x Dishonoured
• 1x Dishonoured chainblades
• 8x Jakhal
• 8x Autopistol
8x Jakhal chainblades
Khorne Berzerkers (180 points)
• 1x Khorne Berzerker Champion
• 1x Berzerker chainblade
1x Bolt pistol
• 9x Khorne Berzerker
• 7x Berzerker chainblade
7x Bolt pistol
1x Icon of Khorne
2x Khornate eviscerator
2x Plasma pistol
DEDICATED TRANSPORTS
World Eaters Rhino (75 points)
• 1x Armoured tracks
2x Combi-bolter
1x Havoc launcher
OTHER DATASHEETS
Eightbound (140 points)
• 1x Eightbound Champion
• 1x Lacerators
• 2x Eightbound
• 2x Eightbound eviscerators
Eightbound (140 points)
• 1x Eightbound Champion
• 1x Lacerators
• 2x Eightbound
• 2x Eightbound eviscerators
World Eaters Terminator Squad (360 points)
• 1x World Eaters Terminator Champion
• 1x Combi-weapon
1x Power fist
• 9x World Eaters Terminator
• 2x Chainfist
5x Combi-weapon
2x Paired accursed weapons
5x Power fist
2x Reaper autocannon
World Eaters Terminator Squad (360 points)
• 1x World Eaters Terminator Champion
• 1x Combi-weapon
1x Power fist
• 9x World Eaters Terminator
• 2x Chainfist
5x Combi-weapon
2x Paired accursed weapons
5x Power fist
2x Reaper autocannon
@@JJCarper soli list mate, I like it
Okay. As I just starting getting to get into the tabletop and am Set on World Eaters I am happy to see that it was not just my resemblance of a brain thinking that terminators would be nice to have (more so because they are cool)
I got my angron ready (also Kharn, Lord Innovatus and Master of Executions) and the battleline units too. Just the more special units were missing. Guess I am happy that terminators have a Spot too
Great Video!
Thanks mate and welcome to the faction!
Lots of extremely interesting points pushing me even further towards running termies lol.
On the one hand, I still think that they are overcosted right now, but they really emphasize some aspects that I have wanted to see more of in my World Eaters such as shooting and more durability.
For example, in 9th I always used to run 3 War Dog Brigands. Their ability to clear screens and just hose units of sisters and guardsman and whatnot was massively useful. Plus it forced my opponents to have to actually consider the ramifications of my shooting phase, which makes the game far more difficult for them. Usually, they don't have to think about it at all. They can just leave their shooting units out in the open covering all the firing lanes with great overwatch potential. But with us having the ability to shoot back they have to play a LOT more carefully because of it and have to consider many more possible moves, which is good for us, since they are more likely to make mistakes or just get brain overload.
This edition I have been making most of my lists with 3 Forgefiends with 3xEctoplama Cannons. The first time I tried out the autocannon option, and immediately regretted it when shooting pre nerf ArcoFlags, which was a terrible idea lol. The Ectoplasmas work much better. Plus if the enemy is getting to them in CC you made a mistake somewhere or the fight is already going really poorly.
FF's are fairly tough, move pretty fast, and their ability to clear horde units or elite infantry like enemy terminators is really useful. 1xFF shooting into a 10 man unit of anything is odds on to be 12 shots (3x(d3+2)), hitting on 3's at Str 10, AP-3 DMG 3. So, vs enemy termies, they hit on 3's wound on 2's force the invuln save, and every fail is a dead termie. Kill even just 4 over the course of a game and you've already covered the FFs points cost. Also, as you mentioned in another video, their guns reroll hits when in Angrons aura, which is crazy, so now out of those 12 shots odds are 10-11 of them will hit. Really makes me wish our Sustained Hits applied to shooting though too, which it absolutely should. Codex wish list (fingers crossed)
One example where they would shine would be when Custodes were getting free Fights First on their units that were contesting objectives from their stratagem. We don't want to CC that obviously, so we can just shoot em up instead, or charge them after the FF softens them up, and as long as at least one shot hits, you can force a battleshock test that then makes them unable to even use their stratagems until their next turn, so you can shut it down completely. This opens up a whole new layer of tactical interactivity between us and our opponents, providing a wide array of new options, especially if you know your enemies' stratagems really well.
Right now, here are the 3 lists I am planning to test.
LIST 1 - 1995 pts
Angron
Invocatus
3x10 Jakhals
1xForgefiend
3x10 Terminators
LIST 2 - 1990 pts
Invocatus
3x10 Jakhals
3x10 Terminators
3xForgefiend
2x2 Chaos Spawn
LIST 3 1990 pts
Angron
Invocatus
3x10 Jakhals
2x10 Terminators
3xForgefiend
1x2 Chaos Spawn
List 3 is really alluring right now because in MANY of my 10th edition games I have had a serious problem trying to deep strike/rapid ingress units, because I just can't find an area that is open enough. Although you did point out that you can use RI to just come in really close to the enemy on your side of the front lines, so that's a good point.
Thanks so much for this. Building my first WE 1k Army and was so torn between the two!
Glad I could help
When I got into WEs (18ish months ago) the Eightbound kits were hard to find in person and expensive as hell online. If you could even find them period. Already had some Chaos Termies so I gave them a try. This was when the standard talking point was (WE Termies = bad.) I've since picked up the Eightbound too, but I always had good results with the Terminators.
Yeah there was a period there where they were so hard to find. Good thing Terminators do it better anyway hahaha
The 8b fall back aura is game winning.
cool video though
Not if your opponent is super experienced but fair point it can be Brutal and I left it off my comparison
Your dice ad gets me every time man 🤣 Well played sir 👏
Haha yeah that one was fun to film, so many takes as I kept laughing through it
*reads video title
Yes.
My red butchers (running regular chaos terminators since no butcher stat sheet) was running through some grey knights
Haha nice
Ok I'll give it a try, you convinced me : printing a second squad of termis this weekend ; I'm on the twenty'nator train now ^^
Hahaha let me know when you join us in the luxurious Thirtynator train
Nice review, particularly on the point that terminators are a beta attack unit after absorbing damage. Resonated well with the terminator armour known otherwise as tactical dreadnought armour.
It plays on the tabletop exactly how I picture it in lore
good point about the dev shooting on terms, managed to get 9 wounds off a ctan with two units shooting and some grenades during the RRO - ctan had to go upstairs to repair the next round lol
Hahaha yeah some time that shooting pops off
Damnit Dean those are good points but i dont want to buy 2 termi bricks when they maybe coming out with a legion specific sprue...as i reach for my wallet slowly anyways...lol
Hahahah yeah I held off buying berzerkers for like 7 years as there was always rumours of a new kit
I’ve been running 30 space wolf terminators since the beginning of October with only a few minor list tweaks after the new points.
It’s a very fun, but challenging list to play.
I have come across a few matchups though that makes it feel like your math is waaay off. There are things out there that absolutely CAN pick up a 10 man Brick of terminators on 1 go.
I got overconfident once against a unit of Ork Nobz with claws. Also roughest matchup was against tau triple crisis suits. That one removed a block every battle round and made a very short game.
I'm not saying it cannot be done, it absolutely can, that's why I run three units of 10 hahahahahah
I can't wait to get my joytoy berserkers and Lord Invocatus! Lol just had to get that off my chest. Great comparison btw
Bahaha I love this comment
when fighting other world eaters does 10 terms math against 6 EEB or will the eightbound wipe the terminators every time? I'm interested to see the math on charge I will have to test
Let's say both use the -1 damage strategem to make the maths easier.
Exalted eightbound use eviscerators so the 5 regular dudes get 6a each, hit on 2+ and wound on 3+ for a total of around 16 wounds. Terminators save 8 meaning 8 damage dealt of which 1.333 are saved for 6.6666 unsaved wounds. Then the Champion fights and does his 6 attacks hitting on 3+, wounding on 2+ rerollable for another 4 wounds, Terminators save two and of three two damage for another 1.66 unsaved wounds giving us a total like 8.66 unsaved wounds, so round up to 9 and call it 3 dead Terminators.
Where as Terminators (full strength unit) have 24 power fists, hit on 3+ wound on 3+ for 10.6 wounds, Eightbound save 3.5 so take 7 wounds of which they pass 2.3 fnp for 4.7 unsaved wounds. Then the two chainfists for 8 attacks, hit on 4+ and wound on 3+ for 2.66 wounds, Eightbound save .87 of those then pass like half a FnP taking another 1.2 unsaved wounds. Then the paired accursed with total 12 attacks, hit on 3+ wound on 3+ rerollable for 7.2 wounds, they save 2.3 then another 1.5 with FnP for another 3.2 unsaved wounds. That's roughly 9 unsaved wounds which is also 3 dead Exalted Eightbound
So both units likely lose 3 models. But Terminators have 10, Eightbound have 6. Also Terminators have shooting to go in first and next round of combat they will have +1 to hit.
Terminators win the mirror match
@@BlogForTheBloodGod Thank you very much for the wonderful reply. Terminators here I come!
Just out of curiosity, with your damage output on termies vs x8bound. Wouldnt your numbers be a bit off with 5" more movement and a smaller unit wouldnt the eightbound be more likely to get all models in and attack in comparison to a 10 terminator squad that have overall 5" less movement so less likely to get them all in to actually put up the numbers your saying are very similar? Thanks for any input.
I did mention the eightbound as having the advantage of being compact making it easier to get everything to fight. But generally it is not much of a problem
The best chain fists come from the chaos lord in terminator armor
Very true
I enjoyed this. Good work.
Thanks mate :)
My wife thinks 4 inches makes a massive difference! X8B for the win
It’s actually 4” 🙈
Ask her what she would rather, another 4" or another 4 men
How do you field them? On the table? In DS?
Depends how many you have hahaha.
I generally do 3 units of 10, one on the table, two in deep strike. But it varies based on opponent
@@BlogForTheBloodGod I'll play 2x6 Exalted 8b and 10 termies. So DS seems better?
Depending on how I do the math after 5 turns with statistically in a vacuum average saves and damage the terminators could do around 50 damage the eight bound 36 and 49 for the exalted I’m rounding things down for simplicity so you are right and this could
@@livingghost7975 especially when you factor in the +1 to hit and Wound as the Terminators take casualties
You should test those against Shuriken Cannon. 22:00
I'm hoping honest to God that Red Butchers are released. It's a crime that the other chaos legions have them but WE don't have theirs.
Yeah I'm in two minds. If we get them and they lose their guns I'll be sad. As it removes one of the key differences between Terminators and Eightbound
@@BlogForTheBloodGod True. But, they can still take ranged weapons in HH so I assume the same _should_ be true, just that you can swap out weapons on one of five (as well as the sergeant) to be twin melee.
Why would you want to build the Chainfists with the Autocannon?
Wouldn't you want the Superior Autocannon to be with the more versatile Powerfist?
I prefer it with the chainfists but there is nothing wrong with putting it on a powerfist lad.
My way makes it a little simpler as you have 3 loadouts
2 twin accursed
2 chainfist autocannon
6 power fist combi weapon
Your way would be
2 twin accursed
2 powerfist autocannon
4 powerfist combi weapon
2 chainfist combi weapon
Which just makes it a tiny bit messier
@BlogForTheBloodGod Okay that makes sense.
I just prefer it my way cause if I fight someone with no vehicles I know which models to remove first without sacrificing my Autocannons.
Is a Land Raider a not good choice to transport those beauties to maim/kill zone? Why I do nost see any LR in any lists?
Land Raiders can only hold 5 Terminators unfortunately, and units of 10 are definitely the way to go
The chart is gold.
I wonder which other units would be worth comparing
@BlogForTheBloodGod would like to see Forgefiend vs Hellbrute for shoot/melee comparison.
Yeah going to give them a try with destructor predators being around exalted just arent cutting it and in most of my games just getting wiped pretty easily still using eightbound for the reroll wounds though
There is something to be said for the durability of tanks too
@BlogForTheBloodGod yeah the autocannon is really good at getting rid of 3w units
In future videos could you just have the Neoprene objective marker/join discord/subscribe banner on the bottom of the video remain in place, as opposed to popping up and down. I cant concentrate on what you are saying.
Haha reasonable feedback. I was playing around with ideas on how to make it interesting, may have gone too far lol
@@BlogForTheBloodGod (joke) you need some subway surfer running on the side
thank you, that was great info. use even 20 terminators in my list. and i love them 🥳💀💀
Glad ya liked it mate
Can you take two autocannons? I'm only seeing one available.
One per 5 models
Awesome
Thanks mate :)
Great content as usual; but that bouncing ad-footer for 54 minutes, please make it stop...
Bahahahaha feedback recieved
On the reread, that sounded more harsh than I intended it, big smiles on my end. It's definitely a important to promote your things, but perhaps that level of frequency and animation and percentage of the screen that it takes over is a little much. Keep up the good work.
Back on topic, I found that I actually own 30 chaos terminators from my 5th edition days, when I had both a Word Bearers and "Black Templars" collections. But you know, too many armies and not enough time, I'm not ready to commit to 2000 points of WE 30nators, but I do think about it a lot. (Trying to stay focused on combat patrol and spearhead, investing Wide)
Where are my Red Butchers, Games Workshop?!? *drowns manager in toilet water*
Is #thirtynators nongron or angron nowadays?
I prefer nongron
Great video as per usual! I'm curious, do you preference the +2" movement blessing over advance and charge for the Terminator lists so you can still shoot?
Edit: Looks like you covered it here, my bad - th-cam.com/video/MMfpCY6oAj4/w-d-xo.html
Haha yeah often the +2 move is much better