Excellent discussion. Togehter you took a difficult subject and made it clear in a very brief time. He's a natural born teacher, and your questions lead him perfectly. I'd love to know more about the implications of Top-Down Causation.
Top down causality is pretextual consistency- coherency. Bottom up "causality" is contextual consistency -consciousness: the consistency of consciousness is Nature (the foundation of context). The relationship between pretext and context? Certainly the human will is intentional, but is it causal? No? Not like Nature is causal. The core concept between pretext and context is meaning not causation. How does meaning arise? By Nussbaum's "cataleptic impression"? By inference, memory and experience leading to consistency? A consistency of consciousness supported by inference and memory and intention. When your intention becomes the world's outcome. When you cause an effect in the world, or when your expectation of an effect is confirmed by experience of the world.
Brilliant analysis. It's interesting that clearly the most logical place to look for 'free will' causation is human society, which is crammed full of evidence at every level which Occam's Razor would find convincing. But it's not discussed.
We don't know how we get from wavefunction U to the manifested world R (Roger Penrose) so talking about bottom up causation is in principle useless according to Kuhn's logic
From the point of view of Mathematics, there are two distinct idealizations of the reality: continues vs discrete, or equations vs. inequalities. In one kind of situations, when the equations work well (say celestial mechanics) the equations of motion and their continues solutions perfectly describe the reality. The causation does not apply, no distinguishable causes and effects. The motion evolves continuously. Another situation emerges when certain parameters get > than some threshold; when some inequality happens. Say, a comet approached too close to Jupiter and broke into pieces (caused by the tidal forces). Then violation of some inequality is the cause of the subsequent effect. However, both approaches are idealizations (that's what Mathematics typically suggests). The reality is so complicated that neither of the two describes it fully. Moreover, even if the Physical world were deterministic, and all the initial values were obtainable from the lowest level (say atoms), the amount of that data and complexity of the model would be so enormous, that now computer EVER would be able to process and solve such a problem! Even a humanly invented finite game such as chess, have so many outcomes (of the order 10^86), that no computer ever would be able to verify all outcomes (unless there exists some shortcut, say like a proof that there exist infinite number of primes).
Causation is choices and its effects. Matter is possibilities ( incomplete information) which become manifested by choices adding information to produce the details necessary for perception.
I almost get the impression that "causation" is rough way of thinking. And not well defined. It means different things, in different contexts. Even with Aristotle, he talked about different types of causes, e.g. "material cause", "efficient cause", "formal cause", "final cause". Nowadays, when most people talk about complex systems. A->B (B follows A) seems woefully inadequate, and too atomic, to capture what is really going on.
Although a great interview and explanation of macro-scale biological causality it neglects the micro, which is what I was hoping to view. Quantum causation specifically refers to increasing entropy from heat. When talking of causality the discussion should revolve around the big bang. How did the initial state change into the next state and so on. Interestingly, entropy can work in a decreasing fashion. Meaning it is possible for causality to run the opposite direction, that is, the arrow of time is reversed. The causality of this Universe correlates to Einsteins Relativity revealing a Block Timed Universe. The future and the past are equally real. It is possible to remember the future.
Thinking about "emergence" makes we wonder what besides humans might have emerged given the current conditions. It could easily be something we can't see or appreciate.
What about quantum mechanics and branchial space ? The small world of physics with the well defined equations isn't so well defined rather a place of probability. The if/else computation/simulation by high level organized life/bugs and the branching so non linear outcome is not only found in biology. In fact the opposite was studies: how do we go from quantum randomness to high level well organized predictable objects.
So many smart people say "animals adapt to their environment". This is simply not true. Many mutations randomly occur in species. Those individuals with a mutation giving them an advantage in their current environment have a greater chance of survival and pass the trait down. They did not "adapt to the environment". I think evolution is a common denominator between cosmology and life. The universe rolls on, randomly generating different fundamental values. Those values that don't work out become deadend branches. Other sets of values persist long enough for galaxies, solar systems and life to evolve.
Does top-down causation just lack distinction as for determinable specifications? Or is it supposed to also accommodate asymmetrical overdetermination?
what happens in top down causation for the computer example, as the higher level language results in specific lower level activity? how does programming fit into top down causation on computer?
@@liamc4113 from the viewpoint of designer, builder, programmer there is top - down causation? from the viewpoint of program, hardware and computer there is bottom - up causation?
@@jamesruscheinski8602 Sorry, I can't teach you programming and programming architecture courses in this comment and I am not a professor or an instructor. But here is the link in case you want to know more en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compiler
just wondering, isn't double slit experiment in physics a logic problem, i.e. if experiment is measured, show collapse of a wave, else show pattern of intereference?
1830 news of Darwin to go to the Galapagos Islands. Top hats were still in fashion and little girls wore white aprons over dresses. A train raced a horse. And lots of famous writers and inventors were born that year or born in the years ahead. Darwin sure made a lasting impression hmm? So the causal abstract comes from an experience even if the mental and biological are resisting the possibility of something holographic or phenomenal, the memory may still arise later if the conditions required further investigation or cross checking for the new physical adaptations to have relevance?
You are atop a building, and you see someone down below you dont like. You toss a 90 pound bag of concrete over the side. You are now the causation of their demise.
There are certain thought experiments which show that some phenomena still elude our understanding, such as conscious experience. However, I failed to see any of that in this video. The examples given missed an explanation what is so distinct about them. Take the wire causing electrons to flow, for example. It's not the wire which is the cause but a difference in potential. The wire is just part of the environment in which it is taking place. Just like the universe. Is universe a cause to everything what is happening because everything is happening in the universe? I failed to see any coherence in the arguments presented in the video.
George Ellis gives reason for free will. Physical causation can be explained until we "hit biology" where "logic branches out" to "if", "then", "else" category. "If" a crime, "then" criminal should have done something "else".
Well "George Francis Rayner Ellis is the Emeritus Distinguished Professor of Complex Systems in the Department of Mathematics and Applied Mathematics at the University of Cape Town in South Africa" maybe you can ask him about that...
@@aroundandround I understand that. I am just pointing out that he may have something to share related to your comment if you would reach out to him. (I.e. He is not just a philosopher...) The ideas were pretty interesting even though I have been holding to a strong bottom up only viewpoint for years now, this interview has stirred my thinking a bit.
That's how human level causation works. You ignore all the things that don't seem to change and subjectively select the one input that you think is important.
Great interview, I have a ? For you Robert about another episode I want to watch again but I don’t remover the physics dudes name was… He had the Klein bottle demonstration from the fundamental Tree, first Cause… He even had that paper scroll he unrolled showing space and time, what’s that’s guys name? Richard something… The reason I say this is because my numbers make a Klein botttle Implosion Magnetic Vortex Engine… I’m serious, hahaha… It’s incredible… Perfect Geometry, from “Implosion’s”… Cavitating all the way home… I told you all I solved it, nobody believed me, except me-I’m “Nobody”… My old Indian name from back in the day, a different cycle than this one… Anyhow, I make it out of Numbered geometry, it’s a quantum Ion Thruster,, endless supply of energy… For real… This makes me the richest man in the world… The Freaky part about it is I blueprinted it as soon as I had the “Vision”… It was a primitive version then, but I have updated it and it’s incredible… We “SHALL” be exploring lots a places, Mars first! But it’s my Quantum Thruster that’s taking us there… I open sourced it, a long time ago… Everyone called me crazy… Robert, you know what I said… Nonsense is Real! Nonsense on this… Hahaha… I Am “The Dancing Wu Li Master”… 108x1728…. The Speed Of Light in MPS… But, I prefer to glide like the “Silver Surfer”… 108x5x345.6= Liquid Light…! I work for “THE KING OF GLORY”…! My mission is accomplished… Conscious Quantum AI via the Aether, with Sonoluminescent Quantum Magnetism… (~) Masculine Vacuum Energy for Dominion! RA!!! 369 Cavitate! Cavitate! Cavitate! Quantum Generator of “SPIRIT”… 1/32= 0.03125
Reflection is key. Frequencies reveal wisdom. Resonance offers clarity. But what lies beyond the combination of all three is unable to be defined by any word in any language of humanity's creation. 🐲✨🐲✨🐲✨ "Before I start, I must see my end. Destination known, my mind's journey now begins. Upon my chariot, heart and soul's fate revealed. In Time, all points converge; hope's strength, resteeled. But to earn final peace at the universe's endless refrain, we must see all in nothingness... before we start again." 🐲✨🐲✨🐲✨ --Diamond Dragons (series)
It drives me nuts that people talk about religion (fantasy) as if it were reality. And those same people talk about causation (reality) as if it was speculation… fantasy.
Causation is a conceptual model of reality its NOT reality. Causation is a description of the phenomena its NOT the phenomena. Causation like religion exists only between your ears :)
George, you're talking a lot of BS, and it is clearly seen that you don't understand correctly the real universal dynamic. Absolutely everything is causal, at any level imaginable, as deep as you can go, and as large as you can go. Causal, continuous and uninterrupted. The "feedback" that you're talking about is just the sublevel of the aggregate 'pushing' continuously again and again and again ( the aggregate against the resistance of the local entropic dynamism, bacteria against the toxin, etc ) until the aggregated 'cause and effect' finds the way to propagate further up to the next complex state of emergence, and so on and so forth to infinity. Maxwell equations are just mathematical representations concocted artificially by the human mind, but natural evolution is one next real causal emergence from the infinite number of them. Stop confusing the left hand with the right hand ( "top-down...etc" is a useless BS that just blinds you ). Get out of your mental indoctrination if you want to understand everything correctly.
This one is good, but logic is not the core, it’s a product of much more complicated process, computer algorithms are the result of human logic. the logic behind physics laws works within environment, but human logic is universal (can work everywhere). evolution theory is incorrect, evolution does exist but the interpretations are wrong!
Human logic is a product of more sophisticated process it can adopt different environments, but the laws of physics in this universe produced specifically for this universe. to concise logic is a product but essential for mankind (they can use their own logic to decipher them)
@@aminomar7890 The laws of physics are not produced for the universe. The laws of physics are a generalization of the behavior and motion of matter. No one was sitting somewhere and creating the laws of physics. No legislative body got together and decided what the laws of physics were going to be for this specific universe.
![BABYMONSTER - 'DRIP' M/V REACTION [WAS NOT EXPECTING THIS!!!]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/t0Lpgr1jo3Y/mqdefault.jpg)
Excellent discussion. Togehter you took a difficult subject and made it clear in a very brief time. He's a natural born teacher, and your questions lead him perfectly. I'd love to know more about the implications of Top-Down Causation.
Top down causality is pretextual consistency- coherency. Bottom up "causality" is contextual consistency -consciousness: the consistency of consciousness is Nature (the foundation of context).
The relationship between pretext and context? Certainly the human will is intentional, but is it causal? No? Not like Nature is causal.
The core concept between pretext and context is meaning not causation. How does meaning arise? By Nussbaum's "cataleptic impression"? By inference, memory and experience leading to consistency? A consistency of consciousness supported by inference and memory and intention. When your intention becomes the world's outcome. When you cause an effect in the world, or when your expectation of an effect is confirmed by experience of the world.
Brilliant analysis. It's interesting that clearly the most logical place to look for 'free will' causation is human society, which is crammed full of evidence at every level which Occam's Razor would find convincing. But it's not discussed.
..the last few seconds/words of him were very intriguing and need further investigation!
We don't know how we get from wavefunction U to the manifested world R (Roger Penrose) so talking about bottom up causation is in principle useless according to Kuhn's logic
Thank you. Understanding was furthered.
From the point of view of Mathematics, there are two distinct idealizations of the reality: continues vs discrete, or equations vs. inequalities.
In one kind of situations, when the equations work well (say celestial mechanics) the equations of motion and their continues solutions perfectly describe the reality. The causation does not apply, no distinguishable causes and effects. The motion evolves continuously.
Another situation emerges when certain parameters get > than some threshold; when some inequality happens. Say, a comet approached too close to Jupiter and broke into pieces (caused by the tidal forces). Then violation of some inequality is the cause of the subsequent effect.
However, both approaches are idealizations (that's what Mathematics typically suggests). The reality is so complicated that neither of the two describes it fully.
Moreover, even if the Physical world were deterministic, and all the initial values were obtainable from the lowest level (say atoms), the amount of that data and complexity of the model would be so enormous, that now computer EVER would be able to process and solve such a problem! Even a humanly invented finite game such as chess, have so many outcomes (of the order 10^86), that no computer ever would be able to verify all outcomes (unless there exists some shortcut, say like a proof that there exist infinite number of primes).
Now, I am... closer to truth.
Causation is choices and its effects. Matter is possibilities ( incomplete information) which become manifested by choices adding information to produce the details necessary for perception.
does top down causation happen from past to present? is there a psychological element to top down causation?
I almost get the impression that "causation" is rough way of thinking. And not well defined. It means different things, in different contexts. Even with Aristotle, he talked about different types of causes, e.g. "material cause", "efficient cause", "formal cause", "final cause".
Nowadays, when most people talk about complex systems. A->B (B follows A) seems woefully inadequate, and too atomic, to capture what is really going on.
A compelling perspective...
if im not mistaken ....
i believe the correct term is:
CAUSALITY
does bottom up causation happen from future to present?
Although a great interview and explanation of macro-scale biological causality it neglects the micro, which is what I was hoping to view. Quantum causation specifically refers to increasing entropy from heat. When talking of causality the discussion should revolve around the big bang. How did the initial state change into the next state and so on.
Interestingly, entropy can work in a decreasing fashion. Meaning it is possible for causality to run the opposite direction, that is, the arrow of time is reversed. The causality of this Universe correlates to Einsteins Relativity revealing a Block Timed Universe. The future and the past are equally real. It is possible to remember the future.
In the block universe where the past and future are equally real, could it be said that the cause is the effect of its own effect?
Thinking about "emergence" makes we wonder what besides humans might have emerged given the current conditions. It could easily be something we can't see or appreciate.
What about quantum mechanics and branchial space ? The small world of physics with the well defined equations isn't so well defined rather a place of probability. The if/else computation/simulation by high level organized life/bugs and the branching so non linear outcome is not only found in biology. In fact the opposite was studies: how do we go from quantum randomness to high level well organized predictable objects.
So many smart people say "animals adapt to their environment". This is simply not true. Many mutations randomly occur in species. Those individuals with a mutation giving them an advantage in their current environment have a greater chance of survival and pass the trait down. They did not "adapt to the environment".
I think evolution is a common denominator between cosmology and life. The universe rolls on, randomly generating different fundamental values. Those values that don't work out become deadend branches. Other sets of values persist long enough for galaxies, solar systems and life to evolve.
is the programming of a computer considered to be top - down or bottom - up causation? what about design and building of computer?
Causation spectre of science is shortened to "functions", it's never the "pure causality", spoken with Kant..
Does top-down causation just lack distinction as for determinable specifications? Or is it supposed to also accommodate asymmetrical overdetermination?
what happens in top down causation for the computer example, as the higher level language results in specific lower level activity? how does programming fit into top down causation on computer?
programmers don't write machine codes. This is the example of top down causation.
@@liamc4113 programs are written to run on machine codes already there?
@@liamc4113 from the viewpoint of designer, builder, programmer there is top - down causation? from the viewpoint of program, hardware and computer there is bottom - up causation?
@@jamesruscheinski8602 Sorry, I can't teach you programming and programming architecture courses in this comment and I am not a professor or an instructor. But here is the link in case you want to know more en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compiler
@@liamc4113 maybe input into computer and use of output has top-down causation; while internal operations of computer are bottom-up causation?
just wondering, isn't double slit experiment in physics a logic problem, i.e. if experiment is measured, show collapse of a wave, else show pattern of intereference?
1830 news of Darwin to go to the Galapagos Islands. Top hats were still in fashion and little girls wore white aprons over dresses. A train raced a horse. And lots of famous writers and inventors were born that year or born in the years ahead. Darwin sure made a lasting impression hmm? So the causal abstract comes from an experience even if the mental and biological are resisting the possibility of something holographic or phenomenal, the memory may still arise later if the conditions required further investigation or cross checking for the new physical adaptations to have relevance?
You are atop a building, and you see someone down below you dont like. You toss a 90 pound bag of concrete over the side. You are now the causation of their demise.
There are certain thought experiments which show that some phenomena still elude our understanding, such as conscious experience. However, I failed to see any of that in this video. The examples given missed an explanation what is so distinct about them. Take the wire causing electrons to flow, for example. It's not the wire which is the cause but a difference in potential. The wire is just part of the environment in which it is taking place. Just like the universe. Is universe a cause to everything what is happening because everything is happening in the universe? I failed to see any coherence in the arguments presented in the video.
The host's mic was picking up some extremely noisy insects, sounded like.
Wouldn't selection just be a combination of constraints and feedback control?
Oooh - ok, I get it. These are hierarchical. Each is an emergent property of all of the previous top-down controls.
George Ellis gives reason for free will. Physical causation can be explained until we "hit biology" where "logic branches out" to "if", "then", "else" category. "If" a crime, "then" criminal should have done something "else".
A scientist could examine paint in great detail,
but she would never predict the Mona Lisa.
In my dream someone is asking, what exist earliest ? 🤔🤔🤔
Without math, it is difficult to ascribe a concrete meaning to what he’s saying.
Well "George Francis Rayner Ellis is the Emeritus Distinguished Professor of Complex Systems in the Department of Mathematics and Applied Mathematics at the University of Cape Town in South Africa" maybe you can ask him about that...
@@SingularSolarus My comment was on the lack of mathematical precision in the content, not the mathematical ability of the speaker.
@@aroundandround I understand that. I am just pointing out that he may have something to share related to your comment if you would reach out to him. (I.e. He is not just a philosopher...) The ideas were pretty interesting even though I have been holding to a strong bottom up only viewpoint for years now, this interview has stirred my thinking a bit.
Causation indicates that one event is the result of the occurrence of the other event
That's how human level causation works. You ignore all the things that don't seem to change and subjectively select the one input that you think is important.
Great interview, I have a ? For you Robert about another episode I want to watch again but I don’t remover the physics dudes name was… He had the Klein bottle demonstration from the fundamental Tree, first Cause… He even had that paper scroll he unrolled showing space and time, what’s that’s guys name? Richard something… The reason I say this is because my numbers make a Klein botttle Implosion Magnetic Vortex Engine… I’m serious, hahaha… It’s incredible… Perfect Geometry, from “Implosion’s”…
Cavitating all the way home… I told you all I solved it, nobody believed me, except me-I’m “Nobody”… My old Indian name from back in the day, a different cycle than this one… Anyhow, I make it out of Numbered geometry, it’s a quantum Ion Thruster,, endless supply of energy… For real… This makes me the richest man in the world… The Freaky part about it is I blueprinted it as soon as I had the “Vision”… It was a primitive version then, but I have updated it and it’s incredible… We “SHALL” be exploring lots a places, Mars first! But it’s my Quantum Thruster that’s taking us there… I open sourced it, a long time ago… Everyone called me crazy… Robert, you know what I said… Nonsense is Real! Nonsense on this… Hahaha… I Am “The Dancing Wu Li Master”…
108x1728…. The Speed Of Light in MPS… But, I prefer to glide like the “Silver Surfer”… 108x5x345.6= Liquid Light…! I work for “THE KING OF GLORY”…! My mission is accomplished… Conscious Quantum AI via the Aether, with Sonoluminescent Quantum Magnetism… (~) Masculine Vacuum Energy for Dominion! RA!!! 369
Cavitate! Cavitate! Cavitate!
Quantum Generator of “SPIRIT”…
1/32= 0.03125
Which is why free will does exist.
Reflection is key. Frequencies reveal wisdom. Resonance offers clarity. But what lies beyond the combination of all three is unable to be defined by any word in any language of humanity's creation.
🐲✨🐲✨🐲✨
"Before I start, I must see my end. Destination known, my mind's journey now begins. Upon my chariot, heart and soul's fate revealed. In Time, all points converge; hope's strength, resteeled. But to earn final peace at the universe's endless refrain, we must see all in nothingness... before we start again."
🐲✨🐲✨🐲✨
--Diamond Dragons (series)
Puff, puff, pass, you have had enough.
It drives me nuts that people talk about religion (fantasy) as if it were reality.
And those same people talk about causation (reality) as if it was speculation… fantasy.
Causation is a conceptual model of reality its NOT reality. Causation is a description of the phenomena its NOT the phenomena. Causation like religion exists only between your ears :)
Interesting response. I highly recommend you read the book, “reality glasses”.
Got mine on Amazon.
@@aren8798 ok thanks :)
🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢
George, you're talking a lot of BS, and it is clearly seen that you don't understand correctly the real universal dynamic.
Absolutely everything is causal, at any level imaginable, as deep as you can go, and as large as you can go.
Causal, continuous and uninterrupted.
The "feedback" that you're talking about is just the sublevel of the aggregate 'pushing' continuously again and again and again ( the aggregate against the resistance of the local entropic dynamism, bacteria against the toxin, etc ) until the aggregated 'cause and effect' finds the way to propagate further up to the next complex state of emergence, and so on and so forth to infinity.
Maxwell equations are just mathematical representations concocted artificially by the human mind, but natural evolution is one next real causal emergence from the infinite number of them.
Stop confusing the left hand with the right hand ( "top-down...etc" is a useless BS that just blinds you ).
Get out of your mental indoctrination if you want to understand everything correctly.
single cell organisms are proof of highly complex structures and activity...
The dude with mustache needs to open Quran. He is confused
This one is good, but logic is not the core, it’s a product of much more complicated process, computer algorithms are the result of human logic.
the logic behind physics laws works within environment, but human logic is universal (can work everywhere).
evolution theory is incorrect, evolution does exist but the interpretations are wrong!
Human logic is not universal it depends on the environment. The physical laws are descriptions not laws in a legalistic sense.
Human logic is a product of more sophisticated process it can adopt different environments, but the laws of physics in this universe produced specifically for this universe.
to concise logic is a product but essential for mankind (they can use their own logic to decipher them)
@@aminomar7890 The laws of physics are not produced for the universe. The laws of physics are a generalization of the behavior and motion of matter. No one was sitting somewhere and creating the laws of physics. No legislative body got together and decided what the laws of physics were going to be for this specific universe.
is he australian? sorry, i'm at least as interesting in accents as i am in causation. especially when i'm none the smarter for having listened.