I think the problem with the 80s OJC is that its cut flat off the tape which likely has a volume imbalance on the songs and needs mastering to be corrected.
To each their own ears- but it’s funny to me the difference in the way audiophiles listen to these sacred recordings: and musicians do. Support the artists- listen to the playing, too. 👊💯
Interesting comparison.I just got the new OJC and I thought it sounded great.I noticed what you said about the Bass extending or singing, it was really impressive.
I don't know, they're both amazing, but the hotness of the OJC I prefer over the hotness of the cymbals on the AP. They at once feel more live, but also are less appealing to my ears. But like, both are amazing.
a louder cut (not louder because of compression but because of level) will give you better dynamics. There is always a noise floor. Groove noise is inherent in vinyl.
I’m sure WCB as well as others preordered both Waltz and Village Vanguard - any of you had an issue where craft won’t ship Waltz until 8/25/23 as their policy is to ship all preorders together?
Great question, and I get the desire to group them together to save on shipping. In this case, I placed separate orders to not have to wait for the total order to be ready. In the past, I've had to wait something like 5 months because I made that mistake with something that was ready for immediate shipping and an advanced preorder.
FYI for anyone who is interested, I have a different 1985 OJC of Waltz for Debby than yours (mine has RE1 in the deadwax) and I didn't hear anything resembling the issue mentioned on the first track. This perhaps suggests that mine was a recut where they fixed the issue, but I'm not totally sure. I went down a rabbit hole trying to figure this out after that first Waltz for Debby video and I commented there at the time.
yea, that sounds like the probable scenario. Its funny how some of these little nuances continue to be discovered, where issues were corrected but just not well documented over the years
Thank you for your opinions. I am really wanting to add Bill Evans to my collection. However, I live in Australia. It doesn’t matter which way I go, buying either of these is expensive. Shipping the box set to Australia is a crazy price. There are a few for sale in retailers here for close to AUD$3000. So your description is valuable. I think I’ll keep saving for the AP version and hope the store will take pity on me and give me a discount.😅
it's clear there needs to be better distribution options for music fans outside the United States. I don't know how we can call ourselves a truly global economy when import/export is so restricted with taxes, especially considering the fact that Australia is very much a "friendly" country to the US in terms of trade/politics
The AP 45rpm was original part of the top 100 Jazz series by AP. They all had single jackets shoving two LPs into one jacket. The AP covers were not great.
Hi, thanks for the shootout. BTW, i noticed Kevin Gray always cuts a bit "less hot" (cooler?) than previous releases or old remastered. My guess is that he is so busy these days, he just takes the best care of his delicate cutting head because if trouble happens, he would be unemployed for a long period of time!!!
I think that your comparison is a perfect description of the house sound of analog productions and the house sound of Kevin Grey. I noticed when Kevin Gray does work for analog productions like the Prestige series it tends to stay more in that analog production house sound. And I do think that Kevin Gray often leans too far towards trying to get the most detail possible and sometimes loses that warmth and fullness in comparison to even his own work with analog productions.
I agree with your description as well. It seems as if a lot of KG mastering is a little to hot for my preference. Perhaps it may be system dependent. I am really glad I got my AP boxset when it first came out. Hopefully this new OJC series will bring some "new" hard to find titles done at a high level.
It seems to be the consensus from everyone that the AP45 gives focus to the piano while the 23OJC is balanced but with less audience noise. Im not too surprised about the tinnyness comment though. I felt the same about the Miles Workin OJC from Kevin compared to the smoother and slightly more dynamic 80s OJC. Maybe its the tape age catching up to us because Kevin rarely gives us this tinny kind of sound otherwise.
I have both of these releases and 100% agree on your take regarding the sound of these two releases. However, I prefer the color balance of the AP release, even if it's not the same as the original.
I purchased the Complete Village Vanguard Recordings (1961) a couple years ago. It says mastering by George Horn and Anne-Marie Suenram. I'd be curious how it compares with these new recordings. Any thoughts?
George Horn was the mastering engineer for the Original Jazz Classics series in the 1980s. Aside from a flaw in the particular copy I used to have, the mastering sounded quite good, so I'd bet that that collection of recordings sounds great. In my opinion, and at least on the 1985 vinyl copy that I used to have and the new 2023 OJC copy, I think the 2023 sounds better, but not significantly so.
I'd say it depends on which 80s OJC you have. My OJC was mastered by George Horn, however there was a problem with the first track. I understand that it was later corrected. If you have the corrected version and it has the GH initials in the runout, you're probably good with what you have
I know you’re channel talks more about the sound of a recording than the music on the recording Who mastered it, Where it was pressed ect but I don’t understand why people need 3 or 4 copies of the same recording!! I am pretty sure the difference is minimal between recordings!!
i agree with that, actually on all points. There are minimal differences between recordings and we don't need 3-4 copies. In this case, I'll be immediately selling the OJC because I prefer the AP. Normally, I'd then also be selling either the AP or the original but in this case I'm making an exception because the AP comes in a box set that I really want to keep, and my original will probably get few plays because it's a promo and I sort of only bust it out on special occasions
Kevin gray often runs the cymbals too hot which makes them sound thin and tinny. Drives me nuts. It's under the guise of "most people buying these will have a system that can handle it". Yes it can handle it and we don't like it. I hope this isn't too negative
Hey I have the new OJC release and there's nothing tinny about the sound. Have you considered moving those LS 50's away from the wall (and turntable) and putting them on stands? There's no way you can a make a determination on what something sounds like with your speakers pinned up against a wall and having the turntable on the same shelf with the speakers (even with that isolation) is a disaster. Not trying to be a troll but that set up is pretty rough...
@@TheFlippertube it would apply to every disc. I have had both the regular LS 50s and the Metas. And they need room to breath. There’s little to no soundstage depth and the Bass is not right with them against the wall. Not to mention the location of the turntable couldn’t be worse. If you put the speakers on stands to 3 feet from the front wall, you’ll be amazed at the difference.
so to clarify/respond, you're right to point out some of the inadequacies of my setup, and unfortunately some of them I can't get around. If I put my speakers on stands, which absolutely would be ideal, they'd have to be in front of vinyl shelving and the left would be in the narrow passage from the door to the hallway, blocking the entry. I do try and orient them as close to the front of the shelves as possible to allow for some (at least minimal) amount of distance. I do have a few methods of isolation underneath the speakers, and they are indeed located on separate cabinets from the turntable even though it looks like they are all on the same surface. I don't think little-to-no soundstage depth is fair when I can indeed hear it, and I've played many LPs on friends' setups which are more optimally oriented than mine, and I don't hear a significant enough difference at least that would cause me to change course. I'm always interested in moving things around though in order to seek improvements, but unfortunately my options for speaker placement are minimal given this is just a standard sized bedroom - which is actually one reason why I intentionally got the LS50 model because from trialing a few different options, they seemed to work better in the small space. Ideally I'd relocate my records to a different room and prioritize the listening in this one, but I just don't have the space available in the house. One of the ways I continue to justify the hobby with my spouse is contingent on it not spilling into other rooms!
Really, really appreciate the very thoughtful review especially the final conclusion thoughts on both editions.
I think the problem with the 80s OJC is that its cut flat off the tape which likely has a volume imbalance on the songs and needs mastering to be corrected.
Referencing the new ojc release as a Craft Release would be less confusing , otherwise great review, thank you!!
To each their own ears- but it’s funny to me the difference in the way audiophiles listen to these sacred recordings: and musicians do. Support the artists- listen to the playing, too. 👊💯
Totally, but when you’re comparing different releases, the playing is the same, the pressing and mastering are not.
Interesting comparison.I just got the new OJC and I thought it sounded great.I noticed what you said about the Bass extending or singing, it was really impressive.
I don't know, they're both amazing, but the hotness of the OJC I prefer over the hotness of the cymbals on the AP. They at once feel more live, but also are less appealing to my ears. But like, both are amazing.
The sound and detail of brush work on the first track on the drums is amazing on the OJC
Love your programming on vinyl.
I picked up a 2010 remastered CD used for $4.95. It sounds fantastic.
Great to know as I preordered the Vanguard record thats due out in August, hopefully more of the same.
a louder cut (not louder because of compression but because of level) will give you better dynamics. There is always a noise floor. Groove noise is inherent in vinyl.
I’m sure WCB as well as others preordered both Waltz and Village Vanguard - any of you had an issue where craft won’t ship Waltz until 8/25/23 as their policy is to ship all preorders together?
Great question, and I get the desire to group them together to save on shipping. In this case, I placed separate orders to not have to wait for the total order to be ready. In the past, I've had to wait something like 5 months because I made that mistake with something that was ready for immediate shipping and an advanced preorder.
FYI for anyone who is interested, I have a different 1985 OJC of Waltz for Debby than yours (mine has RE1 in the deadwax) and I didn't hear anything resembling the issue mentioned on the first track. This perhaps suggests that mine was a recut where they fixed the issue, but I'm not totally sure. I went down a rabbit hole trying to figure this out after that first Waltz for Debby video and I commented there at the time.
yea, that sounds like the probable scenario. Its funny how some of these little nuances continue to be discovered, where issues were corrected but just not well documented over the years
Thank you for your opinions. I am really wanting to add Bill Evans to my collection. However, I live in Australia. It doesn’t matter which way I go, buying either of these is expensive. Shipping the box set to Australia is a crazy price. There are a few for sale in retailers here for close to AUD$3000. So your description is valuable.
I think I’ll keep saving for the AP version and hope the store will take pity on me and give me a discount.😅
it's clear there needs to be better distribution options for music fans outside the United States. I don't know how we can call ourselves a truly global economy when import/export is so restricted with taxes, especially considering the fact that Australia is very much a "friendly" country to the US in terms of trade/politics
Still be cheaper to buy from USA .. shipping and tax included .
The AP 45rpm was original part of the top 100 Jazz series by AP. They all had single jackets shoving two LPs into one jacket. The AP covers were not great.
Hi, thanks for the shootout. BTW, i noticed Kevin Gray always cuts a bit "less hot" (cooler?) than previous releases or old remastered. My guess is that he is so busy these days, he just takes the best care of his delicate cutting head because if trouble happens, he would be unemployed for a long period of time!!!
I think that your comparison is a perfect description of the house sound of analog productions and the house sound of Kevin Grey. I noticed when Kevin Gray does work for analog productions like the Prestige series it tends to stay more in that analog production house sound. And I do think that Kevin Gray often leans too far towards trying to get the most detail possible and sometimes loses that warmth and fullness in comparison to even his own work with analog productions.
I agree with your description as well. It seems as if a lot of KG mastering is a little to hot for my preference. Perhaps it may be system dependent. I am really glad I got my AP boxset when it first came out. Hopefully this new OJC series will bring some "new" hard to find titles done at a high level.
It seems to be the consensus from everyone that the AP45 gives focus to the piano while the 23OJC is balanced but with less audience noise.
Im not too surprised about the tinnyness comment though. I felt the same about the Miles Workin OJC from Kevin compared to the smoother and slightly more dynamic 80s OJC. Maybe its the tape age catching up to us because Kevin rarely gives us this tinny kind of sound otherwise.
Nobody else has really mentioned the thin sound on the miles workin of OJC
@@chelillingworth9466 because few compare to the 80s OJC.
I have both of these releases and 100% agree on your take regarding the sound of these two releases.
However, I prefer the color balance of the AP release, even if it's not the same as the original.
I purchased the Complete Village Vanguard Recordings (1961) a couple years ago. It says mastering by George Horn and Anne-Marie Suenram. I'd be curious how it compares with these new recordings. Any thoughts?
George Horn was the mastering engineer for the Original Jazz Classics series in the 1980s. Aside from a flaw in the particular copy I used to have, the mastering sounded quite good, so I'd bet that that collection of recordings sounds great. In my opinion, and at least on the 1985 vinyl copy that I used to have and the new 2023 OJC copy, I think the 2023 sounds better, but not significantly so.
Have you any knowledge as to how the 2022 Waltz For Debby compares to the 1995 Analogue Productions HQ-180 APJ009?
I'm not sure, I haven't heard that AP edition before
Any comments on the 2023 OJC vs the 80s OJC? Is it worth the upgrade to get the new one?
I'd say it depends on which 80s OJC you have. My OJC was mastered by George Horn, however there was a problem with the first track. I understand that it was later corrected. If you have the corrected version and it has the GH initials in the runout, you're probably good with what you have
I appreciate more headroom in the cutting and mastering, personally. I'll pick this one up thanks!
Im very interested in the response to your opinion.
I know you’re channel talks more about the sound of a recording than the music on the recording Who mastered it, Where it was pressed ect but I don’t understand why people need 3 or 4 copies of the same recording!! I am pretty sure the difference is minimal between recordings!!
i agree with that, actually on all points. There are minimal differences between recordings and we don't need 3-4 copies. In this case, I'll be immediately selling the OJC because I prefer the AP. Normally, I'd then also be selling either the AP or the original but in this case I'm making an exception because the AP comes in a box set that I really want to keep, and my original will probably get few plays because it's a promo and I sort of only bust it out on special occasions
Kevin gray often runs the cymbals too hot which makes them sound thin and tinny. Drives me nuts. It's under the guise of "most people buying these will have a system that can handle it". Yes it can handle it and we don't like it. I hope this isn't too negative
Hey I have the new OJC release and there's nothing tinny about the sound. Have you considered moving those LS 50's away from the wall (and turntable) and putting them on stands? There's no way you can a make a determination on what something sounds like with your speakers pinned up against a wall and having the turntable on the same shelf with the speakers (even with that isolation) is a disaster. Not trying to be a troll but that set up is pretty rough...
I don't deny your recommendations about isolation, but it seems odd to me that an issue attributable to setup would only apply to one disc.
@@TheFlippertube it would apply to every disc. I have had both the regular LS 50s and the Metas. And they need room to breath. There’s little to no soundstage depth and the Bass is not right with them against the wall. Not to mention the location of the turntable couldn’t be worse. If you put the speakers on stands to 3 feet from the front wall, you’ll be amazed at the difference.
I believe he has multiple shelves placed next to each other and the turntable is on a different shelf.
so to clarify/respond, you're right to point out some of the inadequacies of my setup, and unfortunately some of them I can't get around. If I put my speakers on stands, which absolutely would be ideal, they'd have to be in front of vinyl shelving and the left would be in the narrow passage from the door to the hallway, blocking the entry. I do try and orient them as close to the front of the shelves as possible to allow for some (at least minimal) amount of distance. I do have a few methods of isolation underneath the speakers, and they are indeed located on separate cabinets from the turntable even though it looks like they are all on the same surface.
I don't think little-to-no soundstage depth is fair when I can indeed hear it, and I've played many LPs on friends' setups which are more optimally oriented than mine, and I don't hear a significant enough difference at least that would cause me to change course. I'm always interested in moving things around though in order to seek improvements, but unfortunately my options for speaker placement are minimal given this is just a standard sized bedroom - which is actually one reason why I intentionally got the LS50 model because from trialing a few different options, they seemed to work better in the small space. Ideally I'd relocate my records to a different room and prioritize the listening in this one, but I just don't have the space available in the house. One of the ways I continue to justify the hobby with my spouse is contingent on it not spilling into other rooms!
The cymbals are tinny. He got it a perfectly right.