How DOOM Eternal Redesigned Push Forward Combat | Design Dive
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 พ.ค. 2024
- In this 20th Design Dive episode we go back to one of our most popular topics: #DOOM.
Following its glorious resurrection in 2016, #DOOMEternal takes the franchise into new territory. Let's explore how it revitalises the series all over again, and the big changes it makes both for good and ill.
If you enjoy my DOOM videos, be sure to check out the full playlist of Design Dive and AI and Games episodes:
• The AI of DOOM (2016) ...
Chapters
[00:00] Intro
[01:19] Resurrection
[04:47] Rage Refactored
[08:29] Retaliation
[12:22] Reverie
[20:46] Reflection
[25:59] Closing
Much love to the team at @NoclipDocs for all their hard work. The complete episode of the @NoclipPodcast with Hugo Martin is a great watch and worth checking out.
• Designing DOOM Eternal...
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#DOOM #DOOMEternal #GameDesign - เกม
So um.... we had enough DEWM yet?
AI and Games, until it is done.
Never enough Duum
Never enough.
I'd absolutely love to see if you could take time to make a video comparing Eternal to other modern day shooters directly instead of just looking at the game's systems
Ok now i want a DUUM t-shirt
@@TimHoekstra Hmmm, good idea.
Doom Eternal taught me patience, ironically.
Shit... you've just explained my entire video in one sentence. 😂
There a local idiom here that translates roughly to "take your time but do it fast" :p
Eternal is best defined as a fighting game adjacent- built around knowing your enemy, managing resources, and combining different weapons and movement tactics to gain an upper hand. I'm in love with it's design to this day because it dared to do something interesting.
I described it to one person as "Like if DMC somehow got an FPS spinoff".
@@colbyboucher6391 true
@@colbyboucher6391 I don't think this would be accurate. Use Ninja Gaiden over DMC to better describe it.
@@theblobconsumes4859 Fair
@@colbyboucher6391 that's moreso Ultrakill since it's pretty shameless with it's inspiration from DMC with the style meter
Man, that intro still gives me chills. Mick is a fucking master.
DOOM Eternal is the one of the few games that I really enjoy for the past 2 years. There's no FPS game before Eternal that came close in terms of combat system and the power fantasy you get when mastering the skill required.
I don’t think most people will appreciate the core loop without diving a few minutes inside the Master Levels. You spoke of patience for the Marauder: imagine being forced to use a single weapon against it in a Classic-style progression of a much-harder version of a mission with redesigned encounters. Eternal’s fun zone is in the Master Level and it allowed me to appreciate each and every single detail: enemy behaviour, target to prioritise, knowledge of weapon, listening to audio cues, situational awareness, etc. Each time the Marauder was on the screen after I defeated him for the first time, I was smiling since I’d to switch gears. It’s the same for the Archvile who acts the same way as the Summoner… but the Archvile is much cooler. Also I can’t help but appreciate how you’re the single chess piece against 20+ demons on the board. The Doom Slayer’s anger is defined by the player’s focus, patience and knows when it’s time to become that relentless being of violence.
I keep playing this game from time to time to vent out the frustration. It’s been a relaxing game outside of the Master Levels which made me think and rethink the chessboard and I’m glad I went through each of them on Classic Nightmare. For some reason, I’ve patience for DOOM… but not for the Souls games.
This game was my favorite pve fps I ever played. I still get chills remembering my play through. I hope for more games to adopt their philosophy
now do it on Nightmare
@@sunbleachedangel Just beat TAG1 on Ultra Nightmare for the first time about 30 minutes ago
Doom Eternal is the only time where I finished a FPS campaign and instead of uninstalling the game or switching to multiplayer, I started up a new game on a higher difficulty and got right back into it. It does make me wish AAA wasn't so addicted to the "play your way" mentality these days, it usually just ends up with all the options feeling unrefined and mediocre except for one or two that were the dev teams personal favorites. Of course a smart dev would steer the player into the fun way of playing the game, but why have the unfun options be options at all? For every player that will get the hint and play the fun way that will give them the best experience, there is many more that will either miss the hint, or intentionally ignore it for some subjective reason and then blame the game when they aren't having fun. I know money is partly to blame, both in terms of budgeting during development and trying to attract the largest possible audience. But I do find that the games I remember most fondly, a vast majority of them have more targeted audiences than the average AAA, and are more restricted in the means of which you interact with the game and viable strategies. Return of the Obra Dinn, Outer Wilds, RE2 Remake, Factorio, Sekiro, and obviously Doom Eternal.
The “fun” way to play is different for everyone.
@@HogarTheBig That the problem. If your defintion of the fun in that game isn''t the same as the dev, you're going to get punished for it.
@@Sinebeast This is such a dumb argument and opinion. Every video game in history was crafted by a dev to achieve a general vision they wanted. Even sandbox games like Fallout New Vegas still steers players into its core game design, mechanics and rules. Can you name me a single Doom game that didn't push for fast aggressive combat based on movement? Within the Eternals combat and rules there is still a lot of creativity on how you can kill enemies, which weapon mods you want to use and what runes to use. There are also general playstyles some players like to standback snipe with precision bolt and long range weapons while others like to play more aggresively in the faces of demons. Some people like to fly around in the air using meathook while others stay more grounded.
@@Sinebeast You are the type of person to play call of duty and complain the devs are punishing you because you cant build things like in fortnite
Im not gonna lie, I played this game and its DLC on Ultra nightmare. Something changed inside of me. I dont know If Im traumatized, programmed or something, but whenever I see game footage of Doom Eternal, I have the buttons mapped in my mind. I cant help it. Just watching the gameplay makes me become stressed and start thinking immediately about strategies, ice grenade, flame and regular grenades, start blowing everything up, chainsaw and punch my way out. Doom Eternal is engraved in my mind now lol
I think anyone who's beaten the first DLC on Ultra Nightmare will have been permanently affected by it in some way, it's affected how I play other games as I now tend to play more aggressively while being able to make more decisions in that chaos.
The Marauder is a masterclass in combining lore and gameplay. The Marauder is a fallen Night Sentinel - every single one of them fought alongside the Slayer in his past, and they know how he fights. Their abilities and fighting style have therefore been tailored perfectly to his standard method - they even carry a dark reflection of his iconic Super Shotgun, because they've seen firsthand _exactly_ how devastating that is at close range. The only way to defeat them is the one thing that the Slayer has historically never done well: patience.
I'd like to maybe offer a different "FromSoftware" comparison. Listening to your arguments, especially as to why Doom Eternal is not the Dark Souls of shooters, reminded me a lot of how I sound, when I talk about how Sekiro is my favorite FromSoftware game. Compared to the other From games, there's almost no customization in how you play anymore. If you never want to learn countering and if you would never switch your great axe for a fast sword, then sorry, but you'll probably never have fun with Sekiro. Sekiro is optimized for that style of play and if you can accept that, it's an exceptional game with a tight game loop you could never recreate in the other From games, even if you would play it similarly.
So maybe Doom Eternal is just the Sekiro of shooters ;)
Great argument. I usually prefer to have some build customization, but Sekiro taught me (through many deaths) how to also enjoy a more focused experience. And, by the end, the sense of accomplishment was even greater, because it felt like I managed to beat the developers at their own game (even though I know they were silently cheering for me every step of way).
Funnily enough I played all the dark souls games almost exclusively with great swords/axes and shield with heavy armour, but then I absolutely loved Sekiro too. Totally get what you're saying though, it was a brave move from them to go from such open choice to a very defined, fairly restrictive combat style.
I think the more straightforward point is that Dark Souls is about taking on one enemy at a time, being patient, and resource management (flasks) over minutes. DE is about many enemies, constant movement, and resource management over seconds. And that the Marauder was a too jarring leap to Soulsian combat.
@@HJDSimon The comparison makes sense on the surface level but it falls apart on further analysis. While DE combat is more focused and intense even compared to previous Doom games the combat is quite flexible contrary to what same misguided people claim. I blame the overaggressive tips but thats beside the point. There are more options to kill enemies than the previous game simply due to the expanded arsenal and movement options. People seem to forget it has a difficulty slider, extra lives, cheats, crucible sword and BFG to bailout less skilled fps players to succeed and have fun in the game. Sekiro is more legitimately has less options than Dark Souls because it has no character build creator but its core combat is much more refined, brutal and uncompromising.
I think Doom 2016 spoiled me in a way Eternal punished me for. I found in 2016 that just enough aggression and movement could bull me through Nightmare difficulty without much more than the most basic tactical consideration. Eternal demanded a lot more thinking, and just being mostly aggro and speedy got my ass kicked.
DOOM Eternal has been an interesting beast for me to tackle recently. I find myself enjoying the hell out of it (pun absolutely intended) while I'm playing it, but when I'm not in it, I almost dread returning. I think a lot of it is that it's so mechanically complex that I sometimes forget some of the important bits to remember between sessions and it takes dying a bunch in a few arenas to get the rust out and get back into "the fun zone."
Doom Eternal is soooooo much fun. I must've died a hundred times in my first playthrough but most of them I immediately knew why. And the soundtrack is fire.
Thanks for covering this!
I love the editing!
Thank you! I spent *far too much time* finding clips I could fit together. 😅
The match-cuts in this video are 👌
Good video mate. Loved this game such a massive improvement over Doom 2016.
Yea Doom 2016 was good but people really overhyped it. I am glad they actually added some depth and made the game more challenging.
The best FPS to date, what a game
This video really reminded me of a lot of the conflicting thoughts I had when playing DOOM Eternal in 2020 and partly due to the Lockdown, I played this game a lot and thought about it a lot. You've summed up a lot of it in this video but I will add a couple of thoughts. I
DOOM Eternal has a fantastic combat loop but it mixes it with an OK campaign with some slightly clunky design choices.
There are a lot of things about the campaign that aren't that fun. The first few onboarding levels aren't massively fun and feel particularly punishing, but worse they actually don't teach the right lessons to players. The combat system is actually quite flexible and open to experimentation except the first few levels emphasise the opposite, by pushing you towards the weakpoint exploitation path, its very easy to just stop experimenting. See Cacademon, better sticky bomb it, even though the Ballista, Triple Rocket and Super Shotgun can all take them out quick. This isn't apparent until the freedom of the later half of the game.
Those ammo-drop angel guys need to be head-shotted, but its very easy to assume that means you need to use the Snipe-Shot or Ballista. Nope, you can head-shot with the Super Shotgun, if you aim right. The freedom of the combat is there (eventually) but its really not presented well by the game. I think this is exacerbated by the upgrade systems in the game, you can pick the mods you unlock as you progress, which gives the illusion of freedom of choice but realistically the game has a use for each of the mods, and as each mod has a purpose, why make them upgrades? I am sure there is a version of DOOM Eternal which made each mod an unmissable pickup, which drop at set moments, allowing combat encounters to be designed around how best to use that mod specifically.
The worst offender to my mind is the quick-swapping upgrade. Switching weapons is a core element of the gameplay loop so why is this an unlockable upgrade? I think frustration at the Maurader in particular could be split by those who embraced the quick-swap and upgraded it early and those who didn't.
I also have some mixed thoughts on the Flame Belch, is armour really different enough from Health to need this in the game? On the other hand it is fun to use, so this might be a case of complexity for the sake of it has a lot of value, I'd have to play version where its removed and health drops are increased vs keeping the Belch to know for sure.
In conclusion, I loved my time with DOOM Eternal and I enjoyed thinking about its design decisions as an armchair game designer a great deal, but I kind of feel like there is a better version of the game available. I really admire how ID took a punt on changing things so much for the sequel, it feels very different from DOOM 2016 and the two sit nicely side-by-side.
First time I've seen a kind of negative take that actually had justified criticism. All the tutorialization definitely made a lot of people feel more restricted than they actually were (Once I built Doomguy to never have to glory kill anything, in theory.) A lot of people say the *entire game* is just a gigantic turorial, that by the end of it you finally know what you're doing, and I kinda agree. I think what they should've done is just tutorialize the properties of things you have rather than telling you to do specific things. But that might be even more reading.
Personally I enjoy the Flame Belch because you've got more agency with it than you do with getting health back. There's decision-making involved in how you use it. And like you said, it's another button to push, I think part of Eternal's draw is that it's maximalist as fuck, even when it probably shouldn't be.
" I am sure there is a version of DOOM Eternal which made each mod an unmissable pickup, which drop at set moments, allowing combat encounters to be designed around how best to use that mod specifically." There actually is- it's called Classic mode, where you play through the master levels with your arsenal removed at the start of the level, which you collect back towards the end. Weapon mods lie in specific places of the map and are fully mastered
Thank you for this. Your paragraph about the first levels actually made me realize why I felt so restricted in my weapon choice and though about it as "hard counters" to enemies. I actually did not know that experimentation was viable! To me, it felt like the game was spoon-feeding me the solution for each enemy and the challenge was in remembering each one, or else...
Yes, this comment, actual proper criticism, thank you
This game is among the best fps games ever made. The mechanics for both the Slayer and the enemies are literally perfect
My favorite Doom game along with Doom 2.
Hey dude, thanks for adding high-quality subtitles to so many of your videos! I know it's often overlooked but thanks for putting in the extra effort, it means I can share your videos with my (hard of hearing) dad :)
No problem. Hope your Dad enjoys the video!
gotta leave a comment to support this even if I've nothing else really to add
big +1
Entering Flow State
Best fps game in years bar none.
Doom Eternal was the best game I played in 2020 I didn't think the 2016 game could be improved on but the team at Id software did it.
Honestly its my fav Doom game.
Beautiful editing to go along with the talk, really good.
Really cool and interesting video about flow!
I recently started reading a paper called "Dynamic Difficulty Adjustment (DDA) in Computer Games: A Review", but it quickly became a bit too complex to understand (damn you math).
I wish to learn more about this-- and how such state can be achieved in pve shooters.
"And if you are not solving it fast enough, you need to change to a different gun and shoot harder" love it :D
If I recall alot either monitor the number of deaths in a timeframe/attempt at a level and at certain thresholds make adjustments.
For example Crash Bandicoot's Boulder levels will make boulder slower as the player keeps dying.
Another way is having a skill value that increases/decreases based on certain criteria, like player death, failed mission/challenge conditions, challenge success, success with dying/taking damage, health and ammo being plentiful at checkpoints. The value determines difficulty based on the player's cumulative successes and if failure keeps occurring it self corrects. The original Spyro the Dragon games apparently used this system but I can't really notice in what capacity.
Edit: Except for Spyro 3's Spike boss fight which was notoriously hard due to the dynamic difficulty bugging out as a very hard value for that fight.
keep them coming nice.This channle has really help improve the ai in my game cant wait to show it to the world
Tommy is so excited that he rolls his r's harder.
Wow! What an amazing video. I can tell a lot of effort was put into making this. Good job guys, keep it up 🧡
Unfortunately I never got into the flow state of this one. I'm an og doom player and gotta admit this one made me feel ancient. Too complex, too many combat mechanics. I still think it's a brilliant game, just like I think Dark Souls is pretty brilliant. But yeah this wasn't my jam.
Same here. I really wanted to like the game but it simply didn't click.
It's okay, everyone has their own taste of playing certain games.
same mechanically and stylistically
really liked the dash weirdly enough, didn't help how weary and apathetic everything else made me feel
even the OST just didn't do it for me and It wasn't that different from the 2016 OST that I liked well enough
big _big_ letdown. even my enthusiasm for whatever comes next has taken a real beating
Dude the editing in this vid is fabulous.
Love your analysis. Great videos! Thanks for all your hard work.
This has the best fps combat I've played honestly.
Loved your work ever since the Alien Isolation and FEAR videos
This video was amazing. Thanks
Doom 2016 got too stale for me but this game was consistently amazing.
Great video. Loved this game soo much.
I love video games but aren't too interested about how they're made but I can't stop watching your videos. You turn what is probably fairly boring into something very interesting . I loved the AI videos on Alien Isolation and these doom videos are equally awesome. Now I want to go play the game. And thanks for using the word 'murder' it always sounds better in a Scottish accent. Great video , presented and narrated really well
Why would you think the video-game-making process is boring by default?
I mean, it's fine if you think that after learning a bit about it first, but the way you phrased your comment makes it sound like you brushed off the entire concept without even considering that there might be something of interest for you there.
Tied with Doom 1 this is my favorite in the franchise.
Really enjoyed this
Great video, except I disagree with the section about the Marauder. Seems like there's a clear threshold in the player skill where you can see that the lower half dislike Marauder's mechanic, and the upper half appreciates his design. I can't believe this topic is still a thing 2 years after release lol. Regardless, this analysis makes me want to replay DE.
I'm finally getting into this game, but it took a few restarts and finally deciding to just jump in on Nightmare difficulty for it to click. I think the gameplay loop really comes around on itself, where it relies on pushing the player to their absolute limits to be fun in the first place, and pushes that mentality on the player when the difficulty is tuned right. I found that the lower difficulties just didn't require using the full arsenal the same way that Nightmare does, at least for me. And if you're not forced into having to make those moment-to-moment decisions, you can end up falling on the same crutches that were described in regards to the 2016 reboot--one gun that you stick to and maybe a couple other side tools. It's definitely not as interesting that way.
Thanks for the vid
I think the discussion about flow states and the tightening of Eternal's play space really reinforces my argument that the first game is a much better introductory experience and has broader, more accessible appeal, while Eternal is a far more difficult and more niche revision.
Its tightened in the sense that games alllows for less exploits and the combat is more balanced. Its harder to cheese enemies this time around. With that said however Eternal combat is deeper and allows the player the ability to do more within its combat.
This is the very best game I played in my entire life and the true 10/10 game for me, not Elden Ring or whatever overhyped garbage they put out there nowadays
I bought Eternal day 1 and got frustrated with the seemingly endless pop up tutorials, so I turned them off and did just fine working out the enemies all the way up to the first Marauder fight. Without being specifically told the only way that you can beat him I tried all my different weapons and stayed aggressive in an attempt to keep him off balance and got demolished until the loading screen told me what to do. It's not that bad once you understand what to do, but I feel like there were some egregious missteps in the approach id took to teaching us how to play. Maybe that's because the Fun Zone is relatively narrow, but it still holds up as one of the best shooters I've ever played
You can kill Marauders in bunch of ways there is video on the 50 different ways to kill Marauders.
anyone else feel the same about the witcher 3 tutorials?
worse than useless when turned either on _or_ off
Actually the even the tutorial for the Marauder is not that good. Under the Mayo has an excellent video on you actually fight them.
@@chadnorseman655 Is it set to a Simon and Garfunkel melody?
One impressive thing is how decent Doom and Eternal plays on the Switch. By the time I was at the Dark Lord in the Ancient Gods pt 2 I could do the ‘super shotgun-sentinel hammer-turret chaingun’ combo almost as quick as PC! I often read comments where people say the difference between Doom and Eternal is too jarring and too difficult to master.
I actually found Doom was a bit harder than Eternal, the movement, speed and verticality really help you get out of harms way and once you get the flame belch, coupled with the redefined chainsaw mechanics It’s waaaaaay easier to pull yourself back from the most dire situations.
Such a great fuckin channel, is is precisely the stuff I love to nerd out in.
Really glad I found it- o/
Chainsaw is now a more Glory Kill-ified reload.
maraudeur made me loose my mind when i first encountered it, i didn't really understand its principle because i thought throwing all my guns at it would work, and i think that's the point, it's a slap in the face of people who started to master the equipment and snowball on the game and make them work on ennemy focus priority. The first marauder fight doesn't help it though as he's alone and i think it's him at its weakest in terms fun. When he's thrown arround an arena with pain elementals, hell knights and mancubus in the mix, then it becomes awesome, it rearanges all the ennemy priorities, rewires your way of moving and engaging combat and makes you discover a whole new way of play, the first slayer gate that includes the marauder is the perfect tutorial to him and should have been its introduction, even though i died again and again on this encounter, when i succeeded, i discovered that doom eternal is even deeper than it is, and now i love maraudeurs, it adds an element of masochism that fit this game beautifully, like hell, HURT ME PLENTY!!!
Dooom Eternal made me better at shooters
It's one of the best games ever made. Can't top it. Can't kill doom. That's why it's eternal baby!
As someone who hasn't played this yet, I felt the first half of this video was just a list of unfamiliar beastie names.
11:44
Me knowing full well that the phase 1 of the doom hunter can be easily gotten through by just blood punch super shotgunning the sled and that it's phase 2 can be easily put into a glory kill state with a single lock on rocket burst.
This also encourages quick play and shit.
Doom eternal is great man.
Doom Eternal is, ironically enough, my game of choice for relaxing after a day at work. Can't obviously shoot my boss in the face with a Super Shotgun, so some hapless demons will do nicely.
Two uploads in two days? Is it christmas already?
After this I'm going to lie down for about a week. Two videos in one month is officially too much.
This game is actually very flexible and has allows for a lot of creativity. The obnoxious combat tips that can disabled in the options menu sort of give a false impression of the game.
I hate it when games force you to play them the one exact right way. Constant ammo starvation & forced chainsaw usage combined with the forced weapon choice for certain enemies ruined the Doom Eternal for me. It's just a never-ending loop of glorykill -> chainsaw -> flamethrower on the trash mobs to gather up resources, take two shots at the big enemy with the exact right weapon, and repeat because you're already out of ammo.
This is the first Doom game I dropped unfinished, and it shall remain so eternally.
L then 😂
I don't care what many detractors say, Doom Eternal is a perfect FPS game. very few games i've played and beat have been kept in my library for its replay and sheer fun value.
even if i was not an OG Doom fan since the early 90s (making Doom 2 wad levels after school way back in1994 and onwards), it is very likely that this game (and the 2016 reboot of course) would have been two of my absolute favorite games ever.
Doom 3 was a good game, but i found myself disappointed because, except for maybe 2 or 3 sequences, they decided to go with a slower paced horror framework, and i don't think that is what fundamentally makes Doom what it is known for. it felt more like an FPS-Survival Horror game….set on Mars.
Anyway, back to Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal: i don't think these games could have been made any more perfect. they are just so much fun to play. the Push Forward Combat mechanics do the game wonders in terms of making it such a fun, addictive game to play no matter how many times i've died. in fact, i mind myself amused and laughing to myself nearly every time i've died; rarely getting frustrated if one particular area or combat situation concluded in my demise half a dozen times or more.
this was a truly solid watch. thank you for the effort and time you put into these videos devoted to Doom and Doom Eternal.
Funny thing is it looks like an adhd version of cod but plays like a much harder version since you cant just sit in a corner and heal up between kills.
First time youtube's recommended a video from this channel to me in a long time. What's up with that?
I blame TH-cam. I've been here this whole time. 😅
Finally
Can you take a look at the Thief series sometime?
Doom Eternal, put simply, holds the player accountable to play well. I will say, it is not required to truly master the game. It is an accessible game. If you find it too difficult, lower the difficulty. It's okay to do so if it means it helps you to learn the game. Also, don't compare Eternal to DMC or Dark Souls, but more so to the reboot Ninja Gaiden trilogy and Sekiro. There is no such thing as lacking player expression. Sylar does not play the same way as you and I do, and Trav Guy does not play the same way as Sylar.
It also still gives significant player freedom in the player's approach to combat style. Focusing on falters and stuns, playing with slow-mo, different varied types of combos that can be used for different purposes. There are always a high variety of ways to approach each combat puzzle and it is amplified by your understanding of the game. id Software failed to properly tutorialize the Marauder, but he was meant to teach players about the qualities of weapon combos and stacking high damage on short periods of time through using multiple weapons and weapon mods.
There's a variety of unique ways to kill the Marauder, and it depends from player to player. You can find ways to falter him beyond the opening and to significantly extend the amount of time that he is staggered for, allowing for a longer amount of time in which you can stack damage onto him. There is nothing about the Marauder that is antithetical - It was idSoftware's fault for not providing a proper tutorial, which Hugo Martin admitted to. You don't have to truly just 'wait', but if you wish to, you can. If you wish to take away the control the Marauder appears to hold - You can.
The mere choice of weapon mod and rune combinations alone makes it a much more varied game than most people will claim.
Sorry to bring this up but I couldnt help but notice how saturated most of the Eternal's clips were and randomly how undersaturated other Eternal clips were.
Amazing game
It’s interesting that in all the DOOM 2016 footage the player is constantly moving forward, maybe strafing to the side a bit to dodge attacks, but always staying right up in the enemy’s face. But in all the Doom Eternal footage the player is backing up like 80% of the time, plinking the enemy from a distance until a glory kill is possible then they grapple in.
Well, there are different playstyles. Mine is way more aggressive than in 2016. You can take a lot of damage in Eternal and immediately nullify it with the flame belch. Blood punch and other faltering tools like grenades help you avoid being crowded, you just need to be aware of your ressources. The meathook can beam you out of dangerous situations quickly, so does dash. So for me there's absolutely no reason to lay back or run away. I recently played 2016 again and felt naked without those tools which led to a more careful approach. But yeah, you can solve the problems Eternal confronts you with by quickswitching long distance weapons. And you can do both that and jump into demons' faces depending on the situation. It's my favorite shooter of all time. But at the end it's personal preference.
Than you never watched higher level Eternal gameplay like from Under the Mayo or Zero Master.
The only thing I hated (and you seem to have regurgitated unfortunately), is that the game tells you to stay at medium range against the Marauder. I found this completely ineffective as it'd just either shotgun blast me or axe throw me with little time to dodge.
I later realised you can reliably bait out the counter-able melee attacks by staying at long range, dodging an axe throw, then 90% of the time he will charge at you straight into that attack. This made him infinitely easier, and I wish the game had just said something like "missing an axe throw will make him angry and present an opportunity" or just not said anything at all. Following that tooltip lead to a lot of unnecessary frustration for me.
The games overtutortialization was a mistake but luckily you can disable them in the menus.
thats the guy from halo
Your accent is adorable
I had no idea James McAvoy is into gaming this much. Good stuff!
Thanks for at least addressing how the tighter focus can be alienating to some players.
Personally that interview really pisses me off. If players familiar with FPS games gravitate to one play style while less familiar players gravitate to a different style, I fail to see that as a "problem". If anything it just makes the game more accessible too a broader audience.
I don't mind that I'd wanted to tighten their focus on specific pkaystyles for the harder difficulty modes, but they could have eased up on those restrictions in lower difficulty modes for those of us that actually preferred 2016 (things like more ammo and a basic punch that can actually cause damage).
@@fuckso2342 : sorry, but no. Even in full context, he comes across as needlessly elitist and overly critical of people playing the in the "wrong" way.
@@EmeralBookwise good not every game needs to be accessible to everyone and a broader focus would have prevented Eternal from being the evolution that it is.
@@TheAustin007powers: It's not about the game being accessible to "everyone", it's about a direct sequel remaining accessible to the same kinds of people who played the previous instalment.
And to reiterate, I'm fine with hard modes being hard. Nightmare and Ultra Violence can still be the same evolution they currently are. All I'm saying is that the easier difficulties could have been less tightly focused and thus more accommodating to people who only played 2016 casually.
@@EmeralBookwise The Polygon video was very bad its very reasonable to try to avoid that again.
@@banes4908: If they'd managed to beat the entire game playing like that, then yeah, maybe that would be something to fix, but it was only the first level and only on the easiest difficulty. Even the newbiest of newbs should be able to accomplish that much.
That's not bad game design, that's literally how you make a game open and welcoming to brand new players.
Way better than Doom 2016.
Yeah the comparison with Dark souls is weird. If you have to compare it with a From game that would be Sekiro.
Also i am way in the anti-marauder crowd. The problem was that compared to the rest of the game what the game requested you to do with the maurauder was tedious and boring. Whenever they appeared i felt i was playing a slower less fun game. It worked really well as a boss but not as an enemy among the rest. Like ok game you got me: I am pushing forward and i am having fun. Why do you have to spoil that by telling me "ok now do the opposite of what i taught you was fun". No FPS can provide the highs that Eternal can, period. But i feel it provided a few big lows that the 2016 one never had.
Boi, wait till you discover Ultrakill
So understandably the Marauder was pretty tricky when he first appeared, his design seemingly goes in the face of that push forward combat that all the other enemies are tied to. Seemingly, being the key word here, but in actuality his design openly encourages players to get even more aggressive with him because he's still just as susceptible to staggers as every other non-boss demon in the game and the moment you realize you can chain staggers together the Marauder falls apart in seconds.
The Marauder is a great addition, because he still forces you to stay mobile and he has ways of staying on you, but he's not much more difficult over other new additions Eternal added.
Doom 2016 had pretty big lows. The start to middle section is great but the combat becomes dull, starts to show its lack of depth and the campaign introduces nothing new for the last 5 hours to become absolute tedious slog.
@@banes4908 While Eternal final levels keep introducing new enemies and had some best fights in the game.
@@banes4908 Doom 2016 combat balancing is also atrocious.
Love the game, but will never love the Maurader. But, compared to the final bosses of the two DLCs, I think it's brilliant.
Dark Souls is a terrible comparison to Doom Eternal, no idea why people kept making it. Doom Eternal is accessible, it has a difficulty setting for starters and if you die too many times, it offers you a boost item, which you can accept with zero penalties. Dark Souls on the other hand is about as accessible as a building that has 10,000 entrances, all of which are locked, save for one, and it expects you to work out which is the right one by trying them all.
Doom Eternal has multiple tooltips telling players how to Quickswap to reload cancel and yet very few players have figured it out. Based on the footage you've supplied us, you didn't either. No wonder so many people have trouble with the Marauder.
Personally, I thought quickswapping was something that required absurdly perfect timing - because I'm poor and my keyboard is cheap garbage, and it will only register 2 keys being pressed at once. Thus quickswapping while moving - and obviously you're pretty much always moving - failed the majority of the time, but I couldn't figure out why. Hence, assumption of not being able to hit what I assumed was frame perfect timing. So I ended up ignoring it as a game mechanic until I got stuck on a DLC fight, and then I had to brute force it by binding SSG/Ballista to mouse buttons.
I doubt I'm the only one who experienced this, or something similar. Not really a "failing" on id's part, but food for thought, anyway.
The problem i have with Eternal is that it went too far with all the complexity, because it actually forces you to play in specific way, You have very little choice or options. You have to use some weapon mods.
In the original games weapons felt powerful from you got them all the way to the end, without mods.
I hope when they make the new sequel, that they remove some of all the fluff. For a better more streamlined experience, where the player has some options how they want to play and what weapons to use.
No true at all. In you can kill enemies in many different ways in Eternal. You can use any weapon mod or gun you want in the base campaign.
Tactics against shield soldiers - th-cam.com/video/wHhL6Xu3jiU/w-d-xo.html
Doom Eternal Combat Creativity - th-cam.com/video/mMNCe4x7Ico/w-d-xo.html
Of all the design tweaks they did in Doom Eternal, I really hate that they took away the basic melee damage. Being able to instantly stagger basic zombies with a melee or two was a core part of my loop in Doom. Having to switch out to a weak gun, and carefully shoot a zombie to not instantly kill it was finicky, annoying, and slow. Plus, it just made normal melee near useless in the game, since it’s tiny stagger was almost always worse than just shooting more.
@@underbunz8562 Yea it also just takes two glory kills to recharge as well.
Bloodpunch is a huge part of high level play. It staggers,does a lot of damage, has an area of effect, and is quick. Using it in tandem with the super shotgun or chaingun is the way to go.
The melee punch in Doom 2 and Doom 1 also did barely any damage and was weak. Blood punch is best melee attack in any Doom game.
Why are you switching to weak guns to carefully shoot zombies when you can destroy them with rockets or guns that do splash damage ROFL?
I love the middle finger the devs showed to people unwilling to get good at the game. Guess it really is like Dark Souls in a way - it doesn't need to cater to everyone.
Yet it still mysteriously has a difficulty selection :)
Doom Eternal frustrated me a lot. I really like Doom 2016 as a power fantasy. For Eternal I played through the main game on normal difficulty including optional challenges in the levels (were they called Slayer Gates?) until the final boss, where I turned it down to easy in frustration after 10 or so attempts. There were a bunch of aspects that made Eternal far less fun for me than 2016:
- The over-reliance on hard counters for enemies. Every demon had one correct weapon or special ability you were supposed to use against them. If you were out of ammo for that gun (see also next point) or the ability was on cooldown (looking at you, freeze grenades and Whiplashes) you were SOL and had to flail around trying to kill the thing
- The ammo economy. The first suit upgrades I got went into ammo increases as much as possible. Running out on ammo for a weapon you really and forcing you to use something that feels akward to use is not fun to me. Sadly, the Chainsaw was at the top of my list for akward weapons. Even when I had enough fuel to kill something it still locks me into a too-long animation that robs me of any ability to keep an eye on other enemies.
- Most encounters felt far too much like a puzzle to me (I know that's what many players loved about it). It felt like having to play 5D chess what with juggling dozens of element in my mind (interactions of each weapon with each enemy, ammo,cooldowns, health, armor everyone's position in the arena, including pickups and traversal options). Maybe it's just me, but in a real-time game that's just too much
- The Marauder was pretty much trial and error for me. Even if I understood on a conceptual level that I should stay at medium distance, in practice that was difficult to accomplish for me in a game where constant movement is you best chance at survival. Also what is "medium distance" anyway? XD
- For me the flow state pretty much never happened. After a difficult encounter (i.e. having died multiple times) I never felt "That was awesome". Instead it was mostly "Good riddance that CF is over"
- Some platforming segments hit that sour spot of "enough speed and precision required when you know what to do" and "too fast to get your bearings when haven't been to this part before", leading to annoying trial and error
- Minor gripe: I would have preferred the option to choose when to use an extra life. Usually, when I die I'm in a terrible spot anyways. Reviving won't solve that, I would rather return to the checkpoint and keep the life for a situation where it can help me
Maybe some (or a lot) of this just comes down to my lack of skill at FPS and what my expectation of and FPS are, but in general, I like 2016 because I could play far "looser" in that game and still be successful and have fun. Don't get me wrong, i like difficult games. Souls-likes are one of my favorite genres (but my feelings on how dying feels different in a Souls-like than returning to a checkpoint is a whole 'nother topic).
The comparison to Dark Souls does not work in my opinion because you choice space is very different. In Doom Eternal you have a lot of options in the micro-space (e.g. which enemy do I attack with each weapon next) but almost no options in the macro-space (you can't just choose to do a different encounter right now). Souls games are more on the other side to me. On the micro scale, you are far more limited by what your build allows of makes viable, but on the macro scale you usually have several (or in case of Elden Ring, lots) of options of where or how you want to progress in the game in general.
EDIT: I originally had something here about how in the Noclip interview Hugo Martin sounded arrogant to me. After looking at some further context to those segments I can say I was wrong to use that term though I still personally dislike the idea of constraining alternate playstyles and of using the term "exploit" to describe them.
Yeah, the last boss is some bullshit. I played through the whole game on ultraviolence, no need for the armor that you get if you die too many times. I lost my patience with the final boss and had to accept the armor. The encounter is built around turning your back to infinitely-respawning enemies to shoot at the boss, giving said infinitely-respawning enemies ample opportunity to get a few cheap shots in.
@@fuckso2342 To add to this, Hugo's point isn't that different ways to play are entirely wrong. It's not engaging with game's mechanics is wrong. It's like if a puzzle box could be solved by wildly flailing it around across the room yet still somehow solve it that way. Kind of defeats the point of a puzzle doesn't it? Frankly I doubt whoever recorded that Polygon footage had fun.
@@fuckso2342 Fair, maybe that part was just my own frustrations with Eternal coming through. I just took a quick look at the Polygon Video and in the context of that video, I mostly get what he was saying. I was hung up on stuff like "corral them into playing it the fun way, the right way" and "hold the player accountable" . Because I at least consider myself to be "not good at FPS", which means that I only got through by using "exploits".
"Arrogant" was possibly not a good term, maybe it would make sense that I felt he was patronizing? To me in summary it felt like he was saying "You were having fun wrong in 2016".
My point about hard counter might be me mis-remembering, I did play the game back on release. What I remember is things like e.g. encountering a Whiplash, missing with my freeze grenade and then having to wait until it comes off cooldown because the Whiplash would literally dodge my attacks after I fired, as in between when I pulled the trigger and when the projectile would have reached them. For other enemies it felt like you could of course kill them with any weapon but very far less effective.
The difference between Eternal and a Souls-like was also one of expectations. With a Souls-like I am aware before even buying the game that likely it will have very difficult encounters that will require several retries, having to rethink my approach, maybe progress in a different area first. Also, for me at least death feels very different in a Souls-like than reloading from a checkpoint (but that could be a topic all of it's own).
With Eternal, I didn't expect something like that at all. I expected a continuation of the gameplay loop from 2016, which I really enjoyed and which did keep me in the flow state without repeatedly dying on the same encouter.
EDIT: I've now taken a look at more of that Noclip interview and the term "arrogant" was definitely to harsh. I have edited my orignal post to hopefully reflect my thoughts about Hugo's statement in a better way.
@@fireaza Yeah, it was definitely difficult for to even keep all parts of the boss in my field of view and keep track of what parts I already hit
@@plushiepenguin As I also said in my response to Casear P, in the context of that Polygon video what Hugo said does make sense. The Polygon footage was not even fun to watch, let alone probably play. I don't know the entire context of that segment from the Noclip interview, only what was in this video. From that, it seemed to me that the Polygon mention was more of a side thing and Hugo more broadly referred to everyone who played 2016 in way that was different from how it was intended (which probably would include me).
EDIT: I've now taken a look at more of that Noclip interview and the term "arrogant" was definitely to harsh. I have edited my orignal post to hopefully reflect my thoughts about Hugo's statement in a better way.
Doom Eternal is tailored to a very specific type of gameplay, twitchy, hectic, automatic, relying on reflexes and muscle memory rather than planning. For this it is a grandiose success, I am not really that type of gamer but I have to say I enjoyed it for what it is. I tend to prefer more chilled games where you can plan ahead, have pacing instead of balls to the wall 110% of the time, I like story and I skipped all story content in Doom Eternal because quite frankly it didn't matter and it was not interesting in the slightest, I like building an atmosphere, I like to feel a variety of emotions when playing a game, those preferences were not catered to in Doom Eternal. Is it a problem? No, not at all. It's a very good game, just not the full on direction I would have preferred the Doom sequel to take.
This game is like if "get gud"was an entire game. i hated it.
On the other side of the spectrum, I think the points brought up in this video explained quite well why the game rubbed me the wrong way. Granted, I'm not hating on DOOM 2016 or Eternal, but you explained it well, it tanks my creativity with it's combat being restrictive and more like a puzzle game.
Having recently played the old DOOM games and Unreal Tournament 99 again, it just feels much better for me than the new DOOM games do, because of the freedom of choice in engagements. I think the tightened scope of the flow state could be laziness on the part of the devs to make more parts of the game more fun, because instead of trying to make it fun, they force the player into the tight flow state, instead of trying to expand it. Of course, that's just me pondering, but regardless of how it came about, it's not a design I'm a big fan of. But hey, if you love the game, I won't stop ya. But I'll stick to Unreal Tournament 99.
The Chainsaw, Sword, Glory kills and Upgrades/Skills all feel tagged on, for a simpleton idiot like me lol. The art of perfecting simplicity has been lost, and instead many current games give you character progression in unlockable abilities and upgrades, instead of just simply challenging the players skills in flat movement and aiming. And on that final note, I was never a fan of Dashing. Just give me higher movement speed overall, it just feels better, but that's all my personal stance as a 90's kid.
If you got this far, thank you for reading! I hope it gave you a little insight into the other side of the coin, I don't hate DOOM 2016 or DOOM Eternal, they're just not my kinda game. Too much puzzle, too little freedom.
Doom Eternal felt like too much playing a grocery list to me. Like, I keep feeling disconnected from the action because I need a quart of ammo and a box of armor and maybe a couple glory kills if they're on sale.
@@Explodington Yeah, I feel that. Thanks for letting me know I'm not the only one!
@@fuckso2342 Well, for one: "Best" is a matter of opinion, and I can't confirm or deny if I share the same opinion until I get around to playing UT 2k4 and Quake 3 myself. They've been in my games backlog for several years now, so I guess I'll play them soon then, thanks for the recommendation!
@@yames8801 For the same reason you didn't just come in here and say that you do like the gameplay.
Rather than designing encounters to encourage using a variety of weapons, they force it with low ammo capacity. I can't use my usual tactic of taking out weak enemies first so I can focus on the big, dangerous one because I need those mobile ammo drops alive for chainsawing.
DE is a very good game and it's moment to moment gameplay is awesome.
@@Explodington Thank you, you are correct~
Tbh, I think the low ammo count in Doom Eternal negatively impacts the main gameplay loop. While Doom 2016 was fine, it took me multiple approaches to get into Doom Eternal because running out of ammo, having to use the chainsaw to replenish just isn't fun. After some reading online I discovered that there is a multiplier for the ammo count that can be adjusted via the console. Setting this multiplier to 2, effectively cutting the times one has to use the chainsaw in half, increased the fun tremendously for me.
It's supposed to be an incentive to managing your inventory and exploring the arena. Maybe it's because I'm probably way too used to Old Doom where a lot of sections will be asking you to be careful with what resource you use when and where so I didnt have much problem with this. Especially the early game in Eternal that had ammo pick ups everywhere and easier combinations of enemies.
Found I had the opposite problem returning to 2016. The dripfeed of weapons and upgrades being much slower and no infinite refill with the chainsaw making it far scarcer when you do get it. Then after a few upgrades you're set for life even when over relying on one weapon. SSG and Siege mode being the most popular but RL's extra damage upgrade with remote detonate clears rooms and you don't even need precise aim.
The low amount of ammo count is simply to encourage the player to keep switching weapon in Slayer's arsenal so that the ammo reduction will be spread across all your weapon. Besides, you have chainsaw fuel that keep recharging after you chainsaw. For me, it's not a problem.
No Limited resources are good thing but I agree the chainsaw gets boring after while. Shadow Warrior 3 had better way of solving this. They give you a katana that you manually slice fodder enemies instead of glory killing with chainsaw. Its feels more fast paced and quicker way of getting resources.
When thinking about it, I don't remember needing to chainsaw more than 3 times in an arena, and that's in tag 1.
After Wolfenstein New Order, Old Blood, and New Colossus (although New Colossus did adopt some BS woke messaging), I couldn't imagine anything topping the franchise...then ID/Bethesda drops the Doom reboot on us. Life is good...now where's the next revolutionary title?
Doom Eternal was too much, too fast for me. I only went about an hour or two in and never touched the "flow state".
Same problem. I gave the game 2 and a half hour but it didn't click for me either
It's okay. Some people just didn't like the fast push forward combat of this game and that's okay. For me, I enjoyed so much out of this game especially on higher difficulty.
@@trapenoone6904 When they showed it off with the presentation of 2016, I loved it! I thought that it would be perfect.
I burned out on 2016 about 2/3 of the way through the game. These two Doom games just aren't my style. Which makes me scratch my head. I used to do a lot of Deathmatch back in the 90s.
I found Doom Eternal to be a disappointment after the stellar 2016 title. Mechanically unpleasant. I felt less like I was playing a first person shooter and more like I was in charge of three bars that I had to perform certain arbitrary actions to keep full. Its mechanics laid its artifice bare in a way that undercut any semblance of immersion for me. I wish we'd got the mechanical and aesthetic sequel to Doom 2016.
@@capturedflame What are you smoking? 🤣I beat the game in my first playthrough mainly using supershotgun and ballista.
@@capturedflame You can dislike them game all you want but don't come in the comments claiming like you are an expert on the games combat if you barely played it.
What? Eternal was a mechanical sequel by every definition. It expanded on the mechanics that the previous game already did, increased the aggression, movement options and arsenal. Taking what you can from the enemy to replenish resources is the bedrock of push forward combat. So it quite hypocritical to whine that you have to manage armor, health and ammo because the previous game did that already. So you either played 2016 on lower difficulties or are lying because the game you are describing is not Doom 2016 on nightmare. You can also play Eternal is braindead fashion on lower difficulties as well. This post is garbage.
Nice try Polygon game journalist
Imagine literally shitting on Doom game for realism when Doom 1 and 2 where very arcadey. If you want realism go play Doom 3 which destroys Doom 2016 in terms of atmosphere and immersion.
They should decide if they want to make a shooter or a melee game, not this horrible hybrid. There no reason why you should want to get up close when you have a gun, so either get rid of the glorykill system, or get rid of the guns.
Well it's about being aggresive and it gives different tools for different ranges. The glory kills are there so you don't have to run around looking for health, and you shouldn't be obligated to always do them, only when your at about half health. The games not for everyone.
Lol this game is the very definition of a shooter. Glory kills are just optional finishers. If you want to kill demons without glory kills you can. Glory kills are soo beloved that Brutal Doom now has them lol.
Glory kills is the reason I got bored of the game. Also that wooden parcour... such a shame.
@@capturedflame I fail to see how its frustrating. The the wall climbing is bit clunky but the air dashing, double jump and pole swinging objectively fluid. DE is platforming is not as good as Titanfall but its better than Mirror Edge.
@@casterian1014 I don't understand the criticism of platforming. Sure some areas had a little too much but the movement is great. Its an improvement over the previous game platforming as well.
I know as you get older you have slower reflexes and less good at twitch shooter, but this is the first game where I experienced it. I'm only 38 and it's not a fun place to be.
In my opinion, the comparison with Dark Soul is really off because in Dark Soul I don't remember dying because because I missed a twitch action or failed at zone control.
What's makes Doom Eternal fail at being "the Dark Souls of FPS" (god I can't stand that meme) is that the game has hard counter enemies to the except for the fodder you have one or two weapons you're expected to us to kill the bigger enemies.
What's worse is contrary to Dark Souls where you can take your time and see what going to learn it. In Doome Eternal, If you stop killing a single second, you're basically dead if you're at the wrong place in the map or because you don't have the regeneration of your health generated by kills. It's almost an instant failure state where you can't recover.
That's why I don't like Doom Eternal because if I don't play the Oh so precious "way it's meant to be played" then I simply can't play.
I'm a Classic Doom player, let me blast faces I don't care about "your" way to play the game. "Brutal" Doom 2 is still the best Doom, and Doom 2016 is far superior game, at least there no is platforming and parkour.
The game has a banger soundtrack tho.
I highly doubt you played much of classics doom on higher difficulties. Classic doom had a specific mechanics that you had to follow as well it was just more simple game. If you stop moving you die as well. You also had to search for resources drops around the map to replenish resources instead of having chainsaw or flamer. Doom 2016 also had tons of platforming.
Only 3-4 enemies with hard counters and two of those( stone imps, Cursed prowler) suck. But other than that you can kill everything else with an combo of weapons.
@@planetmaker3472 Those are DLC enemies. In the base campaign every gun in the game is viable and is powerful against every enemy.
I finished Doom Eternal twice, and found it restrictive and annoying. The idea that there is one way to play a game, and to punish players who try and play it another way is pretty arrogant. I guess that’s what I prefer Dark Souls to this iteration of Doom.
How is it restrictive? I find Dark Souls more restrictive. You can kill enemies in a lot of different ways in Doom.
There are many ways to play the game holy hell is this opinion complete bullshit.
The game does not punish players for having different playstyles what the heck are you spewing?
The biggest issue is the game itself says you have to kill things in specific ways, however you don't, and it opens up the game alot especially once you get everything upgraded. Arc complex is were it gets real.
I loved Doom 2016, and I really didn't like Eternal, for all the reasons you expose here haha.
Doom 2016 is overrated
Was not a big fan of Eternal. I thought 2016 was better. The platforming in Eternal is not good (not unusual for First person platforming), buggy (I ran into a bunch of bugs trying to activate switches. I would have to punch them dozen of times before they would activate), and I don’t like how the developers railroaded combat design (I didn’t like the limited ammo and cool down management and roatation. If the developers didn’t wanted me to only use the super shotgun, they should have made the other weapons more fun).
Doom 2016 was meh for me, the combat was cumbersome, buggy ai, and i don’t like the lack of enemy types. It also over relied on the executions to get kills. Really bad experience for me. Glad they changed and improved everything in the next game
@@Majorblack I don’t like the glory kills in either game, too slow. But I do think that the environments are much much better in Eternal. Also better enemies (though as I said, the rest of the combat suffered. Great enemies though).
Noob detected 😆
@@Majorblack funny you say that because glory kills are relied on faaar more in Eternal than in 2016 because of the ammo economy
Makes no sense to me. How is only using one weapon fun? The developers intended the game to be about flow states, balancing enemy and player economy to force you to not just use the damn giant rocket launcher on every single enemy in the game because apparently that's fun