Thanks for watching. Please do hit "like" on the video, it really helps me out. And if you enjoy what I do here and would like early access to advert-free videos then please become a Channel Member: th-cam.com/channels/UVwT8zcS5Z_rYXnpomlbfg.htmljoin or Patreon supporter: www.patreon.com/dandavisauthor As I am a one-man team, your support will make a huge difference to the quality and quantity of work I can produce for this channel. Cheers!
I'd really enjoy a piece on sailing technology's early history. This video's information is a revelation to me. Thanks again for all the work you do to inform while entertaining us!
I grew up enjoying reading the written accounts of battles and wars. In my 40s I rather enjoy learning about how 99% of people lived between the interruptions of gangs of thugs. I love learning what the celts and Germanic people were doing parallel to what was happening in Bronze Age Mediterranean and Middle East. I feel Northern European history is akin to subsaharan Africa history; unsung, we must find it in the ground. Do you think it’s plausible the luxury resources of tin in Cornwall and amber in Scandinavia were responsible for the independent rise of both the celts and Germanic cultures? Cultures propagated by the elite warlords who controlled those resources? Love your channel. Keep up the good work!
For your information, mail armor has been disproven for Hjortspring. It has been confused with a mineral precipitation. See Martijn A. Wijnhoven recent book on the topic. Otherwise, great video!
Part of the reason his channel isn’t bigger is surely because he debunks “fun” alt-history theories like Nordic copper colonies in the Great Lakes rather than indulging them.
Being a ships enthousiast, and wrking as a professional boatbuilder, I rarely have seen such an accurate display of what was, might have been and could not have been about boats, boatbuilding and sailing with them. In particulair archeologists have a tendency to misunderstand boats as they rarely inform themselves enough by boatbuilders, sailors. My appreciation for this! And of course I would love to see more videos about these ancient boats!
There's a fantastic anecdote about the viking era ships found in Roskilde and their subsequent reconstruction (the project is still ongoing and well worth a visit). Archeologists had found an implement that they thought was ritualistic in nature for reasons XYZ. They could absolutely not make any sense of how this implement was used, or even how the different pieces of it fit together. At one point, a builder who knew one of the scientists took a look at it. He then promptly concluded that it was actually a hand-cranked drill and that he had a similar one in his toolbox today.
The weird prow on the ships made no sense to me until I realized they would often be beached, or dragged over obstacles in smaller rivers, or portaged. The lower projection on the bow helps getting up and over obstacles and also provides something to hang on to for dragging. I think this is also what is going on in the cases where there is a vertical strut between the two bow projections: the strut would be a perfect handhold for dragging the vessel.
Would it also be good for landing on a beach? Cos I guess they wouldn't have had a peir built to tie their boat up so they would need something to dig into the beach and a top one for somone to grab and drag? I thought maybe it was like a thing to dig in where you wanted to get off cos if it was just flat you'd only ever be floating and its really hard to get off a floating boat unless it digs in to the sides or the sand and gets stuck.
All the (later) Scandy boat launches of some hundreds of metres distance usually, and portages, were by masses of people lifting with their backs to the hull. I really doubt the idea that the raised prow (if that's what it is) is some sort of Samson post.
@@DestinationBarbarism He doesn't "Hate" Europeans. That's a weird accusation against him. Sounds like you're not being forthcoming. I have seen weirdos throw hissy fits cause he uses B.C.E. or doesn't subscribe to nonsense that certain individuals believe in.
I remember in elementary school in the 70's the teacher telling us about the Bronze Age, so I asked him, that since tin is only found in a few locations in Europe, it implies that not only those, in his words, primitive people would not only need to understand metallurgy, know where and what ore to mine, but that bronze found everywhere implies that there must be trade routes. He taught it off. Apparently he did not grasp the implications. The Scandinavians building their houses from wood and not out of stone, is logical, loads and loads of easy availability of wood.
Even during the mid stonage there was fairly long trade routes with then valuable material. For instance the cross alps trade roots as proven by the ice man found there. Also in southern Scandinavia there have been found stone dated from the stone age that is not naturally from that area but rather from continental Europe. Those objects had to be incredibly valuable, specially the one land transported. While transporting on sea may be a bit slower, the route is a bit steigther and a one man canno can still carry quite a hefty load. The issue is of cause that who ever is transporting those would also need to transport food and water for probobly weeks at a time
@@KokkiePiet I´m making a framework for a possible future game. I have it currently set in 5 ages (stone, Bronze, Iron, Industrial and Information, i have skipped medieval intentionally). Each age is set in 4 different sub ages, that i try to match as closely as i can to the actually sub ages in reality, I worked throw something like 90% of the frame work of the stone age. I have the work name stone age 0-3. Where the game suppose to start with the stone age 0 fully locked (hence the name 0). They should really be called the stone age, the flint age, the wood age and the farming age. In the first part there is basically no way of transporting short of just carrying it, sort of kind of true in the second age. In the third age you can sleed things on the ground. Only in the ver tale end of the last part of the stone age (farming age) where something even similar to a wheel turn up. Granted, by that time the boats is getting pretty usable. Its really actually not the invention of the wheel, but of the bearing. I have something like 200 items of development before the wheel. And that don´t even include domestication of maybe 100s of animals and plants. At the same token, for the industrial age (that i have not made the frame work yet). there is a lot of work before railroads. First there a full bunch of advance mechanical components, then there is the steam fluid pump that use steam to pump non mechanically. Then there is the steam mechanical pump, then the over pressure pump than the high pressure one. And its like 50-100 years between each of those. Interesting, the steam turbine was actually developed during the industrial revolution, not during the modern age.
As much as they traded and traveled on land and sea in the bronze age, surely Nordic people witnessed a Minoan ship's mast. There is no way 2000 years went by and mast were still a secret.
Makes sense that they would have built ships as big as they could, while overseas markets were healthy: bigger ships can carry much more cargo, and this would lead to a drop in transport costs, meaning that all parties in the trade for e.g. amber would benefit, so they'd continue increasing the size of their ships to the limit of what technology could do at the time. Fascinating stuff! Thank you for this video.
Very interesting. I'm Swedish and have seen some of these boat petroglyphs "in the flesh." You provided a level of realism and context I have not seen before. Thanks much!
@@sleazymeezy No Phoenicians in the bronze age. Actually architecture draws the line between the Canaanites and the later descendant phoenician culture with the bronze age collapse and dawn of the iron age a few hundred years later.
You have one of the best history channels. Please make sure you narrate all the videos. Those are when it is the best. Thank you for your hard work. It does not go unappreciated.
Yes, the Finnish coast has been part of the Nordic cultural, trade, and even genetic zone pretty much since the ice melted, thousands of years before either the Germanic or Uralic languages. And it never really stopped. Don't get fooled by them speaking a weird language.
If you ever visit Stockholm I can recommend a visit at the shipwreck museum, Vrak. It's nextdoor to the Vasa museum and have a good exhibition of bronze age shipwrecks found in the Baltic sea.
I used to watch this channel all the time before I had a TH-cam account and I’ve been looking for it for over a year now. So happy I finally found it again. Dude your videos have reinvigorated my love of history like nothing else. Thanks for all the great work you do.
It strikes me that a tall pole in a boat would be good for sighting land, hugging a coast, or watching out for submerged rocks. But when you see rigging or an actual sail in these glyphs, that seems pretty conclusive evidence for wind powered vessels to me.
That's what I'm thinking. If those aren't sails, what are they? And if their trading partners in the south had sails at this time, why is the notion that the Scandinavians also used sails so strange? If most journeys were by river, it makes sense that most of their boats and ships didn't need sails even if some of the wealthier chieftains occasionally built larger ocean-going ships.
@@rdklkje13 as you see by the map of these carvings. The south eastern Scandinavia has boats with sails. Which would imply they are the part that bothered with them, most likely because it was the last safe harbours and settlments you had before you headed into foreign lands. And most likely where sails were introduced. Rowing was still faster, way faster than any downwind sailing could accomplish. And closer to home you have many places and reason to stop and trade, all within a day's paddle. But further south, facing the rougher coastal seas and cultures that you couldn't be entirely sure was safe to stay long at. A sail was essential to rest and recuperate in-between short foraging expeditions that ensured you weren't taken advantage of by opportunistic locals.
@@MrEmioskRowing, esp. fast rowing, needs manpower. As a trader you don't want to feed many mouths. So rowing was more likely used for war ships or pirates, but not over a long time, because you don't want your men beeing exhausted when it comes to battle. But i have to admit, traders in ancient times could also act as pirates and vice versa.
We've spent all of our existence as wanderers, there's no reason to think that water would slow us down for long . It's just a matter of how far back in time and time again we've got to rediscover ourselves. Excellent presentation, I've always liked this sort of history. Thx. 👍
Actually water sped us up. Given that most of the land surface was wildwood, not carefully managed woodland as most is today, the main inland routes were ridge-ways where the forest was lighter or absent, above the valleys which would have been much more marsh than our preset experience. The navigable rivers, and the coastal sea's were the motorways of the ancient world.
Thank you for these wonderful videos on the Bronze Age and ancient history. I am a Minoan enthusiast and would love to see a video on Mediterranean seafaring.
Spend ANY time paddling a canoe on a lake, and the idea of a sail is not some flash of genius. It's intuitive. Two people in a canoe with a large cloak attached to two paddles are more efficient than using the paddles as intended, when the wind is at your back. Paddlers QUICKLY discover this. The technology holding back ubiquitous use of sail probably has more to do with textiles technology than anything else. Sails were more valuable than the boat, especially as they were made of wool or hemp.
Something to consider with the largest vessels, both Bronze Age and Viking Age, is that they often stayed close to home. Medium sized boats seem to have been more likely to be the work horses, with the big boats kept as a flex to impress the neighbours.
It might be that they did not routinely put the sail up except when they had a good following wind on the open water. Even in the Roman era, the Armoricans depended on making their (leather!) sails fast with lines to the sides of the vessel. This meant they could really only run pretty much in front of the wind - tacking ability was limited. (The Romans learned to disable the Armorican vessels by cutting these lines.)
Well one would probably row out to point X where you are clear of the headlands, and then pick up the prevailing wind. So the mast is not just there for random gusts.
I would love to see that video, and I am really glad you took the time to mention the Old Copper Culture here in North America. The things they did with native copper were really something, and people forget that pre-columbian cultures were often sophisticated metalworkers who just chose not to use iron because obsidian was abundant. They made many things in gold that were then stolen, but the stuff that remains is amazing.
That was very interesting. One thing about sailing, is if you get into heavy seas under sail, your vessel "works" a lot. Working means racking and twisting through the structure of the vessel. The mast and stays, are like a long lever, the foot of the mast is sitting at the keel, and the stays are fixed wide on the sides, and the whole lever of the mast works back and forth. (In a modern vessel, you are not in danger, but I absolutely believe that reconstruction you showed would eventually pound its mast heel down through its keel, if it kept the sea in rough weather.) Now you add the rise of the sea, the wave striking with increasing force as the seas get heavier, and very likely from across the bows at an angle . . . if it was GOOD weather you can decrease the angle the waves are hitting you, but as the weather gets rougher, you are often constrained to accept more of an unhappy set against the waves and it increases the pounding on your vessel dramatically. Even modern vessels suffer from this, as soon as you "shorten sail" in heavy weather, the whole vessel stops creaking and squeaking. An if you drop the sails entirely, an run the motor, the difference is remarkable. You don't have that effect when you are rowing, the oars themselves are mobile, not anchored to the side of the vessel, are smaller, are spread evenly, an have people attached to them as a kind of practical shock absorber. And you have not got the long length of the mast working away in one place. I think what you probably had was vessels that COULD spread a sail in relatively calm water, with the wind from astern, but at the first hint of foul weather, went back to their oars, and that is why the depictions are almost all of oared vessels.
That might be a problem with a fixed mast, but what about a removable mast that would be used in fair weather, but removable in stormy weather. In fair weather conditions you sail, while in storms or foul weather you paddle. The medieval period Nordic vessels I’ve seen suggest the sort of arrangement I have described above.
@@reggiebuffat Yeah, that is quite likely in the case of the smaller craft he talks about. The larger ones I believe would certainly have had to have auxiliary sail from a mast. You don't have to take my word for any of this, look at the PRACTICAL designs and the upper limits of the Greek and Persian vessels. And the relatively recent historical record, of oared galleys in Spain and the Barbary states, explicitly confirms that they didn't do well in rough seas and high winds. What happens is they lose steerage, i.e. their head gets knocked off the only safe course for them in heavy seas which is into the wind and they ship waves from abeam, they have 70 or even 100 oar-holes a side *Glub glub glub*
@@uncletiggermclaren7592 The suggestion was that they had paddlers not oarsmen. Thus relatively low free board, and no oar ports. I'm also surprised that they did not seem to have decks which would seem an obvious strengthener of the hull. I presume the technique was step a mast and sail if the weather permitted, and if the weather turned sour find shelter in the coast.
@@harrymoyes5069 Yes, paddlers for the Scandinavian ones they have found actual proof of. I was talking about subsequent, virtually modern history ones that we have a lot of data for. We have detailed records of examples, in the Med, there used to be hundreds of quite substantial banked-oar galleys of the 25 to 30 meter size. Mr Davis speaks about that as theoretically the largest there may have been in the North. And in the detail records of combat between oared galleys and Royal Navy and American Navy vessels, they are remarkable as being fair weather, short ranging vessels. Further back, we have records of massed galleys in Greek and Roman times, and I have read accounts of whole fleets of them foundering because bad weather caught them.
A video on the Sailing ships in The Bronze Age of the Mediterranean would be wonderful. The method of Naval Archeology that we Greeks used to rebuild the Minoan boat now found in Chania Crete . Is very similar to that used by the Scandinavians researchers to rebuild the Hjortspring Boat. The Greek used drawings found on walls and vases to get an insight of how the boat was built.
Wohoo my favourite bronze age complex to learn about! Although that's parly due to there not being much to learn about the Nordwestblock complex, just to the south west of the Nordic bronze age, yet.
I’m a maritime studies student, and I’ve taken multiple classes on ancient seafaring and ship building. My Viking archaeology class was one of my favorite! Your video brought me back to those classrooms and made my week. Thanks for uploading.
Nice to see someone studying in the field commenting.. Did you cover Polynesian voyaging? Whether you did or didn't, can I recommend two lovely & well researched recentish books: "Vaka Moana" published by the Auckland Museum/Bateman and "Pathway of the Birds", published by Bateman/University of Hawaii. Wherever you are, you can at least find them by library interloan. They're well researched, referenced, and lovely to look at too!
Absolutely fascinating stuff. I live in hope of a Nordic Bronze Age shipwreck discovery from say a thousand years earlier than the Hjortspring. Must be out there somewhere...
Cheers mate. Yeah fingers crossed, that would be amazing. The conditions would have to be ideal. Maybe in the cold waters of coastal northern Norway, or in a silted over river mouth in Jutland.
Thanks for this one. I love it. Also, thanks for turning me on to the Ancient Americas channel. I can already tell I’m going to enjoy it, just by looking through the titles.
Because the government and media there hates their native White European heritage and anything that makes us more deep and interesting must be suppressed
@@pendragon6207 Sad to hear about the under reporting of archaeological finds in Sweden. I myself find it fascinating, when new findings of our ancestors are discovered, and new information might be obtain about the past.
I've always been fascinated by Tacitus's account in his "Agricola" were he breaks down his theory of the ethnicity of the various British Tribes! He describes the Caledonii and compares these people to the Silures who lived in what is now modern Wales: "Who were the original inhabitants of Britain, whether they were indigenous or foreign, is, as usual among barbarians, little known. Their physical characteristics are various and from these conclusions may be drawn. The red hair and large limbs of the inhabitants of Caledonia point clearly to a German origin. The dark complexion of the Silures, their usually curly hair, and the fact that Spain is the opposite shore to them, are an evidence that Iberians of a former date crossed over and occupied these parts." I have always been of the mind that That Tacitus was talking directly from personal experience and his assumptions though often rebuked by later historians always seemed at least to myself to have a sound logic. We can presume from what we know of Tacitus that he was extensively traveled in Rome's Western provinces and was in a position to make this logical assumption when applied to the Tribes of the British Isles. It is now more or less accepted by both historians and archaeologists that the "Celts" or "Keltoi" were not one ethnic group but several whom had adopted both cultural and linguistic traits which marked them out as "Celtic" as opposed to Ligurian, Iberian, German or Latin for example. So it seems to me Bronze Age seafaring Scandinavians and Germanic peoples did indeed sail west over the North Sea in their advanced ships and like in later ages would surely make landfall in what is now Eastern Scotland and Northern England. Over the years they adopted a mixture of indigenous and Proto Celtic customs and by the time Tacitus records them to historical record that the Caledonii and the Silures from different ethnic origins are both linguistically and culturally very much part of the greater "Celtic La Tene" culture that dominated the Central and Western parts of Europe before the Roman Conquests.
The Welsh still do have a bit more neolithic and a bit less Steppe in them than their neighbours to either side. Still, if you look at the northwestern & western shore of the Iberian peninsula, let’s say Galicia - it’s pretty much directly north to hit the Irish sea and the Silures on the Welsh southern coast. If you miss, even by quite a lot, you still hit Britain or Ireland somewhere.
Excellent. Well-researched and very appropriately illustrated with a clear, unambiguous narrative. Ne of the best summaries I’ve seen on the subject. Before retirement I worked in and for various maritime museums and recently visited the Nat. Mus. of Denmark to see the Hjortspring boat. Regarding the use of sails, this may have been a fairly early development as simply standing or sitting up in a small boat will give the game away. After that it’s all just tweaking. One of the limitations of ship length is the method of securing elements together and the invention of the hogging truss to alleviate sagging in a seaway. I wonder what proportion of the the petroglyphs illustrate masts, yards and sails. Thank you for a very satisfying video.
Excellent! Also I can't believe I've already missed another video from you in the recent past - I have a lot of catching up to do. Amazing content as always.
Some excellent scholarship in this video, presenting the collected evidence and offering your thoughts, without overstating how likely they are. The link to other, related content that covers something you're not as knowledgeable about is also extremely professional. Very well produced!
Two thoughts 1. Those claiming there was a transatlantic trade at the time are doing so because for their alternative history views, they need one to have existed. I was one as what's left of my videos (the ones I don't now completely disagree with) would show. 2. Is it possible that sails were relatively common, but only as removable structures? The first sails wouldn't have been very good, so they probably only worked in perfect conditions. So, the mass/frame would have been something that could be stored away Great videos. I often rewatch them, just to remind me of everything stated. That's something I only do with about 3 or 4 other channels
Thank you. Yes I believe you're right about removable masts and sails, they speculate on this in the paper(s). And yes the alt history / pseudo history crowd are pretty committed to prehistoric transatlantic trade idea, despite the lack of evidence for it and much evidence against it.
Dan, thanks for another wonderful video. I have been a subscriber for... Well long enough that i know you are an author of some of the best stories of mans conquest of the the step lands and each other😮 Thanks Dan.
Bronze Age, boats, skepticism, shout out to other good channels... Wonderfull! The carving in the living tree is new info for me, and a very interesting one; thanks. Can we hope for a comparison video on mediterranean ships?
THANK YOU FOR ALL THIS DATA... VERY VERY INTERESTING... have studied some but this is so detailed and some of it new ... to me... the illustrations are fantastic... and your maps and explaining the sea level up and donw and lifting of the land etc.... very complete... Free spirits they were... then... very long ago :-)... not like today... !!!!
I’ve always found it difficult to believe sailing technology did not reach Northern Europe until the early Middle Ages. I also find it difficult to believe that the pre-Roman Britons/Irish didn’t have it given the Broighter ship and the stories of the Venetii swan-ships which fought Caesar in Gaul. Sailing ships might have been rare prestige items, but I’m sure they existed in these places.
I really love your skepticism here, really one of the reasons why I love your channel. I'm not entirely convinced by the rock carvings cited are really that great evidence for sail, even though this topic is really interesting and it is a really good inquiry to explore! However, I think the shapes on the boats of the rock carvings, cited in this paper do not necessarily have to represent sails, at least not all of them. The carvings in the study are taken out of their contexts. I think many of these lines that are thought to be a sail could refer to events happening on a boat, either mythical or real. Like something being carried on a boat. Many scholars here in Sweden agree that many Bronze age rock carvings in our country, often are narrative, sort like a comic book. One myth often depicted on Swedish Bronze age carvings (and in other European countries) is the story of the moon (and/or the sun) being stolen by someone (a god or evil being) and put on a ship, then often being hidden in the sea. This myth is probably depicted on many of these carvings but interpreted as "a sail". The stealing of the moon is very probably featured on the Kivik grave carvings. In Finnish mythology the stealing of the "Sampo" - a mystical machine, is a similar myth (where the Sampo ends up on the bottom of the sea and spews out gold and salt). I think this study "cherry picks" several carvings out of their narrative, but I understand it's a very hard thing to study as we do not have the "correct" interpretations of the carvings. They are most likely lost in time forever. However: people who know this stuff should really go ahead and study it further!
Please do a video on bronze age Mediterranean ships! I absolutely love your channel! Your research is at a level miles above at of other history / archeology channels. I usually don't comment on channels. Unless I have a question, or something new to provide. But I had to on this one. Please do bronze age Mediterranean ships! Pretty please
In the third millennium BC , ancient Scandinavian people was able to make ships with the same construction techniques like Viking in the first millennium BC! They were absolutely very expert! 🙏
Thank you for your work, I always enjoy your videos. Are you planning on maybe making interviews with the authors of the papers you discuss? I think you would make an excellent interviewer!
Thanks for watching. Please do hit "like" on the video, it really helps me out.
And if you enjoy what I do here and would like early access to advert-free videos then please become a Channel Member: th-cam.com/channels/UVwT8zcS5Z_rYXnpomlbfg.htmljoin
or Patreon supporter: www.patreon.com/dandavisauthor
As I am a one-man team, your support will make a huge difference to the quality and quantity of work I can produce for this channel.
Cheers!
I'd really enjoy a piece on sailing technology's early history. This video's information is a revelation to me. Thanks again for all the work you do to inform while entertaining us!
I grew up enjoying reading the written accounts of battles and wars. In my 40s I rather enjoy learning about how 99% of people lived between the interruptions of gangs of thugs. I love learning what the celts and Germanic people were doing parallel to what was happening in Bronze Age Mediterranean and Middle East. I feel Northern European history is akin to subsaharan Africa history; unsung, we must find it in the ground.
Do you think it’s plausible the luxury resources of tin in Cornwall and amber in Scandinavia were responsible for the independent rise of both the celts and Germanic cultures? Cultures propagated by the elite warlords who controlled those resources?
Love your channel. Keep up the good work!
It amazes me that the Nordic bronze age people, are given credit for accomplishing such feats in today's politically correct world.
For your information, mail armor has been disproven for Hjortspring. It has been confused with a mineral precipitation. See Martijn A. Wijnhoven recent book on the topic.
Otherwise, great video!
Again. Masterful. Thank you, again.
I'll never understand how this channel isn't huge. So so good. One of my few must-watch TH-cam channels.
Thank you so much 🙏
Same!!
Same for me!
Part of the reason his channel isn’t bigger is surely because he debunks “fun” alt-history theories like Nordic copper colonies in the Great Lakes rather than indulging them.
@@LookToWindward yeah , the price of integrity
Being a ships enthousiast, and wrking as a professional boatbuilder, I rarely have seen such an accurate display of what was, might have been and could not have been about boats, boatbuilding and sailing with them. In particulair archeologists have a tendency to misunderstand boats as they rarely inform themselves enough by boatbuilders, sailors.
My appreciation for this!
And of course I would love to see more videos about these ancient boats!
Thank you. I think the lead author of these papers is a sailor.
There's a fantastic anecdote about the viking era ships found in Roskilde and their subsequent reconstruction (the project is still ongoing and well worth a visit). Archeologists had found an implement that they thought was ritualistic in nature for reasons XYZ. They could absolutely not make any sense of how this implement was used, or even how the different pieces of it fit together. At one point, a builder who knew one of the scientists took a look at it. He then promptly concluded that it was actually a hand-cranked drill and that he had a similar one in his toolbox today.
@@TheNinetySecond Wonderfull, thank you for sharing, I did not knew this one!
The weird prow on the ships made no sense to me until I realized they would often be beached, or dragged over obstacles in smaller rivers, or portaged. The lower projection on the bow helps getting up and over obstacles and also provides something to hang on to for dragging. I think this is also what is going on in the cases where there is a vertical strut between the two bow projections: the strut would be a perfect handhold for dragging the vessel.
Yes exactly right, they talk about the ship handling aspect of the horn projections in the papers.
Would it also be good for landing on a beach? Cos I guess they wouldn't have had a peir built to tie their boat up so they would need something to dig into the beach and a top one for somone to grab and drag? I thought maybe it was like a thing to dig in where you wanted to get off cos if it was just flat you'd only ever be floating and its really hard to get off a floating boat unless it digs in to the sides or the sand and gets stuck.
@@DanDavisHistorywhich papers?
All the (later) Scandy boat launches of some hundreds of metres distance usually, and portages, were by masses of people lifting with their backs to the hull. I really doubt the idea that the raised prow (if that's what it is) is some sort of Samson post.
Maybe also useful for navigating as a visual way to set a course towards a landmark
Ancient Americas is an excellent channel and applaud your shout out!
One of my favourites for sure, love it.
@@jezusbloodie I was gonna say the same. I follow them religiously
@@DestinationBarbarismcan you point to a video?
@@DestinationBarbarism wait you argued with the guy, what video?
@@DestinationBarbarism He doesn't "Hate" Europeans. That's a weird accusation against him. Sounds like you're not being forthcoming. I have seen weirdos throw hissy fits cause he uses B.C.E. or doesn't subscribe to nonsense that certain individuals believe in.
I remember in elementary school in the 70's the teacher telling us about the Bronze Age, so I asked him, that since tin is only found in a few locations in Europe, it implies that not only those, in his words, primitive people would not only need to understand metallurgy, know where and what ore to mine, but that bronze found everywhere implies that there must be trade routes. He taught it off. Apparently he did not grasp the implications.
The Scandinavians building their houses from wood and not out of stone, is logical, loads and loads of easy availability of wood.
Also, the r value of wood vs stone is really important in northern latitudes
Even during the mid stonage there was fairly long trade routes with then valuable material. For instance the cross alps trade roots as proven by the ice man found there.
Also in southern Scandinavia there have been found stone dated from the stone age that is not naturally from that area but rather from continental Europe.
Those objects had to be incredibly valuable, specially the one land transported.
While transporting on sea may be a bit slower, the route is a bit steigther and a one man canno can still carry quite a hefty load.
The issue is of cause that who ever is transporting those would also need to transport food and water for probobly weeks at a time
@ it shows that also stone age men were far from primitive. Trade seems to be as old as men, and with that capitalism
@@KokkiePiet
I´m making a framework for a possible future game.
I have it currently set in 5 ages (stone, Bronze, Iron, Industrial and Information, i have skipped medieval intentionally).
Each age is set in 4 different sub ages, that i try to match as closely as i can to the actually sub ages in reality,
I worked throw something like 90% of the frame work of the stone age.
I have the work name stone age 0-3. Where the game suppose to start with the stone age 0 fully locked (hence the name 0).
They should really be called the stone age, the flint age, the wood age and the farming age.
In the first part there is basically no way of transporting short of just carrying it, sort of kind of true in the second age.
In the third age you can sleed things on the ground.
Only in the ver tale end of the last part of the stone age (farming age) where something even similar to a wheel turn up.
Granted, by that time the boats is getting pretty usable.
Its really actually not the invention of the wheel, but of the bearing. I have something like 200 items of development before the wheel. And that don´t even include domestication of maybe 100s of animals and plants.
At the same token, for the industrial age (that i have not made the frame work yet). there is a lot of work before railroads.
First there a full bunch of advance mechanical components, then there is the steam fluid pump that use steam to pump non mechanically. Then there is the steam mechanical pump, then the over pressure pump than the high pressure one. And its like 50-100 years between each of those.
Interesting, the steam turbine was actually developed during the industrial revolution, not during the modern age.
Oh what an unexpected surprise! And a topic close to home too, he said from the south eastern coast of Sweden ^^
@@derrickstorm6976 Tack detsamma! ^^
As much as they traded and traveled on land and sea in the bronze age, surely Nordic people witnessed a Minoan ship's mast. There is no way 2000 years went by and mast were still a secret.
Yeah but using wind to get places is fir Nancy boys
Makes sense that they would have built ships as big as they could, while overseas markets were healthy: bigger ships can carry much more cargo, and this would lead to a drop in transport costs, meaning that all parties in the trade for e.g. amber would benefit, so they'd continue increasing the size of their ships to the limit of what technology could do at the time.
Fascinating stuff! Thank you for this video.
Very interesting. I'm Swedish and have seen some of these boat petroglyphs "in the flesh." You provided a level of realism and context I have not seen before. Thanks much!
Another great start to a Sunday morning with a new video from Dan!!
Awesome!!
Thank you Dan!!
Please do a video about Mediterranean Bronze Age sailing ships
Phoenicians had the knowledge
@@sleazymeezy No Phoenicians in the bronze age.
Actually architecture draws the line between the Canaanites and the later descendant phoenician culture with the bronze age collapse and dawn of the iron age a few hundred years later.
You have one of the best history channels. Please make sure you narrate all the videos. Those are when it is the best. Thank you for your hard work. It does not go unappreciated.
Finland's southern coast was involved in the Nordic Bronze Age, as well
The coast up to south Ångermanland has Bronze Age metal and settlements from Nordic Bronze Age, as well.
True
Yes, the Finnish coast has been part of the Nordic cultural, trade, and even genetic zone pretty much since the ice melted, thousands of years before either the Germanic or Uralic languages. And it never really stopped. Don't get fooled by them speaking a weird language.
If you ever visit Stockholm I can recommend a visit at the shipwreck museum, Vrak. It's nextdoor to the Vasa museum and have a good exhibition of bronze age shipwrecks found in the Baltic sea.
Ooh I've always wanted to visit the Vasa, I had no idea there were some even earlier shipwrecks preserved nearby!
Swedes was pioneers when it came to submarines.
A Swede constructed the Monitor in USA...
@@maggan82
Yes his name was John Ericsson.
I used to watch this channel all the time before I had a TH-cam account and I’ve been looking for it for over a year now. So happy I finally found it again. Dude your videos have reinvigorated my love of history like nothing else. Thanks for all the great work you do.
That's a lovely sentiment
It strikes me that a tall pole in a boat would be good for sighting land, hugging a coast, or watching out for submerged rocks. But when you see rigging or an actual sail in these glyphs, that seems pretty conclusive evidence for wind powered vessels to me.
That's what I'm thinking. If those aren't sails, what are they? And if their trading partners in the south had sails at this time, why is the notion that the Scandinavians also used sails so strange? If most journeys were by river, it makes sense that most of their boats and ships didn't need sails even if some of the wealthier chieftains occasionally built larger ocean-going ships.
@@rdklkje13 as you see by the map of these carvings. The south eastern Scandinavia has boats with sails. Which would imply they are the part that bothered with them, most likely because it was the last safe harbours and settlments you had before you headed into foreign lands. And most likely where sails were introduced.
Rowing was still faster, way faster than any downwind sailing could accomplish. And closer to home you have many places and reason to stop and trade, all within a day's paddle. But further south, facing the rougher coastal seas and cultures that you couldn't be entirely sure was safe to stay long at. A sail was essential to rest and recuperate in-between short foraging expeditions that ensured you weren't taken advantage of by opportunistic locals.
@@MrEmioskRowing, esp. fast rowing, needs manpower. As a trader you don't want to feed many mouths. So rowing was more likely used for war ships or pirates, but not over a long time, because you don't want your men beeing exhausted when it comes to battle. But i have to admit, traders in ancient times could also act as pirates and vice versa.
You sure have a habit of making some of my favorite videos on YT
We've spent all of our existence as wanderers, there's no reason to think that water would slow us down for long . It's just a matter of how far back in time and time again we've got to rediscover ourselves. Excellent presentation, I've always liked this sort of history. Thx. 👍
Actually water sped us up. Given that most of the land surface was wildwood, not carefully managed woodland as most is today, the main inland routes were ridge-ways where the forest was lighter or absent, above the valleys which would have been much more marsh than our preset experience. The navigable rivers, and the coastal sea's were the motorways of the ancient world.
Thank you for these wonderful videos on the Bronze Age and ancient history. I am a Minoan enthusiast and would love to see a video on Mediterranean seafaring.
Thank you so much that's very kind and generous of you.
@@DanDavisHistory no, thank you. Keep up the good work. I'm an aspiring author myself and your video are extremely helpful with information and ideas.
Spend ANY time paddling a canoe on a lake, and the idea of a sail is not some flash of genius. It's intuitive. Two people in a canoe with a large cloak attached to two paddles are more efficient than using the paddles as intended, when the wind is at your back. Paddlers QUICKLY discover this. The technology holding back ubiquitous use of sail probably has more to do with textiles technology than anything else. Sails were more valuable than the boat, especially as they were made of wool or hemp.
Concerning Bronze Age Mediterranean sailing ships
*DESIRE TO KNOW MORE INTENSIFIES*
Something to consider with the largest vessels, both Bronze Age and Viking Age, is that they often stayed close to home. Medium sized boats seem to have been more likely to be the work horses, with the big boats kept as a flex to impress the neighbours.
Yes, shipbuilding and maritime trade are very interesting topics. Please continue on these lines.
A hearty hell yes to bronze age sailing
Take a look at the fortified houses in the north of scottland. Something was going on up north we don't know about.
It might be that they did not routinely put the sail up except when they had a good following wind on the open water. Even in the Roman era, the Armoricans depended on making their (leather!) sails fast with lines to the sides of the vessel. This meant they could really only run pretty much in front of the wind - tacking ability was limited.
(The Romans learned to disable the Armorican vessels by cutting these lines.)
Well one would probably row out to point X where you are clear of the headlands, and then pick up the prevailing wind. So the mast is not just there for random gusts.
I would love to see that video, and I am really glad you took the time to mention the Old Copper Culture here in North America. The things they did with native copper were really something, and people forget that pre-columbian cultures were often sophisticated metalworkers who just chose not to use iron because obsidian was abundant. They made many things in gold that were then stolen, but the stuff that remains is amazing.
That was very interesting. One thing about sailing, is if you get into heavy seas under sail, your vessel "works" a lot. Working means racking and twisting through the structure of the vessel.
The mast and stays, are like a long lever, the foot of the mast is sitting at the keel, and the stays are fixed wide on the sides, and the whole lever of the mast works back and forth. (In a modern vessel, you are not in danger, but I absolutely believe that reconstruction you showed would eventually pound its mast heel down through its keel, if it kept the sea in rough weather.)
Now you add the rise of the sea, the wave striking with increasing force as the seas get heavier, and very likely from across the bows at an angle . . . if it was GOOD weather you can decrease the angle the waves are hitting you, but as the weather gets rougher, you are often constrained to accept more of an unhappy set against the waves and it increases the pounding on your vessel dramatically. Even modern vessels suffer from this, as soon as you "shorten sail" in heavy weather, the whole vessel stops creaking and squeaking. An if you drop the sails entirely, an run the motor, the difference is remarkable.
You don't have that effect when you are rowing, the oars themselves are mobile, not anchored to the side of the vessel, are smaller, are spread evenly, an have people attached to them as a kind of practical shock absorber. And you have not got the long length of the mast working away in one place.
I think what you probably had was vessels that COULD spread a sail in relatively calm water, with the wind from astern, but at the first hint of foul weather, went back to their oars, and that is why the depictions are almost all of oared vessels.
That might be a problem with a fixed mast, but what about a removable mast that would be used in fair weather, but removable in stormy weather.
In fair weather conditions you sail, while in storms or foul weather you paddle.
The medieval period Nordic vessels I’ve seen suggest the sort of arrangement I have described above.
@@reggiebuffat Yeah, that is quite likely in the case of the smaller craft he talks about.
The larger ones I believe would certainly have had to have auxiliary sail from a mast.
You don't have to take my word for any of this, look at the PRACTICAL designs and the upper limits of the Greek and Persian vessels. And the relatively recent historical record, of oared galleys in Spain and the Barbary states, explicitly confirms that they didn't do well in rough seas and high winds.
What happens is they lose steerage, i.e. their head gets knocked off the only safe course for them in heavy seas which is into the wind and they ship waves from abeam, they have 70 or even 100 oar-holes a side
*Glub glub glub*
@@uncletiggermclaren7592 The suggestion was that they had paddlers not oarsmen. Thus relatively low free board, and no oar ports. I'm also surprised that they did not seem to have decks which would seem an obvious strengthener of the hull. I presume the technique was step a mast and sail if the weather permitted, and if the weather turned sour find shelter in the coast.
@@harrymoyes5069 Yes, paddlers for the Scandinavian ones they have found actual proof of.
I was talking about subsequent, virtually modern history ones that we have a lot of data for.
We have detailed records of examples, in the Med, there used to be hundreds of quite substantial banked-oar galleys of the 25 to 30 meter size. Mr Davis speaks about that as theoretically the largest there may have been in the North.
And in the detail records of combat between oared galleys and Royal Navy and American Navy vessels, they are remarkable as being fair weather, short ranging vessels.
Further back, we have records of massed galleys in Greek and Roman times, and I have read accounts of whole fleets of them foundering because bad weather caught them.
It's always a great day when Dan Davis drops a new video. Love it!
A video on the Sailing ships in The Bronze Age of the Mediterranean would be wonderful.
The method of Naval Archeology that we Greeks used to rebuild the Minoan boat now found in Chania Crete . Is very similar to that used by the Scandinavians researchers to rebuild the Hjortspring Boat. The Greek used drawings found on walls and vases to get an insight of how the boat was built.
Very interesting and presented with a Clear and precise Narrative.
Wohoo my favourite bronze age complex to learn about! Although that's parly due to there not being much to learn about the Nordwestblock complex, just to the south west of the Nordic bronze age, yet.
Nordic petroglyphs are the coolest
Yes, a DDH upload! Excellent as usual! ❤😊❤
Yes please!, video on Bronze-Age sailing vessels in the Med.
I’m a maritime studies student, and I’ve taken multiple classes on ancient seafaring and ship building. My Viking archaeology class was one of my favorite! Your video brought me back to those classrooms and made my week. Thanks for uploading.
Nice to see someone studying in the field commenting.. Did you cover Polynesian voyaging? Whether you did or didn't, can I recommend two lovely & well researched recentish books: "Vaka Moana" published by the Auckland Museum/Bateman and "Pathway of the Birds", published by Bateman/University of Hawaii. Wherever you are, you can at least find them by library interloan. They're well researched, referenced, and lovely to look at too!
As always, so interesting 😮
Ships, ships. More ships please!!
I much prefer skeptical reality based channels like this one to the alternatives.
The factual world we exist in is quite fascinating enough!
Ancient America's Dan Davis crossover when? You are 2 of my favorite people on TH-cam!
I don't think Ancient America would associate with white supremacists.
This video clearly states that there is no evidence of an ancient Atlantic crossover.
@@cyberpotato63 lol very nice
Love your work man. Informative and concise. Thanks 🙏
Thanks!
Viking 1.0: Bronze Age.
Thank you very much indeed, very generous of you.
always a pleasure seeing you've uploaded Dan!
One of my favorite channels. Thanks, Dan!
Extraordinarily good channel.
Absolutely fascinating stuff. I live in hope of a Nordic Bronze Age shipwreck discovery from say a thousand years earlier than the Hjortspring. Must be out there somewhere...
Cheers mate. Yeah fingers crossed, that would be amazing. The conditions would have to be ideal. Maybe in the cold waters of coastal northern Norway, or in a silted over river mouth in Jutland.
Thanks for this one. I love it. Also, thanks for turning me on to the Ancient Americas channel. I can already tell I’m going to enjoy it, just by looking through the titles.
And now for some educational bliss. Thank you, as always.
Another great video much appreciated Dan!
This was a cool news that nobody in Sweden mentioned on the news or some tv channel.
They suck at reporting archaeological finds in Swedish media overall, sadly.
Only history of the 3rd world allowed
@@pendragon6207 Ja, det är sant. (;
Because the government and media there hates their native White European heritage and anything that makes us more deep and interesting must be suppressed
@@pendragon6207 Sad to hear about the under reporting of archaeological finds
in Sweden. I myself find it fascinating, when new findings of our ancestors are discovered,
and new information might be obtain about the past.
I've always been fascinated by Tacitus's account in his "Agricola" were he breaks down his theory of the ethnicity of the various British Tribes! He describes the Caledonii and compares these people to the Silures who lived in what is now modern Wales: "Who were the original inhabitants of Britain, whether they were indigenous or foreign, is, as usual among barbarians, little known. Their physical characteristics are various and from these conclusions may be drawn. The red hair and large limbs of the inhabitants of Caledonia point clearly to a German origin. The dark complexion of the Silures, their usually curly hair, and the fact that Spain is the opposite shore to them, are an evidence that Iberians of a former date crossed over and occupied these parts." I have always been of the mind that That Tacitus was talking directly from personal experience and his assumptions though often rebuked by later historians always seemed at least to myself to have a sound logic. We can presume from what we know of Tacitus that he was extensively traveled in Rome's Western provinces and was in a position to make this logical assumption when applied to the Tribes of the British Isles. It is now more or less accepted by both historians and archaeologists that the "Celts" or "Keltoi" were not one ethnic group but several whom had adopted both cultural and linguistic traits which marked them out as "Celtic" as opposed to Ligurian, Iberian, German or Latin for example. So it seems to me Bronze Age seafaring Scandinavians and Germanic peoples did indeed sail west over the North Sea in their advanced ships and like in later ages would surely make landfall in what is now Eastern Scotland and Northern England. Over the years they adopted a mixture of indigenous and Proto Celtic customs and by the time Tacitus records them to historical record that the Caledonii and the Silures from different ethnic origins are both linguistically and culturally very much part of the greater "Celtic La Tene" culture that dominated the Central and Western parts of Europe before the Roman Conquests.
Fascinating!
The Welsh still do have a bit more neolithic and a bit less Steppe in them than their neighbours to either side.
Still, if you look at the northwestern & western shore of the Iberian peninsula, let’s say Galicia - it’s pretty much directly north to hit the Irish sea and the Silures on the Welsh southern coast. If you miss, even by quite a lot, you still hit Britain or Ireland somewhere.
Fascinating topic. Thank you.👌🚣
This channel should be the history class. Man, your videos are shaping both my TTRPG and my novel.
Excellent. Well-researched and very appropriately illustrated with a clear, unambiguous narrative. Ne of the best summaries I’ve seen on the subject. Before retirement I worked in and for various maritime museums and recently visited the Nat. Mus. of Denmark to see the Hjortspring boat. Regarding the use of sails, this may have been a fairly early development as simply standing or sitting up in a small boat will give the game away. After that it’s all just tweaking. One of the limitations of ship length is the method of securing elements together and the invention of the hogging truss to alleviate sagging in a seaway. I wonder what proportion of the the petroglyphs illustrate masts, yards and sails. Thank you for a very satisfying video.
Thanks very much for watching and for your comment, appreciate it.
this is a wonderful discussion, thanks
Awesome video as usual. Would love to see more on the bronze age in western continental Europe, france for example.
So fascinating to think about those ages. Would be so cool to be able to explore them.
Love the ancient americas shoutout! Two of youtubes best creators.
Excellent!
Also I can't believe I've already missed another video from you in the recent past - I have a lot of catching up to do.
Amazing content as always.
Thank you 🙏
Once again, masterful presented Mr. Davis.
Some excellent scholarship in this video, presenting the collected evidence and offering your thoughts, without overstating how likely they are. The link to other, related content that covers something you're not as knowledgeable about is also extremely professional. Very well produced!
Two thoughts
1. Those claiming there was a transatlantic trade at the time are doing so because for their alternative history views, they need one to have existed. I was one as what's left of my videos (the ones I don't now completely disagree with) would show.
2. Is it possible that sails were relatively common, but only as removable structures? The first sails wouldn't have been very good, so they probably only worked in perfect conditions. So, the mass/frame would have been something that could be stored away
Great videos. I often rewatch them, just to remind me of everything stated. That's something I only do with about 3 or 4 other channels
Thank you. Yes I believe you're right about removable masts and sails, they speculate on this in the paper(s).
And yes the alt history / pseudo history crowd are pretty committed to prehistoric transatlantic trade idea, despite the lack of evidence for it and much evidence against it.
Thank you for exploring such a magnificent period. I always appreciate your dedication to accuracy and deep research.
Great film. I hadn’t heard of the Ferriby boat before. Really interesting thanks.
Great, as always! ❤🇵🇹
Great video. Fascinating to hear the history of the various cultures and capabilities of early civilizations.
Dan, thanks for another wonderful video. I have been a subscriber for...
Well long enough that i know you are an author of some of the best stories of mans conquest of the the step lands and each other😮
Thanks Dan.
Awesome AA shout out! That channel is amazing!
Really loving your channel so far. Just found it today and every sigle title sounds interesting to me, gonna be a great marathon :)
Awesome as usual, thanks!
Thank you, Dan. I really enjoyed the video.
Wonderful conent as usual, Dan!!
I love your videos ❤️❤️
Thank you for being skeptical and wary with regards to evidence.
It really sets your work apart!
Another great presentation. Interesting and valuable information. Thank You indeed.
A truly wonderful video about a subject I have been obsessing over for decades!
Nice shout out for Ancient Americas. Fantastic youtube channel.
Very well done and presented. I learned from your presentation. Thank you.
Thank you very much for your amazing content! Yes, we want to see a video about sailing in Bronze Age Aegean!
Bronze Age, boats, skepticism, shout out to other good channels... Wonderfull!
The carving in the living tree is new info for me, and a very interesting one; thanks.
Can we hope for a comparison video on mediterranean ships?
Brilliant. Thank you for the work you put into this.
I'd love to see a video on bronze age ships in the Mediterranean, I'm obsessed with naval architecture.
Great research, great explanation, great respect for the evidence. (And a great antidote to the likes of G. Hancock et. al. :-)
Just found your channel. Love it. Lots to catch up on.
THANK YOU FOR ALL THIS DATA... VERY VERY INTERESTING... have studied some but this is so detailed and some of it new ... to me... the illustrations are fantastic... and your maps and explaining the sea level up and donw and lifting of the land etc.... very complete...
Free spirits they were... then... very long ago :-)... not like today... !!!!
once again a wonderful video. your talent for bringing across this information is inspiring!
Greetings and salutations! Thank you for a well done and fascinating video on an extreemely interesting subject. All the best, Billi.
amazing and suprising to see such elaborate boat building that early.. great video. I am keen on a video about the Mediterranean boats ;)
Excellent film. Please do another one on Bronze Age sailing in the Mediterranean!
Love to see a video on Bronze Age sailing in the Mediterranean
I’ve always found it difficult to believe sailing technology did not reach Northern Europe until the early Middle Ages. I also find it difficult to believe that the pre-Roman Britons/Irish didn’t have it given the Broighter ship and the stories of the Venetii swan-ships which fought Caesar in Gaul. Sailing ships might have been rare prestige items, but I’m sure they existed in these places.
I really love your skepticism here, really one of the reasons why I love your channel. I'm not entirely convinced by the rock carvings cited are really that great evidence for sail, even though this topic is really interesting and it is a really good inquiry to explore!
However, I think the shapes on the boats of the rock carvings, cited in this paper do not necessarily have to represent sails, at least not all of them.
The carvings in the study are taken out of their contexts. I think many of these lines that are thought to be a sail could refer to events happening on a boat, either mythical or real. Like something being carried on a boat. Many scholars here in Sweden agree that many Bronze age rock carvings in our country, often are narrative, sort like a comic book.
One myth often depicted on Swedish Bronze age carvings (and in other European countries) is the story of the moon (and/or the sun) being stolen by someone (a god or evil being) and put on a ship, then often being hidden in the sea. This myth is probably depicted on many of these carvings but interpreted as "a sail". The stealing of the moon is very probably featured on the Kivik grave carvings. In Finnish mythology the stealing of the "Sampo" - a mystical machine, is a similar myth (where the Sampo ends up on the bottom of the sea and spews out gold and salt).
I think this study "cherry picks" several carvings out of their narrative, but I understand it's a very hard thing to study as we do not have the "correct" interpretations of the carvings. They are most likely lost in time forever. However: people who know this stuff should really go ahead and study it further!
You've just gained a new subscriber on the strength of this video alone. (Showing your sources swung it.)
Hail and well met, Sir!
Right on! keep this pace please
Please do a video on bronze age Mediterranean ships! I absolutely love your channel! Your research is at a level miles above at of other history / archeology channels.
I usually don't comment on channels. Unless I have a question, or something new to provide. But I had to on this one. Please do bronze age Mediterranean ships! Pretty please
Awesome, thanks, and yes please to more!
I love how beautiful the prows of these boats were
Interesting how the bronze age collapse also affected the Scandinavians. Didn't think about it before, but totally makes sense.
In the third millennium BC , ancient Scandinavian people was able to make ships with the same construction techniques like Viking in the first millennium BC! They were absolutely very expert! 🙏
I am a simple man I see the words bronze age in a video title I click
Thank you for your work, I always enjoy your videos. Are you planning on maybe making interviews with the authors of the papers you discuss? I think you would make an excellent interviewer!