Make sure to like, subscribe, and leave a comment in response to this question for a chance to win a copy of Yumi signed by all the book club guests and Brandon! "What parallels do you see within Yumi and the current impact of A.I. art in our world?"
Yumi's countrymen trying to replace yukihijo like Yumi stacking rocks by having machines do it instead brings to mind the use of A.I. art to replace real art created by human artists.
It is far more rewarding for everyone involved in art (artist, critic, buyer, the general population) to have art done by people with emotion, and able to put that emotion into their art, than something which can only copy the work of others. AI can only output remixes of things, it cannot truly create something new and original.
Yumi's ability to bring her nightmares to life touches on the theme of exploring the human psyche and imagination. Similarly, AI art often draws inspiration from the vast dataset of human-created art and explores new creative possibilities, sometimes generating surreal or dreamlike images. Both "Yumi and the Nightmare Painter" and AI art involve the intersection of artistic creation and technology. Yumi uses a magical brush to create her art, while AI art leverages algorithms and machine learning to generate artistic pieces. This highlights how technology can be a tool for creativity. In both contexts, there is a blurring of boundaries. Yumi blurs the line between her dreams and reality, while AI art blurs the line between human and machine creativity. This raises questions about authorship and the definition of art in a technologically advanced world. written by chatGPT
Spoilers for the entirety of Yumi: While the Father Machine stacked rocks in ways that were impressive to look at on their own, and attracted spirits as well, there was something fundamentally missing from the operation. I think this quote from the book sums it up well: -“I’m. Trying. Not. To ccream. Right now”- Wrong one, sorry. This one: “The machine, she thought, keeps a piece of the spirit’s soul. That’s why the gifts the scholars create don’t work as well.” While the machine attracts spirits, a part of each spirit is missing. Similar to how someone can look at AI art and think 'that looks pretty good', but that the same time, the knowledge that it was created purely by a machine holds it back. The initial looking at art in a vacuum without knowing anything about it is partly a way to judge art. But it's that extra knowledge of the background of a piece and that an actual person had thoughts and ideas that lead to each and every detail of that piece of art that elevates it, and leads to (sticking with the metaphor) the full spirit rather than the machine holding a portion back.
It shows how even if art can be made more efficiently and mass produced, it lacks what characterizes it as art. That passion that sparks an idea, that sentiment behind it, that inspiration that drives the artist
Just finished my second read and I gotta say again, Thanks so much Emily for sharing your story with us. Thanks for encouraging Brandon and helping him be the writing machine that stacks books in a most interesting and invested way. Thanks for running the company so he can write the stories. Thanks for inspiring this story and other stories and for contributing so much to the cosmere. And you lead a good book discussion.
I Found it amazing how not only the table but also the entire shelf decoration behind get customized for those book clubs. The flying plant is such an amazing nod
I love Jackson and Tim so much! Been watching HelloFutureMe for years. I’m happy to see Brandon select a wide variety of people that all have interesting opinions and views for these book clubs.
I would love to see Emily's English teacher expertise break down scenes or symbolism for Brandon's books in videos on this channel, that would be amazing
1st I am LOVING this series. Yumi was my first Sanderson book and I am an instant fan of his work! AI art is very precise and mathematical. Her rock stacking is also precise but in a different way. And her art is led by giving of herself whereas the machine is creating by feeding on the spirits… it is so different.
In regards to the red herring, when I first read painters assertion that Yumi was from his star, I immediately thought he was wrong. I don't know if I expected a specific twist but felt like painter had jumped to a conclusion with too little info. Maybe its cause I identify with him and knew how easy a solution that'd be or if I caught wind of a second draft insert IDK. Overall This was my favorite secret project book and in my top 5 of the cosmere too. Thank you Brandon for writing this amazing book and thank you Emily for hosting these videos!
The major parallel I loved was when Yumi was fighting for one view against Father Machine. She was doing what every artist of any field does when facing this challenge of showing they are not as easily replaceable with A.I.. Yes both A.I. and Father Machine have gotten to the point where they can replicate what artists and Yumi can do, but there is not much direction in how they get the results. Where as artists and Yumi pour their souls into their work. Even Painter did that till he was crushed from not getting in. Yes A.I. is getting really good it especially will get better if directed well, unlike (and yet exactly like) how Father Machine followed the Scholar's direction and summoned the spirits. Hopefully Brandon hasn't predicted how the world will go down with the rise of newer better models in the future. 😅
With the discussion of art it reminded me of The Original, the audiobook Brandon Sanderson did with Mary Robinette, and in that world everybody has all needs met and don’t need to sustain themselves through work and I love how one form of art that the main character enjoys is peeling oranges in fancy ways and she has parties where people will watch how she slices them. It is cool how that art comes to be because she doesn’t need to sustain herself and the AIs of that world do all the cleaning and producing necessary.
I liked the message of how important art by humans is valuable. It didn’t feel heavy handed, but it seemed like a cautionary tale about what happens when a machine imitates art in a way that overtakes humans or becomes mass produced.
I see a world where the worst case scenario has come to pass with A.I., and I think it can looked at as a cautionary tale in that regard. We have such a desire for pushing the boundaries and exploring new, ever greater frontiers- and we often only mitigate the damage our inventions can do well after they’ve been unleashed.
I hadn't even thought about the machine in parallel with A.I. art, but that was such a cool connection the club brought up! If I remember right, there was something about soul/investiture/emotion/what-have-you that let Yumi win out in the end when going up against that machine. It's not going to be easy, but I think that people will tend toward forming connections with artists and then supporting them because of that connection. I myself am always more likely to buy art from someone I've bought art from before, or who I get talking to about things important to me. I'm also more likely to buy artist's originals of adorable creatures they invented, or beautiful landscapes, rather than fanart or something mimicking someone else. I feel a greater emotional connection that way!
When art becomes essential for the livelihoods (and profit margins) of more than just the artist, there seems to be a rush to automate. To remove the human variable. To improve consistency and efficiency at the expense of the art and the artist.
As someone who didn't really know anything about the Cosmere until Tress, except that it exists, I mostly find the easter eggs add to the world building. The real world is full of things we don't fully understand and things that make no sense outside of their context, and I think Brandon does a great job of putting these references to a dual purpose to serve both the immediate narrative and the Cosmere. On that note, when Hoid said "as you've probably already guessed" that didn't throw me off, the assumption that they came from different planets didn't make enough sense to be unquestionable. Particularly the similarity of their cultures wasn't logical, even in a sister planet scenario, and if that had been what was going on then there would have been cultural remnants to point that way - they'd be going to the planet not to discover it but to reconnect, there would be legends that have significance to the planet or the day star, *something*.
This was around the part of the book where i dispized both characters, but damn did i come back to loving them real quick. Also, i like the rock stack in the background
Agreed, I think that was part of why it worked so well. I never exactly disliked them, but to me, it was like they needed see how different they were from each other, then keep trying to solve problems the way that hasn't been working for them their whole lives, then finally realize that there was "another way." (And man did it hit me hard when they got to that point.)
Investiture (magic that attracts souls) results from the effort put into creating exactly what you mean to create, whatever it is. That's why Yumi has such power. Her singlemindedness and dedication make her powerful. Painter used to have it, but lost his drive when he lost his friends. The recovery of friendship together with the creativity that gives him power is a plotline that I really love.
I think it's an interesting parallel to see how art can be "done better" by the machine (or A.I). It may not be as effective, but because of the sheer volume handled by the machine, it is "equal" in the eyes of the scholars. Brandon's great counterpoint was to really ram home how subjective art is to each person and how much value can be found in the things you love and in self expression
Feels like I'm back in school :P I got a C in Swedish because I don't analyze books. I read them for the story, not for any deeper connection with myself or anything :)
I think it’s an interesting parallel. So much about art is subjective, especially to the untrained eye. In Yumi’s case, I’m sure most people wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between a pile of rocks stacked by a machine, or stacked by a real person (unless perhaps that person was a master, like Yumi). Personally, I’m sure there’s art generated by AI that I would think was done by a person. However, upon finding out that a piece of art was generated by a machine and not a person, it would immediately change the value of the piece of art, as well as my perception of it. In that sense, the background or process used to create the art matters. It’s not just about the end result (destination) it’s also about the journey.
In some way I can see the mass-produced art like the Scholars saw their machine, fitting all this things together so they can go through all the steps and create something at least kinda convincing would require some hard work and creative solutions. Sometimes restrictions of the materials or the process end up leading to some amazingly clever workarounds that are rooted in some discoveries that maybe were made long ago but never were thought to be aplied in that context or some entirely new things pop up that then let other industries or parts of human life to make another step forward. So like, there is art in how much effort and thought was put into making the machine in the first place, but in the end the stuff it produces still can be soulless, or, if you look really hard into it, have small parts of all the soul that was put into making of the prodicing machine. In the end my idea is kinda that human art stays the greater art in many regards, while mass-produced art can be striking in ingenuity put in by the creators of the machine, but never would be as amazing of an artpiece on its own. And like there we can go into how imperfect art is in some situations and in some ways more valuable than a "perfect" art, if we even can call anything "perfect" art. Japan kinda has this idea of beauty of the simplicity and mundane-ness of everyday things and actions that I feel like also has that idea of imperfections and mistakes to be a crucial part of the beauty of something as a whole, but maybe that's just my interpretation of it.
I hadn’t thought about this parallel before, but now I totally see it. AI art is really just based on probabilistic models, trained on what they’ve seen before to try to generate the most “likely” image, like what it’s seen before. The machine is similar, stacking rocks in the safest way. Yumi on the other hand, knows how to take risks and have an artful way of off-balance and risk, like art that introduces something new. I also see a parallel in that the AI or the machine can be helpful and serve a purpose, but it is not a full replacement for the human driven art. However, I’m not sure if the machine has the same plagiarism issues AI can.
I feel, as in the book, that technology advancing is an inevitability and the capabilities of machines to perform tasks that have been thought of as uniquely human is something that should be embraced. The fact that AI can create art does not diminish the skill of the human painter but instead lauds the skill of the Computer Science researcher that led us to this point. Just think of the wonders we'll be able to create alongside our flourishing technology.
I love the parallels in here with AI art. I find it interesting that in this story the machine was able to make a form of art based on its programming and inputs and it could go on making the same thing forever. However, it could never really progress past what already existed. I feel that AI art in the real world will be similar. Sure AI can generate some very interesting works based on inputs that are fed to it however, I think that there is space for both. There will always be a need for creativity, human expression, and the connections that creates.
I didn't really make this connection while reading, but this reminds me of I, Robot and some of Asimov's classic questions concerning artificial intelligence. I wonder what Yumi's world would have looked like if the father machine had followed the three laws of robotics.
The biggest parallel I see between Yumi and.the Nightmare Painter and the current influx of AI-driven art is the existential "crisis" of not just wondering where it will fit in with human created art, but the larger question of what "art" itself means. It's interesting because it's not necessarily something at the forefront of most people's minds all the time, while at the same time being a much larger, more complex question than it appears on the surface once you really start thinking about it.
A parallel I see is question "What is art". I laughed when Yumi forbad Painter of pointing the irony of the situation, but the machine is efficient in that villagers wouldn't have to wait 6 years just to get a new light. Art generated by AI can still draw our attention just like the machine can draw the spirits, but there is something missing when we discover it was not made as a personal expression. Yumi's objection was that it was disingenuous to the spirits since the machine cares not for them or their needs and though AI generated art is efficient and can even win the occasional award, it's missing that human connection.
When the machine was introduced, I immediately thought of the current issues with AI art. I loved how the machine could not draw as many spirits as Yumi’s stones could, and I think that is true for AI art. While it may be “precise” or even beautiful, I haven’t seen any yet that invoked the same emotional spectrum that human-created art has for me.
I think even well intentioned people trying to accomplish more, be it with the machine or AI, can have unintended consequences. However lots of things we consider improvements on our life were also gambles. It is difficult, and perhaps impossible, to foresee all possible outcomes.
I honestly didn’t think about AI until reading comments after finishing the book. Now that it’s been pointed out, I tend to agree more with Yumi that there are consequences around its use that are unexpected and potentially dangerous.
I have read all of Brandon's books except for anything past way of kings in that series because I'm waiting for it to get closer to done. So probably this year I will start. However, I never really grasped the cosmere. The one member of the book club that thought that this book was paying tribute to that cosmere in sacrifice of the story I would have to disagree. There was nothing jolting about anything there. If there's stuff we don't really understand. It's so minimal and quick that we can assume we must have just missed something earlier in the book or that it will be explained later and carry on. Or not even stop to think about it. Even hoid, I don't think I was aware of him directly as an individual until reading these secret books close to each other. I'm guessing there's probably been hoid in other stories. I'm sure I've read about him. But I didn't hang on to that little piece of information.
I think just like A.I. art, in Yumi, the people forgot that art itself has a purpose outside of monetization and tangible things we attach to its value. There is an inherent value in the act of creation and self-expression, which can not be replicated with A.I.
"What parallels do you see within Yumi and the current impact of A.I. art in our world?" I think its an interesting parallel in that the Father Machine isn't inherently Evil or bad but it just did what it was programmed to do, but the humans that created it didn't explore the consequences of their actions responsibly. Like wise in todays world there is so much good AI and machine learning can do for the world like ancient handwriting recognition, but its important to explore and consider the consequences and ethics of our actions.
The greatest fear about AI is that it will replace art, artists, screenwriters, actors, and I undoubtedly more. Considering AI requires examples in order to extrapolate off of, it becomes a matter of compensating artists from our world because of it. There will always be new expressions of humanity that I don't think an AI will ever achieve. Especially with how fluid the "market" is for what people demand and what is popular as different art influences us. The artwork and jokes of anime may not have been as popular in Da Vinci's time because it wasn't "Renaissance" but that doesn't mean it doesn't have beauty, hard work, and art to it. The warning we get from Yumi is the fear that's been around since the Space Odyssey, is if the AI destroys us. Without proper safeguards, it can, even in something considered "non-essential" to life as art.
I feel like Yumi gives great insight into AI art in world by showing that thought AI can make art, it doesn't necessarily make it valuable. I like how Hoid keeps saying in the book that art is only valuable because people perceive it as valuable. I think art created by people is intrinsically valuable because of the human element ai can never replicate. I think Yumi is a cautionary tale that AI can help a society but true art must come from people themselves
I’ll admit my first thought with the robot stacker was the John Henry tale. It just so happens that the automation replacing manual labor is more than just adjacent to AI art versus “Manual” Art forms. Ultimately the AI bot loses the human soul in art and thus corrupts its own creation. While it can be mass replicated and produced it doesn’t evoke the same emotion as Yumi’s craft.
I think the parallel with AI works so well partially because of how disastrously the father machine is in Yumi! In the same way that the father machine swallowed up everyone save a few virtuosos, I think there’s a threat that AI could do this for most working artists. Without strong controls on what AI can be trained on and used for, eventually all media and content will be fed into the AI with or without the permission of those who originally made the art.
You hit the nail in the head with that one mister Sanderson. But i do think that the understanding that Yumi got when she grasp the need of her people have for her service will never be meet by a 10-15 special woman. There will always be value in human creative work but AI is here to stay and will serve humanity. There is no human that can win against your phone chess app anymore yet we still watch chass competitions. The future of art will be similar.
To the question of the AI in art, I really did miss that connection. I was more focused on Painters initial interpretation that it was technological progress and those kinds of effects on society.
response to the question: The magic in Yumi becomes overpowering and terrifying. It doesn't seem to have an end. It's what people discuss with the A.I. in our world, comparing it to the Terminator. For art specifically though, concerns in both Yumi and the real world crop up about whether or not the machines will take over the art, even while knowing that the true meaning of art comes from a sentient heart and soul. OTOH, the machine art of Yumi is quite mechanical, and A.I. art blends a lot of public-based art for a "unique" presentation, making it sometimes quite difficult to know what is real and what is A.I. generated. Yumi's machines fake the art and steal the spirits; real-world A.I. art fakes the spirits and steals the art.
"What parallels do you see within Yumi and the current impact of A.I. art in our world?" I think Yumi is right that AI will have a big impact on art, but I personally don't think it's bad. I think going forward artists will start working more with AI and that will just be part of the form.
The stacking machine makes for an intriguing comparison to the generation of AI art. The machine was only doing what it's command directed it to do, much in the same way that computer generated art is only the result of creative programming algorithms.
The parallel between them was shocking when I noticed it. How both the machine and ai steal the techniques created by human artists to use them to make their own version. And how they both harm those who they steal from by putting them out of their jobs. I see a future like in Yumi where the rock stacking isn’t even done now because a machine can do it. I hope that’s not what happens to modern day artists where artists give up their passions because ai is able to do it.
I wholeheartedly believe that will not be the case. I think even if AI becomes dominant, making art for the sake of making and getting to experience the creative will always be a human activity
One parallel i draw between ai art and yumi is intention. This is incredibly obvious (...now that im thinking about it anyways) in the scene where the machine is rock stacking and not attracting spirits. It can make impressive things, and very quickly, yet the creations dont have soul. A.I. can create pictures, not art.
AI art could be compared to Nikaro's use of bamboo as a placeholder for creativity when painting. It technically gets the job done, but is derivative and typically devoid of inspiration.
Art has two aspects which give it value, the objecive beauty of the art pieace and the effort that goes into it. We see many youtube art challenges where the end result is passably pleasing but when you learn that it was drawn with a pencil tied to someone's pinky it gains a lot of value. AI art can be objectively beautiful but the only impressive part about it is that AI is capable of producing it. Once AI has produced many art pieces it's not particularly impressive and the art has the same value as any other AI art. The machine in Yumi can make impressive stacks but it can't draw as many spirits as a yoki-hijo because there's no challenge to it.
I did not pick up on it when I read the book, but after listening to the book club, it is pretty obvious. Can we do what they did and just destroy all the software that creates AI. Probably not.
Similar to how I think humans using AI to enhance their ability to create their own art is a reasonable direction to go, I'd be curious to see what would happen if a version of one of those machines were guided by an artist instead of just left to stack on it's own, i.e. used to enhance the artist's own abilities
It shows even though art Can be mass produced it doesn’t mean it should. Art is about the individual person putting passion into something beautiful. A machine stacking rocks just studied Yumi and other yoki Hejo and tries to duplicate not doing it nearly as good.
I feel that technology should not do the work or create for us. It should only be used to help us which is why I think Yumi felt it was an abomination. They wanted it to takeover her job instead of helping.
It's true that AI is lowering the bar of entry to produce pretty imagery, but I think eventually, our favorite works will still be ones made by proper artists, with all the knowledge and experience that entails, who simply used AI to take their works to another level. Just think what the scholars could have done if they had worked with the yoki-hijo instead of against them!
The AI systems/coffee are art themselves just like the machine. But the products of both are in some way less than art created by humans. Though, art is intrinsically subjective so there's no real line, but on the averages, I think it will be true to an extent because of the human connection.
Both Yumi and AI depict art devoid of feeling that would be so much more better if humans did it. Also AI can't do hands and feet and the machine couldn't do anything but straight line rocks
There are a lot of parallels between Yumi and AI art - I really feel for the people in Hollywood on strike and the real fear that their jobs are at risk long-term because of the ability AI could have at churning out so much content. We've had this same fear with books and the printing press, but this time around - the tech innovation seems far more...sinister in nature, at least, in principle. We've already seen AI learn to be discriminatory through AI Chatbots...I fear what they will create next after absorbing what we have done on the internet. I mean...what could possibly go wrong?
I think the impact of A.I art will be somewhat similar to the commercialization of art - you touched it a bit in "The Emperor's soul" with the imperial forgerers and Shai's disdain for them. As for AI art - On the one hand, art is art and it is subjective. There will always be people who would like It and the idea that it was generated by a computer. On the other hand, they way the models were built, it will be tough to prove who needs to get the credit, who got copied and it will definitely hurt the artists. It is called the 4th technological revolution for a reason. But I hope the effects will not be so catastrophic like on Yumi's world
The writers strike specifically comes to mind with the issues with AI art coming to the forefront. Mass produced AI scripts could be a thing. While I feel a marvel movie or Star Wars movie could be written by an AI, it can definitely lose the human element. A virtuoso like Yumi will always be better than an AI.
The importance of Intent and the passion of art is something that has long bothered me in terms of TV writing in general- media has proven capable of producing high-budget stories of mediocre writing, which is fine only so far as the audience accepts the given show or movie for what it is. However, with AI I think we will get a dramatic shift in a rise of writing quality consistency that is foreign to Hollywood, but without the passion. I think it will be a good thing, once we find a balance between human art and AI art in both utility and legality of application.
It shows that AI fundamentally can not grasp humans ability to make choices. We're too chaotic. It can and will be excellent at imitating humans ability to choose. But it will always have an algorithm, and it's difficult to reproduce a chaotic human following their own personal logic and emotion. That choice is demonstrated in art, the choice to like or not like something. I've retype this twice now, and I'm giving up on making the above paragraph make any more sense 😅
When painter turned in unoriginal bamboo paintings because it “worked”. Felt like people who use a.I. to make art because it’s an easy way to make money. Using little effort and no passion to create it. Although this definitely also parallels as the burnout or disillusioned artist probably better- however when we get to the end seeing how this mirrors how the machine is mass producing work it does feel connected somehow although the machine is definitely more obvious.
I like the idea of comparing the father machine to an artistic AI - it seems to me that the AI (or machine) can elaborate and mix and match styles which it has seen before, but will not be able to come up with something truly original. It makes you think about what real originality is, since it's so hard to come up with some art which doesn't cause people (who are knowledgeable) to say "oh yeah, that's a bit like this and a bit like that". In short, most of the time, I think the AI would be able to do a reasonable job - bearing in mind that the art in these worlds is essentially utilitarian: It just summons spirits or dismisses nightmares, rather than specifically having to make people satisfied - which would need to answer to some higher calling of originality only with real connoisseurs
A.I. does a good job of copying art, but can not create art the same way an artist can. The machine can stack rocks, but it will never be as effective as Yumi.
The AI parallel I see is poor implementation causing implosion of the thing it was supposed to support. Some media outlets have tried replacing their staff with AI, lawyers have use AI for research, not realizing that AI is confidently and hilariously wrong all the time. AI has no understanding of what its saying or doing. This has led to articles announcing fake games or even switching from translated Spanish back to the original English, or in the lawyers' case legal paperwork being submitted to real court citing fake case law and fake statutes making internally inconsistent arguments. Big disaster, like in Yumi.
The parallel that I see is the lack of, literally, organic evolution/innovation. We can use AI art as a tool, but if we try and rely solely on AI art then it will stagnate for, oh, 1700 years? Just kidding. Art plays such a massive role in our society, both directly and indirectly, and there is really no limit to what can be art. Relying on AI might ultimately limit what we even consider art.
Make sure to like, subscribe, and leave a comment in response to this question for a chance to win a copy of Yumi signed by all the book club guests and Brandon! "What parallels do you see within Yumi and the current impact of A.I. art in our world?"
The rush for replacing workers with automation with the goal of improving efficiency leading to far reaching unintended consequences.
Yumi's countrymen trying to replace yukihijo like Yumi stacking rocks by having machines do it instead brings to mind the use of A.I. art to replace real art created by human artists.
It is far more rewarding for everyone involved in art (artist, critic, buyer, the general population) to have art done by people with emotion, and able to put that emotion into their art, than something which can only copy the work of others. AI can only output remixes of things, it cannot truly create something new and original.
Yumi's ability to bring her nightmares to life touches on the theme of exploring the human psyche and imagination. Similarly, AI art often draws inspiration from the vast dataset of human-created art and explores new creative possibilities, sometimes generating surreal or dreamlike images.
Both "Yumi and the Nightmare Painter" and AI art involve the intersection of artistic creation and technology. Yumi uses a magical brush to create her art, while AI art leverages algorithms and machine learning to generate artistic pieces. This highlights how technology can be a tool for creativity.
In both contexts, there is a blurring of boundaries. Yumi blurs the line between her dreams and reality, while AI art blurs the line between human and machine creativity. This raises questions about authorship and the definition of art in a technologically advanced world.
written by chatGPT
Spoilers for the entirety of Yumi:
While the Father Machine stacked rocks in ways that were impressive to look at on their own, and attracted spirits as well, there was something fundamentally missing from the operation. I think this quote from the book sums it up well:
-“I’m. Trying. Not. To ccream. Right now”-
Wrong one, sorry. This one:
“The machine, she thought, keeps a piece of the spirit’s soul. That’s why the gifts the scholars create don’t work as well.”
While the machine attracts spirits, a part of each spirit is missing. Similar to how someone can look at AI art and think 'that looks pretty good', but that the same time, the knowledge that it was created purely by a machine holds it back. The initial looking at art in a vacuum without knowing anything about it is partly a way to judge art. But it's that extra knowledge of the background of a piece and that an actual person had thoughts and ideas that lead to each and every detail of that piece of art that elevates it, and leads to (sticking with the metaphor) the full spirit rather than the machine holding a portion back.
I love Hoid ending up in books in different unique compromising situations so he can't solve the plot, it is so endlessly funny to me.
It shows how even if art can be made more efficiently and mass produced, it lacks what characterizes it as art. That passion that sparks an idea, that sentiment behind it, that inspiration that drives the artist
Just finished my second read and I gotta say again, Thanks so much Emily for sharing your story with us. Thanks for encouraging Brandon and helping him be the writing machine that stacks books in a most interesting and invested way. Thanks for running the company so he can write the stories. Thanks for inspiring this story and other stories and for contributing so much to the cosmere. And you lead a good book discussion.
I Found it amazing how not only the table but also the entire shelf decoration behind get customized for those book clubs. The flying plant is such an amazing nod
I love Jackson and Tim so much! Been watching HelloFutureMe for years. I’m happy to see Brandon select a wide variety of people that all have interesting opinions and views for these book clubs.
Emily is such a troll for ending this video in that way. She is a great host for this by the way.
I would love to see Emily's English teacher expertise break down scenes or symbolism for Brandon's books in videos on this channel, that would be amazing
Vote this up PLEASE
1st I am LOVING this series. Yumi was my first Sanderson book and I am an instant fan of his work! AI art is very precise and mathematical. Her rock stacking is also precise but in a different way. And her art is led by giving of herself whereas the machine is creating by feeding on the spirits… it is so different.
I can definitely see the connection. Her fight is our fight. We need to leave creativity to real human beings.
In regards to the red herring, when I first read painters assertion that Yumi was from his star, I immediately thought he was wrong. I don't know if I expected a specific twist but felt like painter had jumped to a conclusion with too little info. Maybe its cause I identify with him and knew how easy a solution that'd be or if I caught wind of a second draft insert IDK. Overall This was my favorite secret project book and in my top 5 of the cosmere too. Thank you Brandon for writing this amazing book and thank you Emily for hosting these videos!
I started the cosmere in february and finished yumi at the beginning of the month. I am glad to be caught up so I can watch these as they release
The major parallel I loved was when Yumi was fighting for one view against Father Machine. She was doing what every artist of any field does when facing this challenge of showing they are not as easily replaceable with A.I.. Yes both A.I. and Father Machine have gotten to the point where they can replicate what artists and Yumi can do, but there is not much direction in how they get the results. Where as artists and Yumi pour their souls into their work. Even Painter did that till he was crushed from not getting in. Yes A.I. is getting really good it especially will get better if directed well, unlike (and yet exactly like) how Father Machine followed the Scholar's direction and summoned the spirits. Hopefully Brandon hasn't predicted how the world will go down with the rise of newer better models in the future. 😅
With the discussion of art it reminded me of The Original, the audiobook Brandon Sanderson did with Mary Robinette, and in that world everybody has all needs met and don’t need to sustain themselves through work and I love how one form of art that the main character enjoys is peeling oranges in fancy ways and she has parties where people will watch how she slices them. It is cool how that art comes to be because she doesn’t need to sustain herself and the AIs of that world do all the cleaning and producing necessary.
I did love how they had to learn who they are by being someone else.
I liked the message of how important art by humans is valuable. It didn’t feel heavy handed, but it seemed like a cautionary tale about what happens when a machine imitates art in a way that overtakes humans or becomes mass produced.
I see a world where the worst case scenario has come to pass with A.I., and I think it can looked at as a cautionary tale in that regard. We have such a desire for pushing the boundaries and exploring new, ever greater frontiers- and we often only mitigate the damage our inventions can do well after they’ve been unleashed.
I hadn't even thought about the machine in parallel with A.I. art, but that was such a cool connection the club brought up! If I remember right, there was something about soul/investiture/emotion/what-have-you that let Yumi win out in the end when going up against that machine.
It's not going to be easy, but I think that people will tend toward forming connections with artists and then supporting them because of that connection. I myself am always more likely to buy art from someone I've bought art from before, or who I get talking to about things important to me. I'm also more likely to buy artist's originals of adorable creatures they invented, or beautiful landscapes, rather than fanart or something mimicking someone else. I feel a greater emotional connection that way!
My favorite (so far) of the secret projects
When art becomes essential for the livelihoods (and profit margins) of more than just the artist, there seems to be a rush to automate. To remove the human variable. To improve consistency and efficiency at the expense of the art and the artist.
Enjoying the book club...
As someone who didn't really know anything about the Cosmere until Tress, except that it exists, I mostly find the easter eggs add to the world building. The real world is full of things we don't fully understand and things that make no sense outside of their context, and I think Brandon does a great job of putting these references to a dual purpose to serve both the immediate narrative and the Cosmere.
On that note, when Hoid said "as you've probably already guessed" that didn't throw me off, the assumption that they came from different planets didn't make enough sense to be unquestionable. Particularly the similarity of their cultures wasn't logical, even in a sister planet scenario, and if that had been what was going on then there would have been cultural remnants to point that way - they'd be going to the planet not to discover it but to reconnect, there would be legends that have significance to the planet or the day star, *something*.
This was around the part of the book where i dispized both characters, but damn did i come back to loving them real quick. Also, i like the rock stack in the background
Agreed, I think that was part of why it worked so well.
I never exactly disliked them, but to me, it was like they needed see how different they were from each other, then keep trying to solve problems the way that hasn't been working for them their whole lives, then finally realize that there was "another way."
(And man did it hit me hard when they got to that point.)
Love this book club
Investiture (magic that attracts souls) results from the effort put into creating exactly what you mean to create, whatever it is. That's why Yumi has such power. Her singlemindedness and dedication make her powerful. Painter used to have it, but lost his drive when he lost his friends. The recovery of friendship together with the creativity that gives him power is a plotline that I really love.
I would LOVE a copy of this book!!
I think it's an interesting parallel to see how art can be "done better" by the machine (or A.I). It may not be as effective, but because of the sheer volume handled by the machine, it is "equal" in the eyes of the scholars. Brandon's great counterpoint was to really ram home how subjective art is to each person and how much value can be found in the things you love and in self expression
Feels like I'm back in school :P I got a C in Swedish because I don't analyze books. I read them for the story, not for any deeper connection with myself or anything :)
I think it’s an interesting parallel. So much about art is subjective, especially to the untrained eye. In Yumi’s case, I’m sure most people wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between a pile of rocks stacked by a machine, or stacked by a real person (unless perhaps that person was a master, like Yumi). Personally, I’m sure there’s art generated by AI that I would think was done by a person. However, upon finding out that a piece of art was generated by a machine and not a person, it would immediately change the value of the piece of art, as well as my perception of it. In that sense, the background or process used to create the art matters. It’s not just about the end result (destination) it’s also about the journey.
In some way I can see the mass-produced art like the Scholars saw their machine, fitting all this things together so they can go through all the steps and create something at least kinda convincing would require some hard work and creative solutions. Sometimes restrictions of the materials or the process end up leading to some amazingly clever workarounds that are rooted in some discoveries that maybe were made long ago but never were thought to be aplied in that context or some entirely new things pop up that then let other industries or parts of human life to make another step forward.
So like, there is art in how much effort and thought was put into making the machine in the first place, but in the end the stuff it produces still can be soulless, or, if you look really hard into it, have small parts of all the soul that was put into making of the prodicing machine.
In the end my idea is kinda that human art stays the greater art in many regards, while mass-produced art can be striking in ingenuity put in by the creators of the machine, but never would be as amazing of an artpiece on its own.
And like there we can go into how imperfect art is in some situations and in some ways more valuable than a "perfect" art, if we even can call anything "perfect" art. Japan kinda has this idea of beauty of the simplicity and mundane-ness of everyday things and actions that I feel like also has that idea of imperfections and mistakes to be a crucial part of the beauty of something as a whole, but maybe that's just my interpretation of it.
I hadn’t thought about this parallel before, but now I totally see it. AI art is really just based on probabilistic models, trained on what they’ve seen before to try to generate the most “likely” image, like what it’s seen before. The machine is similar, stacking rocks in the safest way. Yumi on the other hand, knows how to take risks and have an artful way of off-balance and risk, like art that introduces something new.
I also see a parallel in that the AI or the machine can be helpful and serve a purpose, but it is not a full replacement for the human driven art. However, I’m not sure if the machine has the same plagiarism issues AI can.
I feel, as in the book, that technology advancing is an inevitability and the capabilities of machines to perform tasks that have been thought of as uniquely human is something that should be embraced. The fact that AI can create art does not diminish the skill of the human painter but instead lauds the skill of the Computer Science researcher that led us to this point. Just think of the wonders we'll be able to create alongside our flourishing technology.
I love the parallels in here with AI art. I find it interesting that in this story the machine was able to make a form of art based on its programming and inputs and it could go on making the same thing forever. However, it could never really progress past what already existed. I feel that AI art in the real world will be similar. Sure AI can generate some very interesting works based on inputs that are fed to it however, I think that there is space for both. There will always be a need for creativity, human expression, and the connections that creates.
I didn't really make this connection while reading, but this reminds me of I, Robot and some of Asimov's classic questions concerning artificial intelligence. I wonder what Yumi's world would have looked like if the father machine had followed the three laws of robotics.
The biggest parallel I see between Yumi and.the Nightmare Painter and the current influx of AI-driven art is the existential "crisis" of not just wondering where it will fit in with human created art, but the larger question of what "art" itself means. It's interesting because it's not necessarily something at the forefront of most people's minds all the time, while at the same time being a much larger, more complex question than it appears on the surface once you really start thinking about it.
Adoooonalsium
Ok I need to know if there's a name to that piece of music in the video intro. That Ramin Djawadi Game of Thrones style cello resonates in my soul
A parallel I see is question "What is art". I laughed when Yumi forbad Painter of pointing the irony of the situation, but the machine is efficient in that villagers wouldn't have to wait 6 years just to get a new light. Art generated by AI can still draw our attention just like the machine can draw the spirits, but there is something missing when we discover it was not made as a personal expression. Yumi's objection was that it was disingenuous to the spirits since the machine cares not for them or their needs and though AI generated art is efficient and can even win the occasional award, it's missing that human connection.
When the machine was introduced, I immediately thought of the current issues with AI art. I loved how the machine could not draw as many spirits as Yumi’s stones could, and I think that is true for AI art. While it may be “precise” or even beautiful, I haven’t seen any yet that invoked the same emotional spectrum that human-created art has for me.
I think even well intentioned people trying to accomplish more, be it with the machine or AI, can have unintended consequences. However lots of things we consider improvements on our life were also gambles. It is difficult, and perhaps impossible, to foresee all possible outcomes.
I honestly didn’t think about AI until reading comments after finishing the book. Now that it’s been pointed out, I tend to agree more with Yumi that there are consequences around its use that are unexpected and potentially dangerous.
I have read all of Brandon's books except for anything past way of kings in that series because I'm waiting for it to get closer to done. So probably this year I will start. However, I never really grasped the cosmere. The one member of the book club that thought that this book was paying tribute to that cosmere in sacrifice of the story I would have to disagree. There was nothing jolting about anything there. If there's stuff we don't really understand. It's so minimal and quick that we can assume we must have just missed something earlier in the book or that it will be explained later and carry on. Or not even stop to think about it. Even hoid, I don't think I was aware of him directly as an individual until reading these secret books close to each other. I'm guessing there's probably been hoid in other stories. I'm sure I've read about him. But I didn't hang on to that little piece of information.
I think just like A.I. art, in Yumi, the people forgot that art itself has a purpose outside of monetization and tangible things we attach to its value. There is an inherent value in the act of creation and self-expression, which can not be replicated with A.I.
I want to read it so bad 😭
"What parallels do you see within Yumi and the current impact of A.I. art in our world?"
I think its an interesting parallel in that the Father Machine isn't inherently Evil or bad but it just did what it was programmed to do, but the humans that created it didn't explore the consequences of their actions responsibly. Like wise in todays world there is so much good AI and machine learning can do for the world like ancient handwriting recognition, but its important to explore and consider the consequences and ethics of our actions.
The greatest fear about AI is that it will replace art, artists, screenwriters, actors, and I undoubtedly more. Considering AI requires examples in order to extrapolate off of, it becomes a matter of compensating artists from our world because of it. There will always be new expressions of humanity that I don't think an AI will ever achieve. Especially with how fluid the "market" is for what people demand and what is popular as different art influences us. The artwork and jokes of anime may not have been as popular in Da Vinci's time because it wasn't "Renaissance" but that doesn't mean it doesn't have beauty, hard work, and art to it.
The warning we get from Yumi is the fear that's been around since the Space Odyssey, is if the AI destroys us. Without proper safeguards, it can, even in something considered "non-essential" to life as art.
I feel like Yumi gives great insight into AI art in world by showing that thought AI can make art, it doesn't necessarily make it valuable.
I like how Hoid keeps saying in the book that art is only valuable because people perceive it as valuable. I think art created by people is intrinsically valuable because of the human element ai can never replicate.
I think Yumi is a cautionary tale that AI can help a society but true art must come from people themselves
I’ll admit my first thought with the robot stacker was the John Henry tale. It just so happens that the automation replacing manual labor is more than just adjacent to AI art versus “Manual” Art forms. Ultimately the AI bot loses the human soul in art and thus corrupts its own creation. While it can be mass replicated and produced it doesn’t evoke the same emotion as Yumi’s craft.
I think the parallel with AI works so well partially because of how disastrously the father machine is in Yumi! In the same way that the father machine swallowed up everyone save a few virtuosos, I think there’s a threat that AI could do this for most working artists. Without strong controls on what AI can be trained on and used for, eventually all media and content will be fed into the AI with or without the permission of those who originally made the art.
You hit the nail in the head with that one mister Sanderson. But i do think that the understanding that Yumi got when she grasp the need of her people have for her service will never be meet by a 10-15 special woman. There will always be value in human creative work but AI is here to stay and will serve humanity.
There is no human that can win against your phone chess app anymore yet we still watch chass competitions. The future of art will be similar.
The fear that IA come to replace the works of people, but we have to work together the IA can make things easier, but never replace the original
To the question of the AI in art, I really did miss that connection. I was more focused on Painters initial interpretation that it was technological progress and those kinds of effects on society.
This has a very NPR feel to it. I like it :)
Haven't read the book yet, but hoping I can get into the giveaway =)
I haven't finished the book yet!!! So in that way, and specify relating to my experience, this book parallels AI art... incomplete... lol.
response to the question:
The magic in Yumi becomes overpowering and terrifying. It doesn't seem to have an end. It's what people discuss with the A.I. in our world, comparing it to the Terminator. For art specifically though, concerns in both Yumi and the real world crop up about whether or not the machines will take over the art, even while knowing that the true meaning of art comes from a sentient heart and soul.
OTOH, the machine art of Yumi is quite mechanical, and A.I. art blends a lot of public-based art for a "unique" presentation, making it sometimes quite difficult to know what is real and what is A.I. generated. Yumi's machines fake the art and steal the spirits; real-world A.I. art fakes the spirits and steals the art.
"What parallels do you see within Yumi and the current impact of A.I. art in our world?"
I think Yumi is right that AI will have a big impact on art, but I personally don't think it's bad. I think going forward artists will start working more with AI and that will just be part of the form.
The stacking machine makes for an intriguing comparison to the generation of AI art. The machine was only doing what it's command directed it to do, much in the same way that computer generated art is only the result of creative programming algorithms.
Yumiiiii
The parallel between them was shocking when I noticed it. How both the machine and ai steal the techniques created by human artists to use them to make their own version. And how they both harm those who they steal from by putting them out of their jobs. I see a future like in Yumi where the rock stacking isn’t even done now because a machine can do it. I hope that’s not what happens to modern day artists where artists give up their passions because ai is able to do it.
I wholeheartedly believe that will not be the case. I think even if AI becomes dominant, making art for the sake of making and getting to experience the creative will always be a human activity
One parallel i draw between ai art and yumi is intention. This is incredibly obvious (...now that im thinking about it anyways) in the scene where the machine is rock stacking and not attracting spirits. It can make impressive things, and very quickly, yet the creations dont have soul. A.I. can create pictures, not art.
Never let a sense of humor get in the way of a good joke!
AI art could be compared to Nikaro's use of bamboo as a placeholder for creativity when painting. It technically gets the job done, but is derivative and typically devoid of inspiration.
Art has two aspects which give it value, the objecive beauty of the art pieace and the effort that goes into it. We see many youtube art challenges where the end result is passably pleasing but when you learn that it was drawn with a pencil tied to someone's pinky it gains a lot of value. AI art can be objectively beautiful but the only impressive part about it is that AI is capable of producing it. Once AI has produced many art pieces it's not particularly impressive and the art has the same value as any other AI art. The machine in Yumi can make impressive stacks but it can't draw as many spirits as a yoki-hijo because there's no challenge to it.
I did not pick up on it when I read the book, but after listening to the book club, it is pretty obvious. Can we do what they did and just destroy all the software that creates AI. Probably not.
Similar to how I think humans using AI to enhance their ability to create their own art is a reasonable direction to go, I'd be curious to see what would happen if a version of one of those machines were guided by an artist instead of just left to stack on it's own, i.e. used to enhance the artist's own abilities
It shows even though art Can be mass produced it doesn’t mean it should. Art is about the individual person putting passion into something beautiful. A machine stacking rocks just studied Yumi and other yoki Hejo and tries to duplicate not doing it nearly as good.
I feel that technology should not do the work or create for us. It should only be used to help us which is why I think Yumi felt it was an abomination. They wanted it to takeover her job instead of helping.
What is art? Are we art? Is art art?
:( they didn't talk about Design. They glossed over her last episode.
It's true that AI is lowering the bar of entry to produce pretty imagery, but I think eventually, our favorite works will still be ones made by proper artists, with all the knowledge and experience that entails, who simply used AI to take their works to another level.
Just think what the scholars could have done if they had worked with the yoki-hijo instead of against them!
The AI systems/coffee are art themselves just like the machine. But the products of both are in some way less than art created by humans. Though, art is intrinsically subjective so there's no real line, but on the averages, I think it will be true to an extent because of the human connection.
I read fantasy to leave reality. I honestly did not connect the story to AI art generation. To me, it was just a fun story that I love!
Both Yumi and AI depict art devoid of feeling that would be so much more better if humans did it. Also AI can't do hands and feet and the machine couldn't do anything but straight line rocks
There are a lot of parallels between Yumi and AI art - I really feel for the people in Hollywood on strike and the real fear that their jobs are at risk long-term because of the ability AI could have at churning out so much content. We've had this same fear with books and the printing press, but this time around - the tech innovation seems far more...sinister in nature, at least, in principle. We've already seen AI learn to be discriminatory through AI Chatbots...I fear what they will create next after absorbing what we have done on the internet. I mean...what could possibly go wrong?
I think the impact of A.I art will be somewhat similar to the commercialization of art - you touched it a bit in "The Emperor's soul" with the imperial forgerers and Shai's disdain for them.
As for AI art - On the one hand, art is art and it is subjective. There will always be people who would like It and the idea that it was generated by a computer. On the other hand, they way the models were built, it will be tough to prove who needs to get the credit, who got copied and it will definitely hurt the artists.
It is called the 4th technological revolution for a reason. But I hope the effects will not be so catastrophic like on Yumi's world
The writers strike specifically comes to mind with the issues with AI art coming to the forefront. Mass produced AI scripts could be a thing. While I feel a marvel movie or Star Wars movie could be written by an AI, it can definitely lose the human element. A virtuoso like Yumi will always be better than an AI.
The importance of Intent and the passion of art is something that has long bothered me in terms of TV writing in general- media has proven capable of producing high-budget stories of mediocre writing, which is fine only so far as the audience accepts the given show or movie for what it is. However, with AI I think we will get a dramatic shift in a rise of writing quality consistency that is foreign to Hollywood, but without the passion. I think it will be a good thing, once we find a balance between human art and AI art in both utility and legality of application.
It shows that AI fundamentally can not grasp humans ability to make choices. We're too chaotic. It can and will be excellent at imitating humans ability to choose. But it will always have an algorithm, and it's difficult to reproduce a chaotic human following their own personal logic and emotion. That choice is demonstrated in art, the choice to like or not like something.
I've retype this twice now, and I'm giving up on making the above paragraph make any more sense 😅
When painter turned in unoriginal bamboo paintings because it “worked”. Felt like people who use a.I. to make art because it’s an easy way to make money. Using little effort and no passion to create it. Although this definitely also parallels as the burnout or disillusioned artist probably better- however when we get to the end seeing how this mirrors how the machine is mass producing work it does feel connected somehow although the machine is definitely more obvious.
I like the idea of comparing the father machine to an artistic AI - it seems to me that the AI (or machine) can elaborate and mix and match styles which it has seen before, but will not be able to come up with something truly original. It makes you think about what real originality is, since it's so hard to come up with some art which doesn't cause people (who are knowledgeable) to say "oh yeah, that's a bit like this and a bit like that". In short, most of the time, I think the AI would be able to do a reasonable job - bearing in mind that the art in these worlds is essentially utilitarian: It just summons spirits or dismisses nightmares, rather than specifically having to make people satisfied - which would need to answer to some higher calling of originality only with real connoisseurs
A.I. does a good job of copying art, but can not create art the same way an artist can. The machine can stack rocks, but it will never be as effective as Yumi.
I'm an idiot because I do idiotic things.
Oops I'm an idiot
The AI parallel I see is poor implementation causing implosion of the thing it was supposed to support. Some media outlets have tried replacing their staff with AI, lawyers have use AI for research, not realizing that AI is confidently and hilariously wrong all the time. AI has no understanding of what its saying or doing. This has led to articles announcing fake games or even switching from translated Spanish back to the original English, or in the lawyers' case legal paperwork being submitted to real court citing fake case law and fake statutes making internally inconsistent arguments.
Big disaster, like in Yumi.
The parallel that I see is the lack of, literally, organic evolution/innovation. We can use AI art as a tool, but if we try and rely solely on AI art then it will stagnate for, oh, 1700 years? Just kidding. Art plays such a massive role in our society, both directly and indirectly, and there is really no limit to what can be art. Relying on AI might ultimately limit what we even consider art.