"I can't finish the epic without saving some friends." Like the way Donoghue said that. And I think you are right about the reasoning for Virgil in paradise. Great conversation!
This is so much fun . Steve extras insights have been stimulating and I really enjoyed the dynamic between you . I really understand the passion of Dante now and why he is trying so hard to find an explanation and a solution to these universal questions
Another gem, thank you! You are such a gracious host. Will you please post when the Italian film comes out in Italy and how we will be able to access it here in the US? Many thanks.
Just a wish, but I would like if you and Donoghue discuss every Canto from beginning to end. It's such an interesting dynamic that you two have. The irony that you two are on completely different sides of faith makes such an entertaining and fascinating back and forth that I can only say it is Divine Comedy in itself.
Finally catching up with myself and Dante. I loved this canto. The ideas are fascinating but what made me love this one is the imagery from music, nature and light. Isn't it delightful how a lark arising pops up in literature across time? And thank you Steve for the hawk noise explanation. The description of the sound of a river was so beautiful but now it fits even better.
This is my husband's account, but this is me Eugenia. I totally appreciate your Dante series. As for Canto 20, I believe that Christ will appear to the soul at death, whether or not they had been Christian, but the goodness in their soul will enlighten them to Christ instantly. I am brought into this great opus of Dante's because of your great love for him. (How can a seemingly good and intelligent man like Steve Donoghue miss the forest for the trees?)
Hi Eugenia - thank you for your comment. It’s a grace every time I hear that my videos are a little spark for someone to approach the Divine Comedy. This masterwork has an unfair reputation for being difficult and stiff, but once you dive in, you realize that Dante often feels closer to you than one of your friends or relatives! As for Steve - yes, he’s indeed a man of great intelligence and heart. His relationship with God is, unfortunately, not a good one.
A really interesting, lively, deep and rich conversation between two people who are on different positions regarding the faith, but love Dante very much. Tanks and congratulations!
@@tomlabooks3263 It will most like be a few days before I get to Canto 21. I'm glad you're enjoying Virtual Mode. I'm looking forward to your final thoughts.
@@HeyYallListenUp I'm still trying to get used to the female first-person, I might be narrow-minded as a reader but it's been a long time since I read one ! It's not a problem, it just feels a bit weird.
@@tomlabooks3263 Now that I'm older, I do struggle with a female POV, especially one as young as Colene. The later books are multiple POV, which I think Anthony does well.
I never thought about the possibility of Ripheus representing Virgil, but now that you mention it, that theory makes a lot of sense. Regarding King David, he was not only considered a model ruler and prophet, but he also made genuine teshuvah (repentance, return) for his adultery with Batsheva. Polygamy was also allowed in Judaism at the time, so long as one didn't marry closely related women (like sisters or a mother and daughter), and as long as one supported all these wives equally. Perhaps Dante also subscribed to the Medieval beliefs about harpists and thus felt playing the harp gave King David magical powers.
Thank you - that is, in fact, the most likely reason why David was chosen. Every old testament hero has massive flaws, including Moses, but they are still models, and David was the “model ruler” like you said. Thanks for watching this slightly rambly video 😅
Limbo: here reside the spirits of those who have lived before Christanity... understanding the peculiarities of medieval approach to ancient texts is Paramount to understanding Dante , a supreme example of a MEDIEVAL mentality. See the outstanding discussion in C S Lewis" The Discarded Image" an indespensible work on Medieval literature...not long ,not complicated,but very rich...a wealth of insight...all the best... Oh vana Gloria de l' umane posse Com poco verde in su la cima dura
This was enlightening and enjoyable, thanks for adding this dimension to a look at Canto XX. I found A Esolen's analysis to be intriguing: ". . . each of the six souls is shown as one who did not see something on earth, but who, enjoying the pleasure of irony, does see it now. . . . We expect the appropriate, and receive the unexpected, which turns out to be more appropriate still." (Intro p. xxxi) The makes room for David (whew) who apparently had no idea when we wrote what it really means. Seems like we're pushing the boundaries of sensibility here. Does it seem that way to you?
Thank you Kathleen, yes I like Esolen’s comment and I would agree, it makes a lot of sense, especially under the light of the “weirdest” presence in the heaven of Jupiter, which is Ripheus. I love Esolen’s translation, btw.
One bit you don't get to talk about is line 94 to 99. The Kirkpatrick translation is a little odd here so I assume he was trying to capture something from the Italian. Any enlightenment from you?
So glad you asked, Ros: this is such an important and difficult passage. Here is Mandelbaum's: "Regnum coelorum suffers violence / from ardent love and living hope, for these / can be the conquerors of Heaven's will; / yet not as man defeats another man: / the Will of God is won because It would / be won and, won, wins through benevolence" It's passage that echoes (almost copies) Matthew 11:12, with its strange mention of "violence": "From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent bear it away." This also inspired the Flannery O'Connor story "The violent bear it away". The spiritual meaning of this gospel passage is not simple: some biblical scholars have seen in this a reference to the "Zealots", a Jewish sect that in Jesus's times were resorting to physical violence against the Romans, actual assassinations. Jesus would condemn this sect. Other scholars, probably the majority of them, read the "violence" as a symbol of the zeal and the earnestness that Christians should have in fighting evil, along the lines of another sentence pronounced by Jesus: "I haven't come to bring peace, but the sword!", which clearly didn't mean "war", but determination and aggressiveness in fighting the Christian spiritual fight. In other words, a true Christian life is so difficult to live that you can't approach it with a lukewarm energy, it requires great strength. Dante gives this an additional twist, because he says that for some people, with their extraordinary love and hope, it's as if they were imposing their will on God's own will, because it seems like they are breaking God's rules (by being saved while not knowing the gospel, or by not being called Christians), BUT in reality it is God who, by accepting them into his Kingdom, wins with His love. So by "being won" by their love, he wins as well, and they win. I hope this makes a iota of sense!
To enjoy Dante simply read him...accept the contradictions, inconsistencies, ambiguities, just like you would with any lover or human being...don't sweat towing the theological or doctrinal line; the poetry isn't about that( for Christ's sake!) for a revelatory view into the Medieval mind and it's furnishings so foreign to our own read Clive Staples Lewis The Discarded Image... indispensable, unburdened with technical jargon, brilliant! all the best ☮️
"the words are unambiguous 'no one comes to the Father except through me"" your guest, like fundamentalists and strict interpreters of the constitution on the supreme court, errs in thinking that the way they read the words is the only way to read the words.
I am a 73 year old widow of the sudden death of my husband of 45 years five years five years ago, . I took a free course on Devine comedy for something to do in Lent . I came upon your beautiful discussions as supplemental readings by chance . They are so helpful, especially for old first-time readers of the Devine Comedy I was born and raised Irish Catholic in Massachusetts and thought I was much like mr Donaghue most of my life. That some times can come across as antagonist to Catholicism in particular. In all of the Devine Comedy, I see much of the journey one embarks on in 12 step recovery. In that capacity I offer my own premise as to why David is present and it goes back to when David challenges Goliath. He is just a shepherd boy bringing his brother who are in the army lunch. Everyone is aware of Goliaths arrogance and challenge .No one wants to step up and take on the Giant. But David finds courage and does. Saul who later comes to disise David, gives him a suit of armour. David initially takes it, but later takes it off and goes to battle the giant protected only by the armor of God. Sometimes in life be in in the 1300 rds or now people all have challenges to face. They can do it basically in two ways . 1 by trusting themselves and their own self knowledge or 2. By trusting and relying on their higher power ( that inner voice of the Holy spirt that’s speaks to all of we David’s In life as we each face our personal giants and to be as that higher power ( God ) would have us Be. Granted David went on to do bad things but the core of David’s soul was that of the young Shepard who took off his self protection armor , gave his fear to God and trusted and accepted Gods outcome .
wonderful watching the two of you together. You guys are so different from each other but work together really well!
Haha yes, we are pretty much at the opposite sides of the spectrum… But not when it comes to books! (for the most part)
"I can't finish the epic without saving some friends." Like the way Donoghue said that. And I think you are right about the reasoning for Virgil in paradise. Great conversation!
This is so much fun . Steve extras insights have been stimulating and I really enjoyed the dynamic between you . I really understand the passion of Dante now and why he is trying so hard to find an explanation and a solution to these universal questions
Yes Steve brings Boccaccio-like entertainment to every conversation!! : )
Another gem, thank you! You are such a gracious host. Will you please post when the Italian film comes out in Italy and how we will be able to access it here in the US? Many thanks.
I will be glad to. I can’t wait to see it.
Just a wish, but I would like if you and Donoghue discuss every Canto from beginning to end. It's such an interesting dynamic that you two have. The irony that you two are on completely different sides of faith makes such an entertaining and fascinating back and forth that I can only say it is Divine Comedy in itself.
Hahaha who knows , maybe one day! Thanks for your comment.
Finally catching up with myself and Dante. I loved this canto. The ideas are fascinating but what made me love this one is the imagery from music, nature and light. Isn't it delightful how a lark arising pops up in literature across time? And thank you Steve for the hawk noise explanation. The description of the sound of a river was so beautiful but now it fits even better.
So true. Beauty is universal!
This is my husband's account, but this is me Eugenia. I totally appreciate your Dante series. As for Canto 20, I believe that Christ will appear to the soul at death, whether or not they had been Christian, but the goodness in their soul will enlighten them to Christ
instantly. I am brought into this great opus of Dante's because of your great love for him.
(How can a seemingly good and intelligent man like Steve Donoghue miss the forest for the trees?)
Hi Eugenia - thank you for your comment. It’s a grace every time I hear that my videos are a little spark for someone to approach the Divine Comedy. This masterwork has an unfair reputation for being difficult and stiff, but once you dive in, you realize that Dante often feels closer to you than one of your friends or relatives!
As for Steve - yes, he’s indeed a man of great intelligence and heart. His relationship with God is, unfortunately, not a good one.
A really interesting, lively, deep and rich conversation between two people who are on different positions regarding the faith, but love Dante very much. Tanks and congratulations!
Thank you Louise, glad you enjoyed the chat!
Fascinating discussion.
Thanks John for watching! I've started Virtual Mode, I'm at page 80 and I'm already enjoying it. Will keep you posted.
@@tomlabooks3263 It will most like be a few days before I get to Canto 21. I'm glad you're enjoying Virtual Mode. I'm looking forward to your final thoughts.
@@HeyYallListenUp I'm still trying to get used to the female first-person, I might be narrow-minded as a reader but it's been a long time since I read one ! It's not a problem, it just feels a bit weird.
@@tomlabooks3263 Now that I'm older, I do struggle with a female POV, especially one as young as Colene. The later books are multiple POV, which I think Anthony does well.
I never thought about the possibility of Ripheus representing Virgil, but now that you mention it, that theory makes a lot of sense.
Regarding King David, he was not only considered a model ruler and prophet, but he also made genuine teshuvah (repentance, return) for his adultery with Batsheva. Polygamy was also allowed in Judaism at the time, so long as one didn't marry closely related women (like sisters or a mother and daughter), and as long as one supported all these wives equally. Perhaps Dante also subscribed to the Medieval beliefs about harpists and thus felt playing the harp gave King David magical powers.
Thank you - that is, in fact, the most likely reason why David was chosen. Every old testament hero has massive flaws, including Moses, but they are still models, and David was the “model ruler” like you said. Thanks for watching this slightly rambly video 😅
Limbo: here reside the spirits of those who have lived before Christanity...
understanding
the peculiarities of medieval approach to ancient texts is Paramount to understanding Dante , a supreme example of a MEDIEVAL mentality.
See the outstanding discussion in C S Lewis" The Discarded Image" an indespensible work on Medieval literature...not long ,not complicated,but very rich...a wealth of insight...all the best...
Oh vana Gloria de l' umane posse
Com poco verde in su la cima dura
@@chrisbeveridge3066 That’s a great suggestion, thanks Chris. I love C.S. Lewis.
This was enlightening and enjoyable, thanks for adding this dimension to a look at Canto XX. I found A Esolen's analysis to be intriguing: ". . . each of the six souls is shown as one who did not see something on earth, but who, enjoying the pleasure of irony, does see it now. . . . We expect the appropriate, and receive the unexpected, which turns out to be more appropriate still." (Intro p. xxxi) The makes room for David (whew) who apparently had no idea when we wrote what it really means. Seems like we're pushing the boundaries of sensibility here. Does it seem that way to you?
Thank you Kathleen, yes I like Esolen’s comment and I would agree, it makes a lot of sense, especially under the light of the “weirdest” presence in the heaven of Jupiter, which is Ripheus. I love Esolen’s translation, btw.
One bit you don't get to talk about is line 94 to 99. The Kirkpatrick translation is a little odd here so I assume he was trying to capture something from the Italian. Any enlightenment from you?
So glad you asked, Ros: this is such an important and difficult passage. Here is Mandelbaum's: "Regnum coelorum suffers violence / from ardent love and living hope, for these / can be the conquerors of Heaven's will; / yet not as man defeats another man: / the Will of God is won because It would / be won and, won, wins through benevolence" It's passage that echoes (almost copies) Matthew 11:12, with its strange mention of "violence": "From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent bear it away." This also inspired the Flannery O'Connor story "The violent bear it away". The spiritual meaning of this gospel passage is not simple: some biblical scholars have seen in this a reference to the "Zealots", a Jewish sect that in Jesus's times were resorting to physical violence against the Romans, actual assassinations. Jesus would condemn this sect. Other scholars, probably the majority of them, read the "violence" as a symbol of the zeal and the earnestness that Christians should have in fighting evil, along the lines of another sentence pronounced by Jesus: "I haven't come to bring peace, but the sword!", which clearly didn't mean "war", but determination and aggressiveness in fighting the Christian spiritual fight. In other words, a true Christian life is so difficult to live that you can't approach it with a lukewarm energy, it requires great strength. Dante gives this an additional twist, because he says that for some people, with their extraordinary love and hope, it's as if they were imposing their will on God's own will, because it seems like they are breaking God's rules (by being saved while not knowing the gospel, or by not being called Christians), BUT in reality it is God who, by accepting them into his Kingdom, wins with His love. So by "being won" by their love, he wins as well, and they win. I hope this makes a iota of sense!
@@tomlabooks3263 I am relieved this is a difficult passage and so not just me. Your explanation helps and I'll find a copy of Matthew to compare.
To enjoy Dante simply read him...accept the contradictions, inconsistencies, ambiguities, just like you would with any lover or human being...don't sweat towing the theological or doctrinal line; the poetry isn't about that( for Christ's sake!)
for a revelatory view into the Medieval mind and it's furnishings so foreign to our own read Clive Staples Lewis The Discarded Image... indispensable, unburdened with technical jargon, brilliant!
all the best ☮️
“All the best” after scolding two lifelong Dante readers like they were errant schoolchildren. And people wonder why I hate “all the best.”
I think you'd really enjoy Franny And Zooey by Salinger...one of the best books ever! my humble opinion of course...
Thank you I read it many years ago right after reading The Catcher in the Rye, I remember enjoying it a lot.
"the words are unambiguous 'no one comes to the Father except through me"" your guest, like fundamentalists and strict interpreters of the constitution on the supreme court, errs in thinking that the way they read the words is the only way to read the words.
Yes. My guest is a good friend, and he loves Dante, but his understanding of religion, unfortunately, is very little! : )
😀
I am a 73 year old widow of the sudden death of my husband of 45 years five years five years ago, . I took a free course on Devine comedy for something to do in Lent . I came upon your beautiful discussions as supplemental readings by chance . They are so helpful, especially for old first-time readers of the Devine Comedy
I was born and raised Irish Catholic in Massachusetts and thought I was much like mr Donaghue most of my life. That some times can come across as antagonist to Catholicism in particular. In all of the Devine Comedy, I see much of the journey one embarks on in 12 step recovery. In that capacity I offer my own premise as to why David is present and it goes back to when David challenges Goliath. He is just a shepherd boy bringing his brother who are in the army lunch. Everyone is aware of Goliaths arrogance and challenge .No one wants to step up and take on the Giant. But David finds courage and does. Saul who later comes to disise David, gives him a suit of armour. David initially takes it, but later takes it off and goes to battle the giant protected only by the armor of God. Sometimes in life be in in the 1300 rds or now people all have challenges to face. They can do it basically in two ways .
1 by trusting themselves and their own self knowledge or 2. By trusting and relying on their higher power ( that inner voice of the Holy spirt that’s speaks to all of we David’s In life as we each face our personal giants and to be as that higher power ( God ) would have us Be. Granted David went on to do bad things but the core of David’s soul was that of the young Shepard who took off his self protection armor , gave his fear to God and trusted and accepted Gods outcome .