Ep. 270 | The Scout Rifle Concept - Genius or Frankenstein Failure
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ม.ค. 2023
- The scout rifle concept carries with it a storied history. What are the benefits of the scout rifle? Did it ever really accomplish what it was intended to do? Are we creating modern scout rifles today and not even knowing it? Tune in as Mark Boardman, Jimmy Hamilton, and Ryan Muckenhirn chat all about this interesting rifle, its curious attributes, and if it got caught in the land of in-between.
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The accuracy thing is always hilarious. “My rifle can shoot one hole!”
“Ok, can YOU?”
😂😂 You're not wrong.
All my rifles shoot one hole and they all do it on the first shot. 😁
@@biggs8729 mine too!!!! WOW! We’re twins
One of the most overlooked aspects of having a 'traditional' styled Scout Rifle is:
I can have it with me, in all 50 states, without setting off alarm bells in most people (they see: hunting rifle)
AND...
not banned anywhere, so won't raise eyebrows with the law.
(but still effective)
Mossberg MVP Predator, 308, Vortex Crossfire II 3-12.
"308, because shooting anything more than twice... is dumb." ~Unnamed TH-camr channel
This is EXACTLY why I got my Savage Scout. PMAGS in a bolt action with both eyes open shooting is GOLD. I can carry it anywhere, reload fast, and 10 round PMAGS can deal with a bunch of Boars, wolves, black bear, etc. And for the LARP aspect, it takes PMAGS for the wolverines fantasy 😅.
*edit* Hi-Lux 2-7x LER scope. Pretty sight picture + BDC option is made for .308 168 grain standard loads. Easy holdover.
The original Jeff Cooper scout rifle was a Remington 600 in .308 Win. And yes, I own one my Dad bought new in 1968.
@@vettelover2009if I remember correctly Jeff wrote about how he viewed the scout concept. But I think he stated that this type of rifle is built pretty much to the taste of the end user
Likely because it was the only rifle that could be made to his weight specs. The 600 was 5.5 lbs. bare, so you could add a scope/sling and still come in under the 6.6 lb. requirements.
K98 with a ZF41 optic in WWll was the first scout rifle I’ve seen. Remember these were still combat rifles and could only be rapidly reloaded with stripper clips. The fact that the scope was long eye relief also allows you to shoot well from different positions because eye relief was not a big problem as with traditional scopes.
The 308 is the all season tire of the gun world.
The all season tire is marketed like it's the 308 of tires. It fails where 308 succeeds.
@@newerest1
Yeah, I could agree with that.
The Goldie Locks of cartridge... It's just right 👍
*all weather
The 308 has been doing it for years, and it is still very relevant.
Mark, I applaud you for the mini van tangent! Growing up my folks had a mini van and a small hatchback Nissan. My dad hauled more stuff in that mini van than anyone ever could with a trainer truck! He threw full sheets of plywood and sheet rock in the back of that thing as well as refrigerators and chest freezers. Then he would put the seats back in and load up for family vacations!
my family did more off roading than we did in our truck. awsome vehicle. we ripped off the front bumper going off roading. the peoples faces that pulled off to the side of the road because "it was to rough" were priceless.
Toyota Previa All Trac S/C FTW!
Mini vans are so slept on in the car world
I have an AR I SCOUT CONFIGURATION IN 7.62X39. WORKS WELL.
ALSO AN M48 MAUSER IN SAME CONFIGURATION.
We love hearing you three talk about the history of the gun world. This channel is way underrated. Thanks to all three of you.
I check the sub count every time and am consistently surprised (its not A LOT higher)
Love the channel guys. Cooper used the Model 600 Remington as the first scout, aptly named Scout 1. He then built his Lion scout for safari work in Africa based on a Brno ZKK in .350 rem mag. Scout 3 was a Ruger M77 mk1 with a No1 rail. It'd be interesting to know where these original builds are today.
😮hh
😊 39:14 on
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49:10 lmlnl
🎉🎉lea
Went in expecting an interesting episode about scout rifles based on the different-looking one in the thumbnail.
Came out having listened to a discussion about the philosophy of shooting.
10/10 episode.
At one time I owned a Guniste Gunsmitty produced (Col. Cooper) scout rifle it sported a pistol scope and was chambered in 7mm-08. On a medium distance hike we 6 of us encountered a menacing can of shaving cream at an unknown distance somewhere around 150 yards, My buddies sent a hail of AK and AR rounds at it as it stood annoying tall in silhouette; this rifle hit the can on the first shot and neutralized the threat with authority. A very good day.
Great discussion- the idea of the scout/utility rifle is having it with you or close by at all times. Handy, light enough to carry ALL the time. In the South we call it a truck gun… versus the belly benchrest rifles or kitchen sink ARs that you never take with you. Love my Vortex optics, keep ‘em coming guys
My Scout rifle is Mossberg Patriot in 7mm-08 Rem with a reflex sight mounted on the forward scope rail. Very light and handy.
I think Jeff Cooper would have also added a suppressor.
Especially a titanium considering just how light those things can be, and it's going on a long-ish barrel.
Possibly. Compact overall length and low weight are arguably the two most important characteristics of a Scout rifle, and a suppressor negates both.
Doubtful. The scout concept isn't about extended contact and the consequent need to obscure from which direction the rounds originated.
@@gpearce11 SWS style integral suppressor would work well
Jeff Cooper would have scoffed at the idea of shoving a suppressor on a scout rifle.
If I recall my first experience with Cooper and the scout rifle I believe it’s parameters were also based on his experience as a border patrol officer. Quick, reliable and versatile was his goal and seems to be the bases for the scout rifle. The mode of transportation was horses and jeeps back then in the back country. Another reason for the scout concept.
Pretty sure that Cooper never served with the Border Patrol. Is it possible that you're maybe thinking of Bill Jordan?
Border Patrol and hunting in Africa definitely influenced his perspective, I have a couple just because it’s fun to run & gun with bolt guns 🤷♂️
I've never considered having a scout rifle.....but after watching this episode (to quote Mark) "I want that".
Dude they don't even have one on the table.
I've come to the conclusion from watching enough of these that the guy on the right knows stuff. And the two clowns on the left. Don't know anything. But let's be clear, the thing on the table is not a scout rifle. A scout rifle should have iron sights, that does not appear to. It should have a forward mounted fast eye relief scope, that doesn't have one. I don't subscribe to the theory that a scout style rifle should have to have a 308. I actually think that the 300 WSM is fine, I think for many the 6.5 Creedmoor is enough. But let's be clear that thing has too many bullets, that big magazine takes up space which interferes with maneuverability and use, but also It's weight. The flashlight on it, carry one in the pack, or in your pocket. It's just taking weight. That's going to slow you down, You can't bring that gun up as quickly, It's also not going to be as balanced. Whoever put this gun together is a moron. An absolute moron.
I met a guy who hunted with the Ruger scout rifle. He loved how it balanced
LGS had a lefty one in stock. Of course, I was broke at the time...
i haven’t encountered anything mine couldn’t do. right bullet paired with practice can do everything you need.
taking the carry handle off the AR 15 changed everything about the AR 15 and in my opinion has helped to drive that market. You can mount a satellite dish on the AR now!
You gotta love a $2000 scope on a $500 gun😁
Jim did run a Razor on a Ruger American so it's not out of character for him 🤣.
@@nuckyduk15 🤣🤣
Damn right you gotta love it., because that's really the smart way to do things. Makes a lot more sense than a $179 Simmons on a fine Weatherby...
@@ronkruchten5867 agreed!!!
That's how it should be
I remember reading Cooper's Gun Digest article in which he described his "Scout Rifle" concept. ALL factory offerings with the moniker are overweight by his specifications (7.7lbs loaded). Forward mounting of the scope is the LEAST important feature of the concept and was mainly to allow room to use stripper clips and to make the rifle easy to carry by holding it at it's balance point. Use a protruding, detachable magazine and the "Scout Scope" is moot. An interesting fact is that Cooper also coined the term "Ghost Ring" to describe an aperture sight with the aperture removed, allowing the aperture housing to be used as a very coarse, fast aperture.
Another thing that also brought the scout scope concept back up was when the Mosins were coming in and you could pick one up for $100. Then easily put on a scout scope.
Mausers, Mosins, Arisaka, and now even the Carcano we're plentiful and around to be modified.
@@cpt.ed.powell and now they aren’t anymore, mostly because everyone and their dog modified them.
I love the history of Lt Col. Jeff Cooper and his philosophy on gun fighting, frankly revolutionary, and more importantly he actually put a good name for us Marines out there, but with that being said I'm a POG and never saw combat so his views on that don't necessarily apply to my life at this moment in the very least.
But my main view of his scout rifle concept specifically is this, it is a general tool that can work really well in a lot of situations. But the situation I feel it's perfect for is one that's very personal, hunting in the Southeast USA, specifically the Appalachian Mountains (I know that's a dirty phrase to most western/mid western hunters) our game isn't quite as big, black bears being the biggest, which 6.5 and .308 take care of handily, the longest possible shot I've seen after kicking around a small bit of varied (flatland, mountain, and coastal areas of the southeast) public land is maybe 350-400 yards, and that's not very common. The short rifle length is good for kicking around the underbrush and old growth, but sufficient enough to do whatever we need in terms of velocity and range. The low powered optics also lend themselves to the quick snap shooting sometimes necessary as well as not too much extra magnification that you don't quite need in these areas. In addition to all that, I think I'm just biased because of the Marine Kinship he and I share haha
This Podcast gets 5 Ryans! Gonna make my Henry 45-70 in to a scout rifle. Thanks for the inspiration.
The "Ryan Scale" is the most precise of measures! Thanks for listening!
I ran my Marlin 30-30 with a scout scope for years and years for hunting up close in the brush. Only just changed it out as my old eyes needed something that picked up more light
I love the dynamic of the 3 of you. Thanks guys. I will build a “scout” 300aac soon 14.7” pinned and welded barrel
Who made your barrel? I'd love a 13.7"-9" or a 14.5"
The scout rifle is the ultimate utilitarian rifle, useful for any situation. It's been one of my addictions for decades, been fascinated by Cooper's concept and over the years have settled with my 30-30 with a scout scope and all leather harness sling and holds 60 extra rounds.
Decided to get a modern 30-30 with all them fancy rails and adjustable stock and stuff and put a red dot up front on it and it works great for up close shooting.
Hunted ptarmigan, grouse, duck, rabbit, lynx, coyote, wolves, deer, caribou, moose, bison with it and no complaints.
I built an AR-15 Carbine with ALG Defense V3 full rail Vortex Scout scope, BEST ALL AROUND brush hunting rifle. Irons @ 45degrees, and a laser sight. You have a HUGE VIEW and see in the scope too.
Great topic with excellent talking points. Right at the end of this podcast, you guys left a perfect segway into the next podcast... Leverguns! From early history to the recent evolution into modern suppressed/tactical leverguns. 😉😉
I think Col Cooper intended the scout to be the actual "do all", hunting, hiking, self-defense, it's a great idea/concept for a general-purpose rifle. I made one out of a 308 Isha pore jungle carbine, it is sweet! 10 rds on tap, got more in the scope than the pawn shop bargain.
I always thought the best Scout rifle would be a savage model 99 308win with a quick detach scout scope
Now that's one classy Scout Rifle!
That would be cool as hell. Had an old friend that hunted with a 308 m99. I have never seen one since. Would love to have one.
Love the podcast, all you guys rock, but Ryan is probably my favorite gun person to listen to!
When it comes to scout rifles, I recently familiarized myself with the concept and realized that actually my main rifle is a modern one to a degree. As a EU person, I cannot have all the rifles I want, that's why on this side of the ocean we tend to choose more utilitarian guns. Mine is a Blaser R93 I got from my father, in green polymer stock with short barrel (less than 1meter overall) in 308 and Viper PST Gen2 1-6 on top. This is my main hunting and shooting gun(as I hardly ever target shoot, I have the diamondback tactical as a scope for fun shooting). Until recently, it had iron (plastic actually) sights but I finally decided to get rid of them and threaded barrel to put an over barrel suppressor. I also have a .243 longer barrel with suppressor and 3-15x50 LHT as my roe/predator gun. This simple, yet functional scout-ish rifle does it all for me :)
Great podcast, and fun topic. I use a ruger gunsite scout in 308 for my woods/deer gun. I tried a scout scope when I first got it, eventually taking it off. I now have the irons striped off and razor hd LH 1.5-8x32 on top, and swap between a harvester 30 suppressor and a forward blast diverter if I want to keep it short.
The 16in has taken many deer and 308 really shows it’s virtues with short barrels. Not much is lost compared to other calibers. Ballistically a 16in 308 is a lot like the 303 or 300 savage. The same principles of bullet performance apply now as they did decades ago; at mild velocities with a wide frontal area, heavy soft bullets will expand, shed weight, and cause massive damage. The only twist in modern times is slick high BC designs help mitigate the lost velocity. With mild muzzle velocities of 2400fps, using soft match bullets like the 168g TMK or ELDM/amax are utterly devastating from such a compact rifle. When pushed slow, they open up and shed mass gradually and yield great penetration. Push them fast, and they’ll blow up. I know Ryan likes his copper, just be careful on your ranges with the slower muzzle velocity. Bullet selection becomes a bit pickier.
Personally love the scout rifle. Just a fun concept and practical gun. As someone who has a vortex 2-7 scout optic on their Ruger GSR though could you please update the reticle on the optic? Make it illuminated and add some sort of BDC
The Burris 2x7 has bdc holds and is better than the vortex
Love the channel and love the scout rifle concept. My brother runs a mossberg mvp flex 308 as his scout rifle and it is awesome, I wanted to be a bit different so I went with the ruger ranch in 7.62x39 and it is a superb scout rifle.
I really enjoy your podcast, its extremely entertaining and really informative. I mostly listen to it while I am in my reloading room while I process brass, etc.
Dude I love this. When I first got into hunting a few years back. I was a scout nerd. So I got a Ruger predator 308 and put a strike eagle cause it was “like a scout. I killed my first buck with it too. Cause I was too poor to get a gunsite! I love the build and episode!
Did you cut your barrel by chance? I'm looking to build a 308 or 7mm-08 predator as a woods gun but since I'm a lefty, I'm gonna cut the barrel to 18" and throw a LPVO on it.
The predator is a great woods gun. I loved mine other then the fact I was trying to make it do something it isn’t meant for. But as a no frills accurate hunting rifle, it’s great.
Great discussion. Bolt-action scout rifles are still very relevant in jurisdictions (like where I live) where semi-autos are heavily restricted.
Just found you guys. And I appreciate you doing what your doing. I'm learning alot and you fellas are a good listen.... thanks again and be well
I was really expecting a Long Eye Relief (LER) "Scout Scope" on something called a "Scout Rifle", but you guys did a good job of explaining your choice. I put a 2-7 x32 LER onto a 30-30 to try it out. I think at this point I'm just going to swap it out with a red dot.
i think jeff cooper would choose an aimpoint for scout rifles if he lived today:
infinite eye relief, faster target acquisition, more peripheral awareness, and still allows use of irons on a dead battery....
I did the same on my Win 30-30 I had a 4x pistol scope loved it
Mine was before red dots
One of the reasons for the forward mounted scout scope was to have the top of the action open for stripper clips.
Great information, I have been sharing your podcast with the Gateway to Airguns forum. Optics and their uses etc. are a big topic with the air rifle community.
When Col. Cooper first talked about the scout rifle concept, I had my answer - the Enfield No. 5! I have a scope mount for it and you can put a light on the front if you wish. Now if you need a .308 vs .303, then get an Ishapore, cut the barrel, put No. 5 furniture on it - and I would add tapping the barrel for a suppressor (vs flashhider).
But you’re vandalizing a piece of history that a mossberg mvp is only 600-800
@@baker90338 Depends on whether you're a shooter or collector.
It is hard not to wonder if Col. Cooper's idea didn't originate in part with the Lee-Enfield Mk. V No. I - a.k.a. the Jungle Carbine, since that late WW2 & early Cold War design checked off so many of the eventual boxes on Cooper's scout rifle concept. Other than mounting an optic conveniently, the Mk. V pretty much hit them all. And .303 British is ~ 90-95% the power of .308 Winchester, and has a proven track record of handling any game in N. America and much else around the world besides. And as you pointed out, if having .308 Winchester is of vital importance to you, simply get one of those Indian Ishapore Mk. Vs chambered in it from the factory.
Being someone who’s right handed and due to nerve damage can’t close their left eye by itself, I love the scout rifle. I only have two suggestions for improvement.
1. Lever action, generally speaking it’s faster than a bolt and it’s ambidextrous (good if you’re forced to switch to left handed to use iron sites because you can only close your right eye).
2. For the scope itself, I have a vortex crossfire scout scope and I found it much easier to focus on the reticle when I was sighting it in with a bore laser. If vortex could add a LED dot to the centre of the reticle it would help a lot. A parallax adjustment would be nice too.
I bought a ruger American compact in 308 and put a light and lower powered scope on it in November for my version of a light “scout rifle”. Funny to see this podcast now!
Ruger American's are very good rifles.
Episode #270 is not about the .270. *exaggerated Greta impression: How Dare Youh!
Depending upon when Cooper was asked and where you see his comments, his official criteria changed slightly over the years.
Simplistically, he wanted a reliable rifle with a forward mounted scope, backup sights chambered in a round capable of taking large game (up to 1,000 pounds) out to 400 yards as well as having sufficient accuracy to hit a man at that range. He felt the .223 was too small but the .308 and even the 7mm-08 were good rounds to fulfill this role.
His accuracy requirement was 2 MOA, which is better than the military rack grade expectation of 4 MOA.
Also, in the role of “scout” contact was to be avoided, hence, he didnt want the soldier to have a semi auto to prevent him from initiating contact needlessly.
A lot of old articles/interviews with him are interesting as they showed the Scout rifle was evolving as he worked on it.
BTW, I have a gray lam stocked Ruger GSR in .308 sans scope and love it!
I took my last deer with it at 80 yards.
I have a model 94 Winchester scout rifle and also have a 350 legend AR-15 scout rifle with a 1 to 10 power with offset iron sights. Love them both
Scout rifle is one of "if not" the most useful firearm you can possibly have if you actually use a firearm in a rural/outdoor environment.
It's a great handy rifle in 308win. The 308 does well with shorter barrels and that bodes well with an suppressor and 308win win hits pretty hard and has sufficient range.
A person can do a lot with shorter easier to use rifle.
Cooper’s parameters for the scout rifle make sense into the modern era with one exception. The ability to feed via stripper clips isn’t needed and it limited you to a scout style scope. The 1-10x really brings the concept back in full swing, heck most people in East of the Mississippi still have and use 3-9x for hunting.
I like the scout concept, have a few of them. Pretty sure one of the Col. Cooper requirements was that it had to be sub-7 lbs fully kitted-out.
Turns out that’s a fairly tall order. It’s not impossible but it’s tough if one doesn’t choose carefully.
@@me2bfc : Ruger American Predator with a cut down barrel or a Ruger compact and then add a crazy light Leupold scope - that might get you right at 7lbs.
@@perfect7liberty yea probably. IIRC even Steyr had trouble making the weight limit. I can't get too far into it. My 308 weighs nearly 11 lbs unloaded. Pretty fun to shoot though.
@@me2bfc Yeah it's particularly tough if you put big heavy scopes, lasers, and lights on the rifle.
Your example in the video is exactly how I spec'd out my 308 multitool rifle a couple years ago. My theory of use was as a modern bolt action scout rifle
I've "scouted" an M-1 Garand. Working wonderfully.
I would like to bulk on of those. Just depends on the area.
My “woods scout” is a marlin trapper in 45-70 with a IER 1-5x scope, ranger precision point stock, and a mloc flashlight. Figure it’s good for a charging bear and can reach to 150 yards for hunting.
My “scout” was purchased not because I wanted a “scout”(which I thought is a cool concept since I 1st read about it in the ‘90s) or even that it was a very short and handy rifle. But for what it is chambered in…358 Winchester. For a couple of years(‘07-‘08. Or maybe it was just ‘08) Ruger cataloged a Frontier Scout stainless with their Target Gray finish with a CHECKERED black laminated(Ruger just didn’t seem to want to checker their laminated for some reason until this model came out) compact stock in that cartridge. Mine included a picatinny rail that you could mount on the quarter rib that was drilled and tapped if you wanted to put a red dot on it. I just utilize a simple 2.5x IER scope. It is sub-2 MOA with pretty much anything I’ve loaded for it. My fave load for it is HOT. Necked up Lapua 308 case(this was before Starline offered 358 brass) capped with a CCI 200, 50gr of Ramshot Exterminator(WORK UP YOUR OWN LOAD IN YOUR OWN GUN. This works for my gun. Maybe not in yours!), and topped of with the now discontinued Barnes 200gr TSX. It does 2572fps 10ft from the muzzle. Inch and a half at 100yds. It’s my funnest hog slayer to date.
And the Marlin SBL 45-70 is way cool
Glad to have you guys back. Still waiting on that 300 Win Mag Ryan
Great video. It’s kinda funny because my long range bolt rifle for comps and hunting is 6.5CM @19.5” barrel length. I do have a TBAC Ultra 9 Gen 2 on it. Kinda seems like a scout rifle.
A couple topics I’d like to hear more of are:
1. Get Lightweight Dave back to talk about his updated setup to include that short rifle.
2. Talk Recce builds.
3. Building a rifle for the NRL Hunter Divisions.
Thanks and keep up the good work.
I think Cooper's parameter didn't necessarily denote a particular bolt action as the acceptable type of rifle. Some of his guidelines included: 36" or less OAL, 3.3 Kilograms weight, and chambered in a full power cartridge. There were more guidelines than that, but the idea of a rifle that fit into 6.6 lbs, and 3 feet or less, didn't leave many options other than a bolt gun with a shorter barrel.
As far as my thoughts go on the "Scout" rifle..... it would seem Cooper's suggestions were based on his experience, his preferences, and HIS thoughts. Well, I think it's safe to say most of us don't have that. Therefore as for me, I may not need exactly what Jeff Cooper needs. I think most of us could say that.
I do, however, think it is a good idea to consider. It really gives us something to start with, and coming from someone with a lot more experience and wisdom than a lot of us. So let's keep talking and examining these ideas. Try it in the field, that's really the test, and you may realize that your setup need tweaking.
Part of the concept was a bolt gun because I can be used almost everywhere around the world.
Here in the UK automatic rifles are banned, that includes semi auto unless it's a rimfire. Interesting podcast and have been watching this concept since I first saw it in the Gun digest annual in 1982
No, the reasons Jeff Cooper said "bolt gun" was because: shortness of action [means less weight], rapidity of follow up shots [a competent bolt gun user can fire almost as fast as a semiauto in any gun w/ noticeable recoil because the bolty is using the recoil recovery for running the action] and RELIABILITY(reliability)RELIABILITY [the .mil correlation to real estate's "location, location, location..."] All this per the man who created the Scout Rifle concept.
This was a great topic, looking forward to seeing Ryan’s build. I have a model 7 in 308 with a 16.5 inch barrel. Maybe I need to try one of those razor 1-10’s! It’s wearing a 2.5-8 now and is a helluva woods gun
I looked at the 1-6, 1-8, and the 1-10x all of these do not have a parallax adjustment, I went with Vortex PST 2-10x FFP/MOA with side focus; my old eyes the why reason.
I have been hunting with my Ruger scout since 2018. Made a get upgrades like the trigger guard, bedded it, longer rail. 1-8 Bushnell.
My answer to the scout rifle for myself is the mossberg mvp patrol in 7.62. Takes ar10 mags. It meets most of the specs but I never did care for the long eye relief so I use a nikon Buckmaster 3 to 9 by 40. Less than 2 moa with Remington core lokt 150. My land is almost all timber. Rarely shoot further than 150 yards. I love it. Works great for me.
Mossberg makes the MVP Scout, with or without the vortex scout scope.
The entire reason why Col. Cooper chose the bolt rifle was, and is chosen, is because of reliability . The entire concept was in case you only have one gun. Light, handy, short ,and reliable rifle .
except now a gas gun is literally more reliable.
@duroisgawd no way. The quality semi autos are much more reliable these days I agree, but just by the very nature of semi autos there is still more room for mechanical failure with a semi auto than a bolt. Would I trust a quality semi auto for my only weapon? If it was my only option , then yes. Quality semi autos cost alot more the a good bolt gun so there is that factor as well. I have some good semi auto ar rifles 308. 5.56. And I have a few very good bolt guns . At least in my experience my Ar rifles have failed at times . My bolt guns have never blinked. Is the semi auto a better choice for combat , self defense? Obviously. But if you are in a shtf situation, no more sending you gun off for repair, no more places to get ammo, your left with the one firearm you ever going to have for the foreseeable or even permanent future? The bolt gun is more reliable.
@@rustyyates421 yeah but depending on the bolt gun, if you don't run that bolt right even it is prone to failure. I wonder how often you shoot? A good gas gun is unstoppable these days. Ammo could be the culprit in either platform.
@duroisgawd I shoot quite a bit and as I said already, the gas operated guns are very reliable. I also said none of them are perfect bolt or otherwise. I also said , that in a shtf situation , when there may not a way any longer to get parts for your gun, no longer able get guns repaired, it's everyone for themselves, that moderately priced bolt guns are still more reliable . Semi autos have come along way , but you still usually have to spend more money for them.
@duroisgawd truth. You have to run any gun correctly. All I'm saying is that when you do, bolt guns, while they have their disadvantages, are inherently more reliable. One major disadvantage is that bolt guns are usually limited to low cap mags. But a scout rifle uses higher cap mag. People can choose what they want to for any reason. Realistically, if it were in a shtf scenario, it's going to be whatever you have on hand or can get to at the time.
If I remember correctly from when I looked into it, the primary role of the scout, in coopers mind, wasn't a fighting focused rifle. He specified 308 because he felt you could hunt anything on North America with it and it was available everywhere.
Cooper actually favored the 7mmO8 if you look more into it.
I think it was an Article in Guns and Ammo magazine years ago, early 2000’s or late 90’s when I first saw the discussion on the Scout concept, likely around the time the Styer was first released. In the article they discussed the scout concept and the Course that Gunsite used to offer, but I think have since dropped. One of the “Scout rifle” course highlights was shooting clay pigeons out of the air with your rifle, that was the modularity that the forward long eye-relief scout rifle concept was supposed to offer fast snap shooting that was mythical in the 80’s and 90’s but much more common today with red dot or modern 1-6 Combat scopes. The forward location was also to keep the action clear for loading, clearing malfunctions and to allow that near “red dot” style wide field of vision, while allowing some magnification for accurate placement of shots out to 300yard/meters. And was designed around .308 since it was relatively low recoil, could be loaded up or down in bullet and velocity for large or small game, yet also was easily and widely available pretty much world wide. At the time you could go into any store and find .308 Win in stock, while other more esoteric chambering such as the European 6.5’s (pre-Credmore/Grendel days), 300 mags, and more might be difficult to find.
If I remember right from what I read from Col. Cooper in some of his works and who I got to meet in 2005 at a Gunsite Military/Veteran course shortly before he passed, he got the idea from safari guides in South Africa who often had to have “fast” accurate shots on fast moving game that could be attacking their customers. They typically used even up until the mid 1900’s large caliber “stoping guns” that were .45 or larger “bore size” calibers with massive amounts of terminal energy, equipped with open sights so they could quickly and accurately put down dangerous game within that 100 yard/meter range. He wanted something similar that would allow for those fast shots at 25 out to 300 yard/meters at fast moving game or opponents, would be able to travel without drawing a lot of negative attention (Remember this was during the 1980-90 black gun bad phase), and had ammunition that was cheap and readily available. In the 1980’s there was still a lot of .308/7.62 NATO being used by police and militaries world wide in rifles like the FAL, so it was not unthinkable that if forced to that you could pick up some up pretty much anywhere.
A number of guys made Scout rifles out of older milsurp and cheaper basic bolt guns years ago. I've seen it done w/ Mosins, Mausers, Enfields, and Swiss carbines and short rifles. I'd love to have one of those Mossbergs.
One of the best inexpensive options, is one of my favorite rifles. The Remington 783 Synthetic with a 16.5" HB cut 1 in 10" chambered in 308.
Today I would probably start my build with a Howa mini action Carbon...
I believe in the modern guise the use of an LPVO and a box magazine bottom metal is a decent replacement for the long eye relief scope and stripper clips, as the box magazines solve the rapid reloading requirement.
Jeff Cooper also liked a big boar rifle. The 376 Steyr was with in the specs he was looking for. I think the 35 Whelen would also be a great choice.
On that note; one that never took off but would fill this perfectly: 338 RCM
That was what he called the “Dragoon” I built one on a Yugoslav Mauser action.
The really big bore was “baby” in 460 G&A.
@@HondoTrailside honestly I think THE very best cartridge for this platform is the granddaddy of most of our cherished cartridges. Including our 35 Whelen: 8x57
I’d recommend you give a 2.5 Leupold scout scope with a German #1 a try, set for max point blank range. I’ve used it on some quick moving coyotes. It works both eyes open and it’s a pretty smooth transition from what you’re looking at to center post on target.
I’ve got three scouts. One factory rifle, a Ruger Gunsite, and then two custom builds on Mauser 98 actions. My favorite is a 35 Whelen AI built on a K98 action (so I can use the stripper clips) with a 2-8x pistol scope. Shot my first moose with this rifle at about 225yds
Ruger Scout did a good thing as well by putting the scope ring cut outs over the receiver and the rail is up front. So u can mount a scope far back using the Ruger rings. Keep the port open a bit more that way as well without a low rail needed running across since u have the cut outs for the rings front and back.
I'm surprised something like the Sig Cross 16" or Christensen MPR didn't come up in this conversation. I would consider both viable options as a modern day "scout rifle"
I really think any podcaster or social media influencer should be required to take an actual scout rifle class before they pontificate on the scout platform. Y'all displayed unbelievable ignorance on some aspects of the concept yet also displayed remarkable insight on others. An actual class at Gunsight or from Randy Cain or Tom Russell would clear up a lot your your misconceptions and might solidify some of your biases as well.
I will say that your Tikka build idea parallels what a lot of us in the scout rifle community are looking at these days. We usually don't call it a "scout" if it doesn't meet Cooper's criteria, but I get your meaning. The idea of a light, handy, "do it all" practical rifle has a lot of appeal and it is good to hear that industry insiders are looking at this too.
Scout rifle had a fairly precise definition and Cooper had specific requirements (with reasons for his scout rifle "recipe"). You probably should have started with those because you all spent a lot of time speculating about both. I just watched a video where Ron Spomer interviewed Richard Mann, and he pretty said that nothing today offered commercially as a "scout rifle" truly meets Cooper's definition or requirements. Most, like you all, have modified those requirements to suit their needs, wants, or available parts/accessories/rifles. It's not really a scout rifle if it deviates from Cooper's definition (just like a banana cream pie made with coconut is no longer a banana cream pie). Most commercial offerings are too heavy, for example. Cooper's recipe was a 6.6 lb. rifle (that includes a mounted scope under 3x and sling).
Mann had one built to Cooper's specs but admitted that the only way to really hit the requirements is to have a custom rifle made. @@nicks2581
Always good stuff from the guys at Vortex optics
Appreciate it! Thanks for listening!
A lomg time ago I read an article in which Cooper himself was heavily quoted. I really got the impression the reason for the forward-mounted scope had far more to do with access to the top of the receiver to load and clear stoppages than with periferal view. In those days detacheable magazines were scarce and the article also mentioned that the top of the receiver should be open like the older military rifles.
I had the Mossberg 110 Scout with a leupold 1-4 scout scope that i zeroed for 25-225. Off the bench I could get about .5 to .75 moa but was happy offhand for 2 moa. Was a great rifle except for the mags. Would definitely pick up the newer model ones.
Cooper though a military and lawman, often stated the specs for a scout rifle and claimed a man could happily wander the game fields of the world with such a weapon the rest of his days.
Remember Cooper's builds were based off of military surplus rifles that were sporteriesd so you needed stripper clips to reload fast. That's the reason for forward mounting the scope with the intention of making it a fast to shoot gun With fast reloads with stripper clips.
Cool topic! I was always interested in rifles of this type, especially with forward mounted optics. Still waiting on .35 Rem 10 Min. Talk, especially now that Remington has came out with the 360 BuckHammer...
Yes . Me too love my old 35 Remington. Very curious about the new 360. Wasn’t very impressed with the 350 legend.
@@buddy22801012 Good suggestion!
Thanks for the great topic suggestion and tuning in!
The forward mounted scope idea was so the rifle could be loaded one at a time or from a stripper clip, from the top without the scope interfering.
In Canada the AR is prohibited as an assault rifle as is an A1M1....we have an odd definition of assault rifle up here......but the scout rifle is basically your only option for compact light weight rifles and so it becomes your all purpose multi tool firearm
I have the same rifle in the Patrol version and have a 3-9x40 on it. Love it in the woods
I’ve had my stainless Ruger GSR since they came out. They come with Ruger rings in the box for mounting a scope in the traditional location over the action. I have several polymer magazines for it, 3 round flush, 5 round, and 10 round. It’s taken many hogs and rams. It’s my go to all around bolt gun. Aloha 🤙🏽
I have used two different scout scopes in the past; the Vortex 2-7x and the Leopold fixed 2.5x. I agree that a modern LPVO is a better option than a scout scope these days. One of the reasons Cooper wanted an intermediate eye relief scope was to allow the use of stripper clips for loading but I think the advantages of an LPVO and the use of detachable magazines would change his mind today.
You sir, are one of few who recall the stripper clip feature 👍. I'm fairly new to the LVPO and I like it. However, strippers give one options in more available amy carried or less weight with numerous magazines that can be lost or damaged.
I'd wager that Cooper would stay with this option in spite of the development of the LVPO. Maintaining ones peripheral awareness is golden, and, being a Marine and lion hunter, Cooper knew this. Just my take. I certainly need more time with the LVPO though. I love top loaders though and that's tough for me to give up.
@@thehorror...4505 There certainly isn't anything wrong with a bolt gun that uses stripper clips to load full power cartridges and mounts an intermediate eye relief scope of low power. But I am hard pressed to think of a situation where such a rifle would be ideal today.
@@gregdodd4729 - I didn't know the man personally, of course, but based on his work and statements it is hard to imagine that Cooper would disapprove of any set-up which allowed the user - the rifleman - to get the job done well and efficiently. If the scout scope worked well, then use that - but if a more traditional over-receiver set-up was best for the person in question then do it that way. In the end, you have to do it your way anyway, since you're the one using it.
And today, there are so many more choices of optics and mounting solutions, even compared to just 25 years ago - so who knows what he would think if he saw these options?
People forget that the long eye relief wasnt just about having a handy scope.
It was about ensuring that you could load a magazine with clips.
An LPVO means HAVING to take your ammunition in the heavier magazine format.
If a scout rifle is to switch to an lpvo, it has to also switch to magazine only. Due to the heavier and bulkier nature of magazines, that means reducing the weight of the rifle even more to fot the overall encumberance he planned on the system as a whole.
I put vortex scout scope on my mossberg mvp lc. Added a forward mounted rail for it. My hunting buddies look at me weird but it works like a friggin champ for hunting timber and field edges. And I don’t have to worry about getting punched in my eye socket, at least not by my scope.
The details regarding the Colonel's Scout Rifle concept are not a mystery. They were laid out in To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak the Truth, Fireworks, and The Art of the Rifle, all written by the Colonel. I spent countless hours in conversation with the Colonel while instructing with him at the NRA Whittington Center and Gunsite and now teach the Jeff Cooper General Rifle Class at Whittington. The advantages of the Scout Rifle become most apparent after a proper course of training and then use in the field.
Great episode. Didn't think I'd have true use for a scout rifle, then realised my 308 is a tikka 20" ctr with lpvo - not far off. And yes it has the orange furniture...
My scout rifle is The Fix in 308 16" barrel and a Vortex Razor Gen III 1-10. I really refer to it as my "do-all" utility rifle.
From my dusty memory banks, the original rifle was a milsurp which sporterized to some degree. The scope was forward mounted in order to clear the bolt/magazine. This allowed the shooter to use stripper clips while still having some sort of optic (which I think at the time was some sort of pistol scope).
I have a Winchester 670 carbine in 3006 with a 1-8x scope. As a modern scout rifle I'd say it's one of the handiest rifles for the woods I've ever used and it shoots like a dream
I think the scout rifle concept is cool (especially if you're somewhere semi-autos aren't legal), but there's definitely a difference between a "traditional" and "modern" scout rifle.
If we break down the characteristics of a traditional scout rifle, namely light weight, short overall length, and forward scope mount, only the first two are truly important today.
The forward scope wasn't just due to scope limitations but also to allow for (a) stripper clip usage and (b) so you can hold it by the action with one hand and run with it. Modern LVPO optics and detachable box magazines negate all of these points.
One of the best examples of a modern scout rifle (and modern use case) would be the Tikka T3x Arctic, which was recently adopted by the Canadian Rangers to replace the Lee Enfield because their usage conditions are simply too remote and extreme to reliably switch to a semi-auto.
I would say that the modern take on the scout rifle is actually the idea of the recce rifle, which is far less narrowly defined, as the idea of the recce rifle is more individual situation based.
Ryan you don’t have to build that Tikka as they already have. It’s the T3 Arctic and it mimics a Scout Rifle, check it out as it’s going to be my next purchase.
Those rifles are incredible looking.
The Canadian Arctic Rangers are issued a version of that rifle for their patrols in remote areas
I think the terrific trio kinda of miss the point Col Cooper was trying to make. His was a design was meant to give scout a tool to succeed and get back home through varied terrain and while surrounded by enemies, which include wind, sun, elevation and rain; critters; hunger; and bad guys. Ideally the scout's prime assets included (my rank order) 1) speed and mobility, 2) stealth, 3) packing an accurate and significant "punch", and 4) equipment that wouldn't fail before he did, and 5) backup ammo and sights that were light to haul . I think Col Cooper would still reject the semi-auto given the tradeoffs needed for all five points: typically heavier, typically noisier, typically less accurate, typically more parts and things to go wrong. Plus those double-tappers would need to carry twice the ammo ;-) I think the Colonel would be all-over A) side-mounted flush cups an backpack slings for hands-free movement, B) folding stocks for portability and concealment, C) suppressors to obscure direction of fire, D) synthetic stock or chassis materials that were warm to the touch and quiet, E) superlight quick deploy bipods. The trivial thing is to focus on the optics...my guess is that, as an innovator, Col Cooper would embrace the fantastic range of optics we have now and encourage individuals tune from a suite of sights that would likely include red dots and low magnification scopes. Similarly, I bet his working cartridge would be a 6.5 Creed as it does everything the 308 can do while taking better care of the shooter. If pressed, I think a Sig Sauer Cross Born & Raised (for the improved ergos) in 6.5 Creed with an 18" barrel, 5" Thunderbeast, Spartan bipod, back sling, and Vortex HX 2.5x- 10x would make the Colonel smile.
I seem to recall Cooper saying that he was open to the idea of semiautomatic Scouts, but none of the semiautomatic rifles of his time met his requirements for lightness and easy handling, and he wasn't an AR fan. But with the advent of lightweight AR-10ish pistols in .308, and considering that he accepted the Steyr Scout despite it not making his weight limit, there is an argument to be made that Cooper would accept lightweight ARs and other semiautomatics for Scout use.
I think possibly the reason Cooper didn't like the AR is because the AR is a " Scout rifle" out of the box. Maybe throw on a scope.
Best Wishes from Montana M.H
@Mike Hagan it had a lot to do with his disdain for the .223. At the time he was writing the Scout concept out, lightweight semiauto .308s or something similar hadn't come around. Even the AR-10s of the day were too heavy and Armalite wasn't exactly pumping them out. So the only good options were either a bolt action or a lever action on a diet.
@@mrflynn510 I believe you are correct.
Though to me the idea of trying to achieve lightweight, mobile scout rifle. For the Mission of Noncontact scouting duties using a .308 is ludicrous. If ease of mobility is the goal. And unlikely to get resupplied if accidental contact is made. Then volume of rounds carried would be the key. Not a cartridge with longer effective range or greater penetration like a heavy .308. A scout could carry half again as many rounds in a .556.
Witch is adequately powerful.
Thanks for the comment and Best Wishes from Montana M.H
@Mike Hagan the other reason Cooper wanted .308 is because he expected the Scout rifle and it's user to be able to take game when needed. So the rifle and round needed to be able to break contact with an enemy or take game depending on the user's needs. As good as 5.56 is, there's not much above deer that most would want to use it for.
@@mrflynn510 I think you hit on the part of the Concept that doesn't make logical sense to me. Hunting large game while performing military scouting. The military mission would come first above hunting large game. If the area of the Mission required possible defense against Grizzlies or polar bears I am with Cooper on that.
Or if part of that mission was to stay out in the field and sustain yourself off the land like " Castners Cutthroats " did in ww11.
A .30 caliber would make sense.
But even In Coopers time, there was the Garand, M14 and the FAL. Witch would be far better guns for defend and run tactics.
These firearms were/are available and reliable even in harsh conditions.
But as a scout do you really want the remnants of a large animal carcass for the enemy to know you are there?
Or if you pull back to sustain yourself you could simply shoot an animal multiple times for a large animal takedown with a smaller cartridge. And still have more ammo per weight carried for your main mission of scouting and possible defense.
Yes weight is always a factor. But Cooper's chosen weight for the rifle was arbitrary, though certainly a lighter firearm is a reasonable goal. And pushing the boundaries for such goals is a good thing.
But choosing a Bolt gun is Folly given better choices at Coopers time as well as now. Not for a military scouting mission as a solo or very small obseration unit. Only by a chance set of circumstance would you be able to keep fire superiority if located by your enemy.
I think Cooper said to justify the bolt gun. ( paraphrase) " That the scout is not seeking
To make contact with the enemy, only to observe. The rifle would only be used to defend and break contact." But it still has the limitations of a bolt gun in a gunfight. Probably with multiple attackers. And whether a scout is intended to make contact or not doesn't matter a bit. The enemy is Always the one that Forces one to defend himself.
I think the "Scout rifle concept" is another way of asking the very popular question, " if I could only have one rifle?" Well there is no one rifle that does it all well. Like shoes, vehicles or golf clubs. There is no perfect tool or piece of gear.
To me the " Scout rifle concept " is like the firearms World's version of a wreck on the highway. You just have to look as you drive by. Buts it's still a Bad thing to look at.
No disrespect to you or to Cooper. Its just my opinion. You made some valid points. And Cooper still has us talking today! Even long after he is gone. That's something!
I enjoy the debate. Lots of Fun.
Best Wishes to you and Cooper both from Montana. M.H
I saw that rifle and wanted to this same set up!! Like the IR deal on the rifle I’ve never seen one done this way. I think I’m sold.
I also didn't realize I set up my Sig Cross .308 as a modern Scout Rifle.
There are photos of Cooper holding a Spanish FR8 bolt action rifle, with a scope mounted. It misses the mark because it has an internal magazine instead of a detachable magazine. It's an interesting rifle that you should look into,
Would love to see a photo of that.
I had a Viper 1-6 on my Gunsite for a while. Great setup. I ended up putting a Leupold VXr Scout on it hoping to save a little weight. Can’t say it worked, although the VXII Scout I had on it originally was much lighter than the Viper. Lately I’ve been thinking about going all in with a 2.5-10.
Interestingly Jeff Cooper according to multiple sources listed a second cartridge that he considered not just acceptable, but perhaps even more ideal for the scout rifle concept: the 7mm-08.
I don't think he ever included it in any "official" spec sheet or requirement list, but he said in multiple interviews that the 7-08 was just as utilitarian and again *perhaps* better suited for the role.
See Richard Mann’s book for that discussion.