Hi, Tim! Your channel has become an addiction. If im being honest, it's so rare seeing this side of the industry in detail and all the stories, especially from someone as great as you. I was hoping in a future video to mayhe hear your thoughts about companions in games. What you think makes them work or not work and perhaps a few bits about what some of your favorite companions from your games are or your favorites from other games. Love the videos, cant wait for the next one. Keep being awesome!
RPGs is a very broad term. On one end you have Dark Souls and on the other is Planescape/Disco elysium. I like both and there is room for both games that focus on story and ones that focus on gameplay
I actually would like to know how to design or think of a story that reacts to player actions like killing important npcs, escaping from jail, completing quest objectives in a way that the quest-giver does not like...
all aspects of the medium should be there to enhance the literary elements that contribute to good storytelling if taht's not there, it's just shallow/vapid/hedonistic indulgence, a waste
@@evoltaocao5078 pretty sure you can't have "NO RULES" while defining something. That's a pretty constricting definition. I'd say games that make "game" the important part instead of story are the games worth playing. Some games have story as the main focus, like say, Starfield is pretty bad at it. You have open world space game, where you have to do main quest or you're gimped hard. I played skyrim without dragons, because I never went to defeat the 1st one. This time bethesda forgot to make a world that's interesting besides doing the main story. Vampires the masquerade is a pretty good story centric game, you can't really ignore the story there, but the game seems to react to your choices and you as a player character feel like an agent in the game world, you affect some systems and they affect you back, like you can't go killing without any reason, otherwise people will start hunting vampires, until there's no doubt that vampires exist, 1 underlying system that sucks you in the world. Red Faction Guerilla Remarstered did the genius thing about it, they removed mandatory story missions. You can just go and do the main "quest" without much input from writers making you do stuff. Games story really isn't that important, it's weird to even pretend to care for the larger mission, the game is fun because the gameplay is fun, and overall function of the story is just to set the stage. I bet chess had story at some point too, but I don't think people cared that much about it. Is chess art? Is football art? Feels kinda silly to ask, but they're definitely games, obviously very creative games, you'd have to be a Picasso to shoot a goal. But jokes aside, if football was set up as some sort of race war, I bet it would have it's crowd...
@@evoltaocao5078no, art is not about creativity art is about expression of the human experience to relate to others through time and space, in a meaningful way, and helps bring understanding to the human condition, life, existence otherwise it's shallow hedonistic entertainment, just because something is pretty or sounds nice doesn't make it art, it simply makes it creative on a medium art is deeper
Hi Tim I watched all your game design playlist videos at work shuffling bananas, I really appreciate your point of view and opened my mind on more than a handful of topics. A lot of stuff you went over have been conversations I've had with friends over the years so It was kind of interesting to see someone else talk about things I've never had terminology for. Thanks for the videos hope you have a great year.
Hi Tim, I asked the question you answered in this video, and let me just say thanks for the insight and the great videos! I think when I first typed the original question I had written "game mechanics vs. story", but I guess I edited it right afterwards - thought it might have been easier to understand what I meant, and in that I failed terribly. On another note, I agree with you it was a trick question because I believe there are no right answers. Like you said some games might rely on one more than the other, but fundamentally it is also a matter of what appeals to people individually. Your example of Doom and games from the 80s/90s vs games like Heavy Rain was exactly what I have in mind when I think about this topic. In my mind all this discussion can be taken to what games really are, relating to your view on them being toys but also as potential story-telling devices.
I had assumed you asked the question relative to RPGs which Tim mostly made, and is a genre where it's a tougher question to ask the importance of story vs game mechanics (or really anything that makes it uniquely part of the game medium)
While I understand Tim's experience leans toward RPGs, I was interested in his opinion as an experienced game designer foremost. I'd still be very interested in hearing what he has to say about sports games just because he may have perspectives that we'd fail to perceive
As for walking simulators, I loved Everybody's gone to the Rapture for its atmosphere and immersion. It has the most minimal game mechanics ever, even for a game of that kind, but I didn't mind.
Thank you for the video! Interesting question. My parsing of it is 'story/plot vs game play/mechanics". Under that parsing my preference lies with the mechanics when it comes to the game medium. As I see it there are other mediums (books, music and film) for telling the story you want the way you want to. Games are unique in their offering of interactive elements and participation in the crafting of the story. Or as Tim has said in his reboot talk "Games are not movies" ;). And to do so, to help the player tell their (version of the) story, you need mechanics/gameplay elements (and yes i started playing games in the early nineties when stories were thin :D). Anyhow, as phrased the question is indeed ambiguous... and fun:) Thank you for taking the time and for your insights! 😊 ps: feel better soon!
It seems to me that in most games the gameplay is the most important, while everything else (story, graphics, etc) exist to contextualise it. Which is very important (what the player will talk about is playing a SPACE shooter, for example), but the main reason they'll choose to play it is the gameplay. There are however games, where the story is the most important, and the gameplay exists to contextualise it. Games like yours are a great example, as ultimately they're stories about, say, a vault dweller, but ultimately what that means depends on the gameplay mechanics reached and used by the player.
Pseudoregalia for a game that does 3D platform game mechanics in a flawless way, while having retro 3D graphics and does the story telling by letting you play the game. One of the best indie games I've seen in a while. Beautiful game design IMO.
It has even less story than his Doom example certainly. The platforming is good in that game but the (mapless) exploration and Metroidvania elements were not done well
JE Sawyer's Pentiment is a game that has both brilliant game design and story, but very simple game mechanics. I would say that simple game mechanics can still be very interesting from a design perspective.
I saw a clip from somewhere where the game has to be fun before its beautiful; so i think a game should be fun regardless of the story, but should aim for a good story regardless.
Hi, Tim! Thank you for all your videos. I have a question. After watching your video about Player Agency I started wondering how do you keep all the little things in mind and test various stuff if there are tens or even hundreds of nuances. For example there might be a dialogue in the game and at certain point to keep game reactive NPC might recall certain thing player might or might not have done. This also multiplies by player stats, etc. etc. I found myself most troubled when trying to test all the paths player can follow and that each of them would actually work. How do you handle it? Thank you!
I guess it would be best to see why the NPC needs to recall actions the player has committed. If there is no narrative or gameplay reason I don't see why the NPC needs to know at all, so it would be one less thing to test.
Hi Tim! Could you make a video about the role of game producer? I've been feeling that auteurism in games is deeply associated to this figure, differently from movies (which is another art I love) where the auteurism is more commonly linked to the director or writer.
I usually judge a game on three categories: Presentation (graphics, music, UI etc.) Story (though not all games have stories, like racing games for example) and Gameplay (game mechanics) If at least two of the three are good, then the game is usually enjoyable.
Ive just played Slay the Princess. There's no game mechanics other than pick different speech or actions. Every different set of choices not only affects what happens but when you die you start at the beginning and it affects that time round. All there is is player agency. You feel like you are repeating things but the outcomes keep changing based on choice. I love games with in depth systems and interactive, reactive worlds but the game really sucked me in with its seemingly simple mechanics but absolute focus on the minutiae of your choice.
I have a story in my mind that I want to tell. I thought about writing a book, tell the story with art, etc. Even a video game would be fine, I couldn't care less if it was a (bad) 2D/3D RPG, P&C, Adventure, ... as long as the story is delivered. Maybe that is something "Story vs Game Design"?
What medium would fit the story best, and how do you want the story presented? Would presenting the story in game/book/comic/whatever format make it better in any way? Also, if it is your goal, what medium would have the most mass appeal? Both in general and for your target audience. Hell, make a prototype! Do a small storybook, as simple as possible, and have people read it and ask what they think! Maybe their reactions can help you decide!
Chess is purest form of game from raw logic point of view. Purest and the BEST. Very easy to understand how the pieces move and what the objective is but of course impossible solve. 8 year old could play it.
An interesting variation on this question would be if story/ theme/ artistic intent demands including segments or systems that are frustrating or simply not fun what do you do? Silent hill 2 is a good example - it has terrible combat because you are not supposed to be good at fighting, but then maybe developers shouldn't have bothered to include the combat t in the first place? Deliberately adding bad systems into a game should make it a worse experience overall, right? Maybe it's not that simple. There are games that are deliberately frustrating or unfun in in almost their entirety - the most popular is probably Getting over it but it's relatively small and simple game. On the other hand Pathologic or Lobotomy Corporation can be just as, if not more, frustrating as GOI and absolutely dwarf it in the amount of content and mechanical complexity but didn't get as much attention (both still considered cult classics). All 3 share one curtail similarity - they are made by small teams, because big businesses will never make such risky products.
Hello Tim, I have a question for you. Outside of rare gems like Fallout and Soldier of Fortune, why haven't damage mechanics evolved over the last 30 years? Graphics, storytelling, world building and everything in between have blossomed from 8-bits into the beautiful, complex games we have today, but for the most part, swords still can't cut; they just act like sticks, bludgeoning away hp until the bad guy falls down. Why?
Outside of a few gimmicks, swords don't really need to be anything more than sticks in a lot of games' design. It's practical and familiar to most players.
Tetris. It has an amazing story, and the best character development in all games. The gameplay and other parts of game design are repetitive, even boring, but the story and characters are what brings me back to it all the time. 13 Sentinels. It's the opposite. No story at all. Some kids and robots amd time travel, but the gameplay is amazing: you selecet between dialogue options and walk to find other people amd talk to them amd selecet between dialogue options. So engaging! Trolling aside, Setting: there's a town, people live here and there are good trades and business. Situation: suddenly, thieves stole a jewel from a merchant. Story: the atory is how the situation is solved, do the hero kill the thief and being back the jewel, does he take ot for himself, does he amd the thief become friends and bring doom to the bourgeoisie?
"...It depends...." -- YES!!! So many times over, yes, yes, yes! So glad someone with some industry standing and recognition said it. I'm so tired of people acting like games, categorically, are all about story, when chess, poker, basketball, pinball, Pac-Man, Tetris, SimCity, and Minecraft all have no story and are still valid games many consider great -- and conversely of being misconstrued as saying story in games is somehow inherently bad, when clearly some kinds of games need it and games can be great ways to tell stories if that is what you want. 10k likes!
@CainOnGames Do you think CRPG's and games in general will evolve to the point where NPC's will have a similar agency and decision making to players, where they will complete quests, form relationships and have their own goals? A few games that have this are the Stalker series and Space Rangers HD: A War Apart.
I think maybe he meant gameplay Vs story. I'm that case, my opinion is gameplay over story. But I'm not really a game designer so maybe my analysis is naive.
Solid Gameplay > Story //the better gameplay the shittier (or just less) story you can get away with in most scenarios. It's especially gnarly when you have a pretty solid game and still force the player to endure a sub par story with unskippable dialogue and/or cutscenes. Personally I prefer when lore is an optional treat instead of it being forced upon you by some NPC reading an essay disguised as dialogue
When considering games like Fallout, I think the game mechanics should have a higher priority than the story. For nearly all games, the story is told through the game mechanics. It's easier to forgive a bad story in a fun game than it is to forgive a boring game with a great story. At least from my perspective.
There is certainly an inherent tradeoff between game mechanics and story. As soon as you've decided that the game is going to be mostly about killing enemies, and eventually killing a final boss, the story is already highly constrained. The story becomes essentially an excuse for the existence of all these enemies and a justification for killing them. Plus, the story needs to revolve around this final boss, so this evil boss is going to be entirely in control of the story. If that's the only kind of game you've ever played, then you can't see that other kind of stories and settings suddenly become possible if the game has little or no battle.
I find it amazing how successful storytelling can be when it's barely done at all. FromSoft games have an incredible ability to tell just enough story to give you a feeling that there's a lot more to it, while also giving you everything you need to piece things together even if none of it is explicitly made clear in any way.
I have been on multiple counter-strike mapping teams, snd we actually do put a lot of story into the maps. It's just all environmental storytelling that you have to figure out based on what you see.
if a game doesn't have a good story that is TOLD WELL, I'm usually not interested storytelling is where the artistic value comes through with depth, if the story itself has good meaning everything else should be there to enhance the story, which can mean immersing the player more into the world via whatever part of the'game' (combat, for instance, is the part of the story where you 'had to fight a nest giant scorpion in a cave, harvest their tail venom, and return to shady sands with an antidote and having helped the town" as a medium, it can have effective story-telling in many many capacities, through setting and atomsphere, immersion of varying sorts, but, if it is just there for shallow hedonistic experience, then the value is not good
Hello Mr. Tim Cain first of all i hope you get well soon :) i think you are sick or something ? flu maybe ? , let me say this before it's my personal opinion :) I think what makes Fallout 1 soo S.P.E.C.I.A.L it's story , but not of course can't deny on it's amazing game designs . I think in your games , because it's mostly related on story based games , your stories or the projects you involved in have +1 better stories than game designs and i really would love to see the games like only it's fun to play with also would like get excited what the game is telling you about and the games you involved in are doing those things great :) . And i would like to ask something that , did also asked in your previous video which is about rumours is spreading around social media that the price tags of new upcoming AAA games or high budget games is going to be increased ? like usual 60 dollars , the game companies thinking about pricing their games 100 dollars or more ? what you thinking about that ? does the game industry having bad times financially or is this something other than that ?
I think the best way to put it is that all of these aspects are important and lean on/support each other, BUT gameplay and your primary gameplay loop should be the focus in like 90%+ of games.
I'm trying to develop a AAA game by my self, and i entered the gamedev world a couple yaers ago, i've been trying Unreal Engine, and other motors, and writing the Game Design Document. But there is a cuestion that keeps bugging my mind, I want to know what is posible to do and what isn´t, I need to try and maque a game mecánic to see if it is posible? or someone with expierence like you could tell me if it is posible? For example, i thought a solution to Red Dead Redemption II online, instead of creating your own character you would have to choose one with a unique story, in every server it would be 20 players (for example) and each one would be a diferent character with diferent sotryes but in the same world. Each player could do main story quests that develope his character, secondary quests or play alogn with other players their main quests. ¿Something like this would be posible to make?
Anything is possible, but doing it by yourself would take impossibly longer than if you were with a team. Especially something AAA, for which even companies take years to create.
Outer Worlds has interesting, diverse design pillars, but they may hurt the story, cause you need to simplify it. Most companion quests, some main missions, the ending are unfinished 'cause premise for most of them is better than the conclusion/it lacks options/doesn't make sense. The church guy companion quest is laughable - you search for the answers in the book, but he just smokes pot - the end. That's not a story worth telling and it's all around Outer Worlds
In Rockstar games for example there is not much player agency in missions and story, but in it's open world aspect and what the player can do and interact with the freedom is bigger than in a lot of RPGs, so sometimes there is that kind of tradeoff too.
I personally think even an RPG doesnt need much story, its enough to have good world building and one main quest you try to achieve, every action you take within the world that brings you closer to achieving your goal, like beating the big bad, is part of your personal story that gets written by your actions. I dont need a "story" excuse to go into a dungeon where i find a more powerful sword to beat the big bad, when there is an intrinsic motivation to do so.
that's called an ego fantasy and is shallow and hedonistic and does not bring value to/enhance life with depth of meaning narcissism is not a thing to seek validation for
Many stories that involve a cataclysmic event. Those do need to integrate pressure for players to quickly stop that cause. Many RPGs do not have timers, nor losses for completing tasks that are unnecessary. This is true for all the Final Fantasy titles, which is the potential for doomsday. Hence the name of that game. The layout of objectives, and game mechanics are much different to RPGs typical in that genera. Yet, this story is heavily used in conjunction with many RPGs. If a player feels rushed into meeting an objective. Shall they seek to play again in finding other solutions to reach that objectively differently? I am believing that has not been what developers aim to permit for player agency. That story of heroes stopping utter destruction is popular. A design that removes options from players is unpopular. Story Versus Game Design
Drakengard 3 en the Nier games are not the best games but very special to me because of the story and the music, in my eyes they are inspired by theology i was raised christian turned out be more "gnostic" eastern thinking jean-paul sartre kabbalah kybalion Quetzalcoatl, i started believing in the commandment of Eden the idea of good and evil is polarizing poeple justifying escalation . Nietzsche: whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster” and “if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. Keiichi Okabe Emi Evans, Those Games are catharsis to me. like no others very special.
In addition to the request to "do story vs. player agency" by @nathandanner4030, kindly consider also doing "story vs. game design"...specifically in a RPG, which I gather was actually the original question. We all know no one is arguing that all video games of all kinds, unto Doom and COD, should have an interesting and nuanced story to tell, but if it's a RPG or the developer/publisher dares to call it a RPG when it obviously isn't, it is absolutely pointless to produce it if and when the story of the game is meaningless, blathering nonsense "designed" to support game mechanics as opposed to the other way around. In such a game, there's nothing in the game itself for the player to play off of with a character created from the whole cloth of their own imagination and nothing for the player to do aside, perhaps, from *play around* with its mechanics, e.g. supposed "builds", because no soul or human spirit has been infused into the game and it most probably exists solely for the purpose of financial gain. (Well, that and -- lately -- perhaps go out their way to discover any soul that might be in the game regardless the tripe shoveled over the top of it.) Pardon my bluntness, but you've skated around this subject to the point that I'm beginning to question whether you're actually an experienced designer worth listening to or just another industry apologist because I'm honestly leaning heavily toward industry apologist, atm.
@@CainOnGames Can you explain how Vampires the masquerade got made, I recently tried to understand who was behind the game feeling so captivating, but I couldn't find the credits for "writer" or "narrative designer", seems like the game was hugely loved because it just did the story telling really well. Looked like the people behind that project kinda went into less good games mostly. Like the vampires really felt like a gem even with it's rough edges. Yeah, it really stands as a great example of what modern aaa games do wrong. Small world, limited choices, but somehow end up feeling alive and worth experiencing again differently. It can't be that the setting was only thing that made it good, because the previous game requiem didn't have such a good story. Pillars of eternity also had good writing and world building, at least that's what I remember about it, kinda made me quit the game after starting out with all monk team. Monks were fun, but they were generic compared to real characters.
Might it be fruitful for Tim's channel to host a narrative designer or whomever it may be who specializes in "balancing" story, characterization and RPG mechanical elements and design? You know, someone who might speak more or less authoritatively on the subject. Most RPGs feel excessively top-heavy in that regard, i.e. mechanics trump story or, even, mechanics to the near- or utter exclusion of engaging story and characterization and dialogue. I would think the game director would be responsible for insuring that balance over the course of development, but don't work in the industry, so I've no idea the title of the person or persons ultimately responsible for establishing and maintaining that balance or "tone". I played a game recently that had been nearly universally panned for one perfectly legitimate reason or another, but nonetheless found within it the signatures of (what I think) were individual developers who weren't just mindlessly performing their tasks as instructed and put something of themselves or the original spirit of the "franchise" into the game that was of undeniable quality regardless the overall lack of quality and careful consideration to be found otherwise. It possessed environmental clues, if you will, as to what had transpired in the game world prior to the player entering the game world, but dropped the ball at that point and tried to lead the player around by the nose to do whatever the development company and/or publisher and/or both fully intended for them to do whether they wanted to and/or enjoyed it or not. It was a game I had no intention of touching with a 10-foot pole when I first learned of its development because I knew exactly what it was. Various circumstances led to my playing it anyway, so I determined to discover for myself whether it was really as "bad" as most everyone was saying; whether the developers actually did create problems they then attempted to sell the solutions for (they did); or if it possessed any redeeming qualities whatsoever. It did possess redeeming qualities, surprisingly enough, but those qualities were so overshadowed by manipulative and predatory industry practices, I couldn't in good conscience recommend it to anyone else. How unfortunate that we're never called upon to do anything other than "like" or "dislike" or "recommend" or not "recommend" a game based on criteria we haven't established ourselves and/or are labelled "haters" if we dare criticize anything whatsoever about a game. If there's ever to be any improvement of the medium itself, especially, I should think those most invested in it would be among the first to accommodate earnest, sincere and heartfelt criticism of their work as opposed to being defensive to the point of utter childishness.
@bezceljudzelzceljsh5799 I’d recommend watching my Vampire Bloodlines playlist: Vampire Bloodlines th-cam.com/play/PLI8W_yHW-3DWP4pWJrsE8wsGWMaEQkpH2.html That’s most of my experiences on the project.
@@lrinfi " i.e. mechanics trump story or, even, mechanics to the near- or utter exclusion of engaging story and characterization and dialogue." Like what games do you think have a good story, and what specific games have the mechanics trump story problem? Bladerunner game is pretty good story focused game, you might like it if you prefer story. VtM is more of a story game, combat isn't too bad if you use unofficial patch(hollywood sewer skip) I know some games that use gameplay as supplement for story, but you seem to imply that there are games that do the opposite and suffer from it.
Hi, Tim! Your channel has become an addiction. If im being honest, it's so rare seeing this side of the industry in detail and all the stories, especially from someone as great as you. I was hoping in a future video to mayhe hear your thoughts about companions in games. What you think makes them work or not work and perhaps a few bits about what some of your favorite companions from your games are or your favorites from other games. Love the videos, cant wait for the next one. Keep being awesome!
RPGs is a very broad term. On one end you have Dark Souls and on the other is Planescape/Disco elysium.
I like both and there is room for both games that focus on story and ones that focus on gameplay
Ok, now do Story vs Player Agency...how much should a writer's story trump a player's agency or the illusion of player agency...
I actually would like to know how to design or think of a story that reacts to player actions like killing important npcs, escaping from jail, completing quest objectives in a way that the quest-giver does not like...
there are NO RULES for anything. shit is relative. art is extremely rare and is about creativity.
all aspects of the medium should be there to enhance the literary elements that contribute to good storytelling
if taht's not there, it's just shallow/vapid/hedonistic indulgence, a waste
@@evoltaocao5078 pretty sure you can't have "NO RULES" while defining something. That's a pretty constricting definition.
I'd say games that make "game" the important part instead of story are the games worth playing. Some games have story as the main focus, like say, Starfield is pretty bad at it. You have open world space game, where you have to do main quest or you're gimped hard. I played skyrim without dragons, because I never went to defeat the 1st one. This time bethesda forgot to make a world that's interesting besides doing the main story.
Vampires the masquerade is a pretty good story centric game, you can't really ignore the story there, but the game seems to react to your choices and you as a player character feel like an agent in the game world, you affect some systems and they affect you back, like you can't go killing without any reason, otherwise people will start hunting vampires, until there's no doubt that vampires exist, 1 underlying system that sucks you in the world.
Red Faction Guerilla Remarstered did the genius thing about it, they removed mandatory story missions. You can just go and do the main "quest" without much input from writers making you do stuff. Games story really isn't that important, it's weird to even pretend to care for the larger mission, the game is fun because the gameplay is fun, and overall function of the story is just to set the stage.
I bet chess had story at some point too, but I don't think people cared that much about it. Is chess art? Is football art? Feels kinda silly to ask, but they're definitely games, obviously very creative games, you'd have to be a Picasso to shoot a goal. But jokes aside, if football was set up as some sort of race war, I bet it would have it's crowd...
@@evoltaocao5078no, art is not about creativity
art is about expression of the human experience to relate to others through time and space, in a meaningful way, and helps bring understanding to the human condition, life, existence
otherwise it's shallow hedonistic entertainment, just because something is pretty or sounds nice doesn't make it art, it simply makes it creative on a medium
art is deeper
Hi Tim I watched all your game design playlist videos at work shuffling bananas, I really appreciate your point of view and opened my mind on more than a handful of topics.
A lot of stuff you went over have been conversations I've had with friends over the years so It was kind of interesting to see someone else talk about things I've never had terminology for.
Thanks for the videos hope you have a great year.
Hi Tim, I asked the question you answered in this video, and let me just say thanks for the insight and the great videos!
I think when I first typed the original question I had written "game mechanics vs. story", but I guess I edited it right afterwards - thought it might have been easier to understand what I meant, and in that I failed terribly.
On another note, I agree with you it was a trick question because I believe there are no right answers. Like you said some games might rely on one more than the other, but fundamentally it is also a matter of what appeals to people individually.
Your example of Doom and games from the 80s/90s vs games like Heavy Rain was exactly what I have in mind when I think about this topic. In my mind all this discussion can be taken to what games really are, relating to your view on them being toys but also as potential story-telling devices.
I had assumed you asked the question relative to RPGs which Tim mostly made, and is a genre where it's a tougher question to ask the importance of story vs game mechanics (or really anything that makes it uniquely part of the game medium)
While I understand Tim's experience leans toward RPGs, I was interested in his opinion as an experienced game designer foremost. I'd still be very interested in hearing what he has to say about sports games just because he may have perspectives that we'd fail to perceive
This video's title made me recall the term "ludonarrative dissonance".
As for walking simulators, I loved Everybody's gone to the Rapture for its atmosphere and immersion. It has the most minimal game mechanics ever, even for a game of that kind, but I didn't mind.
Thank you for the video!
Interesting question. My parsing of it is 'story/plot vs game play/mechanics". Under that parsing my preference lies with the mechanics when it comes to the game medium. As I see it there are other mediums (books, music and film) for telling the story you want the way you want to. Games are unique in their offering of interactive elements and participation in the crafting of the story. Or as Tim has said in his reboot talk "Games are not movies" ;). And to do so, to help the player tell their (version of the) story, you need mechanics/gameplay elements (and yes i started playing games in the early nineties when stories were thin :D).
Anyhow, as phrased the question is indeed ambiguous... and fun:)
Thank you for taking the time and for your insights! 😊
ps: feel better soon!
It seems to me that in most games the gameplay is the most important, while everything else (story, graphics, etc) exist to contextualise it. Which is very important (what the player will talk about is playing a SPACE shooter, for example), but the main reason they'll choose to play it is the gameplay. There are however games, where the story is the most important, and the gameplay exists to contextualise it. Games like yours are a great example, as ultimately they're stories about, say, a vault dweller, but ultimately what that means depends on the gameplay mechanics reached and used by the player.
Doesn’t so much sound like a nonquestion, the answer is just “it depends”
"The question itself contains its own unasking...."
Pseudoregalia for a game that does 3D platform game mechanics in a flawless way, while having retro 3D graphics and does the story telling by letting you play the game. One of the best indie games I've seen in a while. Beautiful game design IMO.
It has even less story than his Doom example certainly. The platforming is good in that game but the (mapless) exploration and Metroidvania elements were not done well
I enjoyed it thorough and the game itself tells a (simple) story that I like. Obviously it's not an RPG@@Zeldarulah
Gameplay is more important. It doesn't matter how good your story is, if the game is a chore to play no one will see your story.
phoenix wright vs breath of the wild
one is 90% story 10% game mechanics
one is 10% story 90% game mechanics
both excellent
There can be a good game without any story.
There can not be any game without a game design.
JE Sawyer's Pentiment is a game that has both brilliant game design and story, but very simple game mechanics. I would say that simple game mechanics can still be very interesting from a design perspective.
I found it boring, needs combat. Same with Disco Elysium.
I saw a clip from somewhere where the game has to be fun before its beautiful; so i think a game should be fun regardless of the story, but should aim for a good story regardless.
What's more important for a painting, the subject and emotion or the colors and technique? Great vid.
Hi, Tim! Thank you for all your videos. I have a question. After watching your video about Player Agency I started wondering how do you keep all the little things in mind and test various stuff if there are tens or even hundreds of nuances. For example there might be a dialogue in the game and at certain point to keep game reactive NPC might recall certain thing player might or might not have done. This also multiplies by player stats, etc. etc. I found myself most troubled when trying to test all the paths player can follow and that each of them would actually work. How do you handle it? Thank you!
I guess it would be best to see why the NPC needs to recall actions the player has committed. If there is no narrative or gameplay reason I don't see why the NPC needs to know at all, so it would be one less thing to test.
A flow chart of possible outcomes.
Doom's story: Vengeance for Daisy
Hi Tim! Could you make a video about the role of game producer? I've been feeling that auteurism in games is deeply associated to this figure, differently from movies (which is another art I love) where the auteurism is more commonly linked to the director or writer.
Ha! I read “Sony vs Game Design”. For a second there I thought Tim started to click bait like a pro TH-camr.
I usually judge a game on three categories: Presentation (graphics, music, UI etc.) Story (though not all games have stories, like racing games for example) and Gameplay (game mechanics)
If at least two of the three are good, then the game is usually enjoyable.
Ive just played Slay the Princess. There's no game mechanics other than pick different speech or actions. Every different set of choices not only affects what happens but when you die you start at the beginning and it affects that time round. All there is is player agency. You feel like you are repeating things but the outcomes keep changing based on choice. I love games with in depth systems and interactive, reactive worlds but the game really sucked me in with its seemingly simple mechanics but absolute focus on the minutiae of your choice.
I have a story in my mind that I want to tell. I thought about writing a book, tell the story with art, etc. Even a video game would be fine, I couldn't care less if it was a (bad) 2D/3D RPG, P&C, Adventure, ... as long as the story is delivered. Maybe that is something "Story vs Game Design"?
What medium would fit the story best, and how do you want the story presented? Would presenting the story in game/book/comic/whatever format make it better in any way? Also, if it is your goal, what medium would have the most mass appeal? Both in general and for your target audience.
Hell, make a prototype! Do a small storybook, as simple as possible, and have people read it and ask what they think! Maybe their reactions can help you decide!
Chess is purest form of game from raw logic point of view. Purest and the BEST. Very easy to understand how the pieces move and what the objective is but of course impossible solve. 8 year old could play it.
An interesting variation on this question would be if story/ theme/ artistic intent demands including segments or systems that are frustrating or simply not fun what do you do?
Silent hill 2 is a good example - it has terrible combat because you are not supposed to be good at fighting, but then maybe developers shouldn't have bothered to include the combat t in the first place? Deliberately adding bad systems into a game should make it a worse experience overall, right? Maybe it's not that simple.
There are games that are deliberately frustrating or unfun in in almost their entirety - the most popular is probably Getting over it but it's relatively small and simple game. On the other hand Pathologic or Lobotomy Corporation can be just as, if not more, frustrating as GOI and absolutely dwarf it in the amount of content and mechanical complexity but didn't get as much attention (both still considered cult classics). All 3 share one curtail similarity - they are made by small teams, because big businesses will never make such risky products.
Hello Tim, I have a question for you. Outside of rare gems like Fallout and Soldier of Fortune, why haven't damage mechanics evolved over the last 30 years? Graphics, storytelling, world building and everything in between have blossomed from 8-bits into the beautiful, complex games we have today, but for the most part, swords still can't cut; they just act like sticks, bludgeoning away hp until the bad guy falls down. Why?
Outside of a few gimmicks, swords don't really need to be anything more than sticks in a lot of games' design. It's practical and familiar to most players.
@@justinhaddock2053 So were pixel art and "save the princess" storylines yet they continued to evolve. What's the difference?
Tetris. It has an amazing story, and the best character development in all games. The gameplay and other parts of game design are repetitive, even boring, but the story and characters are what brings me back to it all the time.
13 Sentinels. It's the opposite. No story at all. Some kids and robots amd time travel, but the gameplay is amazing: you selecet between dialogue options and walk to find other people amd talk to them amd selecet between dialogue options. So engaging!
Trolling aside,
Setting: there's a town, people live here and there are good trades and business.
Situation: suddenly, thieves stole a jewel from a merchant.
Story: the atory is how the situation is solved, do the hero kill the thief and being back the jewel, does he take ot for himself, does he amd the thief become friends and bring doom to the bourgeoisie?
"...It depends...." -- YES!!! So many times over, yes, yes, yes! So glad someone with some industry standing and recognition said it. I'm so tired of people acting like games, categorically, are all about story, when chess, poker, basketball, pinball, Pac-Man, Tetris, SimCity, and Minecraft all have no story and are still valid games many consider great -- and conversely of being misconstrued as saying story in games is somehow inherently bad, when clearly some kinds of games need it and games can be great ways to tell stories if that is what you want. 10k likes!
@CainOnGames Do you think CRPG's and games in general will evolve to the point where NPC's will have a similar agency and decision making to players, where they will complete quests, form relationships and have their own goals? A few games that have this are the Stalker series and Space Rangers HD: A War Apart.
I think maybe he meant gameplay Vs story. I'm that case, my opinion is gameplay over story.
But I'm not really a game designer so maybe my analysis is naive.
Solid Gameplay > Story
//the better gameplay the shittier (or just less) story you can get away with in most scenarios. It's especially gnarly when you have a pretty solid game and still force the player to endure a sub par story with unskippable dialogue and/or cutscenes. Personally I prefer when lore is an optional treat instead of it being forced upon you by some NPC reading an essay disguised as dialogue
When considering games like Fallout, I think the game mechanics should have a higher priority than the story. For nearly all games, the story is told through the game mechanics. It's easier to forgive a bad story in a fun game than it is to forgive a boring game with a great story. At least from my perspective.
You know, I can help with those
There is certainly an inherent tradeoff between game mechanics and story. As soon as you've decided that the game is going to be mostly about killing enemies, and eventually killing a final boss, the story is already highly constrained. The story becomes essentially an excuse for the existence of all these enemies and a justification for killing them. Plus, the story needs to revolve around this final boss, so this evil boss is going to be entirely in control of the story. If that's the only kind of game you've ever played, then you can't see that other kind of stories and settings suddenly become possible if the game has little or no battle.
Drakengard: both and neither
Hi Everyone Its me Tim
I find it amazing how successful storytelling can be when it's barely done at all. FromSoft games have an incredible ability to tell just enough story to give you a feeling that there's a lot more to it, while also giving you everything you need to piece things together even if none of it is explicitly made clear in any way.
I have been on multiple counter-strike mapping teams, snd we actually do put a lot of story into the maps. It's just all environmental storytelling that you have to figure out based on what you see.
Well Tim, DOES a dog have a Buddha nature?
if a game doesn't have a good story that is TOLD WELL, I'm usually not interested
storytelling is where the artistic value comes through with depth, if the story itself has good meaning
everything else should be there to enhance the story, which can mean immersing the player more into the world via whatever part of the'game' (combat, for instance, is the part of the story where you 'had to fight a nest giant scorpion in a cave, harvest their tail venom, and return to shady sands with an antidote and having helped the town"
as a medium, it can have effective story-telling in many many capacities, through setting and atomsphere, immersion of varying sorts, but, if it is just there for shallow hedonistic experience, then the value is not good
Hello Mr. Tim Cain first of all i hope you get well soon :) i think you are sick or something ? flu maybe ? , let me say this before it's my personal opinion :) I think what makes Fallout 1 soo S.P.E.C.I.A.L it's story , but not of course can't deny on it's amazing game designs . I think in your games , because it's mostly related on story based games , your stories or the projects you involved in have +1 better stories than game designs and i really would love to see the games like only it's fun to play with also would like get excited what the game is telling you about and the games you involved in are doing those things great :) .
And i would like to ask something that , did also asked in your previous video which is about rumours is spreading around social media that the price tags of new upcoming AAA games or high budget games is going to be increased ? like usual 60 dollars , the game companies thinking about pricing their games 100 dollars or more ? what you thinking about that ? does the game industry having bad times financially or is this something other than that ?
oh fuhk off with your nonsense
more likely just from pizza from the night before, dairy causing phlegm buildup
ffs
I think the best way to put it is that all of these aspects are important and lean on/support each other, BUT gameplay and your primary gameplay loop should be the focus in like 90%+ of games.
I'm trying to develop a AAA game by my self, and i entered the gamedev world a couple yaers ago, i've been trying Unreal Engine, and other motors, and writing the Game Design Document.
But there is a cuestion that keeps bugging my mind, I want to know what is posible to do and what isn´t, I need to try and maque a game mecánic to see if it is posible? or someone with expierence like you could tell me if it is posible?
For example, i thought a solution to Red Dead Redemption II online, instead of creating your own character you would have to choose one with a unique story, in every server it would be 20 players (for example) and each one would be a diferent character with diferent sotryes but in the same world. Each player could do main story quests that develope his character, secondary quests or play alogn with other players their main quests. ¿Something like this would be posible to make?
Anything is possible, but doing it by yourself would take impossibly longer than if you were with a team. Especially something AAA, for which even companies take years to create.
Outer Worlds has interesting, diverse design pillars, but they may hurt the story, cause you need to simplify it. Most companion quests, some main missions, the ending are unfinished 'cause premise for most of them is better than the conclusion/it lacks options/doesn't make sense. The church guy companion quest is laughable - you search for the answers in the book, but he just smokes pot - the end. That's not a story worth telling and it's all around Outer Worlds
I feel like u simplified max’s character development and arc a ton to make it fit ur point
But what is good graphics?
Simple well made pixel-art is vastly enough in most case, imo.
In Rockstar games for example there is not much player agency in missions and story, but in it's open world aspect and what the player can do and interact with the freedom is bigger than in a lot of RPGs, so sometimes there is that kind of tradeoff too.
games should be entirely story and if the player presses a key or moves mouse their computer should immediately shut down
I personally think even an RPG doesnt need much story, its enough to have good world building and one main quest you try to achieve, every action you take within the world that brings you closer to achieving your goal, like beating the big bad, is part of your personal story that gets written by your actions. I dont need a "story" excuse to go into a dungeon where i find a more powerful sword to beat the big bad, when there is an intrinsic motivation to do so.
that's called an ego fantasy and is shallow and hedonistic and does not bring value to/enhance life with depth of meaning
narcissism is not a thing to seek validation for
I find this perspective interesting, yet I don't think I can relate.
For me it's gameplay over story, all day every day. I care way more about whether it's fun than whether the story is good.
Many stories that involve a cataclysmic event. Those do need to integrate pressure for players to quickly stop that cause. Many RPGs do not have timers, nor losses for completing tasks that are unnecessary. This is true for all the Final Fantasy titles, which is the potential for doomsday. Hence the name of that game. The layout of objectives, and game mechanics are much different to RPGs typical in that genera.
Yet, this story is heavily used in conjunction with many RPGs. If a player feels rushed into meeting an objective. Shall they seek to play again in finding other solutions to reach that objectively differently? I am believing that has not been what developers aim to permit for player agency. That story of heroes stopping utter destruction is popular. A design that removes options from players is unpopular.
Story Versus Game Design
Drakengard 3 en the Nier games are not the best games but very special to me because of the story and the music, in my eyes they are inspired by theology i was raised christian turned out be more "gnostic" eastern thinking jean-paul sartre kabbalah kybalion Quetzalcoatl, i started believing in the commandment of Eden the idea of good and evil is polarizing poeple justifying escalation . Nietzsche: whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster” and “if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. Keiichi Okabe Emi Evans, Those Games are catharsis to me. like no others very special.
In addition to the request to "do story vs. player agency" by @nathandanner4030, kindly consider also doing "story vs. game design"...specifically in a RPG, which I gather was actually the original question. We all know no one is arguing that all video games of all kinds, unto Doom and COD, should have an interesting and nuanced story to tell, but if it's a RPG or the developer/publisher dares to call it a RPG when it obviously isn't, it is absolutely pointless to produce it if and when the story of the game is meaningless, blathering nonsense "designed" to support game mechanics as opposed to the other way around. In such a game, there's nothing in the game itself for the player to play off of with a character created from the whole cloth of their own imagination and nothing for the player to do aside, perhaps, from *play around* with its mechanics, e.g. supposed "builds", because no soul or human spirit has been infused into the game and it most probably exists solely for the purpose of financial gain. (Well, that and -- lately -- perhaps go out their way to discover any soul that might be in the game regardless the tripe shoveled over the top of it.)
Pardon my bluntness, but you've skated around this subject to the point that I'm beginning to question whether you're actually an experienced designer worth listening to or just another industry apologist because I'm honestly leaning heavily toward industry apologist, atm.
I feel like I’ve answered this question repeatedly, so I guess I’m not an experienced designer worth listening to.
@@CainOnGames Can you explain how Vampires the masquerade got made, I recently tried to understand who was behind the game feeling so captivating, but I couldn't find the credits for "writer" or "narrative designer", seems like the game was hugely loved because it just did the story telling really well. Looked like the people behind that project kinda went into less good games mostly. Like the vampires really felt like a gem even with it's rough edges. Yeah, it really stands as a great example of what modern aaa games do wrong. Small world, limited choices, but somehow end up feeling alive and worth experiencing again differently. It can't be that the setting was only thing that made it good, because the previous game requiem didn't have such a good story. Pillars of eternity also had good writing and world building, at least that's what I remember about it, kinda made me quit the game after starting out with all monk team. Monks were fun, but they were generic compared to real characters.
Might it be fruitful for Tim's channel to host a narrative designer or whomever it may be who specializes in "balancing" story, characterization and RPG mechanical elements and design? You know, someone who might speak more or less authoritatively on the subject.
Most RPGs feel excessively top-heavy in that regard, i.e. mechanics trump story or, even, mechanics to the near- or utter exclusion of engaging story and characterization and dialogue. I would think the game director would be responsible for insuring that balance over the course of development, but don't work in the industry, so I've no idea the title of the person or persons ultimately responsible for establishing and maintaining that balance or "tone".
I played a game recently that had been nearly universally panned for one perfectly legitimate reason or another, but nonetheless found within it the signatures of (what I think) were individual developers who weren't just mindlessly performing their tasks as instructed and put something of themselves or the original spirit of the "franchise" into the game that was of undeniable quality regardless the overall lack of quality and careful consideration to be found otherwise. It possessed environmental clues, if you will, as to what had transpired in the game world prior to the player entering the game world, but dropped the ball at that point and tried to lead the player around by the nose to do whatever the development company and/or publisher and/or both fully intended for them to do whether they wanted to and/or enjoyed it or not. It was a game I had no intention of touching with a 10-foot pole when I first learned of its development because I knew exactly what it was. Various circumstances led to my playing it anyway, so I determined to discover for myself whether it was really as "bad" as most everyone was saying; whether the developers actually did create problems they then attempted to sell the solutions for (they did); or if it possessed any redeeming qualities whatsoever. It did possess redeeming qualities, surprisingly enough, but those qualities were so overshadowed by manipulative and predatory industry practices, I couldn't in good conscience recommend it to anyone else.
How unfortunate that we're never called upon to do anything other than "like" or "dislike" or "recommend" or not "recommend" a game based on criteria we haven't established ourselves and/or are labelled "haters" if we dare criticize anything whatsoever about a game. If there's ever to be any improvement of the medium itself, especially, I should think those most invested in it would be among the first to accommodate earnest, sincere and heartfelt criticism of their work as opposed to being defensive to the point of utter childishness.
@bezceljudzelzceljsh5799 I’d recommend watching my Vampire Bloodlines playlist:
Vampire Bloodlines
th-cam.com/play/PLI8W_yHW-3DWP4pWJrsE8wsGWMaEQkpH2.html
That’s most of my experiences on the project.
@@lrinfi " i.e. mechanics trump story or, even, mechanics to the near- or utter exclusion of engaging story and characterization and dialogue."
Like what games do you think have a good story, and what specific games have the mechanics trump story problem?
Bladerunner game is pretty good story focused game, you might like it if you prefer story.
VtM is more of a story game, combat isn't too bad if you use unofficial patch(hollywood sewer skip)
I know some games that use gameplay as supplement for story, but you seem to imply that there are games that do the opposite and suffer from it.