Heavy Arrows Breaking Bone
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ก.ค. 2024
- Can you break bone below 650 grains? YES! But how often should you expect it to happen? Oh do tell, hit the play button and find out.
2008 Update Part 1: Search by name in Google or click link (I think!!)
static1.squarespace.com/stati...
Dumpster Shooting, Arrow Penetration, Kinetic Energy, Ballistic gel Playlist click below!
• Broadhead and Arrow Pe...
Ashby Bowhunting Foundation Cape buffalo Testing 2021 - Scroll to bottom: www.ashbybowhunting.org/suppl...
Great Products to build an adult Arrow system:
Ranch Fairy Store: siriusarchery.com/rf/
Magnus Broadheads:magnusbroadheads.com/single-b...
Sirius RF Arrows and RF test Kit: siriusarchery.com/ranch-fairy/
Ranch Fairy Field Point Kits: siriusarchery.com/product/ran...
Adult arrow binge list
1. Heavy Arrow Handload Video: • Bare shaft arrow tunin...
2. Bare Shaft Nock Tuning: • Bare Shaft Nock Tuning...
3. Fletched Nock Tuning: • Nock Tuning Fletched A...
4. Unpredictable Blood Trails: • Bloodtrails are NOT Pr...
5. How Broadheads Kill: • How Broadheads Kill
6. Broadhead Penetration Basics: • Broadhead Penetration ... - กีฬา
![ฉันจะ "แพรี่" ให้หมด - ผู้แข็งแกร่งที่สุดในโลกอยากจะเป็นนักผจญภัยให้ได้ - ตอนที่ 04 [ซับไทย]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/PvmuP8y9IPk/mqdefault.jpg)
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you. The most misunderstood, misquoted, and maligned factor in the Study. Well done, Sir.
Dr. Ashby I have a suggestion that may help further this fabulous education your foundation is putting out.
First we always apply feet per second FPS to arrow and bullet speeds. Well in this chuckle head world we live in I have found that when I explain those speeds in miles per hour MPH and show them the simple math to do the conversion, thier heads explode. Then show the correlations between weight and speed in this manner by using examples like car crash tests they all of the sudden understand FOC and the heavy points.
When they realize that an arrow clocked at 175 FPS is going 119 MPH at launch maybe this is a help to Troy and Darrell when describing the losses of fast light arrows down range compared to slower heavy ones. I'm always reminded of the tortoise and the hare story. It just seems that through my experiences the knuckleheads have a more firm grasp on MPH when I'm making a comparison in this manner. Once again great work sorry for the extensive post. Hope this helps.
I have this similar type of conversation with my students in my heavy equipment brakes class (i.e. what is going to stop quicker a loaded semi or a car.) I get the MPHs you are telling about. Another way too maybe describe it would be as speed goes up torque goes down and as torque goes up speed goes down. Food for thought. But great job Dr. Ashby and great job @ravenflight88.
@edashby4399 @@ravenflight88 Interesting🤔... My example is a sedan (or Corvette) & a Coal ( or 1/2 ton) Truck heading towards each other. The sedan or sports car light & much faster & the truck heavy & may need a little more time to get to 50 or 55mph OR Maybe just the amount of braking needed by eachl?
I posted a long comment on here and did a poor job trying to quote you and I missed your comment entirely! Thank you for saving us from so much trial and error.
I agree with RF that confirmation bias drives a lot of the haters on this subject. I've been bowhunting for 47 years and have seen some pretty crazy, almost unexplainable things happen when an arrow hits a deer. As far as breaking bones, one complicating factor seems to be whether the bone, especially a leg bone, is loaded up under strain/tension when that broadhead hits it. I have had a couple of hard quartering away shots that hit the hind quarter just as the deer was loading his hind legs to bolt and the femur just shattered in both cases. Conversely I have hit a small buck right in the shoulder blade above ball joint just as the deer was raising his leg. Knocked him right off his feet and the arrow just fell out with no penetration using a Muzzy 3 blade head, and he just got up and walked away unhurt. I agree 100% that if I had been using a heavy arrow with better mechanical advantage it would have blown right through him. For all those who have had 147 kills on 147 shots and saw every one fall within sight, well God bless them. For the rest of us who have had some sleepless nights after a not so great hit, we'll keep looking for ways to get better and do better. Keep up the good work, Troy.
Love this.
And we are human after all. You can remain in the fairy dust nation forever. One of the best quotes ever on my channel is:
"For all those who have had 147 kills on 147 shots and saw every one fall within sight, well God bless them"
495 grains at 16% foc and 265 fps, easily through both deer shoulder blades. 430 grains at 280 fps with magnus stinger split the ball joint on exit. Both broadheads were sharpened with fairy dust.
I appreciate all RF Mr. Ed has done for all us bow hunting enthusiasts.
In particular this clarifying video on this bone breaking study.
Ranch’s’ reading reminded me of my childhood when my mommy used to read me a bedtime story.
May be a good idea to read from Dr. Ed’s studies every week!
Keep’em coming RF!!!
The way I see this Troy, is that they don't know or don't understand this stuff as much as you and Dr. Ed do and they don't like it. That makes them feel bad, or just plain stupid. So they go out of their way to prove you wrong and that makes them feel better about themselves. I've seen this so many times in my 77 years here. The only-problem here is that: You can't argue with science!
Jim
Blue collar man here. I dont have time to deal with bones. The deer is dead when i get a shot thats why im at 700grains single bevel haha
This is very important to us traditional archers.
Uh guys... the science doesn't lie! My setup is one that I'm confident in. Sirius Apollo 250's, 4 fletch, 100 grain insert, 200 grain grizzly stik massai. Shooting 30" draw at 65lbs. Out of an Elite Remedy. Absolutely the best flying setup and hardest hitting one I've ever shot. Either shoot adult arrows, or don't! But don't hate on the guys that have done decades of research proving the theory
What vanes are you running? I'm set up the same as you with aae max and can't get the tail end to quit circling.
@@4door65dart8 Bohning X Vanes
So are you saying guys like Tim gillingham haven’t done decades of testing and proven the lethality of of a lighter, faster setup?
@@progradepainting3755I would love to see their test data. Can you point me in the right direction? Can I google something the same way I can the Ashby reports or is there a website?
Gillingham is a big, tall dude with a long draw and a crack shot. He is on a different level than the average bow hunter. We are not as good as him. So we level the field.
As a physicist, one huge thing that is not obvious to non-scientists is the premise of probability. Usually people will conceptualize things as being either totally random or totally deterministic. The premise that you can rigorously predict and determine the *probability* of something occurring is a subtle enough premise that you should expect some challenges in communicating such things. You don't actually have to be stupid to misunderstand something as subtle as this.
Thanks RF.
Ive gone from 465 grains to 600 grains with a 250 spine. Im loving it.
I went from shootings flappers on a 400 spine arrow to a magnus on a 300 spine arrow and it has significantly improved my on meat performance after diving into RF'S content quite heavily and its amazing how much i was leaving on the table shooting 70 pounds and never getting a pass through on 10 deer to getting 5 pass throughs on the first 5 deer i have shot since the change its mind boggling the difference
The issue wasn't the flapper. It was shooting a severely underpinned arrow out of a 70# bow. I'd never go back to the shop that sold you those.
@Mitchell-ur7qt I never said it was because of the flapper and your right I was severely underspined and it happened when I was 18 cuz I bought the bow from Dick Sporting Goods so that was the whole problem.
@garrettcox5616 sooooo none of the other stuff matters lol. Shoot the proper spine arrow, shoot a proper tuned bow and you are solid
I was very glad to see The Hunting Public Crew, start learning from and testing with you.
Those guys will excel!
Christ bless!
They already excelled , what’s your point?
@@chrississon2646 He meant they are young & get much better as they get older. It was a compliment.
Hi, Thanks for your videos and knowledge on the bow efficiency to ethically harvest animals. I agree fully with Ed Ashbys research and testing the lethality of a bow and arrow. I understand the 650 grain threshold. The one thing not mentioned is the speed of the arrow he was using. I use a Magnus stinger and believe thye pocess 😮enough structural integrity to breach a whitetail deers bone structure with the accept of the shoulder knuckle providing you have enough momentum to penetrate efficiently and follow all the other thing like good arrow flight, a strong arrow and as much front of center without sacrificing arrow flight. I myself shot a 480 grain arrow and generate a out 70 lbs of kinectic energy and .6 momentum 19 percent Front of center with a 60 lb compound. I'm 62 and cant accurately shoot 70 lbs anymore. I'v been bow hunting for over 40 year and really never had trouble breaking ribs to get into the vitals I never experienced the scapula causing bad penetration it is actually softer than the ribs. I only take slight guartering
shots. I don't risk bad angle shots I think the setups you are promoting are definitely are more effective and are top of the line the only problem for me is the cost to effectively achieve this amount of perfection. I believe I'm doing my best to ethically harvest Whitetails. Maybe someday I'll be able to financially afford to upgrade. Thank you for the knowledge you share. Good luck and safe hunting. Ralph
That is so easy to understand.... Broadheads can and do break bones and they do that below 650 grains. BUT at around 650 grains ALL broadheads will see a sharp increase in the ability to break bone. Simple to understand.
Shoot a light arrow into you target. Make note of the sound when it hits... Then use a heavy arrow.. A TOTALLY different sound. Whether you are shooting a vertical bow or a crossbow.
I shot a small cow elk on a quartering away with a gold tip hunter 340 and a g5 fixed blade at 40 yards and maybe got 12” at best into the elk. I will never do that again. I did get the elk but it shouldn’t have went as far as it did. I’m hoping I get a shot this year with my current improved setup. The single bevels are flying like darts. I’m getting excited for September!!!!
Roy, I'm jealous to say the least. May you have great success in your elk hunt!! (that is my dream adventure)
Great video and great comments on confirmation bias. It has to be maddening to discuss this with people intentionally trying to misinterpret the study and never providing their own extensive research. Thanks for the education.
Thank you for another brilliant video while explained. I am afraid you are always going to get the demet's who want to disprove everything that they read. Even though they probably did not read the entire study that doctor add dead. You and the rocketman are brilliant. Putting the information in a way that everybody can understand. 👏👏👏🇺🇲👍🇬🇧👍
I appreciate the ol' RF. Especially the tuning vids and he will actually respond to an email clarifying anything that is unclear. Last year with the arrows/broadhead combo i had I shot 590g. This year a different combo going about 550, next year a little lighter. Maybe the next heavier, it just depends on what works on my animals and how I shoot each setup. Its a constant journey always tinkering.
Yep I hear you man. After sniffing a little fairy dust myself I've got fletching jigs sharpening tools all kinds of stuff I can quit trying different things. Belive my arrows are lethal.
Ranch Fairy is awesome! Keep up the GREAT work Troy!
Love the content. Keep it up!
Thank you Ranch Fairy! Keep em coming, I'd watch some videos of you fishing too if you have or post any
This really clicked with me, extremely interesting!
I hunt out west from 20-60 yards which is really all you should be taking game at no matter east/south/north/west responsibly with a bow and arrow. I have two arrow configs, 505 and 592 grains.. thats it. I carry both in my quiver and know the holdovers for both in those ranges because it's the only arrows I use. I practice with an iron will field point which is spot on tor their single bevel bh's out to that range and a four fletch 3 deg helical. Money on anything in NA and prob abroad as well... you're a good guy Troy and I watch every angle of bowhunting. You did your perspective with real data and that can never be discounted.
Good think you don’t make the rules on one’s personal abilities with a bow.
Very excited to try out my high FOC set up this season! I have followed RF for years. This year I had a absolute stud of a whitetail show up regularly. The location is a perfect area to hunt traditional. So I plan to shoot a 700+g tradstar this year. We live in southern Oklahoma on a 10,000acre ranch so hopefully can get some test subjects in before deer season.
@RanchFairy I purchased a 250 spine tradstar with 200g inserts and 300g field points planning to shoot the tuffhead. The recurve I plan to shoot is 55lb would you suggest a collar for added integrity? Also do you think a 200g RF broadhead would be a better selection?
I love watching your videos you and T Bone both preach FOC and it’s awesome I have been tinkering the last few years with foc and I have noticed a difference between higher foc and just slapping arrows together n hunting like I used to.
T Bone might preach FOC, but he has an idiot of a friend with the name Waddell on his channel that do the same, but also talks about how great mechanics are and that no broadhead and arrow combo in the world is able to break humerus bone on adult deer and elk sized animals, so you might as well use a mechanic in his opinion.
He is for sure saying this to sell his mechanic broadhead, but he is also either totally clueless or he is lying when saying that.
I am shooting a 650 grain arrow at 260 fps with a 15% FOC and use a single bevel 2-blade broadhead(Cutthroat) and I have done that multiple times and where the arrow has still continued and left the animal on the other side.
Also on elk sized animals.
I have in fact never experienced a humerus stopping my arrows after I started to hunt with this setup.
With this setup, I have never needed to be worried about bone stopping my arrows again, so as long as I know I can hit the right spot from whatever angle it is, I know my arrow is going to reach the vitals and kill the animal quickly.
I never shoot behind the shoulder on angled towards shot as I see so many do, and where they often get a gut shot animal as the result.
I aim/shoot for the top of the heart, no matter what.
I never try to hit the humerus, so if I think that is directly in the way, I aim just to the side of where I think it is.
It is always good to try to avoid it to be as safe as possible, even if it has always ended very well for me when I have hit it.
I do a lot of still hunting and spot and stalk hunting, so I don't have the luxury of usually having great chances for perfect broadside shots like when sitting in a treestand or in a blind.
@@The_Judge300 wow you seem salty as hell about a guy talking about using a mechanical who cares hunt with what makes ya happy. That’s why we all do what we want and hunt with what with what we want. They like mechanicals you like a 2 blade single bevel it’s all each their own. I use mechanicals and fixed heads an have had plenty of success. These videos are here for people to learn from not for someone like you to go on a long rant about a guy that has probably more success hunting than you by a long shot n he does say he is blessed and lucky to have the opportunities like he has but guess what they use what works for them.
The intro is AWESOME!! Hahaha. Great video, well said..
love your content.
Thank you “common core” education. Promoting stupidity in our youth. Good job Ranch good video
I really like your channel. I’m learning a lot. Having to forget many things I thought was true
Holler anytime on Insta or troy@ranchfairy.com
Hopefully I can send you something this year. Spent a couple years tinkering. What I'm shooting now is what I'm going to stick with. Getting really good arrow flight and consistency with a 610 gr, 5mm Easton Axis w/ 150 gr left bevel Iron Will (250 gr up front). Fletchings have a left helical to match the bevel and natural rotation of the arrow. Hopefully a mule deer will cooperate and I'll let you know how it works.
Love it. Thank you
Awesome explanations. Based on my bow speed @ 70lbs I was losing kinetic energy with 650gn but happily settled on 565gn for best results. Punching through 44gal drums easy
Well, you're not doing good math.
KE is constant. Until you get downrange.
Then heavier objects retain more energy.
Good stuff!
Ashby is awesome and really helped open a focus to FOC which before his,really wasn't such a big topic. Kudu's to him. I still stand by, as a compound bow hunter, I follow after a 3 headed monster. KE,FOC,Momentum. Many people got off the KE thing we were on pretty hard in the early 2000's. KE is still relevant. KE is going to begin with your bow poundage capability to propel mass x speed. Lower the poundage, and you lose that mass by speed. They all are connected and work in unison with ofcourse a well tuned bow first and foremost.
So my bone breaking increases from when I went from 70 pounds to 80 pounds. Don't know any of the statistics, but I examined plenty dead animals including maybe hundred animals dead with a Easton FMJ and never a catastrophic failure like we seen online.
I'm settled on a 580 grain arrow 5mm 3K weave arrow shaft with a 50 grain stainless half out and 150 head on my 80 pound PSE EVO EVL 32 80% Let off,smashes any bone on any animal on North America easily. I have gone as far as 660+ total arrow weight using a 6.2mm arrow and really smoked bones too. The issue is, it's so heavy, I don't have enough tape on my sight to get much further than 60 yards. But a great arrow nonetheless,especially for hog hunting over a feeder.
I don't know the statistics. I read and watch videos like this and get some help, Troy helped guide me because increasing FOC on 80 pounds isn't so easy. You tinker,and expreimen. I have the added advantage of a hunting lease year round hogs,and plnety of them to try things out. When deer season comes around, all my equipment has been proven to me and established.
So thanks to guys like Ashby and Troy for just EXPOSING you to new ideas from proven scientific methods. It's up to you to fit it in with what you do. For me, I have 2 arrows that tune out of 2 bows for 2 different purposes. I'm happy. Question remains what would I use on a Elk or Bison ? I think both would work great,one will have distance limitations.
Good job RF. . Never seen so many know it alls outside of archery. And i do medicine for a living. Lol
I'm shooting really heavy arrows by accident. I was trying to build a 665 grain arrow, but I cut my first shaft too short and I'm too cheap to throw them away, so I added heavier points until it spined properly. My prototype arrow ended up being 740 grains. And now that's all I shoot out of my 60# recurve. I could shoot lighter, faster arrows...but why? Thanks for all that stuff you do RF. Great videos. Very informative.
Aside from your entertainment value, I keep watching your chanel (or any other chanel you're a guest on) because i ALWAYS learn something new.
Thanks and keep being you RF
There will always be people who do not read the full article
I watched my cousin who was shooting a 58# compound bow (some Bowtech bow from about three years ago) shooting a Rage Hypodermic mechanical broadhead hit an Elk in a rib bone at 18 yards and it looked like the arrow BOUNCED OFF THE ELK? It had about an inch of blood on the shaft back from the MANGLED broadhead.
Now I would never ever shoot a mechanical broadhead at an Elk, but he would and did. The following year he was shooting Helix and hit a bull at 21 yards up hill. He drove the arrow through part of the elbow joint and went about through the heart. Now you know a heart shot doesn't usually produce an instant kill. So we walk up on the thing and he shoots it square in the ass. It wobbles off to about 45 yards and stands broadside. With this shot he smokes it behind the shoulder a nice double lung shot. Arrow blows through like nothing. At the point the Elk explodes down hill (steep down hill) and piles up about 80 yards away on the only flat spot on that mountain that I think existed.
I'd like to note that everyone we ever talked to about hunting Elk (including me) begged him with tears in our eyes to NOT shoot an Elk with a Hypodermic mechanical. I still shoot a Hoyt Super Slam legacy, 73#, 30" Draw, 2315 with 125 muzzy 3 blade. I'm shooting 218fps. Finger tab.
Hey Troy, you're doing an amazing job... but the realization just hit me, as I'm turning 30... that apparently 2008 was 15 years ago. Do you know if the Ashby Foundation is in the process of a 2028 update, using everything from blazing fast, lightweight arrows, to the heavyweight bruisers... mechanical and fixed blade? I feel like technology has changed so much, especially in the past 10 years, that it's tough to quantify. I'd be surprised if anything could beat the 650 grain fixed blade... but it would be awesome to have a more recent update, that uses all styles of archery equipment, to reach a definitive conclusion. I'd love to see that collaboration... not just on big game, but deer, and pigs too.
Keep up the great work, man! I just received the 200 grain broadheads from Sirius, and they look incredible. One more paycheck and I'll order the test kit.
Last season I went up in arrow and bow weight 76# hoyt ventum pro 33 arrows are rip tko 250 spine with 75g inserts, 15g collar and a 200g tuffhead evolution (580g total) I've never seen so much arrow penetration. Took a quartering towards shot and broke 2 bones on a whitetail. The first was a rib. The second was after the arrow exited lower opposite abdomen, struck and broke its hind leg. The arrow continued going and was embedded into the ground. Total tracking was approximately 50 to 60 yards. I'm strongly considering bringing my bow up to 82# and switching to 200 spine sirius Gemini with 100g inserts and 200g rf single bevels
Came for the info, subscribed for the sarcasm. Planning to buy some adult arrows for this season
I never heard a “boom flopper” say they are going Elk hunting and need to buy a 22-250? It’ll kill them too with perfect shot placement though right?
If anyone has ever seen the old 1930’s? Howard Hill African bow hunting expedition movie you will see he uses a very narrow long two blade head. Wooden shafts naturally. No idea of the weight. Point is his points had a great “ mechanical “ design for superior penetration. Long and narrow. I’m assuming he used very heavy shafts with a 70-80 bow? He wasn’t naive enough to use a light draw weight for African game. Troy, love this video because so much information is based on hundreds of animals examined after the kill. No guessing, research and facts
If you like the history of archery, “the Great War bow” might interest you. It’s about medieval archery. There are historical text that describe the bow and arrow specs. Which is why we still measure in grains.
Thank you for all the info.
I am an old fart that was heavy into archery hunting until a work accident. I was devastated.
Then along came crossbow hunting. But the early crossbows did not meet my standards for my accuracy.
Crossbows evolved, now I hunt again. Thus, I am trying to teach an old dog new tricks.
I love the info you give us. Back in the day we would hunt with wooden shafts and gluing Bodkins onto the shafts after our spin tests.
We quickly found out that the long narrow tip was not a good idea. We blunted the tips and sharpened the tip into a tanto tip (if I was smart i would have patented it).
My uncle was older and was only able to shoot a recurve at 50 pounds. He shot a deer at 20 yards and had a pass thru.
We were amazed that the arrow had shattered both front shoulders!
It's people like you that enable people like me to still keep on keeping on.
Thank You
Trying to get hunters to understand that something increases odds of success or lowers odds of success instead of absolute results is difficult. Statistics don't lie, people just misinterpret them haha good clarifications!
good point. and unfortunately this isn't in just the hunting world. many people struggle to have an open mind, think critically, and consider data, facts, and evidence.
@paulwakefield1015 it's not just the hunting world, but the marketing in the outdoor industry is overwhelmingly affecting opinions over results
Seems simple enough to understand to me
Excited to watch! so i hear a lot of noise that ashby studies on physics doesn't apply in a world of compound bows; that it only applies to trad equipment. Was wondering if Troy has ever unpacked what seems to be a common misconception.
F=MA does not have a variable for trad/compound...
@@BriarJumper agreed. Then where does this narrative come from that we are discounting the laws of physics because the arrow is moving slower. I’m just not sure where that narrative originated from .
@@paulwakefield1015 Ashby foundation website. Supplemental reports 2021 and 2022 on buffalo. Compound, 80#. the ABF continues to test.
So F=MA is hard to get over....but the speed thing is fair. It is going faster. Enter the Drag Equation. Nasa has a bunch of information on this.
Velocity SQUARED increases drag, same with KE.. In the air, in meat, etc. Do I think the faster arrows help, yep. But its not the crazy gains people think.
Without tuning arrows and having great broadheads.
Went from shooting Walmart Specials..cheap Blazer Vanes with a cheap expandable head..
to a RF Apollo 250 spine at 29 1/2 in w/ a 125 Single Bev: totaling 578.06 grs ( I wanted to go 200 single bev, but my 2012 Bear Strike would not allow it)
I get laughed at a bow shops, I get "you're shooting javelins", and "you listen to Ranch Fairy, he's a quack only shooting pigs at 20 yrds"... when mainstream "finger on the pulse" type people are telling you you're wrong... I want to listen to Troy even more....yeah I used the last sight tape on my Tetra, but I'd rather have a HEAVY BadASS perfectly paper tuned with a Shit ton of Momentum than what I previously was using..
Nobody taught me anything about Archery Hunting, I stumbled onto Mr. Fowler's channel and I never looked back..
NO the arch out to 60 yards isn't hitting the treetop, no it's not limiting.. It makes me more confident, makes be a better hunter, and makes me cocky as fuck when I go into Bow shops and outsmart either the Flat Billed 5'6 neck beards and/or the white hair in the ears fud boys when they try to tell me I'm "shooting the wrong arrow"
Nice flex. I see that green bottle in the background 😂😂
Crossbow running Sirius Phoenix 22 inch carbons, 125 grain inserts and Ranch Fairy (tuffheads) 200 grain single bevel. 625 grains. So am I almost there ? LOL. Gonna keep what I got, this all works fantastic for me so far !
Easy fix if I want to get anal about it, just use a 300 grain tuffhead single bevel. Not going to, but it's right there, all I need is a bank card.
Heavy arrow effiecentcy is pretty easy. What do You want to get hit by, a hardball at 80 mph or a tennis ball at 90 mph? Which is going to break more bone? Which will fly farther.? Which will be less effected by the wind or some odd twig?
HAHAHAHAHAH NICE! Finishing with the hunter shooting a goat length wise through it's entire body and saying yah, 650 gn's! LOL
Would you consider the tuff head evolution 2 wide or no do to the 1-1 rise over run with them
I started 400 twizzlers.. moved up 300 spline 150 Magnus BraodHead Scalpel Sharp . 540 grains. Still a bit shy of 650 .but 540 and sharp broad head.pass threw !
I’m not pandering, but I don’t worry anymore where I place my shot, calm down I still shoot for the vital v but I really don’t stress over all the stuff I used to worry about , and another awesome effect of my heavy arrow is my bow is crazy quiet!!!
I have one setup that works extremely well on all critters I hunt.
That means everything up to a cape buffalo, but not a cape buffalo.
And that is a 650 grain arrow at 260 fps, with a FOC of 15%.
I have used that setup for 15+ years with great success now.
I have broken numerous humerus on different critters with this, including elk sized ones.
If the critter is rather small, I use a Slick Trick Magnum or even a mech like the Spitfire Maxx.
If the critter starts to become medium sized, like a whitetail doe, I ditch the mech and either use the Slick Trick, a Magnus Stinger or even a Cutthroat.
If the critter becomes elk sized and bigger, I ditch the Slick Trick and the Magnus Stinger and only use the Cutthroat.
The main reason for why I don't use the Cutthroat all the time, is because they are rather expensive broadheads to lose if I am not able to find it again after the shot as I always have the arrow flying on the other side of the animal after a shot unless I hit the spine.
The same happens with the other broadheads as well, but they are far from as expensive if I am not able to find them again.
I do most of my hunting from the ground still hunting or stalking, so losing the arrow after shooting an animal is not uncommon.
@Ranchfairy I heard you say in one of your recent videos that if you have bleeder blades up front they are not as effective as if they were in the back. Any feedback on that would be appreciated. Love the videos man! 🤙🏾
Not anything Ive researched....yet. Just makes sense to have them small and as far back as possible to allow the main blade time to start the penetration work.
@@RanchFairybasically want the bleeders to be the clean-up crew instead of the opening act if you’re gonna have em
Keep it up RF!
Truly, I don’t believe archery hunters will ever agree. However, when they hit a deer in the scapula and find their arrow (without the deer) that only penetrated 2-3 inches, they should build a pan B setup.
Some folks are stubborn.
Keep buying Chinese junk steel😂
How did Howard Hill get by without the book of "Hunting arrow weight for Dummies"
I know "COMMON SENSE"
The other channels trying to play off of ur content are funny too saying ur too radical with heavy setups and they start preaching a "middle of the road" arrow telling ppl that's the best way to go. Meanwhile, their videos show them rarely getting pass throughs unless the animal is less than 12 yards away 😂
You get one shot. Maybe less then a handful times in the season. Make sure it counts and your able to put meat in the Freezer.
What broadhead would you suggest for a beginner
I thought of some anatomy videos there.
If you get time, I've NEVER seen a video on single bevels breaking bone with a realistic poundage traditional bow 45-50 lb. I wonder if there is an energy threshold for the bevel to be relevant ?
I have definitely noticed more penetration with my flappers by adding a 100 gr. Brass Insert.
slowly walking into the dark side!
Lol the equivalent of using a sledgehammer to pound finish nails, works great until the nails bend. Just get a cut on contact broadhead you'll never want those junk points again.
Did they experiment with the speed because that could make that 650 grain number much lower, the reason I say this is on my old bow, My 295 grain arrows had better penetration into my targets then my current 365 grain arrows, not hunting with this now but have shot deer with the 295 grain arrows, and broken bone, in multiple spots. Granted the arrow was traveling at 387fps. I do not know, but suspect this was done with one bow one weight. That makes the 650 only relevant to one exact setup.
@@renurenovationsllc7780 read the study. If I recall the tests were done with bows as low as 40lb draw weights up to 80 something. Anyway it's not the speed so much as the momentum heavy hits harder no matter the launch speed. Think of it this way if you drop a grapefruit and and a bowling ball from the same height they achieve the same gravitational speed which ones going to break the bones in your foot when it hits? Also an arrow looses speed over distance the threshold is figured through momentum once again the heavy one hits harder and retains more forward momentum even as the speed decreases, the lighter faster arrow degrades in both speed and forward momentum. It's basic physics. An object in motion remains in motion until an equal opposite force is applied. That's why we need motors in cars for forward continuous movement an arrow or a bullet encounters atmospheric drag aka air resistance that inturn slows them down thats the opposing force the other opposing force is contact with the target. As Dr. Ashby stated an arrow is always in flight until it reaches the point that the opposing forces are equal.
I know all about there is!
Watch the young man run, he'll be runnin' against the wind.
Lol!
Ok ranch fairy I have a story you might fund funny.
Yesterday I go to my local bow shop ( macks Prarie wings) to get my arrows 4 fletcher and add a 100gr insert to replace my 50 gr, putting me around d 520 grains. The guy who runs the shop whose name I will not mention because he is a reputable guy in the area, refused to put the 100gr insert in my arrows and I formed me he shoots twizzlers and flappers with a 400gr arrow and does fine. So it looks like I'll be ordering adult arrows from you
Apollos!!
You see that makes no sense to me. Your money is just as green as the speed demon guys and you're the one that's going to be the end user of the product so why would they refuse to build them to your specs?
Im trying to find find a good arrow weight for 26.5 draw length at 55 lbs
troy@ranchfairy.com. email.
Have you done any studies on crossbow heavy arrows/bolts?
(Guess some algorithm didn't like my reply yesterday. Perhaps they are opposed to trying to help folks. I'll try again.) Yes, we did test with modern crossbows. Once an arrow is launched it doesn't know what launched it. It is just a projectile in flight. It continues to fly until it comes to a stop. All that changes is the medium it's flying through - air, hide, sinew, fascia, muscle, bone(s), internal organs. etcetera - until it (ideally) exits the animal and resumes flying in the air ... until it encounters another medium - soil, wood, etcetera. It flies until it stops.
In terminal performance on animal tissues, we deal with the factors that influence what happens from an impact on the skin until the arrow either stops or completely exits the animal. The major influencers of an arrow's terminal performance in tissues are the 12 Penetration Enhancing Factors. The 12 Factors apply to all arrows, regardless of what launched it. A full discussion on the 12 Factors can be found on our website. If you will look at the "About Us" section, under "Advisors" and find Jim Aken you will find excellent source material specific to modern crossbows.
hwy I have brain injury and can't pull over 55 60..lbs.. I have 250 arrows
I used rage because of accuracy any Ideas
Question Fairy! Totally different subject tho. Just received my Vulcan test kit and the inserts aren't halfouts. I thought that was the standard for the kit? Or just when I order the ez buttons do I specify I want a 100 grain halfout?
ez buttons deff have the jacket
@tttd3e alright sweet. Thanks for an answer
I believe the Vulcans do NOT get half jackets since they are .246 diameter.
Holler at Sirius. BTW - that's probably the most durable Sirius arrow!
@RanchFairy I agree I love it. I had vap micros and my bow would not shoot them came off tail high after everything except twisting strings an the like. Should have listened and got myself a test kit months ago. Thanks for your research and response you definitely have me in a dark deep hole lol
Surprising how many old guys I talk to and really good archers that still stick to the super light arrow with a flapper on it. Of course they have success because that’s all they’ve used like what? They completely ignore their failures that some could’ve been avoided with a little heavier arrow with a fixed head.
Well theres lots of us old guys who never used flappers and never will. I think thats more of the young archers thing.
@@jeffmitchell-qh4jpexactly always been above 550 and didnt know I was…
The problem with hunters, especially these kinds of "keep everything stupid simple and never try to be better" is that they aren't scientists, they dont have a STEM background, they dont understand how numbers and data works. I wish Ashby just posted the raw data, an arrow hitting game is such a complex process with so many variables that its difficult to make any concrete conclusions about anything.
Still amazes me how people try to discredit or disprove Ed’s studies.
I can never understand how today’s equipment fails at killing in such close ranges when these things were used in war to kill people in plate armour, chain mail and heavy gambeson at 400-500 yards and people say 3-6 inches of penetration is okay or an arrow deflects at 60 and they say thats hunting?!?!? People have no idea the weapons that they “use” and they make them so inefficient and ineffective.
It really blows my mind.
For me though i think there is too much emphasis on the grains. I get it i know why thats there but i think the focus should be momentum. Because the kinetic energy machine plays a HUGE factor too. And i don’t think its fair to ignore this.
Different draw weights different draw length’s different mechanical advantages will all be different.
Example a 30 lb draw recurve will pass through and animal with a 650 gr arrow because the momentum out of that is around 0.6-07 a compound with 80 lbs can get 0.6-0.7 with a 540 grain and so on.
I really think its the slugs of momentum that mean the most and if you want to use a mechanical head you need more momentum than if you used a fixed head. I really think once you have all the factors: arrow flight, structural, integrity, head sharpness ect, ect, getting to 0.5 and higher preferably of slugs is all you need. There is a diminishing return which occurs with anything that launches a projectile. And the kinetic energy machine determines what that is.
My crossbow did not like 630 grains they do not fly good and goes way too slow for the scope to be accurate. (Could have been how i made them) but 565 is still 0.7 slugs just like the 630 were and it does better it does it a little faster and the momentum is the exact same. You need to test your equipment to see what is right for you and your kinetic energy machine they are not all the same. So I understand the 650 bone breaking mark but what is that in terms of slugs? 0.6-0.8 range? That Troy would be a thing to look at.
Have you read “the Great War bow”?
@@waynemorris1999 no
at what speed were these arrows tested? and how much does this have an effect on grain weight? can you use a lighter arrow that's faster? what about the bows poundage? 50 vs 75 vs 100lbs... i have so many questions lol.
See my long range arrow performance playlist. Holler anytime
Troy@ranchfairy.com
There’s melted Snowflakes all over TH-cam now lol thank you #RanchFairy.
Is it possible to over spine an arrow ? If so what will happen ?
An “over-spined” arrow can lose energy and velocity as it veers off-target.
Ashby had to be shooting aluminums right? 2219, 2317, and 2419? I wonder if the 14gpi had a major effect of the 650 factor being from the weight or the arrow build being so high, because he had to shoot stiffer spine aluminum shafts that weighed more?
I used all types of shafting in the heavy bone testing - wood, aluminum, fiberglass, and carbon arrow shafts. The type of shaft material showed no variance in the bone-breaching rate.
How do you like that. You have a reply, from the man himself!!
When I mention this study to people, the common response I get is "well that's with a recurve, not a compound". How can I respond to that?
Ashby foundation website. supplemental reports.
UPDATES!! 2020 / 2021
80# compound - cape buff and asiatic buff.
Eds Arrow still won the testing.
I like to tinker, so I landed on a setup right at 800 grains. People say it's too much but I had fun and it was successful. Right side scapula, rib, soft stuff, rib, left side scapula, not a sound. Spun away from me at the shot arrow pointed back at me on the ground. 2 jumps and lights out.
Nice way to end the video!
That's science these days. Start with a conclusion. Like "safe and effective"
Brilliant!!!
I tried the 600 gr..60 lb. Setup ...it hits very hard but is only good for 20 yard shots ...that didn't work for me...heavy arrows get very expensive
I’m not trying to be rude but something seems off with your setup. Maybe tuning? My dad shot 60# 589gr at total archery challenge. We shot the long courses with no problems. I shot 70# 656gr and hit at 124 yards.
@waynemorris1999 my bow tunes perfect with this setup but just not enough speed to get there before they jump...this year I'm going to order a stiffer spine so I can go back to my 80 lb setup...I tried to work with what my bowshop had on hand...this foc stuff gets expensive..
They used an Asiatic Water Buffalo @ 20y. Besides ball joints & the bone area around the ball joint are heavy bone on a whitetail, Mule Deer & ELK. The question is what is the definition of 'Heavy bone & 'Medium bone'? Is it a diameter or density? I am just asking to get a sense of proportion as to effectiveness of a 500gr -600gr. on common US/Canada big game leg bones. Feral Camels & Cattle excepted. I'm just trying to figure things out from comparing Cape & Water Buffalo at short distance to common quadrupeds game. OK, I'll even add sheep & Mt. Goats to the mix. Yes, I've read Dr Ed starting years ago.
That’s a fair question. I did hit an elk in the spine which could be considered heavy bone. A combo of factors created a poor shot. I had a 12 factor arrow and it split a thoracic vertebrae. A second shot finished it. I don’t “think” my old, light arrows would have done that.
@@waynemorris1999 I agree. CONGRATS on it. Even if it was a little high. I'm mainly looking at front leg bones.Which are the most likely bones encountered. But, I get just a few deer tags a year. No Elk, Stag or Muleys, Axis, Audads, or Nilgai.
Update: Yes, the spine is a heavy bone.
Remember what Chris Rock Said ..
"Readin is for Rich People" 😂
Half way through. That's pretty simple science 😂
Can someone tell me how heavy an arrow needs to be to reach 45 ft-lbs!!? At 40 yards!?
KE? See my long range arrow testing playlist
in 95 percent of deer ive shot and recovered bones where cut threw not broken. shoot more like a 450 grain arrow cant rember exact waights atm and dk where my scale is to waight them. but the other 5 percent there was atleast a part cut into bone then bone shanped likly due to weakening and then strain as animal ran. you can ezly break bones when have a point of stress that will focuse forces aplied to the bone. bone is really no difrent that a weld assembly. if there a stress riser chance of failar greatly goes up. and to untrained eye a half brok bone may look like a fully broken bone.
The bottom line people are afraid of change!
Bone breaking is a function of psi not necessarily mass
So.....uh.....
Perfect arrow flight
Broadheads and inserts that don't bend
Broadheads that can break bone if needed
Blades that don't fly off.
and then we can talk but mass is a direct contributor to (we'll play along with PSI for your sake) mass is a direct contributor to DOWNRANGE delivered energy on target.
I have a whole playlist showing the downrange energy retention out to 60 yards. It was pretty amazing.
True story
Well u know ur doin something right when the haters are talking!! Do u boo boo😂
I need some help/advice from anyone watching. Im about to order a ranch fairy bareshaft test kit but not sure what spine. I shoot. 27in arrow at 57-60lbs. I was going to do the 250/300 but wondering if I need to get the 300/350… every dumb spine chart says 400 but I know that’s too high. Let me know!
Depends on the point weight, but 350 should be good to over 200gr. I don't know when it transitions to a 300 spine, though.
I recommend 250/300. Our setups are closely matched. I have been told my older bow has “aggressive cams”; and don’t really know if that’s a consideration. Consider how heavy you want your total arrow. At 535 grains I use 300 spine Victory V-Force shafts. I’ll be building roughly 735 grain arrows and will likely need 250 spine shafts. Have fun! This stuff is a blast!
@@308blr2 Aggressive cams do play a role. How big depends on how aggressive. FWIW I'm running 30" 80#, with 28-28.5" arrows. Low point weight I can use 250s, but anything higher than 200gr overall point weight I need to run a 200.
You could just buy a kit, then buy a single shaft and basically have both kits. That's what I'd do if I was on the fence.
@@jesse4530 Not a bad idea. A couple of years ago I made my own kit with various shafts that I could buy two at a time; and I combined it with Ethics Archery points in their multi pack. I think either way works well. Sirius Archery has some fine products.
What type of arrow build would it take for an intended brachial plexus shot? This would be an interesting subject. Not that I’m planning to do so
650-700 grains.
Perfect arrow flight.
Preferably the Tuffhead 3:1 225 or 300 grain broadhead on a steel or titanium adaptor, JB welded together. That setup at 800 grains has broken the humerus on a Cape buffalo.
On a deer. It's gonna be a hammer.
@@RanchFairy thank you for the reply! I just took a screenshot of this. I love this subject but I have a lot to learn
@@RanchFairy would you suggest 80lb mods on my Mathews lift 29.5?
@@cajun3197 You can do it. But it's a 100% start over on your whole arrow set.
So whatever you're shooting now, will not work.My assumption is you're not shooting 80#. If you are, youre good.
@@cajun3197 Message me on insta if you have questions.
Completely agree with the Ashby stuff and everything you do RF.
Still waiting to see if this aspect can be expanded on with today’s equipment.
For instance, 605 grains going 270 could have the same bone breaking ability as say 675 going 235?
Point is certainly speed is going to have some effect and finding that happy medium. And I’m sure testing this would be laborious.
Not chipping at you. This is for the crowd. It's amazing the industry is allowed to make anecdotal comments and put down the Ashby reports.
But they don't repeat the test with the magic arrows and "efficient" bows. It's pretty easy. Go do the test and shoot a 12 factor arrow against everything.
Simple as pie. Nope. The easy route is sitting in the basement eating Corn Pops.
Anybody with a 28.5" draw length or under(60lbs) experimented with how much point weight you can get away with before having to move stiffer than a 300 spine arrow? I'm shooting 275 gr point/insert now, wouldnt mind going with a heavier insert
I shoot a 28" draw at 61#. My arrows are 27" velocity pros 300 with a 100 gr. brass Insert and g5 deadmeats. No issues!!!
@@mr.skeptical3071 I'm shooting 200 gr single bevel with a 75 gr insert put a doe on the ground last year with it but wouldnt mind going heavier
@@nicetryb0z0 If you call the guys at Sirius Archery they were super helpful with me. I talked on the phone with them for a long time talking arrow weights and whatnot.. would be a good starting point.
@@mr.skeptical3071 a very sensible set up. been using something similar for years and I blow through everything.
I shoot a 28.5in draw, 70#, and last year used a 250 spine sirius apollo with 150 grain head and 75 grain insert with very good success, arrows consistently made bareshaft bullet holes through paper at 7 yards with no nock tuning required. So 300 spine with heavier weight but lower poundage could work. You are probably close to not having a stiff enough spine. I would paper tune and see how they fly with your cams set at factory settings and your rest set in the center position (assuming you have an adjustable dropaway rest)
Can we define what is “Heavy Bone”? I’m assuming a whitetail scapula doesn’t fall into this category, but a humerus or knuckle probably would? Whitetail ribs definitely done, but elk might? I think this would clear things up for many people.
I shoot an 8 factor arrow that is 480gr and it will absolutely double shoulder blade a whitetail. Now what happens when it hits an elk humerus, I don’t know.
Scapular flat and ribs are not heavy bone.
Humerus, ball of humerus, pelvis, femur, and the RIDGE of the scapula are heavy bone.
Your point is well taken. As the animals go up in size, the bones get bigger.
@@RanchFairy And that’s about what I figured the answer would be. We get too many of the “hurr durr muh rages blow clean through ribs!!” And just totally miss what heavy bone means. Hell, a spine hit at the right angle (unless them deer always stand still and never spin) could fall in the heavy bone category.
But I gotta go fast!
That last viewer video was excellent choice, exclamation point, etc… any one arguing with heavy arrows work better when perfection doesn’t is simple ignorance. Just keep shankin some of those big pigs for the cause.
You should make a video and read some of your hate mail!?
That might be very entertaining! 🤣😂🤣
I may do that.