Why SpaceX ditched lightweight Carbon Composites for Stainless Steel to make a sweaty Starship
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ม.ค. 2019
- SpaceX’s upcoming rocket called Starship Super Heavy formerly known as BFR, will no longer be made out of lightweight Carbon Composites, it’ll sweat a lot, and just MIGHT need a TON of WD-40.
So we’ll take a look at all of Elon’s most recent claims about stainless steel actually being the best option and see if we come to the same conclusion.
We’ll also take a look at some other rockets that are made of stainless steel and explain how SpaceX's use of this material is a little different as they’ll be using new manufacturing techniques and doing things that have never been attempted before.
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This video in article version - everydayastronaut.com/stainle...
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People on the 60’: Starships will look like this.
People on 2000: nah, they wont.
20’ Elon: oh, the hell they are.
Hahaa
@@mcbure1 optimism about the future. hopefully.
Please, don't let your Fender Telecaster guitar in that position, you demage the arm.
Sorry, I write from Monterrey, México.
@@mcbure1 we have those currently. Afghanistan is a complete failure and the embassy having to be evacuated rings of that war. Also Critical Race theory aims to bring back segregated schools
Yeah not really. The steel is going to be covered with insulation. Derp.
I really hope the final ship is polished to a mirror finish.
Chrome with flame? That would be cool🤣
i agree they really should, it also provides structural stability, as the smoother the finish is, the less micro cracks on the surface where structural failures could start
@@tamasan5374 lmao
tbh i think it will because the shinier it is the more heat it can reflect so the lighter it can be
Layers of kevlar and steel could work carbon outer layer for better heat dissipation
Elon Musk is literally making those classic old 60's esque space ships into reality.
Thats secretely his real plan
In 10-15 years we'll also have flying cars
@@starseed96 i dont believe so, its seemingly pointless especially with the fully automated eletric cars that are being mass produced at an affordable price, not to mention its literally impossible to make a floating car that could be publicly available
Elon is a demon, don't be deceived
@@nicholasjohnson6724 ok dood
Steel has a much much longer life as a frame, it's very well known and there are many effective inspection and repair methods. That makes a safer and more predictable frame. A reusable vehicle should be easy to inspect and to repair after each trip.
In my twenties I bought a good quality set of stainless steel pots and pans with lids. They are all still with me and used regularly. I'm in my fifties now. 30 years for cookware is pretty impressive
Steel does not have a fatigue limit, whereas aluminum does. This means that all aircraft which are made from aluminum will eventually fail (same thing with bicycles). Steel will not.
zilfondel
When I raced mountain bikes during the nineties, I gave up on aluminum handlebars after breaking enough of them and changed to titanium. Aluminum will eventually develop stress cracks and fail (depending on the specific application) hence why I would never buy an aluminum framed bike. I would only use one if sponsored and getting them for free and will only use steel or titanium; not to mention that aluminum frames are a stiff and uncomfortable ride so they’re really only suitable for bikes with full suspension.
@@zilfondel Steels most def have a fatigue limit. Its just much higher than that of aluminium.
@@haraldhimmel5687 steel is just much..MUCH. tankier.
If people ask: "What are space programs good for?"
My new answer will be: "They gave us the glorious WD-40"
Not to mention GPS.
@@Nevir202 hammer,ducktape and WD-40 for sure can fix even GPS!
And Velcro! And hundreds of other innovations!
Its a backup if the "greenpeace-people" fail :D Which will probably be the case. People do not fully grasp the enviromental catastrophy we are heading towards, but these exciting new frontiers, and to go where no man has gone before, THAT almost everyone can understand.
@@HogbergPhotography
Is the differentiation between greenpeace and grenpeace-people on purpose?
If so, then so do I hope that greenpeace crashes and burns and greenpeace-people succeed.
My favorite ironic thing about choosing stainless-steel nickel alloy is that most intact meteorites are made of iron & nickel. It's like the cosmos has been telling us what to use to get through our atmosphere this whole time!
Sometimes the most complex questions have the "simplest" answers.. Gotta love how this universe works
or its the fact they are hard to vaporize unlike other materials
@@brandondumont7223 If I was re-entering Earths atmosphere, I would prefer to be hard to vaporize over easy to vaporize, but thats just me.
yes sir, that was, very very IRONNIC....kel thing....
ok, which one is exit door please?...
The Chromium content is what gives it the extra zing...and molybdenum in 316
When the guy touched the foam at 7:43 I nearly had a heart attack
I think it was technically a female technician, but it's kinda nifty that 'guy' just sorta means the same thing as 'nerd'. : )
@@keithkelley7380 guy can be a general term for a person when you don’t know the gender
"It just works"
- Elon Musk
-Steve Jobs
He told the same about carbon. Then they made some naive attempt to make a 12m tank of carbon fiber in the back yard and failed. And now they are telling what a wonderful stuff stainless steel is.. didn't know about it before ?
Little lies, stunning shows, people buy, money flows! It just works, it just works, overpriced open worlds, people buy, money flows, it just works. It just works. It just woooorks.
Here is an idea that could work, and save weight. Cool the skin by exploiting the slower-moving air molecules that flow near the surface of the re-entering craft. How? By having slits between 'steps' that faster-moving molecules skip past, but slower ones can enter. This cooler air would be somewhat pressurized, and could be funneled under the craft's skin, and out small holes that are pointed in the same direction as the airflow around the craft. These exit holes would experience almost no pressure, because they would have small grooves in the craft's skin down-wind from them. Maybe use some methane at the higher pressure areas since not much pressure (but more than elsewhere) is required to eject it.
@@FLPhotoCatcher Maxwell's Daemon could help here.. Just need to improve it so he(the Daemon) could work in the high hypersonic flow.
"[...] it's destined for Mars." These words alone give me goosebumbs and make me glad that I'm alive in this century. There's a spaceship being build RIGHT NOW that is supposed to fly to MARS some day WITH PEOPLE ON BOARD. Dude.
That's crazy, 2 years ago i wasn't even expecting the human kind to go to the moon again, and now we re going on Mars
Being born in the mid eighties I missed out on the space race and only seen it's stagnation. I got a book from the beginning of the nineties telling about space. Among things are space station freedom. At that was realised as the ISS but the visions of how we soon get to Mars had always been pushed forward. SpaceX and Elon is the first time I feel we are actually getting closer to a manned base and later settlement.
The hype us space enthusiast are feeling these days is hard to measure, this will be beyond cool
I remember clearly where I was the day we landed on the moon. I was 8 years old. I built models of Apollo craft. After the cancellation of Apollo in my early teens, I watched all our fantasies of lunar bases fly out the window in favor of a finicky LEO shuttle. I am thrilled to have finally lived long enough to see the excitement of space exploration revived.
_Slight_ correction. The actual ship that will go to Mars isn't being built (just an Earth-bound prototype)... but you would be 100% factually correct if you say that it is being actively developed. And that is _truly_ awesome (as in, worthy of awe), because it is the first time in history that you can say that. We aren't sure it'll get done, of course. You have to be a fanboy and/or irrationally optimistic to think this is a done deal. But for once, we humans are actually, undeniably trying to do it. And that is awesome.
As an engineer, I love the change! You got it right in that whenever you can change to something readability available today, and ridiculously cheaper, go for it! And ya, engineering is all about compromise. I do feel that the payload won't be affected much.
Sometimes we get stuck on looking at one thing (ex. Carbon fiber), but it's always good to step back, and look at other possibilities no matter the initial impression. Sometimes the best answer will surprise you.
Which ever engineer or team at SpaceX came up with this solution, certainly deserves a nice bonus. I personally think this change is awesome and will absolutely help make sure this rocket becomes a reality.
In his interview with Pop-machanics, Elon said it was his idea and that it took a bit of effort to convince his people.
What I find the most ironic is that aesthetically the 1950s sci fi world is having the last laugh.
iowafarmboy. Not sure who came up with the idea, but Elon insisted on it. It took some time to convince his engineers that this is the way to go. This is typical Elon at his best. He never takes any previous experience for granted and always addresses challenges from a physics first principles approach. If he hadn't done this, we would not be seeing boosters land themselves.
Steve Bothe I totally agree, the fact that the design changed so much is not at all troubling to me, indeed it gives me a lot of hope for the future. It means that Elon isn’t afraid to turn everything upside down in search of the best engineering solution.
@@Matis_747 Agreed indeed. I've linked a couple of videos below, in case you haven't seen/heard them. The first is a podcast of Tom Mueller (SpaceX's chief engine designer), and the second is Dan Rasky, a NASA adviser, talking about how innovative and fast SpaceX move.
th-cam.com/video/Uu9sobNjPFY/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/MxIiiwD9C0E/w-d-xo.html
Space x protecc
Space x attacc
But most importantly space x use steel so the rocket don't cracc
I love this comment on so many levels
doesn't***
@@lvintagenerd That don't fit the rhyme.
*protecc
*attacc
@@euibincho5213 *cracc
It's alright, sweat just means the rocket is making massive gains. I'm sure they'll make some rocket sweat bands for when it takes that payload to orbit with its massive biceps.
Explosive power
massive payload from the tip of a dildo shaped rocket. no way you could get the same payload from a vagina shaped rocket.
Lmao
I’m super excited to see a shiny rocket! It’s going to look unbelievably sci-fi
Agree!
Finally we're getting the space ships that mid 19th century showed us. You can't beat that! I'm not a Apple guy but when they released iPhone it knocked the competitors design out the door. Functionally it doesn't matter how it looks but the feeling among the general public will be great. SpaceX might be igniting a great new support and interest for space travel.
... Our ludicrous future indeed...
@@subwarpspeed the best part will be watching it land on it's find like something right out of a comic
kikivoorburg . It’s not a coincidence that it looks like the 3 stooges scifi classic, Have Rocket Will Travel. Predictive programming at its finest.
Yeah, but where are Bugs Bunny and Marvin the Martian? ;-)
@@subwarpspeed 19th century? That would have been Jules Verne's giant cannon and bullet. I do believe the BFSs (I refuse to use Elon's stupid new names) should all be named after astronauts and science fiction writers, and the first one back to the Moon should be the SS Jules Verne.
My grade 4 students love watching your videos. They are getting excited about the future and space.
That's fantastic!!!!
That's awesome
Thank you for getting them interested!
@@johnsanvictores6639 I love to teach students about what I'm learning and passionate about.
I miss being in 4th grade, apart from the fact that I was a terrible student, both academically and behaviorally. I'm very excited for what is to come within the next decade or so. It would be so cool for humans to finally colonize Mars and discover new ways to travel through space faster.
"Sweaty metal" - name of my new band
more like name of the genre I'm about to invent
I love they got space ships spot on in the 1950's.
Yeah, back when science fiction was based on science, not on imagination.
Thanks for inspiring young people to get into Aerospace Engineering
can confirm that's what I'm doing
@@jacobknollinger4943 ditto!!
Dang, look at all these rocket surgeons in the comment section
Can also confirm,
Source: Am young and EA is probably 50% of the reason for my greatly accelerated interest in space and now I'm planning to go study space engineering.
yup, kids, any job in science and technology will beat standing on the corner with a cardboard sign!
Thanks. Very clear and interesting. I appreciate your efforts in educating yourself and then us on this topic.
same
stevenson720 this should be top comment no offense to WD-40 lol
Stainless Steel Is Underrated
Super, steel metallurgy has come a long way
69 likes
Ok, so first of all, you're awesome. I discovered your channel yesterday and I love it.
I just want to mention a couple material properties that you missed. The first is that steel has amazing fatigue characteristics. They might not come into play in this specific use case, but it makes a huge difference in re-usability.
The second is the reflectivity thing. On re-entry, most of your heat is coming from friction, not radiation. This means that the shiny, reflective surface (low emissivity) won't make a big difference in how much heat gets absorbed. This does mean though that the surface can't dissipate it's heat well using radiation, because having a low emissivity means that you don't absorb much radiant heat, but you also can't dissipate much radiant heat. All of that said, I'd love it if you proved me wrong.
Cheers ;)
"engineering is all about compromise" I wish I had more hands so I could give this 4 thumbs up. I'm going to save this little nugget for my next meeting!
Mother nature compromised, and that is why you only have two hands....
how'd the interview go?
When I worked for Lockheed at VAFB launching Agena Satelites, 5' diam 22 to 35' long, ( Over 350 ) using Thor IRBM boosters , Aluminum, then to Atlas ICBM ( Stainless steel ) , then Titans 1, 2 & 34D ( Aluminum)
We nicknamed the Atlas the Reynolds Wrap Balloon because it had to be kept pressurized or kept in a stretch sling in the gantry. As you saw in the video, not in the gantry and lost pressure it fell down. Stainless Steel is 3 times heavier than Aluminum but is 5 times as strong so you can design a tank that is both lighter and stronger. The skin was of various thickness as thin as 0.012 ". The Agena that was on the top of that atlas was returned to Sunnyvale to cleanup the scuffs and dents, run it back through Systems test, return it to the pad, get a new Atlas and launch it, Tough old bird worked fine.
Don WW II VET (Launch Systems Engineering Supervisor) Hey everyday Astronaut contact me , I have a lot of good stories and video for you.
Steel, aluminium and titanium have the same strength to weigh ratio but as steel is thinner it's worse when crushed because it just bend. So i think aluminium is better for most structures but when the rocket is inflated the walls are only subject to tensile stress so steel or aluminium doesn't matter...
Great story, Don, thanks for sharing. We definitely want to hear more. Everyone like this to the top so Tim can see it!
@@johntheux9238 Completely wrong... when you talk about a meters long piece of metal a few mm doesn't influence how easily it bends.
Then there is something as a sandwich panel to take care of that; and that's 2 pieces of metal with foam in between. The foam in between prevents the metal from getting crushed (as you call it).
There is no stainless steel, there are a lot of alloys to begin with, then each of the alloys can behave differently in different conditions, then they can harden, which again influences its properties. Then due to handling it can work harden while you transport and use it. The same is true for aluminium. Stainless steel is an alloy, it's a mix of metals, and it's mostly steel, that's why we call it stainless steel. Oh, and i almost forgot to mention nitrogen and carbon can be added by nitrocementation or other processes, further changing the properties.
---
The only honest answer you could give as a real aerospace engineer when speculating about a rocket is: _"this could be beneficial if"_ and _"there are many variables unknown to us, so we don't know."_ (I obviously mean an engineer that is not working at spacex, and hasn't signed an NDA)
sasja de vries. Just basic mechanics, two samples with the same tensile strength but one is two times thicker so the material will be twice as far from the center of rotation when it bend. Guess what, the thicker will be stronger when bended. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Couple_(mechanics)
Yes, please share your stories Don! I'll enjoy listening to them while working on the Nuclear Light Bulb that will get to Jupiter in months, not years.
Former ET, Naval Nuclear Power :>]
I heard this from an engineer recently: "every real expert for plastic uses steel"
For plastic? Wdym
@Maxwell Adams
We hear a lot about how many cool new materials are invented, a few years back everyone was hyping carbon fiber for example, lastly I heard much about graphen getting popular (which has even less industrial use), but you hear much less about how much we can actually do with steel. Then people are surprised that Elon uses good old stainless steel. Since all the stuff his innovative companies build seems so futuristic, we generally expect them to create and use some cool new carbon fiber or composit materials, but no. STEEL.
To those who works with and know materials that Was no real surprise, that's what I meant.
Steel in general doesn't have many special qualities, compared to some materials out there, but it has by far the widest range of application. Good for us, it also happens to be made of the most common elements
You know what they say, you can have it fast, cheap, or good quality. Pick Two.
elon : yes
Try to tell that to all of the Socialist leaning idiots in this country....
Sometimes it's pick one.
A few really good reasons:
* Strength at cryogenic temperatures
* Characteristics at high temperatures
* Ease of development
* Price
and you forgot...
* Doc Brown's Delorean time machine was made of brushed aluminium
The delorean is made of stainless steel not aluminium
wat
@@givejamesacall this guy gets it
Just to confirm...AS everyone knows, Stainless steel it was.
@@AdventistTruth I ruined my own joke. I meant to say brushed stainless steel but I must have written the comment while he had that chart up comparing stainless, carbon and aluminium and I have written "aluminium" instead. Doc Brown's Delorean was the first thing I thought of when he started talking about the reasons for using stainless. D'oh!
Also remember the falcon spaceship has one of the widest spaceships diameters. Then remember the volume of a sphere increases with the cube of the radius. Because the falcon spaceship is so large it will probably have the lowest ratio of stainless steel to fuel for a given tank size. This should actually make the tank relatively lighter.
that is correct ^^
in this case size really does matter haha
But the sheet is thicker ^^
?? First, if you JUST made the tank larger, it would have more volume to surface, of course. But that gas NOTHING TO DO WITH the material. It applies whether using steel, carbon, or plasticine. But at the same time, volume equals mass, and mass means forces on tge walls of the tank. That means THICKER WALLS. So a larger tank, in the end, means a LOT more mass to lift per kg of fuel.
@@markdoldon8852 I see what you're saying, and it does seem like my initial thought needs more processing. I do wonder what the final trade-offs would be after you do all the math.
@@markdoldon8852 What is relevant for the material requirement is not absolute force, but pressure (force/area). From the fluid pressure depth equation, the pressure is determined entirely by the density of the fluid, and the height/depth of the tank. Absolute mass or weight of the fluid DOES NOT MATTER.
What does change the situation a tiny bit is the curvature of the sides. Since the radius grow, the walls need to have a greater degree of flatness. The curvature does change the ability of the material to support pressure. I looked it up in an engineering handbook that thickness of material need to grow with power 1 with increasing radius, for unchanged pressure.
BUT this is probably a really high estimate, since it's meant as a guideline for plumbing, which also need to support it's own gravity - suspended vertical cylinder shape instead of horizontal cylinder shape.
Anyway, from geometry alone the mass of steel sheet grows with power 1 from radius (O = 2*Pi*r), while the volume for unchanged height grow with power 2 from radius (A = Pi*r^2). Of cause a change in height will increase both the volume and pressure - so thicker material is needed.
But the role of the growing radius in all of this is that the wall mass to fuel mass ratio is a worst unchanged (for pessimist estimate of curvature factor), but for a realist estimate it will improve with increased radius of the cylinder.
Btw. I have a master of science degree in physics.
His eyes have different colors! And hes good with space stuff... Hes definitely an alien.
i didnt even notice that..
Anyone see the movie "The man who feel to Earth."
His eyes look to have the same color to me. Plus, ever heard of Heterochromia? Look it up lol
There is just more light from the left.
A few comments here, after having a conversation with a metallurgist (who just so happens to be my father).
1. The cost of the stainless steel depends upon the alloy used (there are thousands - and they're all very very different), but you're still right - the carbon composite process and cost is prohibitively expensive and time-consuming.
2. Another interesting alloy that is what is used in stainless steel ball bearings, which are typically made from 440C (which is too brittle and can cause failure) were replaced with carburizing stainless steel 675 Stainless (a fascinating topic in itself that got addressed after the challenger disaster)
3. Testability for failure was left out. Carbon composites make detecting flaws (especially in a reusable rocket) a tricky business. When you are working with stainless, the techniques are well-established and test are not particularly expensive to run - which would be a consistent expectation before every new launch. It might be an interesting episode to talk about how certain materials can be tested for things like risk of failure - where small defects can be disastrous.
4. WD-40 will (probably) not be required, or anything like that. But we had a good laugh from the animation about the drones spraying the rocket down - that was pretty funny. 2 points for the space humor.
Steel has gotten way more modern, better benchmarks would be CPM S110V or Bohler M390. Theres many other "super steels" and I'm not sure what exactly they would be looking for, but those both make 440c and 675 look like rusted tinfoil. Mostly this has to do with modern manufacturing like particulate metallurgy and the advancement of metallurgy for specialist industries. The addition of elements like molybdenum, cobalt, niobium, and nitrogen have created a myriad of modern steels with different properties.
Most importantly, it gives Elon the opportunity to suggest that his critics, “kiss my shiny metal… spaceship!”
favorite reference
More like, "kiss my shiny, sweaty, metal....spaceship."
BUY NICKEL STOCKS, LOL
Yeah, as youre all kissing every union-busting CEO cock, that sure is the look to go :D
Love the JavaRush references
"Sweaty Shiny Starship" - Retro Sci Fi Writers.
Just like propulsive landing.
Heck yeAh
Maybe those guys in the 1950s were able to predict the future well after all
If I remember right, WD40 wasn't used on the Atlas rocket to prevent rust, since stainless steel is already resistant to rust. It was used to prevent a build up of ice formed from condensation on the outside of the rocket. WD stands for "Water Displacement", btw.
Elon is making the past happen.
@@MegaZsolti Back to the Future!!!
1950s Retro is GOOD THING! Duck Dodgers in the 24½th Century!
who is here after the SN8 launch?
Who is here after they tested SN9?
Who is here after the SN10 roll out?
@@johnysmoth4208 Hopefully by SN 15 they will not keep blowing up even after a semi successful landing.
60x cheaper material cost for the hull / chassi.
Dude. They might be able to afford TWO or THREE BFR's for the same price as ONE carbon composite BFR.
Hell yeah, i'd much rather have two/three chances of success, than one chance.
Elon constantly making intelligent changes to ensure the success of the mission.
well elon keeps contact with material sciences and manufacturies. so if they invent new materials or production methods, they know where to find their first customer for their product. also, producing steel used to build high tech space ships is a better marketing strategy than producing steel to make forks :)
Most importantly 3 BFR's could travel all at once and provide some degree of assist to each other should something go wrong in fligh or on mars.
Wow thanks man that really helps a lot to get a more clear picture of why stainless steel is planned to be used.
@ryan cairns Why not? The Atlas "flew" (that's not really the right term) through space, and it was made of stainless steel.
Coming back to this video after the first orbital launch attempt.. we got to witness how strong starship is… amazing
Rewatching this 2 and a half years later, after Tim's excellent 3 part interview with Elon at Starbase, August 2021...so much has changed, but not the core mission and it shows in all the right ways.
MuskCult
What I like best about the major shift from carbon fiber to stainless steel is that it's a reflection of Elon's and SpaceX's willingness to think way outside the box all along the project lifecycle. Most large engineering projects are averse to this agility, turning a blind eye to their discoveries along the way, and sticking to early bad approaches. SpaceX is willing to adopt new technologies without missing a beat - and that says more about the culture of the company than about anything else.
Being innovative by replicating solutions developed half a century ago, umm yep, okay. Get off your knees boy.
@@Veldtian1 Everything is a remix boy. Innovation is not invention.
@Angelo Stevens I think because the old tech is now mostly dismissed. Sort of like what Elon did with Teslas. Sure there was proven sound science in that area (albeit definitely more controversial), but no one was utilizing it. The same goes for this occasion. Old and underutilized, but still good; so let's remix it. This is like the space/ rocket version of electro-jazz (or w/e the kids are calling it these days): new and old, all at the same time; and better for it.
@Angelo Stevens Sorry for the wording. I meant the science behind the 'engine' in Tesla cars wasn't being utilized. Steel (in reference to use in outer space) is the 'underutilized' thing... As far as I knew, the engines in Teslas hadn't really been put in to actual effect anywhere. I was under the impression other electric cars used a similar but different engine... I'll look it up tho. ✌
Edit: the bad grammar was killing me, sorry
In this case, they are not afraid to use an old technology that works for their use case, which indicates they are goal and not image driven. A win win in my book.
Sometimes, things just continue to be the right thing. In our push towards progress, we have to be sensitive to that, otherwise we will pass up a perfectly good opportunity in favor of something more 'sexy' that, while really nifty, isn't the right thing and will end us up in a failure mode.
Learn from the Shuttle folks. Arbitrarily expensive methods are not necessarily the best solutions.
I was a guest at the rollout of the Roton. We got a fairly up close look at the test vehicle and it was definitely a 'novel' design. Actually 'bloody stupid' was what most people called it. But the buffet was good. BTW I never knew I had an ICMB mission critical component under my sink! This was a great episode Tim, one of your best.
I instinctively knew or inferred some of the reasons why SpaceX moved from carbon composite construction to stainless steel, but you made it all crystal clear. Thank you for this presentation. You did a fine job.
I found you yesterday, awesome videos with great, accessible, science!
Another advantage of steel is fatigue life. As long as you keep the material within the regime of elastic deformation and stay out of plastic deformation (ie do not exceed the yield strength), fatigue life is indefinite. This isn't the case with aluminium alloys - it's why airframes have an "hours limit". For expendable rockets this isn't really an issue, but for a reusable system it will become one.
That depends on the crystal structure of the steel. BCC steels have indefinite fatigue life, but FCC steels like 304 and 310 are susceptible to fatigue just like aluminium alloys.
This is because dislocations in FCC metals are more resistant to temperature, whereas dislocations in BCC metals are more resistant to oscillating stress.
Sweaty metal -- reminds me of the Polaris missile nozzle. My father in law was a rocket engineer on that project and showed me a nozzle he came up with which used a sintered first metal (titanium?) filled with a second metal (?don't remember what metal). The nozzle cooled itself by sweating off this second metal as it went providing sufficient cooling for its entire burn duration. He was also involved with rockets on some of the space missions. My Dad worked on projects for the Air Force, and was back at the Cape control room for a few of the Apollo launches . He brought back lots of cool materials for me -- I was really in love with this stuff. PS -- I ended up designing electronics - not as sexy - but it was more economically stable - LOL.
Nice vid, very entertaining and learned some stuff too, subbed, thanks.
Great video! Thanks for all of the well researched info. I can't wait to see the first blast off from Boca Chica since my front porch is only 5.3 miles away!
Metallurgy student here. At 6:20, just a small correction, cold forming by default is not done at "cryogenic temperatures", it is done near room temperature. The name comes by comparison to the temperatures used during other mechanical forming processes. Not sure about that Elon Musk's tweet about it...
Correct about the common definition, by default. But Tim (and Elon) was referring to a specific new cryogenic process, apparently a quite recent development.
Had meant to correct this. More than likely I am wrong and Rui is correct. What Elon said is a bit unclear - most likely meant that cold-formed (rom temperature) steel has properties that are good at cryogenic temperatures. But I can't say for sure.
j mcmann he’s already gone to space, so you’re clearly not up to date.
@j mcmann The falcon 9 was developed for around $400M and is reusable. You can say neither for any other rocket program that has ever gone into orbit.
@j mcmann seems to be all we got for now, what's your idea?
No market for 100 ton payloads??
You got that backwards buddy, when the current launch vehicle limit is a couple of tons then every satellite is a couple of tons by default.Create a delivery system for 100 ton payloads and people will design bigger better satellites to launch on it. No need to miniaturize anything anymore, no more exotic light alloys. It will be cheaper to build a heavy satellite and cheaper to launch on a re-usable rocket.
Yeah, I can imagine some future engineering discussions in startups: 'You say a rad-hardened board certified for 15 years costs how much? ...How about we just encase a few redundant standard PC boards under a meter of high density plastic, do we still fit on the shroud?'
Better yet for space stations.
ummm, Space debris?
@@guillaumehumbert4545 Cheap satellites have a relatively short lifespan, after which they deorbit and burn up in the atmosphere. Low-Earth orbit is self-cleaning.
Satellites are getting smaller and lighter every day. There could be a market, but it will be pretty small. Only real reason is Mars.
You make really good videos concerning space, rockets, and tech. You make it sound easy. Thanks.
Personally I have always enjoyed sweating. Thank you for yet another excellent presentation.
"Conan, what is best in life?"
"Stainless steel, balloon tanks, and WD-40!"
Don't forget the Lamentations of ULA.
That is good!
@@MarkLLawrence No, no, the lamentations of Russia!
SpaceX engineer: Alright Elon, cool idea with BFR, but there's no way we can belly flop this thing without cooking everyone.
Elon: What if we just set the belly on fire?
Added bonus: If it is used in an oxygen-rich atmosphere, the fuel would actually combust and expand, which would give a small amount of extra "drag".
With some smart mechanisms on the fuel flow this could even be employed as RCS on re-entry to provide attitude control.
No, elon went cooking....that gives me an idea, cooking pots...how about stainless steel
@@technotoaster you mean ,,ah...this is exactly how that happaned .th-cam.com/video/XpE8e6AYmfo/w-d-xo.html
@@Stoney3K seriously though, re-entry temperatures are so hot that "combustion" kinda stops being a thing, as everything's a plasma. By the time it stops being that, it's well behind the rocket, in the re-entry trail.
@@kargaroc386 That means it doesn't react with the oxygen in the air during re-entry? After all, a flame is a plasma just as a re-entry shockwave would be.
The contribution it would have to additional drag would probably be questionable though.
Hey Tim! I'm wondering as we're heading to the first almost-orbital launch of a Starship combo. Is the sweating stuff still planned? And do we know if they will use the refregerative cooling for this test (sn20) or later and just stick to the tiles for this first try?
I'm glad to hear of a rentry shield method distinctly different than space-shuttle tiles.
Don't often leave comments but this video is amazing. Do more rockets physics please!
And not to mention, it looks absolutely awesome.
That is highly subjective. I think it looks hilariously stupid. But if it works I am all for it :D
@Guero Rodriguez replied to the wrong comment? 😅
Shiny '50s rocketship, hell yeah.
The 2016 and 2017 versions looked ALOT better.
The TNTsheep It should ,you helped pay for it!
Good detail. Thanks for information/update.
Thanks Tim for your awesome job, you not just bringing the space to us, but bringing knowledge and a completely new perspective of what space challenge is today. Well done mate!!
100 tons to LEO might sound crazy now but there's a well known principle of "you build it and they'll come"
There's not much market for it now but there wasn't a market for digitally distributed media before someone made that an option either.
So shiny and so chrome. They need to shout at take off "Witness Me!"
Amos Suttelle WITNESS ME! (Actually Furiosa would be a cool rocket name too...)
Onto Walhalla!
WITNESS!
Excellent videos. This is one of the best channels to follow if you want to understand rocket science and related stuff...
Young man you have a talent for explaining things to us laymen! Keep up the good work!!!!!!!!
Best video you did so far!
I love it and woul'd utterly enjoy more content like this. Luckily there is much going on right now in the space sector so there is tons to learn and talk about.
Has he done a video about Stratolaunch yet?
I actually considered content on this channel not worth my time, because alot of "101 basic stuff", and repeat what i already know from other sources just reasoned more easy. But this actually gave more of the technology part described for dummies. But still enjoyable for giving insight in the technology they are going to use/technological challenges they had to overcome.i'm not a technoguru, but he also does target the average joe so i don't blame him. Thanks for the update.
I'm so glad he toned down the shrill, hyper, style he used to do. Still was expecting a very basic overvew, instead got a well researched and well reasoned analysis. Good job.
Agree. He is likeable so I'm subbed 😃
True and not many years ago it was just dead. Now it's full on and growing!
What an incredible video. This has to be your best yet. Great presentation of your extensive research, great reasoning behind everything you armchair engineered. Really impressive stuff and most of all super entertaining!
rausch101 well said, I agree
100% agree. I greatly appreciate the effort.
Lol, except Scott Manley has already did this and probably where he got his ideas.
@@JJayzX Scott is a great TH-camr who offers a somewhat more technical perspective. Tim is the everyday astronaut because he wants to explain it to everyday people. So what if Tim watched Scott's video? He wants to make it easy for people with 0 technical background to understand. He wants to introduce space to a new audience.
@@mrcon012 I have a technical background, I actually used to be an astronautical engineer, and I like them both.
Great presentation! Thank you!
Really enjoyable video. Not only well researched and informative, but I really like the delivery. You're the kind of host I really like! Thanks.
OMG the WD-40 Drone graphic was precious!
If I remember right, WD40 wasn't used on the Atlas rocket to prevent rust, since stainless steel is already resistant to rust. It was used to prevent a build up of ice formed from condensation on the outside of the rocket, so the application of drones for the application still applies! ...WD stands for "Water Displacement", btw.
@@sparky6086 yes water disp. formulation 40. the animation is still precious.
@@matthewschrader4494 It wasn't a graphic it was real..... Ok I have a good imagination.
@@matthewschrader4494 I agree!
You know what’s really cool? My physics teacher was the pilot on some of the Space Shuttle missions. It’s incredibly inspiring to learn from someone who was in space!
Luck-eee!
7:40 mad lad actually had no glove
Actually it's 2000°c yet that metallic cube won't even hurt
They testest other people
No burn
Its cold like a ice cream
As the guide says in that video, only the corners of the cube are actually cool. I assume touching the flat glowing sides would burn the hand.
Look closer and hes holding it on the darker side. Who would dare to hold a material that's almost as hot as the sun's surface
The research done here, wow!!! Well deserving of my attention.
I just showed your video to my physics class. That's why I love your channel. You keep it clean so I can show it to students. Also... Elon replied to one of my tweets which was a reply to one of your tweets. I can die happy now.
Tory Bruno replied to one of my Reddit comments. I think that's as close as I'll ever get
@@SuperSMT I showed Tory some KSP creations and he loved them.
Good job, Tim. Interesting, clear concise and informative. Just as always. Thank you.
Thanks for the hard work to do this video.
Props to you for using International Units during your video explanation.
Fun side note: the Atlas Mercury rocket at the U.S. Space and Rocket Center has an air compressor that keeps it pressurized.
The comment about the space shuttle tiles soaking up a lot of heat and radiating it later (around 7:50 in the video) is not correct. Those tiles had an extremely high insulation value. That is the reason why they can be picked up with bear fingers. The material itself has actually taken on a very low amount of energy. When touched by fingers, the energy in the area of the contact points is so low that the skin quickly absorbs it. As the same time, the heat in the rest of the tile (which is still not very much) is so badly conducted, that it hardly flows to the contact areas. Hence: no burns.
Great explanation to a very misunderstood concept. I searched for this comment and am glad I've found it.
They could even be picked up by human fingers. ;)
@@IAmTheRealBill : Video showing that in action when tiles first introduced.
Ummmmmm, bears don't have fingers. 🙄
oh i think they actually do absorb alot of heat(extreme high temperatures for a long time). They do absorb less heat than stuff like metals though.
The reason why fingers aren't burnt when touching the tiles(the tiles being put in an oven until they were glowing hot, pretty sure those tiles absorbed alot of heat then) is because the tiles are really poor conductors of heat, meaning that heat is conducted from the tiles to your hand very slowly, and so your hand doesn't heat up as fast. For example, putting your hands on a piece of metal and a piece of wood, heat from your hand is conducted away into the metal faster than into the wood, which is why you feel metal is cold, wood is room temperature. Both at the same temperature, but one feels cold. Do that for the reverse, the tiles feel alright not because they have little heat but because they conduct heat slowly to your hand.
So the tiles do absorb alot of heat, just that they are poor conductors of heat that they conduct the heat slowly to your fingers.
*literally anything"
Tim Dodd: "And I know this sounds crazy and like it could never actually work, but this isn't a new idea at all"
Another excellent video. You should be fronting some major TV channel's science or space programme. Thanks for all your hard work.
Not sure if mentioned in the comments already, but another big advantage of stainless steel is scalability.
Building a 9 m carbon fibre rocket requires big mandrels and and curing techniques that are technically risky.. Going to a larger diameter is capex intensive (new mandrel, more technical risk with curing/delaminations, etc.)
Building a 9 m SS rocket is just welding stuff together..
If they can make it work, and the raptor is reliable enough, there's very little holding them back from making a far bigger rocket out of SS.
12 m? 15 m? 20 m? Same manufacturing process, more engines/plumbing, and of course more payload.
I like how you stretched the photo of Starhopper to make it 16:9 : )
Hi, Tim.
There's one thing that's been bugging me since the steel starship was presented, with the support that steel resists better to heating and thus needs less protection (less weight in heat-shield)...
It's that, even though a steel frame resists better to the heating, it will still heat up more, specially if there is not as much heat-shielding. What about all that is inside this baking-hot spaceship, like instruments, life-support systems and ultimately, crew and passengers?
In a spacecraft made of aluminium or carbon composites, the thermal ceiling will be at about 300°C, and needs a sturdy heatshield, to avoid damaging the frame and the interior. Well, if a steel frame allows the thermal ceiling to be raised to 800°C or more, that's still much below the plasma-creating temperatures of the surrounding air during re-entry - so, a heat-shield should still be necessary.
This begs two questions: 1st - won't methane cooling of the heatshield heat up the methane to unstable temperatures and expand it drastically due to heating, thus loosing it's thermal conductivity and cooling ability of the heat-shield?
2nd - won't it be difficult to manage overheating of the frame if it's allowed to heat up to 800 degrees or more, mainly because the interior must always be at or below 25 degrees?
Thanks in advance for your time.
Great video! Learned a few things here.
Comment on "There's no need for 100 tons to low earth orbit." (paraphrase, about 14:30).
Engineers don't design the size of bridges by counting the people swimming the river.
One reason ISS kept getting redesigned smaller and smaller is cuz Congress (or the WH) mandated all parts would go up on the shuttle. First plan was to launch a few really big pieces on disposables ("disintegrating totem poles"), then do all the rest with shuttle. That wasn't acceptable to the political leadership at the time.
If the capacity is there, it will be used.
@Aquarium Fuzz - I couldn't hope to put it better myself! I also say, that weight is one matter, SIZE is other. Booster of this size should be able to deploy telescopes with 8m unitary mirror, like ATLAST concept. Moreover, 100t to LEO is far less when GEO, Moon, Mars are concerned.
@@piotrd.4850 - it's kind of ironic that one of the most limited resources in space is ... space. An enclosed volume that can be used as a shirt-sleeve environment is hard to come by, because it most either be aerodynamic for launch thru atmosphere, or expandable once on orbit (see SpaceHab). Cavernous multi-room quarters for spacecraft personal (See Star Trek for examples) is such a laughable hollywood concept.
Great content Tim - I think, as a credit to your content, the people who complain about “too much Kerbal” simply wish every video of yours was like this - although of course it’s impossible to churn it out all the time ;) they should just filter themselves. This is epic stuff though - everyone agrees.
i really like your videos tim! Congrats on what you have achieve right now! More achievements to come!
Well written and researched. Thanx
Elon seems to have implied funding BFR is something of a challenge. I imagine being able to make it happen for cheaper sooner is very good in their books when R&D for cutting edge rockets tend to be very prone to ballooning costs and timelines. SpaceX has always been about financial viability from their start, this is exactly their way of doing things. Don't do what is the craziest and highest tech, do what balances all the equations, including the money.
One word. Ares. Spend billions to make it only to scrap it.
Sucks that the human species is held back from great achievement by money. Wish i could give them an unlimited budget.
yes, old tech is constantly being "replaced" by new tech, but old tech patiently waits to be "re-discovered", especially when it's only 1/60 the cost!!
@@TheFailedmessiah A second word (well, acronym). SLS. At this point there's no chance we'll get more than about two launches out of it, for minimum $40 billion.
Thanks for another great video. It seems odd that anyone would criticize SpaceX for solving the problems that it needs to in order to make this rocket a reality. When the first one orbits the moon or lands on Mars will that accomplishment be lessened by what it is made out of? I’m on team make it happen. Build it out of adobe if that is what it takes.
At first I read this as "adobo" as in "adobo peppers," and thought that was odd, and then realized it said "adobe," but then I thought about Starship being built out of Adobe Photoshop, and then I finally realized what you meant.
I need an adobe ship in my life.
@@fr3nchy226 I was going to share the SNL Adobe car commercial with you in reply but I could not find it :-)
When or if?
@@aristeidislykas7163 SpaceX has better odds getting that rocket into space than I do :-)
Adobe: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe ?
Hey Tim...an update from the future...there was a spectacular test and you went half insane.
Amazing the progress that's been made in 1.5 years. Really astonishing.
Let's not forget the ease of repair! You have to consider the fact that these ships are going to fly to some rough and remote places. If carbon composites break or create a fracture, it's very difficult, if not impossible, to repair. With stainless steel, however, you can just weld it on the spot.
On the other hand, composites have a structure that resists propagation of cracks, whereas metals tend to do the Comet thing: rip like crazy. I'm not sure what they intend to do about this sort of thing with stainless...
Boy, wouldn't it have been nice to do that on Columbia.
@@AttilaAsztalos Metals typically used in aerospace like aluminium have bad fatigue characteristics you are right, and eventually just fall apart as cracks propagate through their structure. Steel is much more better in this respect and has a fatigue limit of about 1/3 of its nominal strength if remember my old engineering course correctly... That means that after a lot of load cycles the actual strength of steel tends to 1/3 of its original value. So if you design your structure to withstand at least 3 times the expected load you should be safe from fatigue issues, albeit with a weight penalty...
I love how SpaceX is giving the finger to everybody insisting on the most fancy and complex technology. It is good to see someone go opposite direction of the Space Shuttle craziness. As a fan of Soviet space stuff, I cannot help but see some similarity in philosophy. Both seem to value simple cheap solutions over fancy and expensive stuff.
Like the Soviets, SpaceX strapped on lots of small rocket engines, 27 of them on the Falcon Heavy. People used to say for years, that is why the Soviet N1 moon rocket could never fly. SpaceX proved the naysayers wrong and showed lots of small rocket engines work.
The Merlin Engine was basically a simple 1960s rocket engine. I like the novelty of taking an old design and using modern manufacturing techniques. It is sort of like designing a new car using T-ford technology, but building it using CAD/CAM, 3D printers and modern material science.
Now we got steel! I love it! People have been too into technology for the sake of technology, and forgotten about economics and practicality. Following SpaceX and reading up on Soviet space exploration is partly why I got into reading low tech magazine: www.lowtechmagazine.com . Highly recommend to anybody more curious about using smart low tech solutions to many everyday problems.
well its not that much of a middle finger if you have sunk a lot of money in the fancy stuff previously(composite at space x or the aluminuim chassis in the model 3 XD ). but yeah good to see. ill be looking up the magazine as well.
The tooling alone for a composite ship would cost them close to a billion dollars US and that doesn't include the cost of the materials for the ship itself nor does it include the cost of the autoclaves that would need to be larger in diameter than the parts getting cured. Big money burned quickly.
Its still always a good idea to research and explore these technologies. That is how they become cheaper. No hate towards SpaceX here though, I think this is one of the best idea's they've ever had!
Just don't forget that they still have and the stuff of/in the old command center (y'know, that stuff from the 60's/70's) because it's not as error prone as the new stuff.
Same with some "failsafe" Nuclear launch sites from the NAR.
@@Baconator119 Problem is Boeing and Airbus have most of the worlds production prepreg carbon fiber tied up building regular old plastic airplanes. The costs have come way down from when I first started building it where $150 to $190 US per 1 sheet 1' x 1', it cost us millions to build 1 tool for making carbon fiber aerospace parts.
Dude, you are amazing. The research and production value on these videos is just off the charts. TH-cam should give you stock in the company. Many, many thanks. I watch these with my son and they inspire.
Thanks for making everything understandable but not dumbed down , excellent.
Always been a little proud. My uncle actually helped design those ceramic heat tiles on the space shuttle. Vital to reentry and keeping our men and women safe while landing. :P
It would actually be pretty space-x ish idea to spray Wd-40 with drones....
Come again now?
That's what I thought I was thinking
"Hmm he probably would"
WD on everything! I now have it on my toast!
Best rocket film I've ever watched in my life, keep up the amazing work.
Its called a "weeping wing" on the DA42 light twin. And it lets small aircraft finally gain anti ice capability at a low cost. Normally light aircraft pilots had not ice protection at all. So it seems to be a very functional very affordable plan.
About the same payload capacity as the Saturn-V is a good number. Energia is close, and the Shuttle stack does this too, but less of it is useful payload.
There are innumerable potential near-term applications for ~100 tons to LEO. And it's smaller than we should be pushing rocket design for. Sea Dragon was to be simple steel 2STO for ~500 tons to LEO.
There were lots of post-Apollo "Nova" and some during the studies about SSPS systems for which ~300 tons might have been the starting point for 1 or 2 STO designs.
Rockwell Star-Raker SSTO plane was for 100 tons, in a standard cargoplane or flat-bed sized load arrangement.
There were never any severe technical problems about these. As with the Saturn-V and NERVA engines, they represented an embarrassing excess of capability to an agency and government which had no ambitions post-Apollo at all.
That's not the way space must always be treated. Musk is proving that to be so. We've been artificially held back despite ample public support for a real space program. We're used to thinking small and having no lasting funding. We were made used to treating space like that.
SpaceX's leaky heat shield isn't a new idea and it's actually quite well proven. The SR71 Blackbird used to leak fuel out of it's leading edges to cool the aircraft at hyper sonic speeds. For a long time they claimed when asked about the leaking that it was an unintentional effect of how the plane was built and that the leaking would stop when the aircraft heated up in flight, but it has since come out this was a lie. In truth the fuel didn't ever stop leaking, it was actually an active heat shield that worked pretty much that same as SpaceX is planning for Starship.
THX 1138 not quite, it routed the fuel through the leading edges wing before sending it to the engine. It was also very special, and very expensive fuel. But it did actively cool the leading edges.
It famously did leak on takeoff, but that’s because it needed to heat up to seal the tanks.
Nonsense. Yes, the SR71 leaked constantly. That was not intentional. If they wanted just a leaking fluid, theyd have used something other than highly flammable jet fuel
@@markdoldon8852 JP7 fuel was specifically formulated for the SR-71 and was most certainly not highly flammable! That's why they needed to use TEB to start the engines!
It was the fuel tanks that leaked. Not the lines. It was because the aircraft needed to expand to seal them. They would take off with a light load of fuel, heat the aircraft up then refuel inflight to fill the tanks.
I know the aircraft grew in flight. You could boil a kettle on the tire after the flight. It was made out of titanium. (Which I think the CIA bought through a shell company) it was designed in the late 50’s. And it was really boring to fly. That’s why the pilots called it “the sled”
Just found your channel, love it.
Many people tend to think that "new materials = better, cheaper, hightech", but old materials aren't outdated as they may think. The wood, bamboo, steel and even bones keep getting new hightech uses where they literally outmatch the new materials. :)