Pilot: "PAN-PAN PAN-PAN PAN-PAN" Ground: "Are you declaring an emergency?" ... Well.. that is... what he just did. By using an INTERNATIONAL standardized phrase for emergency. A phrase that even FAA in the US have in their rules book, that US controller should follow! Sometimes, i just... no... **big sigh**
@@lebojay Both fall into the emergency umbrella. To keep it short: Mayday: Lifethreatening. PAN-PAN: Not (yet) lifethreatening Example: One engine out on a multi engine airplane is PAN-PAN. Fire in an engine is Mayday. Fire goes out? Then can be lowered to PAN-PAN if everything seems okay, now just an engine that is out. Who decides? Staff in the air. Or on the ground. Pilot could say PAN-PAN and ground can treat it as Mayday. As an example. Also used at sea. In The same manner. Engine out? PAN-PAN. Drifting towards cliffs? Mayday. From FAA: The initial communication, and if considered necessary, any subsequent transmissions by an aircraft in distress should begin with the signal MAYDAY, preferably repeated three times. The signal PAN-PAN should be used in the same manner for an urgency condition.
This bothers me with ATC Comm....he already said he wanted a specific runway...then ATC calling up many times to ask for other runways....he already responded and said what he wanted....leave them alone!!!!!!!
Listened to the entire transmission & it occurred to me how professional & POLITE the multiple interactions between pilots & ground coms were! Also, remembering how often that’s true! I guess after listening to House & Senate hearings, plus #45 over the past week, no wonder I’m surprised! TY for showing how professionals do it!
I dont understand Why the tower did not let them the info , that the ILS is not radiating and that it's going to be visual on 31L in the time before they decited to land on it...
If they were running the checklist and not immediately diverting then the fumes event must have been over or identified and contained and they’re just going through the motions of tying up lose ends. If there was an active smoke/fire/fumes event then it would have turned out rather differently in the way they interacted with ATC and the speed of the return.
Hard to tell if they were on oxygen at all times during the fumes event. Obvious at least one pilot on the mask. Would like to know if it was identified as a "dirty sock" smell/odor. If so, that is oil contamination of the bleed air supply. Any other sources for this event?
Just can't stand the extended conversations from US controllers when pilots are clearly working on issues. Leave them alone to sort it out for goodness sake. They'll call you when ready.
The controllers are busy, but they have to pay special attention to an aircraft in a pan -pan...OR emergency I think sometimes they might get a bit over zelest ...yes the B.A pilots are the best in the world at communications, I live their call sign" SPEEDBIRD"..CLASSIC.....all Britain needs now is a new concorde...so us Britain can be proud of what we have done and achieved with the French.. the Concorde...unfortunately when I were younger I saved as much money as I could..the air fare was back then 10,000 quid...was a he'll of alot of money..but instead I bought my house....
The timing of ATC saying to commence dumping (3:58) & getting that read back, ATC warning everyone of dumping (4:35), and Speedbird saying dumping commenced (6:13) didn't seem right... did they mean dumping complete that time? No, because 7:33 they told Boston Center they'd let them know when dumping complete & a different pilot said it was complete now at 7:54. The ATC warning to everyone covered that wide of an area?
After the pilot declared “pan pan” he also stated “nonimmeadate need to go back”. Typically if you have an emergency you want to land quickly. I can understand how ATC was a bit confused.
Well you want to, but you also need to cut weight to avoid runway braking catastrophe with a trans-Atlantic level of fuel on board, so ATC shouldn't be confused.
@@JimmyDoresHairDye The "no immediate need to return" was more to clarify to atc what kind of emergency it was. Would he have not said it, and as confused as atc was about whether he declared an emergency (which he def should not have been), he would have probably been treated like a mayday with need to directly go in - since it was a fumes incident, and you don't joke around with that.
Since the video is sped up and considering atc said northwest-bound, it is quite likely that the plane had already turned towards kennedy before atc informed other traffic. Also, the first transmission was atc allowing BA to dump, thereafter they were basically considered to be dumping by the controller. Kind off like a "descent to reach point at FL" would block off a reasonable amount of space below the plane, to consider it descending sooner or later.
ATC forgot to ask whether the pilots are robots or human, and a skill-testing question of appropriate complexity. Honestly, stop interrupting busy pilots.
All I can find: Pilots of British Airways flights have reported smelling an “organic cheesy, oily” odour with a metallic taste on the flight deck shortly after take-off that got worse above 2000ft on 5 separate flights. The aircraft returned to service about 23 hours after landing back at JFK, performing the next day's flight BA-176 but the source hasn't been found.
US controllers not knowing what a pan-pan is. It isn’t an emergency but can be upgraded to one. It means they have a problem but the plane’s ability to be controlled isn’t affected.
Emergency aircraft requests ILS 22, next controller “I have all your information, oh by the way how about 31” then it’s not the 31 they asked for, then they can’t have ILS, just the visual… not sure why they bothered with the PAN PAN - oh, sorry to all the types elsewhere in comments who can’t abide standard terms - bothered with ‘declaring an emergency’
Pilots have a similar experience after Taco Tuesday: Pilot 1: ”We have a fumes event!” Pilot 2: "My bad! Declaring a bathroom emergency. I'll be right back... Commence dumping!!!"
Listening to these for years, when a pilot asks to hold or run checklists and is obviously working a problem, ATC invariably asks questions they are not yet prepared to answer , even "do you need anything else?" but more annoyingly "Will you be returning?", "and if so will you be dumping fuel"? The pilots are obviously busy figuring out the situation and will call back when they know anything or have a request. Why can't ATC just respond something like "Request approved to stop climb. We're standing by."?
The good part is that the pilots can just not answer if they are overloaded. Aviate-Navigate-Communicate. This happens sometimes. No answer unless it is important info.
@@RLTtizME It's not a large effect but it can be distracting at a critical moment. By your glib demand for how it has affected any emergency (which I find argumentative and immature), neither could I name such a case if the controller went into a chorus of Old Macdonald had a Farm, but I could conclude it to be unnecessary and unprofessional nonetheless.
@@Xanthopteryx Of course. Very normal and very common. A good point. Not a big deal. But it does require an amount of mental attention to listen and even to respond with "stand by" or sometimes it's a longer response. The pilot can choose not to respond, but they can't choose not to listen (turning the radio off would be irresponsible).
@@CheatOnlyDeath Glib. Immature. Argumentative. (I would submit that the comments section is designed for argumentative discourse. Where have you been? LOL. ) You have no opposing argument so you have to whip up a nasty presumptuous response on a personal level. Cheap shots. You lose points for that. Emotional responses are always lame. Rethink your position and repost...otherwise...we are ignoring you.
The checklist says to land at nearest suitable airport, so that’s what you do. Absolute worst case scenario is to ditch. However, the pilots don’t declare an emergency immediately and say that they’ve had a fumes event, so it suggests the event is over. They’re just returning to JFK as a precaution. If this happened mid-ocean then they’d likely just continue to LHR.
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BA always good on the radio
Charming
Foxtrot Uniform Mike Echo Sierra 💨
Always amazing how calm pilots are during emergencies. BRAVO
Civil and polite = brevity! ^5
Nice, great job on recreating the events with real audio.
After listening to this, and other BA ATC recordings, I can only presume that they ALL have the same voice.
Or it’s the same chap that is exceptionally unlucky…the fleet trouble magnet
@@edwardfrench9925 Jessica Fletcher syndrome
😂😂😂
I agree as a British person
Pilot: "PAN-PAN PAN-PAN PAN-PAN"
Ground: "Are you declaring an emergency?"
...
Well.. that is... what he just did. By using an INTERNATIONAL standardized phrase for emergency. A phrase that even FAA in the US have in their rules book, that US controller should follow!
Sometimes, i just... no... **big sigh**
PAN-PAN isn’t an emergency. That’s what MAYDAY is for. PAN means no assistance required.
I think..?
@@lebojay Both fall into the emergency umbrella. To keep it short:
Mayday: Lifethreatening.
PAN-PAN: Not (yet) lifethreatening
Example: One engine out on a multi engine airplane is PAN-PAN. Fire in an engine is Mayday. Fire goes out? Then can be lowered to PAN-PAN if everything seems okay, now just an engine that is out.
Who decides?
Staff in the air. Or on the ground. Pilot could say PAN-PAN and ground can treat it as Mayday. As an example.
Also used at sea. In The same manner.
Engine out? PAN-PAN. Drifting towards cliffs? Mayday.
From FAA:
The initial communication, and if considered necessary, any subsequent transmissions by an aircraft in distress should begin with the signal MAYDAY, preferably repeated three times. The signal PAN-PAN should be used in the same manner for an urgency condition.
Pan pan is one below an emergency.
Nonsense words are out. Say what you mean and mean what you say. Emergency here in America. Keep your Pan Pans and Maydays EuroBrits.
Lol the troll has arrived
This bothers me with ATC Comm....he already said he wanted a specific runway...then ATC calling up many times to ask for other runways....he already responded and said what he wanted....leave them alone!!!!!!!
Listened to the entire transmission & it occurred to me how professional & POLITE the multiple interactions between pilots & ground coms were! Also, remembering how often that’s true! I guess after listening to House & Senate hearings, plus #45 over the past week, no wonder I’m surprised! TY for showing how professionals do it!
I dont understand Why the tower did not let them the info , that the ILS is not radiating and that it's going to be visual on 31L in the time before they decited to land on it...
If they were running the checklist and not immediately diverting then the fumes event must have been over or identified and contained and they’re just going through the motions of tying up lose ends. If there was an active smoke/fire/fumes event then it would have turned out rather differently in the way they interacted with ATC and the speed of the return.
Hard to tell if they were on oxygen at all times during the fumes event. Obvious at least one pilot on the mask. Would like to know if it was identified as a "dirty sock" smell/odor. If so, that is oil contamination of the bleed air supply. Any other sources for this event?
Just can't stand the extended conversations from US controllers when pilots are clearly working on issues. Leave them alone to sort it out for goodness sake. They'll call you when ready.
You know the silence is trimmed out right?
Hi. We're you able to find June 10th UA1544 MSP to Denver engine shutdown
The controllers are busy, but they have to pay special attention to an aircraft in a pan -pan...OR emergency I think sometimes they might get a bit over zelest ...yes the B.A pilots are the best in the world at communications, I live their call sign" SPEEDBIRD"..CLASSIC.....all Britain needs now is a new concorde...so us Britain can be proud of what we have done and achieved with the French.. the Concorde...unfortunately when I were younger I saved as much money as I could..the air fare was back then 10,000 quid...was a he'll of alot of money..but instead I bought my house....
The timing of ATC saying to commence dumping (3:58) & getting that read back, ATC warning everyone of dumping (4:35), and Speedbird saying dumping commenced (6:13) didn't seem right... did they mean dumping complete that time? No, because 7:33 they told Boston Center they'd let them know when dumping complete & a different pilot said it was complete now at 7:54.
The ATC warning to everyone covered that wide of an area?
After the pilot declared “pan pan” he also stated “nonimmeadate need to go back”. Typically if you have an emergency you want to land quickly. I can understand how ATC was a bit confused.
Well you want to, but you also need to cut weight to avoid runway braking catastrophe with a trans-Atlantic level of fuel on board, so ATC shouldn't be confused.
@@JimmyDoresHairDye The "no immediate need to return" was more to clarify to atc what kind of emergency it was. Would he have not said it, and as confused as atc was about whether he declared an emergency (which he def should not have been), he would have probably been treated like a mayday with need to directly go in - since it was a fumes incident, and you don't joke around with that.
Since the video is sped up and considering atc said northwest-bound, it is quite likely that the plane had already turned towards kennedy before atc informed other traffic. Also, the first transmission was atc allowing BA to dump, thereafter they were basically considered to be dumping by the controller. Kind off like a "descent to reach point at FL" would block off a reasonable amount of space below the plane, to consider it descending sooner or later.
One pilot is on O2 mask from the sounds of transmission.
Sounded like Center's first emergency maybe.
ATC forgot to ask whether the pilots are robots or human, and a skill-testing question of appropriate complexity. Honestly, stop interrupting busy pilots.
Any word on what the cause of the fumes was?
All I can find:
Pilots of British Airways flights have reported smelling an “organic cheesy, oily” odour with a metallic taste on the flight deck shortly after take-off that got worse above 2000ft on 5 separate flights.
The aircraft returned to service about 23 hours after landing back at JFK, performing the next day's flight BA-176 but the source hasn't been found.
And let's add that to the list...
👍
Can anyone answer if they were going to jfk why they switched to Boston control? Ty
Airspace structure. They were passing area of responsibility of Boston control.
I feel like I've heard this pilot before... Was he the one that got into a verbal altercation with a controller once about speed on an approach?
They all sound the same!
No
@@saxmanb777 Was it you?
@@RLTtizME only with my fine speed bird accent.
@@saxmanb777 Pip Pip..
US controllers not knowing what a pan-pan is. It isn’t an emergency but can be upgraded to one. It means they have a problem but the plane’s ability to be controlled isn’t affected.
I thought an emergency aircraft could have any runway it wanted?
Maybe 31R was closed or something. In that case even an emergency aircraft wouldn't get it
Emergency aircraft requests ILS 22, next controller “I have all your information, oh by the way how about 31” then it’s not the 31 they asked for, then they can’t have ILS, just the visual… not sure why they bothered with the PAN PAN - oh, sorry to all the types elsewhere in comments who can’t abide standard terms - bothered with ‘declaring an emergency’
That ILS SNAFU really got me too. Like ... what??? Sent them an inop ILS???
BA: PAN PAN PAN PAN PAN PAN
american atc: aRe YoU dEcLaRiNg An EmErGeNcY?!?!?!
I hope y'all are "radiating" after watching this video.
Someone must have had a beef and bean chimi changa for lunch. 😆
I LOVE PAN-PANS!!!! MORE PAN-PANS!!!!!
👍
I love pans too! Frying pans, baking pans, gold pans...
Hell no. Nonsense words are just embarrassing.
Yes, like the word tiz
@@tillycatcat Tiz tiz tiz.....emergency.
American “pilots” should take notes and learn that this is how emergencies are handled
Pilots have a similar experience after Taco Tuesday:
Pilot 1: ”We have a fumes event!”
Pilot 2: "My bad! Declaring a bathroom emergency. I'll be right back... Commence dumping!!!"
Dumping aviation fuel on fish. 🤬
1:38
ATC IS SO ANNOYING.. THEY RUNNING THE CHECKLIST
Listening to these for years, when a pilot asks to hold or run checklists and is obviously working a problem, ATC invariably asks questions they are not yet prepared to answer , even "do you need anything else?" but more annoyingly "Will you be returning?", "and if so will you be dumping fuel"?
The pilots are obviously busy figuring out the situation and will call back when they know anything or have a request. Why can't ATC just respond something like "Request approved to stop climb. We're standing by."?
The good part is that the pilots can just not answer if they are overloaded. Aviate-Navigate-Communicate.
This happens sometimes. No answer unless it is important info.
Tell us how this has affected any emergency event. You can't. Everything is just fine. If the pilot doesn't want to talk..he will just say stand by.
@@RLTtizME It's not a large effect but it can be distracting at a critical moment. By your glib demand for how it has affected any emergency (which I find argumentative and immature), neither could I name such a case if the controller went into a chorus of Old Macdonald had a Farm, but I could conclude it to be unnecessary and unprofessional nonetheless.
@@Xanthopteryx Of course. Very normal and very common. A good point. Not a big deal. But it does require an amount of mental attention to listen and even to respond with "stand by" or sometimes it's a longer response. The pilot can choose not to respond, but they can't choose not to listen (turning the radio off would be irresponsible).
@@CheatOnlyDeath Glib. Immature. Argumentative. (I would submit that the comments section is designed for argumentative discourse. Where have you been? LOL. ) You have no opposing argument so you have to whip up a nasty presumptuous response on a personal level. Cheap shots. You lose points for that. Emotional responses are always lame. Rethink your position and repost...otherwise...we are ignoring you.
Now I have a question… What happens if this happened in the middle of the Atlantic then what??
The checklist says to land at nearest suitable airport, so that’s what you do. Absolute worst case scenario is to ditch. However, the pilots don’t declare an emergency immediately and say that they’ve had a fumes event, so it suggests the event is over. They’re just returning to JFK as a precaution. If this happened mid-ocean then they’d likely just continue to LHR.
Why is it always Kennedy
Because its such a busy airport jfk...and very tight nit area it is,..the volume of air traffic is emense ,so the odds of a situation increases..