Between what my parents had taught me and what I had learned by reading a variety of sources including much of the Hebrew Bible, the Gospels and the Epistles, my understanding in 1959 was that the church consists of people who are learning to trust the Lord. The church may be organized (I thought and still think the church should be organized) but any organization of the church (including the organization of a local congregation) is a tool of the church. No organization IS the church. It was the perception that an organization is the church that led the majority of Hebrews to reject both Jesus as the Messiah and the teachings of Jesus. It was the perception that an organization is the church that led the majority of the adherents of the Roman Church to reject protestant reforms in the sixteenth century. It was the perception that an organization is the church that led the majority of Anglicans to reject methodist reforms in the eighteenth century. Etc. If it were true that a person is not a “real” Christian who is not a member of a local congregation, a person could become a Christian by joining a local congregation. When I was a boy, my parents were members of a local congregation in each of the states (U.S.) to which we moved when I was a boy. Dad and Mom were elected to offices of those congregations. Those congregations, in turn, were members of an international “denomination”. But I never thought of my parents as followers of an organization or a modern religious “leader”. When officers of the denomination did things my parents considered to be mistakes they were VERY careful about HOW they spoke about such mistakes. They were more inclined to wait until the next “elections” were held and then vote for people my parents thought were likely to try to rectify the mistakes. As far as I knew, that only happened a few times when I was a boy but it was often enough that I never got the idea that the organizations - either the local congregations or the denomination as a whole were/was hierarchical or creedal. As an adult, I too have moved from one state to another. As an adult, I too have been elected to offices of congregations of which I have been a member. In recent decades, however, it has taken me longer to find congregations (in my own or other denominations) where organization is considered a tool of the church. To the extent that organization is considered to BE the church, hierarchy and creedalism tend to dominate. This tends to be true even among “non-denominational” congregations, especially smaller ones in which the same extended family has dominated the congregation for generations. In 2016 my wife and I moved to a state where I am still looking for a congregation that is adequately non-hierarchical, non-creedal and non-political for me to be a voting member. Any suggestions?
Start your own home gathering. The business like system we know as “church” is a false one. No edification, no Sabbath keeping, it’s mixed w believers & non believers, etc.
Matt 18:20 sounds clear, what sounds "perverse" is the modern church government structure where men are bucking Pauls clear example and making the Gospel their sole vocation and the congregants their sole source of income. If Christ dwells in us and the Holy Spirit ministers to us, why do we need a confessional disciplinary structure outside of that? It also hits me as weird that the one direct command Jesus gave on money, the use of money, to pay our taxes, is ignored by the churches. The only people in the world who do not pay taxes are Church governments... is it possible Satan gets "perverse" pleasure out of having his Governments offer this exempt status to the churches and see non of them decline and follow that clear command? How quickly church becomes a work even to the most studious Calvinist, tell a Christian family in China that church is this important, I think they'd have a different take on it, certainly different than someone from early 20th century England with their cozy traditions and values. I am a former Jehovah's Witness who was saved by Grace not very long ago, so yes I am a newly converted man and admittedly new to the Christian community. I am, however, very well versed in communal worship structures with checks and balances and I can assure you I was saved from it and without it. If there is a strong community of fellow workers to fellowship with in my future I will welcome it, but if not, I will be no less saved and I will continue to share the Gospel message with those in my sphere and get encouragement from the close Christian family I have, my, "two or three".
***FOR ALL*** What is His Church, and what it has become. His Church is simply all those with like faith of Abraham (before, during, and after) who believed God when against hope believed in hope that God would do what He promised, which in Abraham's case was that both he and Sarah would have a son in their old age, being past the age to bear children. Abraham believed God, who was in agreement with His Person and Character, Who is His Law, the Ten Commandments. But what has His Church evolved to become? It has become an Apostate Church, for the church (collectively) has forsaken His gospel to believe another, teaching for doctrines that come of men, and deceives many to think they are something their not via that light-fantastic theology they believe and teach. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is NOT His testimony: life, death, burial, resurrection, and ascension (which 99.9% of Christendom believe and teach), rather it's that we keep His Law, the Ten Commandments, which He made possible for us to do by His testimony, which is who He is. Therefore, because of His testimony, He expects all that names His name to depart from iniquity, which we do by keeping His Law, which is that work (good work) we do, being empowered to do it via the power of the Holy Spirit, which we receive by having godly sorrow for our sins. Repent, and believe His Gospel, which is that we keep His Law, which is who He is, and how we know Him, Who is love, for God is love (1 Jn. 2:3-4). God is: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, and these Three are One, the Big Three!!!
I believe you have a lack of knowledge of "The Law". If you truly study Judaism (which you need to, because Jesus was a Jew and his understanding and context of what he said was in that particular context) you will come to see that "The Law" is nothing simple and it is not simply 10 Commandments. Sadly, I've studied and found myself too deep to offer a clear summary or conclusion - only enough to say that based on what you wrote there is a lot more information available for you to learn. At this moment I have begun reading a very interesting overview of the New Covenant Theology with a great Jewish expositon on The Law. For those interested you can read it here. www.hebrew4christians.com/Scripture/Parashah/Summaries/Ki_Teitzei/Goal_of_Law/goal_of_law.html As a simple conclusion I will admit I don't have the answer, which means you could be right. However, I think there is a lot more information which is available to be used and tested before reaching that conclusion. Coram Deo
Adam Heeg: My knowledge and understanding of scripture and "The Law" is by the Holy Spirit, the Teacher of His word, Who convicts me, and guides me into all truth. Nothing I said is incorrect. It's your understanding of His Law that is wrong, which I know simply because you do not agree with me, for I speak and teach only those things that are by and of Him, which agrees with His written word, which is a more sure word of prophecy (Lk. 10:16). His Gospel pertains to His kingdom, which is ruled by His Law, the law of righteousness, which is that Law we are to walk after and keep to live with Him (Amos 3:3). Jesus Christ manifested in the flesh to demonstrate His law, making it possible for us to keep His Law via His testimony (life, death, burial, resurrection, and ascension). Therefore, because of His testimony He expects all that names His name to depart from iniquity, which we do by keeping His Law via the power of the Holy Spirit, Whom we receive when we confess and repent with godly sorrow upon hearing His testimony. There is no problem with me, but with you, for I walk after and keep His Law, which 99.9% of Christendom has forsaken, having turned His Gospel into another, which is not another, and deceives many to think they're something they're not by that light-fantastic theology they believe and teach. God is: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and these Three are One.
I believe Paul was clear about the purpose of the Law. It was given to show you can't keep it, and when you claim to keep the whole law you deceive yourself. See 1 John for more on this. The law is at minimum 613 commands given directly by God. If you deny that you deny Him. See 2 Timothy 3 for more. Jesus himself spoke of these many laws, see Matthew 5:17-19. You'll notice at least in the book of John that Jesus even calls the book of Psalms part of the Law (John 10:34)!! Scary stuff. Check here to see the written word of God which is binding on you if you want to be justified by the law, and this does not include Psalms!! www.gods-word-first.org/bible-study/613commandments.html Please don't misunderstand me, you have nothing to prove to me. I have no desire to 'tear you down' or to have you attempt to tear me down. That is not my goal, rather my goal is seeking truth. I wish you well. May we all come closer to Jesus through our disagreements, as iron sharpens iron, so you and I can help each other.
Adam: I agree we are not able to keep the Mosaic Law, neither are we to keep it, which law He did away with (Eph. 2:15). The issue is that the church (collectively) confuses the Mosaic Law with His Law, the Ten Commandments (TC), making them one and the same. The Mosaic Law is old covenant, which was for breaking His Law. His Law (TC) is separate from, and has nothing to do with the Mosaic Law. His Law is that Law we are to keep, which has never been destroyed. God manifested in the flesh to make it possible for us to keep His Law via His testimony (life, death, burial, resurrection, and ascension), which is His grace. Therefore, because of His testimony He expects all that names His name to keep His Law, which is that good work we do via the power of the Holy Spirit Whom we receive when we confess and repent of our sins with godly sorrow upon hearing His testimony. God is: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
This is funny, packer himself does not even believe in Orthodox Christianity, he believes that God must kill his own son in order to forgive, and he thinks this is the heart of the gospel. Where did the Bible teach such blasphemy? And packer is trying to help people understand the Bible?
It's such a privilege to hear J.I. Packer's teaching.
All thanks, praise, glory and honour be to Jesus, Amen !
It is becoming clearer to me. Thank you🙏
Thank you Father ,Son & Holy Ghost for great men of faith and wisdom as Bro Packer...Come quickly Lord Jesus....
Church is not something you go to, but a family you belong to.
Thanks for your great message and I’ve subscribed to your TH-cam channel
Between what my parents had taught me and what I had learned by reading a variety of sources including much of the Hebrew Bible, the Gospels and the Epistles, my understanding in 1959 was that the church consists of people who are learning to trust the Lord. The church may be organized (I thought and still think the church should be organized) but any organization of the church (including the organization of a local congregation) is a tool of the church. No organization IS the church.
It was the perception that an organization is the church that led the majority of Hebrews to reject both Jesus as the Messiah and the teachings of Jesus. It was the perception that an organization is the church that led the majority of the adherents of the Roman Church to reject protestant reforms in the sixteenth century. It was the perception that an organization is the church that led the majority of Anglicans to reject methodist reforms in the eighteenth century. Etc.
If it were true that a person is not a “real” Christian who is not a member of a local congregation, a person could become a Christian by joining a local congregation.
When I was a boy, my parents were members of a local congregation in each of the states (U.S.) to which we moved when I was a boy. Dad and Mom were elected to offices of those congregations. Those congregations, in turn, were members of an international “denomination”. But I never thought of my parents as followers of an organization or a modern religious “leader”. When officers of the denomination did things my parents considered to be mistakes they were VERY careful about HOW they spoke about such mistakes. They were more inclined to wait until the next “elections” were held and then vote for people my parents thought were likely to try to rectify the mistakes. As far as I knew, that only happened a few times when I was a boy but it was often enough that I never got the idea that the organizations - either the local congregations or the denomination as a whole were/was hierarchical or creedal.
As an adult, I too have moved from one state to another. As an adult, I too have been elected to offices of congregations of which I have been a member. In recent decades, however, it has taken me longer to find congregations (in my own or other denominations) where organization is considered a tool of the church. To the extent that organization is considered to BE the church, hierarchy and creedalism tend to dominate. This tends to be true even among “non-denominational” congregations, especially smaller ones in which the same extended family has dominated the congregation for generations.
In 2016 my wife and I moved to a state where I am still looking for a congregation that is adequately non-hierarchical, non-creedal and non-political for me to be a voting member.
Any suggestions?
Start your own home gathering. The business like system we know as “church” is a false one. No edification, no Sabbath keeping, it’s mixed w believers & non believers, etc.
Matt 18:20 sounds clear, what sounds "perverse" is the modern church government structure where men are bucking Pauls clear example and making the Gospel their sole vocation and the congregants their sole source of income. If Christ dwells in us and the Holy Spirit ministers to us, why do we need a confessional disciplinary structure outside of that?
It also hits me as weird that the one direct command Jesus gave on money, the use of money, to pay our taxes, is ignored by the churches. The only people in the world who do not pay taxes are Church governments... is it possible Satan gets "perverse" pleasure out of having his Governments offer this exempt status to the churches and see non of them decline and follow that clear command?
How quickly church becomes a work even to the most studious Calvinist, tell a Christian family in China that church is this important, I think they'd have a different take on it, certainly different than someone from early 20th century England with their cozy traditions and values.
I am a former Jehovah's Witness who was saved by Grace not very long ago, so yes I am a newly converted man and admittedly new to the Christian community. I am, however, very well versed in communal worship structures with checks and balances and I can assure you I was saved from it and without it. If there is a strong community of fellow workers to fellowship with in my future I will welcome it, but if not, I will be no less saved and I will continue to share the Gospel message with those in my sphere and get encouragement from the close Christian family I have, my, "two or three".
***FOR ALL***
What is His Church, and what it has become. His Church is simply all those with like faith of Abraham (before, during, and after) who believed God when against hope believed in hope that God would do what He promised, which in Abraham's case was that both he and Sarah would have a son in their old age, being past the age to bear children. Abraham believed God, who was in agreement with His Person and Character, Who is His Law, the Ten Commandments. But what has His Church evolved to become? It has become an Apostate Church, for the church (collectively) has forsaken His gospel to believe another, teaching for doctrines that come of men, and deceives many to think they are something their not via that light-fantastic theology they believe and teach.
The Gospel of Jesus Christ is NOT His testimony: life, death, burial, resurrection, and ascension (which 99.9% of Christendom believe and teach), rather it's that we keep His Law, the Ten Commandments, which He made possible for us to do by His testimony, which is who He is. Therefore, because of His testimony, He expects all that names His name to depart from iniquity, which we do by keeping His Law, which is that work (good work) we do, being empowered to do it via the power of the Holy Spirit, which we receive by having godly sorrow for our sins.
Repent, and believe His Gospel, which is that we keep His Law, which is who He is, and how we know Him, Who is love, for God is love (1 Jn. 2:3-4).
God is: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, and these Three are One, the Big Three!!!
I believe you have a lack of knowledge of "The Law". If you truly study Judaism (which you need to, because Jesus was a Jew and his understanding and context of what he said was in that particular context) you will come to see that "The Law" is nothing simple and it is not simply 10 Commandments.
Sadly, I've studied and found myself too deep to offer a clear summary or conclusion - only enough to say that based on what you wrote there is a lot more information available for you to learn.
At this moment I have begun reading a very interesting overview of the New Covenant Theology with a great Jewish expositon on The Law. For those interested you can read it here. www.hebrew4christians.com/Scripture/Parashah/Summaries/Ki_Teitzei/Goal_of_Law/goal_of_law.html
As a simple conclusion I will admit I don't have the answer, which means you could be right. However, I think there is a lot more information which is available to be used and tested before reaching that conclusion.
Coram Deo
Adam Heeg: My knowledge and understanding of scripture and "The Law" is by the Holy Spirit, the Teacher of His word, Who convicts me, and guides me into all truth. Nothing I said is incorrect. It's your understanding of His Law that is wrong, which I know simply because you do not agree with me, for I speak and teach only those things that are by and of Him, which agrees with His written word, which is a more sure word of prophecy (Lk. 10:16). His Gospel pertains to His kingdom, which is ruled by His Law, the law of righteousness, which is that Law we are to walk after and keep to live with Him (Amos 3:3). Jesus Christ manifested in the flesh to demonstrate His law, making it possible for us to keep His Law via His testimony (life, death, burial, resurrection, and ascension). Therefore, because of His testimony He expects all that names His name to depart from iniquity, which we do by keeping His Law via the power of the Holy Spirit, Whom we receive when we confess and repent with godly sorrow upon hearing His testimony. There is no problem with me, but with you, for I walk after and keep His Law, which 99.9% of Christendom has forsaken, having turned His Gospel into another, which is not another, and deceives many to think they're something they're not by that light-fantastic theology they believe and teach.
God is: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and these Three are One.
I believe Paul was clear about the purpose of the Law. It was given to show you can't keep it, and when you claim to keep the whole law you deceive yourself. See 1 John for more on this.
The law is at minimum 613 commands given directly by God. If you deny that you deny Him. See 2 Timothy 3 for more. Jesus himself spoke of these many laws, see Matthew 5:17-19. You'll notice at least in the book of John that Jesus even calls the book of Psalms part of the Law (John 10:34)!! Scary stuff.
Check here to see the written word of God which is binding on you if you want to be justified by the law, and this does not include Psalms!!
www.gods-word-first.org/bible-study/613commandments.html
Please don't misunderstand me, you have nothing to prove to me. I have no desire to 'tear you down' or to have you attempt to tear me down. That is not my goal, rather my goal is seeking truth. I wish you well.
May we all come closer to Jesus through our disagreements, as iron sharpens iron, so you and I can help each other.
Adam: I agree we are not able to keep the Mosaic Law, neither are we to keep it, which law He did away with (Eph. 2:15). The issue is that the church (collectively) confuses the Mosaic Law with His Law, the Ten Commandments (TC), making them one and the same. The Mosaic Law is old covenant, which was for breaking His Law. His Law (TC) is separate from, and has nothing to do with the Mosaic Law. His Law is that Law we are to keep, which has never been destroyed. God manifested in the flesh to make it possible for us to keep His Law via His testimony (life, death, burial, resurrection, and ascension), which is His grace. Therefore, because of His testimony He expects all that names His name to keep His Law, which is that good work we do via the power of the Holy Spirit Whom we receive when we confess and repent of our sins with godly sorrow upon hearing His testimony. God is: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Who is this old man??
This is funny, packer himself does not even believe in Orthodox Christianity, he believes that God must kill his own son in order to forgive, and he thinks this is the heart of the gospel. Where did the Bible teach such blasphemy? And packer is trying to help people understand the Bible?
can you tell me what the gospel is?
in my youtube channel
With all due respect, most of us would be unable to carry Rev. Packers briefcase, let alone accuse him of getting the gospel wrong.
hv u read his book 📚 of are u even aware of it .,,
@@andrewmartens3109 Jesus alone is the Holy One.(Reverend) Lord Jesus Christ. You alone died on Calvary You alone are.God Most r