Why I Never Did A Zero Punctuation on Undertale | Extra Punctuation
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ธ.ค. 2021
- This week on Extra Punctuation, Yahtzee discusses his thoughts on Undertale and why he never did a full Zero Punctuation episode on it.
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#ExtraPunctuation - เกม
"The main reason I've only watched videos of the Genocide ending and never done it myself is because I just don't want to taint all the positive feelings I have for the good ending."
And even THERE, Toby has some really sharply incisive dialog, taunting you for even those actions. Flowey remarking, "At least we're better that those sickos that stand around and WATCH it happen... Those pathetic people that want to see it, but are too weak to do it themselves. I bet someone like that's watching right now, aren't they...?"
Just bone-chilling
Came here to add this. That line is so good, Toby figured out a way to speak to the player AND TH-cam viewers who didn't want to play that part themselves.
I dunno, man, struck me as pretentious. Both for Flowey and Fox. I don't really consider players to be 'too weak' or 'pathetic' for just wanting to see the outcomes of a game. Especially one that makes it such a pain in the ass to get to those other encounters and scenes that better flesh out its world and narrative.
@@varsoonhks3211 It's just a bit of fun. I don't imagine Toby is actually having a go at you. It's really an extension of the game's unsettling meta of having characters go "I'm watching you, saving and loading". It's not meant to really say you're playing wrong, just be a subversion, that you didn't consider the game might be watching you. The "stand around and watch" comment is an extension of that. It's meant to catch people sitting on their couch watching a LP thinking that they're outside of the game's "reach", and then suddenly a character in the game addresses them too.
@@varsoonhks3211 To be fair, Fox did make Flowey to be an extremely jaded, pretentious character due to the experiences he went through. That quote is extremely in character for Flowey, who often perceives compassion for weakness.
@@varsoonhks3211 damn you really gonna say Flowey said something so Toby personally believes that too?
It WAS basically a solo project, but a bunch of art credit goes to Temmie 😁
I guess by "solo show" means that, while Temmi Chang helped with the art aspect- the combat, writing, scenarios, dialogue and plot was all on him, probably receiving some feedback from some testers but overall not deviating from his original vision.
@@monkey_blu That’s why the person above you said, “It was,” they know all this.
It's me! TeMmIe
Tem got grdt so Tem cud go to Coleg.
remember the giant toilet in deltarune?
apparantly the joke behind it was he asked temmie to make a toilet sprite but he didnt specify the size, so the sprite he got was massive
for some reason, he kept it in game as an inside joke taht probably nobody would get if it wasnt said
It is really heartwarming that despite how cynical yahtzee is he could not get himself to do the genocide run
Honest cynicism doesn't come from some sort of callous indifference. It comes from seeing a world full of potential which is often squandered. Or worse, perverted by those who deal in callous indifference.
For the cynic, something which meets its potential is a rare and precious thing. I would argue that it is because of his cynicism that he hasn't done a genocide run. Not something done in spite of it.
I'm surprised he didn't call out the game for calling him out in the genocide run for watching videos of it
@@rainbowkrampus damn bro chill
“Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist.” -George Carlin
@@soul2928 he/she was chill.. it's just that because you see a wall of text your mind gave you the idea that this person wasn't chill, but if you actually read the words you'd see they weren't calling anyone out, insulting/attacking anyone, cursing, or any other indicators that imply not being chill.. all i see is an oversimplified definition of cynicism.. (the reason i say "oversimplified" is because they forgot the part where cynicism is a form of nihilism, which is more or less a symptom of depression)
this may be blasphemous but I'm starting to enjoy Extra Punctuation more than the original Zero Puncuation, I love the longer form more detailed stuff from Yahtzee
Suprised to see you here, then again you and Yahtzee both inhabit Australia so there's some kind of connection.
A man of taste :)
IT'S THE BOI, THE MAD LAD HIMSELF
You're right, that is blasphemous, but agreed,
Not blasphemous at all, this a very different show to Zero Punctuation (let not the shared suffix fool you!). Zero Punctuation is primarily a comedy show with a bit of game criticism/analysis thrown in the mix. Extra Punctuation seems to be primarily a game criticism/analysis show with a bit of comedy thrown in the mix.
I never knew about the whole “crawling around the sheets of a giant bed” bit until this video
same
Me too
IMO the beauty of Toby Fox's work is the amount of effort he's willing to put into a gag regardless of how many people will see them, ensuring that almost all of them are worth a laugh the first time they land.
With a save point, one that recovers all your health, so close; what other point was there to a hotel?
I could have sworn that wasn't in the original game. I talked to everyone on my playthrough.
I appreciate hearing a not so "snappy" yahtzee yet still well constructed stream of consciousness
He finally used punctuation in his script
This is the first vid I've watched of "Extra Punctuation". After so many years of watching ZP, my first reaction was that someone slipped some Quaaludes into his coffee. (The video was spot on though, I've heard great things about Undertale but never played it myself.)
I tried listening with the play speed up to x1.5 and it still somehow sounds slower than normal.
The alcohol is finally wearing off after all these years.
It reminds of his old Let's Drown Out series
Another point about the genocide ending is that it makes reaching it something you have to genuinely commit to. Pulling it off means not only attacking monsters rather than sparing them, but actively grinding in every area of the game until monsters stop spawning. Fights turns from clever puzzles where you have to figure out what makes each monster tick and pay attention to their attack patterns, to mindless tedium as you repeat the same attack command over and over. Characters you've grown to understand will constantly tell you that there's still time to turn back and stop, and at almost any point you can swerve and go back to the neutral route. The game does everything in its power to make genocide not fun to play, to see if you'll push through anyway just to find out what happens
I feel like even Metatton NEO is actually a decent obstacle BECAUSE he's so underwhelming, I feel like hes a commentary on what happens when you grind incessantly and remove any challenge from a boss fight, power for the sake of power. Its not meant to be satisfying. I think alot of those fan-mod boss fights kinda miss the point on that. like grinding hollows in undead burg just so you can one-shot the taurus demon(Dark Souls). Its a way deterring you, BORING you...and when that doesn't work? its time for the last resort. pull out all the stops and FRUSTRATE you, with Sans.
You must be filled with DETERMINATION.
So what is undertale supposed to tell us?
It obviously is not as shallow as « murder bad » ,but what is it?
A jab at the completionist attitude gamers have? Which is why genocide is so grindy and unpleasant? Weird thing to criticize though.
« Gamers suck because they want to see everything a game has to offer and see all sides of a moral dilemma for fun, therefore it is vile» dear lord that’s even more childish and boring than how SMT handles its alignment system with the modern games
But even if that were the case, that’s something that ISNT talked about often in the fanbase. It’s all uwu golden route happy ending trite because they don’t get the point of undertale. Neither do I! But at least I’m still making an effort, unlike people who only play 1/3rd of a game and think they’ve reached a perfect understanding of it.
I seriously can’t think of any other original message undertale tries to convey. The pacifist is so unbelievably devoid of depth and generic, neutral and genocide are the only routes that actually make you think. It’s such a shame most fans COMPLETELY dismiss them and leave 2/3rds of the game out.
Yeah well, at least it’s no wonder undertale went mainstream when you look at the average critical thinking level of their fans.
Games with actual good alignments/moral choices are extremely rare today. Even the best ones still disappoint me at times.
@@smtandearthboundsuck8400 you must be fun at parties.
@@smtandearthboundsuck8400
Someone is defensive about being called out, to such a degree that they commented demanding the answer to a question that was clearly answered in the video they're posting under.
We get it, you either killed everyone and feel bad about it (like the rest of us, which was the point--making you feel bad for the bad thing you were doing) or you don't feel bad which does, in fact, make you soulless scum.
You want meaning?
Just because you *can* doesn't mean you *should.* Ability is not the equal of morality. "The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must" may be accurate, but it's also utterly morally bankrupt.
One thing I appreciate about this game in particular is that technically it doesn’t actually break the 4th wall: the 4th wall is integrated into the universe itself. NPC’s acknowledge game mechanics because it’s a part of their lives and they constantly interact with it. My favourite example of this is probably the acknowledgement of yellow names. The Froggit that teaches you about yellow names gives you the option to remove them, to which they react by saying how everyone now has to get rid of them. After doing so, if you examine the trash in the dumpsite, it mentions that a bunch of yellow names were lie within the garbage, showing how they were an actual part of the world rather than just a game mechanic.
@Ian Taylor i believe it’s purple or pink you can change them to, it’s great
@@krisdeluxe4417 pink, if you go and say you want the 'spare-able' indications back.
@@Stevie-J I think you’re getting meta confused with breaking the 4th wall. Undertale is a meta-game, where aspects of the medium are directly addressed within the world itself, meaning it’s imbedded into the universe rather than solely for the player. Flowey doesn’t casually mention Saving and resetting the game, he acknowledges it as a power that exists within the universe and even utilises it for himself. Same goes for Determination, the mechanism behind saving and resetting, which is actively being researched by characters in the game. These aren’t just little jabs and quirky moments, they’re actual parts of world building. It wouldn’t really make sense for an entire storyline to be centred around a 4th wall break.
@@Minishroom123 I'd argue that Deltarune IS actually building towards being essentially a game based around a 4th wall break, since the "game-y" aspects and the player as an entity are acknowledged more directly, but I get what you mean about there being a distinction
I've actually been kind of looking for a way to describe the differences between Undertale and Deltarune's similar (but not *quite* the same) way of treating/presenting the fact that they are video games and the mechanics of that fact, and I think meta vs 4th-wall-breaking might be close
the way that the power to save, load, and reset could technically be given to any character with enough determination, and that someone else literally DID have that power before you, is a fantastic example of this
That last bit hits home for me. While I can see it being an excuse for an auteur to put out pretentious garbage, it really is hard to pitch ideas based in stream of consciousness to a project's team. So then you just keep it to yourself and assume it's a bad idea anyway.
Or become Hideo Kojima.
Or David Firth.
Or the guy who commissions Wonder Bread art.
Truly all masters of their Kraft
The fact that I know who the “wonder bread art guy” is tells me I have seen too much internet
@@courier6960 dare I ask?
@@imadethisespeciallyforthis3472
It’s a guy who commissions various NSFW and SFW artists to draw busty, blonde, rich, blue eyed women (not wearing or doing anything sexual mind you) either buying lots of white /wonderbread or committing deforestation (cutting down a lot of trees) with chainsaws, I think sometimes it’s other acts of environmental destruction but I’m not entirely sure.
Theres usually absolutely no sexual qualities about the work he commissions other than the fact other than the fact that’s it’s busty blonde women. I think the whole thing has something to do with race (because of the wonderbread and how it’s specifically white women?). Shadman himself (an NSFW artist who’s known for drawing some fucked up shit) declined a commission of his (that’s how you know this guy is WEIRD), there’s a lot a disagreement about what the commission was on. Likely, it was either too fucked up or too nonsexual for shadman to say yes to it.
It’s all VERY strange to say the least, and apparently people who have met with him in real life say that this isn’t just some internet act or trollage, he’s actually this weird in real life, and his commissions are very much serious. He apparently talks about consumerism, capitalism, and slavery like they are all good things (so it backs up that theory that it’s about race). Oh and also sandwiches, everything he talks about comes down to fucking sandwiches (not literally, I added “fucking” for dramatic effect about how weird this is, I understand there could be some confusion there).
Edit: I looked back at my source video for learning about this, and apparently he got fired from his job and disowned from his family for this kind of shit. He apparently went one an insult spree to his coworkers often insulting their sexualities and/or race. He doesn’t even think he did anything wrong, he’s that far gone into whatever lovecraftian hell his mind is.
"Um Hideo, does quiet have to wear that outfit?"
Another thing about the Sans fight: it's heavily implied that YOU are the final boss and that Sans is engaging YOU. This is because he takes certain actions that, normally, only the player is capable of: he actively avoids your attacks, can perform a betrayal kill, and attempts to stall by not finishing his turn.
its really just a theory, and isn't that heavily implied ill be honest
@@rainydeestar I wouldn’t say heavily, but it is definitely implied to a small extent. Just the name of the song “megalovania” refers to you and your actions in becoming stronger.
What do you call it when a high stat character with a theme in reference to themselves starts a fight with you in a video game?
Easy, it’s a boss battle.
@@BlueSoulGamer The "Megalo-Sans" "Megalo-Chara" and "Megalo-Player" has always been a big debate within the community, but it has never been nothing more than a theory. Afterall, Megalovania is just a song toby always uses
Geeeeeeeeet dunked on
@@rainydeestar that’s very cut and dry, and far from the truth. The reality of the matter is that some themes mean things, like berguntrucking means “king in the mountain.”
With this, there are only two ways of interpreting the meaning of megalovania. One is mixing megalomania(obsession with power) with Transylvania, as Toby loves Halloween names. The second is combining megalo which means obsessive, and vania which means truth to make “true obsession”
The first one is far more likely, however either way you look at it, it means the same thing: intense desire for power.
“At least we’re better than those sickos who sit around and WATCH it happen. Those pathetic people that want to see it, but are too weak to do it themselves.” -Flowey
Possibly the best 4th wall gaming quote ever
@@Stevie-J gr8 b8, m8.
@@Stevie-J or just your opinion
@@Stevie-J Lol what, the game has constantly breaking the fourth wall to create horror before that (not just for jokes like Deadpool), calling players out for their actions so many times by breaking that fourth wall, for Flowey to call the viewers out is just the next logical step of that narrative of the game. Did you just skip over the dialogues and entirely miss that point
@@Stevie-J okay then buster brown, tell us in your infinite wisdom how you would've made the game better, no criticism is to be taken seriously without constructive suggestions to improve it.
God I wish I could've seen what this person said
I always liked how committing to the Genocide run is quite tedious, having to kill literally everything. Making the player become numb to killing monsters after caring so much to spare them in Pacifist really is a stroke of genius
I would disagree. It's not a matter of becoming numb to killing monsters, it's actively trying to kill them all. It's tedious to do because you hunting down every single person, who can't possibly oppose you, should be tedious, and the only reason to continue doing it is calculated malice.
Just by making the gameplay loop get old, Toby Fox made it a genuine moral choice, instead of an arbitrary measure of the player's engagement.
Because realistically in a monster rpg game setting what would one expect? In JRPGs monsters are endless spawning, but really, you start killing everything that moves, the world gets more barren and more empty the longer you play.
@@lancelikessause My first run, Flowey was the One enemy I Didn't spare.
Because everyone else, I cared about, like Papyrus and Toriel, or at least understood the reasoning, like Undyne and Asgore.
But up to that point? Not knowing the extra content you could access after, for true pacifist ending? Man, Fuck Flowey. He was the only character show real evilness. A desire to cause suffering. He wasn't defending himself, he wasn't trying to protect others, he was just a Dick.
So, after getting so far without killing anyone, when I was given the chance... Yeah, Fuck Flowey.
The fact that the time to encounter new monsters increases exponentially with each one you kill really made it hit home. Honestly, it felt like the game itself was falling apart in the face of your continued malevolence.
Personally I think having to kill EVERY monster available was boring when the Genocide route could've been more engaging. Instead of killing EVERY POSSIBLE monster, I think you should've had to fight Sans if you simply killed every enemy and boss you ever came across. Essentially, make the Genocide route a punishment for resorting to violence rather than the most elongated easter egg possible. Neutral is obviously for mixed results and Pacifist is the reward for finding a way to win without killing.
“You murdered her
And then you went back because you felt bad”
This, this is what got me truly suckered into Undertale. When Flowey said this I nearly shit myself by how hard I got called out. Honestly I got the good ending and then being asked to not reload and let them have their happy ending made me heart swell and I can’t bring myself to play a genocide route much like Yahtzee. I’ll take happiness where I can get it and this ending makes me very happy
That happened to me... but I decided to restart anyway. The final boss called me out and I was ready to spare him... but I didn't liked being "Dunked on" so I proceeded with my run.
Now looking back at it, the final boss was showing its last attempt to strike at me, someone with a LOT of control over it's fate. If it lives a happy ending or dies a tragic and lone death is up to me, and he knows it. That last attempt is one final: stick it to the man, he is known for.
I actually stopped playing Undertale for a while after that part. I was having trouble figuring out how to "spare" Toriel, but remembered one of those Frogits at the start saying that if you wail on a monster enough, it can trigger them to be spareable. So, I smacked her around a bit to see if that would work, then it did that instakill move. I was upset, and restarted the game immediately...then Flowey said that, and I just couldn't anymore because I felt bad, like I had ruined this world enough and there was nothing I could do to fix it.
I was trying to figure out how to do the good ending, but got to this point. I just felt so awful, I tried reloading the save and had the game guilt me like that... and it genuinely made me have to wait a few days to actually feel better. For a fictional character. That I had just met.
I reinstalled the game later and finally got the good ending, and it was probably the best experience I've had in gaming for the last twenty years. I haven't done a genocide run either and I absolutely ain't going to, because the game is amazing just as I remember it. Just the memory of it and the love for the characters brings such joy, I would never be able to finish another run of it.
I honestly think that killing Toriel is the most important thing a player can do on their first run. That moment so perfectly encapsulates everything the game represents. I really thought that it would just be a thing why after the fight she's like, "oh, you have defeated me" and that's it the end of it. I didn't think it mattered. And then she disintegrated. She literally turned to dust and blew away. And that moment haunted me for the entire rest of the game.
Toriel, ever funny and maternally affectionate, is the gateway to falling in love with the characters and their charming quirky personalities. Once you do, you're helplessly drawn to go true pacifist.
Yahtzee really did be all "I can't give a positive review after my portal review and my promise about forks and eyes. I'll have to hide it in a side video and release it 7 something years later"
“Pssh! 7 years? It’s only been…”
“Oh…”
@@Abdega
"First time?"
7:07 “I don’t know why any of this happens- but I’m glad that it does”
The delivery on this line is excellent.
I'm suprised you never covered the fact that Flowey calls out people who watch the genocide run on yourtube rather than do it themselves because they are a coward in the final stretch of the game. It was so clever and well done.
He did though? He said that the game calls you out for pussying out as well.
Edit: Upon a rewatch, I couldn't find when he did. I think I attributed an escapist comment to the vid woops
He was one of those people , he didn't want to draw attention to how Toby Fox called him out specifically.
I thought it was a good idea but the execution was off, the scene walking along with Flowey telling you his life story is one of my favourites but that feels rather out of left field. The problem is that it doesn't make sense in-universe, every meta comment still makes sense in context of determination and the like but people watching you murder people is never a thing that's explored or makes much sense.
@@VinVonVoom flowey knows this a game why wouldn't he know there's people that watch videos of the game
@@subzu2733He doesn't, he knows about Determination and save points but he doesn't know it's literally a video game. It at least wasn't stated as such.
I accidentally killed Toriel the first time I played, then when I reset and saw what happened at 5:55 I felt SO bad and was genuinely shocked. The fact that Undertale remembers what you do is such a brilliant move. Everything about this game is amazing and wonderful
Same thing happened to me! I was so confused and worried when that happened...I never did finish the game
I did that but continued the game...I made a solemn swear that while I would be strong and protect myself, I would also never kill another monster. Sure made Undyne's fight hard, lol.
4:09 "The good ending that you get for not killing anyone makes me well up every time I see it, and there are few games about comedy skeletons that manage that."
Was that a nod to Planescape Torment?
That would be awesome but his review of planescape was negative because there was too much reading so it would only be a nod if he went back to replay it on his own time outside of zp.
i thought it was grim fandango personally
Who the fuck is thinking about Planescape Torment ever? bEsT bOoK yOu'LL eVeR pLaY
He's saying that a game about comedy skeletons is unlikely to make him well up, not the other way around.
@@sincereflowers3218 Best RPG ever made, mainly because it cuts the combat and focuses on the role-playing. Yes it leads to a lot of reading, but if you like the tone and themes you'll be able to deal with that (as Yhartzee did for Disco Elysium).
I think another reason why the Genocide Run works so well is that it isn't convenient. You don't just kill whoever gets in your way, you have to actively grind in order to reach a certain number in an area, meaning you have to keep killing the same things over & over. It's tedious, making you start to loathe the same creatures you came to love, because they're just another obstacle.
That's another reason why the extra difficult boss fights worked as well. You begin by feeling bad for fighting them, but the amount of failure needed to beat them is enough to piss you off & be grateful they're dead.
Also, I'm glad that you mentioned how you can never play it yourself & rely on videos to know what happens. During the lead up to the final boss, Flowey commends the player on actually completing the run instead of just watching someone do it. He mentions "those pathetic people that want to see it, but are too weak to do it themselves. I bet someone like that's watching right now, aren't they...?"
"It's tedious, making you start to loathe the same creatures you came to love, because they're just another obstacle."
"* In my way."
still gives me chills
@@ckorp666 They described what LV (LOVE) literally is
The measurmeent pf how detached you become
and the more detached
the easier it is to hurt others
Frisk isnt the only one gaining LOVE
The Player is too
The difficulty of the fights did the opposite for me. Sans' fight in particular is so fun that it made it feel less like a frustrating obstacle that you just want to get past and more like a friendly competition. After I finally beat him it was more like "gg wp" than "thank goodness that's over with". Which is why I quit out and reset before killing him.
I just wanted to spar with you Sans, why did you make me kill all those monsters?
I played the game exactly once. Went true pacifist. And I still have the original save file on an external hard drive. They get their happy ending for as long as I can keep it safe.
Same, I have no desire to do the genocide or watch the genocide ending haha
@@spinlock1785"tumblr-level", he said. Unaware that Undertale's style of writing came first.
Erm... The true pacifist ending is locked until you complete the neutral route, so you need at least two playthroughs to get the best ending.
(Apparently there's a trick with endgame save files, so after completing the first playthrough you can reload towards the end to skip most of the game for the "second playthrough." But still.)
@@greenredblue I think he's counting that as "exactly once", since it's a mandatory prereq. And I could see how that technically IS one playthrough, given the nature of the True Pacifist ending. I won't be going into detail or debating this, due to my personal conviction never to risk spoiling Undertale for anyone.
@@trianglemoebius My concern was not about semantics, my concern was making sure that OP's good intentions didn't make them accidentally miss a truly sweet and heartwarming story. If they saw it then great, but that's not what their words mean.
Besides, if I understand correctly, what you're referring to would mean that you could play through 12 times and it would still be "your first playthrough." I'm not sure that comports with language like "I played it exactly once."
The fact that he is usually dismissive of 99.9% of games makes the videos where he praises something all the more enjoyable. Undertale is a game that deserves that.
It’s literally a subversion of his normal stuff to complement the theme. He’s slower, uses gameplay footage, and is extremely positive.
My experience with Undertale was rather unique compared to most; that game made me feel an emotion *no other video game* has ever succeeded in giving me -- the feeling of Atonement. On my first playthrough, I honestly didn't really know what to expect, so I went through it with a simple MO: "If I think you didn't have a good reason to attack me, I'd kill you." But if they seemed good-natured, I'd try my hardest not to kill them. Seemed reasonable -- something like self-defense. I reasoned that, hey, it's an RPG, so I need to get XP from *somewhere,* and coincidentally killing the jerks to do it seemed like the most sensible thing at the time. Toriel, Papyrus, Undyne, and Asgore all got spared. Mettaton and Muffet, not so much. I grinded on some of the less-friendly monster encounters, even, not really "getting" the game. When it came time for Flowey, I knew I could never spare *that* motherfucker; however, when the choice itself actually came... I found myself extremely torn; something deep inside made me deliberate on it for a good ten minutes. In the end, I chose "Fight," since someone as evil as him "could never be allowed to live," but when his dying words were *"I knew you had it in you!"* I began to feel dirty with regret, occasionally over the next few weeks pondering his words, as well as Sans' words from his judgement -- in a world where I recognize my dominion over causality and choice like this, do I have an obligation to fight for a golden ending instead of playing the lazy pragmatist? Permitting the game to affect me more deeply, in that immersive state, I decided that I'd go back and do things right.
And so I did, and I'm glad I did. Hopes and Dreams hits different when you're also one of the souls present getting a redemption arc.
I haven't felt so good about a game since Majora's Mask, where the optional sidequests were just that, optional. Yet helping people's lives made the world feel so alive.
i think youre one of the few people to really get the “intended undertale experience”, where u play it like a normal rpg and then get suckerpunched by the games themes, then try again with pacifist. a lot of other people (myself included) got spoiled and went straight for pacifist
I'm so happy to have read this! Your unique experience is so interesting!
I personally thought that a "friendly little rpg where no one needs to get hurt" was very neat, and so I got the game for that reason. But I accidently killed Toriel, thinking that you had to "weaken" her before you could spare her. Getting called out by Flowey after reloading was a surreal experience that got me hooked.
It's fascinating to think of the amount of powerful first experiences you could have with Undertale!
I had a somewhat similar experience. I only killed 2 things on my first Undertale run, and they were both out of frustration. One of those airplane enemies because I couldn't figure out how to do them passively, and Mettaton, because 1. that fight is hard af, 2. he's a robot (or so I thought), and 3. his show seemed more like some dystopian hive-mind brainwashing thing that no one seemed to ACTUALLY enjoy. (The pacifist run proved me very wrong on that assumption.)
Although, I did end up sparing Flowey in the neutral ending. I was torn. Flipped a coin even. It said to kill him, but I couldn't help but feel I needed to spare him. Not only to prove him wrong, but his growing confusion showed me that, SOMEHOW, he wasn't pure evil. "I don't understand..." Really amazing scene. I can't remember if I cried from it or not. Teared up at least.
Essentially, Undertale taught me there's always a way to reach someone. You don't have to resort to killing them. You might even be missing out on something great if you do that.
Also wow, I never internalized that the True Pacifist ending is YOU getting redemption as well!! That makes everything even more impactful!
It's funny how Sans will call out the player for being lazy... while being the laziest, most apathetic person in the Underground.
"I'm not sure why this happens but I'm glad that it does"
That one sentence I feel could apply to 90% of the background events in the game.
It's also why I miss games of old made by small teams, without much overseer from higher ups and focus groups. Sometimes art should just be.
I still remember petting Greater Dog, his neck growing in length, wrapping around the screen, and the game going "wtf are you doing, you've already seen the limits of this feature."
Hitting the nail on the head. Especially about the choices having actual consequences. Best example is if you actually go through the Genocide Route and then try to get the Good Ending only to have it tainted forever and the game at the last moment reminding you that you effectively destroyed the game's world through your actions (doesn't matter why you did it) so you don't deserve a happy ending after that.
Honestly, I'm on the same page as Yahtzee about the Genocide Route. I haven't played it before, and I don't plan to. Why? Because Toby Fox made a little yellow shitstain of a flower put the idea in my head that all of those characters that I grew to love are living out joyful lives, safe and comfy in the hard drive of my Nintendo Switch. I don't want to take that away from them, even if it would change absolutely nothing about my real life.
Same here. When I beat the pacifist ending for the first time and went to replay it again, I switched to another user instead of deleting my old save file. I just couldn't bring myself to erase the save file for a game with a bunch of fictional monsters and funny skeletons for some reason.
Maybe that's enough? Like, that kind of thoughtfulness is a pretty impressive lesson on its own.
@@leonardorestrepo5196 I'm so happy to see people getting this message from it.
Yeah I was really happy to hear that he didn't do a genocide run, because as he says, it takes some pointed shots at doing something like that, simply because you can.
I am the same. The main menu you get after getting the good ending, with all the characters looking contented and happy, is something I don't want to taint either. Plus that Sans boss fight just seems far too hard.
Undertale is why I laugh when people say that The Last of Us 2 was so brilliant for trying to make you feel bad for killing people, all the while forcing you to kill people.
you should play spec ops the line
never got why people said tlou2 was brilliant when specops the line did the same thing earlier
It's not trying to make you feel bad, it's making characters sad. Undertale can't do that because your character has no personality, which is good.
Man, I got to the point in geno where Bone Trudle ended and ole pappy had to bite it and I cried. Grown ass man in the middle of class spilling quiet tears at the death of a basically innocent skeleton.
@@mekalasession3339 Hey DUDEBRO CONSUMER you are literally a monster guilty of murdering brown people all over the world because you wanted to play a simulation of war. Do you feel like a hero yet?
I'm rather surprised you never mentioned when Flowey calls you out for watching the Genocide rather than playing it yourself. I'm proud to say he got my ass on that one. Closest I ever got to doing it myself was playing Bad Time Simulator a few times.
There's too much to mention about Undertale in seven and a half minutes.
I thought about that, but seeing what happens to him next, he should be glad we aren't all being brave killers like he suggests.
I've never looked up the genocide ending, because honestly I do not care, Flowey can act smug all he likes, but I beat Sans once and that was my only motivation for even attempting the route, I never had any interest in finding out what came after
5:47 “you demand innovation while refusing to leave your comfort zone” incredibly well said
Well said but I don't agree that that's what Toby Fox was saying. I think in service of the story he used the lack of replayability of moral choice games against the player. And THAT was brilliance.
He made the fact we'd replay his "good game" until we got bored and started killing everything a part of the story of the game.
The man is a genius.
And yet ironically, for all his chastisement of the player, and being an endictment of its own existence, Sans' boss fight has become the memetic badge of honour by which you can claim to have beaten the game for real.
I’m happy with a badge saying I beat the god of hyperdeath or whatever Asriel calls his final form
Pfft, no. I beat the game, no one can take that from me. Screw the genocide right.
Give gamers a challenge, and they will beat it out of spite. Search "Hollow Knight How Players Beat Any Radiance", which is modded supposedly unbeatable boss (so unbeatable, author had to make Any Radiance 2.0)
Also fun little tidbit but you get the gratifying satisfaction of murdering Sans and still get to reset and not ruin your true pacifist run if you do so without progressing to the next room after Sans' boss room. The coded pacifist ruiner only kicks in when you leave the room so you can have your cake and eat it too.
Then theres the fact that Chara reacts differently at the end depending on how many genocide runs you have done in a row. Pressing the point undertale makes about gen runs to absolute ludicriousness.
Last video of 2021 from Yahtzee! Thanks for all your support this year. We'll be kicking off 2022 with the Best, Worst and Blandest of 2021, and Extra Punctuation will continue every other Thursday with the first episode dropping on the 13th. Enjoy!
Minor spelling mistake
Nick has Yahtzee got a book coming out?
Let’s all laugh at an industry that never learns anything, tee hee hee!
What a way to end the year, exquisite video
What the Genocide Route has always meant to me, personally, is a condemnation of "Completionism." Of seeing the game as just a list of things to do to be "done." You "can" go out and kill every single Monster, everywhere, and the game has content for it, so you feel like you "have to" to "finish" the game. And then the game asks: But why though? Why do you "have to" do this? How does disengaging with the story in order to fill in a checklist improve... anything?
One of the reasons that, despite being mechanics and presentation being some of my favorite things in the entire game (Battle Against a True Hero is my jam), I actually think the Undyne and Sans fights are somewhat... mistakes. Because they're *cool.* Really cool. Mechanically interesting, stylish, dramatic, everything a condemnation of the completionist compulsion *shouldn't be.* There's a reason that, in the Genocide Route, all of the other bosses disintegrate in one hit, but regular enemies still take multiple whacks to get through. It's because the regular enemies are *tedious,* while all of the boss fights in the game are *exciting,* and it feels like the Genocide Route doesn't want you to get the satisfaction of that. But then you have the two absolute best fights in the game, bar none, right there, and it just feels... confused. But that's just what I took away from it.
There is ground for the game being against completionism. Remember when achievements had to be implemented; did Toby Fox add some obvious ones like "reach Waterfall", "purchase temmie armor" or "finish without dying"? No, he made them entirely contained within one little minigame section that is not even present in my version of the game, and I don't think it's poorer for it.
Yeah Toby dropped the ball there if he really wanted people to feel bad about killing. Players actually had a "good time" fighting and beating those fights. And without going through the genocide route you would never get to hear megalovania.
What the hell is this Toby? Is that some positivity in your dark and judgmental message, hmm?
I actually see those fights as perfectly in line with the message of genocide. It condemns you for a completionist attitude partially because you can't do genocide accidentally, or just on a whim. You have to destroy everything you love, because you love it, and fight like hell to do so as as the game itself begs you to stop. If you only see it as a video game and hurting the characters isn't enough to phase you, then the gameplay itself tries to stop you by being unbearably difficult. And you and what you're doing isn't cool. Those characters are shown to be heroes BECAUSE they are trying to stop YOU. It proves you're soulless because you used everything you had to literally crush this world into dust, and you're proud of yourself for it. That's why you can't be redeemed. Not just for what you did, but because you LIKED it.
@@SharpingtonTheGreat So are players who play the genocide route genuinely horrible people?
@@jekblom123 Obviously not the person in real life, no. I do think it wants you to regret what you did, and to make you introspective. You take a moment to look at yourself and wonder why, though you feel bad now, a tiny part of you still had fun, and be uneasy about it. Ultimately, both endings are meant to be impactful and create an emotional connection, and I think they do a good job of it
Calling it "pretty much a one-man-show.. really" at the end makes me feel bad for Temmie. I get that Yahtz romanticizes the idea of renaissance men in game dev like Pixel and Lucas Pope, but I also think those sorts of impossibly lofty archetypes aren't helpful and all of those people we celebrate are the first to admit it takes a village for them to realize their vision as we played them. So like yes celebrate Toby Fox for making so much of this game we love, but also celebrate the William Pughs that contribute loads as well but that the public never recognizes (Toby has made a few blog posts talking about just how much help he's hiring for making Deltatune).
P.S. Yahtz also play Deltatune sooner rather than later. I think you'll burn yourself out trying to play all the chapters at once when the full project is complete. Another secret to Undertaker's success is the short runtime, which makes playing through a second time for the True Pacifist ending an easy sell. Each Deltatune chapter is equivalent to 33-66% the length of a full Undertale playthrough, and the writing is just as endearing as Undertale (and seems to be designed with the long gaps between releases in mind). If you played through all the chapters back-to-back without breaks you may come out of it not enjoying the whole as much (like someone who says they're gonna marathon the Yakuza games instead of just enjoying one at a time).
Thank you for this comment
I’ve seen that podcast, I gotchu
Undertaker
I see your point but Toby Fox should have the Movie Director treatment when it comes to his place in video gaming. The sheer creative he displays is unmatched by all other so called visionaries in modern media.
@@ProcrastPerfection I don't think OP is saying that Toby fox shouldn't be treated that way, but that focussing solely on his part in it's creation ignores the valuable contributions of others. You point to movie directors as a positive example, but in a way they exemplify this exact thing. You might know who directed your favourite movie, but do you know the editor, the cinematographer, the producer, the production designer? Barely any piece of art, even books, are really the product of a single person's creative vision, but all of the praise and respect goes to a few select individuals while everyone else is left out. This isn't me trying to claim that I'm the one person who does properly appreciate every single person who worked on the media I love, I'm just trying to flesh out the point being made.
The funny turtle buying some time for the rest to escape breaks my heart everytime I watch this video.
It's interesting, since Gerson Boom has lots of meta knowledge as well. I'm excited to see how he narratively fits into Deltarune, considering in UT, he's the one that INTRODUCED us to the Deltarune.
One understated thing about Undertale was my own experience: I was playing through it mostly to see what the fuss was about, when it was still in that early golden stage of 'Everyone's got positive things to say but the fanbase hasn't gotten big enough to start getting weird about it.' I decided to be the flippant 'oh it's just a game whatever,' and just went through doing Teh Murders. Because I didn't kill *everyone* (and didn't realize at the time that you're expected to 'farm' the random encounters if you want to be properly edgelord mcgee), I got a perfectly neutral ending of Skeleboy calling me a badman.
Run done. Pretty mundane ending. Satisfying enough for me to not feel hugely compelled to keep playing (since I never really clicked with the Bullet Hell until the very end, and mostly out of a curiosity to see where it was going than a genuine engagement). That was, in itself, *still* another experience than someone actively gunning for one of the two 'proper' endings that I didn't find out about until months later.
Incidentally, I absolutely love Inscryption. Personal GOTY contender, but I'm in the exact opposite boat where a single player, strategic card-building game was something I've been craving for years. Someone who's already bouncing off the first act is probably not going to have a fantastic time. It is, as much in story and characters as much as in gameplay, about playing cards.
I'm really glad that we've circled back around and can now have a video where someone just utterly and without caveats praises Undertale. It's things like this that make being a long-time fan of things gratifying.
The soundtrack does a lot of the heavy lifting, I could gush about it for entire paragraphs but there are 2 (technically 3) that make the game for me:
First is Bonetrousle, the song that plays when you fight Papyrus, it's also the song usually played on the trailers for the re-releases for a good reason: it captures this feeling of something wacky, but surprisingly layered and well-crafted, like Papyrus or the game itself.
And Bergentrückung + ASGORE, the combination of both of them when you begin the """final""" battle certainly gives this feeling of finality, but also hits you with the melancholy of it all. Asgore was built up big time at the beginning as the big bad that wanted you dead, but piecing together the story that you've been told, you realize he might not be as bad. And when he breaks the Spare button, it hits you that you can't back away, you have to fight. This song hit me hard in the feels, like harder than any other song in the game.
it manages to recycle so many melodies and leitmotifs in meaningful ways as well. flowey's theme, "your best friend," shows up everywhere (including but not limited to photoshop flowey and asriel's battle themes), AND the ambient music that plays after youve killed every monster in an area is flowey's theme slowed down by about 1200%. "it's raining somewhere else" is sans's theme, "song that might play when you fight sans" has bonetrousle in it, power of NEO and battle against a true hero are the same melody, "home" is the same as the menu theme, the song that plays in new home, "undertale," is home and memory combined.....so many remixes and interconnected leitmotifs. shit rocks, man
I've learned so much by reading Jason Yu's post on Undertale's leitmotivs. Like how the main themes for the ruins, hotlands and the core are linked by the same melody, or that ASGORE contains both Toriel's and Undyne's themes.
I honestly love hearing Yhatzee talk about why he loves the games he loves just as much as hearing him rant about why he hates the games he hates. Maybe even more so. Sure it's fun to listen to him lambast an awful game, but at the same time it was really nice hearing him talk about how meaningful Undertale is to him.
i constantly go back to this video because of how fun it is to hear you speak highly of a game, its like my comfort video
Toby did a TON of this game by himself, but Temmie Chang deserves some love too, she did a good chunk of the artwork. THANK YOU TEMMIE, I HOPE YOU HAD FUN AT COLEG!
One thing that caught me on my very first playthrough was that I did not know how to get the Pacifist ending to Toriel's fight. I considered the low HP idea, but Toby had a failsafe there where the last hit is earlier than expected. I reloaded and got it right the next time, but Flowey told me that he knew, and it scared the hell out of me. That introduction alone made my respect for the game skyrocket, and it only kept going up from there.
this happened to me too on my first playthroufg
I remember how this game drew me in: first fight with Tauriel, I tried to spare her but then I remembered you can weaken enemies. I tried this with her, only to kill her. I was so horrified that I immediately reset the game, only for Flowey to taunt me. HE KNEW WHAT I DID! I actually hid under my gaming table. Only a few other games have done that, have drawn me out of the blandness I live in.
Undertale is like the definition of bland
@@elgatochurro careful not to cut yourself on all that edge
@@elgatochurro I bet you're very fun at parties
@@aturchomicz821 You know what he means. He's a super duper clever contrarian. Exactly what edgy people try to be. Undertale is a lot of things, even to a critic, but bland ain't it.
Of course, she can accidentally kill you too, that horrified look on her face before the game over screen is burned into my retina.
fun fact: The abandoned quiche in undertale is based off the fact that one time Toby Fox found one under a bench.
After beating Undertale’s “pacifist” route, and loving every second of it and convinced I was playing a once in a generation masterpiece, I decided to give my go at a “genocide” rout, and it was every bit as horrible and brilliant as I imagined. But after my
*SPOILER WARNING*
50th attempt at fighting Sans, his mid fight dialogue really started to hit home in all the ways Yahtzee described, at how my desire to “see what happens next” has such a truly dark flavor to it. And so I stopped. I didn’t beat Sans even though I was really close. I went into the games files, deleted all save states etc., went back and beat it on Pacifist again, and haven’t picked it up since. I want my friends to have their happy ending and never leave it
Honestly I haven't played it yet and I want to at some point but when I do I'm never doing genocide. If u spend the whole game getting attached to these people there's no way I'm gonna throw that away for no reason other than I can
Sans won.
@@tyruskarmesin5418 yeah but ain't that a good thing
@@akirathewildcard9625 yes it is???????
@@akirathewildcard9625 yes it is???????
I've always put off Undertale cause I've seen parts of the sans fight and honestly it didn't look so fun esp when I'm not that great at games. I felt if I couldn't do genocide run I would be missing a part of the game or something since so many people reference it.
Hearing Yahtzee mentions he's never done it, for diff reasons, makes me actually want to go through it now
Genocide Sans is very interesting, since Sans doesn't get his full characterisation if you don't at least see that route, but honestly, Genocide isn't strictly necessary to get a complete Undertale experience. Too many people, especially fans watching streamers play it blind, demand that there's only one right way to play Undertale. Those people, invested as they are, are missing the point by trying to force other players to do it their way.
It's like ZP is there for the quick and slashing humor, and then EP for those who can appreciate the intellectual approach to it behind the scenes.
Well done.
I often wonder just how accessible Undertale really is. Like, it's surprisingly accessible in some ways, but has a lot of barriers in other ways.
In the past, I've found a lot of people get into turn based RPG's specifically because they don't require a lot of fine hand-eye coordination. I've had a few friends who wanted to play Undertale who couldn't get very far because of the bullet hell mechanics.
A lot of the narrative also requires a certain games literacy and anime culture literacy to really make sense of, which is another barrier to entry for a lot of people that I, personally, would love to share the game with.
After watching this, I have since played through Undertale for the first time.
And boy, I loved it, the characters are so endearing, the humor is grand, the twists and turns were top notch.
Even knowing the basic premise and that its a subversion of RPGs, it didn't lose any of that magic, and the soundtrack is top notch.
Unfortunately killed a monster early on and screwed myself over for the pacifist run, so round 2!
Watching Northernlion play this game was watching a man say "my expectations... They've been subverted" for 10 hours, and Yahtzee's right on the money
With perfectly cut endings of every video
6:18
There's actually a fourth wall break in the game in which basically Flowey calls people who do this cowards. It just stands to prove Toby thought of everything.
Iirc it only happens when the game picks up recording software or something right?
@@jonasquinn7977 when i did the run myself (for the thrill of the Undyne/Sans fight) they said it anyways. There could be friends watching you do it, just because they cant do it themselves
@@roller6902 that makes sense
@@jonasquinn7977 I haven't read that it can do that. Seems worth looking into!
Thankyou for taking the time to break down your love for Undertale Yahtzee
When the entirety of Deltarune is finished and able to be played in full, I can only hope you love it just as much :)
Him talking about Toby working solo for his Design weirdness is really funny in context of Deltarune’s development since it seems like the team Toby got together can definitely still maintain his weirdness to a T.
“Hey I got a couple rough sketches for characters/NPCs, think you can turn them into sprites?”
“Sure!”
[proceeds to hand them shitpost-tier sketches of weird characters and facial expressions]
I too await his reaction in 99 years
I think that the all the routes, especially genocide, show that Toby Fox is not only a great developer, but a fantastic writer and even composer too. Very few games cause me to genuinely cry every time I play them, and thats because of how emotionally well written it is and the music that just adds to the experience. It makes you feel like a monster, or a true hero depending on what path.
It’s really nice to see Yahtzee actually have some room to give his thoughts on what makes for good game design, unmeshed from the ZP humour. You can basically always parse out what he thinks of a game but there’s so many layers of irony and humour that it can be quite jarring at the end of a year to see a game that received a lot of criticism from him being named to his Top 5 and described as a really good game. But I like seeing EP episodes for that reason: just have a good premise for an episode and give us your thoughts, and be honest with where you are. Humour can be a great entry tool to get people to pay attention but it can also be a shield to avoid committing to anything, and EP’s departure from that is nice to see. After 10 years of doing this it’s great to see some plain and simple honesty about how a game is good.
Or maybe it’s just nice to get some variety from the Funny Cynical Man. Either way I’m really enjoying this series!
I got this game when it first came out after watching the first few minutes of a couple of let's-players' playthroughs, wanting to experience it in full for myself before watching any further.
I just couldn't bring myself to actually *hurt* any of the monsters, though, so I played through the neutral pacifist run (kill asgore + spare flowey), then reloaded and got the true pacifist ending (again, sparing flowey/asriel), then closed the game and never touched it again for another 7 years.
Looking waywardly at some genocide run footage today, that was probably the best decision I ever made in my entire life.
"I dont know why any of this happens but I'm glad it does" i found that heartwarming. I'm trying to apply that to my world view now
I never completed a genocide run, just got far enough to prove I could beat Sans, then quit before the end. Even that has special dialogue of Flowey calling you a coward for chickening out at the end.
Sans fight is really fun though, I love all the unfair tricks he pulls in the scheme of a turn-based RPG like attacking during menus and interrupting his own dialogue to attack you.
Thinking that i'd redeem myself by doing a second pacifist run after selling my soul in the genocide run only to see the game remember that run and give me a new ending solidifying that i did what i did. And nothing can erase that had me pondering my morality since all games i play my instinct is to get the heroic ending. But do not shy away from being less heroic on future playthrough
I played the game in late 2015 and did the genocide run in 2016, then re-created the world afterward. Seeing as things have seemingly gotten progressive shittier since then I sometimes wonder if I really did trade away my soul, as silly as that seems.
Well said. I actually have never even satisfied my curiosity for the genocide run. When, at the end of the good ending, I was asked to never play again, to leave the world in peace.... I legitimately felt it. Anndd... I have never booted it up again. Nor watched it. No game has ever before or since matched that emotional depth.
That's the first explanation of undertale that's actually made me want to give it a go.
Same
Why wait? It’s available on most platforms.
Just uh.. avoid like 70% of the fandom.
@@PROTOBLUES90 Started a play through a few days ago
@@skyguy675 and?
@@Maccelerate I did
Undertale is what keeps me going sometimes, because it is the most concise encapsulation of man's love for both art, and their fellow man.
I gotta say, i love watching the Zero Punctuation series, but I'm digging the Extra Punctuation. Feels like Yahtzee gets to expound on what he wants to, not just what the latest game is
Also helps the game apparently randomly generates 1-100 (I think) number with their being the subtlest of differences depending which range your number landed in
Including a secret character who only shows up if that number reaches a specific value, and that character has become absolutely integral to the lore of the game, or at least the fandom lore.
@@Irisverse To the lore of the not-sequel, in fact.
@@Irisverse To add to the apparent absurdity of this "fandom lore" concept, this character who shows up with a specific value is not confirmed to be the same character as the one everyone gives so much lore importance to.
Basically, MysteryMan, the weird NPC who appears with the 66 value, is not even confirmed to be Gaster, the lore-relevant scientist.
I love these videos. I've been watching Yahtzee since 2011 and I have never gotten tired of hearing "his take" on things.
"There are few games about Comedy skeletons that make me [well up every time I see it]."
So what you're saying, Yahtzee, is that there is at least one other game out there with comedy skeletons that makes you cry?
Now I'm curious.
If I had to take a guess, Grim Fandango?
Thanks Yahtzee, I’d also like to add one subversion.
It subverts of our depictions of pacifism. At least in games, choosing not to fight is either easy or not a choice at all. It’s also typical now to think the same way, and challenging that in people is ironically hard given the idea itself refuses them.
This game gets through, like nothing else I’ve ever seen. Challenging sometimes one of the most fundamental of ideas people can hold, just by showing them the kindness and love they were refusing to believe in themselves.
This is why, for me at least, I don’t think this will be forgotten. Why it’s so hard to put thoughts together on and simultaneously so easy to talk about and share.
It took this game 7 hours to say what the New Testament struggled to really ground in me for years.
I get the idea of not playing episodic games till they're done but once it is Deltarune will be even better than undertale ever was. It already is actually.
Well the reason I've always assumed he's never covered undertale in a video before is because if you really likes a game, he tends to avoid talking about spoilers. And what can you cover in undertale that doesn't spoil it?
Of course you reviewed Undertale. You said "it is a good game", short sweet to the point and that was all the audience needed to know.
Pretty much what I was about to comment. I would even add "Undertale is a good game..." baiting for a more developed answer, but just abruptly stopping there, because nothing more is needed.
Whenever I am presented with a moral choice, I am one of those that will invariably choose what may be the good path. There might be some evil choices along the way, but I always think of the greater good, which might be okay for a video game, but probably not as much in real life. I was already experiencing that same problem that Yahtzee said Toby Fox was calling players out on over choices, especially moral ones, and while that weight of results does tend to cripple my actions in real life, it also extends into games. If there is a point where I am going to feel sh^tty no matter what I do, I tend to shut down, both in-game and real life (and especially in the latter). Games like Spec Ops: The Line are rarities for me, and in the case of Spec Ops, it is a game that can easily be beat in a weekend, but the choices, especially the big ones, would make me stop playing. It took me nearly two months to beat the game, and gameplay time was only a few hours (dealing with the CIA agent over the city's water supply still haunts me - the emotions I felt then really made me seriously question what I would actually do if ever forced into anything even remotely resembling such a scenario in real life).
I find it weird that I pathologically choose the moral/good path in games, and if there is a non-lethal route, I will never hesitate to take it, but like Yahtzee, I am very deeply cynical about people. I never had any problems in my home growing up, and I tended to be on the optimistic side then, but as I struck out on my own, that optimism swiftly got replaced with cynicism, a lot of which came from seeing what I used to call my home be swept in things that I never thought would happen. Watching that happen and get worse and worse despite all attempts and efforts was really disheartening. It nearly brought me down to rock bottom, I was letting myself slip, until something happened (I have no idea when it happened or even what it was) that shocked me into desperate action. Maybe it came from a game, maybe not, but I knew something had to give, and I suddenly decided then that I could not let it be me.
I recognize my behaviors every time I play any game, and when I finally got around to playing Undertale, like Yahtzee, I avoided the genocide route. As deeply cynical as I am about people, I simply do not want to have to deal with them - it does not mean I want them gone, certainly not in any...permanent fashion. Maybe it is because I care too much, and games are the only way I can explore that caring without being exploited, at least not beyond emotionally (though AAA is always trying to expand exploitation beyond emotion - we all know those games aimed specifically at that and what their specific targets are).
I do not know why exactly I do what I do, but I do know that like Yahtzee, there are some things I just will not - and quite possibly never - do, either in video games or in real life, and Undertale is a good reminder to me of what at least some of those things are. So yeah, I do not blame Yahtzee at all for never giving the game a full review, though I do appreciate him explaining why he has not and likely never will.
Thank you for sharing this with us, it's almost the same with me.
It's kinda weird, logically speaking, to not be able to do evil/questionable choices in games. Imagine the amount of hours, passion and hard work devs are putting to create those choices and their consequences, but we cannot force ourselves to appreciate them. I cannot even watch them on TH-cam right after I finished the game, I'm still too invested and need time to disengage (weeks/months) before I can check them out.
This reminds me of a joke. Where one friend asks another why he always Chooses to be a goody two shoes when there is no consequence for being bad in a video game.
And the friend replies: “because my ultimate power trip is the ability to help everyone!”
Maybe the reason you play games could be to escape the old addege: 'no good deed ever goes unpunished'.
Granted I'm very much the same, although I'm still optimistic about people, but are aware that people are never perfect or in the same page.
In video games, more often than not, you can find a entirely good option and be rewarded for it, instead of in real life where you do what you think is good, only for things to either backfire, be played, or just get no feedback at all.
There was a thing in a MassEffect game that made one of the developers tweet about it flustered. In that game you can choose to ally with the Paragon or the Renegades (the bad ones) and 92% of the players only played only the Paragon version even though the developers put so much effort making the other story.
I think the fact that I messed up and killed Toriel a few times while trying to correct it and only realizing it the third time trying it that I looked like is saw a ghost made it one of my favorite games of all time. It was such a experience to be told “ I saw what you did and you tried to change it and reset it”
ive always wondered how Undertale might have been different had a handful of Toby's formative years not been spent interacting with The Hussie and his pseudo-sociopathic mindscape.
One day I hope he will write a memoir describing what that incredibly surreal experience must've been like, and I will devour it for near any price.
Just enough Faygo to get quirky but not enough to go off the reservation, if I had to guess.
Hussie as the inspiration for Flowie.
wonderful review!! Always wanted to hear you do an analysis and breakdown of good and inspiring games!
Loving these honestly. Keep them coming.
Watcher zp since the start of it's inception and still do weekly
I also have never played the kill route. I just couldnt bring myself to do it. Watched Jack play that run so i get the idea but it just hurts to hurt them.
Too boring? Yeah it was purposefully made so
@@elgatochurro This is actually the reason I don't do Frost Grave (or whatever the name). I dont want to grind...
"At least we're better than those cowards who want to see what happens if you kill everyone, but are too afraid to do it themselves. I think one of them is watching this right now, aren't they?"
- Flowey, paraphrased
If you watched it flowey explicitly calls you out and says you’re just as bad, or worse. You *should* feel just as bad about that as you would if you had done it. At that point you should just go ahead and play through it because it’s some amazing story structure. I really wish a youtuber that could put it better than I could would make a video essay explaining how strong the genocide run is and why you should go back through and give it a shot.
The conflicting emotions are part of it. *Being* the evil acting against characters you like and almost root for to beat you even as you actively try your hardest to beat hard bosses is a feeling that no other story or game has ever accomplished or likely will accomplish. I appreciate people feeling so attached to these characters they don’t want anything bad to happen to them, but not experiencing that complex surge of emotions is doing the game a disservice.
@@icarue993 Grinding is an issue with rpgs yes, but many rpgs are also removing such demands: ff14, Lisa the painful, Ara fell, and more.
RPGs are often removing the grind blocks players might find themselves in. Lisa completely removes grinding as a viable option until the end of the game, and even then its not needed. You get far more exp throughout the game by fighting the unique enemies, every person has a unique sprite and name and more, yet if you do try to fight say snakes, its not worth it. ive done it and its a waste of time, they give so little exp compared to unique enemies. helping you to just march on.
This was such a great video
A great way to end a great year at the Escapist
One more video left! 3MRs favorite games of 2021 tomorrow.
I have such an immense respect for solo creators who lay bare their mind in works that are perfectly distilled products of their own vision. I think that's something that can pretty much only occur when basically only one person is working on the meat of a project. See Don Hertzfeldt for animation, Thomas Dolby for music, and Toby Fox (and yourself) for game design. I'm very glad that you've been allowed to work creatively with seemingly minimal restrictions for your whole career. You're one of my favorite content creators because of this, and more importantly it has enabled you to be and do what you want. Keep it up.
I feel a bit like my friend who couldn't understand why I liked Dark Souls so much. He gave it a genuine go, he got to Blighttown, but he quit there and said, "look, this is not my kind of game, and frankly I don't understand the hype". And I didn't understand why he didn't like it, and I pushed him to pick up the game again until the friendship got strained.
So that's me now. I'm here representing the 1% of the 1% who doesn't get on with Undertale because it doesn't really do anything other than be super meta and experimental. I gave it a go, I really did, but I don't relate to any of the characters, I don't understand why you would want to take either the psychopath route or the "let's just be friends and all hug each other" route, I don't know why this little girl has to be so important to everyone, I don't know why the character designs are just random, none of it makes sense to me. Every few seconds the story does something bizarre and it's like, was I supposed to laugh there? Was I supposed to be confused? Because I'm not, you're just being goofy, now let me progress through the game please.
I just feel excluded from the hype.
The first reply to this comment if there is one will probably be along the lines of "no one cares what you think, go somewhere else and let us enjoy what we want". Well ok.
Hey to each their own man, there’s always going to be those things in life that just don’t mesh with you even when you give them a fair shake
Lord knows I’ve had enough games or movies that people love that just don’t interest me or that I recognise as objectively good but just don’t do it for me
Not every game’s for everyone, that’s just how it is. Undertale relies pretty heavily on you liking the characters, which I did, and most of those who played seem to have, but if you don’t that’s pretty much that.
It doesn't just be meta and experimental... most of what it follows are standard RPG elements from story to characters.
It does get meta the further you get in the game, but even then it is mostly non-meta focused...
So I want to ask a simple question... what type of games do you play?
Judging from your statement it seems anything outside of main story focus and gameplay isn't your cup of tea and unless I'm mistaken you probably don't like the bullet combat because it has the helpless phase of Dark Souls without the violent strike back and watching the corpse fall?
@@Buglin_Burger7878 Hah... Simple question... What type of food do you eat? But I hope you don't mind a long and serious answer. I have some main themes but I also branch out and try a lot of other stuff.
Interesting that you used the adjective violent. I would probably dislike Doom because it's too violent, but it makes me wonder if you shun any kind of combat.
Main theme #1 would be RPG, medieval fantasy, combat and exploration, anything with a challenge and good world building. Elder Scrolls, Dark Souls and Sekiro, Dishonored, Darksiders, Okami, Ori and the Blind Forest.
Main theme #2 would be survival/crafting, base building and multiplayer. Subnautica, Minecraft, Terraria, Stardew Valley.
My main dislikes are anything linear like Half Life or Bioshock, and FPS games. I did get into Fortnite for a bit though.
I don't get on with Roguelikes because you lose all your progress, except for Noita which is so unique it kind of makes up for the genre.
Also I spend far too much time watching T90 cast Age of Empires II games.
But I can also play a good racing game like Trackmania or puzzle game like Portal.
I think the main issue is that you didn't really like the characters, which is fine. I love them but that's just how it be.
But you also came into it with the whole "Pacifist" and "Genocide" outlook to begin with, which kind of ruins all the appeal of them. It's supposed to be that you choose who lives or dies, not what path you want to go down, and then afterwards you can go back and see what happens if you want to save/kill everyone/anyone.
"Strategic deck building gameplay" Has Yhatzee actually looked at Inscryption? I mean, there's *some* deckbuilding but it ain't MTG or some shit and that's why it works so well.
My immediate thought when I read the title of the video was, "....But you did! I remember it clearly. It went - 'Undertale is a good game...' and that was all that needed to be said between us."
So glad you made this video! Love your work!
This was a fantastic breakdown of the game and I agree with all the points you made about solo development. It's hard to do, but man do you *truly* get to experience the artist's vision in its purest form.
That was one of, if not, the best reviews Undertale could have asked for. Thanks Yahtz
A friend gifted me undertale and I wasn't enjoying the hype around it so I went in to just kill all the mobs I came across. But I did it wrong because I didn't know you had to stay and clear out everything until there was nothing left. So I restarted and did a full pacifist run, and only started enjoying it once the Undyne Date happened. The person trying to hunt you down and possibly murder you is now forced to be a supportive host in their own home and I loved it.
This video is so short but it still manages to be one of my favorite breakdowns of Undertale.
Fantastic video man. Really like how well you put all that in to words. I had a similar experience with Undertale.
6:14 - 6:27 = Someone clip that and make sure it doesn’t get deleted. It’s a rare moment when Yahtzee showed emotions.
While I didn't enjoy Undertale much I did enjoy your analysis of it and it gave me a new appreciation for a game I didn't like. I might have more success playing it now than I did when everyone was shouting from the rooftops about it.
Thank you for finally doing this. Always wondered what you really thought and was always sad we never got a zp on it.
I missed EP. Glad to see it back and now in even more entertaining form. Yay!
This is just genuinely an excellent video. Thanks Yahtzee.
I can relate to this. I tend to platinum games I play, no matter how hard and tedious they get(Looking at you, Yakuza), but the other exception was in Danganronpa wherein one achievement required me to betray a character I really like to access all the endings.
I settled on no. Killing Priscilla in DS1 and Isshin and Emma in Sekiro was already painful I'm not gonna do that on all other games.
Weakling.
These are slowly becoming my faves, good stuff.
I'm really enjoying the slower and more introspective videos Yahtzee is putting out. Looking forward to more
I have never seen that bed scene. That's hilarious
0:43 I think I've just developed a true respect for Yahtzee. I can completely understand why he'd wait till the whole thing is done. Projects can go un-finished. It's better to have no story than half a story.
Interesting sentiment. You think world would be richer for it if Half-life never was?
Not arguing just curious.
@@MrSamulai I think it'd be richer if there was half life, and half life 2. Nothing after. Let G-man store Freeman away, and we never know what truly happens after that. But the world is left in a better state than it was in. The combine are gone. The people can re-build. All is well in the world.
Can't describe how much I like this video! Keep em coming man
"Existentially Challenged" is as expected a really nice read/listen Thanks for that Yahtzee keep the Audiobooks coming
I feel the exact same about never doing the genocide run. What a game, what a story.
I never finished Undertale, and I am really sad I have not yet. Close to the end of the game I understood that my first meaningful action in the game has undermined everything else I did in the game, so I decided to replay it, but never finished. Have to get there
Getting locked out of the "good" ending by killing enemies and bosses... the kind of thing you do in ALL RPGs in existence...is a bit of a pisser.
Moreover, the lack of feedback during the first few attempts to spare the first boss is a bit irritating too. I totally thought that mercy wouldn't work on her and that I was SUPPOSE to kill her.
I get the whole subversion angle, but it can be frustrating at times, I totally understand.
Well i just played the game. Im not good with bullethell games so i known that i will have to kill and get stronger to go through the game. After that playthrough that i think i only killed toriel and fish lady (its been a few years) where it comes to bosses i did the pacifist go and was far better at playing then the first time i played so it was doable. Still i remember the first time sans asked me to think about all those i killed and i was like "yea it sucked but i sucked too much to not do it" out laud like really talking to him.
Normally I would agree with this thread; morality systems are a pain, but Undertale is a really short game. I'm more willing to forgive it due to it's short length.
Though I do understand being reluctant to replay it immediately to fix your mistakes and get the True ending. I just did it because I loved the game so much; I was eager to see these characters again.
It's literally as long as a COD campaign (3-4 hours), although the True (Pacifist) ending is about 2 hours longer. It's short as fuck.
these are superb. EP is a fantastic addition. cheers fella 👍
Best review I've seen of it, and the only one that made me intrigued enough to try it out. Let's go