Is there a writing craft book that upended your expectations (whether it was better or worse than you expected)? This one was the biggest disappointment for me so far!
Stephen King’s On Writing far exceeded my expectations for it. And I think it’s for the opposite reasons as to why you dislike this book. King also has a very strong stance in that he discouraged plotting a novel ahead of time, but he says it (even in the audio book you can hear this in his tone) in such a way that he still realizes that it could very well just work for him. I was so surprised that I got as much as I did from his book mostly because of a lot of the technical differences in how I approach writing. I see now why people rave so much about it
@@kyraandreatta4522 I loved that book too. I'm a total plotter, but never felt judged by the way he approached his pantsing descriptions. I felt like there wasn't necessarily a huge amount of take away from On Writing, but it made you really want to get out and try. The inspirational aspect of it was great. Also, it was the reason I started using audiobooks (life changing). I figured if Stephen King counts audiobooks so can I 🤣.
I just finished Matt Bird's Secret of Story and it ended up exceeding my expectations! I'll admit I went into it rather skeptical, since I read SO many writing books/blogs and after a while it all gets pretty similar. But Secrets of Story actually brought new insights and teachings to me-like the inciting incident being 3 parts instead of just one event and focusing less on a "save the cat" scene, but instead generating *identification* between reader and hero since that's more powerful than just sympathy)...and that having your character be misunderstood is one of the best ways to have your readers identify with him/her. I actually was able to have a little bit of a breakthrough in my own story's plot because of the book, which I'm really excited about! I'm going to be checking out his newer book on characters, hopefully it's as helpful-or even moreso!-as Secrets of Story :)
@@kyraandreatta4522 It's the only book on the craft of writing that I've ever found any use. All writing advice is basically the same anyway, and most of it is rubbish.
I feel like her stance on Pantsing mimics my own experience with trying it- I too felt like the method left my ideas, plots and characters all over the place. Similarly, the sheer amount of option was overwhelming to me which was nice to hear wasn't an issue just myself experiences. But I do agree her tone against pantsing is overly harsh... What works for some might not work for others and such. People just need to try out both methods and see what works for them. I did find a lot of tips really useful though and would probably recommend it to friends so long as they don't take her personal opinions to heart too much.
I think the thing is that she actually has more of a marketing background - so I can imagine her target audience often doesn't have a literary background. Misbelief did happen to be the perfect word to for my current project (and I'm interested in neuroscience) so I really enjoyed a lecture by her that I found on TH-cam. From what you said though I think I've got just about everything from that and probably won't read her books.
I didn't get an elitist tone from the book. Quite the opposite; she went out of her way to say how smart and thoughtful other writers were, even when their novels weren't working. The point of Story Genius is to save you time, time that you risk wasting if you do pantsing or plotting. So of course she's not going to say, "all methods are equally valid and useful". Having a strong opinion is not elitist.
Everyone gets something different from a book, I'm glad this one worked for you! I agree you can have a strong opinion without being elitist, but that's just how the tone came across to me personally. I agree it can be useful and save people a lot of time, there is great information in it and I know most people love it :)
Funny, you pointed out some of her strengths highlighted in the book. That we should focus on the misbelief of the character for the internal conflict before we focus on the plot. I agree totally, and reading her book has inspired me to continue revamping a book I’ve had for a while that was going nowhere. I felt the time to read her book was well spent and again gave me great insight into the internal conflict, misbelief and or fatal flaw. I am not concerned that she is not published, because her words again gave me the inspiration and spark to reevaluate my own work and make it better. For that I am grateful
As a supplement read, read James Scott Bell's Write Your Novel From the Middle. You'll get additional (if not better) insight to drive your character and plot. I think he has simpler and stronger examples than the singular sample Cron uses.
@@readerturnedwriter Yes! Me too! After I finished Story Genius, I struggled in finding a solid place to start! Cron's backstory method is a fine rule to write by but the lack of story structure led my book to a messy place. Bell's flow and approach to writing was far easier to follow.
Check out 'How To Write Killer Fiction' by Carolyn Wheat. Out of the 400+ craft of writing books in my library, this one is in my top 3. Great for new authors as well as people who are further along the chain.
I thought many of the scenarios her model writer came up with were illogical, forced, or even prosaic, despite the fact that Cron emphasizes the way both plot and story should follow a logical progression. Example: in an early example, she has her main character Ruby deciding that, based on the devastation that her friend Beth is experiencing following the death of her father, she will never let herself get close to anyone. I though a FAR better scenario would be if Ruby felt as if she were more as part of the Anderson family than her own (which Cron does state), but when she is locked out of the family's private mourning, she has no one to turn to.
Interesting! I hadn't noticed that when I read it. I know a lot of people love it and I can see the good in the book, but I do think it was over hyped.
My biggest issue with the example story was that she still killed off Henry. Like, what was the point in learning all the main character did if she can't actually realise and act on her misbeliefs since it's too late? But I did understand character driven plot better after reading this. The theory at least made sense despite the execution x)
Great review! I made it to 70% and marked it DNF. I couldn't take it anymore. You described how I felt. Hated the tone. Hated the "branding" of old things using new terms. And there is a LOT of filler. A lot. I also found the hyped up "Brain Science" to be pseudo science at best. And there's some stuff I just flat out didn't agree with. I skimmed a lot of this book. I did get one good nugget from the book. The exercises on writing the "worldview origin scene" and the three scenes that track and support that worldview (I forget her terms for it) was great. I enjoyed doing those. But I didn't get any other take-a-ways from the rest of the book. Well, the rest of the book that I read. To be fair, I've read a lot of craft books, so maybe I'd feel differently if this was my first one? But the tone of "everything you've learned before is wrong" would have killed it for me regardless.
I definitely don’t agree with everything she said like story isn’t entertainment which is untrue there are stories I can think of that are just that and are successful. Did she really think that people haven’t shared stories to get a laugh to have a good time at a party and only for survival?? The way of the househusband comes to mind when story is just entertainment. I’m there for the laughs, not to be preached. I like her stuff like her suggestions to getting to the point but she has some very rigid beliefs. I can move past it and I think she gets into what a lot of series forget which is story’s why. She would be great as an editor. Honestly her method really help me develop asking why and important questions. It helped me nail on my message and gave more focus. Which refreshing over people who just treat story like a paint by number or shooting in the dark. Those ideas may work but also very frustrating for a new writer. I felt lost in both. I didn’t appreciate the way she dissed others methods cause that’s all they are METHODS and tools useful to know to try at least once. I went in with taking her advice like a grain of salt I kept going “ yup yup Lisa is on her sermon again. Let’s move forward” haha 😂
i kind of get what u mean, my way or the highway vibe but maybe she's just really passionate or something. But she did work as an editor and also story analist for Disney or so so. Maybe it's not fair to compare her against other authors. I think there are a lot of editors and story analiststs, etc. that just don't write for themselves but just like co-writers help famous singers for writing an album with them and not be a celebrity themselves.
Interesting. I didn’t think to check on what stories she’s actually written. I think it’s because novels aren’t the only way storytelling is used. Storytelling can be used in sales, it can be used in public speaking, it can be used in branding, etc. I definitely see your point about her tone though. I guess it didn’t bother me too much because I think if it’s your book and I read it, I’m going to assume it’s filled with your opinions. I think her points would have been more potent if she actually used storytelling to teach the art of story like Francis Glebas does in his book Directing the Story.
That is really true about story telling! I don't think it would bother me if I had been able to get past the tone. But I agree that more story telling could have helped it!
What you point out about her not having written a novel yet is a really good pointl There was something bothering me about 8t all after my first reaction to discovering Story Genius recentlg, and it took me a ehile to realise " Oh, she hasn't *written* a book. So, I still find it interesting and the " m8sheld belief" was a gamechanger for me, but I'm thinking that and the point about asking the roght questions " why does it matter?" For every chapter and working 9ut backstory before you start a book is really helpful. I'm just not sure I want to do my book planning this way religously
I agree that the tone of this book was so annoying! She addressed readers as if they were little children with no experience at all. The way she went on and on explaining the analogies was so frustrating. I am finding some of the info helpful, so that's why I've continued reading it. My favorite craft book (which really has a lot of the same stuff as this one but it much better written) is Story Trumps Structure, by Steven James.
Yes! Thank you. I had the same problem with that elitist tone. I listened to the audiobook version first, and that haughty, holier than thou voice came through. It was off-putting for me too. 4.23 out of 5 stars over goodreads today, and I'm left wondering why. I guess people can really ignore such things; I'm envious. Good on them ;)
I now have over 500 craft of writing books in my collection, so it's difficult. However, for me, I would pick Goal, Motivation & Conflict by Debra Dixon and How To Write A Damn Good Thriller by James N. Frey. He also has other titles and I would recommend any of them. But remember, I write crime thrillers. That might not be your genre. Something else I can recommend is 'The Monster Novel Structure Workbook' by R.B. Fleetwood. I hope these help.
Funnily enough (and I don't mean this in an offensive way) I read the title and thought it was written by a man. Simply because it was such an aggressive and assume-y way to position the book. Felt very "mansplainy" then I was really surprised to see a female name below it. This video sort of confirms my gut reaction. Thx for the warning.
I just started the audiobook of this and what you said about her tone is something I noticed from the intro unfortunately. There's this tone of superiority and condescension that is rather off-putting, but I'm gonna continue to give the book a chance and see if I get anything from it. Hopefully it's as "revolutionary" to me as it was for others, but we'll see.
I have just barely started reading the book, but I already have issues with it. The way she defines story, the most important concept in the entire book, bothers me: "A story is about how the things that happen affect someone in pursuit of a difficult goal, and how that person changes internally as a result." I understand that, for many stories, the internal struggle is the linchpin that makes them meaningful. I completely agree with that. But pretending that it is mandatory for something to even be considered a story is ludicrous. Does Miss Marple change as a person every time she solves a mystery? She applies all her previous accumulated wisdom, the changes she already made in life, to address the mystery from a point of view no one else could have. And the tale of how she manages to do that _is_ a story, no matter what Lisa Cron's definition suggests. A few paragraphs later she addresses the "cozy mystery" counterargument, saying that the "why" is the internal layer, but she had explicitly mentioned that the "someone" in the definition is "the protagonist". So is commiting a crime a story but solving it is not, then? And what about "tales" without "why"? What about "The Andromeda Strain", by Michael Crichton? The pathogen doesn't have an internal life, that we know of... All these things might be properly addressed later on in the book, but I doubt I will ever know. I am aware I'm too caught up in the definition, but I suppose I'm too much of an engineer. I need a solid foundation. And at this point I really need to know what makes something "a story" (as opposed to a character sketch or an anecdote, as many books mention but I still haven't seen properly explained) so that I can, well, find "the story" I want (or need) to write...
Hey there. Great review of the book. Im currently above half way, and I also find it repetitive, but with bits of usefulness around the filler. Cheers!
I'm literally only like 25 pages in and am kinda... offput? I read the pantsing section and i think she totally didn't get what pantsers even do fully? It made it sound like "if you write a draft on the seat of your pants then immediately publish it, it's going to be a bad book" Which, yeah, is kinda true, but it's not what pantsers do. From what I know, they more use their pantsed draft as a super long outline, then fix it up. There was also a phrase she used thats like "if there's no past, there can be no present" which came off to me like she thinks pantsers don't even think about what story they want to write, maybe big plot points, characters, etc; that they just sit down and shit out words.... which?? They may not write out a detailed outline of events but they still know the general direction they're going?? I dunno. I'll keep reading on but it just sounds to me like she doesn't even understand what other writers do, which feeds into that "it's my way or the highway" thing
Yeah I think any book (outlined or not) that is just immediately published probably won't be the greatest 🤷 and I'm not a panster, but I felt a lot of the same things in her tone!
I couldn't put my finger on it why i had a weird feeling reading this book. thank you for bringing this up! if she is coaching she may be trying to get someone unstuck and get them to committ to a method? i dunno. It reminded me of MLM sales pitches> the audio book is awesome for her other craft book and same style but much more content I found useful as an advanced writer and storyteller. Side note, I love your ring! is it silicone? so pretty.
Yes, MLM sales pitch is the perfect description! And yes, it's silicone 🙂 my wedding ring is my grandmother's so I wear the silicone one most of the time to keep it safe. Thank you!
I have an E-book version of Story Genius and once I stepped into Part 3 I was kind of thrown off. I have no idea why, but it's kind of... I don't know... not for me, I guess? I hope you make a video about books on writing that you really liked and learned with. Also, thank goodness I have KM Weiland books so I'm not totally reading things that aren't that helpful than it's perceived to be. Thanks!
That's interesting! I wonder why. I plan to make some on books I loved as well! I should do one on Save the Cat Writes a Novel, since it's my favorite 🙂 I've read one by KM Weiland and really liked it!
Reading it right now...I like her writing style, but have mixed feelings about the method. Have you read the "Snowflake method"? Thank you for this great video (by the way: love your library in the background :))
I wonder how this book compares to her newer version called Story or Die; and if it fixes some of the issues you mention. It seems to cover the same topic areas but I haven't read it.
Great review! This was on my TBR of craft books to read at some point since, like you, I'd heard a lot of good things about it. I didn't realize Lisa wasn't a published author, though! Does she address that at all in the book? That seems like such a weird trait if you're writing a craft book.
You still might find some useful information in it! She doesn't really address it in the book, but she might in her other book (it came first, I think). She gives her credentials as coming from her coaching.
She mentioned it somewhere. Actually I loved the idea about being as concrete as possible and asking right questions. I think it was her perspective as a coach 😁
I definitely don't like the 'my way or no way' thing. I didn't know she wasn't published, but that makes it even worse. So many accomplished authors do the opposite. Thank you for the review. After hearing your review I am not quite sure if this is the right craft book for me. Looking forward to the next review!
Thank you for the review and the warning of her tone!! I bought a copy yesterday for my Kindle! I've been trying to write/ polish my book for over a year, and I was stuck because I was focusing on the external events rather than the evolution of my character! I'm glad I have an idea of what lies ahead with the content of her book, so I can use it objectively.
@@readerturnedwriter Thank you! So far, the part about the inner conflict and the protagonist's past has really helped identify what my book is really about. I've managed to ignore the tone and use the book objectively! haha I definitely appreciate your input for sure! I hope you continue to review books on your channel!
I feel like we read two different books. Telling the truth isn't 'insulting' an author's writing or being superior. RL James and Dan Brown NAIL story, but they're terrible stylists - but because they nail story, they sell - while other, better stylists sell only 100 copies because they never learned to nail story despite their prose being breathtaking - this is what she's trying to explain. But yeah, call her smug, that works. I guess. MOST IMPORTANTLY you do NOT have to write a novel yourself to know when a story doesn't work. Most editors aren't writers - but they know if a story is any good or not. Script readers - which I am one, in addition to novel writing - are the ones who see your screenplay before anyone else. We have to read the screenplay, write a logline, provide a synopsis, character breakdown, info on marketability and expenses (period pieces are expensive to film, special effects are expensive, etc...) give our own opinions and then either grade the script a Recommend, Strong Consider, Consider, Consider with Reservations, or Pass - and send it back. MOST screenplays are passes - probably 98% if not higher, because they haven't nailed story, and if I send a poor script back and my coverage rates it anything but a pass - no one will trust my judgement again. But you have to be constructive and kind, esp. in contests because you never know if the writer will see your coverage and you never want to be the one who stops someone from writing by writing something awful. I liked this book because it gave me the verbiage to explain in words what I only knew intuitively when I read, but couldn't explain properly when I had to write it down. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO HAVE TO BE A PUBLISHED WRITER TO KNOW WHEN A BOOK IS BAD OR TO KNOW HOW STORY WORKS. I dare anyone to tell their editor she doesn't know how story works and that she has no idea what she's talking about because she hasn't written a book herself. You can hate the book, but Cron has serious editing chops and she does know what she's talking about. Simply being a writer doesn't mean you know what you're talking about - anymore than someone who edits for a living instead of writing doesn't mean they don't know what they're talking about. Looking at the number of boring or awful books out there, too many writers don't know anything about story.
Reading the book now and I totally agree, she makes some really useful points but her style is so off-putting. The way she dismisses all other approaches makes it seem like there must be no good books out there (or the only good books must have been written by special unicorns who magically write well, because every single writing system is wrong).
I follow you on Instagram but I didn’t know you had a YT channel until today! 😍 Loved hearing your thoughts on this book. I’ve tried to start it multiple times and, I agree, it has a pretentious tone and I didn’t appreciate the long-winded, repetitive explanations. I do like how it helped me to focus on my MC’s misbelief/journey though, and how I should make that my main focus in my book.
Thank you! I think part of the problem for me was all the hype--o was expecting it to be game changing, like Save the Cat was for me, and it just wasn't 🤷
Is there a writing craft book that upended your expectations (whether it was better or worse than you expected)? This one was the biggest disappointment for me so far!
Stephen King’s On Writing far exceeded my expectations for it. And I think it’s for the opposite reasons as to why you dislike this book. King also has a very strong stance in that he discouraged plotting a novel ahead of time, but he says it (even in the audio book you can hear this in his tone) in such a way that he still realizes that it could very well just work for him. I was so surprised that I got as much as I did from his book mostly because of a lot of the technical differences in how I approach writing. I see now why people rave so much about it
@@kyraandreatta4522 I loved that book too. I'm a total plotter, but never felt judged by the way he approached his pantsing descriptions. I felt like there wasn't necessarily a huge amount of take away from On Writing, but it made you really want to get out and try. The inspirational aspect of it was great. Also, it was the reason I started using audiobooks (life changing). I figured if Stephen King counts audiobooks so can I 🤣.
I just finished Matt Bird's Secret of Story and it ended up exceeding my expectations! I'll admit I went into it rather skeptical, since I read SO many writing books/blogs and after a while it all gets pretty similar. But Secrets of Story actually brought new insights and teachings to me-like the inciting incident being 3 parts instead of just one event and focusing less on a "save the cat" scene, but instead generating *identification* between reader and hero since that's more powerful than just sympathy)...and that having your character be misunderstood is one of the best ways to have your readers identify with him/her.
I actually was able to have a little bit of a breakthrough in my own story's plot because of the book, which I'm really excited about! I'm going to be checking out his newer book on characters, hopefully it's as helpful-or even moreso!-as Secrets of Story :)
@@kyraandreatta4522 It's the only book on the craft of writing that I've ever found any use. All writing advice is basically the same anyway, and most of it is rubbish.
I feel like her stance on Pantsing mimics my own experience with trying it- I too felt like the method left my ideas, plots and characters all over the place. Similarly, the sheer amount of option was overwhelming to me which was nice to hear wasn't an issue just myself experiences. But I do agree her tone against pantsing is overly harsh... What works for some might not work for others and such. People just need to try out both methods and see what works for them. I did find a lot of tips really useful though and would probably recommend it to friends so long as they don't take her personal opinions to heart too much.
I think the thing is that she actually has more of a marketing background - so I can imagine her target audience often doesn't have a literary background. Misbelief did happen to be the perfect word to for my current project (and I'm interested in neuroscience) so I really enjoyed a lecture by her that I found on TH-cam. From what you said though I think I've got just about everything from that and probably won't read her books.
I didn't get an elitist tone from the book. Quite the opposite; she went out of her way to say how smart and thoughtful other writers were, even when their novels weren't working.
The point of Story Genius is to save you time, time that you risk wasting if you do pantsing or plotting. So of course she's not going to say, "all methods are equally valid and useful". Having a strong opinion is not elitist.
Everyone gets something different from a book, I'm glad this one worked for you! I agree you can have a strong opinion without being elitist, but that's just how the tone came across to me personally. I agree it can be useful and save people a lot of time, there is great information in it and I know most people love it :)
Funny, you pointed out some of her strengths highlighted in the book. That we should focus on the misbelief of the character for the internal conflict before we focus on the plot. I agree totally, and reading her book has inspired me to continue revamping a book I’ve had for a while that was going nowhere. I felt the time to read her book was well spent and again gave me great insight into the internal conflict, misbelief and or fatal flaw. I am not concerned that she is not published, because her words again gave me the inspiration and spark to reevaluate my own work and make it better. For that I am grateful
As a supplement read, read James Scott Bell's Write Your Novel From the Middle. You'll get additional (if not better) insight to drive your character and plot. I think he has simpler and stronger examples than the singular sample Cron uses.
I don't think I've read a book that didn't have at least some positives, and this one did have a lot! I'm glad the book was so inspiring for you ♥️
@@readerturnedwriter Yes! Me too! After I finished Story Genius, I struggled in finding a solid place to start! Cron's backstory method is a fine rule to write by but the lack of story structure led my book to a messy place. Bell's flow and approach to writing was far easier to follow.
Check out 'How To Write Killer Fiction' by Carolyn Wheat. Out of the 400+ craft of writing books in my library, this one is in my top 3. Great for new authors as well as people who are further along the chain.
Wow, that is a lot of craft books! I will definitely check it out, thank you 🙂
I thought many of the scenarios her model writer came up with were illogical, forced, or even prosaic, despite the fact that Cron emphasizes the way both plot and story should follow a logical progression.
Example: in an early example, she has her main character Ruby deciding that, based on the devastation that her friend Beth is experiencing following the death of her father, she will never let herself get close to anyone. I though a FAR better scenario would be if Ruby felt as if she were more as part of the Anderson family than her own (which Cron does state), but when she is locked out of the family's private mourning, she has no one to turn to.
Interesting! I hadn't noticed that when I read it. I know a lot of people love it and I can see the good in the book, but I do think it was over hyped.
I like your suggestion better Douglas!
My biggest issue with the example story was that she still killed off Henry. Like, what was the point in learning all the main character did if she can't actually realise and act on her misbeliefs since it's too late? But I did understand character driven plot better after reading this. The theory at least made sense despite the execution x)
Great review! I made it to 70% and marked it DNF. I couldn't take it anymore. You described how I felt. Hated the tone. Hated the "branding" of old things using new terms. And there is a LOT of filler. A lot. I also found the hyped up "Brain Science" to be pseudo science at best. And there's some stuff I just flat out didn't agree with. I skimmed a lot of this book. I did get one good nugget from the book. The exercises on writing the "worldview origin scene" and the three scenes that track and support that worldview (I forget her terms for it) was great. I enjoyed doing those. But I didn't get any other take-a-ways from the rest of the book. Well, the rest of the book that I read. To be fair, I've read a lot of craft books, so maybe I'd feel differently if this was my first one? But the tone of "everything you've learned before is wrong" would have killed it for me regardless.
I definitely don’t agree with everything she said like story isn’t entertainment which is untrue there are stories I can think of that are just that and are successful.
Did she really think that people haven’t shared stories to get a laugh to have a good time at a party and only for survival??
The way of the househusband comes to mind when story is just entertainment. I’m there for the laughs, not to be preached.
I like her stuff like her suggestions to getting to the point but she has some very rigid beliefs.
I can move past it and I think she gets into what a lot of series forget which is story’s why. She would be great as an editor. Honestly her method really help me develop asking why and important questions. It helped me nail on my message and gave more focus. Which refreshing over people who just treat story like a paint by number or shooting in the dark. Those ideas may work but also very frustrating for a new writer. I felt lost in both.
I didn’t appreciate the way she dissed others methods cause that’s all they are METHODS and tools useful to know to try at least once.
I went in with taking her advice like a grain of salt I kept going “ yup yup Lisa is on her sermon again. Let’s move forward” haha 😂
i kind of get what u mean, my way or the highway vibe but maybe she's just really passionate or something. But she did work as an editor and also story analist for Disney or so so. Maybe it's not fair to compare her against other authors. I think there are a lot of editors and story analiststs, etc. that just don't write for themselves but just like co-writers help famous singers for writing an album with them and not be a celebrity themselves.
Interesting. I didn’t think to check on what stories she’s actually written. I think it’s because novels aren’t the only way storytelling is used. Storytelling can be used in sales, it can be used in public speaking, it can be used in branding, etc. I definitely see your point about her tone though. I guess it didn’t bother me too much because I think if it’s your book and I read it, I’m going to assume it’s filled with your opinions. I think her points would have been more potent if she actually used storytelling to teach the art of story like Francis Glebas does in his book Directing the Story.
That is really true about story telling! I don't think it would bother me if I had been able to get past the tone. But I agree that more story telling could have helped it!
What you point out about her not having written a novel yet is a really good pointl There was something bothering me about 8t all after my first reaction to discovering Story Genius recentlg, and it took me a ehile to realise " Oh, she hasn't *written* a book. So, I still find it interesting and the " m8sheld belief" was a gamechanger for me, but I'm thinking that and the point about asking the roght questions " why does it matter?" For every chapter and working 9ut backstory before you start a book is really helpful. I'm just not sure I want to do my book planning this way religously
I agree that the tone of this book was so annoying! She addressed readers as if they were little children with no experience at all. The way she went on and on explaining the analogies was so frustrating. I am finding some of the info helpful, so that's why I've continued reading it. My favorite craft book (which really has a lot of the same stuff as this one but it much better written) is Story Trumps Structure, by Steven James.
I'm going to add Story Trumps Structure to my TBR, thanks for the rec!
Yes! Thank you. I had the same problem with that elitist tone. I listened to the audiobook version first, and that haughty, holier than thou voice came through. It was off-putting for me too. 4.23 out of 5 stars over goodreads today, and I'm left wondering why. I guess people can really ignore such things; I'm envious. Good on them ;)
I'm glad to hear I wasn't alone!
I love this kind of analysis of story-telling and character arcs!
Me too!
I now have over 500 craft of writing books in my collection, so it's difficult. However, for me, I would pick Goal, Motivation & Conflict by Debra Dixon and How To Write A Damn Good Thriller by James N. Frey. He also has other titles and I would recommend any of them. But remember, I write crime thrillers. That might not be your genre. Something else I can recommend is 'The Monster Novel Structure Workbook' by R.B. Fleetwood. I hope these help.
Funnily enough (and I don't mean this in an offensive way) I read the title and thought it was written by a man. Simply because it was such an aggressive and assume-y way to position the book. Felt very "mansplainy" then I was really surprised to see a female name below it. This video sort of confirms my gut reaction. Thx for the warning.
Yeah the tone was not the greatest for me 😕
I’ve read such mixed reviews on this book. People hate it or love it. I’m reading it now, so we’ll see! Thanks for the review. ♥️
I've noticed the same thing with it!
I just started the audiobook of this and what you said about her tone is something I noticed from the intro unfortunately. There's this tone of superiority and condescension that is rather off-putting, but I'm gonna continue to give the book a chance and see if I get anything from it. Hopefully it's as "revolutionary" to me as it was for others, but we'll see.
I hope you got some good info out of it!
I have just barely started reading the book, but I already have issues with it. The way she defines story, the most important concept in the entire book, bothers me:
"A story is about how the things that happen affect someone in pursuit of a difficult goal, and how that person changes internally as a result."
I understand that, for many stories, the internal struggle is the linchpin that makes them meaningful. I completely agree with that. But pretending that it is mandatory for something to even be considered a story is ludicrous.
Does Miss Marple change as a person every time she solves a mystery? She applies all her previous accumulated wisdom, the changes she already made in life, to address the mystery from a point of view no one else could have. And the tale of how she manages to do that _is_ a story, no matter what Lisa Cron's definition suggests.
A few paragraphs later she addresses the "cozy mystery" counterargument, saying that the "why" is the internal layer, but she had explicitly mentioned that the "someone" in the definition is "the protagonist". So is commiting a crime a story but solving it is not, then?
And what about "tales" without "why"? What about "The Andromeda Strain", by Michael Crichton? The pathogen doesn't have an internal life, that we know of...
All these things might be properly addressed later on in the book, but I doubt I will ever know. I am aware I'm too caught up in the definition, but I suppose I'm too much of an engineer. I need a solid foundation. And at this point I really need to know what makes something "a story" (as opposed to a character sketch or an anecdote, as many books mention but I still haven't seen properly explained) so that I can, well, find "the story" I want (or need) to write...
It can be hard to get past big differences of opinion!
Hey there. Great review of the book. Im currently above half way, and I also find it repetitive, but with bits of usefulness around the filler. Cheers!
Thanks for watching! There are definitely gems of usefulness in this one 😊
I'm literally only like 25 pages in and am kinda... offput? I read the pantsing section and i think she totally didn't get what pantsers even do fully?
It made it sound like "if you write a draft on the seat of your pants then immediately publish it, it's going to be a bad book"
Which, yeah, is kinda true, but it's not what pantsers do. From what I know, they more use their pantsed draft as a super long outline, then fix it up.
There was also a phrase she used thats like "if there's no past, there can be no present" which came off to me like she thinks pantsers don't even think about what story they want to write, maybe big plot points, characters, etc; that they just sit down and shit out words.... which??
They may not write out a detailed outline of events but they still know the general direction they're going??
I dunno. I'll keep reading on but it just sounds to me like she doesn't even understand what other writers do, which feeds into that "it's my way or the highway" thing
Yeah I think any book (outlined or not) that is just immediately published probably won't be the greatest 🤷 and I'm not a panster, but I felt a lot of the same things in her tone!
I also just found Jerry Jenkins website and method. He wrote several book on how t. And sold 60,000,000 copies of his novels.
Very cool! That's a lot of sales!
I couldn't put my finger on it why i had a weird feeling reading this book. thank you for bringing this up! if she is coaching she may be trying to get someone unstuck and get them to committ to a method? i dunno. It reminded me of MLM sales pitches> the audio book is awesome for her other craft book and same style but much more content I found useful as an advanced writer and storyteller.
Side note, I love your ring! is it silicone? so pretty.
Yes, MLM sales pitch is the perfect description! And yes, it's silicone 🙂 my wedding ring is my grandmother's so I wear the silicone one most of the time to keep it safe. Thank you!
I have an E-book version of Story Genius and once I stepped into Part 3 I was kind of thrown off. I have no idea why, but it's kind of... I don't know... not for me, I guess? I hope you make a video about books on writing that you really liked and learned with. Also, thank goodness I have KM Weiland books so I'm not totally reading things that aren't that helpful than it's perceived to be. Thanks!
That's interesting! I wonder why. I plan to make some on books I loved as well! I should do one on Save the Cat Writes a Novel, since it's my favorite 🙂 I've read one by KM Weiland and really liked it!
Reading it right now...I like her writing style, but have mixed feelings about the method. Have you read the "Snowflake method"? Thank you for this great video (by the way: love your library in the background :))
I haven't read the snowflake method, though I've heard others talk about it. Is it a book? And thank you!
I wonder how this book compares to her newer version called Story or Die; and if it fixes some of the issues you mention. It seems to cover the same topic areas but I haven't read it.
Hmm that is interesting! I wonder too. If you end up reading it, you'll have to let me know!
Great review! This was on my TBR of craft books to read at some point since, like you, I'd heard a lot of good things about it. I didn't realize Lisa wasn't a published author, though! Does she address that at all in the book? That seems like such a weird trait if you're writing a craft book.
You still might find some useful information in it! She doesn't really address it in the book, but she might in her other book (it came first, I think). She gives her credentials as coming from her coaching.
She mentioned it somewhere. Actually I loved the idea about being as concrete as possible and asking right questions. I think it was her perspective as a coach 😁
I definitely don't like the 'my way or no way' thing. I didn't know she wasn't published, but that makes it even worse. So many accomplished authors do the opposite. Thank you for the review. After hearing your review I am not quite sure if this is the right craft book for me. Looking forward to the next review!
I know a lot that are opposite as well, and I prefer that!
I ask about writing lecturer, Brando Skyhorse, how good is his method?
Hmm, I don't think I've heard of him! What does he write?
@@readerturnedwriter The Madonnas of Echo Park, lectures on record in Coursera from the Weslyan University
I haven't read this one. I've read her other writing book, though. It wasn't my favorite. Thanks for the review :)
I have her other book, but am probably going to unhaul it without reading it, unfortunately. Thanks for watching!
@@readerturnedwriter I don't blame you lol
Thank you for the review and the warning of her tone!! I bought a copy yesterday for my Kindle! I've been trying to write/ polish my book for over a year, and I was stuck because I was focusing on the external events rather than the evolution of my character! I'm glad I have an idea of what lies ahead with the content of her book, so I can use it objectively.
I hope you get a lot out of it, despite the tone!
@@readerturnedwriter Thank you! So far, the part about the inner conflict and the protagonist's past has really helped identify what my book is really about. I've managed to ignore the tone and use the book objectively! haha I definitely appreciate your input for sure! I hope you continue to review books on your channel!
I feel like we read two different books. Telling the truth isn't 'insulting' an author's writing or being superior. RL James and Dan Brown NAIL story, but they're terrible stylists - but because they nail story, they sell - while other, better stylists sell only 100 copies because they never learned to nail story despite their prose being breathtaking - this is what she's trying to explain. But yeah, call her smug, that works. I guess.
MOST IMPORTANTLY you do NOT have to write a novel yourself to know when a story doesn't work. Most editors aren't writers - but they know if a story is any good or not. Script readers - which I am one, in addition to novel writing - are the ones who see your screenplay before anyone else. We have to read the screenplay, write a logline, provide a synopsis, character breakdown, info on marketability and expenses (period pieces are expensive to film, special effects are expensive, etc...) give our own opinions and then either grade the script a Recommend, Strong Consider, Consider, Consider with Reservations, or Pass - and send it back. MOST screenplays are passes - probably 98% if not higher, because they haven't nailed story, and if I send a poor script back and my coverage rates it anything but a pass - no one will trust my judgement again.
But you have to be constructive and kind, esp. in contests because you never know if the writer will see your coverage and you never want to be the one who stops someone from writing by writing something awful. I liked this book because it gave me the verbiage to explain in words what I only knew intuitively when I read, but couldn't explain properly when I had to write it down.
YOU DO NOT HAVE TO HAVE TO BE A PUBLISHED WRITER TO KNOW WHEN A BOOK IS BAD OR TO KNOW HOW STORY WORKS. I dare anyone to tell their editor she doesn't know how story works and that she has no idea what she's talking about because she hasn't written a book herself. You can hate the book, but Cron has serious editing chops and she does know what she's talking about. Simply being a writer doesn't mean you know what you're talking about - anymore than someone who edits for a living instead of writing doesn't mean they don't know what they're talking about. Looking at the number of boring or awful books out there, too many writers don't know anything about story.
Reading the book now and I totally agree, she makes some really useful points but her style is so off-putting. The way she dismisses all other approaches makes it seem like there must be no good books out there (or the only good books must have been written by special unicorns who magically write well, because every single writing system is wrong).
I follow you on Instagram but I didn’t know you had a YT channel until today! 😍 Loved hearing your thoughts on this book. I’ve tried to start it multiple times and, I agree, it has a pretentious tone and I didn’t appreciate the long-winded, repetitive explanations. I do like how it helped me to focus on my MC’s misbelief/journey though, and how I should make that my main focus in my book.
I'm so glad you're here! I thought the information was great too! I wish the tone was different, I'd recommend it up there with Save the Cat!
You've described my thoughts exactly as I read this book. Thanks for the review!
Awesome! I'm glad I'm not alone with it 🙂
I love the way you organized this review and this was in my list for awhile but I was afraid it was overhyped haha.
Thank you! I think part of the problem for me was all the hype--o was expecting it to be game changing, like Save the Cat was for me, and it just wasn't 🤷