George Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept Critical Review Part 3

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 พ.ย. 2024

ความคิดเห็น • 51

  • @eliyahufranz5213
    @eliyahufranz5213 4 ปีที่แล้ว +7

    Yes, I understand and agree with what Reed has written about the connection of the major/minor scale system with those cultural goal-oriented characteristics mentioned. It seems 'normal' that the music that comes from a particular culture is an expression of the priorities of that culture. There are many examples of that: New Orleans jazz, late 60's Rock, Classical era Opera, Nationalism in the late Romantic era, English Punk of the early 70's, Expressionism of the '2nd Viennese School' of composers. It's more difficult to find a music that does not have that connection to culture.

  • @chrisinglik4115
    @chrisinglik4115 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    This series is the most precious gem on entire YT. Thank you Andy!

  • @butteredtoast43
    @butteredtoast43 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    this series is exactly what i needed. the book is confusing as all hell and all the info out there is either very superficial or misinformed or both (ex. "lydian scale is the *real* major scale!" - not something george russell ever said). it's so frustrating because i'm very interested in this theory - it honestly resonates with me. so, thank you

  • @metaflanger1975
    @metaflanger1975 3 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    After a good deal of sifting through video's on LCC I am very relieved to have found yours! In a way I am pleased to know GR doesn't actually explain the skip issue. I racked my brains for ages as to why this is the case. Your idea for avoiding double lydian tonics makes sense. My conclusion before seeing your video was once the F# is 'out the way' the remainder of notes are essentially substitutes for notes that exist in the scale which sound more 'outgoing'. Excellent work, thanks

  • @Aapetersime
    @Aapetersime 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    Good stuff here. And yes, I agree with Reed on his thoughts of 'horizontal' religion, philosophy, and especially, Western music. Goal-oriented.

  • @Fakery
    @Fakery 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    14:50 Page 28 spells the VII 11th b9 sub-principal chord on a staff. He does not include the 3rd (just B E A C). Tucked in a random note on page 112 Russell notes that for 7th chords the 3rd is not important. So I think the VII for Lydian Scale and Lydian Augmented Scales are written as intended, the 3rds should not be included for those genres. (unfortunately he doesn't write out all the sub-principle chords he listed in Chart A, so it still be could just wrong)
    +IV Dim tetrachord just indicates using all 4 notes of a diminished chord (which is different from the I Dim Maj 6th, and VI min 13th b5 given the bass note and context, i guess)
    Half hearted defense I could make as I am still reading. Anyway really enjoying the book and your companion videos! This has instantly expanded my vocabulary, thanks for sharing :)

  • @cattafish
    @cattafish 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    If Russell hadn't claimed the major scale was a wrong or inferior as a basis for western music i don't think he'd have attracted half the criticism he has.
    He'd have been better to have acknowledged the historical importance and ongoing validity of the major scale as his Horizontal Tonal Gravity idea implies in any case. It is here that he concedes that II V7 tonicizations' are conceived of as leading to the Major tonic where he advocates the use of 4th based scales. Presumably unlike Berkley chord scale theory the 4th wouldn't be so much of an avoid note.
    He was clearly thinking about 'horizontally' focussed improvisors building lines around the melody which in most cases would be in a major or minor key.

  • @esthersmith3056
    @esthersmith3056 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    regarding "tonality": i think the word has ambiguous meaning and that this causes some confusion/disconnect in communication. ive sometimes seen "tonality" used to refer to the common practice harmonic conventions which replaced earlier modal music, and by this usage, not all music which has what we often call a "tonal centre" is actually tonal. this usage is possibly quite rare and/or context-specific, but i think it's kinda unconsciously assumed by people whose idea of tonality comes from half-remembered or improperly-recounted lectures on music history.

  • @ioioio13
    @ioioio13 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Always appreciate the explanations and analysis. Thanks for continuing to upload.

  • @CMM5300
    @CMM5300 4 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    So I was hoping someone would dimistify this theory. I guess someone had on their bashing boots.... here... club him with this!
    The LLC is a great theory! Let's see your book!

  • @chetsims5793
    @chetsims5793 4 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    it seems to me that his note on the ladder-climbing nature of the major scale could have been referring to the teleological, "goal" oriented harmonies therein. I would be critical of the suggestion that our bad behaviors brought about major scale dominance, but I find the concern with the teleological nature of western classical music a valid one. Perhaps we presume something about nature by characterizing it as "out of time," as needing resolution.

  • @martyfrank3548
    @martyfrank3548 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    So glad you got to this! So appreciated!

  • @cubistguitar
    @cubistguitar 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Yep, the chords look wrong at first, but they are not. Think about VII of a Lydian chordmode, most of us would know this as III in major. What would an arranger like Russell think of a III chord? It has never really had its own identity in jazz language of his day, but always another way to voice the I chord or as a subdominant of VI, and sometimes a II/III type chord that we usually call the 7susb9. So the chords he lists for VII of Lydian are the ones he has seen and written in arrangements for years. I don’t think he means to abandon the tonal theory he knows so well, but tries so hard to explain some of the discrepancies in the old major/minor theory as it applies to the music he knows best. Jeff Brent obviously has decided he is right and George is wrong, but I think it’s far more subtle and surface skimming this stuff looking for incorrect information is not taking it serious or even trying to be truly critical, just slagging on something he doesn’t know very well either. If he thought about arranging and writing in Russell’s world he may have been hipped to some jazz chords he doesn’t know how to use yet.

  • @davidjordan5175
    @davidjordan5175 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thanks. I appreciate your efforts.

  • @Alex-mg6vn
    @Alex-mg6vn 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I find it hilarious that Brent's derivation of Ionian is far more complicated than the a common one for Lydian, stack 7 perfect fifths, and arrange the resulting notes in linear order.

  • @CMM5300
    @CMM5300 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Great work. Those aren't chord scales. Everyone calls chord scales something different. Those are just the possible root chords off the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 (7's 9's 11's and 13's) of each scale. If you put them all together then it's a chord scale. One line across. Also a chord scale is a 7 note chord that plays every note of the scale.
    Lydian 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
    Maj 7 #11 (1 3 5 7 9 #11 13)
    There's not a lot of info on this subject. Thanks for all you research and all the work that went into this video.

  • @udomatthiasdrums5322
    @udomatthiasdrums5322 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    love it!!

  • @iloverumi
    @iloverumi 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    great info. thanks!

  • @cattafish
    @cattafish 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Sorry if I'm being dense but I still don't understand your objection to the Lydian Diminished VI-degree chords. Perhaps you could explain why they don't make any sense.
    Yes, he could have included minor chords but why should the VII chords be minor as opposed to suspended altered dominants? You surely can't be saying the Phrygian mode can't support those chords.

  • @theprocastination9697
    @theprocastination9697 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Good Review, what's the mame of the song un the beggining?

    • @bebopreview3187
      @bebopreview3187  4 ปีที่แล้ว

      Similau by the Artie Shaw orchestra arranged by Russell. th-cam.com/video/WL42KrVqxXk/w-d-xo.html

    • @theprocastination9697
      @theprocastination9697 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@bebopreview3187 Thanks a lot!!

  • @johnjacquard863
    @johnjacquard863 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    "Mode"
    Does not mean to be subservient to a major scale .
    ( there's no modes in functional harmony
    [ other than naming permutations ]
    " mode" means a unified sound
    Lydian is a mode because it has unity
    All the chords inside F Lydian
    Sit perfect still and are relaxed on top of
    F major .
    This is what " mode" means.
    It does not mean that it's derived from the major scale .

  • @johnjacquard863
    @johnjacquard863 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    In your video you talk in response to Rick beato comment about him
    Going back and forth in his thinking .
    You responded this is not good because the point of LCC is to bring everything back to a single tonic lydian .
    But this is mischaracterising rick beato
    Because what is is saying is going back and forth between functional harmony and LCC
    12 tone equal temperament
    Has these distinct separate languages
    ( they work different down at the the level of meaning )
    Tonal music language
    ( functional harmony)
    Modal mudic language
    ( lcc is in modal music language )
    Polytonal nusic language
    Atonal music language
    The way these distinct languages work is different from each other .
    Rick beato is referring to when he learned LCC he had to reference back to tonal music language.

    • @bebopreview3187
      @bebopreview3187  4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      The LCC encompasses all music not just modal. Beato keeps stating that the lydian scales are equivalent to other scales the same as Jeff Brent does but this is not true because only Lydian Scales are Vertical and therefore only Lydian Scales can generate chords. It sounds strange but this is Russell's belief. When you accept this principle you start to see the beauty behind the concept and that it can be actually useful.
      Beato only sees the LCC usefulness in analysis because he doesn't really understand it - like everyone else on TH-cam.
      One thing I do agree with Adam Neely is that the LCC is like going into a whole new world.

  • @CMM5300
    @CMM5300 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Those Lydian VII chords are wrong they should be minor but the VI chords in Lydian diminished are right!
    Lydian diminished 12b3#4567
    (Harmonic major IV)
    The VI is Dorianb5 12b34b56b7
    The chords are
    Min 13th b5
    Min 7th b5
    Min 9th b5
    Min 11th b5
    They all work perfectly over Dorian b5 (Harmonic minor II)
    Lydian Diminished VI

    • @cattafish
      @cattafish 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      Your second point is correct. I can't see a reason for the author's objection to the Lydian diminished VI chords either.
      However, the first chord under Lydian III is correctly referred to as, "I Lyd /III", an inversion of the tonic. The other variations beneath are meant to be understood the same way but lack the " I" prefix.
      Russell was not seriously suggesting that you could build Maj 6th etc chords on the III degree.
      The VII chords which are obviously wrong are the 7b9, a strange mistake indeed which is repeated for the Lydian Augmented.
      The VII Minor should have been included but Russell clearly believes that this degree as fundamentally, an altered dominant option. He'd not say it's wrong to use it over a minor chord though

  • @johnjacquard2182
    @johnjacquard2182 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    I agree a lot what you said while at same most what LCC offers is true.
    Its not that you sacrifice Dominant to tonic or ii V I
    Any Dmin7/ G7alt/ Cmaj6
    Is still useful over a Fmaj in the bass
    ( not to mention the full relative minor Bmin7b5/ E7alt/ Amin6/
    Is still exist with Fmaj in the bass.
    This isn't it either.
    Dmin7/ G7alt/ Cmaj6/
    With Dmin in bass
    Bmin7b5/ E7alt/ Amin6/
    With Dmin in bass
    Try these out . ; )

    • @bebopreview3187
      @bebopreview3187  4 ปีที่แล้ว

      From a technical point of view you are wrong. You cannot have anything in the bass of an Alt chord - because then it wouldn't be an alt chord.

    • @cubistguitar
      @cubistguitar 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@bebopreview3187 But from a practical point of view, E7alt/D is common and used often. But it may get called D9b5 or Dm9b5.
      I really don't see any inconsistency from actual practice and the chords in the list. Yes, the dom type chords on the 7th degree that should be minor are often dom in practice, because they generally occur in progressions moving from the VII to the III and they would be dom and have the b9. Yes, some of the names themselves are inconsistent but this could be just as easily explained by the patchwork of chord naming systems that were in use midcentury in popular music forms.

    • @bebopreview3187
      @bebopreview3187  4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@cubistguitar Use the names D9b5 or Dm9b5 to indicate what you mean. I don't know where you have seen E7alt/D but it is technically wrong. You cannot have a note in the base of a true Alt chord because it changes the function of the chord. Strange how things get corrupted over the years.

    • @cubistguitar
      @cubistguitar 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Bebop review @Bebop review I see your point, I’m using the names wrong. On the other hand LCC is about getting past the chord names and into the harmony itself. Does Take the A train second chord make sense with the name D7b5, it doesn’t resolve to G or C#, and it really has a melody outlining an E chord, but we persist on using D7b5 and don’t teach students that something more subtle is occurring than the chords names tell.

    • @CMM5300
      @CMM5300 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      I'll add that it does make sense to have dom chord on the VII of Lydian. The problem is Lydian Lacks function. Also there's major7 chords on the III ? So secondary dominants on VII to resolve on major III ???
      Idk.

  • @CMM5300
    @CMM5300 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Most of the III chords for Lydian are wrong also. They should all be minor chords. Then at the bottom it shows min7 +5
    A min/aug7 which is correct

  • @johnjacquard2182
    @johnjacquard2182 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Inside say F Lydian , is all your Cmaj melodies and extended chord progressions
    Same for Ddorian

    • @bebopreview3187
      @bebopreview3187  4 ปีที่แล้ว

      No that isn't how it works. If something is written in C major that's what it is. The tensions when applying the Lydian Chromatic concept change because the chords are looked at differently. The major scale is horizontal but the lydian scale is vertical. Remember that the Lydian chromatic concept includes the major scale as one of its horizontal scales. This is why I disagree with Reed Gratz in the video. His essay in the LCC implies that the major scale is some evil thing that was pushed on to the world, but Russell sees it as part of music - but it is not everything in music. In volume 2 of the LCC Russell was going to explain Horizontal scales but unfortunately he died before completion and publication so we have to guess as best we can what he thought. But one thing I do know is that Russell saw vertical and Horizontal scales are something entirely separate.

    • @johnjacquard2182
      @johnjacquard2182 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@bebopreview3187 what I mean is that any chord progression ( lick , riff, melody ) which is in major
      Say G7 alt/ resolving to Cmaj6 with enclosures m5b m2 m9
      All works in unity with a Fmaj chord ringing out steadily in low octave
      So the idea is that its a wider view of a 7 note chord.
      Harmony appears to be diatonic when we are zoomed into a narrow range
      Say key of C major
      Dmin7 / G7/ Cmaj6/ A7/
      We are zoomed into just a narrow range here so we have string feeling of tension to relaxed.
      However if we expand our field of view. So same exact progression
      Except 1 octave lower is the steady sound of F man spread triad dining for whole duration.
      Now that tension to relax exists inside the framework of a wider filed of view of unity

    • @johnjacquard2182
      @johnjacquard2182 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@bebopreview3187 so vertical vs horizontal harmony is about the scale or field of view like talking a high resolution ultra wide photo
      Then zooming into close and cropping the cropped view is horizontal harmony .
      This is demonstrable by for example
      Any set of chord progressions including the melodies licks and riffs which exist in say the key of G major .
      Are in UnITy with the chord Cmaj7

    • @johnjacquard2182
      @johnjacquard2182 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      So LCC is not opposing traditional harmony in any sense ,
      Its showing that traditional diatonic harmony is a cropped filed of view.
      D7/ to Gmaj/
      Seems like tension to release.
      But if you zzoom outward by placing a Cmaj underneath in bass
      The same progression or licks that seemed like tension to release
      Is compleley still or at unity .
      Its like looking at a view of the moon going around earth in a shot lot of motion but, if you zoom out to see the view of whole solar system the view is at unity.
      This what nobody talks about and why Adam Neely and rick beato don't know whavthey talking about on this topic.
      They only looking at a cropped field of view .

    • @johnjacquard2182
      @johnjacquard2182 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@bebopreview3187 take I got rhythm
      Play that entire song and all its licks with a stead ringing Ebmaj7 in spread triad in the bass

  • @johnjacquard863
    @johnjacquard863 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    The LCC
    Is not a tonal music language.
    LCC
    Is
    Modal music language .
    12 tone e.t. has these distinct languages
    Tonal music language
    ( functional harmony )
    Modal musoc language
    Polytonal music language
    Atonal music language .
    The LCC is a modal music language
    This is because it is not based on functions of a major scale.
    Lydian is a mode , meaning
    A unified sound which needs not resolve
    In your video you say Lydian scale is not a mode .this is false
    There is no chords inside F lydian
    For example which is dissonant and needs to resolve.
    Modal music language or " mode "
    Has to do with the deep level of meaning .
    ( the way the music works deep down)
    In tonal music language
    C major
    CDEFGAB
    Has tonal center ( Cmajor )
    Tonic low dissonance
    Subdominant medium dissonance
    Dominant high dissonance
    7 chords are divided into 3 functions
    The functions are the level of meaning.
    However if we look at F Lydian
    FGABCDE
    We get 5 flavors which sit on top Fmajor
    In unity .
    Fmaj7
    G7
    Bmin7b5
    Dmin
    Emin
    These are at unity with F lydian.
    This is called " modal language"
    Meaning unity is the deep level of meaning .
    There is no functiins in F lydian
    Its modal .

    • @bebopreview3187
      @bebopreview3187  4 ปีที่แล้ว

      Thanks for your comment John (just seen it) We will talk about this in the next video. I can see how what I said can appear wrong and confusing.

  • @johnjacquard2182
    @johnjacquard2182 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Anytime I hear someone talk about LCC they never quickly and clearly explain what its actually about.
    Any melodies licks riffs which outline a C major key
    ( this includes any changing tones enclosures chromatism )
    Is absolutely at rest with a F major triad ringing out steadily in the bass

    • @johnjacquard2182
      @johnjacquard2182 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Its about changing from a close up shot cropped view( of head) horizontal harmony
      To changing your field of view ( ultra wide whole body and environment)
      Vertical harmony
      Absolutely all traditional horizontal licks progressions in a key exist inside the major chord a ffth below your major key .
      Now once you zoom out to this new angle of view what looked like a bunch changing chords in a progression is actually only 1 single extended chord with zero tension and release.
      From this new angle of view you can now re adjust your tempo as you see fit .
      THIS is demonstrably WHAT " Lydian chromatic concept" is about
      ( extended version includes the minor version by using Dorian { Lydian is Dorian with missing root note}
      Look at that 1 simple comment couple sentences long to explain a life changing understanding .
      Of course don't believe me actually try it ( this is a demonstrable explanation objective repeatable facts )

  • @johnjacquard2182
    @johnjacquard2182 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Play a bunch parker motives ( ment for Cmajor key)
    With a Fmaj ringing in low octave
    Now same lines except Dmin ringing in low octave
    This 4 lines is what LCC is about

  • @johnjacquard863
    @johnjacquard863 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    There's lot of problems in your video
    You mischaracterize " walk that bass "
    Phrase " removes tonality "
    Referring to
    Cmaj13#11 VS Cmaj13
    When he says " removes tonality "
    ( he is not phrasing himself in the best way )
    Its clear though he is describing
    The V7 to I
    Dominant/ tonic
    Functional relationship in C major scale .
    Next when you talk about
    Adam neelys
    Phrase " unity, stacking perfect fifths "
    You are again mischaracterizing what he is saying.
    He is correct in that a fast way to describe
    Unity is stacking perfect fifths
    FCGDAEB
    Is FGABCDE
    F Lydian
    He is correct in his quick statement to quickly get the idea across .

  • @dmitresser
    @dmitresser 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    great job! thank you