Why is it important to understand penal substitutionary atonement?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ธ.ค. 2024
- Unless we understand the doctrine of penal substitutionary atonement, we will not understand why Christ died. From one of our Ask Ligonier events, John MacArthur explains why the cross stands at the very heart of the Christian faith.
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Unfortunately for Protestants, no teacher in the history of the Church prior to Luther and Calvin ever taught this. The historic teaching of the Church was, is, and always has been that Christ died to destroy the power of death by his own death, as the Eastern Church sings at Easter:
Christ is risen from the dead,
by death conquering death,
and to those in the tombs
granting life!
Christ died not to appease an angry Father, but to liberate mankind from the dominion of death. This is truly Good News, the very gospel that the early Church preached and that has simply been forgotten in the West.
Baloney. Just because the name of the doctrine as used today had not yet been coined is not to imply that it was not established doctrine.
"For what else was able to cover our sins except the righteousness of that one? In whom was it possible for us, the lawless and ungodly to be justified except in the Son of God alone? O the sweet exchange, O the inscrutable work, O the unexpected benefits, that the lawlessness of many might be hidden in one righteous man, while the righteousness of one might justify many lawless men."
Epistle to Diognetus (AD 150)
@Jeremy
Too many to paste, read the quotes in the link below
www.piratechristian.com/captains-log/2016/5/penal-substitution-in-the-writings-of-the-church-fathers
I come from an Eastern Orthodox background and it's very easy for one not to believe Scripture if it is not taught by 'the church'. What I mean is that the Penal Substitution teaching is right there in Romans chapter 3(focus on the word 'propitiation' in verse 25) and you have to read it for yourself not through the eyes of a so called 'church'. The main issue is that Scripture alone is NOT enough in the Eastern Church teachings on Biblical Salvation. There has to be some works/cooperation with God while the Bible is clear that 'we are saved by grace through faith, it is the gift of God' (Ephesians 2:8-10).
While you are correct in that Jesus defeated death on the Cross it does nothing to the believer(for Salvific purposes) if Jesus had simply become sin for us. He had to also impute His Righteousness to the believer so that they may be truly saved, thus the believer is declared 'righteous' before Holy God. "It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." -Romans 3:26
There is indeed this terrible idea and misunderstanding that some people are calling 'Cosmic Child abuse' - the idea that somehow Penal Substitution means that Jesus simply died at the hands of an angry Father God. The issue with that is that its simply anti-biblical and rejects God plan of Salvation for humanity, why? Because Jesus willingly died for us according to John 10:17-18:
"For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”
I humbly suggest you read Romans 3 and understand the real implications of not trusting in God's Word alone, there are Eternal consequences to the question - How does one become saved? This is why the Protestants were persecuted by the Roman Catholic church in the past and the Eastern church is not far behind..for the simple reason that the people of God believed the Word of God and nothing else..
Blessings!
@@cosminvonu1116 i thank you for your writings. But eastern Orthodox are often say sola scriptura (scripture alone) is self contradictory. Because they say you need the Church Tradition, who put the Bible canon together, otherwise we would not have the Bible today.
And they will often refer to Matthew 16 that he will built a Church who will prevail against the evil and then they say the Protestant Church did not Exist since the beginning.
@@cosminvonu1116 Propitiation is bad translation. ilastērion technically is a word that could mean either “expiation” or “expiratory”, but that in the standard Greek rendering of Hebrew scripture had the special meaning of the Mercy Seat covering the Ark of the Covenant. So the correct translation of verse 25 would be “whom God set forth as a place of atonement through faith in his blood, as a demonstration of his justice through the dismissal of past sins”
I was raised a Catholic being dragged to church as a kid and going to Catholic school for a few years too, and I never even heard of substitutionary theory of atonement. Its a real heavy subject and these videos gets me a bit closer to understanding it. Thank you.
That's because the Catholic Church doesn't believe is central to the faith. There are different theories of the atonement. You can believe that Jesus died for our sins without believing in PSA. In my opinion PSA really does separate the Trinity.
I was raised Catholic here also. Don't give up on the Church so readily, study what she teaches from Catholic sources. I studied a lot of what protestants teach from protestants as to get a fair view.
stay Catholic 🫶
Viva Cristo Rey
2:27 but it does not maintain his justice to punish the innocent and let the guilty off scott free.
Well said. I believe this is the flaw of this doctrine. The Bible shows clearly that such act (punishing the innocent and guiltying off the culprit) is an abomination for God : "Acquitting the guilty and condemning the innocent-
the Lord detests them both" (Proverbs 17 : 15).
1:35 Penal Substituion would make God unholy and unjust in a very serious way! He would be punishing the innocent for the wickedness done by another. This is perverse and injustice. It not only fails to uphold God as a just god, but it completely tarnishes his holiness, turning him wicked to the core. God cannot punish the innocent for any reason, even if the innocent volunteers. Penal Substitution is wicked right to the core.
Agreed. But what then does it mean that "Christ died for our sins", and how does it save us?
Thanks Pst. John MacArthur *4 Yur Powerful, Blessed Message on Penal Substitution Atonement 4 Our Great Almighty God Commandeth His Love Towards Us That While We Were Yet Still Sinners, Christ Died 4 Us 4 There Is God and One Mediator Between God and Men, The Man Christ Jesus 4 We Have Been Given The Ministry of Reconciliation Written In Romans 5:8, 1st Timothy 2:5 & 2nd Corinthians **5:21* 4 I Say That May Our Great Lord Jesus Christ Bless Yu Pst. John MacArthur & Lingoiner Ministries So Very Much.🙏🙏🙏🙌🙌🙌🕊🕊🕊🕊🕊🕊🕊🕊
I've never heard the "penal substitution" term before. But thank God that I understood that he died for MY sins and took the Punishment that I deserved. Isaiah Chapter 53 explains this clearly. God bless you all.
In the simplest possible terms, the biblical doctrine of penal substitution holds that Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross takes the place of the punishment we ought to suffer for our sins. As a result, God’s justice is satisfied, and those who accept Christ can be forgiven and reconciled to God.
The word penal means “related to punishment for offenses,” and substitution means “the act of a person taking the place of another.” So, penal substitution is the act of a person taking the punishment for someone else’s offenses. In Christian theology, Jesus Christ is the Substitute, and the punishment He took (at the cross) was ours, based on our sin (1 Peter 2:24).
According to the doctrine of penal substitution, God’s perfect justice demands some form of atonement for sin. Humanity is depraved, to such an extent that we are spiritually dead and incapable of atoning for sin in any way (Ephesians 2:1). Penal substitution means Jesus’ death on the cross propitiated, or satisfied, God’s requirement for justice. God’s mercy allows Jesus to take the punishment we deserve for our sins. As a result, Jesus’ sacrifice serves as a substitute for anyone who accepts it. In a very direct sense, Jesus is exchanged for us as the recipient of sin’s penalty.
Penal substitution is clearly taught by the Bible. In fact, much of what God did prior to Jesus’ ministry was to foreshadow this concept and present it as the purpose of the Messiah. In Genesis 3:21, God uses animal skins to cover the naked Adam and Eve. This is the first reference to a death (in this case, an animal’s) being used to cover (atone for) sin. In Exodus 12:13, God’s Spirit “passes over” the homes that are covered (atoned) by the blood of the sacrifice. God requires blood for atonement in Exodus 29:41-42. The description of Messiah in Isaiah 53:4-6 says His suffering is meant to heal our wounds. The fact that the Messiah was to be “crushed for our iniquities” (verse 5) is a direct reference to penal substitution.
During and after Jesus’ ministry, penal substitution is further clarified. Jesus claims to be the “good shepherd” who lays down His life for the sheep in John 10:10. Paul, in Romans 3:25-26, explains that we have the righteousness of Christ because of the sacrifice of Christ. In 2 Corinthians 5:21, he says that the sinless Christ took on our sins. Hebrews 9:26 says that our sins were removed by the sacrifice of Christ. First Peter 3:18 plainly teaches that the righteous was substituted for the unrighteous.
There are quite a few different theories about how, exactly, Christ’s sacrifice frees us from the penalty of sin. Penal substitution is the most logically and biblically sound view.
Then why must YOU overcome the very sin he died for? And why must YOU die on the same cross Yeshua did as he commanded? Vicarious atonement is a false doctrine of Rome and is heresy that leads to eternal damnation.
@@DogSoldier1948 Thank you for the explanation. God bless you.
@@RoseSharon7777 He died for our sins and overcame the penalty that we deserved which was Death. By that, He purchased our Salvation. For we are sinful by nature and we had no Savior before him. Symbolically we also die when we are baptized. Our old self is left and we rise a new creature as the scriptures describe it. We don't overcome anything. Christ overcomes but we must be faithful and ask him.
@@born2win262 Obviously you haven't discovered the mystery of Jesus Christ. The treasure thats HIDDEN in a field from those who are perishing. Why? Because you worship the antichrist of Rome. You were told DON'T WORSHIP ANY MAN AS GOD ALMIGHTY, its an abomination. God-men are Babylonian pagan doctrines that came into the church thru Rome. The beast!! Study the Bible before its too late.
Most contemporary western "Christian" churches NEVER mention this. All you may hear is "Jesus died for our sins...", but rarely do you hear the Why or even the His-story leading to the Why. We must must must read our bibles from beginning to end, regularly. The whole bible is the Gospel message, and the Gospel account.
hm ALL IS FOR AS, BUT ITS NOT ALL ABOUT AS
FOR AS , BODY OF CHRIST IS ROMANS -PHILIMON - PAUL
I did not have the knowledge of penal substitution until I heard Paul Washer explain it. I never heard it taught in any church. Yes, Christ died, I believed that. What I did not know is the death He died was the death we deserve. He also lived for us. He lived, perfectly fulfilling the law, so we can be clothed in the robes of HIS righteousness. Praise be to God!
Thats heresy. You will not be clothed in righteousness unless you are righteous in practice.
@@fredarroyo7429 that's not heresy at all. What Scriptures would you quote for your affirmation? We did absolutely nothing for our Salvation. He placed us in a positional righteousness and afterwards He made us righteous in practice also, because of the new heart He gave us.
@@narcisbortes4114 1 john 3:7
Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
Romans 2
5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God.
Ezekiel 18:20
"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
Righteousness is non transferable. You are only positionally righteous if you practice righteousness, you will not be judged by Christ righteousness , you will judgws according to your own deeds
Amen sister 🙏🏾
@@fredarroyo7429 Romans 3:10 says “none is righteous, no not one”. We can not be righteous by our own actions, as we all have sinned and are forever tainted. Jesus took on our sin and imputed his righteousness to us (2 Corinthians 5:21).
1 John is a tough book to understand, but the key to understanding chapter 3 is the fact he calls the righteous children of God, which are those who believe unto salvation (John 1:12). Faith without works is dead, but none of us can be righteous by our actions, nor does anyone earn their salvation through works. Jesus righteousness is imputed to us through faith and a transformation of the soul
The original commenter was right in their claim. It’s called imparted righteousness
I think the "penal substitutionary doctrine of atonement" is due to a misunderstanding.
Colossians 2:13-14 (LEB) "And although you ( you=Gentiles)were dead in the trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he made you alive together with him, having forgiven us (us= Israel) all our trespasses, having destroyed the certificate of indebtedness in ordinances against us, which was *hostile to us*, and removed it out of the way by nailing it to the cross."
hostile to us = Deut.11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a CURSE;
Deut.31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.
As you can see, something is missing in the teaching of the churches.
And that "something" changes the whole message.
When Jesus died on the cross, he erased what was written in the law of Moses against the Jews.
He at the same time caused that the act by which he died was done against a person, (Not against God Himself).
Because Jesus is the head of the New Covenant, he is subjected to transgressions instead of God.
In the New Covenant, according to the teaching of Jesus, all deeds that are now against Him are subject to His forgiveness.
Matt. 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Mark 3:28 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of
men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: .......>>>>>
If God has to punish sin, does He really forgive? If I had a sister who sinned and came and confessed to me, would I be forgiving her if I made her pay what she owed or if I simply pardoned her? Hebrews 9 talks about Jesus having to die because a covenant is not inaugurated unless the death of the one who made it takes place. So what if Jesus died to enact the new covenant, and in that sense took away our sin? I’m not sure, I’m still studying. But penal sub is starting to not make a lot of sense to me.
I agree with you. The Bible clearly states the following thing : "Acquitting the guilty and condemning the innocent -
the Lord detests them both." (Proverbs 17 : 15). Penal Sub actually contradicts such biblical principle. It makes God be and do what he is not and does not do. In addition to that, Jesus, in his testimony of life according to the gospels, never showed that divine forgiveness works that way. Would be interresting to see how a Penal Sub supporters would forgive as Paul recommanded Christ followers to forgive "each other, just as in Christ God forgave you".
God doesn’t love His enemies?
God doesn’t forgive without demanding payment?
Why should we forgive without demanding payment?
So your god cannot forgive? So there is something your god cannot do. Interesting concept of god, though unbiblical. For you are saying that your god is incomplete, being in need of something outside himself in order to do this act of forgiving. Read Ezekiel 33 and you won't find any need whatsoever of a sacrifice in order for the Biblical God to forgive. But even so, God requiring payment to forgive does not have anything to do with penal substitution. There is no concept at all of even the ability to substitute one person for another in the punishment of their sins anywhere in the Bible. Start with the OT and show me where it is. It isn't in the sacrifice of Isaac on the mountain, since he was not going to be killed for anything he had done wrong. There was no penal for penalty. So the ram as a replacement was not to take the punishment for Isaac's sins on him in place of Isaac. Show me where in the OT there is this concept that you are distorting the Gospel message through and believing a heresy.
Because you have sinned also. God is perfect. We are nit called to forgive everyone, only those who repent and ask for it. But God being the perfect Judge cannot just "forgive", payment needs to be done for the sins you have commited.
3:29 and yet the Parable of the unmerciful servant has the ruler forgiving the debt of the servant without any penal substitution whatsoever. So why didn't Jesus teach penal substitution right at this crucial spot where it would have been a perfect time to do so? Because there is no such perversion in the Gospel of Christ or in Paul's teachings, nor Peter's, and James' and John's teachings are directly opposed to it. But then you are strangely silent on those.
Dr.R.C. and Pastor John MacArthur (was a great 👍 help for me when I start studying Theology)
If you think reformed theology is great, wait until you come across some actual patristic theologians.
2:21 repentance. The wage of sin is death. Sin must be destroyed. Not simply suffered for. Much less by an innocent person.
1:40 so you're saying forgiveness is unholy but punishing an innocent person isn't?
Well said. Such doctrine actually makes God be and do what he is not and does not do, for the Bible cleary states the following : ""Acquitting the guilty and condemning the innocent - the Lord detests them both." (Proverbs 17 : 15)
1. Forgiveness REQUIRES sin to be punished. Forgiveness is not just "forgetting" sins. That is Unjust. For example, prisoners will be forgiven by society IF their prison time is fulfilled. If that is earthly judgement, moreover God. Because God IS Holy, God as The Judge will do Just, He will not let the guilty goes unpunished.
Exodus 34.6-7:
Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.
2. The punishment of sin is not on random innocent, Jesus BORE our sins.
Isaiah 53: 5:
But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.
1 Peter 2.24:
and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
Thus, He was MADE TO BE sin ('though He wasn't a sinner).
2 Corinthians 5.21:
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
That is why He died.
Romans 6.10-11:
For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
That is our salvation in Him. The only salvation and people need to realize that and REPENT before it's too late.
@@jonathanj.n.2375 Why couldn't God just forgive your sins?
Because WITHOUT the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
Hebrews 9:22
Before I became Christian I had this thought that Jesus died for me bec plainly He loves “me” & to save me from Satan’s punishment in hell. That’s why it’s impt. explain fully what’s the true meaning of The Gospel whenever we have a chance :)
"To those who say that they believe in this false doctrine of [penal] substitution, I respond: To believe in it is your punishment for being able to believe it; you may call it your reward, if you will. You ought not to be able to believe it. It is the merest, poorest, most shameless fiction..."
--George "Tell it Like it Is" MacDonald
and they (those that reject it) will according to their wishes, pay for their own sins in hell.
God did not punish His Son at His expense. Father and Son decided this before the creation of the world. read John's gospel.
Right. Salvation was made available to all at the foundation of the world. Not all will accept that merciful gift because they do not wish for YHVH to sit on the throne of their lives; rather, they cling to their own self-sovereignty doing right in their own lives.
Yeshua Messiah laid down his own life in accordance to his Father’s will, and he picked it up again, defeating death.
We are reconciled (covered) by the protection of His blood, just as the Israelites were covered by the blood of the lamb on their door posts on that first Passover. Death passed over them.
Read Isaiah 53
@Ted, what do mean by “at His expense”?
BonnieBlue2A In our natural state, none of us are capable of “accepting that merciful gift.” As children of Adam, we all reject Christ in our flesh. We are dead in our sins. A supernatural act of God is required to regenerate our hearts, and saving faith is a gift which flows naturally from this supernatural work of regeneration. This is what meant by the new birth, and by the “writing of the law upon their hearts” referenced in Jeremiah 31:33.
BonnieBlue2A You forgot to mention that we are Justified
*Pelagian screeching in distance intensifies*
I hate Pelagianism and they're everywhere on TH-cam. Most prominent TH-cam street preachers are sinless perfectionist Pelagian heretics.
I am a Methodist, Saint Pelage had just
John Wesley, in “The Wisdom of God’s Counsels,” defended Pelagius as a holy man whose “real heresy” was “holding that Christians may by the grace of God (not without it; that I take to be a mere slander) ‘go on to perfection’, or in other words, ‘fulfill the law of Christ’” (in Works, [vol. 2; ed. A.C. Outler; Abingdon, 1985], 556). In other words, Wesley believed Pelagius’ real theology was misunderstood and distorted by Augustine much as his own had been by many Calvinists. But whatever Pelagius’ personal character, the weight of the evidence is that his theology lacked the concept of prevenient grace so central to Wesley’s.
Why should I forgive someone without demanding payment?
"The Lord opened Lydia's heart to respond to Paul's message!"
Acts 16:14
When did God decide to open Lydia's heart!
From all eternity!
Why does God open some hearts and not others so they will respond to the gospel?
Nobody knows but God is not arbitrary.
"First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds!"
Acts 26:20
John 1:17 Grace came to reveal the Truth.
What is greater than the law of punishment?, Unconditional Love.
This Love for us, was demonstrated on the Cross "Unconditionally".
Love, Grace and Truth supercede everything.
Where in the bible does it says that every single sin shall be punished? not in those exact words but in that exact context, where?
How many sins did it take for our first parents to be kicked out of God's presence and the curse and fall and everything else? 1
Why didn't God just dismiss 1 sin? You can answer that.
@@kpballa1009 well your theologians said every single sin shall be punished, not me.
@@fernandopaulus9088 you asked a question and i gave the answer. maybe you need to read your question and my answer again.
@@kpballa1009 You can't answer a question with a question and also your question doesn't make sense
We can all agree that our future look bleak at most.let me put music into your being and bring out the passion I put in your heart and you have faith in me I'll show you to joy in your spirit
To seek knowledge of world events and travel like never seen.freedom of fear
I think Eastern Orthodoxy has a valid voice talking about sin as departure from God who is life into death, and so salvation is union with God again who is life. But I think that has to be grounded in Penal Substitution. It is all through union with Christ by faith that the definitive legal aspect gives way to the progressive sanctifying aspect of conforming to the image of God, which is Christ, who is life.
Except the EOs revive borderline Pelagianism the moment they start talking about the nature of sin. And if you press them on the atonement and what happened you will eventually get an answer like, "it's a mystery" without commitment to anything.
@@IRMalcolm unlike Calvinists they believe in free will.
Problem with penal substitution is that it ruptures the Trinity ... God punishing Himself ... an odd theory at best not known for 1000 years until Anselm...
I clearly understand the doctrine of PSA, and it's absolutely false and unscriptural.
True. The Bible clearly states the following thing : "Acquitting the guilty and condemning the innocent-
the Lord detests them both." (Proverbs 17 : 15).
you don't understand the gospel.
@@jesseletkeman642Is that right?
What exactly do you think the gospel is, then? Let's talk about it!
2:26 So MacArthur, did you punish your children each and every time they disobeyed you? Or were there times you showed them mercy and wrote off the punishment? And when you did, did you become less righteous as a father? NO! God is completely capable of forgiving the sins in hope that you will not do them again. EMPATHY is the core of what Jesus did on the Cross, in order to evoke our empathy for him and by this to obey! Empathy is the power of the Cross, through the reality that Christ's blood actually did stain the Cross and he died. He became our Passover (read the original story again of the Passover and don't just convert it in your mind to Substitutionary Atonement). Jesus is our lutron (Greek word), our tool to loosen off from sins so we no longer obey them. 1 John says that Christ was manifest to do away with the works of the Devil, which are sins, since the Devil has been sinning from the beginning. And God says "To obey is better than sacrifice!" What does that make of the sacrifice of Christ in the face of our obedience? And if we have escaped sin and then turn back into them we trample underfoot the blood of Christ! (Hebrews 6) Few people really grapple with these issues, but rather go around shooting off their mouths about things they do not understand.
26If we deliberately go on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins remains, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume all adversaries. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think one deserves to be punished who has trampled on the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine; I will repay,”f and again, “The Lord will judge His people.”g 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
35So do not throw away your confidence; it holds a great reward. 36You need to persevere, so that after you have done the will of God, you will receive what He has promised. 37For,
“In just a little while, He who is coming will come and will not delay. 38But My righteous one will live by faith;i and if he shrinks back, I will take no pleasure in him.”
39But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.
To live by faith is to do the will of God, to obey. The purpose of the sacrifice of Christ was that we should live by faith in that empathy, in that promise, in obeying the will of God. Then we preserve our souls. Where is the penal substitution in this passage? It is strangely silent about any such perversion, and rightly so!
How is it possible that Christians who have sinned after accepting Christ can expect not to be completely destroyed by God? Look at this passage! There is no wiggle room at all. The penal substitution idea is not here to rescue the person when they are intentionally sinning. What could still save a person in this case? Mercy of God and his mercy alone!
Is there any theory of the atonement that focuses on the ontological expurgation of sin from post-Fall human nature? I agree with the penal substitutionary theory of atonement, but I think it's missing an important metaphysical aspect. Being _forgiven_ of our sins is just the start of it; we also need to have the stain of original sin literally _removed_ from our nature in order to be in the presence of the Almighty God.
PSA is literally an eye for an eye and tooth for tooth.
It’s like saying I can’t forgive someone unless I first punish them. It’s not even forgiveness at that point.
“He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished.” How can a perfectly just God remain so if he pardons sin? He can’t, instead He Himself takes on our punishment and pays the price. Why do you think he created the day of atonement? To train the Jews so they would recognize Christ and his needed sacrifice.
Amazing that the Church didn't understand the Calvinist view of this doctrine for the first 1500 years. Anselm's view was developed in the 1100s, but it isn't the Calvinist view. Thank God He never forsook Jesus!
Personally, I am aghast and agog that 2000 years of theologians pondering the scriptural teaching about the death of Jesus that they still refer to it as an "atonement" and still speak of "the value of the merit" of it. Nowhere is the death of Christ said to be an atonement and there is no discussion of any "meritt" that it bestows on anyone. Never. It speaks of the death as a "propitiation" and tells us that the righteousness of God is the forgiveness of sins.
An atonement is made by a sinner as an expression of remorse and an appeal for forgiveness. Jesus did not die to express his remorse or to ask for forgiveness for his sins.
A propitiation is made by a judge who is inclined to forgiveness of the sins of an innocent or repentant person, to be vindicated for their "failure" to execute vengeance. It was God the Judge of All who made propitiation by offering the suffering of his own son to demonstrate to the public that he did not negligently or flippantly forgive sinners who had harmed others because he too was a victim of their treachery.
That justification is forgiveness, not vicariously earned merit is easy to show:
[Luk 24:47 NLT] (47) It was also written that this message would be proclaimed in the authority of his name to all the nations, beginning in Jerusalem: 'There is forgiveness of sins for all who repent.'
[Luk 1:77 NLT] (77) You will tell his people how to find salvation through forgiveness of their sins.
[Act 2:38 NLT] (38) Peter replied, "Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
[Act 26:18 NLT] (18) to open their eyes, so they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God. Then they will receive forgiveness for their sins and be given a place among God's people, who are set apart by faith in me.'
[Jas 5:20 NLT] (20) you can be sure that whoever brings the sinner back will save that person from death and bring about the forgiveness of many sins.
So "Limited Atonement" needs to go back to the drawing board and start all over.
Also, the elect were the remnant of Israel that Jesus was sent to gather - the lost sheep - as told of Ezekiel 37 and Isiah 10:21 and elsewhere:
[Isa 10:21-22 NLT] (21) A remnant will return; yes, the remnant of Jacob will return to the Mighty God. (22) But though the people of Israel are as numerous as the sand of the seashore, only a remnant of them will return. The LORD has rightly decided to destroy his people.
[Jer 44:14 NLT] (14) Of that remnant who fled to Egypt, hoping someday to return to Judah, there will be no survivors. Even though they long to return home, only a handful will do so."
These elect were the firstfruits that followed the Lambkin wherever he went on the shores of Galilee, etc. aka the 144,000. The great crowd are as innumerable as the stars of the heaven and the sand of the sea.
If God is perfectly just, and it would tarnish Him to not punish the guilty, how does doing the complete opposite, punishing the innocent (Christ), not tarnish Him as well?
Want a verse from Romans 9?
@@tariqskanaal8187 "Acquitting the guilty and condemning the innocent - the Lord detests them both." (Proverbs 17 : 15)
@@andryranivoarizaka9772 in the case of Christ the guilty are not being acquitted. Christ is being given as a guilt offering(Isaiah 53:10).
@@tariqskanaal8187 according to the video Jesus died as the guilty one, though he was innoncent. On the other hand, the culprits (sinners) can be found not guilty before God, though they really are. That's what the video teaches. But the Bible stipuates that this is something God definitely loathes. Though such theory may fit the world, it is unbiblical.
@@andryranivoarizaka9772 it is not that they are simply acquitted, instead a guilt offering(Isaiah 53:10) is made for them. In Isaiah 53:12 it says that he bore the sin of many.
Basically, for those that don’t understand: it’s that Christ was crucified for our sins. The suffering of the Saviour. Not that hard to pick up a dictionary.
How simplistic !
It's a lot deeper than that pastor reformer !
It's a whole legal matter of the consistancy of God's nature and charachter !
Colossians 1:
19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to *reconcile* everything to *himself*
It's not *just man's salvation* !
Shalom
👍🏻🙏
omega of course it goes a lot deeper. As a saved man grows in the knowledge of Christ, the glorious gospel becomes just that. Glorious!
Sounds a bit like any lefthand path satanic mindset - torturing some1 else for your sin.. Typical satanic mindset. Like they do in most primitive cultures, killing a lamb or cursing a goat and send it into the desert to die.. We at large do have a mobbing and scapegoating issue, and it sickens me that you dont see how this vicarious redemption thing is really... just satanism..
@@thenaturalpeoplesbureau I would tend to agree with you about the above statement, but Jesus was approached by Satan and offered him everything in the world man desires and Jesus told him to take a hike.
God’s holiness doesn’t need protecting. Our sins don’t diminish God’s holiness. In regard to our sin, God displays His righteousness by - wait for it - forgiving us when we repent. If we refuse to repent, the Just One doesn’t forgive our sins. It’s that simple. Penal Substitutionary Atonement is a pointless heresy.
Amen!
Christ was/is on a rescue mission. Take a look at 1 Peter 3 18-20 and further 1 Peter 4:6. The key to Penal Substitution-a Catholic Priest named Anselm's theory from the 12 century, is what MacArthur says...."Someone has to be punished!" But what if...God is UNJUST in His mercy and wants us all to be rescued, and it's our own free will that keeps us apart? Hmmm
Penal substitution is a doctrine of demons. Jesus gave his life as a ransom for mankind, to set us free from Satan’s power over man.Jesus offers forgiveness for sins providing you stop sinning. Double minded hypocrites will not inherit the kingdom.
So, who does Jesus save us from ? Whose wrath ? God's or the devil ? Also, if God is perfectly just ( which he is) why punish the inocent instead of the guilty ? ? ?
According to this doctrine (penal substitution), God gets appeased by Jesus death. So Jesus' death saves sinners from God's destructive act towards them. This indeed makes him punish the innocent, which, is something that he actually hates biblically speaking : "Acquitting the guilty and condemning the innocent - the Lord detests them both." (Proverbs 17 : 15). Penal Sub is contradicting God's character.
Poor John. It must be a rough life living like that, believing like that. He must be really stressed out.
Not really, knowing that your penalty has been paid is not a hard life
John is not poor as you think of,he is rich spiritually indeed!
The concept of PSA states that an almighty god has to obey to a higher principle - our human understanding of righteousness. Not only does this diminish the omnipotence of god. It is simply not how Jesus revealed the father. The parable of the prodigal son leaves no doubt that god, as the perfect father, is FREE to forgive. As sin itself in the ancient faith has always been understood as a disease with the consequence of death (rather than a negative on a bank account for transgressions), it is anyway questionable what sense PSA really makes.
Penal Substitution is one THEORY to explain the crucifixion. It's time that Christians began to re-examine this theory or the extent to which it is given status in order to understand God. Claiming it is the one TRUTH is complete bunk. Shame on you for not encouraging this important, current discussion.
Incorrect, as MacArthur usually is. Penal Substitution has nothing to do with Christ's Crucifixion.
I guess thats why he told his apostles to pick up thier cross and die on a cross like he did. Huuumm. More to this story than most think. The hidden mystery of the annointed one(s). God forgives our past sin in his mercy. We must for our future sins as living sacrifices thru death to self. Anyone who continues to sin will not enter the kingdom. Vicarious atonement is a deadly doctrine of Rome.
K. Day You cannot make atonement for your past, present, or future sins.
@@carmensiekierke3579 Yes you can. By crucifying your carnal flesh. Don't you understand the feast days. Who do you think the lamb is? Its metaphor dear. God said HE would have mercy and overlook your sins when you repent. Human sacrifice is an abomination and IS NOT the point of the new covenant written on your heart. ITS A METAPHOR. YOU are the son of God.
Israel you are my firstborn son, my ONLY SON. You need to learn how to read hebrew literature. Worshipping a man as God is an abomination as the new covenant and old clearly teaches. Im afraid most Christians have fallen victim to the strong delusion of Babylon.
@@carmensiekierke3579 If Jesus atoneed for all your sins then why did he say to pick up your own cross and overcome all sin like he did? Rev. 3:21. Cuz its a metaphor. Of death to self (the old man) and rising to life (the new man).
@@RoseSharon7777 "Worshipping a man as God"..........So, Jesus, the second Person of the Godhead, is not God. Jesus wasn't truly God and truly man.
Hebrew literature. Feast days. Are you in the Hebrew Roots Movement? ( Don't call me "dear.")
@@carmensiekierke3579 No Im not in any religious cult. All religion started in Babylon. 7 headed beast. The protestant church being the 8th king of the 7 in Revelation. Thats why you were told to COME OUT so you be not partakers in her sin. The little flock that is given the kingdom.
1:02 MacArthuir's ignoring of James is his Achilles Heel. For in it God explicitly declares that "Mercy triumphs over judgment!" That is how. God is not forbidden from forgiving and by forgiving becomes less holy! Ezekiel 33 has no sacrifice for the sins of the wicked when they repent and their wicked actions are remembered no more, though there is the stipulation that he stop doing wickedness and make recompense in order for the forgiveness to apply to him. And if you choose to ignore these two very important places in Scripture then your theology is twisted and you yourself are perverse in God's eyes.
1. Forgiveness REQUIRES sin to be punished. Forgiveness is not just "forgetting" sins. That is Unjust. For example, prisoners will be forgiven by society IF their prison time is fulfilled. If that is earthly judgement, moreover God. Because God IS Holy, God as The Judge will do Just, He will not let the guilty goes unpunished.
Exodus 34.6-7:
Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.
2. The punishment of sin is not on random innocent, Jesus BORE our sins.
Isaiah 53: 5:
But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.
1 Peter 2.24:
and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
Thus, He was MADE TO BE sin ('though He wasn't a sinner).
2 Corinthians 5.21:
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
That is why He died.
Romans 6.10-11:
For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
That is our salvation in Him. The only salvation and people need to realize that and REPENT before it's too late.
But Jesus models, performs, and even commands forgiveness without punishment repeatedly. Someone else paying my debt is not forgiveness of the debt. You cannot have both forgiveness and payment simultaneously. PSA is an answer to a fabricated problem imposed on scripture. It is not taken from the life and teaching of Jesus.
Happy soul are light but unhappy is dark
So you decide your goal
Happy is my choice
What is your choice
Try not to focus on my words but mean because they change my words to make it look funny
Meaning is the goal
Like a puzzle there many pieces so all together become answer looking for
This is such a misrepresentation of God’s nature. So much focus on God’s holiness, righteousness, and justice separated from the #1 character of God. This man does not know God. God can forgive because GOD IS LOVE. Selah
@MMMM Sadly, your statement does the same thing you’re accusing Dr. MacArthur about. It elevates love above the rest of God’s character. God is 100% of each characteristic that is revealed to us in Scripture & they are not pitted against one another. God is love, yes (1John 4:8), but at the same time He is holy (Is 6:3), He is faithful (1Corinthians 10:13), He is gracious & righteous (Psalm 116:5), He is true/cannot lie (Rev 19:11 & Heb 6:18), & He is wrath, righteous, & judge (Rom 2:5), He is sovereign (Prov 16:33) all of these, all the time...I could go on. He doesn’t stop being who He is simply because in any given instance one of His qualities is made manifest, & to focus on love or any quality at the expense of any other is to not have a proper understanding of God, & Pastor MacArthur does not do that.
P.S. Penal substitution is actually the manifestation of God’s love for sinners. God, in His love, satisfies his wrath against sin by penal substitution through Christ’s death on the cross. God’s holiness, righteousness & justice demand that sin is paid for & God, Himself, pays for it through the atoning, substitutionary death of Christ that you & I actually deserve to pay.
@@jamessapia3364 I TOTALLY agree with you that God is allllll those things, but God’s core nature is LOVE.
It was MAN that killed Jesus on the cross not God. God gave us the Tree of Life. Man chose the Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil. Since man chose the path of death instead of life, the sacrificial system was created to satisfy their law system. You see it all throughout the religious systems of ancient civilizations and current societies like Christianity.
However, God’s way was NEVER this way. God always wanted a relationship based on trust, freewill, and forgiveness. Remember, the Melchizedek Order came before the Levitical Order. There was no sacrifice system in the Melchizedek Order.
You need to study that system and go back to the Garden of Eden, then the ORIGINAL COVENANT will be revealed.
Penal Substitution short-circuits forgiveness. If God “needs” or “requires” every sin to be punished then He never really forgives anybody. It also makes God a hypocrite because he requires something of me - namely to forgive others their sins against me - as a prerequisite to being forgiven by God!
When Scripture speaks of God’s justice it’s not speaking of retributive justice but restorative justice: because God is Just he will restore everything to a righteous state in the new heaven and earth.
MacArthur has swapped out the God of the Bible and replaced Him with a bloodthirsty pagan deity.
@@yesman4jesus940 is repentance and turning away from sin evidence of a born again believer? Or can you sin all you want just ask God for forgiveness after you do so and still go to Heaven ?
I have fresh idea and knowledge of the old ways.mixed we new
Bullshit... There is no such thing as penal substitution in Jewish understanding of the Christ and the Catholic Church.
Riddles increase longjivty and is
Intended as. Intertaing your soul
The God of penal substitutionary atonement is a God who will not forgive.
In penal substitution God never forgives. As a matter of fact, he demands full payment. The god of the people who believe this says, “You have incurred a debt and I demand payment. You are not free from it until It is paid in full either by you or by someone for you; no matter, the debt must be paid, I demand satisfaction; it will not be forgiven. There is no forgiveness of debt here. The person is not free from the debt until it is paid, by them or by someone for them (Jesus).
No matter how you slice it with penal substitution your debt is paid not forgiven.
Whack. That’s not even forgiveness. Nothing or no one needs to die in order for god to forgive . God forgives because he’s just that good. Gods holiness doesn’t even mean what most Christian’s think it does… the word holy literally translated from Greek means to be other and to be different … the god he just explained looks like man .. eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth but that’s not what Jesus taught … thank god that theology is dying and god has been doing the work of spreading the truth during the past 20 years at such a rapid rate .. the church is going to look very Different soon .. amen
How did a person gain atonement for their sins in the Old Testament?
@@tariqskanaal8187 you tell me what you think… I’ll tell you this in the mean time, the writers never agree. And David says god isn’t interested in sacrifices and tells Jeremiah some stuff too
@@backtolifesneakers1 WITHOUT the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
Hebrews 9:22
Is it just me or do these psa guys come across like legal men rather then Christlike
HOGWASH! Penal Substitution is a great heresy….
1COR 15, 1 -4, Brother, brother, CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS ,HE WAS BERIED , AND ROSE ON THE THIRD DAY,-thats brother so your call penal substitution
That is very well said.
Psalm 49:7, Deuteronomy 10:17, Psalm 50, and Isaiah 66 and Acts 17 Revelation 5:9 all make the point that no man can pay GOD a bribe to keep HIM from damning the wicked. Jesus gave HIs flesh and blood to MAN for the expiation of sins and guilt therefore erasing the actual sin from the sinner. Jesus said "the Father Judges no one" and Jesus said Satan not His Father inspired His murder (John 8:44) Penal substitution relying on corrupt texts such as (Masoretic) Isaiah 53:10 assert contrary to 1 Cor 12:1-3 that Jesus was "Anathema" "cursed of" GOD. Macarthur you sir are going to see your pal R.C. Sproul before long if you do not repent. Augustine and Marcion of Sinope (who also asserted Christ was Anathema of God) and Mani of Babylon will not be much comfort to you in Hades.
❤ *How about God is soooo Just when God see us REPENT by being attentive to what's present, striving to keep all His health and moral laws, God counts that as "sacrifice," and is ever merciful and just to forgive us and proclaim us righteous. For righteousness is not perfection, rather, righteousness is trying. God see a humble and repentant heart. No human or substitutionary sacrifice like Jesus is needed because God's grace does not need a "grid" or middleman to reach us. Besides, always feeling sorrow for yourself that you are not good and you must rely on another for your salvation, takes away from you having faith in your inner divine potential, which God put in you. Yes, we sin, but always our free-will and divine spark to be righteous remains intact. Rather, when you study carefully the gospels, the life of Jesus, you will see that Jesus never called himself God. Salvation was "in his message" (e.g. Luke 18:18-27) and accepting him as God's chosen Son, the messiah. I just strongly suspect the trabslation of the New Testament writings into English and other languages have been in such a way as to deify Jesus into a god by the early church writers. Always God is against idolatry. Why would God have a male form (Jesus) to be worshipped and for us to pray to. Is that not idolatry??? People, think!* 🙏🏽 :) Regards
In Christ Jesus, God’s justice and love remain perfect and righteous having no sin go unpunished either in the unbeliever who denies this claim or it was paid in full for the believer in a Christ on the cross thereby keeping Gods justice perfect and righteous. As well as God demonstrating the most ultimate love again in Christ Jesus on the cross. For God demonstrated His own love for us, in that while we were still yet sinners, Christ died for us and gave Himself up for us. The infinitely righteous and holy pure God “the Son” taking in Himself the exact opposite of His nature “sin/evil” for us is the ultimate love story. The ultimate demonstration one can show for another. Therefore, since Christ died and rose from the dead, He is thereby seated at the right hand of the Father ruling and reigning on the throne! The name of Jesus that which is the name that is above every name in Heaven and on earth that He is the victorious one who defeated death and sin for us. Therefore we who believe/love/trust in a Christ Jesus as our Lord and Savior will be able to approach the holy throne of God Almighty in perfection, righteousness and holiness. For we were saved by Gods grace, love, mercy alone through faith in Christ Jesus alone, not of works lest anyone should boast! Glory to God Almighty!
now i'm more confused. no thanks.
This is completely inane. Jesus Christ. Calvinism is a hell of a drug.
He completely misses the mark here.. He worships Zeus, not Christ. If every sin must be punished then there is no forgiveness, its merely an illusion and God has lied.
John 3:16 my friend
What? You made no sense.
What an utterly ridiculous comment!
No good parent treats their child the way MacArthur describes God’s justice. It flies in the face of basic teachings of Christ. The parable of the servant who was forgiven the great debt makes no sense in MacArthur’s world. God is the ultimate offended party. He can forgive anything he wants. It’s his right. But his forgiveness doesn’t always make us better people. Again, the servant forgiven the large debt didn’t become a better person having been forgiven. God doesn’t just want us to be forgiven, but healed and restored to real fellowship. That means we must change. That’s what justification is about. There is the initial change in being born again, then an ongoing change (reformed call it perseverance). Justification is a process whereby God is making us more like himself. It’s not a legal fiction. You will be different, not just appear to be different.
How else could every church father believe one could lose their salvation? If they adopted the forensic justification model of MacArthur, God would be incredibly cruel (as well as unjust) to vent his wrath on the innocent Christ for a potential zero return. But they all believed one could lose their salvation (because they didn’t agree with MacArthur’s view). So they were either all wrong until Calvin, or MacArthur is wrong. I’ll go with the latter.
Blasphemous idiotic statement with no Scripture to base it up. Seems something like satan would do so does his followers, he has already been defeated. The Lamb has conquered so let us follow Him. Repent.
Penal substitution makes God unmerciful. If Jesus paid for your sins , then your sins werent forgiven they were paid for. Forgiveness is to relax the demand for payment of sins or to cancel the debt or to give a pass on the debt not to pay the debt. Paying the debt is justice but giving a pass on the debt is forgiveness or mercy. God is merciful. Penal substitution is wrong.
Actualy,it makes God just,and He ist just,and because He ist just,and a good judge,He can't just simply let you "pass". Every sin must be punished. So Jesus paid for our sin,and the wrath of God,that should be on us,He,God the father,poured out on hes son,on our place. God did not let us pass,just because,but because Jesus paid for us with his blood,and trough Him,we recive forgivenes..
I hope,i could help..😊
@@jessik591 Give me proof in the context of scripture beyond your assumption and opinion, not that God punishes sin or that God has the right to punish sin( i advocate this), but that God does not have the right to set aside His punishment or does not have the right to" simply let you pass" and still be just at the same time.
I have proof of the opposite, beyond opinion, that God has the right to set aside His punishment or right to " simply let you pass" and still be just at the same time.
@@fredarroyo7429 Romans 3,21-26..
Romans 8,1-4
1. Corinth 15,3-5
2. Corinth 5,21
Galatians 3,10-14
And one of my favorites:
Ephesians 1,3-8
And there are a lot more..just read your bible over and over again..there is so much to it,its beautiful and amazing..
Have a nice day 😊👍🏼
@@fredarroyo7429 let me give a exemple that Ray Comfort uses:
Let say,you have Speeding tickets,or something,and you are in front of the judge and he says to you: That is bad,and you have to go to jail.
And you say:But i am so sorry..
And he says: ok,you are free to go..
That would not be a good judge..
No,he says: you better be sorry,and you're going to jail anyways..
But then someone comes,and says: I am going to pay hes fine,i pay for everything..
Then the judge can legally let you go..
And if you don't think Jesus paid your sins,why did he then die on that cross and suffered God's wrath for us?
@@jessik591 So you dont have any proof from the bible to say God doesnt have the right to set aside His punishment and still be just. All you have is your opinion that God would be a bad judge if he did this. Thats your.opinion. Who are you to judge God??
Real Mercy is this. You run a red light
Cop pulls you over. Cop says i know you deserve a 500 ticket for running a light, but im going to give you a pass, just dont do it.again. is the Cop unjust? No he used His.discretion, God is allowed to do the same and remain just. Did anyone pay for the red ligjt? No , they didnt. The Cop set aside the punishment and forgave you same way God set asides the punishment , forgivses you , and remains just. No one has to pay a fine the fine wss forgiven .
Penal Substitution is an abominable doctrine of men. All people pay for their own sins: they die. Some people die in Adam and stay dead forever; others die in Christ and will rise to new life.
PSA is a made-up solution to a made-up problem. God forgave people in the Old Testament and they never questioned how God could forgive them or how His justice was satisfied. The disciples did not rejoice when Jesus died, thinking that their sins had been paid for. Nothing in the book of Acts is about the apostles going to the synagogues explaining how their sins had been paid for. What you read in the book of Acts is the same OT teaching that God forgives those who turn from sin and follow Him.
I recently came to know of individuals/groups that reject penal substitution of the gospel... 😫😫
Tim Mackie of "the Bible project", (most) Anabaptists, and those that are associated with that group..
I was shocked...😨😨 May they come to submit to what Scripture so plainly clearly teaches all throughout Gen-Rev.
The glorious gospel of our blessed God in which all His attributes - His love, mercy, grace, justice, holiness, patience were all together revealed..
The reconciliation is for all who repent and turn to YHVH (teshuva) and not just for ‘Christians’.
Yeshua Messiah walked this earth as the Word of YHVH made flesh, the Torah made flesh.
Ok, but one must not reject the essentials of the Christian faith - original sin, the trinity, the resurrection of Christ, the authority of Scripture, and the basics of biblical soteriology (justification by faith, repentance, sanctification etc)
Since obviously everyone doesn’t repent, those who do “repent” are a specific group. That group is called “Christians” in the N.T.
Me Andover Yup. And I think my point is that your religion can’t consist of Jesus+ some other ideology of choice. It’s got be Christ and Christ alone, with accurate doctrine spelled out by the Bible - both old and new testaments.
Me Andover Yup. And I think my point is that your religion can’t consist of Jesus+ some other ideology of choice. It’s got be Christ and Christ alone, with accurate doctrine spelled out by the Bible - both old and new testaments.
Bonnie, The Apostle John ( a Jew) wrote to the Jews "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Bonnie, what is the Jewish context of "the Word?" It does not mean Jesus is the living Torah. Are you a "former" Christian in the Hebrew Roots Movement?
Pastor John Macarthur 👏
Christianity without penal substitution is basically Islam ....
In the opening of the great controversy, Satan had declared that the law of God could not be obeyed, that justice was inconsistent with mercy, and that, should the law be broken, it would be impossible for the sinner to be pardoned. Every sin must meet its punishment, urged Satan; and if God should remit the punishment of sin, He would not be a God of truth and justice
Desire of Ages 761.4
Satan's view is a common view taught around the world in essentially every system of government and religion, including Christianity - and IT IS A LIE!!
Penal substitution is false another of Luther’s heresies. Comes from a shallow reading of the Bible and not adhering to the Church Fathers. The Bible was not written in Elizabethan English. Jesus ransomed us.
The sacrifice of Christ is much more valuable than the lot of our evil sins this makes them equivalent. His sacrifice is of infinite value. Heresy.
NAH!! CHRISTIAN YOU ARE NOT GET OUT OF GOD JUDGMENT OR PUNISHMENT AND IT WILL LAST FOREVER. YOU WILL RECEIVE DOUBLE THUS SAID THE LORD.
“We preach YOU can be reconciled to God”. No he doesn’t, he preaches “SOME can be reconciled to God”. Destroys his own theology in less than 30sec😂😂😂
Penal Substitutionary atonement is the Protestant gospel. Charlemagne’s Apostate Church made God into a Frankish Warlord and the Protestant Reformers added a powdered wig and gavel. Holy Orthodoxy didn’t require a reformation, doesn’t need a revival, because it never left. Research Eastern Orthodoxy, Apostolic Succession, Sacramental Liturgical WORSHIP
Research God's holiness. The whole point of Christianity is that God punished His Son for the sins of those He elected all others will have their sin punished on themselves. You cannot atone for your own sin only Christ can do that. Your work will not save you. Ephesians 2:8-9
Sounds like Catholicism.
“Protestant” Gospel is just the Gospel. The Protestant part is a reaction to the corruption of the Gospel
The problem with EO is that it is content to refrain from taking a firm stand on essential doctrines like soteriology. The result is that it is never quite clear where EO stands on such essential matters as justification by faith; however, it is generally accepted that justification requires a human works element in addition the works of Christ in EO tradition - this is abhorrent to reformed doctrine.
@KTTGHMTJWYCBLAC
I am fairly certain they are not the iron and clay