Why Seiko Watches Have Gotten So Expensive
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 มิ.ย. 2024
- We have all heard it! We have all read it! Seiko watches are just too expensive for what they are. They are a ripoff. They have no business charging the prices they do!
Or do they? Join me today as I explore the supposed "Seiko ripoff" and give you a few reasons why, quite possibly, they are still as affordable as ever.
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Here's my problem: Every time I see a Seiko I really like, it's 1k or more. That's just a lot of scratch for a Seiko, when so many other options start to avail at that price point. Last time I went through that exercise, I wound up buying a Doxa 600T for right around 1k. Seemed to me to be a much better move.
That is what’s happening with me as well.
It is just capitalism., or unregulated capitalism. The more the wealth of the country is in fewer hands the less the many hands have to pay for things. So compianes like the micro brands pop up to cater to the masses of people who fall out of the ability or willingness to pay the amount of money that fewer and fewer people can affords to pay for something like a watch. The "luxury" watch prices are getting higher because they are making less of them because the number of people who can afford them are going down. As the smaller businesses run by the folks who are claiming their toilet paper as a business tax deduction and their cars, computers , watches etc. begin to be butchered by the oligarchs thiose prices will go higher because it is the smaller than they think they are people who are buying the things. and they are getting eaten alive by the day by the predators at the top.
The Presages over 1k are often very nice, especially the Craftmanship Series. Where are you going to get a real lacquer dial with that kind of finishing for 1500-1700 USD? If those watches were Swiss, they would be thousands more.
Yup and the bracelets are trash. Great watch cases but…just junk bracelets.
@@jimmymcclure4549 fantastic argument and one that I definitely agree with
I think it's really great Mark is taking this time to be honest with us consumers. Educating us is not his responsibility, yet he cares enough to do so. Thank you, good sir.
Mark your point is very valid. Inflation justifies somewhat the price increases. But salaries and hourly pay have not kept up with inflation, so people have also a valid point in complaining about prices.
In the USA, sure, I get that.
Not just USA. Most economies are affected by this phenomenon. But, still, seiko is similar to what sony does- overpricing themselves out of the market. Most legacy Japanese brands are notorious for this;they haven't moved on.
@@senotriusneo6354yes..
Most Western or even other 1st world countries deal with the actions of the US...
Totally true.
If an item coming from brand 1 gives me 5 things while brand 2 gives me the same 5 things PLUS 2 or more for less, isn’t brand 1 overpricing? This is kind of like Toyota. Gives you an “updated” unit but in reality, is actually 20 years old underneath, and charges you a 202X rate.
I’m sorry Mark, but if other brands can provide us with better offerings, with Seiko outsourcing most of their stuff anyway, why can’t they do the same?
On a strict dollar for dollar basis I can appreciate that a Seiko watch purchased today has remained relatively in line with prior pricing. However, I think Seiko's reputation has suffered through their being slow to adapt to the expectations of buyers, particularly when those buyers compared what Seiko is offering against any number of brands/microbrands. Sapphire crystals and ceramic bezels became almost standard several years ago, as did easily sizable and adjustable bracelets. Meanwhile, Seiko plodded along with Hardlex, wandering bezels with aluminum inserts, and downright miserable bracelets (I've replaced the bracelet on every Seiko I've ever owned). Moreover, Seiko's movements seem barely regulated -- the only mechanical watches I've bought which are less accurate out of the box are Vostok watches, though at a much lower price point. Microbrands, sometimes utilizing the very same Seiko movements, managed to ship a product which was superior in many ways to a factory Seiko, especially in the rather important category of timekeeping. I guess my basic point (and I do have one) is that the perception of Seiko as being overpriced really has less to do with the final retail cost than it does with the buyer's notion of value for money spent. And while Seiko used to score highly on the value scale, it now lags in comparison to any number of competitors ... Islander, to provide one pertinent example.
Thanks for the great comment!
This ^^^ Its not about the price you are willing to pay - it's the perception (real or imagined) of the actual value for money - if Microbrands are supplying the same movements with Sapphire glass, good quality on the fly adjustable bracelets etc... at a lower price point than say Seiko 5's that don't have these base features... yeah I would tend to think that in terms of value for money - they are NOT value prospect they once were... They should up their movements/bracelets/glass then I think might be willing to pay extra for the kudos of owning an iconic brand.. Oh I'm not a Seiko basher, I own two and love them!
@@NazidKimmie I agree ... not having sapphire glass alone is a dealbreaker for me. of course, it's not just Seiko, but Citizen and Orient too (thanks to Orient for their Kamasu and Mako 3 having sapphire). Anyway, I don't care much now about Seiko having high prices, there are so many more affordable alternatives with standard sapphire, and using Seiko movements anyway lol.
the pricing structure is purposely designed to make those with financial means and horological literacy skip the lower tier models, while unsuspecting average buyers paid more for low spec models to gain admission into the esteemed brand.
Mate you've nailed it.I am the original Seikophile, adored their wristpieces and turned on to the amazing word of mechanical watches through the House of Seiko. However sapphire glass, ceramic bezel inserts all fully lumed (and overall build quality to an equal or higher quality at a much lower price) have become standard now. Often this is achieved using the same Seiko movements. Many of the Steeldive, Addiesdive, San Martin, Ix & Dao, Rdunae etc items are superbly well done or with very minor design compromises to hit the cost limits. Seiko now seems to be charging way too much for way t little and not taking its fan base seriously any more.
The fact you would do this video, perhaps even undermining your own brand a bit, really speaks to your integrity. Great points. In general, many people do not embrace the reality of change and are stuck like a broken record on the way things were back in the day- and deny the completely logical reasons why they are different and refuse to adapt. Sad reality of our species.
Makes a lot f sense. From now on, when I hear someone mention it, I'll let them know how much better off they are buying an Islander! 😁
Hahahaha
Love these industry analysis content videos. The arguments you presented can basically be rolled up to "don't hate the player, hate the game" imo. Markets gonna market. 🤷♂️
But by cracking down on the gray market seiko is making sure that markets can’t market and artificially pumping up the price. The game is fine, its the player thats trying to squeeze more money out of consumers than what the market would normally call for
@@SteveDonev exactly. When Rolex bought Bucherer everyone was like oh look at them continuing to monopolize the market. But when Seiko actively seeks out and strangles ghost buyers, it’s OK?
@@brianmccord7387 💯
@@SteveDonev I'm not sure I understand what people consider gray market dealers I guess..? I still seem to have no problem finding "NIB" Seikos on eBay or C24, etc, often for a decent discount, but I generally just choose to support my ADs anyway because I can also get decent discounts there and then get full warranty coverage which is worth it to me. I know some people enjoy the "hunt" of finding deals though so I understand that's part of it if sources you used to find have dried up.
Thanks so much.
Whatever the case with Seiko pricing, if I don't see the value for the $, I'm not buying it. Not paying a premium for Seiko.
Maybe Seiko sales are down for Mark so he has to justify the higher prices that Seiko is demanding him to charge. Its pretty cut and dry, a $200 Pagni Design or San Martin will get a Seiko movement, sapphire crystal, 200m water resistance. Half the Seiko's are made in China and the quality is there.
What is “premium?” That is such a subjective term.
Your videos are informative. I really appreciate your transparency! Thanks again. Stay cool!
Trying to, thank you.
You forgot to mention that part of the deal of getting watches via gray market is the fact that you do not get the manufacturer warranty at that price either. A lot of people aren't aware of that.
Yes, quite true.
Good point. But I wouldn't have Seiko servicing my Seiko's anyway. I can get much better servicing from an independent watch person.
@@FT4Freedom This applies to all companies though. So, yeah, maybe you don't trust Seiko but a lot of people looking for the best price may not be aware that they only get that warranty honored through a proper AD. Depending on the store their own coverage may be hit or miss as well.
@@FT4Freedomtrue!! Had to send king seiko for one issue.seiko broke something else,of it went again;you’d think they’d check their work.
Seiko is still my favorite major brand. I own a bunch of them across all price points. I know folks have had QA issues, but not me. Full vertical integration with massive variety at or under $1,000 is stlll a good deal to me. I’ve had no complaints with 4R and 6R movements. I know that micros sell for less with NH movements (I own them) but I like the Seiko designs. To each their own.
Yes, I have several Seikos, all mechanical, they have their shortcomings that we all know about, but I really like their dial designs which is why I choose Seiko over Casio, citizen for example.
Citizen does everything seiko does but better
@@silajeep1 I agree with that. I know that Citizen is quality, but I just haven’t found a design to my liking yet. Just a personal style thing. 😀
@@kart182you’re absolutely right! Citizen has always been an amazing brand but very underrated. In the last few years they have really stepped it up as far as designs, quality has always been there but now I feel like they are listening to what people want. I was able pick up a Promaster diver automatic “Fujitsubo” for an absolute steal and the quality is unreal. Finishing is perfect, everything lines up, not a spec of dust on the dial unlike some Seikos’ and Hamilton I own, and the accuracy is on par with a chronometer!
Thanks so much! I agree with you.
Great points.
I say Seiko needs to do a few things
1. Create their own market for non-moving stock. Every fashion brand has outlet stores, periodic "sales" etc.
2. Create layers of accuracy for their movements. I don't think people realize that the accuracy of a $1000 Seiko is way higher than a $300 Seiko for SAME "NH" or "CR" numbered movement!
3. On the accuracy theme again, but long-term accuracy. Swiss movements tend to be more accurate out-of-the-box but, as years pass, their accuracy falls. Swiss movements have tighter tolerances, so it's natural. A ten year old $800 Tissot will have LOWER accuracy than a ten year old $800 Seiko. Of course, you can always service a watch, but that cost adds up.
Excellent thanks! And interestingly Seiko and Citizen do have outlets but only in Japan (within dedicated malls). I’m a great fan of Japan and have been there 10 times. It’s not unusual to find a 40% discount especially on high end pieces. Got 50% on a The Citizen this year, and 30%/40% on high end 8L powered Seiko divers, especially the expensive limited editions or JDM. Worth a trip especially now when 1$ is almost 160 ¥
To your first point, the Grey and Manufacturer are necessary, but unlikely, partners.
All watches need to have periodic servicing,even quartz movements. If you watch the many watch repair/restoration videos on TH-cam you will see how lubricants degrade over time. They all need to be serviced,cost effective or not. I had chucked my ‘76 6105 in my jewelry drawer in the ‘90’s and forgot about it. I’m watching TH-cam and the algorithm shoots me a Wristwatch Revival video and he’s taking apart an old Seiko dive watch. I’m staring at it and ,that looks like the one I bought when I was in the USAF. I went rummaging around in my drawers and found my old Seiko. Dam if it wasn’t the same one! I shook it a bit and she started running. I watched the rest of the video and looked it up on Google and wow,they are worth upwards of $2000! I had worn that watch for 15 years every day. The crystal was so scratched you could hardly see through it. At that point I started looking for someplace to get it serviced. I ended up sending it to Seiko in New Jersey. They received it and said they could service it but couldn’t replace the crystal! Dam,that’s the big thing I wanted done so I had them send it back. I searched for a OEM crystal and found one in Israel for $100,a bit pricy but I wanted my watch repaired. I ended up getting it serviced by a company in California. I made the decision to have the watch just repaired rather than restored to like new condition and I like the patina it has,faded bezel and a few dings. It’s all wear that I put on it. I don’t wear it every day,I have my Apple Watch Ultra for that but I do wear it often. I don’t regret spending the money because it has sentimental value to me.
I don’t think Seiko is going to make sales by saying “the accuracy sucks now, but in 10 years without a service, it’s going to suck less than the other guy!”
Stop talking.
My SKX 007 is sitting in the sock drawer waiting to be my retirement watch. EDIT for clarification... so I can wear it daily without worrying about dinging it up at work. I'm not holding it to cash in for retirement money. 🙄 Some good replies though.😆
Life is short you might not make it to retirement. Get that bad boy out and enjoy it
What do you mean by that? I wear mine.
You seen what they are selling for? Outrageous.
That’s never gonna happen, if you’re implying that it will massively increase in price and then you can sell it and live out your days off the price you’ll get for it because they’ve made WAY too many of them. Unless you’re planning on becoming a vampire and on still being around in 2 centuries. 🤪
Why? It won't be worth that much.
Thanks Mark. Love you man. 🎉 You're spot on this. I was an original Seikophile who grew up in the gray market. Nowadays it's more difficult to put money on a Seiko.
I’m with you here. I think with the grey market shrinking there will be less wrists sporting seiko. I have three, one I never wear and should sell but when I see a seiko and it’s price I pass and think, I’ll hold out for a GS or other. Buy what speaks to you.
Thanks!
i love you so much! I recently just found your amzwatch and i’m in love!! Your videos are so fun and you energy is just MWAH! keep living your life
Thank you Marc, for this thoughtful, fair, and balanced take. Unfortunately, so many folks on YT have been regurgitating the, "Seiko has lost its way" narrative to cash in on the vocal minority of the market who spend all day clicking to complain about what they dislike vs. spending time supporting what they do like. I would add one other multiplying factor to note, JDM watches and the JPY to USD exchange rate. This disparity has skewed the market perception on top of the Grey Market and Inflation over the years as well, especially prominent for JDM only watches like the SARB which are also 15-20yrs old at this point, which are also some of the most popular enthusiast models, which molded many collectors' image of what Seiko's bang-per-buck value proposition was, while only being based on a small handful of niche models that were available so dramatically below MSRP and MAP.
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it!!!
Marc as always you explanations are on point you make it so digestible to understand.
If this was simply a matter of the elimination of the grey market and inflation, which affects the entire watch industry, the Seiko would have still been able to maintain its value proposition relative to the competition. The simple fact of the matter is that Seiko has stood still while the rest of the industry has made dramatic improvements in quality, movement accuracy specifications. It now faces substantial competition from entry-level Swatch group brands like Tissot, and the landscape is indeed even more stark when you look at the quality you get from Chinese brands and microbrands. I don't shy away from paying a premium for an established brand name and the heritage, but when the quality of the product you get from a Chinese brand is higher than a Seiko costing several times more, then that is a problem that Seiko needs to address. Put in the infrastructure investment necessary to make a product that can compete on the basis of quality, and charge more for it. Offering a poorer quality product with mediocre specifications and charging more solely on the basis of heritage and brand name is going to be a losing proposition.
Someone defending Seiko for a change- you’re my hero💪🏻!!!
😉😁
Great points, Marc, backed by research. Thank you for bringing it up to the conversation 🙏🏻
Great video! Such insight into the watch business love those videos
Marc, thank you for putting this video out, not only as a Seiko AD, but a microbrand owner. An aunbiased and factual perspective, which seems to be lacking these days.
I'd like to add another comparison, if I may. The Seiko SKX173/175 USDM variants ran for (IIRC from my price tag) 425-450 USD. Their true replacement, the Seiko Turtle (777/779 etc.) MSRP's for 495. So that's a 45 USD price bump, which is entirely more than reasonable for inflation and other factors.
To me, "enthusiasts" assumed that sub-100 Seiko 5 pricing was set by Seiko themselves, when in fact it was set due to deep discounts through the grey market! Seiko never priced any Seiko 5's at sub-160 USD.
Lastly, to me, alot of other "youtubers" have overblown a non-existent issue about pricing, when in fact, they are comparing discounted 20 yr old grey market pricing to current day! The community seems to have just regurgitated that, without anyone really digging into the facts.
It begs the question then - how biased are some of those "other youtubers", who may or may not benefit from price increase claims?
I purchased your Brookdale black on a jubilee during the Father's Day sale. It is a great value and I have worn it everyday since. Keep up the good work.
Good video, thanks Mark!
You are welcome. thanks for watching.
Mark, thanks for another timely, interesting, and informative video!
My pleasure!
Good video, Marc. Good explanation. I do think one of the reasons for the perception of Seikos being overpriced these days is because wage growth for many people has not kept up with inflation.
Thanks!
I came into the watch community right at the tail end of the "cheap-Seiko" era. I don't look back and remember how "cheap" a Seiko used to be... to me, Seikos just cost "Seiko money". Perspective has so much do to with it. I appreciate you sharing some perspective Marc.
How about Sinn prices , or Oris prices ? How much did a Sinn 104 cost 6-7 years ago ? I bet it’s almost double now
For sure
Sinn stopped being a good deal pre COVID. They have no competition in the US. There is only one place to purchase from.
Our money isn't worth anywhere near what it was before covid stimulous.
The "reason" Seiko watches are so expensive doesn't negate the fact that I can no longer afford them, and am buying watches of similar or better quality made by brands that I can afford.
Exactly. Bottom line I get equal or better build quality and specs, Titanium, strong lume, sapphire glass and ceramic inserts for a fraction of the price elsewhere. I also get 'scalable' versions (like the excellent Thorn FF diver) where even the mineral crystal bead-blasted steel version is a treat, before you get to sapphire and titanium. And I want an Islander soon...
One point that has been overlooked is : over time, economies of scale should push the price of a product downward as development costs are amortized. This COULD apply to Seiko.
The vast majority of watch manufacturers with big names have reached the apex of their economies of scales years ago especially with the release of the apple watch eating into sales.
This is actually an eye opener.
Not the inflation, I am aware of that, but the grey market situation.
There's one thing left to be answered: Why can't Seiko adjust the 6R35 movements better? The positional variance is maddening. I could deal with bad isochronism, it's not a Kenissi, but the positions...
Great video Marc! A lot of people, myself included, needed to hear this.
Thanks!
I like my Citzens. Eco drive beats anything else out there. All reliable and keeps charge for a long time.
Citizen is one I didn't touch for a comparison reason.
Same here 👍
Same! I have the orange and blue promaster and I love it.
Also, I LOVE my seiko quartz titanium watch, it over time has me liking quartz watches more than autos just because I prioritize thinness above most things in a watch. That Seiko is incredibly comfortable and looks amazing.
I have 4 Citizen watches the only Automatic is the Tsuyosa, Citizen makes nice & durable Watches ✌️🙏
The problem with currency devaluation is wages are the the last to increase it seems. The average worker is always one step behind.
Awesome video. Thank you for the insights.
Good summation. Very informative.
Thanks.
Most people have no understanding of economics and the running of businesses, especially small businesses such as Long Island Watch. The other person who has talked about this has been Brian Goulet of Goulet pens. Thank you for this video.
Good informative and objective video. Thanks 🙏
Very insightful. This is one of the most informative videos about the industry I've ever watched.
Many thanks.
Smart, factual, and as always super interesting and perfectly delivered. Thank you! I would add that the supply chain getting better (in Asia) has lowered the barrier of entry for “microbrands” while Seiko continues to do absolutely everything in house (very Japanese and I love it). I personally value this quest for perfection ( or control freakness).
Thanks so much for checking out the vid
Thank you for a super informative video that explains things. Right now I am wearing a modded datejust Seiko. Would love to have you do a video on those watches. I can’t believe I even know they exist, but somehow I do, and while it feels a bit sketchy to own one, it is beautiful.
and yet my seiko collection keeps growing. but then again I order directly from Japan and am only in the prospex camp.
👍🏻
Where do you order them from?
Outstanding analysis Marc. Very good rationalization and explanation of the market.
Thank you
@@islandwatch👍🙌
Totally agree with all 3 points re the crackdown on the grey market, inflation, and the fact that micro-brands eliminate the middleman whereas Seiko need to provide their ADs with profit margin and to support sales and service infrastructure. Sure, I wish they would improve their bracelets and use sapphire crystals more, but I still love their dial designs which continue to be hard to beat. And of course they and Citizen/Miyota help make the microbrand ecosystem possible with their movements.
Thank you!
Seiko has the benefit of economy of scale, compared to smaller brands.
This should make their products *significantly* cheaper instead of more expensive, despite bigger overhead.
It's just basic economics...
As for inflation, you're right.
However, wage growth is outpaced by inflation, so even if the watches are priced in line with inflation, they've become more expensive in a relative sense.
At least that's how people perceive it, but it's actually the other way around: wages have gone down in value, while the value of most goods has been stable.
Great video, thanks for sharing the history of the gray market in the early 2000’s
Great video. Great explanation.
Thank you Mark I love your insights into the watch industry!
Great vid Marc. Most comprehensive and best explanation I’ve seen. That you, Jody and Escapement covered this, and are all tied to or are, in your case, retailers, is particularly interesting-in what you select to drive content, and followers, and perhaps telling re: Jody’s initial take as his go to retail sponsor tends to be a certain asian grey market amazoneque one. Thanks for putting retail watch pricing into macro and micro economic perspective-something voters, not just watch buyers might want to do, when blaming Presidents for something they really don’t have much control over, but that’s an issue for another chanel. Just saying.
To your point 1, you say seiko is the one killing the grey market, so that's hardly a reason not to complain about seiko pricing.
To your point 3, if a company is handling their growth well, the extra cost of hr, new distributors, etc. are offset by the increase in sales unlocked by entering new markets--and THEN some because of the gains from economy of scale. Are there a bunch of lean, mean mom and pop outfits undercutting huge companies like Target and Amazon by offering a superior product at a lower price? No! The opposite. Bigger company does not equal bigger price.
You don’t know what you are talking about. So stop.
I think the best Seiko’s cost more now. Seiko owns the $800 to $1500 space. Personally, I always liked the SARX and SBDC models. I have a few of those, and they are really good. I still love my Astron, and that was expensive a decade ago.
Agree. I recently bought a Presage Craftmanship Series watch with a black lacquer dial for around 1300 USD. I can't think of a better looking watch I've seen for that price. If it was a Swiss watch, it would cost thousands more.
Marc, great video. I recently picked up the SPB453 at retail, and some may think that it’s overpriced, but Seiko put a lot of money into redesigning the movement and case for that watch. Also, please make a Juby bracelet for these new Seiko 3day MAS models 😎
Great video 👍🏾, my best TH-cam decision thus far has been subscribing to your channel. The truth isn't always fun but lies aren't sustainable..
Very nice and informative video. I never knew that there were so many variables. This helps to clear up a bit of the confusion on Seiko prices but it really hasn't changed my mind about Seiko. I haven't purchased a Seiko in years and with all the great micro brands out there I can scratch my watch "itch" with a lot of very interesting brands with extremely competitive prices and specs that put Seiko to shame.
you nailed this. Makes a lot of sense. Great video
Good information. I might be looking at Islander for my next watch
Marc, this is the best watch related content I’ve seen in months. You’re spot on. Some of Seiko’s recent releases that are being massively trashed over pricing such as the new “SNXS” series and some of the classic 5 reissues, will be sought after once they themselves are discontinued. Perhaps they’ll be even more sought after in future exactly because they may be shunned by the contemporary market.
Good video! Thanks for dealing in facts not feelings and wannas.
Always so interesting 🙏👍😊
Mark, that's the best explanation I have heard. People like to blame Seiko for increasing their prices but so has everyone else! The affordable Swiss brands like Tissot and Hamilton are way more expensive than they used to be and back to your reasons , they also apply to those. The used market is where value is at for the informed. For someone who has just returned to watch collecting I find the used market the best value for any watch brand.
🇨🇦 Get back to me when you find a better watch than my Seiko ! I bought it new, 52 years ago, for about $50 !
Today it is worth about $2000 and still runs perfectly accurately !
Not many watches can match my 1972 Seiko Automatic Chronograph Pogue ! 🇨🇦
MSRP and "price too low to show" is definitely a real thing in many industries. I used to work at a computer store that sold a certain brand of router (newer brand at the time but common now) and we sold them below MSRP. Eventually the brand got big enough that a big retail chain started to carry them. They didn't like that we were selling them cheaper, below MSRP and complained to the supplier and eventually they told us we can't display a price lower than MSRP and if we continued they'd stop supplying us! Grey market can say we're selling below MSRP but you don't get the manufactures warranty perhaps because like you said they were brought in from another country? Brand recognition is worth something. Just how much it's worth is going to depend on the buyer! Sure if I could get a Seiko with the same specs for a little more I would. But if the microbrand is half the price or less for the same specs and quality. Well, I might not be able to justify that. But it depends.
This is a very interesting and informative video Marc, and I agree with you 100%. However, the customer is rarely going to think of all these factors when they're going to buy a watch, from their perspective the value proposition for buying a Seiko has diminished. Especially when you factor that most of our incomes, in recent years, have not kept pace with the skyrocketing inflation.
Thank you for this informational points. You are right on spot with those reasons.
We also should add that due to this inflation, I'm pretty sure that Seiko's production costs will also get higher sense every worker will need to make more money to keep up with cost of living.
I still wish you to have 10,000 pieces of very watch model that Islander makes.
Cheering from Tom from Chicago. You know, the one with accent...
Nice analysis and breakdown 👍👍👍
I agree with everything, I argued many times with people mentioning points 2 and 3, that’s something that normal to anyone who knows anything about business. But thank you Mark for point number 1, that was very informative for me.
👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
You said it yourself. Its the market that decides what a good is worth not the manufacturer. That is what the gray market is. Seiko has been fighting against the gray market in order to artificially boost prices, so by definition they are overpriced.
Around 7 years ago I got a new Sarb 033 for $303. And honestly, you can get a watch with better quality, finishing and qc from the better Chinese brands these days. And of course the Sarb is now going for double what I bought it for. (The Sarb now lives in my junk drawer, having a taken a tiny knock which wrecked the movement.)
Thanks Marc, great explanation. Very insightful.
Good pitch. Would be interesting to see also the evolution of sales figures for Seiko wristwatches in relation with the price increase.
Good idea 💡
Thank you for making this great informative video. I’ve been getting tired of all the silly chatter about Seiko’s prices especially from many TH-camrs.
Also, seiko puts a lot of resources into R&D, such as developing and mass producing quality GMT calibers which is a boon to the microbrands that can then make cheaper watches. This is less direct, but by supporting Seiko's good investments we incentivise seiko to make more of those good investments. If we want better thinner multi-complication movements for microbrands (and surely we do), Seiko is likely one of the main innovators for those in years to come.
They put tons into it, and we all reap the benefits.
Orient is owned by the same company (Epson) and they produce better watches with better quality control for less money. At some point, we just have to admit that they're living off the brand name and charging far more than they should. I'm 52 years old and I've been a seiko fanboy since I was a teenager but they aren't what they were. They're just a mall brand, now. And I get it, genuine enthusiasts are a tiny fraction of the market so they certainly aren't obligated to cater to all of us watch nerds. It would be pretty cool, however, if they would throw us the occasional bone.
I'm wearing my 009 as I type this and that only emphasizes my point. We begged for years to have a hacking/handwinding movement with sapphire for the skx. What did they give us, though? A "sport" mall watch without a screw down crown and an exhibition case back that no one wanted. And they jacked up the price. Epson produces everything involved in the making of their watches. And I mean everything. They even grow their own quartz!!! They are in a position to produce watches for far less money than any other manufacturer on the planet. Instead, they give us hardlex, crappy bracelets, misalignment issues and increased prices for endless "re-issues" that cost twice what they should. It would cost Epson less than half as much to produce an islander but they would charge over twice as much. It's hard to even take them seriously, anymore.
Excellent video and a change from some of the usual Seiko bashing found on social media. I note a lot of people poo poo Seiko trawling their own back catalogue to save on design and development costs but so do most of their competitors including both Japanese and Swiss brands. Also worth mentioning the savings some of the Chinese homage brands can achieve by borrowing established designs.
friend, but what about Casio G-shock? they are also super-big brand, but can offer much better watches for decent price.
Solar G-shock square for less tan 90€ right now.. not 200+ for a Seiko 5.
Great video and excellent points. I own more Seiko watches (4) than any other brand but the issue I have is the pricing in different regions. I've only purchased 1 Seiko in Finland (Seiko Turtle discounted by 48%) and rest have come from either Singapore (grey market) or direct from Japan (from AD) and I saved myself +30% compared to price in Finland (also this considers import taxes I have to pay). Watch prices just seem to be much higher in Europe and that's not down to differences due to inflation or currency fluctuations.
In addition, I think many people are still watching their outgoings after the pandemic so seeing less Seiko bargains/grey market offers does give the perception of higher prices plus microbrands and Chinese brands have such good value propositions that they are hard to ignore for anyone on a budget.
And one other point I've just remembered is regarding QC with Seiko. I think there QC tolerances are a bit high. I think it's something like dials can be misaligned by up to 1.5 degrees but that really is noticeable at the extreme and hence people see they are getting less (poorer quality) for their money. For me I can live with a small misalignment but I've had '(and returned) a Seiko King Turtle where chapter ring, dial and cyclops have all be misaligned/wonky.
Really great analysis and explanation! Edit: I’m going to link to this video when I get comments on how Seiko has gotten so expensive 😝
Thanks for that!
Props to Mark for this thoughtful and unbiased analysis, especially since Islander sells Seikos AND its own branded watches! 👍
I remember not too long ago that SNK was on Amazon for about $55 and the Alpinist could be found around Christmas and Father's Day for around $300. Regret not getting all of them now.
I'm sad i haven't been into watches in the past decade or so. Seiko's have special meaning to me, and I love the quality vs price, but I slept on buying them before they started raising prices. When I got back into watches is when I noticed Seiko 5s, and grand seiko's and all that, them having so many collections was definitely new to me.
Mark, nice video. It was well done, and I completely understand your argument-it was very clear and professional. However, for the average person buying a watch, the details might not make a significant difference.
I believe (and hope) that most people conduct their due diligence, comparing watches based on appearance, mechanical quality, and availability, before choosing the one that meets all their criteria. If Seiko is the best fit, they should go for it, but often there are better options available at a more competitive price.
I understand the effects of inflation and brand power, but we are buying a watch for now. About a year ago, I bought a Seiko SSK-19; eight months ago, I got an Islander-19 for less money. The Islander finds its way to my wrist far more often than the Seiko because it's a better watch: more accurate, readable, durable, cleaner-looking, and comfortable.
I can't feel sorry for Seiko. They have their brand strength and large following-they make good watches, but the one I purchased at a lower price is simply better. I enjoy buying quality items from micro-brands because I think they work harder to produce a product with their name on it than the corporate giants do. I'm just saying. Thanks again for your concern and hard work.
Great video! I'll be subscribing to your channel.
I hate to admit it but, on a whim, I bought a Pagani PD-1639 and it's an incredible value for the money. It might be a tad large for some people with its 43mm case but it has a saphire crystal, Seiko NH35A movement, ceramic bezel insert, stainless steel case and band, exhibition case back, 100M WR, etc... Yeah, there's a quality difference in the band and with the lume, but I paid $85 for this pup and I love it. I don't see the added value of a comperable Seiko which would probably cost me between 4 and $500 bucks at the very least. I have some nice swiss brands including Rolex, but this pup gets plenty of everyday wear with no regrets. No one is going to know what I paid for it. It looks good and works well. Besides, competition is good for the market place.
All of your points are absolutely right Marc. Seiko has changed though, and some of that is a good thing. Although I personally think a lot of their newer releases are a little overpriced (even with counting inflation), not all of them are. There are still some good deals to be had out there on their products, even at MSRP. I do like what they are doing as a brand though. It's only good for the industry.
Here in the EU the SKX has always been rather expensive thanks to shipping + VAT. Long time ago the customs weren't as strict (some packages with a low declared values slipped through) and some people got their Seikos without VAT, but everyone else didn't get these great deals. I'm honestly happy that two year I got a 5KX with full warranty at a still reasonable cost without having to deal with customs and overseas shipping. Microbrands are now more common and offer a great value, but unfortunately for me I'm generally not a huge fan of their designs.
I agree with all of the points you made. However, the issue I strongly have with seikos below 500 usd watches is that it does not offer a sapphire crystal 99 percent of the time. I cannot say this about other major brands that are par with Seiko. I seriously feel if they started using sapphire crystals with those usd 250+ watches, people would complain less.
Also, having said that, being a watch enthusiast is extremely hard due to the economic crisis all over the world. Especially for people like us living in Southeast asia(I am from Bangladesh), where our wages are outrageously low in comparison to the inflation that hits every year.
However, thanks for sharing your perspective. It really does make a lot of sense.
Seiko are my favourite all round watch brand. Agreed they are worth more than we have sometimes been used to seeing them sold for in the past. However imho, anything with a RRP for over £400 should have a sapphire crystal, good quality steel straps and buckles with machined endlinks. There should be no chapter ring or bezel alignment issues. £1000 plus watches should also have much better quality packaging, this all adds to the premium experience. This would at least keep Seiko in line with alternative mainstream choices, as well the good quality micro brands. (some really are not that good a quality).
Good topic & video, thank you.
Seiko always used to be a lot of watch for your money, and I'm kind of glad that their prices have gone up to where they probably should have been. I can also now sell off some of my seiko's without loosing any money and buy that Omega I have always wanted :)
Why would Seiko (or any company) care what the retailer sells the product for as long as they get their asking price from their customers? If I was a manufacturer I would not care what the final selling price is. As long as I get my price from the wholesaler.
Its kinda like the cross fit franchise model, you can open a cross fit right next door to another cross fit and the better one will survive. Kinda like Seiko dealers with a brick and mortar storefront vs an online only.
One reason is the grey dealers selling below MSRP undercuts Seiko ADs and retailers. Straining relationships and the bottom line of businesses. Those in contracts would lose out and in turn could stop buying from seiko. Those ADs and retailers mean more to seiko. The bulk of sales come from places like department stores & jewelry stores. Average consumers and regular folk are not buying from jomashop. So it’s in their interest to keep the buyers who deal in bulk happy. Not the grey market picking up production leftovers.
What a great explanation Mark 👍.
I have found it funny how Seiko somehow became the Third Rail of "why are watch prices so much higher now?", totally ignoring the rest of the economy in general, as if the watch market is somehow cocooned from everything else. Good on you for this apparently necessary bit of enlightenment, Marc!
One clear example is your own brand, the same quality for less, Seiko is overcharging
Excellent, as usual.
Thanks!
EVERYTHING has gotten more expensive. For those who are just figuring that out I say, "Hello. Mr. Van Winkle."
Thank you for letting this video. It is something that I think has been desperately needed in the watch community. You have people left and right just spouting straight up nonsense, and all because of a game of telephone
Hey Marc, I would love a new bracelet for the Citizen FUGU and I would love it if you started carrying the citizen series 8, specifically the Batman. Love your videos, thanks for doing them!
Our BRAC-70/71 fits.
Blew my mind. Excellent video. Thanks for doing that research and putting this together. I'm so tired of people complaining about seiko prices.
(... Please get rid of that Sriracha bottle though it's really ugly 😓)
'Heritage' is a very expensive consideration when buying a watch; if you fall for it you're going to pay a massive premium. The Seiko/Steeldive Willard comparison is a great example of this. At least you'll know that your money has made some marketing people very happy... 🙂
Awesome video, you make some very salient points - but I think your last point is really the most relevant when we talk about the 'perception of value for money' - yeah in the saturated microbrand world, they DO offer better bang for buck, I bought Seiko because I percieve them to be value for money against the luxury Swiss brands for instance. So, it really depends at what end of the market you realistically want to be at. I'm never going to own a Rolex (just don't want one) but I also see other watch brands in that category that for me (my perception, marketing whatever) offer better value for money - if not the same bragging rights (but since when do real horologists care about that!). I think Seiko, due to the market shifts and the issues you pointed out, are in a bit of quandry though... espcially in that value (shopping mall price) entry to mid level - watches have already lost out to smart watches (yeah we can howl about it but the numbers show this to be true), so how do we introduce new and youngsters to the joy of watches? If they are going to be considered a little more 'up market' - in price, maybe they need to offer better value for money? I understand that production costs and the sheer industrial might and commercial reach they have can make this trickier - but come on, no sapphire for an entry level mechanical watch?
I am all ears since Mark is the most honest and customer focused watch dealer I've ever known. I still have my Seiko Atlas he sold me in the mid-2000s for $365 or so....but back in 2018, I paid $1800 for a Seiko Presage....When base Seiko got too expensive for the specs, I bought my wife one of Mark's Lon Island Watch creations and she adores it--for $350. My grail watch is still a Grand Seiko and when the time comes I hope I can still by it around $7k-8k....
Great explanation! Honestly, I don’t remember when I last bought a Seiko. I grew up on Long Island so I love wearing my Islander watches. Even my wife questioned me one day. “Why do you want a Rolex? You can get an Islander!” 😎
Very well explained Mark