Like you said, keeping it “exclusive” will be the death of everything. I want everyone and their mother to shoot 4x5. As for film in general, I want every celebrity to shoot it. I want every influencer to shoot it. I want every politician to shoot it. All these videos and posts about them ruining it? Nah. Definitely leaning towards more personable interactions as well to push along the aspect of community. One zoom talk or in person interaction with real people breaks down the walls that separate us with social media. It makes everyone seem human and less like words on a screen. Appreciate all you do, Mr. Marrash.
When film almost died a lot of photographers realized that they need to share the knowledge they have and teach or at least support the newer generation or else film was going to actually dissappear. As someone who's into different crafts, hobbies... I can testify that the film community is one of the most welcoming out there. I'm glad that I'm a part of the community and I appreciate all the help and encouragement I've gotten. In Film We Trust
Sorry you had to say this but glad you did. 99% of us here are doing this because it's a hobby. Something we do for fun so we need to be supportive and helpful. I like what you said; "Don't be a dick". That could be the title of the show. As always thank you.
Thanks Mat for speaking the truth. Being female and in a crowd of greybeards has not always been a welcoming experience. But my love of photography is far stronger than the occasional visits of: being ignored, doses of chauvinism ( a lot of "thank you gentlemen" ignoring any female participation) and down right rudeness a few gatekeepers continually toss my way. They toss it to others as well, but being female in the LFF community can be a cold place. A few greybeards are great, I am guessing it is because they are secure with themselves, etc. And the younger guys are the best, like you.
I agree totally with everything you just said. My experiences have been very similar ot just in photography but some of my other interests that are typically more male dominated.
Some of the accounts I've heard and seen online with my female photographer friends are appalling. I commend all the women out there for sticking with large format and helping to bring new ideas to the community!
You'd be welcome here anytime..Myself and a buddy do fun filled workshops to help folk start in large format. I can't understand those folk who know their shit but won't reach out to help a newby....It takes guts and sometimes a lot of anxiety to ask a question as a beginner... We all got to start somewhere and for sure they did. I say if you dont want to reach out to hrlp thats your chioce which I'll respect but please don't spread negativity if you want to exercise that right and remain tight lipped. Fortunately there are plenty of folk who will reach out to help. Matt was spot on with this subject. There is a lot of chauvinism and mysoginistic attitude in society as a whole. Im guessing the various SM groups just reflect this.
A very necessary topic, well stated. If we tear people down when they come into the community then they don't stick around and buy more film, chemicals and cameras and the trickle down effects from that are a very real concern. It takes so little effort to encourage someone who is looking for encouragement or tips and often times you end up learning something yourself in the process. A rising tide floats all boats in a small harbor.
You are so on the point. Analogue photography can die very quickly if people insist on gatekeeping on the other hand as the famous quote goes "sharing is caring". The more you share your knowledge with others, the stronger the community will become and ultimately the longer this great art will live happily ever after. I have learnt tons from you and your channel and without that I wouldn't dare even thinking about taking large format photos! So, thank you for being so generous with your knowledge and a force for the growth of the community.
This episode reminded me about something that happened in my "day job" professional career. I used to be a IBM Lotus Notes/Domino administrator for 17 years. One of the issues with that product (one of many) was that the vendor didn't always provide the best resources or documentation on how to use the product or fix broke issues. I started attending the big dollar yearly conference each January and it was there that I met many people, many of which I still consider dear friends. This was about the time in the early 2000's when Twitter and Blogging were just taking off. And that's how we all stayed in touch and shared our on the ground experiences and issues that we saw day in/day out in the workplace. And that mentoring was there. We openly shared and collaborated in the early forms of social media and it was great! I don't know how many times something that someone posted saved my bacon! Yes, there was gatekeeping within that community like others, but there more more honest and open help given when needed. I started blogging as well, sharing my tips and tricks and actually took it as far as presenting at that conference one year. A 90 minute show and tell on how to create a custom installation package of the software and deployment. That was a lot of pressure, but another member of the community with much more speaking experience then I had reached out without me asking and offered his help. I took him up on it and he was my "Vanna White", he ran the slides while I rambled on going over my slides and steps that I spent months preparing. He said he would jot down on a notepad between us any tips along the way, like if I was losing them, etc. About 30 minutes in he wrote "You're doing great!". So because of that mentoring and non-judgemental help, it helped me achieve something professionally. People payed a lot of money to attend this conference and the fact that I was speaking at it was amazing. So yes, when you can, offer that help, openness and love for what you do to others without judgement. It really goes a long way.
Andy thanks for sharing your story, what a fantastic example of peers helping each other develop their skills. It's a win for the student, and in the long run its a win for community!
Thank you for doing this video. This issue overshadowed our photography club for a couple of years. The club has been in existence since the late '90s. I joined it around 2006. If you didn't have a background in journalism, graphic arts, or owned a camera store, you didn't have much to offer. For about the last 14 years, that exclusion view has been purged. We have beginners to professionals who work together and give back to the community we are part of. Keep-on-keeping on is the buzzword.
Very well said. I'm a member of a couple of communities. The analog film photography community where I'm just getting back into something I loved forty years ago. The other is the digital vintage/retro community focused on Apple Macintosh computers. Gatekeeping is a universal challenge everywhere we go. Each of us has the capacity to be an agent for community growth and inclusion. Thank you.
Thanks so much, Mat, for a great talk over a very important topic. I don't know how many times I've seen snarky replies to genuine questions from newbies on camera forums (regardless of format). Largely the film community has been wonderfully friendly and helpful (in my experience) but maybe we need more 'moderators' around to keep it so. You've inspired me to speak up in those forum situations, to do my part to keep the community I love as open and friendly as possible. Peace!
You, the FPP and of course Photostock are the antithesis of gatekeeping! And all three have inspired me to stay positive, always be willing to help and share everything I know! Thank you for all you do!
Pretty much everything about how this channel is run is based off those awesome experiences from FPP and Photostock. Really hoping to start seeing more regional meetups with a similar sharing vibe!
As always your videos are inspiring. When I am in my home area of China I draw a crowd when shooting with my large format camera. People are surprised to see it.
In that regard, a great textbook of mine when I studied Professional Photography at Rochester Institute of Technology was View Camera Technique by Leslie Stroebel. This is THE classic textbook for Large format photography.
Hi Matt, thank you for making this video, I'm constantly berated, for not using certain kit, or" holding the camera the right way" etc. even though I spent years as an assistant and shooting professionally, even on film and large format. its not enough, I even walked away form my channel for a year because i felt like it was just arguing with old men about cameras, which for me has nothing to do with photography, and it didn't honour the memory of the old boys who shared it all with me in the beginning..
Oliver thanks for the comment and I'm glad to see you sticking with it. Really digging the latest Iceland series with the Hasselblad! Knowing what goes into filming all of that while doing a location shoot is tough and you're doing a great job!
I made the mistake of starting my channel by diving back into analogue cameras that I either fondly remember or wish I’d had back in the day. It definitely seemed to attract that demographic. Although I also came across some genuinely good people too, that negative clutching at knowledge and disparaging the knowledge of others for the sake of feeling superior really does put you off.
@@MatMarrash @chronicallyPhotographic none of the photographers I assisted or worked with as a kid really cared about the gear they used, they knew how to use them and what was in there kit, but to talk about cameras over pictures was swiftly ignored. This time I’m doing it mostly for me, I’m a tv cameraman 8/10’days and photographer the other 2 these days, using the old cameras these days is nostalgic and takes me back to basics. I love that you’ve been able to keep up week in and week out, and I’ll keep watching.
I have been incredibly lucky in that the people around me and most of the sources I've looked for help with all my LF/film stuff (this channel included) have been overwhelmingly welcoming and open with their knowledge and time. I know this is not the case for everyone, especially people who don't match the preconception of the "typical" photographer, and it's sad and frustrating that it's the case. I cannot imagine pouring so much time, energy, and money into something like this and then not wanting to share every part of it you can with anyone who asks.
This is spot on! I have been kicked out of 3 Wet Plate Collodion groups over the past 10 years. This is rampant in photography on social media. Wet Plate is very specialized and there was a very small group of "experts" that would invalidate so many new comers to the process. I have and will continue to push back against such gatekeepers, I just simply knock the keys to the gate out of their hands.
Well said, Mat. Much of what I know about LF I acquired by asking stupid questions to which old hands (some very old) generously and wisely replied. Gatekeepers are simply selfish, but they do harm by encouraging others to believe they should be gatekeepers, too. Beginners who blunder and make mistakes (as I did and still do) should be gently (and without condescension) told what the best practices are. There is a wealth of experience to draw on, and it's a wealth to be shared.
Matt, sorry you had to make this video, but I’m glad that you had the commitment to do so. I always look forward to your videos, that really expose (haha) everything in large format photography… good, bad, and the, ugly. Don’t let the haters tear ya down.
You got yourself a sub. Well said. I’ve seen it and tried to fight it for decades now. I even experienced it as a photography assistant after finishing my photography degree, where my then boss wouldn’t ever take the time to give me advice and would actively try and knock my confidence because, in his words, he didn’t “want to create a competitor down the line”. He went out of business not long after I left because IMO it’s an entirely counterproductive mindset. I’ve just taken possession of my first 5x4 camera in over twenty years and I hope to pick the brains of the community and be of help in return when I can. You’re right btw, it’s in all walks of life. I’m a gamer too and have seen it get worse there as more and more people get into the hobby. I’m just happy that more and more people understand it, enjoy it and continue to make it a viable endeavour for the people who make them. The same applies in photography. More people taking up large format or analogue or using digital cameras to make work that interests and drives them; those people aren’t a threat to the hobby. They’re the future lifeblood. The threat is people who won’t let it grow.
I just got into 4x5 (Chamonix 45F2) And just LOVE IT, I love it sooooo much that i decided to learn how to develop 4x5 myself (Stearman SP-445 SYSTEM), I have to agree with you, we MUST get others involved in this format to save it from disappearing, EXCLUSIVITY turns many people away and never look at it again!
Great point. I've noticed that these group and forum members who snub newbies are the ones who publish photos the least, their subject comes down to technical matters and equipment testing
That has been a lot of my own experience with online spaces, especially forums. I think the more time we take to understand each others specialties, the more we can help each other. There is as much need for the technical as there is for the artistic side of things, so long as we create a space where they are equal.
Great video Matt, gatekeeping is as ridiculous as it sounds. I enjoy photography in several formats and long may it continue. I am yet to try large format, but it is on my bucket list and I will give it a go someday as it intrigues me. Whatever format you enjoy, keep enjoying it and making both wonderful memories and prints. Let the gatekeepers chew their own elbows off in their toxic forums and social media platforms, they will never change.
Matt, Good stuff! You have been one of the best in the online photo community with respect to "gate keeping". We need more folks shooting film, all film, if we want access to our materials. That's being selfish! I love helping folks and have given away four enlargers and at least a dozen cameras to folks who were interested. These weren't cheap cameras or cheap darkroom pieces; but these were people genuinely interested. It made me feel better to give away equipment I was no longer using to those that had an interest. The elitist attitude has always existed in photography. I went to RIT in the early nineties. Richard Zakia and Leslie Stroebel were my teachers! Film photography was the ONLY photography. Now that so much of this information is "arcane" I see misinformation and elitism growing. I have left many online groups because people are just being dicks. Anyone born after 1990 is most likely to know nothing about analog photography. Why would you be a jerk to them? Ignorance is not stupidity. Anyone who wants to try film should receive support from those of us who have been doing it. And know, you have gotten me back into shooting large format. My darkroom allows me to shoot process and enlarge all the way up to 8x10. I hadn't shot 8x10 in decades. We need more folks like you out there sharing. Oh, and BTW, in the nineties everyone treated platinum like a dark art...watching you coat and print (and create a low cost UV unit) made me realize it's not scary. My goal next year is platinum printing. My ultimate goal is carbon transfer and a try at photogravure. I will not be going to ULF! You're a brave soul! Keep up the good work!
Thank you so much and wow, having Leslie Stroebel as a teacher!! I can definitely see where a lot of older and alt. processes might have been treated like a dark art prior to the 2000s. Even when I was starting in film, there wasn't a lot of information outside of a blog or forum posts. Access to video and streaming has opened up the flood gates in terms of sharing information. Nothing to be scared of with Pt/Pd besides the cost of the metals. Once dialed-in, it's also a very consistent hand-coated process. Oh and stay tuned if you're looking into carbon and photogravure!
I 100% agree!!! For the most part, I feel that any knowledge I have is freely shared ... why keep your skills secret when you can help another person!!! There is no stupid questions, we should help others if we have the ability!!!
Thank you for this video. I myself have experienced some form of gatekeeping when I started out in photography around the early 2000. DSLR was starting to gain popularity. I could not afford one as I was still studying so I still used a film SLR. There was an online photography forum in Singapore which I joined. The people inside were mostly nice people. But there were a few who felt they were more arty farty than the rest, especially people like me who just started. I was laughed, mocked repeated times behind my back. I learn to keep my distance away from them. Do not do onto others what you do not want others to do to you. I always remind myself of this and tell myself not to be like them. Keep up the good work, Matt. I do not shoot large format myself but maybe one day I will make the leap. :)
Jacky thanks for sharing your experience with gatekeeping and I'm glad that you stuck with photography! And when you make that LF leap, always feel free to ask those questions here!
I don't see this exclusivity much on the various photo forums I follow, but, when I do, I simply don't engage. And my mantra always is: There are no stupid questions.
Your video was very thought provoking. There are several online forums that I stopped using because of this problem. If it isn't gatekeeping there are those who see themselves as the "middle managers" of the hobby. It gets old quickly. Photography is a passion for me and I want others to enjoy it as much as I do. I am fascinated by the many different ways to express yourself with this hobby. I just subsrcribed to your channel as I am enjoying the content My initial foray into photography was b&w film/darkroom in the early 90s. Don't know if I will ever get into LF, but I enjoy seeing the work produced with LF
the only negative thing in photography should only be that thing you put into your camera (regardless which size) to capute the photons. Okay , that's a dad joke, maybe it's because we are both watching this video
You are absolutely correct, couldn’t have said it better myself. I’m so lucky as to have friends who would share and encourage me with all their knowledge so I’m turn I’m doing my best to pass that on to anyone I can help.
Nice video.Never heard the term used but I get it. For some reason I doubt that I have experienced it in any way since I normally work in a digital world, which has a common language and technique. Much different from the esoteric world of Large Format. I like the idea of paying forward. Something many of us try and do in our local camera clubs.
NEVER HEARD OF YOU...PRIOR TO A MEMBER POSTED THIS VIDEO ON A FORUM...AND I'M GLAD THAT PERSON DID! GREAT VIDEO ON A TOPIC THAT IS VERY REAL IN SOCIETY!!! SUBBED AND GOING TO LOOK DEEPER INTO YOUR WORKS AND LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING MORE FROM YOU! KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK!!!🤘🏾🤘🏾👊🏾 - THE BLACKMAN ARMED WITH A CAMERA
Yes, this! I live in a rural area where there definitely aren't many film photographers. Every time I meet someone who seems interested in film photography (35mm, since that's all I shoot), I offer to lend them a camera and a roll of film, and always offer to help them develop their first roll. and I'm open to letting people borrow some of my developing equipment (tank and changing bag, etc.) on occasion. It's so fun to try and bring more people into the fold of photography.
Thanks you for all the helpful advice that you give us. I’ve been doing film photography for over a decade, and I still feel so new to it. I find myself asking questions all the time and continuing to learn from others has been a great benefit in my journey of this wonderful art. This Might sound like a cliché, but long live film!!
The true joy in anything is in the sharing. Sharing knowledge and encouragements is probably the best reward there is. It's free and brings so much happiness to others. And what's free and makes others happy has no reason not to make you a happier person! I just started doing my own C-41 processing and if it wasn't for others sharing their information, I wouldn't have ever started. While I did mess-up a bit my first roll, it's OK as I think everybody does that when they start 😊
Great topic. I got a chuckle out of the simplified version :) Gatekeeping has been going on for as long as I can remember. I got lucky and found the Texas Photography Forum, aka TPF, (sadly now defunct) very early in my "digital phase". The forum had a small mix of studio pros, wedding pros, wildlife pros, sports pros, combined with people like me that had been shooting with no direction since I was 6, people that that thought they were pros, people that wanted to be a pro, etc. Ie... a bunch of photographers that enjoyed one anothers interactions. We had meetups, workshops, etc. Most were free. Some of us gravitated to one another and we'd plan small group shoots (and invite whoever wanted to come). When I got into TPF I had been shooting 35mm film for decades, quite poorly I might add, lol. A motorcycle wreck convinced me to take on a safer hobby :) and I converted the insurance check for my VTX1800R into a EOS 1D and a couple of lenses. I already had a pretty decent selection that went with my 1N so I was set. So I thought. I quickly learned what I didn't know and knuckled down to the task of learning. The people of TPF made a huge difference. That forum and the workshops that I've done since were the best thing I could have done for my photography. Imagine sitting next to a professional wildlife photographer and getting 1:1 training with nothing spent but the travel expenses. I've only been to one LF workshop and that was in Death Valley. I didn't take away any great masterpieces but I learned a lot from Michael Gordon. I wish he was still doing LF workshops. That man knows Death Valley better than anyone I've ever met. Anyway... blathering on forever again, you are spot on. But I know for a fact a small community can influence the larger community... I've seen it.
Michael TPF sounds like it was a fantastically run club, and something for all photography groups to aspire to! And thanks for mentioning the work of Michael Gordon, wow! His B&W work, especially "The Desert Speaks" is spectacular.
@@MatMarrash Michael is an outstanding photographer and his love for and knowledge of the desert knows no bounds. We spent a week traveling through DV. It was one of the most exhausting, exhilarating, and enjoyable trips of my life. By then he had moved to digital so I shed my 4x5 and pared the equipment down to maximize the time I had. His watermark came from the Racetrack btw. The best way I know for someone to experience Death Valley is hire him to show you around and tell him to go where he wants to go :)
Your video is an example of the kind of leadership that is in-service rather than self-serving. Inclusive snobbery is the thing that divides communities, that prevents us all, in the simplest way possible, from getting along. I discovered your channel recently after I bought a Wista 45. I love the process and the unique look of 4x5 after only 10 shots as of writing this comment! I suspect I will binge all your LFF seasons in the next week while I'm on vacay. Thanks for the work , expertise and integrity you put into your episodes!
David thanks so much for the comment and glad you found the channel! I'll admit that there is a selfish angle to growing the large format community, it increases our odds of having access to the tools and film for years to come. ;)
Being a bit older I have experienced this many time, I shoot traditional muzzleloaders, I prefer a canoes over speed boats, cross country skies over snow mobiles and of course diddling with a 1909 view camera. When folk criticize this, tell them I certainly enjoyed doing what you do, but I found doing what I do to be more fun. When I read criticism of someone's photo, I point out that art is opinion, and the artist's opinion is all that matters.
I was out of town when this posted, and I'm so glad this finally popped up again so I didn't miss it. So necessary for this community to face it, and for it to be addressed.
Thanks Mat for sharing and discussing this important topic. If we want the hobby to be around, we need to encourage new hobbyist. It’s all learning process and us experienced photographers should be happy to help the new photographers. I also see alot of ageism in the community. We all can learn from one another regardless of age. If Ansel Adams were alive today, he would be 120 years old, and even at 120 I would be down to learn from a master photographer.
In a creative, visual medium like photography age is just a number. I'll gladly learn from someone younger or far older than myself. Some of the best photographers I know are retirees that are using that extra time they have to make more expressive work.
James I totally get how you're feeling. There are few areas of photography that I've recently started tinkering where it feels like I know nothing. But being brand new at something again is a great way to develop new skills and habits that benefit the rest of your interests. Cheers!
Photostock is great for inspiration and I highly recommend it! The way the RA-4 paper reverses from B&W negative to color positive makes it "feel" like a a wet plate, and with the super lower ISO, typically 1-3 it handles similarly in exposure.
If it wasn't for your channel and others who shared what they knew with me I wouldn't have even attempted getting into large format...let alone build my first 4x5 camera. Thank you for everything you do making this more accessible.
Great take! I just don't share my work online with strangers. I guess I'm too thin-skinned, but it just takes one jerk to ruin the experience for me. Gatekeeping exists in all hobbies. I'm always surprised at this, especially in hobbies that are "dying" because new people aren't coming into them, in part because of the gatekeepers! Amateur radio and model railroading are hobbies I enjoy that fall squarely into this category. It's mostly reasonable folks, but there are enough people feeling that the hobby "belongs" to them exclusively to turn "outsiders" off. These hobbies have enough challenges keeping alive these days without gatekeepers discouraging newcomers!
Great thoughts. Have only come across your channel in the last week and been enjoying it. I too have participated in some gatekeeping in the past in my other hobby which is sports cards and collectibles. It can get ridiculous and toxic. Anyway, I'm hoping to build a 4x5 pinhole camera this fall. I discovered a new DIY woodworking shop in my small town in Korea. I figure it will be a fun process and a way to enjoy large format.
Hobby v Commercial. I grew up and was educated in analogue. I loved it because you had to understand the science, and, be creative - this was an opportunity. Digital means, 'just being creative', as the science has been relinquished - not a bad thing, just an observation. Every time you press the shutter button with analogue, it costs you money. So, I think some people tend to be a little more possessive since they have invested time and money to develop something new or a new style. Not so much with digital (apart from common filters and their application), however, it does give rise to a new culture of image making. Heck, we don't even need actors anymore for the screen - just have to look at Love, Death and Robots. I agree with what Mat says, up to the point, until it may impact on trade/commercial/IP secrets. However, analogue, being such a mature craft, I can't see much of the above being threatened. I just learned split grade printing - that was probably a trade secret for someone at some stage. Kudos on letting the world know. I think most people enjoy providing solutions to the masses - egotistically, it makes you feel good to contribute. Many years ago, I was very secretive about my 'bullet time' work. Being only 1 of 4 in the world who could reliably provide it, meant there was a commercial advantage to keep those secrets. My early breakthroughs have now become Avant Guard, but it did take 10-15 years for these solutions to be common practice. Older and wiser now. I have little problem providing solutions that benefit everyone. Even with my 'state of the art'170 dslr array in a truck for photogrammetry, I have publicised a trade secret with cross polarisation. No doubt, people will copy it, however, the industry (high end feature film) enjoys working with ground breakers. In a very small way, I am a hero. You can really only let people know of your R&D breakthroughs by advertising it with a discussion. The people who employ you appreciate the competitive edge you have, right now, rather than waiting for someone else to develop it. Unreal (no connection), an example of a large corporate, have released tools that benefit the greater good, for free - it is the future. Film continues to be used in the higher end feature film industry. High end cinematographers have no barriers when it comes to discussing their craft (although, there are few who have an opportunity to exploit this). I have worked on Elvis, Mortal Kombat, La Brea, FOE and others, and happy to share much of what I do (up to a point:)). You are recognised as a serious player if you contribute. As a hobby, it feels warm to share, however, commercially it is still sensitive. At age 63, I can't imagine why people try to be gate keepers with a hobby, they really have nothing to gain in the long term. If you have something new, that is a benefit, you will be seen as a hero.
Thank you Mat for an excellent presentation. Appreciate your time, commitment and dedication. One of your best videos. Inspiring, motivating, encouraging and timely. Keep up the excellent work.
Thanks Matt. You are super welcoming and a great resource for those of us dabbling in large format. Luckily I haven't observed much unpleasant behavior, one or two examples but certainly in the minority. Quick question: Steve O'Nions just put up a video where he used a laser pointer pointing at his subject (a tree) as a focusing aide with a very slow lens, as something visible on the ground glass, just curious if you have tried this. A bit dangerous to use with portraits but for landscapes seems useful, just not to be pointed up in the sky as they are also dangerous to airplane pilots if the light is strong enough. Currently playing with black and white reversal, I never heard of RA-4 reversal but will look into it!
I appreciate this message, especially as someone who has shot large format for many years. It's important to share your knowledge. However, I'm not giving up locations I spent hours, days, weeks, or months trying to find... If you have to ask for locations or spots, usually you're not dedicated enough to search yourself.
I've been in some niche hobbies that seemed like they were fading away -- tabletop roleplay gaming looks like it was circling the drain until D&D 5th Edition came out; model rocketry (for adults) was thinning out pretty rapidly when I left that because of costs; even traditional radio control model flying isn't as big as it was in the '80s. And all of those suffer from some level or kind of gatekeeping. And then there's film photography, and more so large format. My take on it has always been "If you want to try it, try it. It's not that difficult, doesn't have to be prohibitively expensive, and it's a lot of fun!" I've helped people identify ways to get the most bang for their buck, including by using cameras that are most of a century old, developing their own film, and so forth. None of this stuff is *hard* -- I developed film without adult supervision at age 10, and a library is still a good source for the information you need to learn exposure and processing controls. IMO, the *hardest* thing about large format is cost -- it's hard to make film less expensive, though you don't have to buy Kodak or Ilford (Fomapan or Shanghai is about half the price per sheet). You can develop in very little space with Df96 monobath; there's not much in the way of Zone controls, but it gets the images, and you can get decent digitization of negatives with that phone you pulled out. A working 4x5 camera can still be had for under $200 including lens in shutter -- but used film holders aren't as easy to find or as cheap as they used to be. In the end, the real barrier to entry is knowing large format is the way to the kind of photography you're interested in (whether that's Zone System, movements, or just images big enough to see well in a contact print) -- and you keep spreading the word on that. As do I (though I'm not as audible as you).
You're 100% on access being the biggest barrier to entry in niche hobbies that are growing more expensive. One of the big goals of this channel is to provide a bit more context to what it means to get into large format. Thanks for being an ambassador for LF and film photography!
What a great video and so necessary. I've been enjoying your channel for a while, but this is the one that convinced me to to become a member. Thanks Mat.
I think one of the most important things is being humble and kind to others. Everyone has something we can learn from them and people who are new ask the questions we've forgotten about but should really be thinking about Funny thing is the other day I was messing around with my miniature format view camera and shooting digitally. It took me until I took the whole rig down and looked closely at my photos to realize that I had hit some significant diffraction. I had stopped down the lens to f22, but because of the magnification I was at (4:1) my effective aperture was much higher (f107??). Why I had it set up this way I had no idea because I could have had the lens almost wide open and used some tilt to get what I wanted. The photos looked like they were from a pinhole and the rainbow patterning off the matte metal was quite interesting. Next time I know what to do, but wow that effect was interesting. I wonder what I could do with it As much as I love my large format view camera I do have a lot of fun shooting miniature format full frame digital. I also very much adore my micro 4/3s setup. When you go into the micro 4/3s world and read all the comments on videos, you see all these negative comments, many of them are from people I'm familiar with who shoot miniature format full frame and don't shoot micro 4/3s. Something about the format being dead, stepping up to a "real full frame" this that and the other thing. It's such a pity to see these people who are regulars on the videos I watch go to negative town on a different format they don't care for. Some of my lightest and heaviest lenses are for my micro 4/3 system, but most importantly I love the pictures I can create with those lenses Similarly, sometimes people give me flack for using digital (what do you mean you shoot a view camera digitally? Such sacrilege). I use both digital and film, and I can get results I need and want. I have bellows and bellows lenses for the miniature format image circle. It's fun that way I think photography is powerful because it's another way people can express themselves. Sometimes we can communicate and say things in photos that we don't have the words for yet. This is why I make photos and I love looking at the photos others make. From a cell phone to a large monorail, I don't care. If you make images I'll love to look at them
You hit the nail on the head about the power of photography! It's truly a universal language that we can use to express so many things. And even though I'd like to always be shooting LF, there are so many times where another format makes a whole lot more sense. Heck, all the content on this channel is shot with a crop-frame mirrorless camera, and to get better at digital informs all my other photographic work.
@@MatMarrash I do also usually take the things I learn on digital back to film. Film is really quite expensive these days, and I feel that it's hard to feel free to test things out. On digital I can experiment with it to make sure what I'm doing works before I try it on film. I use a lot of historical tricks on digital including ways to make ghost and spirits and special effects. I do my own developing, but wow each box of sheets of 4x5 costs as much as a new Sandisk Extreme Pro 256GB UHS-I memory card. I got my first Nikon digital body after I paid a $750 bill to get my films (a combo of miniature format 35 mm and medium format 120 rolls) developed and scanned. I got a Nikon digital body because I have a Nikon F2 and they could share lenses. I get a lot of joy out of my digital Nikon. I use the same lenses and I get largely similar results, but now I can stretch out and try crazy things and it's ok if it doesn't work out. With each exposure I learn something new, take notes, and try again I feel like we have made full circle in photography. Mirrorless is basically the exact same technology as many of our large format cameras. You're focusing and composing directly on the film plane. Now with the Nikon Z9, we're going back to the times were there's no built in mechanical shutter. My great grandma used her lens cap as a shutter. Her 8x10 and 4x5 view cameras had no built in mechanical shutters With crop sensor lol I have my view camera. I also have plenty of roll film backs (another way to cut costs on sheet film). This is one of the ways we did "crop sensor." There is no shame in being crop sensored. Yes sure my lens covers 4x5 or 5x7 but I'm using a little 67 roll film back for 120. It's just like micro 4/3 vs full frame miniature format! We are a lot more the same than we are different, even in the technology we use
Yes, unfortunately very common in many hobbies. That's one of the reasons most of my hobbies are things I can do by myself, I just can't stand the social hierarchies, power struggle and ego tripping in most clubs. I also have dropped a couple of more social hobbies because I felt I was not welcome, the clubs have a hierarchy where the older members seem to think any newcomer, especially if they are knowledgeable on the subject or have other skills that can be adapted, are a threat to their superiority and position in the hierarchy, so they try to "put them in their place" by belittling them and keeping them out of the "inner circle" and doing so they drive away the very people who might actually have something valuable to give to the community. Also, as I have multiple hobbies and I'm not rich, I have noticed there are a lot of "wealthy snobs" in many communities. They are the people who think a person's value is determined by the amount of money they have to use on a hobby and despise anyone who's interested in more low budget alternatives. In my experience this is not so common in film photography but for example music world is full of people who think you have no right to play, say, the cello or violin, if you can't afford to spend thousands and thousands on instruments and lessons and the services of an expert repairer every time your instrument requires something more than a tuning. Fortunately in the film community most people accept you even if you shoot with old Soviet cameras or even a DIY pinhole camera. One group of "gatekeepers" are of course the fanatics. They take themselves and the hobby dead serious, it's the most important thing in their lives, they eat, drink and breathe their chosen hobby and spend all their spare time and money on it. Of course this kind of dedication is admirable but it often causes them to look down and despise those who reduce their all consuming passion into a "mere hobby" and do it for fun, maybe even have other hobbies or important things in their life. I tend to run into these a lot as, as said, I have multiple hobbies and I tend to sometimes concentrate on something and sometimes on something else.
Completely hear you on this and yeah, I agree that gatekeeping really has become a big problem in all forms of photography, and especially in film. I've seen it far too many times that someone will ask about something in a forum or comments section and just get put down by some old hand who thinks they know everything and clearly hates the idea of anyone who isn't exactly like them taking part in the community. Literally two days ago I read an old forum post asking about using barrel process lenses as shooting lenses (I was looking at the same lenses as they're *really cheap*!) and the top comment was basically just telling them they were an idiot for even trying and should just get a "real" lens. There's just no excuse for it, and we all need to call it out when we see it. You're a "real" photographer if you create photographic images. That's it. You can be doing it with a Deardorff, a paint can with a hole in it, or anything in between. I will admit I've also been guilty of some gatekeeping in the past, not just in photography but in all my interests, but this video has made me feel more inspired than ever to share, be open, and to call out bad behaviour when I see it. If we can all do that, then we'll all have a community we can be proud of that'll be around much longer than any of us.
You remind me because one time I saw this really cool barrel lens. I never got it, but in my family my great grandmother used a barrel lens to start off her photography business. She shot 8x10 and 4x5 and used the lens cap as her shutter
@@Bunnyisms I guess for a while that was the only type of lens there was, and even after they invented shutters not everyone would've had access to them. Shame you passed on the one you'd seen before, but like I said, it seems like there are a lot of really inexpensive ones on Ebay if you fancied trying them out and maybe emulating what your great grandmother would've experienced shooting with them. I have to say I'd love to see some of the images she created back in her day too, especially as I'd wager she probably experienced more than her fair share of gatekeeping as a woman in a photography world that I imagine was even more male-dominated than it is today!
@@yetanotherbassdude She was primarily into portraits and I have a few of hers. She also cut up rolls of aero film for her cameras. She'd get them in drums at the PX store. I didn't get the lens because I already have a lot of lenses and didn't have space for it. I tell people that now we're so high tech and my lenses have shutters in them! She died when I was really little and I remember peering up over the window at her lying there. She was a powerful matriarch in my family and ran everything. Her husband ran their house and did the cleaning. She ran the business. She knew her power and her worth and didn't let anything stop her. She was tough! I think we have made a full circle with things because mirrorless works exactly like large format did in the past. You are focusing on the film plane directly. Also now with the Nikon Z9 we're going back to not having a mechanical shutter like we did with the barrel lenses
I can see group photo walks falling into the territory of gatekeeping easily. Which is weird to me because for a hobby that is heavily centered around social media and content creation, you would think people are more open to networking, or scratch each other’s backs. But instead, get looked down upon like you’re inferior. In my city we use to have a photography page that did group walks regularly, but after a certain period, it died down and never happened.
There was a brief period in between the rise of DSLR's and the peak of Instagram where it seemed like there were photowalks happening all the time. Here in Columbus, OH, this type of meetup has been a rarity. I definitely thing that the "competition" aspect of everyone comparing cameras quickly turned off new photographers to the hobby. The film meetups, though few and far between, have always been pretty inviting...but typically because the community is so much smaller.
I face gatekeepers every time that I ask technical question online, specially in Facebook groups. Is a particular way of gatekeeping, is the shape of patronising speech and misleading answers (via responding things much more basics that the question to be addressed). Is so infuriating!
It's fear of being ousted out of the throne. Gatekeepers are comfortable and don't want to be challenged, or that someone will take the hobby in a different direction that will make them not "kings" anymore. Anyway these people will be make redundant anyway, and aren't imortal. Hey just have fun and experiment, learn new techniques, ideas and have fun doing new things. If someone wants to keep doing what they've always done, fine, just don't try to stop others from doing different. Great video Mat
It really does boil down to a progressive approach versus a static one. And I really like that you added that final point, it's okay to do things they way you do them but not at the cost of others' progress. Cheers!
I have a motto: Photography (the kind I/we do) is a "cultural activity". If you over think *any* cultural activity it appears pointless but cultural activities are the only things that makes like worth living. They are done for their own sake not for a result. Most of the negativity (gate keeping) you get from people is because they are suffering. They have committed to something and they haven't embraced the fact that it is simultaneously pointless and worthwhile. They are trying to find an intellectual justification for doing something that is only worth doing because it is fun. So compassion for the trolls, they are in pain and perhaps wrestling with a little depressive rumination about the point of life.
Let's face it, the more people that shoot LF and more generally analog, there will become better choices in film stocks and chemicals and who knows, prices may go down ;)
Time to break down those walks. There is SO much snobbery in LF. So what if you have a cheap camera, can only afford Fomapan (great film btw) and you have a 'consumer grade' scanner. It's all good.
The only thing I'll ever gate keep about film photography is when people simply digitize all of their images. Many people talk about enjoying the "mechanical" blah blah, but the only contact they have with film is puitting it into their camera, then sending it to a lab. Its just digital photography but with extra steps.
The important thing to note is we're all free to our opinions and way of doing things. So long as your definition of being a film photographer isn't dissuading or stunting the growth of others, it's all good. Besides, you can help recruit folks to your way of thinking by showing them the differences between scans versus prints or helping them make prints in the darkroom.
@@MatMarrash It's more like a jab..Rather than a barrage. I always end my mocking statements in "if you love analog process, then here's an awesome darkroom set up I found for you for less than $300!" :p
I always tell people that the only "Silly" or "stupid" question is one you don't ask. I also think some of the problem is people who are seeing the prices of gear rise due to increased demand - people just being greedy and sour.
RA-4 reversal process? That sounds interesting! Sounds as if I missed something. Hmm, maybe I should actually consider to get into 8x10 pinhole with that … but it might be much harder than the "traditional" film negative way (reciprocity failure - is it as severe with RA-4 paper as it is with film?).
The gatekeeping and attitudes are so bad from a small minority of the community that I don’t frequent any photography forums or groups anymore. Some of the responses I’ve seen to totally reasonable questions have been pretty shocking. It’s not just film photography either, I see this in the digital community too.
Scott I've felt the same way about interacting on groups and forums. The last few years I've been more "lurker" status because of some of the back and forth. There are a few, well moderated exceptions out there, but gatekeeping is still present.
Film was dying when I started it seriously c. 1993. The alt.photo group was my main source of education, where information was shared across generations and nations. Everyone was generous with experience and copious notes. The late Judy Siegal was the Den Mother for Post-Factory photography. She was funny, had deep technical knowledge of gum and cyanotype paper choice and technique and published a magazine. The only gatekeeping I found was in the dealer's community. I then had a full plate wood camera, and was looking for film holders. I was told "You are crazy for thinking this format can be shot, as it is irrelevant now." I sold the camera, to my regret. Another gatekeeping is by the local photo association, who have said film doesn't exist, and won't accept anything other than a jpeg file for critique. The Maker Space in town won't even consider a darkroom space because "The chemistry is too toxic and it can't be disposed of safely." Not true-I talked to the County disposal and read the laws. As an offering in opposition to gatekeeping, would anyone be interested in a two bath alkaline fixer recipe-from 1904? Yep, 1904.
To CinnamonGirl and the other women following this LF channel: Thanks to you, as well, for speaking up. There's no good excuse for the chauvinist or cold-shoulder behavior you experience; it's just one more reflection of Matt's subject here, but doubly so. Continue to be strong, inspired, kind, respectful, and eager to learn -- as we all should be. Know that your example may shame a few more into becoming their better selves and living a happier life as a result.
Photography in general has gotten very cutthroat because so many people moved into the business and "wrongfully" displaced some people who have been in it for a while. I definitely have experienced gatekeeping in large format. I have this double pump Wollensak I'm trying to get running and have received far more sarcasm on forums than help
I’ve never really gotten involved with any of the online photography communities but it doesn’t surprise me that there’s a lot of gatekeeping within them. The group think is what really drives me nuts. Its like they’re worried that if they don’t repeat what everyone else is saying, there not going to be taken seriously. It’s pretty lame. If someone told me I wasn’t a “real” LF photographer because of my camera choice, I’d just laugh.
The worst part in seeing and hearing these accounts is for how many we learn about, how many more stopped pursuing photography all together? Glad to hear LFPP's stance is one that encourages growth!
A thing I think also needs to be addressed is not just the gatekeeping but the elitism as well. The fact that LF photogs use a slower more methodical process seems to be an unfortunate breeding ground for elitism. It's a thing that really negatively impacted my enjoyment of LF when I first started out trying it.
Thanks for sharing your experience and I wish I could say that this was something uncommon. Wouldn't it be amazing if we could all admit that we enjoy this rather silly way of taking a freakin' picture?! Sharing in this process [gasp] could even further our own enjoyment!
I agree with most of what you said but I don't think paywalling should be grouped in with gatekeeping. If you are a professional educator or journalist and you are providing quality content as a job or as a business you should be able to charge people for your services without being accused of gatekeeping. I do wonder if you do agree with my stance ob this because after your initial mentioning of paywalling it didn't come up again. ;) Keep up the great work!
Hey Andreas you make a great point about services provided, and yes I didn't expand much on it further because the waters get muddy. I draw the line at paywalling where greed supersedes the work. Having gone through the professional journal publication process during my undergrad, it was disappointing to see hard work sitting behind a large one time fee that paid NOTHING to the individuals nor institution responsible for that research. Journalism is tough work, and I have a lot of friends working their butts off in that field and would never decry their efforts as paywalling. Now take for example this channel; I couldn't in good conscience charge for access to these videos because much of what I learned came from other kind individuals offering their time. Now should someone want to get a hands-on lesson which takes time and resources, yeah, there's going to be some money changing hands.
@@MatMarrash Well, in my eyes the question is what you are providing yourself and how much you are asking. Let's say you've spent months learning the basics of large format photography and most of your knowledge comes from other people: One person taught you about how to calculate lenses, another person taught you about holders and role backs, a third person taught you about reciprocity and factoring in the bellows... all of this information was provided to you for free but it took you weeks. If you go ahead, take that information, edit it down to a tutorial in form of a handbook or a two hour video I don't see any problem with charging people for it. The service you provide is the collecting and editing. But I also noticed that pricing got out of hand. Back in the day people wrote books. These books had to be researched, edited, illustrated printed and physically distributed. That took a lot of time, money, materials and work by professionals. But a really good, well made book would cost like 50 to 100 USD. Today some more or less qualified, self-educated hobbyist creates a four hour video workshop, sells it as a download on his homepage but asks like 500 USD for it. That seems out of touch and has the taste of profiteering...
The two things that really get me going anymore are these two things. The first are those people that ask a question, sometimes very basic questions, that are answered by " READ THE MANUAL". Not everyone has the manual especially with older cameras and the newest cameras have manuals that run into the 100's of pages and so many menus and sub-menus. Most of the manuals are now PDF's on line and they can be difficult to navigate. The other one is the WHAT SETTINGS DID YOU USE. Yes for digital they are in the files somewhere for the image but my stock answer anymore I used the settings that I thought were the right ones for the image I envisioned .
We really need to remember, and be okay with, the fact that there are people that think and feel differently from ourselves. It’s easy to feel that someone is “degrading” a passion you love, but in reality it’s just different, and that’s a good thing. Gotta remember, even Ansel Adam’s believed that allowing the masses to participate in photography, it would degrade the art form into nothingness. He was wrong. Participate in this space for yourself, guide others when they need it, and most importantly, don’t be an asshat.
I dunno, I don't think gatekeeping is all bad. Being a dick and gatekeeping don't have to go hand in hand. Gatekeeping doesn't bother me much, 'cause if there's a gate for something it's probably there for a reason. Gate locking and being a dick about it, that's different. I've tried to get into large format and darkroom printing myself, and although no one's ever said "no, f off" to my face, I have felt that relative lack of info online compared to 35mm. But still, I don't really expect most people who are on the inside of the gate to let me in for any reason, especially if they're old. They worked really long and hard to learn what they know, get good results, and become respected. Why should they just divulge their knowledge to a lil whippersnapper like me? Am I really owed that just because I have a Speed Graphic and an enlarger? Am I really on the same level as them because I'm also passionate about photography? I don't think so. Cool video though.
Not only online. It's particularly bad when you visit the old camera store. They are full of old men who are very selective about who they will even interact with. As an African American I can almost tell when walking in, they won't be of no help to me. People say you should support your local small business, but if you ask me. It's time for them to die. I for one no longer use their services, I buy online only!
Like you said, keeping it “exclusive” will be the death of everything. I want everyone and their mother to shoot 4x5.
As for film in general, I want every celebrity to shoot it. I want every influencer to shoot it. I want every politician to shoot it. All these videos and posts about them ruining it? Nah.
Definitely leaning towards more personable interactions as well to push along the aspect of community. One zoom talk or in person interaction with real people breaks down the walls that separate us with social media. It makes everyone seem human and less like words on a screen.
Appreciate all you do, Mr. Marrash.
Bryan thank you so much! I totally agree on having more in-person interaction when possible. And there's no such thing as too many film shooters! :D
I did ask my Mum, but she respectfully declined. Well she is 89....
When film almost died a lot of photographers realized that they need to share the knowledge they have and teach or at least support the newer generation or else film was going to actually dissappear. As someone who's into different crafts, hobbies... I can testify that the film community is one of the most welcoming out there. I'm glad that I'm a part of the community and I appreciate all the help and encouragement I've gotten. In Film We Trust
Sorry you had to say this but glad you did. 99% of us here are doing this because it's a hobby. Something we do for fun so we need to be supportive and helpful. I like what you said; "Don't be a dick". That could be the title of the show. As always thank you.
Thanks Michael! This was an episode I've been wanting to do since 2020, and glad it has struck a chord.
Thanks Mat for speaking the truth. Being female and in a crowd of greybeards has not always been a welcoming experience. But my love of photography is far stronger than the occasional visits of: being ignored, doses of chauvinism ( a lot of "thank you gentlemen" ignoring any female participation) and down right rudeness a few gatekeepers continually toss my way. They toss it to others as well, but being female in the LFF community can be a cold place. A few greybeards are great, I am guessing it is because they are secure with themselves, etc. And the younger guys are the best, like you.
I agree totally with everything you just said. My experiences have been very similar ot just in photography but some of my other interests that are typically more male dominated.
Some of the accounts I've heard and seen online with my female photographer friends are appalling. I commend all the women out there for sticking with large format and helping to bring new ideas to the community!
Same experience.
We need more women in LF photography and in general in these male dominated areas. More women=more ideas which is good isn't it?
You'd be welcome here anytime..Myself and a buddy do fun filled workshops to help folk start in large format. I can't understand those folk who know their shit but won't reach out to help a newby....It takes guts and sometimes a lot of anxiety to ask a question as a beginner... We all got to start somewhere and for sure they did. I say if you dont want to reach out to hrlp thats your chioce which I'll respect but please don't spread negativity if you want to exercise that right and remain tight lipped. Fortunately there are plenty of folk who will reach out to help. Matt was spot on with this subject. There is a lot of chauvinism and mysoginistic attitude in society as a whole. Im guessing the various SM groups just reflect this.
A very necessary topic, well stated. If we tear people down when they come into the community then they don't stick around and buy more film, chemicals and cameras and the trickle down effects from that are a very real concern. It takes so little effort to encourage someone who is looking for encouragement or tips and often times you end up learning something yourself in the process.
A rising tide floats all boats in a small harbor.
Gregg that is a fantastic point! There's always something to learn from other folks, even when instructing them on the basics.
You are so on the point. Analogue photography can die very quickly if people insist on gatekeeping on the other hand as the famous quote goes "sharing is caring". The more you share your knowledge with others, the stronger the community will become and ultimately the longer this great art will live happily ever after. I have learnt tons from you and your channel and without that I wouldn't dare even thinking about taking large format photos! So, thank you for being so generous with your knowledge and a force for the growth of the community.
This episode reminded me about something that happened in my "day job" professional career. I used to be a IBM Lotus Notes/Domino administrator for 17 years. One of the issues with that product (one of many) was that the vendor didn't always provide the best resources or documentation on how to use the product or fix broke issues. I started attending the big dollar yearly conference each January and it was there that I met many people, many of which I still consider dear friends. This was about the time in the early 2000's when Twitter and Blogging were just taking off. And that's how we all stayed in touch and shared our on the ground experiences and issues that we saw day in/day out in the workplace. And that mentoring was there. We openly shared and collaborated in the early forms of social media and it was great! I don't know how many times something that someone posted saved my bacon! Yes, there was gatekeeping within that community like others, but there more more honest and open help given when needed. I started blogging as well, sharing my tips and tricks and actually took it as far as presenting at that conference one year. A 90 minute show and tell on how to create a custom installation package of the software and deployment. That was a lot of pressure, but another member of the community with much more speaking experience then I had reached out without me asking and offered his help. I took him up on it and he was my "Vanna White", he ran the slides while I rambled on going over my slides and steps that I spent months preparing. He said he would jot down on a notepad between us any tips along the way, like if I was losing them, etc. About 30 minutes in he wrote "You're doing great!". So because of that mentoring and non-judgemental help, it helped me achieve something professionally. People payed a lot of money to attend this conference and the fact that I was speaking at it was amazing. So yes, when you can, offer that help, openness and love for what you do to others without judgement. It really goes a long way.
Andy thanks for sharing your story, what a fantastic example of peers helping each other develop their skills. It's a win for the student, and in the long run its a win for community!
Thank you for doing this video. This issue overshadowed our photography club for a couple of years. The club has been in existence since the late '90s. I joined it around 2006. If you didn't have a background in journalism, graphic arts, or owned a camera store, you didn't have much to offer. For about the last 14 years, that exclusion view has been purged. We have beginners to professionals who work together and give back to the community we are part of. Keep-on-keeping on is the buzzword.
Very well said. I'm a member of a couple of communities. The analog film photography community where I'm just getting back into something I loved forty years ago. The other is the digital vintage/retro community focused on Apple Macintosh computers. Gatekeeping is a universal challenge everywhere we go. Each of us has the capacity to be an agent for community growth and inclusion. Thank you.
Thanks so much, Mat, for a great talk over a very important topic. I don't know how many times I've seen snarky replies to genuine questions from newbies on camera forums (regardless of format). Largely the film community has been wonderfully friendly and helpful (in my experience) but maybe we need more 'moderators' around to keep it so. You've inspired me to speak up in those forum situations, to do my part to keep the community I love as open and friendly as possible. Peace!
You, the FPP and of course Photostock are the antithesis of gatekeeping! And all three have inspired me to stay positive, always be willing to help and share everything I know! Thank you for all you do!
Pretty much everything about how this channel is run is based off those awesome experiences from FPP and Photostock. Really hoping to start seeing more regional meetups with a similar sharing vibe!
@@MatMarrash Agreed! I run the Toronto photowalks in the same way and spirit of the FPP!
As always your videos are inspiring. When I am in my home area of China I draw a crowd when shooting with my large format camera. People are surprised to see it.
In that regard, a great textbook of mine when I studied Professional Photography at Rochester Institute of Technology was View Camera Technique by Leslie Stroebel. This is THE classic textbook for Large format photography.
Hi Matt, thank you for making this video, I'm constantly berated, for not using certain kit, or" holding the camera the right way" etc. even though I spent years as an assistant and shooting professionally, even on film and large format. its not enough, I even walked away form my channel for a year because i felt like it was just arguing with old men about cameras, which for me has nothing to do with photography, and it didn't honour the memory of the old boys who shared it all with me in the beginning..
Oliver thanks for the comment and I'm glad to see you sticking with it. Really digging the latest Iceland series with the Hasselblad! Knowing what goes into filming all of that while doing a location shoot is tough and you're doing a great job!
I made the mistake of starting my channel by diving back into analogue cameras that I either fondly remember or wish I’d had back in the day.
It definitely seemed to attract that demographic. Although I also came across some genuinely good people too, that negative clutching at knowledge and disparaging the knowledge of others for the sake of feeling superior really does put you off.
@@MatMarrash @chronicallyPhotographic
none of the photographers I assisted or worked with as a kid really cared about the gear they used, they knew how to use them and what was in there kit, but to talk about cameras over pictures was swiftly ignored.
This time I’m doing it mostly for me, I’m a tv cameraman 8/10’days and photographer the other 2 these days, using the old cameras these days is nostalgic and takes me back to basics.
I love that you’ve been able to keep up week in and week out, and I’ll keep watching.
Well said Matt. Why anyone thinks that they can develop their own passion by excluding others is beyond me. Let all boats rise.
I have been incredibly lucky in that the people around me and most of the sources I've looked for help with all my LF/film stuff (this channel included) have been overwhelmingly welcoming and open with their knowledge and time.
I know this is not the case for everyone, especially people who don't match the preconception of the "typical" photographer, and it's sad and frustrating that it's the case. I cannot imagine pouring so much time, energy, and money into something like this and then not wanting to share every part of it you can with anyone who asks.
This is spot on! I have been kicked out of 3 Wet Plate Collodion groups over the past 10 years. This is rampant in photography on social media. Wet Plate is very specialized and there was a very small group of "experts" that would invalidate so many new comers to the process. I have and will continue to push back against such gatekeepers, I just simply knock the keys to the gate out of their hands.
For real, like look I don’t have the time to mix my own chems the Bostick kit works just fine for me
Well said, Mat. Much of what I know about LF I acquired by asking stupid questions to which old hands (some very old) generously and wisely replied. Gatekeepers are simply selfish, but they do harm by encouraging others to believe they should be gatekeepers, too. Beginners who blunder and make mistakes (as I did and still do) should be gently (and without condescension) told what the best practices are. There is a wealth of experience to draw on, and it's a wealth to be shared.
Matt, sorry you had to make this video, but I’m glad that you had the commitment to do so. I always look forward to your videos, that really expose (haha) everything in large format photography… good, bad, and the, ugly. Don’t let the haters tear ya down.
You got yourself a sub. Well said.
I’ve seen it and tried to fight it for decades now. I even experienced it as a photography assistant after finishing my photography degree, where my then boss wouldn’t ever take the time to give me advice and would actively try and knock my confidence because, in his words, he didn’t “want to create a competitor down the line”. He went out of business not long after I left because IMO it’s an entirely counterproductive mindset.
I’ve just taken possession of my first 5x4 camera in over twenty years and I hope to pick the brains of the community and be of help in return when I can.
You’re right btw, it’s in all walks of life. I’m a gamer too and have seen it get worse there as more and more people get into the hobby. I’m just happy that more and more people understand it, enjoy it and continue to make it a viable endeavour for the people who make them.
The same applies in photography. More people taking up large format or analogue or using digital cameras to make work that interests and drives them; those people aren’t a threat to the hobby. They’re the future lifeblood. The threat is people who won’t let it grow.
I just got into 4x5 (Chamonix 45F2) And just LOVE IT, I love it sooooo much that i decided to learn how to develop 4x5 myself (Stearman SP-445 SYSTEM), I have to agree with you, we MUST get others involved in this format to save it from disappearing, EXCLUSIVITY turns many people away and never look at it again!
Great point. I've noticed that these group and forum members who snub newbies are the ones who publish photos the least, their subject comes down to technical matters and equipment testing
That has been a lot of my own experience with online spaces, especially forums. I think the more time we take to understand each others specialties, the more we can help each other. There is as much need for the technical as there is for the artistic side of things, so long as we create a space where they are equal.
Great video Matt, gatekeeping is as ridiculous as it sounds. I enjoy photography in several formats and long may it continue. I am yet to try large format, but it is on my bucket list and I will give it a go someday as it intrigues me. Whatever format you enjoy, keep enjoying it and making both wonderful memories and prints. Let the gatekeepers chew their own elbows off in their toxic forums and social media platforms, they will never change.
Gatekeeping exists for the purpose to overcome it! :-)
Mat it was great to meet at Photostock and thank for modeling for the 20x24 portraits. Richard Ritter does such great work. I will send prints.
Francis you're the man and you absolutely nailed those portraits!! :D
Matt, Good stuff! You have been one of the best in the online photo community with respect to "gate keeping". We need more folks shooting film, all film, if we want access to our materials. That's being selfish! I love helping folks and have given away four enlargers and at least a dozen cameras to folks who were interested. These weren't cheap cameras or cheap darkroom pieces; but these were people genuinely interested. It made me feel better to give away equipment I was no longer using to those that had an interest.
The elitist attitude has always existed in photography. I went to RIT in the early nineties. Richard Zakia and Leslie Stroebel were my teachers! Film photography was the ONLY photography. Now that so much of this information is "arcane" I see misinformation and elitism growing. I have left many online groups because people are just being dicks. Anyone born after 1990 is most likely to know nothing about analog photography. Why would you be a jerk to them? Ignorance is not stupidity. Anyone who wants to try film should receive support from those of us who have been doing it.
And know, you have gotten me back into shooting large format. My darkroom allows me to shoot process and enlarge all the way up to 8x10. I hadn't shot 8x10 in decades. We need more folks like you out there sharing. Oh, and BTW, in the nineties everyone treated platinum like a dark art...watching you coat and print (and create a low cost UV unit) made me realize it's not scary. My goal next year is platinum printing. My ultimate goal is carbon transfer and a try at photogravure. I will not be going to ULF! You're a brave soul! Keep up the good work!
Thank you so much and wow, having Leslie Stroebel as a teacher!! I can definitely see where a lot of older and alt. processes might have been treated like a dark art prior to the 2000s. Even when I was starting in film, there wasn't a lot of information outside of a blog or forum posts. Access to video and streaming has opened up the flood gates in terms of sharing information. Nothing to be scared of with Pt/Pd besides the cost of the metals. Once dialed-in, it's also a very consistent hand-coated process. Oh and stay tuned if you're looking into carbon and photogravure!
Great point! Thanks for sharing your thoughts Mat!
I 100% agree!!! For the most part, I feel that any knowledge I have is freely shared ... why keep your skills secret when you can help another person!!! There is no stupid questions, we should help others if we have the ability!!!
Thank you for this video. I myself have experienced some form of gatekeeping when I started out in photography around the early 2000. DSLR was starting to gain popularity. I could not afford one as I was still studying so I still used a film SLR. There was an online photography forum in Singapore which I joined. The people inside were mostly nice people. But there were a few who felt they were more arty farty than the rest, especially people like me who just started. I was laughed, mocked repeated times behind my back. I learn to keep my distance away from them.
Do not do onto others what you do not want others to do to you. I always remind myself of this and tell myself not to be like them.
Keep up the good work, Matt. I do not shoot large format myself but maybe one day I will make the leap. :)
Jacky thanks for sharing your experience with gatekeeping and I'm glad that you stuck with photography! And when you make that LF leap, always feel free to ask those questions here!
Well said Matt!
I don't see this exclusivity much on the various photo forums I follow, but, when I do, I simply don't engage. And my mantra always is: There are no stupid questions.
Your video was very thought provoking. There are several online forums that I stopped using because of this problem. If it isn't gatekeeping there are those who see themselves as the "middle managers" of the hobby. It gets old quickly. Photography is a passion for me and I want others to enjoy it as much as I do. I am fascinated by the many different ways to express yourself with this hobby. I just subsrcribed to your channel as I am enjoying the content My initial foray into photography was b&w film/darkroom in the early 90s. Don't know if I will ever get into LF, but I enjoy seeing the work produced with LF
the only negative thing in photography should only be that thing you put into your camera (regardless which size) to capute the photons. Okay , that's a dad joke, maybe it's because we are both watching this video
You are absolutely correct, couldn’t have said it better myself. I’m so lucky as to have friends who would share and encourage me with all their knowledge so I’m turn I’m doing my best to pass that on to anyone I can help.
Super!
Nice video.Never heard the term used but I get it. For some reason I doubt that I have experienced it in any way since I normally work in a digital world, which has a common language and technique. Much different from the esoteric world of Large Format. I like the idea of paying forward. Something many of us try and do in our local camera clubs.
NEVER HEARD OF YOU...PRIOR TO A MEMBER POSTED THIS VIDEO ON A FORUM...AND I'M GLAD THAT PERSON DID! GREAT VIDEO ON A TOPIC THAT IS VERY REAL IN SOCIETY!!! SUBBED AND GOING TO LOOK DEEPER INTO YOUR WORKS AND LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING MORE FROM YOU! KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK!!!🤘🏾🤘🏾👊🏾
- THE BLACKMAN ARMED WITH A CAMERA
Welcome to the channel and loving your enthusiasm! :)
Perfect video for a perfect time to for people to hear it. Thanks Mat for making great content and being so open to sharing it.
Thank you Kade! It's good to share this kind of stuff every once in a while and it's always a good reminder to be kind to each other. :)
Yes, this! I live in a rural area where there definitely aren't many film photographers. Every time I meet someone who seems interested in film photography (35mm, since that's all I shoot), I offer to lend them a camera and a roll of film, and always offer to help them develop their first roll. and I'm open to letting people borrow some of my developing equipment (tank and changing bag, etc.) on occasion. It's so fun to try and bring more people into the fold of photography.
Bravo!
Thanks you for all the helpful advice that you give us. I’ve been doing film photography for over a decade, and I still feel so new to it. I find myself asking questions all the time and continuing to learn from others has been a great benefit in my journey of this wonderful art. This Might sound like a cliché, but long live film!!
Well said and much needed.
The true joy in anything is in the sharing. Sharing knowledge and encouragements is probably the best reward there is. It's free and brings so much happiness to others. And what's free and makes others happy has no reason not to make you a happier person!
I just started doing my own C-41 processing and if it wasn't for others sharing their information, I wouldn't have ever started. While I did mess-up a bit my first roll, it's OK as I think everybody does that when they start 😊
100% great topic and insight..!!
Well said. That's the reason I founded The Appalachian Center for Photography!
That's a fantastic way to give back to the community! :)
Thanks to you fot your work on this channel, I am beginning to appreciate large format more. Love your passion and enthusiasm.
Thank you so much! :)
I really wish I'd been able to make it to Photostock this year. And I saw Eva and Jeff in your footage! Glad you had fun!
Bethe we missed you this year! Stay in touch and hopefully there will be other opportunities to meet-up and chat alt process!
Great topic. I got a chuckle out of the simplified version :) Gatekeeping has been going on for as long as I can remember. I got lucky and found the Texas Photography Forum, aka TPF, (sadly now defunct) very early in my "digital phase". The forum had a small mix of studio pros, wedding pros, wildlife pros, sports pros, combined with people like me that had been shooting with no direction since I was 6, people that that thought they were pros, people that wanted to be a pro, etc. Ie... a bunch of photographers that enjoyed one anothers interactions. We had meetups, workshops, etc. Most were free. Some of us gravitated to one another and we'd plan small group shoots (and invite whoever wanted to come). When I got into TPF I had been shooting 35mm film for decades, quite poorly I might add, lol. A motorcycle wreck convinced me to take on a safer hobby :) and I converted the insurance check for my VTX1800R into a EOS 1D and a couple of lenses. I already had a pretty decent selection that went with my 1N so I was set. So I thought. I quickly learned what I didn't know and knuckled down to the task of learning. The people of TPF made a huge difference.
That forum and the workshops that I've done since were the best thing I could have done for my photography. Imagine sitting next to a professional wildlife photographer and getting 1:1 training with nothing spent but the travel expenses. I've only been to one LF workshop and that was in Death Valley. I didn't take away any great masterpieces but I learned a lot from Michael Gordon. I wish he was still doing LF workshops. That man knows Death Valley better than anyone I've ever met.
Anyway... blathering on forever again, you are spot on. But I know for a fact a small community can influence the larger community... I've seen it.
Michael TPF sounds like it was a fantastically run club, and something for all photography groups to aspire to! And thanks for mentioning the work of Michael Gordon, wow! His B&W work, especially "The Desert Speaks" is spectacular.
@@MatMarrash Michael is an outstanding photographer and his love for and knowledge of the desert knows no bounds. We spent a week traveling through DV. It was one of the most exhausting, exhilarating, and enjoyable trips of my life. By then he had moved to digital so I shed my 4x5 and pared the equipment down to maximize the time I had. His watermark came from the Racetrack btw. The best way I know for someone to experience Death Valley is hire him to show you around and tell him to go where he wants to go :)
Your video is an example of the kind of leadership that is in-service rather than self-serving. Inclusive snobbery is the thing that divides communities, that prevents us all, in the simplest way possible, from getting along. I discovered your channel recently after I bought a Wista 45. I love the process and the unique look of 4x5 after only 10 shots as of writing this comment! I suspect I will binge all your LFF seasons in the next week while I'm on vacay. Thanks for the work , expertise and integrity you put into your episodes!
David thanks so much for the comment and glad you found the channel! I'll admit that there is a selfish angle to growing the large format community, it increases our odds of having access to the tools and film for years to come. ;)
Being a bit older I have experienced this many time, I shoot traditional muzzleloaders, I prefer a canoes over speed boats, cross country skies over snow mobiles and of course diddling with a 1909 view camera. When folk criticize this, tell them I certainly enjoyed doing what you do, but I found doing what I do to be more fun. When I read criticism of someone's photo, I point out that art is opinion, and the artist's opinion is all that matters.
Inspiring
I was out of town when this posted, and I'm so glad this finally popped up again so I didn't miss it. So necessary for this community to face it, and for it to be addressed.
Well said, I could not agree more with you. Growing forward as a community.
Thanks Mat for sharing and discussing this important topic. If we want the hobby to be around, we need to encourage new hobbyist. It’s all learning process and us experienced photographers should be happy to help the new photographers. I also see alot of ageism in the community. We all can learn from one another regardless of age. If Ansel Adams were alive today, he would be 120 years old, and even at 120 I would be down to learn from a master photographer.
In a creative, visual medium like photography age is just a number. I'll gladly learn from someone younger or far older than myself. Some of the best photographers I know are retirees that are using that extra time they have to make more expressive work.
I am so dumb I wouldn’t even know if I was being gate kept! I am new to LF and totally green and love your content. Great job.
James I totally get how you're feeling. There are few areas of photography that I've recently started tinkering where it feels like I know nothing. But being brand new at something again is a great way to develop new skills and habits that benefit the rest of your interests. Cheers!
@@MatMarrash I am totally enjoying the dive in. Your guidance has been great. Got my first pics back and can’t believe I actually made a photo!
Very important topic and well put, but hold up: COLOR WETPLATE?! p.s. photo stock is now a goal to travel to next year!
Photostock is great for inspiration and I highly recommend it! The way the RA-4 paper reverses from B&W negative to color positive makes it "feel" like a a wet plate, and with the super lower ISO, typically 1-3 it handles similarly in exposure.
If it wasn't for your channel and others who shared what they knew with me I wouldn't have even attempted getting into large format...let alone build my first 4x5 camera. Thank you for everything you do making this more accessible.
Thanks Dani! By the way it was great meeting you, thanks for the print, and keep me up to date on all those crazy DIY cameras! :)
@@MatMarrash I will. I'm already working on some "upgrades" and trying to figure out something bigger.
true
Great take! I just don't share my work online with strangers. I guess I'm too thin-skinned, but it just takes one jerk to ruin the experience for me.
Gatekeeping exists in all hobbies. I'm always surprised at this, especially in hobbies that are "dying" because new people aren't coming into them, in part because of the gatekeepers! Amateur radio and model railroading are hobbies I enjoy that fall squarely into this category. It's mostly reasonable folks, but there are enough people feeling that the hobby "belongs" to them exclusively to turn "outsiders" off. These hobbies have enough challenges keeping alive these days without gatekeepers discouraging newcomers!
Great thoughts. Have only come across your channel in the last week and been enjoying it. I too have participated in some gatekeeping in the past in my other hobby which is sports cards and collectibles. It can get ridiculous and toxic. Anyway, I'm hoping to build a 4x5 pinhole camera this fall. I discovered a new DIY woodworking shop in my small town in Korea. I figure it will be a fun process and a way to enjoy large format.
Thanks for this video, Mat. It’s definitely a problem and it’s good to see it get called out.
Hobby v Commercial.
I grew up and was educated in analogue.
I loved it because you had to understand the science, and, be creative - this was an opportunity.
Digital means, 'just being creative', as the science has been relinquished - not a bad thing, just an observation.
Every time you press the shutter button with analogue, it costs you money.
So, I think some people tend to be a little more possessive since they have invested time and money to develop something new or a new style.
Not so much with digital (apart from common filters and their application), however, it does give rise to a new culture of image making.
Heck, we don't even need actors anymore for the screen - just have to look at Love, Death and Robots.
I agree with what Mat says, up to the point, until it may impact on trade/commercial/IP secrets.
However, analogue, being such a mature craft, I can't see much of the above being threatened.
I just learned split grade printing - that was probably a trade secret for someone at some stage.
Kudos on letting the world know.
I think most people enjoy providing solutions to the masses - egotistically, it makes you feel good to contribute.
Many years ago, I was very secretive about my 'bullet time' work.
Being only 1 of 4 in the world who could reliably provide it, meant there was a commercial advantage to keep those secrets.
My early breakthroughs have now become Avant Guard, but it did take 10-15 years for these solutions to be common practice.
Older and wiser now.
I have little problem providing solutions that benefit everyone.
Even with my 'state of the art'170 dslr array in a truck for photogrammetry, I have publicised a trade secret with cross polarisation.
No doubt, people will copy it, however, the industry (high end feature film) enjoys working with ground breakers.
In a very small way, I am a hero.
You can really only let people know of your R&D breakthroughs by advertising it with a discussion.
The people who employ you appreciate the competitive edge you have, right now, rather than waiting for someone else to develop it.
Unreal (no connection), an example of a large corporate, have released tools that benefit the greater good, for free - it is the future.
Film continues to be used in the higher end feature film industry.
High end cinematographers have no barriers when it comes to discussing their craft (although, there are few who have an opportunity to exploit this).
I have worked on Elvis, Mortal Kombat, La Brea, FOE and others, and happy to share much of what I do (up to a point:)).
You are recognised as a serious player if you contribute.
As a hobby, it feels warm to share, however, commercially it is still sensitive.
At age 63, I can't imagine why people try to be gate keepers with a hobby, they really have nothing to gain in the long term.
If you have something new, that is a benefit, you will be seen as a hero.
Thank you Mat for an excellent presentation. Appreciate your time, commitment and dedication. One of your best videos. Inspiring, motivating, encouraging and timely. Keep up the excellent work.
Wise words Mat, thank you.
Thanks Matt. You are super welcoming and a great resource for those of us dabbling in large format. Luckily I haven't observed much unpleasant behavior, one or two examples but certainly in the minority. Quick question: Steve O'Nions just put up a video where he used a laser pointer pointing at his subject (a tree) as a focusing aide with a very slow lens, as something visible on the ground glass, just curious if you have tried this. A bit dangerous to use with portraits but for landscapes seems useful, just not to be pointed up in the sky as they are also dangerous to airplane pilots if the light is strong enough. Currently playing with black and white reversal, I never heard of RA-4 reversal but will look into it!
Great statement, Mat. Thank you
I appreciate this message, especially as someone who has shot large format for many years. It's important to share your knowledge. However, I'm not giving up locations I spent hours, days, weeks, or months trying to find... If you have to ask for locations or spots, usually you're not dedicated enough to search yourself.
I've been in some niche hobbies that seemed like they were fading away -- tabletop roleplay gaming looks like it was circling the drain until D&D 5th Edition came out; model rocketry (for adults) was thinning out pretty rapidly when I left that because of costs; even traditional radio control model flying isn't as big as it was in the '80s. And all of those suffer from some level or kind of gatekeeping.
And then there's film photography, and more so large format.
My take on it has always been "If you want to try it, try it. It's not that difficult, doesn't have to be prohibitively expensive, and it's a lot of fun!" I've helped people identify ways to get the most bang for their buck, including by using cameras that are most of a century old, developing their own film, and so forth. None of this stuff is *hard* -- I developed film without adult supervision at age 10, and a library is still a good source for the information you need to learn exposure and processing controls. IMO, the *hardest* thing about large format is cost -- it's hard to make film less expensive, though you don't have to buy Kodak or Ilford (Fomapan or Shanghai is about half the price per sheet). You can develop in very little space with Df96 monobath; there's not much in the way of Zone controls, but it gets the images, and you can get decent digitization of negatives with that phone you pulled out. A working 4x5 camera can still be had for under $200 including lens in shutter -- but used film holders aren't as easy to find or as cheap as they used to be.
In the end, the real barrier to entry is knowing large format is the way to the kind of photography you're interested in (whether that's Zone System, movements, or just images big enough to see well in a contact print) -- and you keep spreading the word on that. As do I (though I'm not as audible as you).
You're 100% on access being the biggest barrier to entry in niche hobbies that are growing more expensive. One of the big goals of this channel is to provide a bit more context to what it means to get into large format. Thanks for being an ambassador for LF and film photography!
What a great video and so necessary. I've been enjoying your channel for a while, but this is the one that convinced me to to become a member. Thanks Mat.
Aki thank you so much for continuing to check out the channel and welcome as a new LFF Sustaining Member! :D
I think one of the most important things is being humble and kind to others. Everyone has something we can learn from them and people who are new ask the questions we've forgotten about but should really be thinking about
Funny thing is the other day I was messing around with my miniature format view camera and shooting digitally. It took me until I took the whole rig down and looked closely at my photos to realize that I had hit some significant diffraction. I had stopped down the lens to f22, but because of the magnification I was at (4:1) my effective aperture was much higher (f107??). Why I had it set up this way I had no idea because I could have had the lens almost wide open and used some tilt to get what I wanted. The photos looked like they were from a pinhole and the rainbow patterning off the matte metal was quite interesting. Next time I know what to do, but wow that effect was interesting. I wonder what I could do with it
As much as I love my large format view camera I do have a lot of fun shooting miniature format full frame digital. I also very much adore my micro 4/3s setup. When you go into the micro 4/3s world and read all the comments on videos, you see all these negative comments, many of them are from people I'm familiar with who shoot miniature format full frame and don't shoot micro 4/3s. Something about the format being dead, stepping up to a "real full frame" this that and the other thing. It's such a pity to see these people who are regulars on the videos I watch go to negative town on a different format they don't care for. Some of my lightest and heaviest lenses are for my micro 4/3 system, but most importantly I love the pictures I can create with those lenses
Similarly, sometimes people give me flack for using digital (what do you mean you shoot a view camera digitally? Such sacrilege). I use both digital and film, and I can get results I need and want. I have bellows and bellows lenses for the miniature format image circle. It's fun that way
I think photography is powerful because it's another way people can express themselves. Sometimes we can communicate and say things in photos that we don't have the words for yet. This is why I make photos and I love looking at the photos others make. From a cell phone to a large monorail, I don't care. If you make images I'll love to look at them
You hit the nail on the head about the power of photography! It's truly a universal language that we can use to express so many things. And even though I'd like to always be shooting LF, there are so many times where another format makes a whole lot more sense. Heck, all the content on this channel is shot with a crop-frame mirrorless camera, and to get better at digital informs all my other photographic work.
@@MatMarrash I do also usually take the things I learn on digital back to film. Film is really quite expensive these days, and I feel that it's hard to feel free to test things out. On digital I can experiment with it to make sure what I'm doing works before I try it on film. I use a lot of historical tricks on digital including ways to make ghost and spirits and special effects. I do my own developing, but wow each box of sheets of 4x5 costs as much as a new Sandisk Extreme Pro 256GB UHS-I memory card. I got my first Nikon digital body after I paid a $750 bill to get my films (a combo of miniature format 35 mm and medium format 120 rolls) developed and scanned. I got a Nikon digital body because I have a Nikon F2 and they could share lenses. I get a lot of joy out of my digital Nikon. I use the same lenses and I get largely similar results, but now I can stretch out and try crazy things and it's ok if it doesn't work out. With each exposure I learn something new, take notes, and try again
I feel like we have made full circle in photography. Mirrorless is basically the exact same technology as many of our large format cameras. You're focusing and composing directly on the film plane. Now with the Nikon Z9, we're going back to the times were there's no built in mechanical shutter. My great grandma used her lens cap as a shutter. Her 8x10 and 4x5 view cameras had no built in mechanical shutters
With crop sensor lol I have my view camera. I also have plenty of roll film backs (another way to cut costs on sheet film). This is one of the ways we did "crop sensor." There is no shame in being crop sensored. Yes sure my lens covers 4x5 or 5x7 but I'm using a little 67 roll film back for 120. It's just like micro 4/3 vs full frame miniature format!
We are a lot more the same than we are different, even in the technology we use
Fully agree - I see this a LOT coming into photography. I’m sure it’s just as bad in other spaces too though! I hate gatekeeping 😡
Yes, unfortunately very common in many hobbies. That's one of the reasons most of my hobbies are things I can do by myself, I just can't stand the social hierarchies, power struggle and ego tripping in most clubs. I also have dropped a couple of more social hobbies because I felt I was not welcome, the clubs have a hierarchy where the older members seem to think any newcomer, especially if they are knowledgeable on the subject or have other skills that can be adapted, are a threat to their superiority and position in the hierarchy, so they try to "put them in their place" by belittling them and keeping them out of the "inner circle" and doing so they drive away the very people who might actually have something valuable to give to the community.
Also, as I have multiple hobbies and I'm not rich, I have noticed there are a lot of "wealthy snobs" in many communities. They are the people who think a person's value is determined by the amount of money they have to use on a hobby and despise anyone who's interested in more low budget alternatives. In my experience this is not so common in film photography but for example music world is full of people who think you have no right to play, say, the cello or violin, if you can't afford to spend thousands and thousands on instruments and lessons and the services of an expert repairer every time your instrument requires something more than a tuning. Fortunately in the film community most people accept you even if you shoot with old Soviet cameras or even a DIY pinhole camera.
One group of "gatekeepers" are of course the fanatics. They take themselves and the hobby dead serious, it's the most important thing in their lives, they eat, drink and breathe their chosen hobby and spend all their spare time and money on it. Of course this kind of dedication is admirable but it often causes them to look down and despise those who reduce their all consuming passion into a "mere hobby" and do it for fun, maybe even have other hobbies or important things in their life. I tend to run into these a lot as, as said, I have multiple hobbies and I tend to sometimes concentrate on something and sometimes on something else.
Completely hear you on this and yeah, I agree that gatekeeping really has become a big problem in all forms of photography, and especially in film. I've seen it far too many times that someone will ask about something in a forum or comments section and just get put down by some old hand who thinks they know everything and clearly hates the idea of anyone who isn't exactly like them taking part in the community. Literally two days ago I read an old forum post asking about using barrel process lenses as shooting lenses (I was looking at the same lenses as they're *really cheap*!) and the top comment was basically just telling them they were an idiot for even trying and should just get a "real" lens. There's just no excuse for it, and we all need to call it out when we see it. You're a "real" photographer if you create photographic images. That's it. You can be doing it with a Deardorff, a paint can with a hole in it, or anything in between. I will admit I've also been guilty of some gatekeeping in the past, not just in photography but in all my interests, but this video has made me feel more inspired than ever to share, be open, and to call out bad behaviour when I see it. If we can all do that, then we'll all have a community we can be proud of that'll be around much longer than any of us.
You remind me because one time I saw this really cool barrel lens. I never got it, but in my family my great grandmother used a barrel lens to start off her photography business. She shot 8x10 and 4x5 and used the lens cap as her shutter
@@Bunnyisms I guess for a while that was the only type of lens there was, and even after they invented shutters not everyone would've had access to them. Shame you passed on the one you'd seen before, but like I said, it seems like there are a lot of really inexpensive ones on Ebay if you fancied trying them out and maybe emulating what your great grandmother would've experienced shooting with them. I have to say I'd love to see some of the images she created back in her day too, especially as I'd wager she probably experienced more than her fair share of gatekeeping as a woman in a photography world that I imagine was even more male-dominated than it is today!
@@yetanotherbassdude She was primarily into portraits and I have a few of hers. She also cut up rolls of aero film for her cameras. She'd get them in drums at the PX store. I didn't get the lens because I already have a lot of lenses and didn't have space for it. I tell people that now we're so high tech and my lenses have shutters in them! She died when I was really little and I remember peering up over the window at her lying there. She was a powerful matriarch in my family and ran everything. Her husband ran their house and did the cleaning. She ran the business. She knew her power and her worth and didn't let anything stop her. She was tough!
I think we have made a full circle with things because mirrorless works exactly like large format did in the past. You are focusing on the film plane directly. Also now with the Nikon Z9 we're going back to not having a mechanical shutter like we did with the barrel lenses
Great video Mat. Curious about where you got that shirt
I can see group photo walks falling into the territory of gatekeeping easily. Which is weird to me because for a hobby that is heavily centered around social media and content creation, you would think people are more open to networking, or scratch each other’s backs. But instead, get looked down upon like you’re inferior. In my city we use to have a photography page that did group walks regularly, but after a certain period, it died down and never happened.
There was a brief period in between the rise of DSLR's and the peak of Instagram where it seemed like there were photowalks happening all the time. Here in Columbus, OH, this type of meetup has been a rarity. I definitely thing that the "competition" aspect of everyone comparing cameras quickly turned off new photographers to the hobby. The film meetups, though few and far between, have always been pretty inviting...but typically because the community is so much smaller.
I face gatekeepers every time that I ask technical question online, specially in Facebook groups. Is a particular way of gatekeeping, is the shape of patronising speech and misleading answers (via responding things much more basics that the question to be addressed). Is so infuriating!
It's fear of being ousted out of the throne. Gatekeepers are comfortable and don't want to be challenged, or that someone will take the hobby in a different direction that will make them not "kings" anymore.
Anyway these people will be make redundant anyway, and aren't imortal.
Hey just have fun and experiment, learn new techniques, ideas and have fun doing new things.
If someone wants to keep doing what they've always done, fine, just don't try to stop others from doing different.
Great video Mat
It really does boil down to a progressive approach versus a static one. And I really like that you added that final point, it's okay to do things they way you do them but not at the cost of others' progress. Cheers!
I have a motto: Photography (the kind I/we do) is a "cultural activity". If you over think *any* cultural activity it appears pointless but cultural activities are the only things that makes like worth living. They are done for their own sake not for a result. Most of the negativity (gate keeping) you get from people is because they are suffering. They have committed to something and they haven't embraced the fact that it is simultaneously pointless and worthwhile. They are trying to find an intellectual justification for doing something that is only worth doing because it is fun. So compassion for the trolls, they are in pain and perhaps wrestling with a little depressive rumination about the point of life.
Thanks Roger and I like the idea of photography as a cultural activity! It allows the breathing room to be creative and not trying to compete or win.
Let's face it, the more people that shoot LF and more generally analog, there will become better choices in film stocks and chemicals and who knows, prices may go down ;)
Amen Richard! Now for that film stock price to go down...
Time to break down those walks. There is SO much snobbery in LF. So what if you have a cheap camera, can only afford Fomapan (great film btw) and you have a 'consumer grade' scanner. It's all good.
Gatekeeping is analogous to exclusivity which is synonymous with elitism = GET OVER YOUR F'N SELF! Nice job, Mat
The only thing I'll ever gate keep about film photography is when people simply digitize all of their images. Many people talk about enjoying the "mechanical" blah blah, but the only contact they have with film is puitting it into their camera, then sending it to a lab.
Its just digital photography but with extra steps.
The important thing to note is we're all free to our opinions and way of doing things. So long as your definition of being a film photographer isn't dissuading or stunting the growth of others, it's all good. Besides, you can help recruit folks to your way of thinking by showing them the differences between scans versus prints or helping them make prints in the darkroom.
@@MatMarrash It's more like a jab..Rather than a barrage. I always end my mocking statements in "if you love analog process, then here's an awesome darkroom set up I found for you for less than $300!" :p
I always tell people that the only "Silly" or "stupid" question is one you don't ask. I also think some of the problem is people who are seeing the prices of gear rise due to increased demand - people just being greedy and sour.
RA-4 reversal process? That sounds interesting! Sounds as if I missed something. Hmm, maybe I should actually consider to get into 8x10 pinhole with that … but it might be much harder than the "traditional" film negative way (reciprocity failure - is it as severe with RA-4 paper as it is with film?).
The gatekeeping and attitudes are so bad from a small minority of the community that I don’t frequent any photography forums or groups anymore. Some of the responses I’ve seen to totally reasonable questions have been pretty shocking. It’s not just film photography either, I see this in the digital community too.
Scott I've felt the same way about interacting on groups and forums. The last few years I've been more "lurker" status because of some of the back and forth. There are a few, well moderated exceptions out there, but gatekeeping is still present.
Film was dying when I started it seriously c. 1993. The alt.photo group was my main source of education, where information was shared across generations and nations. Everyone was generous with experience and copious notes. The late Judy Siegal was the Den Mother for Post-Factory photography. She was funny, had deep technical knowledge of gum and cyanotype paper choice and technique and published a magazine. The only gatekeeping I found was in the dealer's community. I then had a full plate wood camera, and was looking for film holders. I was told "You are crazy for thinking this format can be shot, as it is irrelevant now." I sold the camera, to my regret. Another gatekeeping is by the local photo association, who have said film doesn't exist, and won't accept anything other than a jpeg file for critique. The Maker Space in town won't even consider a darkroom space because "The chemistry is too toxic and it can't be disposed of safely." Not true-I talked to the County disposal and read the laws.
As an offering in opposition to gatekeeping, would anyone be interested in a two bath alkaline fixer recipe-from 1904? Yep, 1904.
To CinnamonGirl and the other women following this LF channel: Thanks to you, as well, for speaking up. There's no good excuse for the chauvinist or cold-shoulder behavior you experience; it's just one more reflection of Matt's subject here, but doubly so. Continue to be strong, inspired, kind, respectful, and eager to learn -- as we all should be. Know that your example may shame a few more into becoming their better selves and living a happier life as a result.
Photography in general has gotten very cutthroat because so many people moved into the business and "wrongfully" displaced some people who have been in it for a while. I definitely have experienced gatekeeping in large format. I have this double pump Wollensak I'm trying to get running and have received far more sarcasm on forums than help
I’ve never really gotten involved with any of the online photography communities but it doesn’t surprise me that there’s a lot of gatekeeping within them. The group think is what really drives me nuts. Its like they’re worried that if they don’t repeat what everyone else is saying, there not going to be taken seriously. It’s pretty lame. If someone told me I wasn’t a “real” LF photographer because of my camera choice, I’d just laugh.
Wow - what an awful experience some folks seem to have, Any such nonsense within the LFPP will be quickly stamped on.
The worst part in seeing and hearing these accounts is for how many we learn about, how many more stopped pursuing photography all together? Glad to hear LFPP's stance is one that encourages growth!
Это вы ещё Алегаса не видели 😂
A thing I think also needs to be addressed is not just the gatekeeping but the elitism as well. The fact that LF photogs use a slower more methodical process seems to be an unfortunate breeding ground for elitism. It's a thing that really negatively impacted my enjoyment of LF when I first started out trying it.
Thanks for sharing your experience and I wish I could say that this was something uncommon. Wouldn't it be amazing if we could all admit that we enjoy this rather silly way of taking a freakin' picture?! Sharing in this process [gasp] could even further our own enjoyment!
I agree with most of what you said but I don't think paywalling should be grouped in with gatekeeping. If you are a professional educator or journalist and you are providing quality content as a job or as a business you should be able to charge people for your services without being accused of gatekeeping. I do wonder if you do agree with my stance ob this because after your initial mentioning of paywalling it didn't come up again. ;) Keep up the great work!
Hey Andreas you make a great point about services provided, and yes I didn't expand much on it further because the waters get muddy. I draw the line at paywalling where greed supersedes the work. Having gone through the professional journal publication process during my undergrad, it was disappointing to see hard work sitting behind a large one time fee that paid NOTHING to the individuals nor institution responsible for that research. Journalism is tough work, and I have a lot of friends working their butts off in that field and would never decry their efforts as paywalling. Now take for example this channel; I couldn't in good conscience charge for access to these videos because much of what I learned came from other kind individuals offering their time. Now should someone want to get a hands-on lesson which takes time and resources, yeah, there's going to be some money changing hands.
@@MatMarrash Well, in my eyes the question is what you are providing yourself and how much you are asking. Let's say you've spent months learning the basics of large format photography and most of your knowledge comes from other people: One person taught you about how to calculate lenses, another person taught you about holders and role backs, a third person taught you about reciprocity and factoring in the bellows... all of this information was provided to you for free but it took you weeks. If you go ahead, take that information, edit it down to a tutorial in form of a handbook or a two hour video I don't see any problem with charging people for it. The service you provide is the collecting and editing. But I also noticed that pricing got out of hand. Back in the day people wrote books. These books had to be researched, edited, illustrated printed and physically distributed. That took a lot of time, money, materials and work by professionals. But a really good, well made book would cost like 50 to 100 USD. Today some more or less qualified, self-educated hobbyist creates a four hour video workshop, sells it as a download on his homepage but asks like 500 USD for it. That seems out of touch and has the taste of profiteering...
What is this photo stick you speak of? Where is it held?
The two things that really get me going anymore are these two things. The first are those people that ask a question, sometimes very basic questions, that are answered by " READ THE MANUAL". Not everyone has the manual especially with older cameras and the newest cameras have manuals that run into the 100's of pages and so many menus and sub-menus. Most of the manuals are now PDF's on line and they can be difficult to navigate. The other one is the WHAT SETTINGS DID YOU USE. Yes for digital they are in the files somewhere for the image but my stock answer anymore I used the settings that I thought were the right ones for the image I envisioned .
To keep it you have to give it away-Alcoholics Anonymous
We really need to remember, and be okay with, the fact that there are people that think and feel differently from ourselves. It’s easy to feel that someone is “degrading” a passion you love, but in reality it’s just different, and that’s a good thing.
Gotta remember, even Ansel Adam’s believed that allowing the masses to participate in photography, it would degrade the art form into nothingness. He was wrong.
Participate in this space for yourself, guide others when they need it, and most importantly, don’t be an asshat.
Owen you summed it up perfectly! :D
I dunno, I don't think gatekeeping is all bad.
Being a dick and gatekeeping don't have to go hand in hand. Gatekeeping doesn't bother me much, 'cause if there's a gate for something it's probably there for a reason. Gate locking and being a dick about it, that's different. I've tried to get into large format and darkroom printing myself, and although no one's ever said "no, f off" to my face, I have felt that relative lack of info online compared to 35mm. But still, I don't really expect most people who are on the inside of the gate to let me in for any reason, especially if they're old. They worked really long and hard to learn what they know, get good results, and become respected. Why should they just divulge their knowledge to a lil whippersnapper like me? Am I really owed that just because I have a Speed Graphic and an enlarger? Am I really on the same level as them because I'm also passionate about photography? I don't think so. Cool video though.
Not only online. It's particularly bad when you visit the old camera store. They are full of old men who are very selective about who they will even interact with. As an African American I can almost tell when walking in, they won't be of no help to me. People say you should support your local small business, but if you ask me. It's time for them to die. I for one no longer use their services, I buy online only!
lol, words to live by "Don't be a dick"
Life's too short, we might as well get along with other folks that choose the same weird pursuits as we do!