The Norse CEO was very refreshing in his honesty and realism. Most of these cheap CEO’s are loud and boisterous and that’s why they fail in long haul. Maybe he’s the one to do it.
Yeah, most CEO’s would just say we will not fail we will succeed and earn so much more. And here we have Norse CEO we will probably fail in Winter but hopefully not
Why legacy airlines are cheaper these days is partly because of the fact that they are following LCCs' offerings. With tight seats and bare fares in economy class you can't really tell the differences between the two.
I wish more airlines would concentrate on improving service rather than taking away services to look cheaper. I pay extra (not much extra) to fly Korean Air because their service is impeccable, and their layover in Seoul is a wonderful airport. After a trans-pacific flight, the free shower at the airport is a wonderful treat. 😎
I fly American. That’s it. Once my company put me on Spirit, once on Allegiant, for scheduling purposes, but otherwise American. Show up with two bags, hand to the clerk, they give you the pass, you get on the plane, get a drink and a meal, and off you go. Charging fees for effectively implied services is no different than putting it in the fares. Added fees for checking luggage on a transatlantic flight? It does not cost the airline $70 to carry fifty extra pounds across the ocean. The cost is flying across the ocean at all.
Exactly. And sorry, for $50 of savings I'll not switch to an airline where I cannot get miles for status and I even have to pay for carryon luggage or some drinks on the plane. In Long haul flights the cost of fuel becomes the highest operating cost fraction. You cannot get go under that. And not selling premium and business seats makes long haul as no frills extremely risky with a very slim margin of failure.
@@qwerty112311People get tricked over and over again and never look at the complete price. And then you drink a coke and a beer on board and without hesitation you hand over the credit card - and it's now already more expensive than on a standard airline.
I agree 100%. I avoid the economy airlines for this reason. I don’t pay first class because that’s for suckers, but if I can get premium “economy” I’ll take that every time. I don’t mind paying an extra 25% above the economy fares. Take out some seats. Stop playing games with luggage and charge an appropriate price. The other thing I worry about with cheap airlines is just how they are beating costs to include the possibility of skipping maintenance, which has happened before. Flying today is about as comfortable as a colonoscopy.
Interesting video. However nothing is certain in aviation. When you interviewed Norse the plan was to serve the Caribbean from LGW. But it hasn't quite worked out as planned. 1. Launch date of the three routes was put back from end October to December 1 2. Kingston was axed. 3. Latest is that Barbados is cut from daily to x5 a week.
I never understood the appeal of the carriers with all of the ancillary fees. Of course, there is a fee or two you can skip, but when it comes to bags and several other things, it’s the same price as a legacy carrier.
Because I refuse to have a connecting flight just to fly to Cancun from the Midwest US, I'm forced to use Frontier. By the time I pay for everything, which includes a bigger seat, I'm paying well over what a legacy carrier would charge, but then I'd be stuck with a connection which is prohibitive for me. It's sad that there are no legacy carriers flying direct from Cleveland or Pittsburgh to Cancun because they insist on using the hub and spoke system. I would gladly pay more for a premium economy or business class ticket for this simple route even if there were only a few per week.
Have flown both Frenchbee and Play. PLAY is literally spirit of the transatlantic market. Frenchbee however, flew them SF to Tahiti, and Boston to SF on Alaska all booked through Frenchbee, was a great experience under $1000 roundtrip to paradise meal included, IFEs, and a personal item, carry on, and a checked bag. Probably the best deal I've ever gotten on a flight. Will definitely fly them again.
We need more competition in this space again. These legacy airline are ripping us off. Delta and United are the worst of the bunch. I'll do my best to support these low cost airlines. Flew on Norse and it was a better experience than Delta. I wish they flew directly to MSP so I wouldn't have to connect through JFK.
Their pricing is fair if you compare it to low cost. If you want any kind of checked bags or service provided by the legacy not included in the low cost, you’re paying almost the same price. Also routes are everything. It’s worth it to pay a little more for a better routes which legacy carriers usually have more of. If you only have a backpack it makes sense. Anything else, I would much rather fly legacy. Usually shorter trips and cost is same.
Honestly, Delta has always been reasonable, and much better experience than, say, Ryanair, where they try and sell you scratch-off tickets and charge for carry-ons and a first checked bag
I just booked a one-way premium economy ticket from LAX to LGW with Norse Airline. It's way cheaper than major airlines' premium economy and offers much more legroom. Besides, they don't jack up the one-way price like other major airlines.
Exactly this. It's Norse's premium offering that is incredible, especially for the redeyes to Europe. The seats are simply enormous. I've been using them JFK-LGW for over a year now. You don't need to reserve a seat if the cabin is half-empty.
Legacy carriers offers you miles and status points (important if your a frequest flier) business class check in (little queing) lounge access with food and drink and showers etc extra luggage allowance if you have high status (i can check in upto 64kg on an economy class ticket as i'm BA gold) free seat selection including extra leg room seats, the operate a hub and spoke model and code share with other airlines in the group so you can go from anywhere to anywhere on one ticket/booking, the benefits of my gold status is recognised by 15 other airlines when i fly with them, can use my airmiles to book upgrade myself for free(just pay the taxes) and if i miss my flight with BA they put me on the next one in a few hours for free.... so many benefits, if i miss my Budget airline flight, i have buy a new ticket and the net flight might be in a day or two, like he said in the video, when you add on the extra it's often more expensive, I mean the amount of food and drink i consume at the airport in the lounges i can access is over £100-150 easy (with the champage lol), the 64kg luggage allowance is a god send, the extra legroom seat for free are great on long flights, they can often cost upward of £100 per flight, and i get free flights now and again with enough miles. And i love to fly into the main airport of the city, not a secondary airport 60miles away Both have their place in the industry, legacy just suites me
It's been analyzed and proven 100x that budget long haul serving ultra competitive routes will burn through cash competing with legacy airlines. The model isn't sustainable. The key is to create demand with undeserved connections. Good luck Norse.
Exactly. Delta, United, American and British airways are never going to cede territory to other airlines because it’s a massive cash cow. British made over $1bn usd just from JFK-LHR in one year. If legacy carriers need to sink in money to those routes to remain competitive, they will
@@Patrick_120 The breakeven point on said transatlantic route in 2023 is ~US$350/ticket. As others have said, this route has been studied to death and why pretty much no budget airline offers it for an extended time. Budget airlines only succeed when servicing smaller markets/airports.
This is just a return to the pre steamship days of transatlantic ocean passage, where passengers booked a steerage bunk on a wooden sail-powered ship and brought their own provisions, lol.
Pre-steamship? You either read a lot or are really old. You really don't have to go that far back in time regarding transatlantic crossings. Later steamship days were just in the last century and they had a class system, too. A steerage bunk was likely much larger than an economy class seat on an aircraft, and lie flat, as well. And, best of all, you could walk around your part of the ship a lot easier than airplane space.
Been happily flying French Bee from Newak to Paris-Orly since it's inception in 2018. If you buy early and eschew the add-ons you can save money. I stopped checking bags years ago - that's where problems start. Before French Bee there was Open Skies on the same route. Well worth it as both Newark and Orly are closer, and easier, for me. They fly lovely new Airbus 350 aircraft. High season and late purchase they are same price as the others. But you still won't get me on AA, and I avoid JFK like the pest.
He probably did :) As a guy who moved to finance, I've heard that many times from investors, and fund managers. Famously when asked - "why are seats so small Mr. Crandall?" His reply... "Because customers want them that way" Meaning, this is what they are willing to buy. @@johniii8147
I looked up Virgin Atlantic, 22 September to 1 October, for Heathrow to JFK. It did offer a fare of £398.51 for economy light, but on return I could only have "economy classic" for £518.51 return, or about $653. And if it IS classic you get a checked bag etc.
Low cost transatlantic flights are sustainable.....for the summer season. Treat the aircraft like cruise ships and change to hotter routes in the off season.
Flew with Norse last June (Oslo-NY). It was one of their first flights. The flight attendants were struggling a little, mixing things up, but overall it was a good and certainly cheap experience. Flying with them again later this year from London to San Francisco and then back from Miami to London. Got the tickets during another one of their sales. Their sale prices are unbeatable. I hope they continue to operate successfully.
I would never go to the US without a suitcase. In denmark we call the word regarding highest ancillary cariers In danish: Gebyrgrib (a vulture charging fees).
I only fly transatlantic (I stick to trains within the continent) and it really does seem hard to do on a budget. A lot more restrictions and requirements since it is crossing a major sea after all. The competition is good but it seems very unstable compared to cheap short hauls. I still use the major carriers, usually Air France. It's nice to get a proper bundle and not have everything behind a fee. Though all economy classes are just varying levels of discomfort.
Prices might be not that much lower but when i want to fly from Berlin to New York Delta and United are besides Norse the only options. They only operate old 767´s on this route. I couldt imagine someone would pick a 767 over a 787.
I been flying low cost airlines to europe for last 10 years. Every year one goes out of business and every year another one buys up those planes and starts again😊
Low cost refers to their costs not the price of the ticket. If Norse has lower internal costs than United it’s irrelevant that United sells cheaper tickets , Norse will make more money than United.
I realized a few months ago booking a flight here in the US that sure, the budget airlines are cheaper if I want to travel with the clothes on my back. Anything more than that, I booked a flight on united that was cheaper. by the time I would have paid for a carry on, a check bag, and a half can of flat diet soda on spirit, it was the same. Or within such a small margin it wasn't worth it.
Nah, you haven't seen real lowcosters, no booking, same day, 30-50 bucks the cheapest ticket during week until friday+weekends for domestic flight in EU or Third world (India, Africa, China, Russia). 250 bucks cheapest is only the USA "situation" of monopolised market.
Repeal the Jones Act. "What's that?" Per investopedia: "The Jones Act requires that any cargo traveling by sea between two U.S. ports must sail on an American-owned ship, built in the United States and with a majority crew of U.S. citizens. The Jones Act was passed in the wake of the first World War to boost the shipping industry." This is why international carriers like BA, Norse, Ryan Air, etc. don't do domestic flights in the U.S. For further information, see the wiki article on the Jones Act and also look up something called "cabotage".
The Jones Act does not apply to airlines, only maritime operations. The ability for a foreign carrier to operate air service between points within a country is determined by that nation’s air carrier laws, and is extremely rare outside the EU.
To clarify the law regarding carriage of severely disabled and blind people on these low cost airlines. The person who s disabled decides the exact seat suited for their particular disabilities. The operator does not decide this. The operator will loose their operating license if they try to charge a severely disabled person for a seat suitable for that disability. They cannot sell the seat to non disabled person the airline will need to place non disabled persons else where if the seat is needed for a severely disabled blind person. The airport is responsible for carriage of the severely disabled blind person before and after departure. The carriage of a wheelchair is not chargeable as luggage on such airlines. The government accepts the law precludes the charging of ATD to those severely disabled blind people defined in primary legislation FAA legislation is similar. Failure to observe these primary legislative requirements can hold up departure or cancel the flight. Please note discrimination against the disabled is common on low cost airlines. If any of these airlines want to survive they will need to move to charging per KG of passenger weight including baggage as fuel cost is the greatest operating cost at the moment. For those who favour value the business operating model of ZIP airlines will be a favoured business model.
Although it may not exactly be a low-cost airline, I just flown the Iberia Airline and found their economy seats quite spacious, comparing to other airlines. It was a pleasant surprise.
after 2 wonderful premium economy flights this year i convinced three friends to book. Norse has cancelled our flights at the last minute and ghosted us. no response to all contacts and no effort to comply with the law requiring offering rebooking alternatives. its sad that customers who word of mouth sold tickets are abandoned to save a few norwegian K when so many dedicated staff are working so hard to rebuild the brand
Is this is a story of how a WSJ journalist stabs the back of Norse? Apparently Norse gave him access to a plane for shooting, value CEO time for interviewing. In return, Noorse is NOT cheaper than your transitional airline. It's not even sustainable. lol. I guess most passengers don't care. Platforms such as Google flight makes it super easy to find the best deal. Travelers just have to smart enough for account for their luggage/preference situations.
booked flights months ago with another family bc this will probably be his last trip and Norse just put us on another flight on another day- didn't even ask! We have to travel across the world to get home !!! I am so disappointed, our first time flying Norse and our last! This is horrible, you have now split up families and causing a lot of grief!! A real hardship! Please fix this!!!
The last time I flew my knees touched the seat in front of me on a 12 hour flight and I am only 5' 4", I do not see how anyone taller than that could be comfortable for 12 hours. I wanted to lay down on the floor and I have risk for thrombosis while flying so I do not fly anywhere, anymore for that reason.
I flew on a norse flight from london to boston earlier this week, and i have to say that i liked the experience. I thought it was cool. The check in line was awfully long, but that was the only inconvenience.
Where are these deals spoken of in the title of this video? I looked for flights in February, May, and in August... I found NONE. The prices were MORE expensive, not cheaper.
I wonder if the first successful large-scale low-cost transatlantic routes will actually come from American instead of European carriers. The reasoning is that the issue of winter is not so profound in the United States, because it is geographically much easier to use the same aircraft to fly southward to tropical destinations instead of eastward to Europe during those months. In particular, JetBlue has a very heavy Caribbean presence, and is slowly but surely adding destinations to Europe with the A321LR, which is smaller and much easier to fill than the 787. So far, they are flying to London, Paris, and Amsterdam.
But JetBlue is not a low-cost carrier on the transatlantic. It is more like a full-service airline and onboard catering is excellent catering. Just check the flight checks on TH-cam.
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I would not rank based on cheap price but how much pain you want to endure on a 6hr transatlantic flight. I found that these budget unless you are willing to suffer by the time you 'add' on all the thing you might want for a comfortable flight is about the same on a legacy carrier.
Hard to justify them I used Norse to go JFK to London was $777 after bags with Norse. This time it’s $621 with United EWR to London in Economy. I’d rather play it safe.
Or maybe try and launch limited experimental flights during these down times to markets that are underserved like Edmonton. We used to have London, Amsterdam, Frankfurt and Reykjavik flights, daily non-stop in some cases, and now we are forgotten despite being the 4th largest metro in Canada and the fastest growing... yet the route network always routes you through Toronto first.. No thanks!
I got the first LA-Oslo flight on Norse last year for $500 ROUNDTRIP. Sweet deal that you won't see again! Also Frenchbee to Tahiti, great food, very roomy, great entertainment.
They can last a little longer by ripping off their customers by selling them lounge access at JFK T7 when that airport lounge does not take bookings because you have to pay $65 at the door to get access. Flew Norse Atlantic from JFK Terminal 7 to London Gatwick on Friday November 3rd 2023. Booked my self and son via the web. Bought the add on of lounge access before my flight, not cheap. Delighted to discover that the Terminal 7 airport lounge does NOT accept bookings from Norse and you have to pay $65 at the door to access the lounge. I complained to the gate staff, and they knew about this. So delighted to have been defrauded by Norse Atlantic Airways taking cash from me to book something their staff knew was impossible. From what the airport lounge staff said, this is a regular occurance. So I'm spreading the love by leaving this comment in as many Norse videos that I can find.
Could the legacy carriers close them strategically? Like losing a bunch of money in the winter so that low costs close and then make a lot of money in the summer without competition?
Fingers crossed airlines like Norse and Play win. Norwegian did get unlucky with the 737 max groundings and COVID, so we'll see how Norse goes without that. Play also has the advantage of operating cheaper narrow-body long range aircraft.
I'd say it highly depends On some routes where there's limited options, The rebundled cost can be cheaper, just gotta keep in mind the extra cost when going very budget Though if you're checking in a bag, you're gonna pay it in all cases
It depends how many of those ancillary costs you're going to want. The unbundling of ancillaries also has a psychological aspect because you've already started your booking at that point. As long as you're willing to back out and keep an eye on the legacy airline flight then you can make the best deal for you
I don't see how the WSJ got their numbers. If I go to Norse's website 5 months out, I can get a premium economy ticket round trip between JFK and Paris for $1020. On Delta that same ticket on Premium plus (the equivalent) is $1800. United? $1750. American? $1745. So I am not sure what class on legacy carriers they are picking, but if they try to compare a comparative premium product like Comfort+ on Delta and not Premium Select which is the equivalent of Norse's product (or comes closest), then yes, Delta is cheaper but you are getting an inferior experience.
The monopoly of expensive airplane tickets exists only in USA and it's awful. There's no such high prices for domestic in EU with lowcosters, in absence of trains in USA. Baggage can be FedEx'd like postage separately-lifehack
LLC long haul just have not proven to be a sustainable model other than a few in Asia. Transatlantic in particular hasn't worked. way too much competition
@@skylineXpert Yes it *could* Problem is that these A321s will be expensive to buy as Airbus cannot meet demand. Can a budget airline afford expensive aircraft ?
@@alexmcwhirter6611 2 A321s are still cheaper than one 787 or A330NEO that carries around the same passengers. But A321 is still competitive in terms of seat cost (unlike 757), while much easier to fill. Also most LCCs and many legacy carriers don't own aircraft. Instead they either use sales and leaseback contracts, or lease from lessor right from the beginning.
It has partially worked. Yes many have failed since Laker SkyTrain but Iceland air, if you consider it a budget operator, has survived since its Loftleidir days.
@@alexmcwhirter6611 I wouldn't consider Iceland Air an LLC/budget carrier. they have been around since 1937 so they are an established carrier and considered the flag carrier for the country.
I really want this carrier to succeed because of passengers who wish to travel long haul on a limited budget. Winter months tend to see demand fall but you still see millions of passengers shuttle btw Europe and North America for a whole host of other reasons besides tourism. I have families in USA that I visit all year round. If winter months don’t get profitable, hunkering down isn’t a bad idea if you don’t have debt. It would also stop you incurring debt. The CEO has a good grasp of the market, so I really don’t see not working in the long term.
Call me crazy.., but I don’t want to fly transatlantic on old planes that have already been used 15 to 25 years by another airline! I want a company with newer more up to date airplanes! … Do not at all mind paying more money to fly on newer fleet Airplanes! …. I like how Delta and other large airlines are not afraid to discontinue aging planes for brand new ones! Parts wear out, I don’t like older planes the budget airlines use!
I fly transatlantic multiple times a year and always been intrigued by these "low cost" airlines. But seen so many fail that I'd rather pay the premium and go via American and be confident my flight will operate!
They won't survive :( 50% of an airlines cost is fuel and labour - things you quite literally can't change. Safety regs force you to have reserve + contingency fuel and a pilot, copilot and a stewardess per 50 passengers. Those flight attendants even pay for themselves with the overpriced food, drinks, wifi they upsell customers.
More and more. Luggage gets lost and damaged, especially on transfer. You save time at both ends as well. Surprising how little you acutally need and now much you can stuff in a carryon.
We haven't checked luggage in over 10 years. We usually travel with a personal item (backpack) and, if we're flying international, we add a small carry-on which is usually free.
I saw a lot of Norse planes at London Gatwick last week when I was there but unfortunately, they don't fly between Canada and the UK. I do hope to see them survive and thrive and perhaps bring operations up north and more competition to our Canadian legacy airlines. But I would be put off by them charging extra for carry on and a meal on a transatlantic flight. At least our legacy airlines haven't done that...yet.
Good report; enjoy 🛬 the flight as long as it lasts, nothing lasts forever. Lot of people are flying thanks to these low cost airlines if governments can subsidies public transportation why not air travel? It has lots of health benefits and world 🗺 is becoming a global village.
I think the fall of Norwegian low cost long haul routes was more due to act of God (The Pandemic) then a bad business model. If anything business travel heavy legacy carriers are going to have a tougher time while leisure oriented low airlines thrive. I can see Southwest buying a fleet of widebodies to fly to Europe or even Ryanair experimenting with flights to North America.
The problem is they rely heavily on debts to expand. When repayment started kicking in it put great pressure on the cash flow, and those who can't withstand that go down. Another problem is capital cost for widebodies are expensive (except fully depreciation old frames, of course), but until now they are the only practical aircraft for mid to long haul. Meanwhile 757 is not very suitable for high utilisation LCCs due to its age and poor seat cost (but fine for leisure carriers, which often sits their aircraft for months). A321LR/XLR should makes live easier, but don't expect a sudden boom of longhaul LCC anytime soon.
Norwegian were losing money hand over fist way before covid, like a punch drunk fighter it just finally finished them off. Just like Flybe. Neither were sustainable business models.
The Norse CEO was surprisingly very transparent. Honestly hope they are successful because it’s good to see competition.
Well said
The Norse CEO was very refreshing in his honesty and realism. Most of these cheap CEO’s are loud and boisterous and that’s why they fail in long haul. Maybe he’s the one to do it.
Yeah, most CEO’s would just say we will not fail we will succeed and earn so much more. And here we have Norse CEO we will probably fail in Winter but hopefully not
he has shrunk to absent on these recent cancellations
Trust me.
Budget flyers aren't concerned about brand awareness. They search and whatever is cheapest they'll buy
I am concerned about brand reputation though.
But they can’t find an airline that they don’t know exists. That’s where brand awareness comes in, really.
i only care about legroom
@@unconventionalideas5683they come up on every search engine on internet, the best way for budget travellers to compare different prices on airfares
Indeed. No loyalty with budget flyers.
Why legacy airlines are cheaper these days is partly because of the fact that they are following LCCs' offerings. With tight seats and bare fares in economy class you can't really tell the differences between the two.
I wish more airlines would concentrate on improving service rather than taking away services to look cheaper. I pay extra (not much extra) to fly Korean Air because their service is impeccable, and their layover in Seoul is a wonderful airport. After a trans-pacific flight, the free shower at the airport is a wonderful treat. 😎
I fly American. That’s it. Once my company put me on Spirit, once on Allegiant, for scheduling purposes, but otherwise American. Show up with two bags, hand to the clerk, they give you the pass, you get on the plane, get a drink and a meal, and off you go. Charging fees for effectively implied services is no different than putting it in the fares. Added fees for checking luggage on a transatlantic flight? It does not cost the airline $70 to carry fifty extra pounds across the ocean. The cost is flying across the ocean at all.
Not going to happen. People want cheap fares more than good service. Time and time again, the market has shown low fares reign supreme.
Exactly. And sorry, for $50 of savings I'll not switch to an airline where I cannot get miles for status and I even have to pay for carryon luggage or some drinks on the plane.
In Long haul flights the cost of fuel becomes the highest operating cost fraction. You cannot get go under that. And not selling premium and business seats makes long haul as no frills extremely risky with a very slim margin of failure.
@@qwerty112311People get tricked over and over again and never look at the complete price. And then you drink a coke and a beer on board and without hesitation you hand over the credit card - and it's now already more expensive than on a standard airline.
I agree 100%. I avoid the economy airlines for this reason. I don’t pay first class because that’s for suckers, but if I can get premium “economy” I’ll take that every time. I don’t mind paying an extra 25% above the economy fares. Take out some seats. Stop playing games with luggage and charge an appropriate price. The other thing I worry about with cheap airlines is just how they are beating costs to include the possibility of skipping maintenance, which has happened before. Flying today is about as comfortable as a colonoscopy.
Interesting video. However nothing is certain in aviation. When you interviewed Norse the plan was to serve the Caribbean from LGW. But it hasn't quite worked out as planned. 1. Launch date of the three routes was put back from end October to December 1 2. Kingston was axed. 3. Latest is that Barbados is cut from daily to x5 a week.
They're better at flying "Norse" than South ✈
I never understood the appeal of the carriers with all of the ancillary fees. Of course, there is a fee or two you can skip, but when it comes to bags and several other things, it’s the same price as a legacy carrier.
I only use them for short trips, almost always cheaper to take legacy carriers once you have a checked bag
Because I refuse to have a connecting flight just to fly to Cancun from the Midwest US, I'm forced to use Frontier.
By the time I pay for everything, which includes a bigger seat, I'm paying well over what a legacy carrier would charge, but then I'd be stuck with a connection which is prohibitive for me.
It's sad that there are no legacy carriers flying direct from Cleveland or Pittsburgh to Cancun because they insist on using the hub and spoke system.
I would gladly pay more for a premium economy or business class ticket for this simple route even if there were only a few per week.
Because some people fly without checked bags, especially for short trips.
Carriers like Norse also offer superior seating (something akin to PE) which makes comfort more affordable for those who can pay extra.
Spirit is the WORST. I think you have to pay for water and pressurized air...
Have flown both Frenchbee and Play. PLAY is literally spirit of the transatlantic market. Frenchbee however, flew them SF to Tahiti, and Boston to SF on Alaska all booked through Frenchbee, was a great experience under $1000 roundtrip to paradise meal included, IFEs, and a personal item, carry on, and a checked bag. Probably the best deal I've ever gotten on a flight. Will definitely fly them again.
Norse and Frenchbee look pretty good. Play looks like Spirit or some tacky low-cost Euro carrier.
We need more competition in this space again. These legacy airline are ripping us off. Delta and United are the worst of the bunch. I'll do my best to support these low cost airlines. Flew on Norse and it was a better experience than Delta. I wish they flew directly to MSP so I wouldn't have to connect through JFK.
I agree, its a best strategy.
Norse wouldn't serve MSP. Low-cost airlines prefer volume routes.
Their pricing is fair if you compare it to low cost. If you want any kind of checked bags or service provided by the legacy not included in the low cost, you’re paying almost the same price. Also routes are everything. It’s worth it to pay a little more for a better routes which legacy carriers usually have more of.
If you only have a backpack it makes sense. Anything else, I would much rather fly legacy. Usually shorter trips and cost is same.
no we dont....de-regulation has ruined the industry and the experience
Honestly, Delta has always been reasonable, and much better experience than, say, Ryanair, where they try and sell you scratch-off tickets and charge for carry-ons and a first checked bag
I just booked a one-way premium economy ticket from LAX to LGW with Norse Airline. It's way cheaper than major airlines' premium economy and offers much more legroom. Besides, they don't jack up the one-way price like other major airlines.
Exactly this. It's Norse's premium offering that is incredible, especially for the redeyes to Europe. The seats are simply enormous. I've been using them JFK-LGW for over a year now. You don't need to reserve a seat if the cabin is half-empty.
That is exactly my gripe with the legacy airlines.
Legacy carriers offers you miles and status points (important if your a frequest flier) business class check in (little queing) lounge access with food and drink and showers etc extra luggage allowance if you have high status (i can check in upto 64kg on an economy class ticket as i'm BA gold) free seat selection including extra leg room seats, the operate a hub and spoke model and code share with other airlines in the group so you can go from anywhere to anywhere on one ticket/booking, the benefits of my gold status is recognised by 15 other airlines when i fly with them, can use my airmiles to book upgrade myself for free(just pay the taxes) and if i miss my flight with BA they put me on the next one in a few hours for free.... so many benefits, if i miss my Budget airline flight, i have buy a new ticket and the net flight might be in a day or two, like he said in the video, when you add on the extra it's often more expensive, I mean the amount of food and drink i consume at the airport in the lounges i can access is over £100-150 easy (with the champage lol), the 64kg luggage allowance is a god send, the extra legroom seat for free are great on long flights, they can often cost upward of £100 per flight, and i get free flights now and again with enough miles. And i love to fly into the main airport of the city, not a secondary airport 60miles away
Both have their place in the industry, legacy just suites me
It's been analyzed and proven 100x that budget long haul serving ultra competitive routes will burn through cash competing with legacy airlines. The model isn't sustainable. The key is to create demand with undeserved connections. Good luck Norse.
Exactly. Delta, United, American and British airways are never going to cede territory to other airlines because it’s a massive cash cow. British made over $1bn usd just from JFK-LHR in one year. If legacy carriers need to sink in money to those routes to remain competitive, they will
@@Patrick_120 The breakeven point on said transatlantic route in 2023 is ~US$350/ticket. As others have said, this route has been studied to death and why pretty much no budget airline offers it for an extended time. Budget airlines only succeed when servicing smaller markets/airports.
This is just a return to the pre steamship days of transatlantic ocean passage, where passengers booked a steerage bunk on a wooden sail-powered ship and brought their own provisions, lol.
Pre-steamship? You either read a lot or are really old. You really don't have to go that far back in time regarding transatlantic crossings. Later steamship days were just in the last century and they had a class system, too. A steerage bunk was likely much larger than an economy class seat on an aircraft, and lie flat, as well. And, best of all, you could walk around your part of the ship a lot easier than airplane space.
Great video on a very interesting topic. I would love to have more. More interviews, more analysys… but wonderful video , congrats
I don’t plan to ever fly these low cost carriers, but I’m glad they exist because they force the legacy airlines to innovate, and be competitive.
More competition is good. Keeps the big players honest with their prices.
To the editor. The sound design with that little “woosh” sound when he walks through “unbundling ancillaries 🤩
🤜🏼🤛🏼
Been happily flying French Bee from Newak to Paris-Orly since it's inception in 2018. If you buy early and eschew the add-ons you can save money. I stopped checking bags years ago - that's where problems start. Before French Bee there was Open Skies on the same route. Well worth it as both Newark and Orly are closer, and easier, for me. They fly lovely new Airbus 350 aircraft. High season and late purchase they are same price as the others. But you still won't get me on AA, and I avoid JFK like the pest.
I remember when Norwegian operated cheap flights between London and Rio. Unfortunately, the company went into crisis and that ended.
From a former sales manager with United
How to make $1 million USD?
Invest $1 billion in an airline :)
Crandall said that decades ago now
He probably did :)
As a guy who moved to finance, I've heard that many times from investors, and fund managers.
Famously when asked - "why are seats so small Mr. Crandall?"
His reply...
"Because customers want them that way"
Meaning, this is what they are willing to buy.
@@johniii8147
excellent content
I looked up Virgin Atlantic, 22 September to 1 October, for Heathrow to JFK. It did offer a fare of £398.51 for economy light, but on return I could only have "economy classic" for £518.51 return, or about $653. And if it IS classic you get a checked bag etc.
Low cost transatlantic flights are sustainable.....for the summer season. Treat the aircraft like cruise ships and change to hotter routes in the off season.
Flew with Norse last June (Oslo-NY). It was one of their first flights. The flight attendants were struggling a little, mixing things up, but overall it was a good and certainly cheap experience. Flying with them again later this year from London to San Francisco and then back from Miami to London. Got the tickets during another one of their sales. Their sale prices are unbeatable. I hope they continue to operate successfully.
705$ is not a lowcost flight
I would never go to the US without a suitcase.
In denmark we call the word regarding highest ancillary cariers In danish: Gebyrgrib (a vulture charging fees).
I only fly transatlantic (I stick to trains within the continent) and it really does seem hard to do on a budget. A lot more restrictions and requirements since it is crossing a major sea after all. The competition is good but it seems very unstable compared to cheap short hauls.
I still use the major carriers, usually Air France. It's nice to get a proper bundle and not have everything behind a fee. Though all economy classes are just varying levels of discomfort.
Prices might be not that much lower but when i want to fly from Berlin to New York Delta and United are besides Norse the only options. They only operate old 767´s on this route. I couldt imagine someone would pick a 767 over a 787.
The 767 has wider seats than the 787
It's the growth in economic activity that brings in Airtravel. Not like a seasonal one to reduce and raise the prices of Airfare.
I been flying low cost airlines to europe for last 10 years. Every year one goes out of business and every year another one buys up those planes and starts again😊
Low cost refers to their costs not the price of the ticket. If Norse has lower internal costs than United it’s irrelevant that United sells cheaper tickets , Norse will make more money than United.
excellent video on basic business economics. should be used in high school and college classes.
I hate so much ancillary costs. Feels like one is taken advantage of every time
Very insightful!
I realized a few months ago booking a flight here in the US that sure, the budget airlines are cheaper if I want to travel with the clothes on my back. Anything more than that, I booked a flight on united that was cheaper. by the time I would have paid for a carry on, a check bag, and a half can of flat diet soda on spirit, it was the same. Or within such a small margin it wasn't worth it.
Nah, you haven't seen real lowcosters, no booking, same day, 30-50 bucks the cheapest ticket during week until friday+weekends for domestic flight in EU or Third world (India, Africa, China, Russia). 250 bucks cheapest is only the USA "situation" of monopolised market.
Excellent video. Thanks !!
Repeal the Jones Act. "What's that?" Per investopedia: "The Jones Act requires that any cargo traveling by sea between two U.S. ports must sail on an American-owned ship, built in the United States and with a majority crew of U.S. citizens. The Jones Act was passed in the wake of the first World War to boost the shipping industry." This is why international carriers like BA, Norse, Ryan Air, etc. don't do domestic flights in the U.S. For further information, see the wiki article on the Jones Act and also look up something called "cabotage".
The Jones Act does not apply to airlines, only maritime operations. The ability for a foreign carrier to operate air service between points within a country is determined by that nation’s air carrier laws, and is extremely rare outside the EU.
The airlines with the best margins should win, right?
Correct. Here in Europe people complain about Ryanair's service but it's the most profitable and a survivor.
To clarify the law regarding carriage of severely disabled and blind people on these low cost airlines.
The person who s disabled decides the exact seat suited for their particular disabilities.
The operator does not decide this.
The operator will loose their operating license if they try to charge a severely disabled person for a seat suitable for that disability.
They cannot sell the seat to non disabled person the airline will need to place non disabled persons else where if the seat is needed for a severely disabled blind person.
The airport is responsible for carriage of the severely disabled blind person before and after departure.
The carriage of a wheelchair is not chargeable as luggage on such airlines.
The government accepts the law precludes the charging of ATD to those severely disabled blind people defined in primary legislation FAA legislation is similar.
Failure to observe these primary legislative requirements can hold up departure or cancel the flight.
Please note discrimination against the disabled is common on low cost airlines.
If any of these airlines want to survive they will need to move to charging per KG of passenger weight including baggage as fuel cost is the greatest operating cost at the moment. For those who favour value the business operating model of ZIP airlines will be a favoured business model.
Although it may not exactly be a low-cost airline, I just flown the Iberia Airline and found their economy seats quite spacious, comparing to other airlines. It was a pleasant surprise.
after 2 wonderful premium economy flights this year i convinced three friends to book. Norse has cancelled our flights at the last minute and ghosted us. no response to all contacts and no effort to comply with the law requiring offering rebooking alternatives. its sad that customers who word of mouth sold tickets are abandoned to save a few norwegian K when so many dedicated staff are working so hard to rebuild the brand
Flying Norse from Paris to NYC was one of the worst flights I have ever taken
Is this is a story of how a WSJ journalist stabs the back of Norse? Apparently Norse gave him access to a plane for shooting, value CEO time for interviewing. In return, Noorse is NOT cheaper than your transitional airline. It's not even sustainable. lol. I guess most passengers don't care. Platforms such as Google flight makes it super easy to find the best deal. Travelers just have to smart enough for account for their luggage/preference situations.
booked flights months ago with another family bc this will probably be his last trip and Norse just put us on another flight on another day- didn't even ask! We have to travel across the world to get home !!! I am so disappointed, our first time flying Norse and our last! This is horrible, you have now split up families and causing a lot of grief!! A real hardship!
Please fix this!!!
The last time I flew my knees touched the seat in front of me on a 12 hour flight and I am only 5' 4", I do not see how anyone taller than that could be comfortable for 12 hours. I wanted to lay down on the floor and I have risk for thrombosis while flying so I do not fly anywhere, anymore for that reason.
I flew on a norse flight from london to boston earlier this week, and i have to say that i liked the experience. I thought it was cool. The check in line was awfully long, but that was the only inconvenience.
Where are these deals spoken of in the title of this video? I looked for flights in February, May, and in August... I found NONE. The prices were MORE expensive, not cheaper.
I wish legacy airlines would be more reasonable with one way flights. The LCA are way better with those.
Good. Flying should be a luxury.
I wonder if the first successful large-scale low-cost transatlantic routes will actually come from American instead of European carriers. The reasoning is that the issue of winter is not so profound in the United States, because it is geographically much easier to use the same aircraft to fly southward to tropical destinations instead of eastward to Europe during those months. In particular, JetBlue has a very heavy Caribbean presence, and is slowly but surely adding destinations to Europe with the A321LR, which is smaller and much easier to fill than the 787. So far, they are flying to London, Paris, and Amsterdam.
But JetBlue is not a low-cost carrier on the transatlantic. It is more like a full-service airline and onboard catering is excellent catering. Just check the flight checks on TH-cam.
I would not rank based on cheap price but how much pain you want to endure on a 6hr transatlantic flight. I found that these budget unless you are willing to suffer by the time you 'add' on all the thing you might want for a comfortable flight is about the same on a legacy carrier.
Im proud to be a norwegian hearing Norse CEO
Hard to justify them I used Norse to go JFK to London was $777 after bags with Norse. This time it’s $621 with United EWR to London in Economy. I’d rather play it safe.
A gold rendition, I wanna taste it feel it, camp it out somewhere near a mainline toilet around the corner, lots of rain.
Or maybe try and launch limited experimental flights during these down times to markets that are underserved like Edmonton. We used to have London, Amsterdam, Frankfurt and Reykjavik flights, daily non-stop in some cases, and now we are forgotten despite being the 4th largest metro in Canada and the fastest growing... yet the route network always routes you through Toronto first.. No thanks!
I got the first LA-Oslo flight on Norse last year for $500 ROUNDTRIP. Sweet deal that you won't see again! Also Frenchbee to Tahiti, great food, very roomy, great entertainment.
Wow, cheap flights sound tempting, but are they sustainable? 🤔
If you go travel just on a backpack and you bring your own food, sure, you can save money on an LCC transcontinental flight
They can last a little longer by ripping off their customers by selling them lounge access at JFK T7 when that airport lounge does not take bookings because you have to pay $65 at the door to get access.
Flew Norse Atlantic from JFK Terminal 7 to London Gatwick on Friday November 3rd 2023. Booked my self and son via the web. Bought the add on of lounge access before my flight, not cheap. Delighted to discover that the Terminal 7 airport lounge does NOT accept bookings from Norse and you have to pay $65 at the door to access the lounge. I complained to the gate staff, and they knew about this. So delighted to have been defrauded by Norse Atlantic Airways taking cash from me to book something their staff knew was impossible. From what the airport lounge staff said, this is a regular occurance.
So I'm spreading the love by leaving this comment in as many Norse videos that I can find.
Could the legacy carriers close them strategically? Like losing a bunch of money in the winter so that low costs close and then make a lot of money in the summer without competition?
Fingers crossed airlines like Norse and Play win. Norwegian did get unlucky with the 737 max groundings and COVID, so we'll see how Norse goes without that. Play also has the advantage of operating cheaper narrow-body long range aircraft.
In short, just book with the legacy carriers because unbundled low cost flights are a myth. Got it.
I'd say it highly depends
On some routes where there's limited options,
The rebundled cost can be cheaper, just gotta keep in mind the extra cost when going very budget
Though if you're checking in a bag, you're gonna pay it in all cases
It depends how many of those ancillary costs you're going to want. The unbundling of ancillaries also has a psychological aspect because you've already started your booking at that point.
As long as you're willing to back out and keep an eye on the legacy airline flight then you can make the best deal for you
Informative. Good to watch thanks
I don't see how the WSJ got their numbers. If I go to Norse's website 5 months out, I can get a premium economy ticket round trip between JFK and Paris for $1020. On Delta that same ticket on Premium plus (the equivalent) is $1800. United? $1750. American? $1745. So I am not sure what class on legacy carriers they are picking, but if they try to compare a comparative premium product like Comfort+ on Delta and not Premium Select which is the equivalent of Norse's product (or comes closest), then yes, Delta is cheaper but you are getting an inferior experience.
in winter switch from east west to north south
The monopoly of expensive airplane tickets exists only in USA and it's awful. There's no such high prices for domestic in EU with lowcosters, in absence of trains in USA. Baggage can be FedEx'd like postage separately-lifehack
WSJ is prob best content
what..just because the guy has the british accent?
Its right wing propaganda
Stop calling airlines with a monopoly “legacy” carriers, only legacy they’ve achieved was the deregulation of the airlines..
LLC long haul just have not proven to be a sustainable model other than a few in Asia. Transatlantic in particular hasn't worked. way too much competition
What could make It work Is the a321xlr.
Look at the operating cost and what potential It has.
OSL-MIA Is not feasable, but LGW-MIA Is...
@@skylineXpert Yes it *could* Problem is that these A321s will be expensive to buy as Airbus cannot meet demand. Can a budget airline afford expensive aircraft ?
@@alexmcwhirter6611 2 A321s are still cheaper than one 787 or A330NEO that carries around the same passengers. But A321 is still competitive in terms of seat cost (unlike 757), while much easier to fill.
Also most LCCs and many legacy carriers don't own aircraft. Instead they either use sales and leaseback contracts, or lease from lessor right from the beginning.
It has partially worked. Yes many have failed since Laker SkyTrain but Iceland air, if you consider it a budget operator, has survived since its Loftleidir days.
@@alexmcwhirter6611 I wouldn't consider Iceland Air an LLC/budget carrier. they have been around since 1937 so they are an established carrier and considered the flag carrier for the country.
We love French Bee!
Fantastic CEO.
I really want this carrier to succeed because of passengers who wish to travel long haul on a limited budget. Winter months tend to see demand fall but you still see millions of passengers shuttle btw Europe and North America for a whole host of other reasons besides tourism. I have families in USA that I visit all year round.
If winter months don’t get profitable, hunkering down isn’t a bad idea if you don’t have debt. It would also stop you incurring debt. The CEO has a good grasp of the market, so I really don’t see not working in the long term.
Very high prices, pay for luggage, pay for snacks , now seats soon toilet use 😂
What a set of pirates! Charging 150 for meals.
People here seem to forget that flyscoot airlines exist a budget Long houl airline being profitable
I don’t want to be flying that long in what is compared to Spirit Airlines.
Most of the time these low cost trans Atlantic carriers are not much cheaper
Still wondering "who" came up with the "Legacy" carriers term... instead of...???
Call me crazy.., but I don’t want to fly transatlantic on old planes that have already been used 15 to 25 years by another airline! I want a company with newer more up to date airplanes!
… Do not at all mind paying more money to fly on newer fleet Airplanes!
…. I like how Delta and other large airlines are not afraid to discontinue aging planes for brand new ones! Parts wear out, I don’t like older planes the budget airlines use!
If there a subway style standing grab pole bar ticket that is cheap enough people will pay for it.
Revenge spending? What is that?
This felt so biased towards legacy american airline companies. We want more competition and European-based airlines so good on them!
'... revenge spending transatlantic travelers' 😂
I’m Bjorn Worried
That’s makes people mad! And then don’t fly with them; ok charge for EXTRA bag but all other stuff should be included
Honestly, Europeans and Americans make great planes but airlines from Middle east, Turkey and Asia are way more quality.
Wait, there are low-cost TATL airlines ???
I fly transatlantic multiple times a year and always been intrigued by these "low cost" airlines. But seen so many fail that I'd rather pay the premium and go via American and be confident my flight will operate!
I dunno, people I know are all complaining about the High costs this year compared to their usual deals.
Europe is no value anymore. Prices have shot way up in every country. Air fares, accomodations, food, car rentals, all are very high now.
They won't survive :( 50% of an airlines cost is fuel and labour - things you quite literally can't change. Safety regs force you to have reserve + contingency fuel and a pilot, copilot and a stewardess per 50 passengers. Those flight attendants even pay for themselves with the overpriced food, drinks, wifi they upsell customers.
Do many people travel without luggage?
More and more. Luggage gets lost and damaged, especially on transfer. You save time at both ends as well. Surprising how little you acutally need and now much you can stuff in a carryon.
We haven't checked luggage in over 10 years. We usually travel with a personal item (backpack) and, if we're flying international, we add a small carry-on which is usually free.
I saw a lot of Norse planes at London Gatwick last week when I was there but unfortunately, they don't fly between Canada and the UK. I do hope to see them survive and thrive and perhaps bring operations up north and more competition to our Canadian legacy airlines. But I would be put off by them charging extra for carry on and a meal on a transatlantic flight. At least our legacy airlines haven't done that...yet.
I hate flying these days. Flying from the US, you are virtually guaranteed high fares and a higher chance your flight is delayed.
One you start cutting corners bad thing will happen
I'm flying from LHR to JFK at Christmas with jetBlue... £475 return! 😁
Low cost fees sometimes aare more than first class
Good report; enjoy 🛬 the flight as long as it lasts, nothing lasts forever. Lot of people are flying thanks to these low cost airlines if governments can subsidies public transportation why not air travel? It has lots of health benefits and world 🗺 is becoming a global village.
It's terrible to subsidize because it's a major polluting industry.
I think the fall of Norwegian low cost long haul routes was more due to act of God (The Pandemic) then a bad business model.
If anything business travel heavy legacy carriers are going to have a tougher time while leisure oriented low airlines thrive. I can see Southwest buying a fleet of widebodies to fly to Europe or even Ryanair experimenting with flights to North America.
The problem is they rely heavily on debts to expand. When repayment started kicking in it put great pressure on the cash flow, and those who can't withstand that go down.
Another problem is capital cost for widebodies are expensive (except fully depreciation old frames, of course), but until now they are the only practical aircraft for mid to long haul. Meanwhile 757 is not very suitable for high utilisation LCCs due to its age and poor seat cost (but fine for leisure carriers, which often sits their aircraft for months).
A321LR/XLR should makes live easier, but don't expect a sudden boom of longhaul LCC anytime soon.
Norwegian were losing money hand over fist way before covid, like a punch drunk fighter it just finally finished them off. Just like Flybe. Neither were sustainable business models.
Mc afee must not want any new neighbors
why? maybe trains and ships are that future which will take you to past