I’m working at a small CNC shop and I love watching your content, even this one. We are actually working on copper pieces too and I’ve learned a bit just from watching you make these parts, you are a master machinist sir, great job!
Your videos are very much appreciated. Thank you so much! I'm a recently educated machinist in Denmark. The education basically just gets you ready to start learning. At least that's the way I see it when I compare my knowledge to yours. Listening to your thought process from videos like this and your last one really helps alot, and the longer and more "boring", the better. The devil is really in the details in our trade, keeping our tools running for longer or faster depending on the need, and hitting those tolerances. So, thank you! And I want to throw a penny in the wishing well for more programming videos in the future. That is where the magic starts in many ways.
I really appreciate your videos and the voiceovers and all the time and dedication you take out of your day with the editing of these videos no small task. Great job
There is something special about copper - Parts machined from it look so cool :) I share your observation (I think you mentioned it in the previous video) that copper is suprisingly hard on tools, almost like abrasive wear.
I don't know the exact process. But I speculate that the copper welds itself to the binder between the carbide particles and then drags the carbide out of the matrix. Sort of similar to dressing a diamond grinding wheel to expose better cutting edges. More of an erosion type of thing. The copper can't really do anything to the carbide itself. Well that's my idea anyway. Now HSS may have its advantages. But I think there is a buildup issue with steel because copper so easily welds itself to steel. Maybe with the correct coatings. But I could not find any data on this.
The surface finish on the initial lathe operation is amazing. I enjoy the machining footage (the beauty of TH-cam is people can skip those sections if they don't want to watch them). Thanks for the videos.
As always, thank you for your dedication in making these videos and sharing your knowledge and experience. I am not a machinist, but have enough exposure to manufacturing to appreciate the quality of the work and still always learn something useful from your videos.
20 years ago I worked with a borehole logging company logging slimline hole to 3+km depth on the Witwatersrand gold fields. 43mm diameter tools that were tough as all hell. And the slimline tools sent data through the cable, oilfield through the mud IIRC. These newer oilfield tools are incredible.
You are truly magnificent, always a pleasure to watch and learn and the amount of your time you kindly take to show us how you set your work load out and explain how you set about your creation because thats what they are. well done and keep the video coming please.
I don't find this boring at all, and it's made particularly interesting due to your commentary. I'm also crazy about the Mazak, and will watch it. Do anything!
I machine a decent bit of copper and brass on 3 axis mills. I use SGS scarb series-43 endmills. They are for non-ferrous materials like aluminum, brass, copper, plastics/composites and work amazingly. Very good tool life milling all of those.
I learned really quick that cheap, slightly bent ⅜" drill bit in a regular drill press turns shiny copper into a gummy mess! Ouch. 😖 EDIT: Please tell me choosing Tapmatic oil was at least the ONE thing I was doing right.
After starting in a job shop, ending up in a place where I'm doing R&D in the same house as the engineers is pretty nice. Definitely makes it easier to influence the engineering toward best machining practices.
Don't ever think this is boring to a person like myself that will never see or do this in person. thanks for you efforts and time. One question. How long does it take to write the program to make this part initially? this does boggle my mind.
The thing about programming and setting up a job. It's kind of a multi step process. So first you come up with some kind of plan. Then you have to see what tooling you will need. Or more importantly what you can get. Once you know that then you can start to actually program in the cam software. You see videos on TH-cam with guys just showing the computer programming part. That doesn't usually take to long. But then you have to set it up with your tooling and see how it runs. Then you make further edits to your program until you get an actual process. In this case I also had to modify some tools. I would say the whole process of acquiring what tooling I could use. then modifying those tools, programming and setup. Plus proving out and modifying the program, took about four days in reality to do. This is because I'm doing everything myself. In a bigger shop you have the tool-crib guy the programmer doing their things. Then the machinist setting up the machine. So people will say they can do it faster. But in reality if you add up all those people's time it takes that long.
@@EdgePrecision all excellent points, my work has that exact process, engineer, programmer, tool crib guy, then machinist like me, well since we have conversational hurcos I took it upon myself to learn it and program new parts myself, it got me a promotion cause I did so well, anyways, Hurco programming is so easy I picked tools, and programmed, and made all the parts within 2 days without scrap, Il sure you know a lot about this since you have mazaks, which are amazing machines, but dear god I hate the programming mazatrol offers it’s so weird😂 we have mazaks with convo at work as well. (Also I only make copper parts copper is annoying to drill or turn, but super easy to mill)
@@EdgePrecision I work at a bigger place and we also do it all ourselves. It takes longer but it is hard to program and create a good process if you don't run it yourself.
I do a lot of work with copper, primarily milling, drilling and tapping. The best approach is fast rpm and heavy feed rates. ie... 16mm end mill, 8000rpm 2mm ruffing depth cut 1000mmpm feed. Drilling for 2-6mm drill between 3000-7000rpm, 1-3mm peck 200-350 mmpm. Tapping, upto 1600rpm for M3 tap, reducing rpm as taps get bigger. Always use peck tap cycle for anything over 2 times depth of tap.
Nice part,,,the pocket reminds me of the battery tray in a renishaw touch probe that takes a 9volt battery....lol. it's just what came to mind..great video! Love the honesty too! Thread mills are sometimes the best thing ever,,,,and sometimes the worst.....those little guys sure put there time in! If you had a carbide blank could you make your own with your grinder? Just a thought.... heck I wish our shop at least had a surface grinder! Haha. Great video once again 👏 👍 👌
Awsome , the majority of ‘normal’ people ( non practical/ non engineers) would never understand the care and attention to detail needed to make a component like this . I’ve had issues before machining aluminium and temperature when measuring tolerances, that’s easy enough just let it cool down to a specific temp . you tapping holes in copper though bit too scary for me to attempt. Hats off to you and people like yourself 🇬🇧👍
Keep producing your videos exactly as you did this one. The setup is what counts the most. The processing is repetitive. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE watching chips fly and a procedure go according to plan, but ! Good setup equals good parts!
I machine strictly only copper at my work, as far as turning, Iv found it nearly impossible to break the chip no matter what I do, you are right, high SFM and lower feed than normal works best, on steel a higher feed can help break chips, copper it get worse. I run from 600-950 SFM and around .010 per rev roughing and about .002 .003 for finishing, semiconductor industry. VBMT insert as well, WNMGs for roughing. Drilling copper is annoying, milling copper though it’s not as finicky, you will also find with copper it will tarnish extremely fast within 10-15 minutes if proper cleaning and handling isn’t done. Also as far as not rolling a bur on copper , your order of operations need to be right, you need to rough and leave a small amount of stock maybe .002, then chamfer, then remachine also surfaces again, then chamfer again for a completely deburred copper part,
In order to tip the B axis at 45 it would require a longer tool. The spindle face would hit the OD of the part. So there are trade offs. Witch would be better? I think the same thing would happen. Because the slot is .501 in width and the ball mill is really .499 there is a very slight gap and the shavings are setting in between the tool and the side wall. This compacts them into the soft copper. This would not be a problem in say steel or aluminum.
The 360 camera has a lot of utility for things like this but I look forward to the next generation with even more resolution and rendering of the details.
This camera films in 5.7 K. But the actual video is only using a portion on that. The freedom to move your framing of the shot is where it really works. But its not good for detail closeups. Its like digital zoom.
The first thing they should do is make every engineer machine a deep pocket with small radius in the corner. It seems to be a very common problem among the "smart people".
Define small corner radius. I am just using the proper tool in my shop. Our company produces tools for themselves, engineers are drawing pockets having tools in mind. So no, I do not know how to make a small radius pocket. If you mean about close to 90 degrees, that I know.
I never get how they can figure out crazy complicated things like boundary layer separation etc........but will argue with you about a extra screw on a joint ....even if it fails because it needed another screw
I ran a Mazak vtc25 3 axis mill with MasterCam Programming. I loved it. I could make just about anything with 3 axis and 3D programming. 👍Copper is nasty stuff to cut. It will reweld chips back to the surface. It's sticky and gooey.
That is just a nice looking piece of copper. You have had me wondering the entire time what type of machine this may go in, alas I am no materials scientist so the end use just has me curious. Looks like a valve body for something, but I cannot remember if there was a feed hole on one end or the other. so that then makes me believe it may be some piece of instrumentation, but what instrument would need all that to be one piece of conductive copper? the mystery goes on and on, but I understand completely the need to refrain from an answer for some machines. thanks for the videos, I enjoy them.
What a job! The finish is beautiful. You briefly talked about the STI (Screw Thread Inserts) threads for the Helicoils. I need to thread mill M4x.7 & M5x.8 blind holes in some AL enclosures that are cast. Can you recommend a thread mill manufacturer that makes the STI mills? Also, share any information about the thread mill program/gauging. Thanks, Peter.
A STI thread mill is the same as a standard thread mill. Use the same one that you would use for that thread. You just program the diameter for the STI thread. You can go to the Helicoil web site and print out the data on the threads.
Can you tell me what copper alloy you are using to make this part. I have an option of materials for a project at this time, at the time of writing this comment, which may change after doing some tests, mostly soldering or brazing, the two choices are UNS C14500 (145-H02, Tellurium) and UNS C11000 (110-H04, Electrolytic Tough Pitch), very few tapped hole which will be tapped by hand but holes machined. In watching the video my guess would be 110-H04.
Great video Peter! Curious what brand tool holders you are using with the smooth silver caps? I’ve been thinking of buying a couple better holders than my ER’s for better milling performance.
I did some copper vape parts out of pure copper years ago, probably the most miserable material i ever worked with, i'd be curious if the ball slot would run better with the b axis tilted, then you would get some sfm, and the chips woul get blasted out of the slots, excellent content as always
Yes that would be good to do. In this case (If I remember) there was some clearance issues on the part, fixture the spindle face the chuck jaws and tool holder. But that said you are correct with a ball mill it is always better to cut up on the radius then on the tip where the surface speed is the lowest.
@@EdgePrecision We rarely run copper. 99% aluminum and common stainless steels. The coolant doesn't turn rancid or stink at all, but the color turns green in machines where copper has been cut. We use Blaser Vasco 6000.
I like seeing pictures of the tools before they actually start cutting. Good idea. :) One question I have. I see the thread gauge is going after first tool run so I'm guessing you don't have any trial cuts when you use a threadmill do you? I'm asking because I usually trial cut frist hole to avoid making an oversize thread. Can you please explain what is your strategy of using a threadmill, please. Thanks
Yes I do. I always program a thread mill using cutter comp. Then I set the tool diameter larger. Run the first hole. Then gauge it and rerun until it gages properly. Then I let all the holes run and gauge the last hole.
31:40 totally agree, if these design engineers actually realised what they are asking for it might make things easier for us at the coalface. They should be made to stand beside the operator and see what their design entails. If its required, then fine, but if its just a cosmetic wish that takes an hour to produce, then bin it.
This whole program fit into the controls memory. Rather than doing a DNC download (running off the computer). I prefer to break a large program into smaller programs. This machine has a folder where you can store/save programs on it's hard drive. Then transfer them into the working memory. This transfer is very fast. So I just move the programs back and forth and run them in sequence. Doing a DNC drip feed is very much like printing a document from your computer. If something goes wrong you have to start from the beginning. When I run smaller programs in the control I can restart and rerun tools. You cant do that with a DNC drip feed. This machine will hold around a 2 megabit program in it's working memory.
This machine does have the gear hobbing option. But I have never had a job to use it. Consequently I don’t have any tooling to demonstrate it. I will think about it but the tooling is expensive. It is possible to cut an involute form using a plain circular type cutter. I would have to think about how to make the came software do that. There is no cycle in Esprit that I know of.
Could you please tell us which program do you do most of your designs in is it fusion 360 and have you ever use design spark mechanical for your projects.
The software I use the most is SpaceClaim. I do have Fusion 360 also. I have never used Spark Mechanical. I have been working on learning Blender, but that's for 3d printing.
No. Im not saying a special coolant would not be beneficial but it just costs to much to change 300 gallons of coolant for one job. In addition I’m not sure what coolant would be better.
I have been using a Insta360 X3. There are two ways to edit. Use their app or the Premiere plug in. I prefer to use their app and output a file from it. Then use that in Premiere. But you can do everything thing in Premiere. Maybe I just don't know the settings well enough in Premiere but it's a little less user friendly to me.
Because tapping copper can be difficult. The holes I tapped were actually thru hole except the ones in the deep c-bores. In those I just started the tap. I finish them to depth after the machining by hand. All the other holes were blind holes.
As a suggestion Peter, why not forget about us, the viewers, think about your videos? If I don't like what I'm seeing, I'll fast forward. If the content is really annoying I can skip the entire video. Full transparency, I've never fast forwarded any of your videos, but I have stopped and restarted a video ... 🙂 Out of interest, you made comment about the designers making things more difficult than they could be, but do you ever pass comments like that down the line to the guys that are providing you with the blank? Thanks for another great video
Peter, do you know if Mazak uses Sandvik's gas spring drawbar in the Capto spindle on this machine or did they design their own? Have you ever had to replace it?
@@EdgePrecision The gas springs are as old as the Capto taper itself, as far as I know. I've replaced a few on old Doosan/Daewoo machines from the early 2000s. There's an o-ring that fails and allows hp coolant to ingress, they've since updated the design. For future reference, MSC sells replacements for about 1/3 the cost of the MTB! Some of them have a retention function built in, so the tool won't fall out if you unclamp it with the B-axis in the vertical position. Must be why yours requires it to be horizontal. Thank you for the excellent content!!
@@EdgePrecision I believe your machine uses the same spindle motor as a VRX (47 hp), we have 9 of them, and it should be belleville washers with a hydraulic cylinder that compresses them to release your collet. Your drawbar pressure should be 4500-5000 psi. If your collet is worn it will drop rapidly on some machines, particularly Mori Seiki NH5000's. Then, your surface finish is going to suffer along with tool life.
I don't know about the milling spindle motor. Mazak rates it at 50 Hp. I looked at the parts manual's cross section drawing of the mill spindle. It shows a belleville spring washer draw bar for both the Cat 50 big plus spindle and the Capto C8 (My spindle). But the draw force is greater on the Capto C8 taper then the Cat 50 taper. I would refer you to Sandviks video. th-cam.com/video/cXtwd3qDvww/w-d-xo.html Because ot the way the taper is on a Capto shank there can be more draw force on the spindle's draw bar. And from personal experience with both of these type of connections the Capto C8 is much better then the Cat 50 big plus taper. It is much more secure of a connection hands down. Especially in heavy roughing cuts with milling face/feed mills and long endmills. for a mill turn machine I would not want any other kind of spindle. This also includes the HSK taper.
@@EdgePrecision Yeah, that's the same spindle. They advertise the VRX with 50 hp, it's a Mitsubishi and it has a PLG in it that's very sensitive. I've had to tune them with an oscilloscope before, PIA. I would like it if we did have the mill turn option on our VRX machines, but they never bothered. We just added a Doosan 5x today that apparently can turn, so I'm quite interested. Best wishes.
someone mind filling me in on what STI threads are? and why they are used in this application? I know they have something to do with helical thread inserts, but thats it...
@@EdgePrecision Ok, so you end up with a steel thread in the copper? Kinda like they do on aluminum engine blocks? I dont love them there, maybe they are better in copper.
Just out of curiosity: how much does machining on a part like this cost? Including all tool preps and programming, it must be quite expensive. Can you indicate a ballpark?
That would be a very expensive part if something were to happen and you scrapped one what would happen then? We all know mistakes can happen in this industry. Being it’s already got so much work done to it would you have to by some material and get it back to that point? Is there extras? Did you make a set up psc, was there a set up psc? Just curious! Working with expensive materials I am always a lil nervous especially when it’s a last operation!
There are a couple of possibilities. One; they would ship the good parts and charge me for the material and labor already in the part when I got it. Often times the customer is ordering parts for their stock and this is possible. Two; They need all the quantity and I would get charged for the material/labor and have to buy more material and remake the part. No there were no setup parts for this job. This isn't to complicated and I didn't feel the need for one. I have done that in the past for other jobs though, with much more expensive material and operations in them, before I got them.
@@EdgePrecision You're a whiz, that's why. I work in a large shop, we have probably 200+ nc machines, and I don't know if our toolmakers could whip up this part as you have. I maintain the equipment, but I know what you have to know to accomplish the things you do. Very impressive.
That is possible but I like to do it the way I show in this video. The probing would not save the time it takes to set it up on five parts. This machine does not have dynamic work offsets so the probe cant adjust for runout. So I would still have to do that manually. So the Haimer works just as good.
Tenths of degrees .36 arcseconds that's crazy. You might be able to see that with a 0.0002 in ten inch precision level good to around 4 arcseconds. If you really use your imagination. And those levels will drive you crazy if you make the mistake of resting a hand on the machine your trying to level just that will move the bubble.
I can't really go into cost. My customer would not like it. Suffice it to say this is an expensive part. But It's just part of a assembly of two pieces. The other part of the assembly is Inconel. even more expensive. I'm not doing that part.
Yes. All milled parts have milling marks. For some reason in copper the way the light highlights the finish they show up on camera a lot more than other materials. But believe me those surfaces are quite smooth.
Mazatrol is very good for 2 axis turning work. But I don't care for it to do milling. The simulation is not as good as some cam software's. And for everything it doesn't take into account the stock or remaining stock in turning and milling as well as cam software. This creates unwanted air cuts in some situations. Maybe on the newer versions that I have not used it can, I don't know. But I don't think it can do the more modern machining strategies. Some of what I'm using in this video. There is a place for both. If I was to do just generic turning on a lathe with a Mazatrol control. I would never run a cam program on that machine. For that you are correct.
I’m working at a small CNC shop and I love watching your content, even this one. We are actually working on copper pieces too and I’ve learned a bit just from watching you make these parts, you are a master machinist sir, great job!
Your videos are very much appreciated. Thank you so much!
I'm a recently educated machinist in Denmark. The education basically just gets you ready to start learning. At least that's the way I see it when I compare my knowledge to yours.
Listening to your thought process from videos like this and your last one really helps alot, and the longer and more "boring", the better.
The devil is really in the details in our trade, keeping our tools running for longer or faster depending on the need, and hitting those tolerances.
So, thank you! And I want to throw a penny in the wishing well for more programming videos in the future. That is where the magic starts in many ways.
I really appreciate your videos and the voiceovers and all the time and dedication you take out of your day with the editing of these videos no small task. Great job
There is something special about copper - Parts machined from it look so cool :)
I share your observation (I think you mentioned it in the previous video) that copper is suprisingly hard on tools, almost like abrasive wear.
I don't know the exact process. But I speculate that the copper welds itself to the binder between the carbide particles and then drags the carbide out of the matrix. Sort of similar to dressing a diamond grinding wheel to expose better cutting edges. More of an erosion type of thing. The copper can't really do anything to the carbide itself. Well that's my idea anyway. Now HSS may have its advantages. But I think there is a buildup issue with steel because copper so easily welds itself to steel. Maybe with the correct coatings. But I could not find any data on this.
@@EdgePrecision as a variant of the cubic boron nitride plate.
@@hibahprice6887 what about cubic boron nitride? That piqued my interest but you lost me at the same time
The surface finish on the initial lathe operation is amazing. I enjoy the machining footage (the beauty of TH-cam is people can skip those sections if they don't want to watch them). Thanks for the videos.
Beautiful work as usual Peter, thanks for sharing!
As always, thank you for your dedication in making these videos and sharing your knowledge and experience. I am not a machinist, but have enough exposure to manufacturing to appreciate the quality of the work and still always learn something useful from your videos.
Great video, cool part, awesome machining! Couldn’t ask for more. Thanks Peter
Was planning to watch a movie on this friday night, but saw this upload and thought even better.
Watching it is mesmerizing. You post it, we'll watch it.
Dad does it again. Incredible talent. I love copper to machine.
good job peter..thanks for your time
i enjoy watching competent work and your explanations are easy for me to understand. it is very satisfying sir. thank you
Great video Peter as always!!!
Awesome work Peter! keep the quality content coming
Another oil bore sensor part? I'm honestly fascinated by the tech of something complicated that can survive in that environment.
20 years ago I worked with a borehole logging company logging slimline hole to 3+km depth on the Witwatersrand gold fields. 43mm diameter tools that were tough as all hell. And the slimline tools sent data through the cable, oilfield through the mud IIRC. These newer oilfield tools are incredible.
You are truly magnificent, always a pleasure to watch and learn and the amount of your time you kindly take to show us how you set your work load out and explain how you set about your creation because thats what they are. well done and keep the video coming please.
wow, it is an amazing start to finish on the machine including deburred !!!
Looks integrate and amazing.
very cool part, great work sir
Can't amagine what a part like the would cost. Astronomical amount of work.
I don't find this boring at all, and it's made particularly interesting due to your commentary. I'm also crazy about the Mazak, and will watch it. Do anything!
thanks a million times for the video!
I machine a decent bit of copper and brass on 3 axis mills. I use SGS scarb series-43 endmills. They are for non-ferrous materials like aluminum, brass, copper, plastics/composites and work amazingly. Very good tool life milling all of those.
On this material I'm not really having any trouble with standard type of carbide endmills.
I learned really quick that cheap, slightly bent ⅜" drill bit in a regular drill press turns shiny copper into a gummy mess! Ouch. 😖 EDIT: Please tell me choosing Tapmatic oil was at least the ONE thing I was doing right.
Awesome work to take a jewel out the machine.
After starting in a job shop, ending up in a place where I'm doing R&D in the same house as the engineers is pretty nice. Definitely makes it easier to influence the engineering toward best machining practices.
Some kind of a housing for a submersible pump? Brilliant video, thanks!
Fascinating!!! Awesome!!!!
This is art
You are a seriously clever guy.
Great detail.
Don't ever think this is boring to a person like myself that will never see or do this in person. thanks for you efforts and time. One question. How long does it take to write the program to make this part initially? this does boggle my mind.
The thing about programming and setting up a job. It's kind of a multi step process. So first you come up with some kind of plan. Then you have to see what tooling you will need. Or more importantly what you can get. Once you know that then you can start to actually program in the cam software. You see videos on TH-cam with guys just showing the computer programming part. That doesn't usually take to long. But then you have to set it up with your tooling and see how it runs. Then you make further edits to your program until you get an actual process. In this case I also had to modify some tools. I would say the whole process of acquiring what tooling I could use. then modifying those tools, programming and setup. Plus proving out and modifying the program, took about four days in reality to do. This is because I'm doing everything myself. In a bigger shop you have the tool-crib guy the programmer doing their things. Then the machinist setting up the machine. So people will say they can do it faster. But in reality if you add up all those people's time it takes that long.
@@EdgePrecision Excellent points!
@@EdgePrecision all excellent points, my work has that exact process, engineer, programmer, tool crib guy, then machinist like me, well since we have conversational hurcos I took it upon myself to learn it and program new parts myself, it got me a promotion cause I did so well, anyways, Hurco programming is so easy I picked tools, and programmed, and made all the parts within 2 days without scrap, Il sure you know a lot about this since you have mazaks, which are amazing machines, but dear god I hate the programming mazatrol offers it’s so weird😂 we have mazaks with convo at work as well. (Also I only make copper parts copper is annoying to drill or turn, but super easy to mill)
@@EdgePrecision I work at a bigger place and we also do it all ourselves. It takes longer but it is hard to program and create a good process if you don't run it yourself.
360 cam looks like it works Great for this type footage
Beatifull job man
Impressive!!!
Excellent...
I dont think I saw much of copper machining on YT, very interesting topic Peter.
I do a lot of work with copper, primarily milling, drilling and tapping. The best approach is fast rpm and heavy feed rates. ie... 16mm end mill, 8000rpm 2mm ruffing depth cut 1000mmpm feed. Drilling for 2-6mm drill between 3000-7000rpm, 1-3mm peck 200-350 mmpm. Tapping, upto 1600rpm for M3 tap, reducing rpm as taps get bigger. Always use peck tap cycle for anything over 2 times depth of tap.
Nice part,,,the pocket reminds me of the battery tray in a renishaw touch probe that takes a 9volt battery....lol. it's just what came to mind..great video! Love the honesty too! Thread mills are sometimes the best thing ever,,,,and sometimes the worst.....those little guys sure put there time in! If you had a carbide blank could you make your own with your grinder? Just a thought.... heck I wish our shop at least had a surface grinder! Haha. Great video once again 👏 👍 👌
I have made thread mills before. But it's more economical to just buy them.
Awsome , the majority of ‘normal’ people ( non practical/ non engineers) would never understand the care and attention to detail needed to make a component like this . I’ve had issues before machining aluminium and temperature when measuring tolerances, that’s easy enough just let it cool down to a specific temp . you tapping holes in copper though bit too scary for me to attempt. Hats off to you and people like yourself 🇬🇧👍
Keep producing your videos exactly as you did this one. The setup is what counts the most. The processing is repetitive. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE watching chips fly and a procedure go according to plan, but ! Good setup equals good parts!
Setup is crucial to quality parts.
I machine strictly only copper at my work, as far as turning, Iv found it nearly impossible to break the chip no matter what I do, you are right, high SFM and lower feed than normal works best, on steel a higher feed can help break chips, copper it get worse. I run from 600-950 SFM and around .010 per rev roughing and about .002 .003 for finishing, semiconductor industry. VBMT insert as well, WNMGs for roughing. Drilling copper is annoying, milling copper though it’s not as finicky, you will also find with copper it will tarnish extremely fast within 10-15 minutes if proper cleaning and handling isn’t done. Also as far as not rolling a bur on copper , your order of operations need to be right, you need to rough and leave a small amount of stock maybe .002, then chamfer, then remachine also surfaces again, then chamfer again for a completely deburred copper part,
Machinists get to see the true beauty of copper before our oxygen rich atmosphere robs it.
*protects
Thanks man
I enjoy two things: Freshly machined copper and people who are particularly good at what they do.
Fresh copper does look pretty.
Peter @27:00 on the 1/2" ball nose , if you have the space tilt the spindle to 45deg when cutting the final form of the slot.
In order to tip the B axis at 45 it would require a longer tool. The spindle face would hit the OD of the part. So there are trade offs. Witch would be better? I think the same thing would happen. Because the slot is .501 in width and the ball mill is really .499 there is a very slight gap and the shavings are setting in between the tool and the side wall. This compacts them into the soft copper. This would not be a problem in say steel or aluminum.
@@EdgePrecision could be so I was just thinking of trying to remove the near zero surface footage at the centre of the cutter.
The shop owner knows you are his top cnc machinist, this is a fact :)
Seeing as I work for myself. I guess that would be true.
Definitely not boring. Fascinating would be a better word.
copper sure has a nice look after machining
That's quite the rocket part.
Wow nice editing with the 360 cam!
Interesting part.
The 360 camera has a lot of utility for things like this but I look forward to the next generation with even more resolution and rendering of the details.
This camera films in 5.7 K. But the actual video is only using a portion on that. The freedom to move your framing of the shot is where it really works. But its not good for detail closeups. Its like digital zoom.
Hi Peter, I use a VCGX ( AL) rather than a VBMT for parts like these. Works well.
omg, I would love to have a de-burr guy
I don’t even want to know how much this piece of material would cost lol. Great work
I'd watch the entire 4 1/2 hour video of this.
The first thing they should do is make every engineer machine a deep pocket with small radius in the corner. It seems to be a very common problem among the "smart people".
Smart doesn't mean they know about CNC machining. I agree that engineers who design such parts should take a course in machining issues.
Define small corner radius. I am just using the proper tool in my shop. Our company produces tools for themselves, engineers are drawing pockets having tools in mind. So no, I do not know how to make a small radius pocket. If you mean about close to 90 degrees, that I know.
I never get how they can figure out crazy complicated things like boundary layer separation etc........but will argue with you about a extra screw on a joint ....even if it fails because it needed another screw
I ran a Mazak vtc25 3 axis mill with MasterCam Programming. I loved it. I could make just about anything with 3 axis and 3D programming. 👍Copper is nasty stuff to cut. It will reweld chips back to the surface. It's sticky and gooey.
That is just a nice looking piece of copper. You have had me wondering the entire time what type of machine this may go in, alas I am no materials scientist so the end use just has me curious. Looks like a valve body for something, but I cannot remember if there was a feed hole on one end or the other. so that then makes me believe it may be some piece of instrumentation, but what instrument would need all that to be one piece of conductive copper? the mystery goes on and on, but I understand completely the need to refrain from an answer for some machines.
thanks for the videos, I enjoy them.
Im not sure what this part does. It may be copper for heat sinking purposes.
What a job! The finish is beautiful. You briefly talked about the STI (Screw Thread Inserts) threads for the Helicoils. I need to thread mill M4x.7 & M5x.8 blind holes in some AL enclosures that are cast. Can you recommend a thread mill manufacturer that makes the STI mills? Also, share any information about the thread mill program/gauging. Thanks, Peter.
A STI thread mill is the same as a standard thread mill. Use the same one that you would use for that thread. You just program the diameter for the STI thread. You can go to the Helicoil web site and print out the data on the threads.
It looks great finished.
Does that 4 1/2hr runtime mean 2 or 3 parts per day for this job?
Two parts per day.
@@EdgePrecision Still a good long days work by the time you get going each day.
Can you tell me what copper alloy you are using to make this part. I have an option of materials for a project at this time, at the time of writing this comment, which may change after doing some tests, mostly soldering or brazing, the two choices are UNS C14500 (145-H02, Tellurium) and UNS C11000 (110-H04, Electrolytic Tough Pitch), very few tapped hole which will be tapped by hand but holes machined. In watching the video my guess would be 110-H04.
Great video Peter! Curious what brand tool holders you are using with the smooth silver caps? I’ve been thinking of buying a couple better holders than my ER’s for better milling performance.
These tool holders are Kiser Big Diashowa. The best tool holders I have used. But also the most expensive.
I did some copper vape parts out of pure copper years ago, probably the most miserable material i ever worked with, i'd be curious if the ball slot would run better with the b axis tilted, then you would get some sfm, and the chips woul get blasted out of the slots, excellent content as always
Yes that would be good to do. In this case (If I remember) there was some clearance issues on the part, fixture the spindle face the chuck jaws and tool holder. But that said you are correct with a ball mill it is always better to cut up on the radius then on the tip where the surface speed is the lowest.
Did you test the program on an a cheaper material blank first or straight into the expensive copper?
No there was no setup part.
Awesome work. Hopefully your coolant won't turn nasty because of the material. All the best.
If anything copper would tend to kill any bacteria in the coolant. That said I have never had a problem with this.
@@EdgePrecision We rarely run copper. 99% aluminum and common stainless steels. The coolant doesn't turn rancid or stink at all, but the color turns green in machines where copper has been cut. We use Blaser Vasco 6000.
I like seeing pictures of the tools before they actually start cutting. Good idea. :) One question I have. I see the thread gauge is going after first tool run so I'm guessing you don't have any trial cuts when you use a threadmill do you? I'm asking because I usually trial cut frist hole to avoid making an oversize thread. Can you please explain what is your strategy of using a threadmill, please. Thanks
Yes I do. I always program a thread mill using cutter comp. Then I set the tool diameter larger. Run the first hole. Then gauge it and rerun until it gages properly. Then I let all the holes run and gauge the last hole.
Вот это станки!!!
31:40 totally agree, if these design engineers actually realised what they are asking for it might make things easier for us at the coalface. They should be made to stand beside the operator and see what their design entails. If its required, then fine, but if its just a cosmetic wish that takes an hour to produce, then bin it.
What type of coolant are you using and what do you keep you concentration at?
I use QualiChem Extreme Cut 250C at 11% concentration on the refractometer.
I would think the program size is very large do to the age of your machine is space a problem or can you use a computer as a buffer
This whole program fit into the controls memory. Rather than doing a DNC download (running off the computer). I prefer to break a large program into smaller programs. This machine has a folder where you can store/save programs on it's hard drive. Then transfer them into the working memory. This transfer is very fast. So I just move the programs back and forth and run them in sequence. Doing a DNC drip feed is very much like printing a document from your computer. If something goes wrong you have to start from the beginning. When I run smaller programs in the control I can restart and rerun tools. You cant do that with a DNC drip feed. This machine will hold around a 2 megabit program in it's working memory.
Hi Peter , I have never seen you cutting gears on this machine ,can you do a video on gear skiving, thanks 😊
This machine does have the gear hobbing option. But I have never had a job to use it. Consequently I don’t have any tooling to demonstrate it. I will think about it but the tooling is expensive. It is possible to cut an involute form using a plain circular type cutter. I would have to think about how to make the came software do that. There is no cycle in Esprit that I know of.
yeah. chip drag is always the problem on this sticky stuff.
First I recall having heard you mention Fusion360. I imagine you couldn't trial Espirit 🙂 EDIT: oops, apparently you can !
Could you please tell us which program do you do most of your designs in is it fusion 360 and have you ever use design spark mechanical for your projects.
The software I use the most is SpaceClaim. I do have Fusion 360 also. I have never used Spark Mechanical. I have been working on learning Blender, but that's for 3d printing.
Live to know in what kind of machine this part fits. Aerospace?
No it's not aerospace.
I would love to have one as a paperweight
Copper is surprisingly heavy. When lifting the part you can really feel the weight difference from say steel.
Do you use different coolant for copper? Sure seemed to go well from all the complaints machining copper I've heard elsewhere.
No. Im not saying a special coolant would not be beneficial but it just costs to much to change 300 gallons of coolant for one job. In addition I’m not sure what coolant would be better.
What camera are you using for that 360 footage? and what software do you use to choose which direction to show from the camera?
I have been using a Insta360 X3. There are two ways to edit. Use their app or the Premiere plug in. I prefer to use their app and output a file from it. Then use that in Premiere. But you can do everything thing in Premiere. Maybe I just don't know the settings well enough in Premiere but it's a little less user friendly to me.
Why did you thread mill some threads and tap others? I haven’t yet tried thread milling but want to. It seems safer than tapping…?
Because tapping copper can be difficult. The holes I tapped were actually thru hole except the ones in the deep c-bores. In those I just started the tap. I finish them to depth after the machining by hand. All the other holes were blind holes.
@@EdgePrecision Thx! I really like your content btw, there is very little professional practical cnc content out there.
As a suggestion Peter, why not forget about us, the viewers, think about your videos?
If I don't like what I'm seeing, I'll fast forward. If the content is really annoying I can skip the entire video. Full transparency, I've never fast forwarded any of your videos, but I have stopped and restarted a video ... 🙂
Out of interest, you made comment about the designers making things more difficult than they could be, but do you ever pass comments like that down the line to the guys that are providing you with the blank?
Thanks for another great video
Peter, do you know if Mazak uses Sandvik's gas spring drawbar in the Capto spindle on this machine or did they design their own? Have you ever had to replace it?
I think this machine is to old for that. I have never had trouble with it. But also I have never measured the retention force.
@@EdgePrecision The gas springs are as old as the Capto taper itself, as far as I know. I've replaced a few on old Doosan/Daewoo machines from the early 2000s. There's an o-ring that fails and allows hp coolant to ingress, they've since updated the design. For future reference, MSC sells replacements for about 1/3 the cost of the MTB! Some of them have a retention function built in, so the tool won't fall out if you unclamp it with the B-axis in the vertical position. Must be why yours requires it to be horizontal. Thank you for the excellent content!!
@@EdgePrecision I believe your machine uses the same spindle motor as a VRX (47 hp), we have 9 of them, and it should be belleville washers with a hydraulic cylinder that compresses them to release your collet.
Your drawbar pressure should be 4500-5000 psi. If your collet is worn it will drop rapidly on some machines, particularly Mori Seiki NH5000's.
Then, your surface finish is going to suffer along with tool life.
I don't know about the milling spindle motor. Mazak rates it at 50 Hp. I looked at the parts manual's cross section drawing of the mill spindle. It shows a belleville spring washer draw bar for both the Cat 50 big plus spindle and the Capto C8 (My spindle). But the draw force is greater on the Capto C8 taper then the Cat 50 taper. I would refer you to Sandviks video. th-cam.com/video/cXtwd3qDvww/w-d-xo.html Because ot the way the taper is on a Capto shank there can be more draw force on the spindle's draw bar. And from personal experience with both of these type of connections the Capto C8 is much better then the Cat 50 big plus taper. It is much more secure of a connection hands down. Especially in heavy roughing cuts with milling face/feed mills and long endmills. for a mill turn machine I would not want any other kind of spindle. This also includes the HSK taper.
@@EdgePrecision Yeah, that's the same spindle. They advertise the VRX with 50 hp, it's a Mitsubishi and it has a PLG in it that's very sensitive. I've had to tune them with an oscilloscope before, PIA. I would like it if we did have the mill turn option on our VRX machines, but they never bothered. We just added a Doosan 5x today that apparently can turn, so I'm quite interested. Best wishes.
someone mind filling me in on what STI threads are? and why they are used in this application? I know they have something to do with helical thread inserts, but thats it...
Spiral thread inserts. Or what's better known as Helicoil.
@@EdgePrecision Ok, so you end up with a steel thread in the copper? Kinda like they do on aluminum engine blocks? I dont love them there, maybe they are better in copper.
Just out of curiosity: how much does machining on a part like this cost? Including all tool preps and programming, it must be quite expensive. Can you indicate a ballpark?
Sorry I can't get into the pricing of parts. My customer would not want that. Suffice it to say the price is working out good.
thats cool. keep the videos coming, ty to the customer for making this video possible.
Can you tell me what kinda part is that
Sorry no. Because I don't really know what it does.
Peter, do you ever have issues with your post processor?
For Esprit?
what is the part for?
I don't know.
That would be a very expensive part if something were to happen and you scrapped one what would happen then? We all know mistakes can happen in this industry. Being it’s already got so much work done to it would you have to by some material and get it back to that point? Is there extras? Did you make a set up psc, was there a set up psc? Just curious! Working with expensive materials I am always a lil nervous especially when it’s a last operation!
There are a couple of possibilities. One; they would ship the good parts and charge me for the material and labor already in the part when I got it. Often times the customer is ordering parts for their stock and this is possible. Two; They need all the quantity and I would get charged for the material/labor and have to buy more material and remake the part. No there were no setup parts for this job. This isn't to complicated and I didn't feel the need for one. I have done that in the past for other jobs though, with much more expensive material and operations in them, before I got them.
@@EdgePrecision You're a whiz, that's why. I work in a large shop, we have probably 200+ nc machines, and I don't know if our toolmakers could whip up this part as you have. I maintain the equipment, but I know what you have to know to accomplish the things you do. Very impressive.
Soon to have blue coolant
I'm surprised there isn't a probe cycle to teach the C zero from a flat, notch or hole.
That is possible but I like to do it the way I show in this video. The probing would not save the time it takes to set it up on five parts. This machine does not have dynamic work offsets so the probe cant adjust for runout. So I would still have to do that manually. So the Haimer works just as good.
Looks stressful
Tenths of degrees .36 arcseconds that's crazy. You might be able to see that with a 0.0002 in ten inch precision level good to around 4 arcseconds. If you really use your imagination. And those levels will drive you crazy if you make the mistake of resting a hand on the machine your trying to level just that will move the bubble.
Jeez, how much would such part cost?
I can't really go into cost. My customer would not like it. Suffice it to say this is an expensive part. But It's just part of a assembly of two pieces. The other part of the assembly is Inconel. even more expensive. I'm not doing that part.
@@EdgePrecision Thank you for taking the time to respond.
A complicated copper part. Electrical component of some sort?
I think they are using copper for its heat sinking ability. But I’m not sure.
Copper becomes as easy to machine as aluminium if you treat it right. ALWAYS use sharp tools.
And would the customer be satisfied with such obvious milling marks?
Yes. All milled parts have milling marks. For some reason in copper the way the light highlights the finish they show up on camera a lot more than other materials. But believe me those surfaces are quite smooth.
Something tells me that your contracts for CNC work is based on your knowledge. Years of knowledge.
damn
those saudis have money $$$
That's some expensive stock :)
Don't have much experience with copper, other than sharper tools are better! ^^
Cam's a waste a money when you got Mazatrol.
Mazatrol is very good for 2 axis turning work. But I don't care for it to do milling. The simulation is not as good as some cam software's. And for everything it doesn't take into account the stock or remaining stock in turning and milling as well as cam software. This creates unwanted air cuts in some situations. Maybe on the newer versions that I have not used it can, I don't know. But I don't think it can do the more modern machining strategies. Some of what I'm using in this video. There is a place for both. If I was to do just generic turning on a lathe with a Mazatrol control. I would never run a cam program on that machine. For that you are correct.