I love that you dont mess around with a time consuming intro! You just plainly state, "this is the topic." Then you... just begin! You're a breath of fresh air
I would like to add my thanks for making this series and also for choosing to use your own voice to narrate rather than an artificial voice. I didn't do very well trying to count propeller beats. 😢 Mark from Melbourne Australia
Sonar bouy was invented by Bell Laboratories and their subsidiary Western Electric. The telephone company was the leader in audio research. Too bad it had to be kept secret from the public.
THE EVOLUTION OF THE SONOBUOY FROM WORLD WAR II TO THE COLD WAR by Roger A. Holler. If you search and download this, it may be of interest. Prior to the sonobuoy, Britain employed hydrophones in WW1. Holler's paper states, "April 1916, the German U-boat UC-3 was the first submarine to be detected by a hydrophone and sunk as a result". Although, other sources indicate there is some debate as to whether UC-3 was detected by hydrophone, and sunk on 23 April 1916 or mined and sunk on 27 May 1916.
Sonoboys in WW2 ! Via this series I have for the first time heard, that electronic listening devices were used by dropping them from aircrafts. Very much thanks for this.
OMG heavy flash backs👀 The last clip also had good audio of the diesel engines running as well. To tie this audio clip to the discussion on the snorkel video, if the waves were high enough, you would be able to hear the flapper valve slamming shut as the waves pass over the snorkel. It sounds a little like someone hitting a metal trash can with a baseball bat.
Causing a sharp decrease in air pressure in the sub since the diesel engine continued to suck air out of the sub's interior as it ran giving the crew short ear surprises of the vacuum variety.
The American Mk24 “Mine” acoustic torpedo entered service in March 1943. The Mk27 torpedo was a submarine launched version. Germany deployed acoustic homing torpedos in August 1943. The American equivalent was the Mk28 torpedo which entered service in 1944.
The success of the acoustic torpedo is what ended the U-boat war of the north Atlantic. By May, 1943 convoys began shipping maximum D-Day supplies without fear of being sunk before they got to England.
@@b43xoitnyone who has seen "Hunt For Red October" probably knows what you mean by passive (vs. active) sonar. Anyone who hasn't seen Red October since its release 33 years ago probably has no interest in submarines whatsoever. Or has seen "Das Boot" to its bitter end and could not take another "untersee" adventure.
WW2 non snorkel diesel subs from most of the navies had the "1 hour rule": make turns for about 2 kts for max time before the battery dies or flank bell and the battery is dead in one hour, assuming a fully charged battery when the sub dives. Mind you this is a ball park figure but is a good guide to start the stop watch when the sub dives and note it's speeds, another consideration is how fast the props turn and their design, the faster they turn the more noise they make and easier to detect. German subs electric motors were direct drive, no reduction gears which makes theier drive line quieter but not their props. Every propeller, no matter how well designed and milled, has one blade that makes more sound and this enables you to "turn count" it by the beat noise it makes. A quick tip here, most U boats had 3 bladed props so instead of counting each beat and then the total beats for 15 seconds count them: 1 chic-ken- sh*t, chic-ken-sh*t, etc It's easier to keep of the chic-ken-sh*t's. I'll let you ponder yourselves term we used for 4 bladed props ( it's probably not very pc)! The RPM/ minute for the Fleet boats is not correct if my memory is right. With the sonobuoys in a cross pattern, with one in the middle, you can now start a plot on approx. course and correct speed, from the turn count, and this may let you put a weapon in the water and sink the U boat.
The missus and I heard a propeller aircraft fly overhead and listened to the beat. It sounded like a truck. I dived underwater recently near a guy doing freestyle swimming. I could hear his loud kicks. Sound is interesting. Out in the bush talking can be heard a long way off.
Re the chart of US submarine classes, the Gato class was after the Tambor and before the Balao classes. Also, some boats of the Tench class - next after the Balao class - served in WW2.
Counting propeller pulses like a nurse with a stop watch is so primitive. It looks like they were in such a wartime hurry they omitted to make electronic frequency counters to just read out the submarine speed. Even then phone companies knew all about that.
Tube counters were large 19” wide by 12” high heavy boxes. While aircraft electronics are packaged differently it still is a heavy piece of equipment. Also the display was not easy to read.
Sonarbuoys very much in the news today as the Titanic submarine loss is headline news. Banging noises every 30 mins are being picked up by a P3 Orion aircraft. Experts say its a sign the sub is likely on the surface. Amazingly the sub has no external distress pinger. No Black BOX thingy. It seems to have suffered a power loss.
I wonder if it would have been technically feasible to build a system that would make rapid adjustments to buoyancy, quietly, to maintain depth within a narrow range. I'm thinking If the sub is floating up, compress some air from the top of a ballast tank into a bottle. The bottom of the tank could be open to the sea, so some seawater would be drawn in. If the boat is sinking, release some air into the ballast tank to start pushing out some of the water. Some kind of electrical or electromechanical integrator or differentiator could be used to calculate the qty of air to move with each adjustment. Of course, pumping water instead of air would be more precise and have a quicker effect, but building a water pump that is quiet enough could be difficult.
G'day, Yay Team ! Um, this is a pretty small Nit to pick upon, but you cite a Nautical Mile as being 1.15 x the length of a Statute mile... As a budding Sailor I was given the impression that a Nautical Mile was 1 & 1/8ths of a Statute Mile, or 1.125 times the length - so I pricked up my ears at your figure. So I ran it through the Calculator, and we're both wrong. 2,000 Yards of a Nautical Mile Divided by the 1,760 Yards of a Statute Mile ; is 1.1363. So, not 15% bigger, and not One & an Eighth, either ; but 13.6% bigger..., when one actually bothers to check ! Such is life, Have a good one... Stay safe. ;-p Ciao !
Multiplying by 4 and dividing by 20 is really the same thing as multiplying by 2 and dividing by 10. Much easier to do the latter in your head. Same process as calculating an appropriate tip.
@@kenneth9874 If you have any other painfully obvious statements you feel compelled to share, feel free to comment. I'm already aware that water is wet, but there may be some other facts I hadn't noticed. :)
Curious to know why there is only one beat per prop rev. Also wonder why having two props would not cause multiple beats. You would think four blade props would be different beat per rev than 3 blade. Interesting.
You are hearing the cavitation of the individual blades and the imperfections in the shaft, the blade rate x number of blades = shaft rate which you are counting. Modern sonobouys if getting a good reading will show a clear blade rate, shaft rate, gear ratios if any engine firing rates if diesels ect. If using multiple shafts you might see them or they could be in exact rhythm though in a turn you will likely see the rates differ. Through rising doppler or falling doppler rates and multiple sonobouys you can guestemate a possible course. While things have improved the basics remain the same.
I was under the impression that WWII submarines, at least the U.S. models, did not have a direct connection between the diesel engines and the propellers, and that the propellers were always turned by electric motors whether they were drawing power from the batteries or directly from the generators when running on the surface. Is that correct, or was there a direct shaft from the diesel to the propeller? How about German U-boats?
For fleet type subs, yes, the generators (there are usually 4 or 5) have fairly complicated switching to a number of output busses. One (or maybe two, I forget) of the busses go to the electric drive motors. The motors go to mechanical reduction gearing, and the output of that goes to the prop. The generator output can also be switched to charge the batteries, or to run the electrical subsystems in the sub, like lights, blowers, radios, sonar, etc. There is also a big air compressor for a number of important uses. So there is no direct connection from the diesel engines to the props, it is an electrical connection. I *think* R and S type subs were the same sort of design, but I don't actually know for sure if that is true.
WW2 subs work exactly like modern hybrid automobiles. Although modern computers and electronics make the system much more efficient, the principle is exactly the same.
@@lwilton Thanks, that has always been my understanding. The way things were worded in the video (just more simply) made me question that, so I wanted to confirm.
@@roberthutchins1507 I've owned 4 hybrid cars, and they all had a conventional mechanical drivetrain that was merely supplemented by a electric motors, not replaced by them. You disagree with @lwilton?
@@gort8203 I'm not a German submarine expert. Having said that, it's my understanding that German subs used motor/ generator sets to conserve strategic materials (coper), and to save weight and space inside the sub. When the diesel engines are running, they turn both the props and the motor/generators to produce electricity. When the diesels aren't running, the batteries power the motor/generators to turn the props. Yes I believe most if not all American subs were strictly diesel electric drives, they had both generators and electric motors. This is a heavier and larger system, but it is also more efficient, which was important for Pacific Ocean operations.
At last - defaulting to the proper pronunciation of buoy. It's a weird word - how it can be mangled into 'boo-ee' is weirder still. And, while I'm at it.......what road does Chuck Berry get his kicks on? Rout 66 or Route 66?
@@kiereluurs1243 I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings to the Nederlands but the number of words that have been adopted by English speakers from Dutch/Flemish is...............tiny. And if this was an exception....why did it skip straight past the UK and onto the US? Surely you'd have to admit that what is spoken in the USA is a derivation of English, which was then isolated from the parent tongue for 200 years. You know - like what happened in South Africa or Canada. My second example, Route 66, demonstrates how quickly pronunciation can change - the change from 'root' to 'rout' started in the 1970's or 80's (possibly as Chuck Berry's fame declined).
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I love that you dont mess around with a time consuming intro! You just plainly state, "this is the topic." Then you... just begin! You're a breath of fresh air
Great comment. This intro business is insane. Gotta skip to around 3min to start the video. 💯
Just wanted to say thanks! This series has been EXCELLENT. Very insightful on airborne ASW in World War 2.
I've personally learned a great deal about the subject from this series.
I would like to add my thanks for making this series and also for choosing to use your own voice to narrate rather than an artificial voice. I didn't do very well trying to count propeller beats. 😢
Mark from Melbourne Australia
I am surprised at how well developed the sonar bouy system is in 1944. Incredibly advanced
Sonar bouy was invented by Bell Laboratories and their subsidiary Western Electric. The telephone company was the leader in audio research. Too bad it had to be kept secret from the public.
@@dfirth224 But not so secret that the allied armed forces didn't get them!
These were passive listening devices.
THE EVOLUTION OF THE SONOBUOY FROM WORLD WAR II TO THE COLD WAR by Roger A. Holler. If you search and download this, it may be of interest. Prior to the sonobuoy, Britain employed hydrophones in WW1. Holler's paper states, "April 1916, the German U-boat UC-3 was the first submarine to be detected by a hydrophone and sunk as a result". Although, other sources indicate there is some debate as to whether UC-3 was detected by hydrophone, and sunk on 23 April 1916 or mined and sunk on 27 May 1916.
Sonoboys in WW2 ! Via this series I have for the first time heard, that electronic listening devices were used by dropping them from aircrafts. Very much thanks for this.
I found this channel through ~The Algorithm~ over the weekend and have voraciously consumed as much as I can. keep up the great work!
The amount of research this guy does is amazing. Keep it up!
Yet another home run in this series. Great vid, as always WWII USB.
OMG heavy flash backs👀 The last clip also had good audio of the diesel engines running as well. To tie this audio clip to the discussion on the snorkel video, if the waves were high enough, you would be able to hear the flapper valve slamming shut as the waves pass over the snorkel. It sounds a little like someone hitting a metal trash can with a baseball bat.
Causing a sharp decrease in air pressure in the sub since the diesel engine continued to suck air out of the sub's interior as it ran giving the crew short ear surprises of the vacuum variety.
Great series! I had always thought sonar buoys and acoustic homing torpedos didn't come into existence until the early cold war about 1950.
The American Mk24 “Mine” acoustic torpedo entered service in March 1943. The Mk27 torpedo was a submarine launched version.
Germany deployed acoustic homing torpedos in August 1943. The American equivalent was the Mk28 torpedo which entered service in 1944.
The success of the acoustic torpedo is what ended the U-boat war of the north Atlantic. By May, 1943 convoys began shipping maximum D-Day supplies without fear of being sunk before they got to England.
These were passive listening devices.
@@b43xoitnyone who has seen "Hunt For Red October" probably knows what you mean by passive (vs. active) sonar. Anyone who hasn't seen Red October since its release 33 years ago probably has no interest in submarines whatsoever. Or has seen "Das Boot" to its bitter end and could not take another "untersee" adventure.
@@jefferyroy2566 Could be.
You keep getting better and better. Great stuff.
WW2 non snorkel diesel subs from most of the navies had the "1 hour rule": make turns for about 2 kts for max time before the battery dies or flank bell and the battery is dead in one hour, assuming a fully charged battery when the sub dives. Mind you this is a ball park figure but is a good guide to start the stop watch when the sub dives and note it's speeds, another consideration is how fast the props turn and their design, the faster they turn the more noise they make and easier to detect. German subs electric motors were direct drive, no reduction gears which makes theier drive line quieter but not their props. Every propeller, no matter how well designed and milled, has one blade that makes more sound and this enables you to "turn count" it by the beat noise it makes. A quick tip here, most U boats had 3 bladed props so instead of counting each beat and then the total beats for 15 seconds count them: 1 chic-ken- sh*t, chic-ken-sh*t, etc It's easier to keep of the chic-ken-sh*t's. I'll let you ponder yourselves term we used for 4 bladed props ( it's probably not very pc)! The RPM/ minute for the Fleet boats is not correct if my memory is right. With the sonobuoys in a cross pattern, with one in the middle, you can now start a plot on approx. course and correct speed, from the turn count, and this may let you put a weapon in the water and sink the U boat.
It's good to know that WWII German military information is declassified.
Takes me back to the first day of my basic sonar course
Your channel is truly awesome, thank you.
Very good series. Keep up the good work.
The missus and I heard a propeller aircraft fly overhead and listened to the beat. It sounded like a truck. I dived underwater recently near a guy doing freestyle swimming. I could hear his loud kicks. Sound is interesting. Out in the bush talking can be heard a long way off.
Great video, it was fun to count along with the test.
Re the chart of US submarine classes, the Gato class was after the Tambor and before the Balao classes. Also, some boats of the Tench class - next after the Balao class - served in WW2.
Tremendous upload, right up my street, thank you.
Counting propeller pulses like a nurse with a stop watch is so primitive. It looks like they were in such a wartime hurry they omitted to make electronic frequency counters to just read out the submarine speed. Even then phone companies knew all about that.
Tube counters were large 19” wide by 12”
high heavy boxes. While aircraft electronics are packaged differently it still is a heavy piece of equipment. Also the display was not easy to read.
@@doctorkdsify Also the high level of background noise made electronic discrimination difficult.
Great video! You’ve gone from having 300 views after a few hours to over a thousand within the first hour!
Sonarbuoys very much in the news today as the Titanic submarine loss is headline news. Banging noises every 30 mins are being picked up by a P3 Orion aircraft. Experts say its a sign the sub is likely on the surface. Amazingly the sub has no external distress pinger. No Black BOX thingy. It seems to have suffered a power loss.
Sub brief did a story on this.
Another well researched and concisely delivered topic. Where did you find those old LP's and were they 48's?
My God!...what's it like to be such a Geek? I'm envious of your ability to understand all of this.
Very well done, excellent technical brief
Wow! Excellent video!
Love the channel! Thanks!
Keep these videos coming.
It amazes me we could make air-droppable sonobuoys with vacuum tubes that could survive impact with the water.
I’m gonna download this series
Super fascinating. Thanks!!
Amazing that we could make these electronic devices, but utterly failed creating proximity fuses for torpedoes.
Way to go Navy Ordnance Bureau!
I wish you had links to all these documents so I can study this stuff.
Amazing content!
Cool dude.
Thank you.
0:16 That picture is hilarious. It look like as if the Ghostbusters were pulled into the 1940s and became Wolfpack hunters.
Interestingly the fact that most WW2 submarines were twin screw doesn't seem to affect RPM calculations.
Great video...👍
And then we added a motor to the Sono buoy with a different frequency
I wonder if it would have been technically feasible to build a system that would make rapid adjustments to buoyancy, quietly, to maintain depth within a narrow range. I'm thinking If the sub is floating up, compress some air from the top of a ballast tank into a bottle. The bottom of the tank could be open to the sea, so some seawater would be drawn in. If the boat is sinking, release some air into the ballast tank to start pushing out some of the water. Some kind of electrical or electromechanical integrator or differentiator could be used to calculate the qty of air to move with each adjustment. Of course, pumping water instead of air would be more precise and have a quicker effect, but building a water pump that is quiet enough could be difficult.
Yet is it not a challenge that any air valves, piping and orifices are also noisy?
@@manzion7599 Better to use centrifugal or magnetohydraulic pumps on the seawater.
@@manzion7599 Yeah, no doubt.
G'day,
Yay Team !
Um, this is a pretty small Nit to pick upon, but you cite a
Nautical Mile as being
1.15 x the length of a
Statute mile...
As a budding Sailor I was given the impression that a Nautical Mile was 1 & 1/8ths of a Statute Mile, or 1.125 times the length - so I pricked up my ears at your figure.
So I ran it through the Calculator, and we're both wrong.
2,000 Yards of a Nautical Mile Divided by the
1,760 Yards of a Statute Mile ; is
1.1363.
So, not 15% bigger, and not One & an Eighth, either ; but
13.6% bigger..., when one actually bothers to check !
Such is life,
Have a good one...
Stay safe.
;-p
Ciao !
I feel like musicians would have been particularly well suited to being trained as sonar men.
The sound made by submarines is the biggest weakness.
Which is the reason modern nuclear subs are covered on the outside by rubber.
Multiplying by 4 and dividing by 20 is really the same thing as multiplying by 2 and dividing by 10. Much easier to do the latter in your head. Same process as calculating an appropriate tip.
The appropriate tip is determined by service
@@kenneth9874 I had no idea. Thanks for letting me know that!
@@GoSlash27 lol
@@kenneth9874 If you have any other painfully obvious statements you feel compelled to share, feel free to comment. I'm already aware that water is wet, but there may be some other facts I hadn't noticed. :)
Curious to know why there is only one beat per prop rev. Also wonder why having two props would not cause multiple beats. You would think four blade props would be different beat per rev than 3 blade. Interesting.
You are hearing the cavitation of the individual blades and the imperfections in the shaft, the blade rate x number of blades = shaft rate which you are counting. Modern sonobouys if getting a good reading will show a clear blade rate, shaft rate, gear ratios if any engine firing rates if diesels ect. If using multiple shafts you might see them or they could be in exact rhythm though in a turn you will likely see the rates differ. Through rising doppler or falling doppler rates and multiple sonobouys you can guestemate a possible course. While things have improved the basics remain the same.
@@9999plato Thank you.
Why is there a picture of a english PBY Catalina at 3.06 in split of a second?
The RAF were the first to use sonobuoys in WW2 under the codename "High Tea".
But...Is the sonar operator called "Sonar Boy"? Sorry, I had to :)
I was under the impression that WWII submarines, at least the U.S. models, did not have a direct connection between the diesel engines and the propellers, and that the propellers were always turned by electric motors whether they were drawing power from the batteries or directly from the generators when running on the surface. Is that correct, or was there a direct shaft from the diesel to the propeller? How about German U-boats?
For fleet type subs, yes, the generators (there are usually 4 or 5) have fairly complicated switching to a number of output busses. One (or maybe two, I forget) of the busses go to the electric drive motors. The motors go to mechanical reduction gearing, and the output of that goes to the prop. The generator output can also be switched to charge the batteries, or to run the electrical subsystems in the sub, like lights, blowers, radios, sonar, etc. There is also a big air compressor for a number of important uses.
So there is no direct connection from the diesel engines to the props, it is an electrical connection.
I *think* R and S type subs were the same sort of design, but I don't actually know for sure if that is true.
WW2 subs work exactly like modern hybrid automobiles. Although modern computers and electronics make the system much more efficient, the principle is exactly the same.
@@lwilton Thanks, that has always been my understanding. The way things were worded in the video (just more simply) made me question that, so I wanted to confirm.
@@roberthutchins1507 I've owned 4 hybrid cars, and they all had a conventional mechanical drivetrain that was merely supplemented by a electric motors, not replaced by them. You disagree with @lwilton?
@@gort8203 I'm not a German submarine expert. Having said that, it's my understanding that German subs used motor/ generator sets to conserve strategic materials (coper), and to save weight and space inside the sub. When the diesel engines are running, they turn both the props and the motor/generators to produce electricity. When the diesels aren't running, the batteries power the motor/generators to turn the props.
Yes I believe most if not all American subs were strictly diesel electric drives, they had both generators and electric motors. This is a heavier and larger system, but it is also more efficient, which was important for Pacific Ocean operations.
PBY
Are expecting Tesla submarines to come to market?
what
@@chamonix4658the tesla produces more power than a uboat. Thats what he is going on about
@@randomuser5443aaah ok i see 😂 sorry just woke up
Yes, they will rescue the Titanic explorers.
@@chamonix4658
No worries
Coulda used one to find titanic sub🤠
At last - defaulting to the proper pronunciation of buoy.
It's a weird word - how it can be mangled into 'boo-ee' is weirder still.
And, while I'm at it.......what road does Chuck Berry get his kicks on? Rout 66 or Route 66?
The French say it that way. Boo ee.
@@redtobertshateshandles So you speak French now?
@@kiereluurs1243 I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings to the Nederlands but the number of words that have been adopted by English speakers from Dutch/Flemish is...............tiny.
And if this was an exception....why did it skip straight past the UK and onto the US? Surely you'd have to admit that what is spoken in the USA is a derivation of English, which was then isolated from the parent tongue for 200 years.
You know - like what happened in South Africa or Canada.
My second example, Route 66, demonstrates how quickly pronunciation can change - the change from 'root' to 'rout' started in the 1970's or 80's (possibly as Chuck Berry's fame declined).
This was too easy. Sure glad I wasn't crew on a U Boat or Japanese I boat.
How many women would click on this? We all know the answer.😅