What’s crazy about sidelining Goten and trunks is that they have the perfect personality that Goku and Vegeta wanted in children. They love to fight, always train, and are super powerful from an early age. If the story focused more on them individually then they could’ve been the next generation of Earth’s protectors. They should be sent off world to face strong foes separate from each other and force them to grow up narratively
I feel like Goten and Trunks needs to go through their Gon & Killua stage . Like have them go solo on an adventure and get stronger while facing odds and beating up villains that get stronger and stronger leading to a big bad . Only than should fusion be used to make sense . But they need solo feats before than
@@SuperSohSo The reason that Gohan was able to grow was because he was forced to for most of his early life. He was kidnapped twice and had no choice but to fend for himself to survive. When most of the other Z fighters died he decided to continue fighting to honor them. Then afterwards he fought and Krillin were the only fighting force for their side until V, P & G joined. Then he unlocked SS2 to kill Cell. Goten and Trunks are surrounded by people more powerful than them so they’ll never have that dramatic experience to develop their characters. If any serious threat shows up the audience will always wonder why Goku, Piccolo, Gohan or Vegeta don’t step in to stop the threat. It’s a similar problem Boruto had and they resolved that by nerfing Naruto and Sasuke while making the antagonists more powerful. Since that isn’t going to happen in DB since Goku will always be the star it means Goten and Trunks will always languish on the side. Future Trunks will get an arc where he’s a main focus before Goten and Trunks ever would.
See, I agree with your main point but on Krillin, I don’t think he is an afterthought, his story was over. He has a wife, a kid, and a job. A happy fulfilled man who went through hell and back to get there.
They were my favorite characters in the franchise because i was around their age whin i began watching dragon ball. It's truly ashamed how much they've been wasted. On an unrelated note, bio broly is one of my favorite movies because goten and trunks get screen time and development beyond immediately fusing in order to fight.
Omg … ur the only other person besides me I’ve ever heard say that! I like bio broly too simply becuz it focused on Goten and Trunks individually and they were the main guys
Realizing the Big issue wit the buu saga is the lack of side villains. Saiyan saga had saibamen and nappa, namek saga had the ginyus and frieza force, cell saga had all the androids. Stuff to help the side characters do things and develop before the strongest came in and finished the job. Buu saga didn’t really have that, most super arcs lack that so no one really accomplished anything. When the side characters beat side villains we felt happy and connected to them, super and buu saga just has everyone lose until goku and Vegeta save the day.
This is such a shout!!! This is why I like the Moro arc in super, it gave everyone else a chance to fight. If it’s just one solo villain, we know it’s gonna be goku who saves the day majority of the time
You know, when you put it that way. You're right! That's why it felt like the side characters actually did something before in the previous arks. And they weren't just sitting around playing cards with each other.
I’d argue it wasn’t even fusion that made them jokes (that just reduced what little purpose Goten had as a character), it was practically their introductions. Once they turned super saiyan for the lolz I think it was made clear they weren’t going to be treated srsly in the story, ig Gotenks just built off that
They still could have been. By then normal SSJ wasn't that big of a deal, but they could have developed them to actually get better as fighters and earn SSJ2, and maybe only use Gotenks as a last resort like Gogeta is for Goku & Vegeta. Goten and Trunks really need an adventure. The most we got is the Buu arc, Broly 2nd Coming and Bio Broly.
Goten and Trunks are characters created without any purpose. Trunks only exists, due to his future version and Goten was only introduced to execute the Fusion As if that were not enough, we know, thanks to the end of the original manga, that both of them have no interest in fighting either... And Super takes up that idea by showing us their school life and the hobby of being heroes... which is a reflection and perhaps confirmation that they will lead a life similar to that of Gohan.
@@pn2294To expand the world of dragon ball, multiple characters can do different things at once that can possibly culminate into one big arc. This will have to involve higher stakes and a bigger scale to really make use of them and other characters in the story.
The problem with Goten and Trunks is they brought Vegeta and Goku back. Remember when they where introduced Gohan was the main characters. They supposed to be his sidekicks but with the Return of Goku from the dead it makes them useless
I think it was mostly for a connection to his statement to buu before killing him. “Maybe you’ll come back some day as a better person I hope, perhaps we’ll have a little one on one.” I always thought Uub was tie in to that.
@@Whydoweneedhandles427it made more sense to have them all develop as warriors to protect the future of Earth. While super could expand across the universe’s which they kinda did. Leaving Goku and Vegeta to handle threats across the galaxy while leaving Earth to have its protectors as well.
I felt that Goten and Trunks should have been spirtual sucessors for Vegeta and Goku respectively. Goten could have been a well-meaning , boisterous kid with potential, but lacks focus and discipline. He could have gain that from training with Vegeta. While Trunks is a laid-back intelligent kid who is capable of combat but he is rigid in his approach. He learns to experiment more and push himself from Goku. Goten and Trunks could have been the wildcards of the Z-Fighters in Super. Both could have unique transformations, inventive techniques and variations via expermention. So when they make an appearance, we can see a entertaining moment at least.
As a kid, I always wanted Goten to be the next main character cause he was just Little Gokou, but with his most powerful forms early on. Bio Broly movie was my favorite back than cause of this.
And I always loved Goten soo much I waited for some kind of timeskip or a new character arc being aware that they’re getting wasted But I gave up on them not too long ago and even more now seeing their performances in the highschool saga
Yeah the closest any of them had to character development was Trunks in GT who was just a cross between future and present Trunks and even then that all was thrown out the window once Baby was introduced.
It seems like a simple enough fix could have worked: just meaningfully include them in arcs. Even if they’re only there to hold a villain off until stronger help arrives, that’s better than nothing. Unlike humans relegated to that same role, they’ll actually see power increases upon their inevitable ass kickings.
Your absolutely right man, I believe in the same. Give them time defused, apart from each other even. Also I loved goten and trunks in gt, they are extremely well defined in who they are, the problem was they did not change at all, especially goten
Goten’s moment to shine fell apart when Goku came back to life. The story seems allergic to having both of them being major forces during the story at the same time Prime Trunks will never be as developed as Future Trunks so Toriyama didn’t even try as hard when just being a younger version of that character who gets to grow up alongside Vegeta is enough
It's sad how Broly Second Coming and Wrath of the Dragon are the closest things we got to giving the new generation any meaningful development, and even that was limited to Trunks. The whole Saiyaman Saga in Super felt forced and uninspired as hell, basically a much worse version of Gohan's highschool arc. Also how Trunks's personality seems to have done a 180, he used to think the Saiyaman thing was lame. Then there were the cliches you see in every secret superhero highschooler movie. Sad part is Goten-Trunks fans were just happy they finally got some spotlight, even if that spotlight was brown.
What I think they should have done with them, was have things go how they were in the Buu arc, but in a continuation of the series like what Super is (even though I don't like Super) should have them still feel like they have potential but also earn more power like making them learn how to tap into Super Saiyan 2 individually (yes they can go SS3 as Gotenks but my headcanon was that it was through the fusion itself. Like how Gogeta has attacks exclusive to him that Goku & Vegeta lack.) Make their growth the arcs of their own. They had the motive and the resolve against Super Buu but their fusion made them too cocky and ignorant. That should have been an area to develop on or have them grow as characters individually before they fuse again (or like Gogeta use it as a last resort, but have them grow stronger individually to maybe argue it would make the fusion stronger if need be). Then have them take over for Future Trunks and Adult Gohan as the next in-line (like who Gohan was in the Cell games) and have Gohan mentor them and Piccolo train. They should have had new arcs they would be used in. Its the one thing I liked about the Buu arc, with how they were always needing to train and prepare on short notice, and didn't master things right away that were advanced for them, like fusion) I miss that. What the series does with them, has always been dissatisfying. Super is also the series where nothing feels earned and transformations all feel like asspulls with no narrative-supported training b-plots. Nothing since Z, really feels like Z.
Just another example of Shonen manga/anime's most glaring flaw.... nerfing anyone who isn't the main character or his buddy cop sidekick (sorry Vegeta and Sasuke). This is the same thing that happened to fan favorites like Neji, Gara, and Rock Lee on Naruto. Imagine how amazing Dragon Ball and Naruto would be if EVERYONE was allowed to grow and develop alongside the main characters. DB started out this way, but diverged into a 1 Trick Pony type of thing. Fans had to bytch for years before Gohan got Beast Mode. It's a shame, the possibilities and fight scenes could be truly epic if everyone grew more powerful.
The way the manga just ended its last chapter made it so they might be important again. Also in super kid trunks knocked some stuff in to future trunks and helped him fight. Goten also got serious and trained when his mom was killed in buu saga. There is little things they did with goten and trunks it's just spread thin.
People fell to realize that they had to sideline them of they would be too op too quick. Then if you follow the theme of super it’s all about teamwork which is the boys speciality unlike their fathers. Teen gotenks is gonna be op whenever they do the fusion right
To me, the most unforgivable thing the series did to goten and trunks was, in the tournament of power, reviving Freeza (a truly bad guy) and out of the blue make Kame Senin (who did not fight since the OG DB) join the group, instead of making goten and trunks fight. What is worse, they used the excuse of "they are just children, we must protect them", but Gohan fights since he was 5 years old and he turned out just fine.
I agree with that. It's a shame and shows the lack of care for those two that they decided to exclude those two in place of Freeza and someone they didn't even ask to fight against Vegeta and Nappa! That's how little the story cared about these two! Really hope that someday they get some respect. Not going to happen in Daima obviously...
@@FlarisUnfortunetly i don't think they will ever get any kind of spotlight and/or development its been decades and nothing happened to their characters even newly introduced characters have more going for them even pan had more important role and she is basically a toddler
Goten and Trunks should have fought Kale and Caulifla. Double fusion fight would have been EPIC! The writing in Super was just terrible. Horrible decisions and missed opportunities all around.
Except Gohan didn't screw around and not take things seriously when he fought as a kid like Goten and Trunks do. Those two failed so bad at being the next-generation that Goku picked the reincarnation of the bubblegum monster he killed as the next protector of Earth.
Goten doesn't even feel like his own person there he's mainly overshadowed by trunks and does whatever he says. They could have done something about goten wanting to step out of the shadow of everyone (goku, gohan, trunks) and achieve his own potential, but no he's basically a side character to trunks that originally just looked like goku
I think by them being characters always seen together, they really should have been like a version of Goku and Vegeta that are more willing to cooperate against their opponents. They should have been trained to utilise eachothers strengths and make up for any mistakes the other makes. Working side by side (in still childish ways) to take on any opponent they come across. Then as the age and grow stronger the capacity of their combat increases they'd stop being so childish and begin to get more serious to be the Next generation to protect the Earth. They'd have spent so much honing their skills when they fuse, Gotenks would be the Ace up the sleeve and practice perfectly so they'd never screw it up. Giving them at least in combat their own personality and making them different to everyone else
Actually the fan base ruined them, and also gohan. The original plan was to move on from goku and vegeta and let gohan be the mc after the cell games. But the fan base didn’t want to move on from goku
It’s hard cause they young and you still got the OGS running it…… so it’s like they don’t get the opportunity to save the day like that …… they should’ve allowed them to be the ones to win the tournament of power ….. that would’ve upped they stock
Exactly ! Only reason Gohan got the beast upgrade was because Goku and Vegeta wasn’t there. I agree with you. Goku and Vegeta should be off fighting a bigger battle. And Gohan , teenage trunks and Gotens should fight a strong enemy.
Disagree. Fusion was the only way for them to have even be relevant in the Buu saga. What did you want? For them to be relevant as little children? It would make the other adult saiyans look ridiculous and have them make mistakes even more on purpose to prolong the story. Buu saga was the last saga so in that saga alone they got their shine. The issue is more so that in DBS they are non existant.
And you probably have a video about this, but can we not forget the way they sidelined tf outta Uub?!?!? Is not Uub the reincarnation of Buu as good? I don't need an entire Uub arc but imagine having the strength of Buu on the side of the Z-Fighters. It's the least we deserve after literally watching Goku pass the mantle onto him so many years ago.
I prefer GT Goten and Trunks they actually had unique personalities in Super they have no idea what the hell they're doing with these characters outside of being a gag.
Dude Goten and Trunks are characters created without any purpose. Trunks only exists, due to his future version and Goten was only introduced to execute the Fusion As if that were not enough, we know, thanks to the end of the original manga, that both of them have no interest in fighting either... And Super takes up that idea by showing us their school life and the hobby of being heroes... which is a reflection and perhaps confirmation that they will lead a life similar to that of Gohan.
@@IvanAlonso-o2n so you typed all of that just to agree with me? I'm confused. Sounds like you wanted to sound objective with a paragraph but just said what I said. 🤦🏾♂️
the problem is, everyone wants them to be Goku or Vegeta, instead of just…them. it happened to Gohan, everyone wanted him to essentially be like Goku instead of himself.
@@BabyGirlTiny but being relevant is relative. The question is, how do you want them to be relevant and in most cases, OP hit the nail right on the head.
@@emperorjoker9240if you want them relevant then they SHOULD’VE been the next Goku and Vegeta or at least let them be the teen versions since we already had teen trunks and let Goku and Vegeta age a bit
@@arthurwalker2561 I couldn’t disagree more. I like them having their own distinct personalities different from their fathers. The fact that people seem to think that simply making them little clones of them is a good idea is mind-boggling to me. The real issue is Screen Time. Toei needs to do like they did during past sagas and take Goku and Vegeta out of the equation for a little bit and focus on other characters. You can still get your fights and character development without making them carbon copies because if you do that then what’s the point?
My hot take on the series overall is that fusion honestly kinda ruins the themes of personal growth and self-improvement that the series has been about since the first tournament arc in og DB. Fusion is super cool concept-wise but I think it isn't fit narratively for a series that puts such a heavy emphasis on individual self-improvement.
I dont think fusion is inherently bad narratively, its just bad when its a defining thing. Vegito and Z gogeta were immensley important narratively in their debut, hell even gt gogeta had weight characterwise. And while vegito and gogeta blue dont have that narrative weight, theyre great spectacles meant to set a tone of desperation. Its not like they turn to fusion at every threat so that doesnt interfere with the growth themes, and fusion in and of itself represents vegetas growth. The issue lies with gotenks, hes the defining trait of goten and trunks as said, hes all the weight they have, gotenks doesnt serve as a desperation spectacle but a stronger stand in for every fight scenario.
You're right about Trunks and Goten but saying krillin becoming a cop is low on the totem pole? Thats an L take. Krillin went 7 years with no threats and he needed a job. Cop makes sense for him since 18 wouldn't let him sit around.
Nah, the fusion is awesome. What ruined them is the inability to fuse correctly now. Fusion has become a joke when it always fails. So now they lost the one thing that made them awesome. At least that's my thought.
Nope, what ruined them is that they’re not individual characters. If they have to rely strictly on fusion, then fuse them permanently as they serve nothing as individual characters
No its that for them they HAVE to fuse. Gogeta and vegito are cool because its not something that can be used, but gotenks has to be used when they fight. on one hand theyre not strong enough individually, but on the other hand, fusion has to fail because itd make them the strongest due to fusion being busted. Its a weird cycle because goten and trunks could train given they have some of the best potential, but they dont do that seriously becayse if they did, given how fusion has become their gimmick, theyd always be busted as gotenks
And maybe give them a training arc where they realize how outclassed they are and they have to stop relaying on fusion and instead starts training to finally achieve ssj2 or even ssj3 (even tho i think they will achieve 2 more).
@@youssefbeltaief7584 facts I was saying to myself today while playing ultimate tenkaichi,like Goten and Trunks should at least have SSJ2,meanwhile Goku,Vegeta,Gohan and Future Trunks have more than 3 forms,honestly it should take them 2 days to reach SSJ2 in the chamber,SSJ3 would be difficult but I feel Goten should master SSJ3 since it came from his bloodline and he perfect the form in fusion,I love Goten and Trunks and they deserve so much more,honestly I hope they get their own movie as teens.
@@youssefbeltaief7584 facts bro,and people still sleep on that movie,Goten and Trunks did their thing as SSJs,I want more of them,as Teens they are hilarious ik they would have a great movie,with the right time and writing,like honestly their prequel to Superhero should be a movie,I would love to see those two go to school and fight crime🙏🏻💯if they decide to go forward with that,it would be a miracle.
They were always gag characters in a more sort of gag focus arc, not that it was but the arc wasn’t nearly as serious. Mr. Boo was the subversion until Super Boo and Chibi Boo, but even then, they were still goofy in some aspects.
@@dominiquerobinson8888 Agreed but I think the argument can be made of how little they’re used. They’re extremely powerful, but at the end of DragonBall they haven’t trained but G.T kind of redeemed them sort of? Goten fought Bebi who he said was the strongest foe he’s fought so he’s above Super Boo. Also I say sort of because he and many others were barely used in G.T. Trunks wasn’t even with Gokou & Pan in the final arc against most Shadow Dragons.
@@dominiquerobinson8888so they were created to do nothing? That’s like saying people can’t be mad at how the human characters are treated, because their role is to do nothing but be nostalgia for people that watched dragon ball
@@BabyGirlTiny Naw they were created to bring comedy, gags, and the goofy shit that Toriyama likes. They had an entire mini arc dedicated to them, and it was a slice of life romcom. Yall just don’t like what they’re doing. Plus I ain’t mad cause the show literally has better versions of them characters in Gohan and Future trunks lol. They the sons of the main characters, individuals, leads in arcs, and have more of a purpose then just fighting
@@dominiquerobinson8888except they’re not even in the majority of the arcs for them to do that lol. The mini arc was garbage, don’t know why you brought it up as if it added anything to their characters when it didn’t. Better versions? Goten and trunks are nothing like Gohan. Or is it that they’re half saiyans so you lump them all together as one? Future trunks? He became irrelevant after he killed freeza lol. He just has a sad backstory and angst.
The #1 problem with Dragon Ball is that the story is centered around Goku, who hasn't changed much since the beginning of the series. Imo, the best thing that could happen to Dragon Ball would be to take a break from the adventures of Goku and let some other characters get the spotlight. That way we get to see other characters develop and when Goku does make a rare cameo it will feel like an event.
This may be an unpopular take, but I didn’t mind Gohan’s high school episodes, it fleshed out how a sheltered kid with extraordinary powers blended in with peers his age but not background. I’d be alright if they did that with these two, expand the Super Hero to a spin off, so while their fathers are dealing with galactic threats they’re doing their high school lives with minor threats, flesh out their characters a bit more. Continue what Super Hero started. (I know the whole Trunks-Mai ship makes a lot uncomfortable, but she isn’t pursuing him, and what, should she be going after old men? Mai is in an impossible situation she didn’t choose) Also they could go a bit heavier in the comedy which was always an aspect in the original series was known for and Toriyama went back to more in Super and now Daima)
It was really disappointing how status-quo stuck they are. Somehow the U6 Saiyan got much more focus and development than they ever did. If Gohan isn't a consistent fighter, why couldn't they just use Goten & Trunks? And of all the times they could have gotten focus to lead the cast. The Buu arc imo is overhated for bad reasons imo, but what it did at least try to do was transition the cast out from Goku & Vegeta, with how it set up focus for Goten and Trunks.
This was a great video and something that contradicts DBZ in general, is Future Trunks. If Goten and Trunks don’t get any air time, when does Trunks start training under Gohan? Because present day Z Fighters are preventing destruction of the future, does that eliminate Trunks’ need to train/ face adversaries?
Gotenks was a great addition. There's too many characters in the series anyway to make them all good, especially when they bring back characters like Future Trunks and Android 17 in Super who both had no business being brought back. Gotenks is better than Goten and Trunks regardless. Now Gotenks, Goten, and Trunks are being wasted in DB Super. this series just needs to end already.
A few quips, or things to mention: -Understand why they both had to use fusion, though. Them going Super Saiyan alone would be nowhere near enough to beat Majin Buu. -Many characters were outshined by Goku in GT. Even Vegeta and Pan were mere side characters compared to Goku. Sadly, Super does this. -Dragon Ball has no character growth. We’ve got Vegeta becoming a good guy, and Gohan going from a fighter, to a normal teen, to a fighter, and then to a scholar. That’s not growth. I’m not targeting the characters directly, but the series.
If I'm being honest, I think the reason why they haven't been pushed in the same boat as everyone else is that, their fathers want them to be kids and enjoy life. Goku had a somewhat normal life growing up, Vegeta had a easy life as a prince and did what he pleased. So in his eyes, he loved a normal life. Gohan, is the only one who didn't have a more life and was pushed to be a fighter. He wasn't born as one. Which is why he always turns into a civilian. Trunks and Goten have us a glimpse that they want to be fighters like their dad, they're eager for the fight. You can tell in Z and in Super. Bulma seen what happened to Gohan and keeps them away from it. Same as Chichi but is the other way, she protected Gohan and kept him from training. She trained with Goten. In the end, Bulma is the one who is there watching and keeping them away from it. Another scene in Z in which neither of their dad's want them near the battle field; When Goku yells at them to go far war from the fight, before going SS3 vs Buu, and Vegeta saying his goodbye to them, knocking both kids out and telling Piccolo to take them away before blowing up. They both want to be fighters at the end of the day, it's just that, subconsciously, they don't want Goten and Trunks to experience what Gohan went through and I think, off camera/manga they want them to be regular kids with a regular life. That's the reason I think why they've been pushed down so far in terms of their involvement in any sort of fighting. Everyone of them had normal life up to the Frieza saga, besides Gohan, who's innocence was taken away when Goku died and was fostered by Piccolo.
Goten really started as one of my favourites, I never connected to Gohan like Gohan fans do but Goten was that kid to me, but they were done so bad, even in DB Daima they were turned into Infants when i thought they could've finally had some time to shine, also goes my dream of seeing Kid Goku and Goten interactions
Isn’t that one of the themes of the buu saga tho: What it looks like to raise the next generation and the consequences that come from it? Of course goten and trunks lost their shine early on and didn’t have major issues to contend with. That’s like how in real life, every generation is SUPPOSED to be better than the next. We see that with them in their ability to turn super sayian as children and how easy things come to them. However, when things come easy, they can be taken for granted. We saw that with them and other characters too in this saga. I hear your points. When you mention character development in dbz, some characters in this series, in its entirety, are slow burners. If not, they’re static characters and it makes sense to the angle that akira toriyama was choosing to tell the story-despite the differences in anime to manga. so idk how I feel about that remark about character development, but I hear you. I like goten and trunks. I don’t think they should or need to reach up to the status of their fathers because it’s a new generation. They have new goals that are separate from their parents and older gen. We have yet to see if it’ll go anywhere for them and if it doesn’t, like how real life be at times, then that’s okay.
If they wanna go the superhero route, fusing would add to the spice of that, since transformations and fusions are a staple in the superhero genre, specially with japanese superheroes, but the fact that fushions always have the same outfit, compared to potara fusions which fuses the users's outfits too, kinda makes it lame, and since potara fusions are permanent it would be a bit of a hassle to use them (altho they gave it a time limit on the Goku Black arc...). Altho I'm biased since I really liked the Great Saiyaman appearances on DBZ.
I like Gotenks. I do think that they being the primaraly fusion fighter is a really nice niche. Would it be cool to see more of them as individuals? Sure. But i like way more they being focused in the fusion than being another saiyan with all the kiblasts and moves that we always see. It would be even better if they learned gotenks powers as individuals, bit we never see anyone learning anything while fused, so.
Goten is actually ny favourite character in Dragon ball Z. I loved his goofy nature and his unmatched potential. He could go super Saiyan before he even learned what Ki was. But more than that we got to see his struggles even if they were minor ones. He WANTS to be like Goku, but ChiChi didn't want that for him. We see him constantly fall behind because of his lack of formal training, despite his potential. He FELT like Goku's future successor. But then he was relegated into a background character, and he experienced no growth. Even into Super he's stuck at the Saiyan Saga level. At this point he's weaker than Yamcha, who hasn't been relevant SINCE the saiyan saga. Goten hasn't grown as a fighter, or as a character, and Super's answer to this was to make him just someone who's too lazy to train. With the introduction of the Gamma's andfusion having NOT worked in the series i could see them having ONE last chance to grow but honestly it feels a little late.
Well Trunks had purpose because Future Trunks had to exist. Goten tho? Gohan grew up and Toriyama wanted there to be another child in Goku's family to replace that void
@@presidentc4 Wrong! Their purpose was for the children watching dbz feel part of the show just like og dragon ball with Kid goku and gohan during dbz until the buu saga.
@@Mojaveknight17Wrong again, Toriyama’s initial goal with the Boo arc was to showcase the next generation taking over as Earth’s protectors. As mentioned before Gohan grew up and was meant to take on the role of protagonist and Trunks had already been born by the Android arc. Goten is the interesting one here, he was made to be a replacement for Goku, not in terms of role but in terms of character and design. The issue for all 3 characters ended up being Goku. With him taking back his spot as protagonist, it somewhat trivialized the entire Boo arc as it reestablished the “Goku will fix everything” trope. The End of Dragon Ball arc then establishes Uub and Pan as Goku’s protégés and most likely candidates for earth’s new protectors leaving Goten and Trunks to feel a bit redundant which Super enforced due to them needing to be similar to their end of Dragon Ball counterparts.
Trunks had some narrative focus during the beginning and mid of GT but by the time they returned to earth it was right back to Gotenks and them becoming a running joke. This was especially sad at the time because Trunks was thrust into the role of being “the grown up” in the room alongside Goku and Pan, but by the end of the show it was obvious that his development never really went anywhere. Personally I’d like to see more of Goten because Trunks always receives so much love
1) fusion was acceptable as a writing direction for them, because ultimately the two of them exist as a unit. Theyre a mirror to the dynamic between their fathers being enemies, turned rivals, then frenemies, then i guess cold-friends. Their fathers need to struggle for everything. Their children are the opposite, symbolicly, which is another way of communicating a new more peaceful age has come. Theirnfathers fought for the safety of earth and against themselves, the children do not. They do not exist without the other, in this timeline. And i think thats enough for character representation. They exist in total harmony with each other, and fight best together, and so Toriyama made them one fighter when it comes to actually fighting at the level of needing to save the earth (SS3 Fusion). This also fits closer with the actual lives of children, since these two represent adolescence and pre-pubescence, which goku also did back in the day. If goten and trunks grow older, THEN you have the chance for either of them to individuate- as in venture out into the world on their own to discover their own unique personality/desires/needs/ego- which is a normal part of lifespan development for adolescents-turned-young adult. I feel like this is about as much character work Toriyama does for any of his characters. But your conversation is about the question: could Toriyama have done more? And the answer is always yes. This is the tragedy of all of DBZ. Almost all the characters could have been handled with more care and interest. This is just sort of the reality of his career overall. Once you start cracking open the issue of his characters needing more literary support, youll find its a bottomless topic, from Picollo, to Krillin, to pretty much all the original cast. Ive been loterally waiting 20 years, 20 YEARS, for Picollo to have any proper focus. Which IS what Toriyama finally decided to address before he died with his last movie, but even then he was forced to make Gohan the larger character highlight. But at least his focus returned to his Picollo character a bit more before he left us too soon. 2) if you are a grumpy OG anime/DBZ fan like me, you could just not watch or read anything with Super, and that pretty mich fixes 85% of any issue with Goten/Trunks. That series is very weak sauce, although i respect its the generation many of you grew up with, so its viewed as shiny, new, and significant. But for some of the more picky old school nerds like me, it was very obviously a phoned-in effort on Toriyama's part, and the studio as a whole. It has its moments, because, how could it not? Super took years to make and raked in a lot of cash, so some shining moments came through but it just didnt have the soul. Overall i really respect where youre coming from with wanting more. Because me and my old friends who LOOOOVE *all* of Toriyama's penned works have also felt a bit left out in the dust on the character love, but, if you learn about the kind of writer Toriyama was, slowly you start to get it. He himself was always just trying to have fun making up his adventures as he went along, and he was never as caught up with his own stuff as the fans ended up being. He likes his stuff very simple, silly, kinda dumb, but delivered with elegance, whimsy, and easthetic. He deals with more "cool", and "funny", than "deep", or "metaphorical". Which is too bad, because with the level of fame that Dragon Ball and DBZ has brought, these characters and stories are practically new human myths. I cant believe how well loved all over the workd these characters are now. Its just too bad Toriyama himself didnt see his work as this epic in his intentions at the onset, because nowadays it is (and has been) pretty challenging to frame Dragon Ball through the lense of literature.
What Goten and Trunks need is an antagonist or a pair of antagonists strong enough take them on as a pair or to fight them individually while in a situation where fusion isn't viable or better yet have them develop a mindset like their fathers where they refuse to do fusion as a matter of pride. Which is why I've said before that the Bio Broly movie gave us the best iteration of Goten and Trunks. I've seen people make fun of and rip on that movie because of Broly's appearance and the circumstances surrounding it when the movie isn't about Broly it's about Goten and Trunks coming into their own as warriors. The movie and especially the antagonist serve as a vehicle to showcase the boys' growth. They start out as cocky playful brats straight out of the Buu saga and end as actual dependable fighters which should have been the natural progression for them in the mainline series but for some reason the powers that be refuse to take that next step leaving their characters in limbo.
What about the movie where they faced Bio Broly? Goten and trunks “beat” him without the fusion. They couldn’t transform into ssj2 or ssj3 but at least trunks was smart and found a way to beat him.
I think the real issue is everybody wants them(and Gohan) to be their fathers. You see it and fan created works that while good in concept when you start to break down the characters, it’s basically Goku and Vegeta several times over padded with good fights/potential transformation.
Also I love reading or hearing about what ifs regarding Goten and Trunks . Always wanted Goku and Vegeta to hand the reigns to Goten and Trunks and let Gohan have his family and career. Love to see Piccolo also train them with Goku and Vegeta
I hoping for some sort of Goten and Trunks arc sometime soon. If it's either them in highschool or them finally realizing their potential but either way I feel like we NEED IT in Super. I totally feel like Super could have an arc focused on that but would it is the question? Goten and Trunks are such cool characters imo and I feel like they SHOULD learn how to grow on their own, and then they combine their powers to become something new. That's how it should go instead of 2 weaklings that only become strong when they fuse, And 2 weaklings that don't even HAVE character. They got so much potential I just hope it doesn't go wasted forever. Also Fusion as a thing for them also sounds cool just be sure they have their own things that make them cool too. Cause they honestly have a chance to become stronger and better than they already are.
I always thought it'd be cool if they did what SU did with Garnet -- Gotenks as a fusion could be about self-love, synchronicity, and confidence that makes them stronger. It'd highlight why Trunks and Goten matter to each other so much.
it even wrost for goten who has the potieonal of gohan, but the drive and love of fighting as goku [ the thing made gohan not work as a protag ] but now that pretty much given that to mindset to pan so once again goten is left being the fusion part with trunks
When i think about them i actually rarely think of their fusion. i just see them as goofballs and comedic characters and i honestly think thats fine. I like that theyre a duo and kinda like brothers. I think that they should have more than just fusion sure but i like the idea that they are stronger together and think that even if they dont fuse that their fighting styles should still compliment eachother. like maybe coming up or learning techniques that are great alone but even better when used together. not every saiyan has to be goku or vegeta. Since we have vegeta and goku to take care of big things and then gohan just in case why would trunks and goten need to become super powerful when they arent the main characters? theyre already essentially prodigies.
I mean if we keeping it a bean, they parents did the fighting so they could have a better life. So wanting them to be fighters like their parents defeats the purpose
They have all the potential in the world to still be great. If that’s what Toyotarou wanted to do right now. Also it wasn’t fusion that instantly killed them. It was the treatment of them since. They could have still been written into plots to train and become stronger individually. That’s what I wish Super had been when it was first announced, I thought we’d actually continue on and Goten and Trunks would be older, and we’d actually see them go on adventures and unlock greater heights with Gohan and Piccolo training them. Meanwhile Goku and Vegeta could be dealing with Universe level threats at this point. In general, that’s what killed them. The fact that at the end of the day Goku and Vegeta just handled everything.
Basically, they were sidelined partway through their introduction arc, and nothing was done to give them any real significance. Even now, they’re just comedic “shenanigans” characters in a series where the main plot points are just fighting and growing stronger.
I've been thinking what you have for a long time to and I've always been disappointed that they get nothing done with them. I actually do see a lot of fun potential growth with Goten and Trunks...
A Dragon Ball fan video that’s grounded and full of insight? I didn’t think I’d live to see the day. I wouldn’t really say there is no coming back for them. It’s just that we know from the end of Z that Toriyama lost interest in them, so there was really no reason (and no real use) to build them up in Super. I agree that it was Z that did them wrong, but I don’t think it was the fusion’s fault. It wouldn’t be the first or last be all and end all technique that is suddenly dropped (looking at you Kaioken and hakai dealing perfected blue). And indeed it was dropped, but the characters were also dropped all together. My boy Toriyama just didn’t like them enough.
nah fusion was great and gotenks going ssj vs buu was very memorable, otoh super is the series that actually ruined these 2 by having them sit out the top which had their entire universe at stake when they were forced to master fusion in the rime chamber vs lower threat buu, as always super is the problem
The problem is that Goku and Vegeta only use fusion as a last resort, and that was the intention for Goten & Trunks, due to the circumstances of Buu being a threat they couldn't prepare for. But because of flanderization, its their first and only option if they ever do anything at all in the franchise now.
I feel one of the biggest issues with the series is that it never paid off the passing of the torch to the next generation they set up. It inheritently makes all of the half saiyans pointless outside of random non canon and debatably canon movies. I feel Gohan should’ve originally took over as MC for the Buu Saga and potentially even Super while Goten and Trunks be the MC’s for GT back in the day. Traveling the galaxy finding Dragonballs and fighting the antagonists at the time would’ve helped grow their characters and powers. The creators could’ve wrote in ways where Goten and Trunks have 1 on 1 battles in these scenarios. Then for the major villains potentially have team ups with Gohan and others in order to take them down
everybody keeps saying it fusion but I don’t think it’s only fusion or primarily even fusion. The fact that's there’s always someone stronger around them means they don’t have to develop. For example Gohan have developed without him being relied on in the sale arc and that’s only because he was considered the strongest with his light abilities. But you can’t continue to use that trope as long as Goku and Vegeta are able-bodied go 10 trun without him being relied on in the sale arc and that’s only because he was considered the strongest with his light abilities. But you can’t continue to use that trope as long as Goku and Vegeta are able bodied Goten and trunks wont develop
In super I would have liked go have seen situations that made them really re think their approach and begin seriously training all over again to raise their power level, or even see their personalities Clash causing tension during their fusion like when Megaman Lan started having issues their two characters with so much potential that need more development trunks should be the successor to Saiyan Pride and Goten has two goals to chase in Goku and Gohan which should be great motivation. Then after over coming these personal battles they fuse back into gotenks or even making the choice not to fuse to propel themselves forward as fighters
Granted you’re right about basically everything but in the manga goten and trunks both fought super broly without fusing if you want the chapter and page lmk.
I won't say Z ruined Goten and Trunks but Super Arcs did. Most of Z arcs always had that formula to not keep Goku in most of the plot. His involvement is around the climax of the arc. This give chance for other characters take charge in absence of Goku. In Saiyan Saga, Goku died after his fight with Radiz. He only game back around the end of the arc, this gave characters like Yamcha, Krillin, Tien, Chouzu, Gohan and Piccolo to fight against Nappa. This same formula is also true in Namek, Android and Cell Saga. But most of Super Arcs keep Goku and Vegita at center stage. Thus not giving chance for other fighters to develop. The only arc that followed the Z pattern was Moro arc, where when Goku and Vegita were off training, Gohan, Piccolo, Android 17 and 18 had their contribution and moments. But Goten and Trunks didn't because even without Goku and Vegita, there were still other fights like Gohan and Piccolo to take charge.
Toriyama should have made Goten way more powerful than Gohan because he started off a super Saiyan and super Saiyan 2 younger than what Gohan was when he was super saiyan super Saiyan 2. He looks exactly like his father so toriyama should have gave him the instinct of that on that needing to get stronger kind of mindset. He should be more powerful than trunks as well because he was younger than trunks when he became super Saiyan. I just don't like how they did Goten I can care less about trunks
I still think they should be galactic patrolmen, I feel like that's an easy way to give them individual struggles while they try to be heroes. You don't have to dedicate an arc to it, just do little cover stories and bonus chapters about what they do to flesh them out as individuals. It honestly hurts me that they haven't done that. Cause it just seems like an easy thing to do. I'll never forget how in dragon ball 100 years after, it was written that they develop a school of swordsmanship, I always thought that made sense and was so cool, nothing has been done with it and it still bothers me. Imagine they meet a tapion like character and trunks learns the way of the sword from him. What if the ki blade was taught to goten by merus? what if they had to deal with ancient monster released to terrorize the citizens of a planet and they had to work together to fight against a kaiju like hirudegarn. I still believe there is potential here, it's just not utilized.
I think that fusion as a concept really made it so much more obvious that power creep was an issue. It gave the message on several occasions that even with two characters combining their strengths they still can't live up to Goku and his accomplishments
OG Dragonball is my favorite Dragonball series. It's like an action comedy. The manga keeps the comedy. The world tournaments are my favorite parts of the series. The original red ribbon saga is really cool. And the battles and adventures were mostly centered around finding the dragonballs. That's a reason I love Dragonball GT. It's like the 1st half of OG Dragonball
First time I fully agree with you man well done. I will go further to say I couldn't care less about them and never have. Future Trunks is a different story he is the man! Future Trunks is my favorite Saiyan-Human hybrid.
Even though bio broly movie catches a lot of hate, I always appreciated that we got to see goten & trunks actually get serious, like genuinely serious and defeat a strong opponent without fusion, wish we got more of that. I also loved the their fight choreography when fighting together against broly.
Goten and Trunks need to become the new faces of the Dragonball franchise. Its time the next generation takeover. I agree Fusion ruined them as it caused them to lose their relevancy as individuals
Goten and Trunks were done dirty in the Buu saga the moment Chichi died could've been a moment for Goten to go ssj 2 and with their grief of Goten losing his mom and brother and Trunks losing his father this could've driven them to going ssj2 but the writrs botched it with them, in super they gave Goten a chance to train with Goku on Beeruses world but Trunks got him to stay and even later on during the peaceful times they could've taken Goten and Trunks and made them train on beerus planet with Goku,Vegeta and Broly (they've given goten more opportunities to improve than they have trunks and they keep botching it to keep them as a duo, Goten want's to get stronger and has wanted that since he was a kid but never got it and Trunks has wanted it since he was a kid too and stopped really wanting it later on because he wants to impress a girl and he also still never got it) even in that sparing match with super broly,ui goku,beast gohan, whatever vageta was because i don't think it was shown, trunks and goten, those 2 were actually holding their own from what was shown and still they tease the two's potential yet never show it (this new arc looks like it could possibly be a change for the boy's because now they realize how far behind they're lacking and want to get stronger(i think), it looked like an opening to change for the two(i so hope it is because again with how op they keep making these two it's crazy, even fighting pretty ok against cell max) also i do hate the superhero stuff with them, with their match against gohan they were too focused on being flashy and not fighting fr fr which seems to be a problem for them and in future could get in the way of actual fights they could potentially face, i do hate the fact they're trying to bring back the fusion trope again, i hope to see more of them as separate characters and for trunks to stop simping for old people) (as you can see i have hella beef with Trunks x Mai it's just so disgusting and technically pedophelic(only if Mai likes him back that is, like in the future timeline + the future timelines Mai x Trunks makes no sense because mai should either be dead, an old old woman or both, there's no possible way for her to get younger again unless she decided to travel to namek and use those dragonballs since the one's in her time were destroyed year's ago when Trunks was still a baby, i have beef with that plot hole aswell) now in their arc Trunks in a hardcore simp for grandma Mai and he's pretty stupid(apperantly having bad grades and being dumber than his 2-3yr old sister) with a fear of ghosts somehow despite everything he's seen and been through and he became a hero to save people but also to impress Mai and it seems his priority is so Mai can notice him now with Goten, he wants to get stronger and isn't out to impress girls, but to save people and get stronger, the problem is they made him a character with little personality(ofc he still has his goofy, carefree self but they didn't do much with him(he's still a better character than Trunks tho) this is why i like the dragon ball movies, the movies featuring Trunks and Goten actually made them individual characters who are strong on their own and not dependent on their fusion for everything, they didn't even fuse in those 2 movies and their development was great in those, Goten even had moments where he was the one coming up with plans and Trunks where he actually showed how smart he was the DBZ movies did them justice honestly, too bad they aren't canon tldr- Trunks and Goten have crazy potential and currently the arc has an opening for them to get stronger, i have beef with Trunks x mai and the future trunks x mai plot hole and DBZ Goten and Trunks are better and have more development than their canon counterparts (i feel like i wasn't making any sense(i understood myself) so plz tell me if i made any sense)
Goten and trunks need to be like Ryu and Ken as teenagers. Ryu lived in the mountains (just like goten) and Ken lived a lavish life (like trunks). Both these guys train on their own and are rivals. I would have loved to see goten and trunks find a master (similar to master roshi) who trains them, showing them new techniques which leads them down a new path.
I definitely want them to have more development it can be perfecting fusion or individual. They are definitely wasted characters. The fact they are now teens in the Super manga and still can only go Super Saiyan 1 is crazy, ontop of them forgetting how to fuse, and they definitely should have been in the tournament of power, that could've given them great individual growth as well as letting Gotenks shine too. Gotenks vs Kefla would've been such a dope fusion battle
I mostly agree, but another way to look at it, to appreciate them. Is to realise they wouldnt exist if future Trunks didnt come back. Their goofy nature is the result of the relative peace theyve grown up in, that was due to the success of the Z fighters. Goten is a bit bland but he otherwise wouldnt exist. Future Trunks was somber and burdened and robbed of the goofiness he has now. Trunks is now allowed to have a happier life along with Goten. They could be developed better but I still think their existance serves as a very important reminder of how bleak things would be without the Z fighters and how dangerous the world of Z is.
![ILLSLICK - KILLSHOT REMIX [FULL VERSION]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/RIK8RrqIAzE/mqdefault.jpg)
What’s crazy about sidelining Goten and trunks is that they have the perfect personality that Goku and Vegeta wanted in children. They love to fight, always train, and are super powerful from an early age. If the story focused more on them individually then they could’ve been the next generation of Earth’s protectors. They should be sent off world to face strong foes separate from each other and force them to grow up narratively
I feel like Goten and Trunks needs to go through their Gon & Killua stage . Like have them go solo on an adventure and get stronger while facing odds and beating up villains that get stronger and stronger leading to a big bad . Only than should fusion be used to make sense . But they need solo feats before than
Which they’ll never get. I been gave up hope on those 2 clowns….
calling the clown is a little foul
yeah but they would have to be as compelling as gon & killua too and thats a lot to ask
@@SuperSohSo
The reason that Gohan was able to grow was because he was forced to for most of his early life. He was kidnapped twice and had no choice but to fend for himself to survive. When most of the other Z fighters died he decided to continue fighting to honor them. Then afterwards he fought and Krillin were the only fighting force for their side until V, P & G joined. Then he unlocked SS2 to kill Cell.
Goten and Trunks are surrounded by people more powerful than them so they’ll never have that dramatic experience to develop their characters. If any serious threat shows up the audience will always wonder why Goku, Piccolo, Gohan or Vegeta don’t step in to stop the threat. It’s a similar problem Boruto had and they resolved that by nerfing Naruto and Sasuke while making the antagonists more powerful. Since that isn’t going to happen in DB since Goku will always be the star it means Goten and Trunks will always languish on the side. Future Trunks will get an arc where he’s a main focus before Goten and Trunks ever would.
@@Sjonoprecisely why people should stop complaining about Goten and Trunks
See, I agree with your main point but on Krillin, I don’t think he is an afterthought, his story was over. He has a wife, a kid, and a job. A happy fulfilled man who went through hell and back to get there.
I was thinking the same thing. I'd be pretty content with myself in his situation
They were my favorite characters in the franchise because i was around their age whin i began watching dragon ball. It's truly ashamed how much they've been wasted.
On an unrelated note, bio broly is one of my favorite movies because goten and trunks get screen time and development beyond immediately fusing in order to fight.
Omg … ur the only other person besides me I’ve ever heard say that!
I like bio broly too simply becuz it focused on Goten and Trunks individually and they were the main guys
Brruuuhh yes Bio Broly is where Goten and Trunks shined. I love that movie
I thought I was the only one
We bio broly movie enjoyers shall rise!
Thank you I thought I was the only one willing to fight for the Bio Broly movie
Realizing the Big issue wit the buu saga is the lack of side villains. Saiyan saga had saibamen and nappa, namek saga had the ginyus and frieza force, cell saga had all the androids. Stuff to help the side characters do things and develop before the strongest came in and finished the job. Buu saga didn’t really have that, most super arcs lack that so no one really accomplished anything. When the side characters beat side villains we felt happy and connected to them, super and buu saga just has everyone lose until goku and Vegeta save the day.
This is such a shout!!! This is why I like the Moro arc in super, it gave everyone else a chance to fight. If it’s just one solo villain, we know it’s gonna be goku who saves the day majority of the time
Wow you’ve finally found a way to say what I’ve been thinking this whole time
What about Dabura and Babadi
@@Thathoodedshyguyboth of them were taking out by buu and babadi minion was taking out by goku and vegeta
You know, when you put it that way. You're right! That's why it felt like the side characters actually did something before in the previous arks. And they weren't just sitting around playing cards with each other.
Krillin is a human character. Him getting a normal job makes sense. But he is still important character.
Especially when he is one of the only Z fighters who is not rich like Goku and Vegeta lol
Don’t do this lol, it’s a battle shounen where Krillin was fighting to the death every arc up until Super. It’s not ‘normal’ just because he’s a human
@@Tapedoff dude's just a family man who can casually spar with planet level aliens, dont mean he does not have responsibilities
That is why I enjoy dragon ball kakumei cause what it does for Goten and Trunks
Exactly.
facts
What is dragon ball Kalkumei?
@@S3rv3nT4pthis
@S3rv3nT4p A great fan manga, I highly recommend it 👌
They def deserve better solo wise and gotenks .. honestly Yamaha chatsu and tien too . They just pushed them to the side fr
I’d argue it wasn’t even fusion that made them jokes (that just reduced what little purpose Goten had as a character), it was practically their introductions. Once they turned super saiyan for the lolz I think it was made clear they weren’t going to be treated srsly in the story, ig Gotenks just built off that
They still could have been. By then normal SSJ wasn't that big of a deal, but they could have developed them to actually get better as fighters and earn SSJ2, and maybe only use Gotenks as a last resort like Gogeta is for Goku & Vegeta.
Goten and Trunks really need an adventure. The most we got is the Buu arc, Broly 2nd Coming and Bio Broly.
@@GeteMachinethat’s pointless since they’re just weaker versions of Goku and Vegeta
What’s the point in using them over their older counterparts?
Goten and Trunks are characters created without any purpose.
Trunks only exists, due to his future version and Goten was only introduced to execute the Fusion
As if that were not enough, we know, thanks to the end of the original manga, that both of them have no interest in fighting either...
And Super takes up that idea by showing us their school life and the hobby of being heroes... which is a reflection and perhaps confirmation that they will lead a life similar to that of Gohan.
@@pn2294To expand the world of dragon ball, multiple characters can do different things at once that can possibly culminate into one big arc. This will have to involve higher stakes and a bigger scale to really make use of them and other characters in the story.
@@dvdivine1962 that’s not what Dragon Ball is unfortunately
You have your main villain and then everyone takes turns to defeat them
The problem with Goten and Trunks is they brought Vegeta and Goku back. Remember when they where introduced Gohan was the main characters. They supposed to be his sidekicks but with the Return of Goku from the dead it makes them useless
Not to mention Goku passing the torch to a random kid (Uub) instead of Goten and Trunks.
I think it was mostly for a connection to his statement to buu before killing him. “Maybe you’ll come back some day as a better person I hope, perhaps we’ll have a little one on one.” I always thought Uub was tie in to that.
@@Whydoweneedhandles427it made more sense to have them all develop as warriors to protect the future of Earth. While super could expand across the universe’s which they kinda did. Leaving Goku and Vegeta to handle threats across the galaxy while leaving Earth to have its protectors as well.
Woke before woke existed… uub is SO terrible lol.
@@angelsacksonSo you hate him cause he's black, tf
@@angelsacksonThis is the stupidest comment I've ever seen. Never share your opinion again
I felt that Goten and Trunks should have been spirtual sucessors for Vegeta and Goku respectively.
Goten could have been a well-meaning , boisterous kid with potential, but lacks focus and discipline. He could have gain that from training with Vegeta.
While Trunks is a laid-back intelligent kid who is capable of combat but he is rigid in his approach. He learns to experiment more and push himself from Goku.
Goten and Trunks could have been the wildcards of the Z-Fighters in Super. Both could have unique transformations, inventive techniques and variations via expermention. So when they make an appearance, we can see a entertaining moment at least.
As a kid, I always wanted Goten to be the next main character cause he was just Little Gokou, but with his most powerful forms early on.
Bio Broly movie was my favorite back than cause of this.
And I always loved Goten soo much I waited for some kind of timeskip or a new character arc being aware that they’re getting wasted
But I gave up on them not too long ago and even more now seeing their performances in the highschool saga
Yeah the closest any of them had to character development was Trunks in GT who was just a cross between future and present Trunks and even then that all was thrown out the window once Baby was introduced.
Well.. more like once they got back to earth, but your point still stands.
It seems like a simple enough fix could have worked: just meaningfully include them in arcs. Even if they’re only there to hold a villain off until stronger help arrives, that’s better than nothing. Unlike humans relegated to that same role, they’ll actually see power increases upon their inevitable ass kickings.
Your absolutely right man, I believe in the same. Give them time defused, apart from each other even. Also I loved goten and trunks in gt, they are extremely well defined in who they are, the problem was they did not change at all, especially goten
That's probably why people liked episode 4 of that Dragon Ball Deliverance fan animation so much.
GALACTIC GUILLOTINE!!!
Fr bro goten and trunks first turned super saiyan at the age of 7 and 8. How did they get such a glowdown???
By never doing anything after the Buu arc.
Goten’s moment to shine fell apart when Goku came back to life. The story seems allergic to having both of them being major forces during the story at the same time
Prime Trunks will never be as developed as Future Trunks so Toriyama didn’t even try as hard when just being a younger version of that character who gets to grow up alongside Vegeta is enough
They should have never changed goten’s hair
Never understood that decision.
He’s half saiyan like gohan, and gohan has had multiple hair changes not saying the hair looks good but it does make sense
It kinda reminds me of Toriyama's original design for Goku's hair tbh
Rat take brother
It’s pure marketing, you can sell a mini Goku, but at a certain point the design has to change so you can sell extra by differentiating the two.
It's sad how Broly Second Coming and Wrath of the Dragon are the closest things we got to giving the new generation any meaningful development, and even that was limited to Trunks.
The whole Saiyaman Saga in Super felt forced and uninspired as hell, basically a much worse version of Gohan's highschool arc. Also how Trunks's personality seems to have done a 180, he used to think the Saiyaman thing was lame.
Then there were the cliches you see in every secret superhero highschooler movie.
Sad part is Goten-Trunks fans were just happy they finally got some spotlight, even if that spotlight was brown.
Its because they are treated as a joke instead of serious.
What I think they should have done with them, was have things go how they were in the Buu arc, but in a continuation of the series like what Super is (even though I don't like Super) should have them still feel like they have potential but also earn more power like making them learn how to tap into Super Saiyan 2 individually (yes they can go SS3 as Gotenks but my headcanon was that it was through the fusion itself. Like how Gogeta has attacks exclusive to him that Goku & Vegeta lack.) Make their growth the arcs of their own. They had the motive and the resolve against Super Buu but their fusion made them too cocky and ignorant. That should have been an area to develop on or have them grow as characters individually before they fuse again (or like Gogeta use it as a last resort, but have them grow stronger individually to maybe argue it would make the fusion stronger if need be).
Then have them take over for Future Trunks and Adult Gohan as the next in-line (like who Gohan was in the Cell games) and have Gohan mentor them and Piccolo train. They should have had new arcs they would be used in. Its the one thing I liked about the Buu arc, with how they were always needing to train and prepare on short notice, and didn't master things right away that were advanced for them, like fusion) I miss that.
What the series does with them, has always been dissatisfying. Super is also the series where nothing feels earned and transformations all feel like asspulls with no narrative-supported training b-plots. Nothing since Z, really feels like Z.
I will never forget the fight between Goten and Trunks at the world tournament one of the best fights!
Just another example of Shonen manga/anime's most glaring flaw.... nerfing anyone who isn't the main character or his buddy cop sidekick (sorry Vegeta and Sasuke). This is the same thing that happened to fan favorites like Neji, Gara, and Rock Lee on Naruto. Imagine how amazing Dragon Ball and Naruto would be if EVERYONE was allowed to grow and develop alongside the main characters. DB started out this way, but diverged into a 1 Trick Pony type of thing. Fans had to bytch for years before Gohan got Beast Mode. It's a shame, the possibilities and fight scenes could be truly epic if everyone grew more powerful.
I really want the end of Super to have them going with Jaco and becoming part of the Galatic Patrol. I'd watch a whole ass spinoff series about that.
The way the manga just ended its last chapter made it so they might be important again. Also in super kid trunks knocked some stuff in to future trunks and helped him fight.
Goten also got serious and trained when his mom was killed in buu saga. There is little things they did with goten and trunks it's just spread thin.
People fell to realize that they had to sideline them of they would be too op too quick. Then if you follow the theme of super it’s all about teamwork which is the boys speciality unlike their fathers. Teen gotenks is gonna be op whenever they do the fusion right
@@marthouismcmiller4787If they haven't done it in over a decade, I doubt that'll happen now
@@ForrestFox626 more like you just don’t read the manga lol
@@marthouismcmiller4787 Bite me
To me, the most unforgivable thing the series did to goten and trunks was, in the tournament of power, reviving Freeza (a truly bad guy) and out of the blue make Kame Senin (who did not fight since the OG DB) join the group, instead of making goten and trunks fight. What is worse, they used the excuse of "they are just children, we must protect them", but Gohan fights since he was 5 years old and he turned out just fine.
I agree with that. It's a shame and shows the lack of care for those two that they decided to exclude those two in place of Freeza and someone they didn't even ask to fight against Vegeta and Nappa! That's how little the story cared about these two! Really hope that someday they get some respect. Not going to happen in Daima obviously...
@@FlarisUnfortunetly i don't think they will ever get any kind of spotlight and/or development its been decades and nothing happened to their characters even newly introduced characters have more going for them even pan had more important role and she is basically a toddler
Goten and Trunks should have fought Kale and Caulifla. Double fusion fight would have been EPIC! The writing in Super was just terrible. Horrible decisions and missed opportunities all around.
Except Gohan didn't screw around and not take things seriously when he fought as a kid like Goten and Trunks do. Those two failed so bad at being the next-generation that Goku picked the reincarnation of the bubblegum monster he killed as the next protector of Earth.
Goten doesn't even feel like his own person there he's mainly overshadowed by trunks and does whatever he says. They could have done something about goten wanting to step out of the shadow of everyone (goku, gohan, trunks) and achieve his own potential, but no he's basically a side character to trunks that originally just looked like goku
Wasn’t alive in the 90’s? Holy fuck I’m old.
His probably in his early 20's
@@jeremyhall2727no shit
Goten and Trunks were fun when I was a kid. My favorites nowadays are Tien and Piccolo. Maybe because I relate to them more as a single adult.
I think by them being characters always seen together, they really should have been like a version of Goku and Vegeta that are more willing to cooperate against their opponents. They should have been trained to utilise eachothers strengths and make up for any mistakes the other makes. Working side by side (in still childish ways) to take on any opponent they come across. Then as the age and grow stronger the capacity of their combat increases they'd stop being so childish and begin to get more serious to be the Next generation to protect the Earth. They'd have spent so much honing their skills when they fuse, Gotenks would be the Ace up the sleeve and practice perfectly so they'd never screw it up. Giving them at least in combat their own personality and making them different to everyone else
Actually the fan base ruined them, and also gohan. The original plan was to move on from goku and vegeta and let gohan be the mc after the cell games. But the fan base didn’t want to move on from goku
It’s hard cause they young and you still got the OGS running it…… so it’s like they don’t get the opportunity to save the day like that …… they should’ve allowed them to be the ones to win the tournament of power ….. that would’ve upped they stock
Exactly ! Only reason Gohan got the beast upgrade was because Goku and Vegeta wasn’t there. I agree with you. Goku and Vegeta should be off fighting a bigger battle. And Gohan , teenage trunks and Gotens should fight a strong enemy.
Disagree. Fusion was the only way for them to have even be relevant in the Buu saga. What did you want? For them to be relevant as little children? It would make the other adult saiyans look ridiculous and have them make mistakes even more on purpose to prolong the story. Buu saga was the last saga so in that saga alone they got their shine. The issue is more so that in DBS they are non existant.
And yet, Gohan at 11 made everyone irrelevant in the cell saga
@@BabyGirlTiny ok that was built up all the way from saiyan saga. Nobody is waiting for 2 gohan copies
@@Cat_90Sthey already have the power and the love of fighting and training. There is not going to be another Gohan when they’re so vastly different
And you probably have a video about this, but can we not forget the way they sidelined tf outta Uub?!?!? Is not Uub the reincarnation of Buu as good? I don't need an entire Uub arc but imagine having the strength of Buu on the side of the Z-Fighters. It's the least we deserve after literally watching Goku pass the mantle onto him so many years ago.
With all the problems in Super, I honestly think it wasn't necessary of a series to shove in between Buu and EOZ. GT treated Uub better.
Goten and trunks has always been my favorite dragon ball characters. I also did like fusion but you are right because they were fusioning too often.
I prefer GT Goten and Trunks they actually had unique personalities in Super they have no idea what the hell they're doing with these characters outside of being a gag.
Dude
Goten and Trunks are characters created without any purpose. Trunks only exists, due to his future version and Goten was only introduced to execute the Fusion As if that were not enough, we know, thanks to the end of the original manga, that both of them have no interest in fighting either... And Super takes up that idea by showing us their school life and the hobby of being heroes... which is a reflection and perhaps confirmation that they will lead a life similar to that of Gohan.
@@IvanAlonso-o2n so you typed all of that just to agree with me? I'm confused. Sounds like you wanted to sound objective with a paragraph but just said what I said. 🤦🏾♂️
@@Dreadpoolz3977😂😂
the problem is, everyone wants them to be Goku or Vegeta, instead of just…them. it happened to Gohan, everyone wanted him to essentially be like Goku instead of himself.
That’s not the problem. People want them to be relevant because they’re half Saiyans. Instead they’re jokes and have no purpsoe
@@BabyGirlTiny but being relevant is relative. The question is, how do you want them to be relevant and in most cases, OP hit the nail right on the head.
@@BabyGirlTinyagreed
@@emperorjoker9240if you want them relevant then they SHOULD’VE been the next Goku and Vegeta or at least let them be the teen versions since we already had teen trunks and let Goku and Vegeta age a bit
@@arthurwalker2561 I couldn’t disagree more. I like them having their own distinct personalities different from their fathers. The fact that people seem to think that simply making them little clones of them is a good idea is mind-boggling to me. The real issue is Screen Time. Toei needs to do like they did during past sagas and take Goku and Vegeta out of the equation for a little bit and focus on other characters. You can still get your fights and character development without making them carbon copies because if you do that then what’s the point?
This is the reason why FUTURE Trunks is my favorite DBZ Character
Same
Z future trunks is so tuff
same 😮💨
@@WgPLyzzzzzGlazing, tired of you Z fans
@@AGZharkhow is liking something glazing 💀
0:41 really weird seeing kid trunks with OG future trunks hairstyle 🤓
DBGT gave Goten his best characterization in the entire series
Definitely. I love gt goten
And an original hairstyle.
Facts GT Goten🔥🔥is the best Goten💯
@@GeteMachinemfw end of z
Yes and trunks needed to be like his future self from z
you just repeated yourself over and over for 5 minutes straight.
🙃 ok 😂
Ikr this video could have been 2 mins long
My hot take on the series overall is that fusion honestly kinda ruins the themes of personal growth and self-improvement that the series has been about since the first tournament arc in og DB. Fusion is super cool concept-wise but I think it isn't fit narratively for a series that puts such a heavy emphasis on individual self-improvement.
I blame Dragon Ball's power creep
I dont think fusion is inherently bad narratively, its just bad when its a defining thing. Vegito and Z gogeta were immensley important narratively in their debut, hell even gt gogeta had weight characterwise. And while vegito and gogeta blue dont have that narrative weight, theyre great spectacles meant to set a tone of desperation. Its not like they turn to fusion at every threat so that doesnt interfere with the growth themes, and fusion in and of itself represents vegetas growth. The issue lies with gotenks, hes the defining trait of goten and trunks as said, hes all the weight they have, gotenks doesnt serve as a desperation spectacle but a stronger stand in for every fight scenario.
You're right about Trunks and Goten but saying krillin becoming a cop is low on the totem pole? Thats an L take.
Krillin went 7 years with no threats and he needed a job. Cop makes sense for him since 18 wouldn't let him sit around.
Nah, the fusion is awesome. What ruined them is the inability to fuse correctly now. Fusion has become a joke when it always fails. So now they lost the one thing that made them awesome. At least that's my thought.
Nope, what ruined them is that they’re not individual characters. If they have to rely strictly on fusion, then fuse them permanently as they serve nothing as individual characters
No its that for them they HAVE to fuse. Gogeta and vegito are cool because its not something that can be used, but gotenks has to be used when they fight. on one hand theyre not strong enough individually, but on the other hand, fusion has to fail because itd make them the strongest due to fusion being busted. Its a weird cycle because goten and trunks could train given they have some of the best potential, but they dont do that seriously becayse if they did, given how fusion has become their gimmick, theyd always be busted as gotenks
They should animate Goten and Trunks 😭Prequel arc to Superhero as a movie 🔥🔥🔥I wanna see their own movie with them as teenagers.
And maybe give them a training arc where they realize how outclassed they are and they have to stop relaying on fusion and instead starts training to finally achieve ssj2 or even ssj3 (even tho i think they will achieve 2 more).
@@youssefbeltaief7584 facts I was saying to myself today while playing ultimate tenkaichi,like Goten and Trunks should at least have SSJ2,meanwhile Goku,Vegeta,Gohan and Future Trunks have more than 3 forms,honestly it should take them 2 days to reach SSJ2 in the chamber,SSJ3 would be difficult but I feel Goten should master SSJ3 since it came from his bloodline and he perfect the form in fusion,I love Goten and Trunks and they deserve so much more,honestly I hope they get their own movie as teens.
@@dameonmabry I agree the last time we saw them as the main protagonists of a movie was in bio Broly and this movie was decades ago
@@youssefbeltaief7584 facts bro,and people still sleep on that movie,Goten and Trunks did their thing as SSJs,I want more of them,as Teens they are hilarious ik they would have a great movie,with the right time and writing,like honestly their prequel to Superhero should be a movie,I would love to see those two go to school and fight crime🙏🏻💯if they decide to go forward with that,it would be a miracle.
They were always gag characters in a more sort of gag focus arc, not that it was but the arc wasn’t nearly as serious. Mr. Boo was the subversion until Super Boo and Chibi Boo, but even then, they were still goofy in some aspects.
@@azimuddin1890 That’s exactly the case! They’re not ruined because they’re doing exactly what they were created to do.
@@dominiquerobinson8888
Agreed but I think the argument can be made of how little they’re used. They’re extremely powerful, but at the end of DragonBall they haven’t trained but G.T kind of redeemed them sort of? Goten fought Bebi who he said was the strongest foe he’s fought so he’s above Super Boo. Also I say sort of because he and many others were barely used in G.T. Trunks wasn’t even with Gokou & Pan in the final arc against most Shadow Dragons.
@@dominiquerobinson8888so they were created to do nothing? That’s like saying people can’t be mad at how the human characters are treated, because their role is to do nothing but be nostalgia for people that watched dragon ball
@@BabyGirlTiny Naw they were created to bring comedy, gags, and the goofy shit that Toriyama likes. They had an entire mini arc dedicated to them, and it was a slice of life romcom. Yall just don’t like what they’re doing. Plus I ain’t mad cause the show literally has better versions of them characters in Gohan and Future trunks lol. They the sons of the main characters, individuals, leads in arcs, and have more of a purpose then just fighting
@@dominiquerobinson8888except they’re not even in the majority of the arcs for them to do that lol.
The mini arc was garbage, don’t know why you brought it up as if it added anything to their characters when it didn’t.
Better versions? Goten and trunks are nothing like Gohan. Or is it that they’re half saiyans so you lump them all together as one?
Future trunks? He became irrelevant after he killed freeza lol. He just has a sad backstory and angst.
The #1 problem with Dragon Ball is that the story is centered around Goku, who hasn't changed much since the beginning of the series. Imo, the best thing that could happen to Dragon Ball would be to take a break from the adventures of Goku and let some other characters get the spotlight. That way we get to see other characters develop and when Goku does make a rare cameo it will feel like an event.
This may be an unpopular take, but I didn’t mind Gohan’s high school episodes, it fleshed out how a sheltered kid with extraordinary powers blended in with peers his age but not background.
I’d be alright if they did that with these two, expand the Super Hero to a spin off, so while their fathers are dealing with galactic threats they’re doing their high school lives with minor threats, flesh out their characters a bit more. Continue what Super Hero started. (I know the whole Trunks-Mai ship makes a lot uncomfortable, but she isn’t pursuing him, and what, should she be going after old men? Mai is in an impossible situation she didn’t choose) Also they could go a bit heavier in the comedy which was always an aspect in the original series was known for and Toriyama went back to more in Super and now Daima)
It was really disappointing how status-quo stuck they are. Somehow the U6 Saiyan got much more focus and development than they ever did.
If Gohan isn't a consistent fighter, why couldn't they just use Goten & Trunks? And of all the times they could have gotten focus to lead the cast. The Buu arc imo is overhated for bad reasons imo, but what it did at least try to do was transition the cast out from Goku & Vegeta, with how it set up focus for Goten and Trunks.
This was a great video and something that contradicts DBZ in general, is Future Trunks. If Goten and Trunks don’t get any air time, when does Trunks start training under Gohan? Because present day Z Fighters are preventing destruction of the future, does that eliminate Trunks’ need to train/ face adversaries?
Gotenks was a great addition. There's too many characters in the series anyway to make them all good, especially when they bring back characters like Future Trunks and Android 17 in Super who both had no business being brought back. Gotenks is better than Goten and Trunks regardless. Now Gotenks, Goten, and Trunks are being wasted in DB Super. this series just needs to end already.
Goten and trunks can’t be wasted if you only care about Gotenks. By your logic they should fuse permanently
This is a great video dog. Pissed I hadn’t found your channel sooner. Subbed up doggy
2:59 Well Gohan also has mild PTSD due to his past "fighting" experience. A mean family reunion to Namek(?) is biasly...rough to put it lightly.
A few quips, or things to mention:
-Understand why they both had to use fusion, though. Them going Super Saiyan alone would be nowhere near enough to beat Majin Buu.
-Many characters were outshined by Goku in GT. Even Vegeta and Pan were mere side characters compared to Goku. Sadly, Super does this.
-Dragon Ball has no character growth. We’ve got Vegeta becoming a good guy, and Gohan going from a fighter, to a normal teen, to a fighter, and then to a scholar. That’s not growth. I’m not targeting the characters directly, but the series.
If I'm being honest, I think the reason why they haven't been pushed in the same boat as everyone else is that, their fathers want them to be kids and enjoy life. Goku had a somewhat normal life growing up, Vegeta had a easy life as a prince and did what he pleased. So in his eyes, he loved a normal life. Gohan, is the only one who didn't have a more life and was pushed to be a fighter. He wasn't born as one. Which is why he always turns into a civilian.
Trunks and Goten have us a glimpse that they want to be fighters like their dad, they're eager for the fight. You can tell in Z and in Super. Bulma seen what happened to Gohan and keeps them away from it. Same as Chichi but is the other way, she protected Gohan and kept him from training. She trained with Goten. In the end, Bulma is the one who is there watching and keeping them away from it. Another scene in Z in which neither of their dad's want them near the battle field; When Goku yells at them to go far war from the fight, before going SS3 vs Buu, and Vegeta saying his goodbye to them, knocking both kids out and telling Piccolo to take them away before blowing up.
They both want to be fighters at the end of the day, it's just that, subconsciously, they don't want Goten and Trunks to experience what Gohan went through and I think, off camera/manga they want them to be regular kids with a regular life. That's the reason I think why they've been pushed down so far in terms of their involvement in any sort of fighting. Everyone of them had normal life up to the Frieza saga, besides Gohan, who's innocence was taken away when Goku died and was fostered by Piccolo.
Goten really started as one of my favourites, I never connected to Gohan like Gohan fans do but Goten was that kid to me, but they were done so bad, even in DB Daima they were turned into Infants when i thought they could've finally had some time to shine, also goes my dream of seeing Kid Goku and Goten interactions
Isn’t that one of the themes of the buu saga tho: What it looks like to raise the next generation and the consequences that come from it? Of course goten and trunks lost their shine early on and didn’t have major issues to contend with. That’s like how in real life, every generation is SUPPOSED to be better than the next. We see that with them in their ability to turn super sayian as children and how easy things come to them. However, when things come easy, they can be taken for granted. We saw that with them and other characters too in this saga. I hear your points. When you mention character development in dbz, some characters in this series, in its entirety, are slow burners. If not, they’re static characters and it makes sense to the angle that akira toriyama was choosing to tell the story-despite the differences in anime to manga. so idk how I feel about that remark about character development, but I hear you. I like goten and trunks. I don’t think they should or need to reach up to the status of their fathers because it’s a new generation. They have new goals that are separate from their parents and older gen. We have yet to see if it’ll go anywhere for them and if it doesn’t, like how real life be at times, then that’s okay.
If they wanna go the superhero route, fusing would add to the spice of that, since transformations and fusions are a staple in the superhero genre, specially with japanese superheroes, but the fact that fushions always have the same outfit, compared to potara fusions which fuses the users's outfits too, kinda makes it lame, and since potara fusions are permanent it would be a bit of a hassle to use them (altho they gave it a time limit on the Goku Black arc...).
Altho I'm biased since I really liked the Great Saiyaman appearances on DBZ.
I like Gotenks. I do think that they being the primaraly fusion fighter is a really nice niche. Would it be cool to see more of them as individuals? Sure. But i like way more they being focused in the fusion than being another saiyan with all the kiblasts and moves that we always see. It would be even better if they learned gotenks powers as individuals, bit we never see anyone learning anything while fused, so.
Goten is actually ny favourite character in Dragon ball Z. I loved his goofy nature and his unmatched potential. He could go super Saiyan before he even learned what Ki was. But more than that we got to see his struggles even if they were minor ones. He WANTS to be like Goku, but ChiChi didn't want that for him. We see him constantly fall behind because of his lack of formal training, despite his potential. He FELT like Goku's future successor. But then he was relegated into a background character, and he experienced no growth. Even into Super he's stuck at the Saiyan Saga level. At this point he's weaker than Yamcha, who hasn't been relevant SINCE the saiyan saga. Goten hasn't grown as a fighter, or as a character, and Super's answer to this was to make him just someone who's too lazy to train. With the introduction of the Gamma's andfusion having NOT worked in the series i could see them having ONE last chance to grow but honestly it feels a little late.
My question to you: what was the purpose of Goten and Trunks?
Well Trunks had purpose because Future Trunks had to exist. Goten tho? Gohan grew up and Toriyama wanted there to be another child in Goku's family to replace that void
@@presidentc4 Wrong! Their purpose was for the children watching dbz feel part of the show just like og dragon ball with Kid goku and gohan during dbz until the buu saga.
@@Mojaveknight17Wrong again, Toriyama’s initial goal with the Boo arc was to showcase the next generation taking over as Earth’s protectors. As mentioned before Gohan grew up and was meant to take on the role of protagonist and Trunks had already been born by the Android arc. Goten is the interesting one here, he was made to be a replacement for Goku, not in terms of role but in terms of character and design.
The issue for all 3 characters ended up being Goku. With him taking back his spot as protagonist, it somewhat trivialized the entire Boo arc as it reestablished the “Goku will fix everything” trope.
The End of Dragon Ball arc then establishes Uub and Pan as Goku’s protégés and most likely candidates for earth’s new protectors leaving Goten and Trunks to feel a bit redundant which Super enforced due to them needing to be similar to their end of Dragon Ball counterparts.
@@dey6942 You really don't understand what Dragon Ball is at all. It's a form of entertainment.
@dey6942 you've been wrong since the beginning so watch dragon ball with your eyes open and think.
Trunks had some narrative focus during the beginning and mid of GT but by the time they returned to earth it was right back to Gotenks and them becoming a running joke.
This was especially sad at the time because Trunks was thrust into the role of being “the grown up” in the room alongside Goku and Pan, but by the end of the show it was obvious that his development never really went anywhere.
Personally I’d like to see more of Goten because Trunks always receives so much love
1) fusion was acceptable as a writing direction for them, because ultimately the two of them exist as a unit. Theyre a mirror to the dynamic between their fathers being enemies, turned rivals, then frenemies, then i guess cold-friends. Their fathers need to struggle for everything. Their children are the opposite, symbolicly, which is another way of communicating a new more peaceful age has come. Theirnfathers fought for the safety of earth and against themselves, the children do not. They do not exist without the other, in this timeline. And i think thats enough for character representation. They exist in total harmony with each other, and fight best together, and so Toriyama made them one fighter when it comes to actually fighting at the level of needing to save the earth (SS3 Fusion). This also fits closer with the actual lives of children, since these two represent adolescence and pre-pubescence, which goku also did back in the day. If goten and trunks grow older, THEN you have the chance for either of them to individuate- as in venture out into the world on their own to discover their own unique personality/desires/needs/ego- which is a normal part of lifespan development for adolescents-turned-young adult.
I feel like this is about as much character work Toriyama does for any of his characters. But your conversation is about the question: could Toriyama have done more? And the answer is always yes. This is the tragedy of all of DBZ. Almost all the characters could have been handled with more care and interest. This is just sort of the reality of his career overall. Once you start cracking open the issue of his characters needing more literary support, youll find its a bottomless topic, from Picollo, to Krillin, to pretty much all the original cast. Ive been loterally waiting 20 years, 20 YEARS, for Picollo to have any proper focus. Which IS what Toriyama finally decided to address before he died with his last movie, but even then he was forced to make Gohan the larger character highlight. But at least his focus returned to his Picollo character a bit more before he left us too soon.
2) if you are a grumpy OG anime/DBZ fan like me, you could just not watch or read anything with Super, and that pretty mich fixes 85% of any issue with Goten/Trunks. That series is very weak sauce, although i respect its the generation many of you grew up with, so its viewed as shiny, new, and significant. But for some of the more picky old school nerds like me, it was very obviously a phoned-in effort on Toriyama's part, and the studio as a whole. It has its moments, because, how could it not? Super took years to make and raked in a lot of cash, so some shining moments came through but it just didnt have the soul.
Overall i really respect where youre coming from with wanting more. Because me and my old friends who LOOOOVE *all* of Toriyama's penned works have also felt a bit left out in the dust on the character love, but, if you learn about the kind of writer Toriyama was, slowly you start to get it. He himself was always just trying to have fun making up his adventures as he went along, and he was never as caught up with his own stuff as the fans ended up being. He likes his stuff very simple, silly, kinda dumb, but delivered with elegance, whimsy, and easthetic. He deals with more "cool", and "funny", than "deep", or "metaphorical". Which is too bad, because with the level of fame that Dragon Ball and DBZ has brought, these characters and stories are practically new human myths. I cant believe how well loved all over the workd these characters are now. Its just too bad Toriyama himself didnt see his work as this epic in his intentions at the onset, because nowadays it is (and has been) pretty challenging to frame Dragon Ball through the lense of literature.
What Goten and Trunks need is an antagonist or a pair of antagonists strong enough take them on as a pair or to fight them individually while in a situation where fusion isn't viable or better yet have them develop a mindset like their fathers where they refuse to do fusion as a matter of pride. Which is why I've said before that the Bio Broly movie gave us the best iteration of Goten and Trunks.
I've seen people make fun of and rip on that movie because of Broly's appearance and the circumstances surrounding it when the movie isn't about Broly it's about Goten and Trunks coming into their own as warriors.
The movie and especially the antagonist serve as a vehicle to showcase the boys' growth. They start out as cocky playful brats straight out of the Buu saga and end as actual dependable fighters which should have been the natural progression for them in the mainline series but for some reason the powers that be refuse to take that next step leaving their characters in limbo.
What about the movie where they faced Bio Broly? Goten and trunks “beat” him without the fusion. They couldn’t transform into ssj2 or ssj3 but at least trunks was smart and found a way to beat him.
I think the real issue is everybody wants them(and Gohan) to be their fathers. You see it and fan created works that while good in concept when you start to break down the characters, it’s basically Goku and Vegeta several times over padded with good fights/potential transformation.
This is a really thoughtful video. Thank you!
Also I love reading or hearing about what ifs regarding Goten and Trunks .
Always wanted Goku and Vegeta to hand the reigns to Goten and Trunks and let Gohan have his family and career. Love to see Piccolo also train them with Goku and Vegeta
I hoping for some sort of Goten and Trunks arc sometime soon. If it's either them in highschool or them finally realizing their potential but either way I feel like we NEED IT in Super. I totally feel like Super could have an arc focused on that but would it is the question? Goten and Trunks are such cool characters imo and I feel like they SHOULD learn how to grow on their own, and then they combine their powers to become something new. That's how it should go instead of 2 weaklings that only become strong when they fuse, And 2 weaklings that don't even HAVE character. They got so much potential I just hope it doesn't go wasted forever. Also Fusion as a thing for them also sounds cool just be sure they have their own things that make them cool too. Cause they honestly have a chance to become stronger and better than they already are.
I always thought it'd be cool if they did what SU did with Garnet -- Gotenks as a fusion could be about self-love, synchronicity, and confidence that makes them stronger. It'd highlight why Trunks and Goten matter to each other so much.
I always liked Goten as a kid, still do now but i've always had this problem with him.
it even wrost for goten
who has the potieonal of gohan, but the drive and love of fighting as goku [ the thing made gohan not work as a protag ]
but now that pretty much given that to mindset to pan so once again goten is left being the fusion part with trunks
When i think about them i actually rarely think of their fusion. i just see them as goofballs and comedic characters and i honestly think thats fine. I like that theyre a duo and kinda like brothers. I think that they should have more than just fusion sure but i like the idea that they are stronger together and think that even if they dont fuse that their fighting styles should still compliment eachother. like maybe coming up or learning techniques that are great alone but even better when used together. not every saiyan has to be goku or vegeta. Since we have vegeta and goku to take care of big things and then gohan just in case why would trunks and goten need to become super powerful when they arent the main characters? theyre already essentially prodigies.
I mean if we keeping it a bean, they parents did the fighting so they could have a better life. So wanting them to be fighters like their parents defeats the purpose
They have all the potential in the world to still be great. If that’s what Toyotarou wanted to do right now. Also it wasn’t fusion that instantly killed them. It was the treatment of them since. They could have still been written into plots to train and become stronger individually.
That’s what I wish Super had been when it was first announced, I thought we’d actually continue on and Goten and Trunks would be older, and we’d actually see them go on adventures and unlock greater heights with Gohan and Piccolo training them. Meanwhile Goku and Vegeta could be dealing with Universe level threats at this point.
In general, that’s what killed them. The fact that at the end of the day Goku and Vegeta just handled everything.
Excellent video
Basically, they were sidelined partway through their introduction arc, and nothing was done to give them any real significance. Even now, they’re just comedic “shenanigans” characters in a series where the main plot points are just fighting and growing stronger.
I've been thinking what you have for a long time to and I've always been disappointed that they get nothing done with them. I actually do see a lot of fun potential growth with Goten and Trunks...
A Dragon Ball fan video that’s grounded and full of insight? I didn’t think I’d live to see the day.
I wouldn’t really say there is no coming back for them. It’s just that we know from the end of Z that Toriyama lost interest in them, so there was really no reason (and no real use) to build them up in Super.
I agree that it was Z that did them wrong, but I don’t think it was the fusion’s fault. It wouldn’t be the first or last be all and end all technique that is suddenly dropped (looking at you Kaioken and hakai dealing perfected blue). And indeed it was dropped, but the characters were also dropped all together.
My boy Toriyama just didn’t like them enough.
nah fusion was great and gotenks going ssj vs buu was very memorable, otoh super is the series that actually ruined these 2 by having them sit out the top which had their entire universe at stake when they were forced to master fusion in the rime chamber vs lower threat buu, as always super is the problem
It's also a feature of power creep
The problem is that Goku and Vegeta only use fusion as a last resort, and that was the intention for Goten & Trunks, due to the circumstances of Buu being a threat they couldn't prepare for. But because of flanderization, its their first and only option if they ever do anything at all in the franchise now.
I feel one of the biggest issues with the series is that it never paid off the passing of the torch to the next generation they set up. It inheritently makes all of the half saiyans pointless outside of random non canon and debatably canon movies. I feel Gohan should’ve originally took over as MC for the Buu Saga and potentially even Super while Goten and Trunks be the MC’s for GT back in the day. Traveling the galaxy finding Dragonballs and fighting the antagonists at the time would’ve helped grow their characters and powers. The creators could’ve wrote in ways where Goten and Trunks have 1 on 1 battles in these scenarios. Then for the major villains potentially have team ups with Gohan and others in order to take them down
everybody keeps saying it fusion but I don’t think it’s only fusion or primarily even fusion. The fact that's there’s always someone stronger around them means they don’t have to develop. For example Gohan have developed without him being relied on in the sale arc and that’s only because he was considered the strongest with his light abilities. But you can’t continue to use that trope as long as Goku and Vegeta are able-bodied go 10 trun without him being relied on in the sale arc and that’s only because he was considered the strongest with his light abilities. But you can’t continue to use that trope as long as Goku and Vegeta are able bodied Goten and trunks wont develop
In super I would have liked go have seen situations that made them really re think their approach and begin seriously training all over again to raise their power level, or even see their personalities Clash causing tension during their fusion like when Megaman Lan started having issues their two characters with so much potential that need more development trunks should be the successor to Saiyan Pride and Goten has two goals to chase in Goku and Gohan which should be great motivation. Then after over coming these personal battles they fuse back into gotenks or even making the choice not to fuse to propel themselves forward as fighters
Granted you’re right about basically everything but in the manga goten and trunks both fought super broly without fusing if you want the chapter and page lmk.
I won't say Z ruined Goten and Trunks but Super Arcs did.
Most of Z arcs always had that formula to not keep Goku in most of the plot. His involvement is around the climax of the arc. This give chance for other characters take charge in absence of Goku.
In Saiyan Saga, Goku died after his fight with Radiz. He only game back around the end of the arc, this gave characters like Yamcha, Krillin, Tien, Chouzu, Gohan and Piccolo to fight against Nappa. This same formula is also true in Namek, Android and Cell Saga.
But most of Super Arcs keep Goku and Vegita at center stage. Thus not giving chance for other fighters to develop. The only arc that followed the Z pattern was Moro arc, where when Goku and Vegita were off training, Gohan, Piccolo, Android 17 and 18 had their contribution and moments. But Goten and Trunks didn't because even without Goku and Vegita, there were still other fights like Gohan and Piccolo to take charge.
Toriyama should have made Goten way more powerful than Gohan because he started off a super Saiyan and super Saiyan 2 younger than what Gohan was when he was super saiyan super Saiyan 2. He looks exactly like his father so toriyama should have gave him the instinct of that on that needing to get stronger kind of mindset. He should be more powerful than trunks as well because he was younger than trunks when he became super Saiyan. I just don't like how they did Goten I can care less about trunks
Tbh Super ruined these characters. These guys were funny and entertaining in the Buu Saga and showed lots of potential.
I still think they should be galactic patrolmen, I feel like that's an easy way to give them individual struggles while they try to be heroes. You don't have to dedicate an arc to it, just do little cover stories and bonus chapters about what they do to flesh them out as individuals. It honestly hurts me that they haven't done that. Cause it just seems like an easy thing to do. I'll never forget how in dragon ball 100 years after, it was written that they develop a school of swordsmanship, I always thought that made sense and was so cool, nothing has been done with it and it still bothers me. Imagine they meet a tapion like character and trunks learns the way of the sword from him. What if the ki blade was taught to goten by merus? what if they had to deal with ancient monster released to terrorize the citizens of a planet and they had to work together to fight against a kaiju like hirudegarn. I still believe there is potential here, it's just not utilized.
I think that fusion as a concept really made it so much more obvious that power creep was an issue. It gave the message on several occasions that even with two characters combining their strengths they still can't live up to Goku and his accomplishments
OG Dragonball is my favorite Dragonball series. It's like an action comedy. The manga keeps the comedy. The world tournaments are my favorite parts of the series. The original red ribbon saga is really cool. And the battles and adventures were mostly centered around finding the dragonballs. That's a reason I love Dragonball GT. It's like the 1st half of OG Dragonball
First time I fully agree with you man well done. I will go further to say I couldn't care less about them and never have. Future Trunks is a different story he is the man! Future Trunks is my favorite Saiyan-Human hybrid.
Even though bio broly movie catches a lot of hate, I always appreciated that we got to see goten & trunks actually get serious, like genuinely serious and defeat a strong opponent without fusion, wish we got more of that. I also loved the their fight choreography when fighting together against broly.
Goten and Trunks need to become the new faces of the Dragonball franchise. Its time the next generation takeover. I agree Fusion ruined them as it caused them to lose their relevancy as individuals
Goten and Trunks were done dirty
in the Buu saga the moment Chichi died could've been a moment for Goten to go ssj 2 and with their grief of Goten losing his mom and brother and Trunks losing his father this could've driven them to going ssj2 but the writrs botched it with them, in super they gave Goten a chance to train with Goku on Beeruses world but Trunks got him to stay and even later on during the peaceful times they could've taken Goten and Trunks and made them train on beerus planet with Goku,Vegeta and Broly (they've given goten more opportunities to improve than they have trunks and they keep botching it to keep them as a duo, Goten want's to get stronger and has wanted that since he was a kid but never got it and Trunks has wanted it since he was a kid too and stopped really wanting it later on because he wants to impress a girl and he also still never got it)
even in that sparing match with super broly,ui goku,beast gohan, whatever vageta was because i don't think it was shown, trunks and goten, those 2 were actually holding their own from what was shown and still they tease the two's potential yet never show it
(this new arc looks like it could possibly be a change for the boy's because now they realize how far behind they're lacking and want to get stronger(i think), it looked like an opening to change for the two(i so hope it is because again with how op they keep making these two it's crazy, even fighting pretty ok against cell max) also i do hate the superhero stuff with them, with their match against gohan they were too focused on being flashy and not fighting fr fr which seems to be a problem for them and in future could get in the way of actual fights they could potentially face, i do hate the fact they're trying to bring back the fusion trope again, i hope to see more of them as separate characters and for trunks to stop simping for old people)
(as you can see i have hella beef with Trunks x Mai it's just so disgusting and technically pedophelic(only if Mai likes him back that is, like in the future timeline + the future timelines Mai x Trunks makes no sense because mai should either be dead, an old old woman or both, there's no possible way for her to get younger again unless she decided to travel to namek and use those dragonballs since the one's in her time were destroyed year's ago when Trunks was still a baby, i have beef with that plot hole aswell)
now in their arc Trunks in a hardcore simp for grandma Mai and he's pretty stupid(apperantly having bad grades and being dumber than his 2-3yr old sister) with a fear of ghosts somehow despite everything he's seen and been through and he became a hero to save people but also to impress Mai and it seems his priority is so Mai can notice him
now with Goten, he wants to get stronger and isn't out to impress girls, but to save people and get stronger, the problem is they made him a character with little personality(ofc he still has his goofy, carefree self but they didn't do much with him(he's still a better character than Trunks tho)
this is why i like the dragon ball movies, the movies featuring Trunks and Goten actually made them individual characters who are strong on their own and not dependent on their fusion for everything, they didn't even fuse in those 2 movies and their development was great in those, Goten even had moments where he was the one coming up with plans and Trunks where he actually showed how smart he was
the DBZ movies did them justice honestly, too bad they aren't canon
tldr- Trunks and Goten have crazy potential and currently the arc has an opening for them to get stronger, i have beef with Trunks x mai and the future trunks x mai plot hole and DBZ Goten and Trunks are better and have more development than their canon counterparts
(i feel like i wasn't making any sense(i understood myself) so plz tell me if i made any sense)
Goten and trunks need to be like Ryu and Ken as teenagers. Ryu lived in the mountains (just like goten) and Ken lived a lavish life (like trunks). Both these guys train on their own and are rivals. I would have loved to see goten and trunks find a master (similar to master roshi) who trains them, showing them new techniques which leads them down a new path.
I definitely want them to have more development it can be perfecting fusion or individual. They are definitely wasted characters. The fact they are now teens in the Super manga and still can only go Super Saiyan 1 is crazy, ontop of them forgetting how to fuse, and they definitely should have been in the tournament of power, that could've given them great individual growth as well as letting Gotenks shine too. Gotenks vs Kefla would've been such a dope fusion battle
I mostly agree, but another way to look at it, to appreciate them. Is to realise they wouldnt exist if future Trunks didnt come back. Their goofy nature is the result of the relative peace theyve grown up in, that was due to the success of the Z fighters. Goten is a bit bland but he otherwise wouldnt exist. Future Trunks was somber and burdened and robbed of the goofiness he has now. Trunks is now allowed to have a happier life along with Goten.
They could be developed better but I still think their existance serves as a very important reminder of how bleak things would be without the Z fighters and how dangerous the world of Z is.