Cinquedea - Venice's five-fingered dagger of mild doom
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The cinquedea is a weapon I've been asked about a few times, so here, with the help of re-enactors from Malta, I discuss it for you. The main issue is whether or not they were practical weapons.
Lindybeige: a channel of archaeology, ancient and medieval warfare, rants, swing dance, travelogues, evolution, and whatever else occurs to me to make.
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Cinquedea - Venice's five-fingered dagger of mild doom
/ user "Lindybeige"
Is it a sword? Is it a dagger? Or is it swagger?
+Joshua Brown It's a spork :)
+Joshua Brown It's a dord.
+Joshua Brown Oh, pleaaaaase... :D. Nice pun though.
+Joshua Brown This might be the best comment on youtube. It fits so nicely, I'm starting to believe that's exactly what led to its design.
+Joshua Brown Isn't swagger originally an Italian word?
"Ouuhh, look at the decorations on my sword"
- CSGO Community
To think how much technology has advanced and we haven't. :p
@@oz_jones people (me included) like shiny and colourful thingies, just like magpies
"It's a beautiful word to be stabbed by."
Are you bullying those poor re-enactors? XD
Yea, quite rude of him
Weeeeeeell I mean imagining how their costumes and other accouterments might look like validation in the eyes of most tourists (and I very much include myself in that bunch) and how they're saying quite a few inaccurate stuff, I can see where Lindy's frustration comes from
@@MollymaukT Huh. What did they say that was inaccurate?
@@MollymaukT yeah they didnt really say anything that was wrong and he always lead with "we believe"
Lindy was kind of just trying to flex on him. Maybe if he had explained to him why he believed his ideas like he did to us he may have given that man some unknown info.
Idk
@Aléxandros ho Mégas agree 100%
Hes a twat.
But hes our twat.
Another possibility: to make duels less likely to be fatal. Make shallow stab or shallow slash, draw first blood and call it a win.
I was thinking the same thing.
This will definitely makes duel more likely to be fatal. It is like saying that .45ACP is less deadly than 9luger because of its bigger diameter so it will make wider, but more shallow wound. No, it will go thru and just make bigger hole so you will die sooner. Same for this broad short sword - if you put it into someone in some adrenaline situation it would not be shallow, but definitely wider wound. More fatal....
T Koutlosh Did you just compare a Renaissance period blade with a modern day firearms cartridge?
@@alecguevara1835 Yeah, bigger hole != less fatal consequences...
T Koutlosh the amount of energy transferred by a blade is nowhere near the energy transferred by a bullet. You could get shot in the leg and the kinetic energy could cause a heart attack. It’s not about the whole, it’s about energy dispersion.
If this was a civilian weapon I guess the impractical shape of the blade would not have mattered that much, considering civilians do not wear armour when going about their business. I think it is sufficient for a short and brutal scrap between unarmoured men.
Epicurus78
And the bad at chopping or stabbing thing, I don’t think it would impact stabbing too much as it’s a very sharp blade and your opponent isn’t wearing armour. And it might be bad at chopping, but it certainly can slash very well, one would assume it’s fairly wieldy due to the shape.
And the “ineffectiveness” is a bit misleading. A civilian carrying a large axe or spear or mace would truly be ineffective. The effectiveness should be considered relatively to the situations.
I find it kind of sad that Italians wanted to make fancy blades and the best they could come up with is a big fat triangle.
I mean, come on, have you seen those warriors from Hammerfell? They've got curved swords. Curved swords.
Curved swords weren't exactly fancy in the 15th century; the bloody thing were absolutely everywhere...
they made useful weapons and armour. And fancy handles for practical blades.
Big fat triangles.
Just like pizza triangles?
Italian ilerminaty confirmed
Yes certainly, Italians are not known for their style and art totallyXD
DaaaahWhoosh Am I the only one who got this joke? xD
Wouldn't civilian use suggest that the people you fight don't have armor?
that or minimal armor, id say
Spencer Wayman I don’t think people wear even a little bit of armour on the streets of Venice. It would be terribly inconvenient.
@@bowmanc.7439 Well, a thick cloak on a cold day might count as minimal armor.
They did sometimes wear a little mail, which is what the stiletto was for.
Yeah I don't know why he brought up how it wouldn't be effective armor when the dude said it was for city use which means it was civilians weapon more than likely.... weird.
Wonderful insights as usual mate.
Shadiversity thanks for showing me this channel. both of you know your stuff.
It's the Desert Eagle of self defence. It is perfect for confined spaces and close unarmed combat. The also insures wielder when they penetrate victim will be dead. Draw time would be faster than narrower weapon with similars cutting edge length. It would also be resistant to sword breaker technique. Its showy nature also screams out "Man with a very deadly weapon" from a great distance.
One of those Lloyd's videos I completely disagree :D
It is for civilian use, so not exactly against opponent in armour which means you could stab someone with it easily and yes, broad blade will do more significant damage - important thing in selfdefence situation. Thanks to its shape it is fast to unsheathe, broad blade gives some hard parry capability, you can also cut quite well with this blade, just not near the tip and exemplars with bigger guard has pretty good shape for catching and locking narrow rapier blade. Not all of these weapons are highly decorated and some simple pieces with just two grooves looks quite practically designed.
+T Koutlosh
yup... i said much the same 2 years ago lol, i mean the same design was used in copper daggers (although much shorter than many of these).
I demand you two do a episode together in person
Completely agree that the Cinquedea was foremost a showpiece and only second a practical weapon.
The one disagreement I have is your analysis of thrusting weapons and what is desirable. Stabbing weapons, up until the age of plate, tended to broaden quite quickly. A good example is the leaf shaped spear head or a roman gladius. I think this was expressly to limit the depth of penetration. In spite of the drama you would see in a movie or tv show, running someone through is a bad situation. You are liable to lose your weapon if it becomes lodged in their body or if they twist away. The guy's mates might then finish you off or the guy himself might. Running through is no guarantee that the person will expire quickly, or at all.
You don't really see spike-like weapons until the age of plate and I think these weapons were designed to defeat armor, not to cause extra damage to flesh. Once you reach the center of the body, going further doesn't mean much as you've already reached the vitals. Of course if you're making an ever widening wound that might help. Even so, I don't think that's the main point. The rapid widening is there to essentially idiot proof your weapon so in the chaos of fighting you don't lose it in someone else with your adrenaline powered thrusts. Yes, a spike like weapon will reach the vitals easier, but it will not create much of a wound channel either. You could easily miss anything vital - and this has happened in history.
You might say, 'But what about rapiers?'. I think in that case the design focus was on length so wounding efficiency and was sacrificed. You are pretty much forced to have a thin sword if you want it to be as long as possible. Another weapon of note is the pilum, with it's small head. You don't worry about losing your weapon if you're going to throw it anyway. This weapon was designed to defeat shields so it follows that it would be spike-like.
Cheers,
Matt
+Matt Lentzner Running someone through places one in a good position to wrestle, control and protect against the afterblows. Hitting with a weapon someone wrestling with a friend can be dangerous to said friend and problematic. Aside from these nuances, I think you are mostly right.
+Matt Lentzner Plus the wedge shape facilitates pulling it back out for more stabs. Also seems like it would be good at making push cuts.
+Matt Lentzner ill add that considering its a civilian weapon this design means you could use lesser quality steel & still get a rather strong/stiff stabbing weapon... which is in my opinion one of the reasons why this kind of design was used with bronze.
actually the way they are held in shealth coveryng the whole right kidney area i think it is for protection against assasination .
@@blackdeath4eternity I don't think that these expensive highly decorated weapons made by really skillful smiths was from less quality steel. In renaissance it does not much sense...
we know its great because its the best short sword in assassins creed 2...
Nico Kulmann the amount of guards I killed with this thing
It’s also one of the best knives in Final Fantasy Tactics Advance
It's a dagger in AC2, not a short sword.
Uhm excuse you, the Notched Cinquedea is the best DAGGER.
They were made to serve pizzas, duh
They definitely have the shape for it.
Oh, it's a multi-tool. For self-defense, and more importantly for handling pizza slices.
@@jocosesonata Just like those Survival Spades with beer opener
Venice is not Italy.
I came to check for this joke, ty for not disappointing me.
@sick boy you sure about that
Mr. Lindybeige, in Italy we have always loved very much killing each other in many intriguing and imaginative ways, never forgetting the esthetic component (theatrical?) of the matter.
Me - Here's a weapon neither good for chopping nor stabbing.
Friend - What is it good for?
Me - Swagger!
+Caleb Limb This joke didn't contain curved penises though, unfortunately.
+Usammity OR dragons
+Caleb Limb the sword dagger = swagger
Yeet
It in fact was not you, but the youtuber.
Laughed heartedly at the interruption of the drum sequence :-D.
It's a blade for a more civilized time, they used it to resolve dispute by playing an ancient form of ping-pong.
Ceremonial ping-pong dagger
An elegant weapon for a more civilized age
"this chap carrying some timber..."
At this point I paused to laugh.
It's funny because it was one of the best short swords in Assassin's Creed.
Go figure.
Assassin's Creed isn't completely accurate... but it us a nice dagger.
I think the weight close to the handle would be useful in a close environment like an alley, and it brings the center of rotation closer th the grip so it can parry quickly. You'd still need some muscle to use it right though.
Bill Cornelius I thought of this as well. Combined with what the guy after you says, it would be a good alley and city defensive weapon. Having the mass to guard against heavier weapons, but having that mass concentrated near the hilt would make it very responsive. Couple that with training to 'snap' the weapon with a strong wrist flick, it could deal serious damage against unarmoured targets without needing the space to 'wind up' and swing something like a longsword or top heavy axe. Fitting very well into the alley-fighting role.
1600s advertisement be like
"Are you an explorer?
An adventurer?
A manly man who likes to be practical AND awesome?
Are you making plans for an exposition to the exotic American islands but are not sure about the gear you are going to take with?
meet the Cinquedea!! *woooooOOOSH*
Ladies and lords this is how it looks like when a dagger and a sword have a baby after a long process of sweet sweet love makingly smithing that can only be achieved by the ultimate technologies of the 16th century!
Live the future of modern warfare now! With the light flat bladed high quality steel cooled in blessed holy water with elegant wooden handle that can fit in your hands without letting them show how fat they really are!!
Stranded in an island filled with cannibals?
No problem!!
Now with this little thing you can kill them all AND use it as a portable rowing paddle and go home on a boat made of their dead bodies!
wait
what?
Does your wife make fun of your short thin dagger but she also didn't like her ex's longsword either?
Show your wife how you can still stay short but become thicker!
"oh m-lord! how thick this is!! oh my!"
NOW available with an elastic scabbard!!
*hhhsssshshhiiiiiing* - "hell yeah baby, get ready for some spanking"
Send your pigeon NOW at 999th pinkcastle rock of scamville to get this special offer with only 3 marks of silver!!
*marvin gaye's sexual healing music in the background*"
:- )
were those 12 likes worth the time you spent composing and formatting that?
Katherine Clairmont had no idea until now. im surprised it even got likes. was something that came to me at random and just felt like sharing it, thought nobody would even see it cause its an old video :)
Ha ha, hilarious!
Dimitri Balerinas the perfect description for a weapon that sould have been called the swagger dagger
And the drumming bit is why i watch this channel. thanks again
SWORD +DAGGER = SWAGGER!
dord
dwagger
It's a slashing, or drawing cut. Which isn't terribly effective against Armor, but was primarily for Defensive fencing, and Parrying. (They're also very nice for engraving) but the primary reason for the shape was for Balance. As stated, in close-quarters. It's a defensive weapon. Also, held back-grip, you can brace the blade down your forearm, as an improvised blocking, not unlike a buckle-shield. (With your fingers, and hand exposed.) It's extremely fast swinging, which makes it incredibly effective defending against light fast swords of the period. Which are also carried, with the Cinquedea. (In period paintings, and embroidery that show them.} So, basically a fast close quarters defensive weapon for civilian not fighting armor, nor particularly concerned about effectively killing someone. Instead of going unarmed, with cutpurses, and so forth about. As far as I can tell, most of the period pictures I've seemed, I would think were for gentry worried about the Poor, who can't afford swords, nor armor. I've used them in reenacting, it'll stop a 2 handed swing with a baseball bat if you know how. Easily my favorite sword ever, if a bit narrow niche.
Nice shirt. What colour is it?
+Aramiro Butternut beige?
Lindybeige
Terrifying.
+Lindybeige where did you get it from it looks very frilly, I may wear one for work.
+Xollob2 he making them himself! Look for video in the channel how to make them!
+ScienceDiscoverer He's given a video on how to dye shirts beige, and how to reshape a collar, but none that I can find on making the one he's wearing in this video.
help
Get a pork roast with the skin on, wrap it in a couple layers of cloth and stab it with the cinquedea and see what happens. Something tells me it will go right through and leave a massive gaping wound.
+VERY NIIICE I'm serious by the way I think it would make for a lovely lindybeige video
+VERY NIIICE Clothe a pig carcass in thick renaissance clothing, and try to stab it through the ribs five times in five seconds. Repeat the experiment with a normal dagger...
+Lindybeige The normal dagger will get caught in between the ribs, whereas this one you can easily remove from the wound.
Szilard Bokros I would think the normal dagger would slide in between the gaps in the ribs easier
+Szilard Bokros A wider blade would actually be much more difficult to pull out due to the larger friction which is caused by an increased surface area in contact with/wedged inside the bone lol.
Hi Lindy, I really think you're not right on this one...basically, if it was used for civilian defense, why would it have to pierce armour? Also, civilian weapons are not necessarily great at war...if it were so, then why would rapiers have ever been invented? thanks for the cool upload
+Tomás Newland People often wore thick clothing, and even a naked man has curving ribs. A widening blade is also more likely to get stuck.
+Tomás Newland I agree with the fashion element. Nice fancy big dagger shows how rich and important you were.
+Tomás Newland I believe that's the point he was making. All things considered, it is not a terribly effective shape for actually killing people, be it military (for which it was not used) or civilian (for which it was, but i have to guess, not often or terribly well). In short, there are any number of small weapon designs which would work better for the purpose of a weapon (i.e. killing) so it is not hard to believe that the major purpose of this weapon fell outside that, in the realm of ostentation.
*****
Hi, great comment. My question is...since this weapon has a widening blade...and it's mostly thrust centric, how easily could it have pierced through the armour of the time?? seems to me the widening blade would be great to injure an unarmoured man, but it would be really hard to pierce through plates, chainmail or modified clothing with interior armour, and then keep going in...quite sure the amount of strenght one would have to apply would make it difficult to use in practice. Not argueing against the fact that it looks great as a fashion weapon. Cheers
*****
thanks a lot. makes sense and is really informative
I have to disagree, I believe that in self defence you want to cause as much pain as possible to incapacitate your attacker. Also a thin blade is good against armour but that wide blade would cause alot of pain to an unarmoured robber.
Joseph Stalin thanks for the opinion Stalin
You need a certain amount of mass in your weapon to make an effective cover against someone else who also has a weapon. A large bowie knife usually does the trick, and this follows the same principle. Why weren't they used in war? I think it's because a soldier could carry a shield without looking like a huge jerk, and anyone with a shield has no need for such a defence-oriented weapon. Rapiers weren't preferred battlefield weapons either, and we know they were immensely practical.
Edit: replaced an S in defence with a C.
+Will Richter By this time period shields were obsolete due to advanced plate armour and the emergence of gun powder weapons. Rapiers did see usage on the battlefield primarily as side arms as they were light and convenient to carry. However as they were a thrusting weapon, soldiers in formation preferred things with a longer reach (cavalry used lances or longer swords that could also cut well whilst infantry had pikes and bayoneted muskets).
+iseeyou1312 The shield was not obsolete; there are paintings of soldiers using shields and manuals for the use of the shield, as well as surviving artifacts from the period in question. A rapier is NOT light OR convenient; it is as heavy as any other sword, as well as bulky at the hilt and it sticks out four feet behind you if it's in a hanger. It's just really good for killing people, keeping you safe, and looking good.
However I'm not trying to compare a rapier to a cinquedea, or say who's using a shield or gun or spear and who's not. I'm merely pointing out the fact that if you're a civilian and you can only carry one thing, it has to pull double duty as offence and defence, and if you're a soldier, you have specialized tools.
+iseeyou1312 Look up rotella, buckler and target. All types of shield that were used at the same time, and in fact far, far outstripped the cinquedea in their popularity, geographic dispersion, and longevity.
+Will Richter George Silver would disagree with your assessment of rapiers :P You don't need mass for parrying so much as you need the right leverage, which comes from positioning. You can parry a blow with a 7lb montante but it isn't going to do you much good if you catch it three inches from the tip. Bowie knives and parrying daggers work on this principle. They are so short that if you catch a blow on them you will be within what would be the forte of a sword and have good leverage to manage the impact of the blow. Swords aren't like maces and hammers - they don't hit all that hard and are relatively easy to stop. All the damage comes from the cutting edges, not the momentum of the blow.
Rapiers were very common battlefield sidearms from the late sixteenth century to the mid-seventeenth century, especially for officers and even cavalry.
2:16 "But by the time you've got to the really wide bit... you've already stabbed it right through him, haven't you?"
"Yes" *deadpan, as if that's all part of the fun*
"This guy in the background carrying some timber" xD Made my day
+bakke601 :D
If it really was made for (fancy) civilian defense and not killing, maybe it being less lethal by being wider was intentional?
Or because it was civilian blade it was expected to be used as a tool.
Over time if you sharpened the blade it would become thinner and shorter. Where a regular blade would very quickly snap after becoming too thin, this Cinquedea could be sharpened until it was only a couple inches long.
Like this.
Top knife is new, bottom knife is the same type of knife after 3 years
i.imgur.com/EiQnGu3.png
Obviously its a chef knife so it gets used constantly, but it could be the same idea with the cinquedea.
With it being highly decorated. It might've just been a fashion statement. It might started as a genuine civilian self defense weapon. But as time goes by people start to put their personal touch on it and then they want wider and wider blade (aka think of it like a canvas to draw on) to put more decorations. Sort of like Saddam Hussein's gold AK, or silver 1911 of today.
No I'm pretty sure it was used for cutting and serving pie, it has the perfect pie-slice shape!
It's Italy man it serves pizza pie
One thing these daggers might be good at would be threatening people who are not wearing armour, and not threatening people who *are* wearing armour. That is, for stabbing plebs while being no threat to the cops (such as they were).
But yeah - swag factor seems to be a better explanation.
Very interesting! I think the design has more combat applications than are first apparent. Note the moment around 2:10 where the re-enactor demonstrates a low thrust. His thumb is over the guard, just on the blade. This is also how the Indonesian Kris is held when stabbing upward. This is to allow the "beating parry" seen in, say Main Gauche styles, but regain control for thrusts.
The Kris is also worn just as you show in the painting, and is also considered a "status/rank civilian weapon" with a wide-based decorated blade. The Kris draw teaches you to turn the torso slightly while clearing the space to your right with a low elbow strike as the hand moves to draw the blade.
Another really important parallel to note is the sudden widening of the blade near the bottom of all Kris, giving nearly the same tip:base-length ratio as the Cinquedea. This is not a damage-focused design, it is a deflection-focused design. It means that you can counter any thrust made at you by binding them and then thrusting forward yourself with only the slightest sideways movement. The "ramped" edge turns your forward thrusting momentum, and their forward thrusting momentum, into sideways deflecting force.
The earlier version of this dagger, which didn't quite have to deal with 14th century blades, is the Greco-Roman-Etruscian Parazonium.
The notion that "if it was a good weapon it'd be used on the battlefield" is very wrong. Many otherwise very good weapons are not practical for the battlefield. Look at modern military rifles for example; they're not the best rifles available, not the most accurate, high capacity, made of the best materials, and certainly not the most advanced or tactically specialised, but they' are standardised, reliable, and very rugged.
Granted, battlefield weapons of the 16th century were far from standardised, but the point is the requirements of the battlefield are different from the civilian world.
Obviously they were mainly for show and their adoption was driven by fashion, as you say, but we have no notion of their efficacy (or lack of it), as a weapon.
+ultraboy222 and that is why the ak-47 is such a widespread weapon. well, there were some historical and political reasons as well, but it is cheap as hell, reliable and good enough for up to 300m.
i remember watching a video, years ago, when the h&k g11 was considered for the advanced combat rifle program and they were showing off the rotating chamber and all the clockwork mechanisms that went into it and i was thinking to myself "no soldier is ever going to strip and clean such a thing in the field". pity, though, cause there were so many innovative technologies involved in that rifle.
+Ozoneocean MJM But the best rifles available/most accurate are used on the battlefield, just by specialised persons.
Only to an extent and with qualifiers- i.e. the most accurate, rugged, standardised, production rifles. More accurate rifles are used on rifle ranges. More accurate still are used only in competition shooting, THE most accurate are custom built bench rifles that are far too expensive and awkward to be used anywhere BUT a range.
+Ozoneocean MJM Assault rifles work well in war, so they get used in war. Soldiers carry them. Armies are not armed with pistols. Armies did not take to the field with plain cheap cinqudeas either.
@@lindybeige I could be wrong about this, but that thing looks ideal for ambushing a soft civillian belly in a dark alleyway. And making sure he doesn't get up again.
But... did it have an unscrewable pommel for the narrow street-fights at a range?
You start by saying it isn't good because it wasn't used in military combat and therefore wasn't terribly useful. You back this up by describing how it wouldn't be useful for stabbing in military combat due to the amount of armor an opponent was wearing, but would civilians be wandering around Venice in heavy armor? I would think that a weapon suited for stabbing people in cloth garments could be quite good at it's job while being quite poor against heavy armor. Perhaps wide blades like this are more useful against unarmored opponents than narrower blades.
awe man, watching your videos really does make me happy.
Weren't these some kind of attempted revival of the old Roman pugio?
"There's a bloke carrying a bit of timber" Oh my, that was awesome.
Is it possible that maybe there was a law, at that time, that allowed civilians to carry them for the simple purpose that it would be quite difficult to conceal a weapon of that size/shape?
I think just the element of psychological intimidation was a big factor for this. It's easy for the average person to underestimate the slim, toy-like build of a smallsword, or even a rapier, but not even the most clueless person can look at this monster and pretend that it's build to do anything other than leave you very, very dead... regardless of whether or not it was actually good at the task.
just a slight amount of doom
Your channel is full of interesting stuff and thought's! To witness your new videos is a rewards itself!
"If they were good, they would be used in war". This is the same way that a shotgun is a bad weapon, because it is not issued to all of the soldiers in the army. But you can etch and ornament a shotgun. That must be the only reason that shotguns are popular for home defence.
100% Agree. He then criticises it for it's armour piercing qualities... when used against other civilians.
Shotguns have been used in war, though, so... huh?
They are very specialised, in situations like home defense they excell, while in anything "ranged" they get the downside. For opening doors or lobbing big rubber prijectiles they are fairly good though.
Shotguns are not allowed for military use due the convention of Geneva. They shoot "brocken" bullets and are "Inumane weapons" like the saw or needle/cross bayonets. In the WWI soldiers captured with a shotgun was killed on the spot.
@@lucamarialanza7319 shotguns were completely legal and still are. what you are referring to is germany being pissed at the americans for having a effective weapon so the tried to get it banned, that failed so they said they would kill anyone possessing it.
7:00
"Stopping the blade before it comes out of its sheathe."
To be fair, you could say that about any weapon that's carried in a holster.
+Cielo Pachirisu That and if you or a teammate of yours can get behind someone before he can draw/ready which ever weapons he uses, that person is screwed almost no matter what...
Hrmm. Maybe the "feature" is indeed a feature instead of a bug. If these are "spiffy-awesome civilian weapons" actually *killing* the other person leads to messy things like vendetti and other wrothful retaliation by said dead guy's family. By widening, not only do you get more bling, but less chance of vendetta without *saying* so. It also may be mildly more comfortable to sit on?
Just clicked through all your vids and gave a thumbs up to every single one. That was long due.
Keep up the great work!
It was for pizza cutting :P
Hi Lindy,
as Wendelin Boeheim wrote in his handbook of weapon lore (1890): The Cinquedea has its origin in the renaissance of the late roman parazonium and appeared first in the area of Venice and Florence in the 14th century as a close quarter combat weapon used by peasents. It became quite popular and spreaded quick over Europe from Italy over France and Burgund to Germany and Spain. There's a lot of names: english: Anelace, french: langue de boeuf, spanish: pistos, german: Ochsenzunge (ox tongue), czech: veruna. So it wasn't only used in Italy.
Pure assumption: Maybe the broad side was used in the attempt to parry a stabbing dagger.
You know, everything about that weapon screams "Defensive tool" for me. The balance of weight near the grip makes it far harder for an untrained by comparison civilian to drop their weapon during a disarm or parry. Long blade to help aid catching an attack on it without being so long that you cannot easily maneuver it in tight quarters. I could see this being used in a sort of offhanded style like the Rapier+Main Gauche combo you usually see out there. Where the blade is used more as a defense.
As well as serving just the general psychological deterrent of "OMG, that guy has a cutty stabby thing. I don't want to get cut or stabbed, I better leave them alone!" kind of reaction that people tend to have when it comes to criminals, thugs looking for a fight, etc.
Anyone else use this in AC2 ?
Nah, I prefer the Sultan's knife
Ah yes. AC2 where you can carry an assload of weapons while freeclimbing. It's like you're a walking armory
+Lindybeige
in close quarters with little room to manoeuvre it would be advantageous to have a shield to block an advancing blade. I believe this is why the blade is so broad at the Base. it serves as a shield from which you can parry and strike. also this is why they have the fluting "fingers" which would ensure the point of your opponents dagger didn't skip off into your gut regardless of your block.
This means the replica that guy had which he called simplified, in fact lacked the fluting which made the broad blade useful.
great channel :)
What was the talk about armour and the cinquedea going through it? Because if we are talking metal armour...well it wouldn't get get very far in general, it would likely bend or break if you try to stab through it. Now movie style leather armour maybe. Also...it clearly isn't meant to be used against armour. After all it is carried by civilians, who aren't very likely to wear armour in their day to day life. And while yes, it might have some difficulty getting through skin and possibly clothes,but if it is meant as a fighting weapon, it is obviously meant to be used against an opponent not wearing armour.
I enjoy your sense of humor, great video.
Italian guy seems very calm about stabbing all the way through a person.
he's maltese!
Damn right.
I'm pretty sure he, in that moment, became self aware. He realized he's sounding like an idiot.
2:20 "Yes "
Such a perfectly detailed response
Its the equivalent of gold plating a colt .45.
AND TWO ZIG ZAGS BABY THATS ALL WE NEED
Thank you so much for doing a piece on a weapon that gets a lot less attention than it should!
i remember this weapon from Assassin's Creed II
Oh yes, these were great fun... Most of the time in AC2 I just used a short blade instead of a sword, because the short blade's anims were so much nicer.
+Pinkaugust agreed
I like the people you find, they all seem like they want to teach and have a laugh
That's a big fancy dagger. Overcompensating for something?
+Yoriko Arran I think you're on to something here ;)
+Yoriko Arran Cinquaedas weren't for overcompensating. We're talking about the time of Zweihanders after all.
True but you would not be toting around a zweihander at all times much like you would not with a spear or those well decorated bladed polearms. When you're strutting your stuff in the city this giant fancy dagger is ideal for making the men gossip about it and the women swoon!
Yoriko Arran then I'll use a cinquaeda of the size of a zweihander. So much room for bling bling on it. Problem solved
Lindy I was absolutely crying with laughter at the drumming part
I bet soldiers in towns loved it when these became popular with civilians. Against any sort of armor or shield they'd be extremely ineffective for stabbing, and useless for slashing. A drunken jackass making trouble would be a lot less risky to arrest if you could bet he had this type of sword.
***** Of course that would be easier (it would be even easier if they surrendered peacefully and walked to jail on their own). It's historically very hard to convince people to have no weapons at all. Letting them have crappy weapons is a great compromise. Over confidence is a possible side bonus.
+Joshua Pearce The cinquedea was a parade sword. It was carried by nobility.
+Joshua Pearce I don't think your local town militia was clad in full armor all day long, if any. Maybe a tabard if the town wasn't too poor or independent.
Also I don't think the idea of a town guard was very prominent. Maybe, just maybe in some German towns later on, but for the most part the local baron's entourage was the law.
And Italian cities were fond of condottieri, but they were mercenaries.
+CottonPanzer Venice had a military which made up the city guard, how do you think they went to war with the ottomans? They had a fairly large one for the period I might add.
It's thrusting portion would be effective in the point going back a few inches. Cuts would be from the top 1/3rd to the halfway point. The wide base would primarily be for strength for defense and to prevent snapping near the hilt. Not the most practical design, but similar in concept to medieval arming swords with a triangular shape. Stabby points, cuts near the top and mid section, wide and strong base for defense.
I wonder if there was some legal requirement that caused the design to be used by civilians.
+OakInch Seeing as how the law didn't usually apply to the nobility for such things, and that's where the Cinquedea got it's customer base, no.
+OakInch I'm going with Italian posturing. "I'm louder than you, flashier than you and my dagger is bigger than your dagger."
+Future Jeffersоn Now that would be very bloody Italian ;)
"There's this guy in the background carrying some timber." Solid burn there, Lloyd.
K feg
Playing Age of empires on random, and got Italians just as this video came up!
Time-a for a pasta!
I teach self defense and concealed carry classes. I test different blades, guns, ammunition, etc. and, having testes a blade this shape, I can assure you the blade shape in question is actually pretty good for making deep wide wounds on unarmored meat. It's long enough to get through heavy clothes and wide enough to block something a bit longer and heavier, like a stick, or long blade.
As a civilian weapon it might be well suited for cutting in the same was a simitar or saber is used for cutting rather sthan hacking or chopping. If you and you friends were indeed face to face with your rivals in a narrow alley way and you wanted to lay about you with a weapon it might have seemed just the thing, until someone pointed out that other less expensive weapons were just as effective and the Cinquedea went out of fashion.
Also, as a civilian weapon it would not likely be covered in fencing books of the time because it didn't fit in with any fencing styles.
If it were an effective weapon, they would create a style around it suited for the weapon
Re: Mr. Lloyd’s plan, there’s actually a saying in Spanish that deals with exactly that situation. It comes from Argentina, where knives were also traditionally worn behind the back, with the handle sticking out towards the dominant side. “Que no te ganen el lado del cuchillo”; roughly translated as “let no man overtake you on the side you wear your knife”.
The Cinqueda is the counterpart to what in Texas we call a "Barbeque Gun" embellished, perhaps even beautiful, but mostly to serve as a manly conversation starter.
You have impeccable timing.. and delivery is astounding ..
Gotta love the Brits..
You can put this Cinquedea flat on a pizza, the point to the middle and cut around with a "real" knife perfectly shaped pizza slices.......I guess.....
After spending quite some time sifting through your channel I've found you to be a varied and peculiar individual.
Is it a dagger? Is it a sword? Shortsword proficiency, duh!
The shape makes me think about punch daggers. Was it designed to minimize the chances of being stuck? A quick poke and run?
Either that or a secondary function for emergency gardening.
+27182818284590452354e-19 It's Italian, so it's clearly designed to double as an implement to cut and serve pizza slices.
+lancer D i was about to say it's a spade for digging... but your pizza idea takes the price and all my likes, Sir.
it even has the fitting shape so you can mesure your pizza slices perfectly. five fingers broad, perfect fit for your hand!
+lancer D I would definitely buy a cinquedea just to cut and serve pizza.
I noticed a point about, well, the width. If it gets harder as you stab deeper, that means in a fight it'll be more difficult to KILL your opponent, rather than to wound him. So as a deterrent it's more effective for disabling without killing.
It doesn't get harder as you stab deeper... the blade is triangular, there's nothing in its profile that makes resistance.... the enemy meats would Just slide around the blade...
effectiveness of weapon not determined by whether used in war or not but by being fit for purpose. Certain kinds of weapon used by commoners/civilians utilised to works around law as lindybeige himself pointed out in another video. Cinquedea may have avoided law against non nobles/aristocrats etc carrying sword. Not designed as a battlefront weapon against armoured foes but very effective for unarmoureded street fighter bravos.
I think if you watch videos of Cold Steel's cinquedea, you would correct yourself on several points.
1) It is a VERY practical chopper. It can cut a half mat with ease. You can't put the weight up front, or you wouldn't be able to do the next...
2) It is a very practical stabbing weapon. Mine is 14 1/2" long, and at just over a foot it is a great stabbing blade.
3) This was not a military weapon, and was designed to use against unarmored opponents.
I've been practicing with mine for several days now and find it to be a superior weapon for the period. The only blades I have that rival it, are modern and have "D-guards" giving more blocking power and adding the ability to punch.
You need to think in terms of urban combat. This was not a battlefield weapon.
Swagger Dagger?
neither a sword, nor a dagger, a swagger.
the drum roll part made me crack up. Such ingenius use of footage for comedy
could you tell us about that shirt?
It's the kind of shirt you would only wear if you were fighting in a spare bedroom in Newcastle, because it has a lot of room for decoration on it.
Are you kidding me, Lindybeige? This is the perfect everyday carry defense “short sword”. Short enough to carry comfortable, and a hefty enough tool to ward off all but the most well equipped opponents. Granted, it’s not going to fare well against a true sword, but put it into the context of a street brawl, perfectly handy. If it were legal, I’d imagine I’d carry something quite similar.
Pizza server?
Another negative of the behind-the-back carry - if one is attacked from the front, the last thing you would want to do is stop fending off your attacker with both hands in order to reach behind your back to draw your weapon. This offers an opening for the attacker to press forward and take advantage of the fact that (for the moment) you only have one hand with which to defend yourself. This would be compounded if the attacker has closed in to grappling distance from the first, or worse yet you've been knocked down and are perhaps flat on your back, trying to grab and draw a weapon that might well have shifted out of position and thus completely inaccessible with either hand.
Carrying a sheathed weapon with the handle pointing forward of the hips makes for a much faster draw, and allows for either the right or left hand to be used to access the weapon if required.
Behind-the-back carry has some advantages, but mainly it's in keeping the weapon out of the way if you're primarily engaged in doing something else. That might be why people carried it in this fashion - especially if it is indeed a civilian weapon.
I always loved the Chinquadea...But I had never considered most of this!!! Bravo sir....
I'm a bit late, once again, but I was thinking from the relative point of view from the blade. once you start cutting into an armor or person with such a thickening blade, the shape will force the blade to perform its cutting action because of the aforementioned relative motion compared to the opponent.
It was meant to overcome parrying daggers. If exam the parrying dagger of that time they were designed to hook blades. An opponent with a narrow blades a like a sabers and rapier once entangles could be disarmed or have weapon damaged. The cinqueadea has a convex core structure with a bevel lattice bevel to reduce weight but maintain strength. The tip geometry and edge geometry is stout this weapon was designed to withstand impact and not bite or bind. It acted like a hollow point. Most swords out preform cinqueadea used alone. but when paired with a parrying dagger it become a challenge.One would a use a gladiolus or spatha forms in combat, After the one parries he attempt to stab stab his opponent.
I loved the drumming bit, great sense of humor :D
My theory is that it's so thick and large as an answer to the cudgel in street fighting. So it doesn't need to be the sharpest thing in the world, you can swing it and use its force, and it it capable of cutting and stabbing if you need it to, but it can provide some weight and heft against a big stick. It's also balanced and must be like a somewhat manoeuvrable baton.
I saw very similar "daggers" in taiwans national meuseum, it was ceremonial dagger that had evolved from more practical ones to allow for decoration, I think they where made to be buried with . They had a range of them showing the narrow ones at the start evolving over time to very wide triangular blades without hilts
It also seems to be the kind of blade that LOOKS intimidating. That wide of a blade can be seen from a long way off, whereas a thinner blade might not even be noticed until it's already in your chest. These things WERE for show. Also, when nobody is wearing armor, the wide blade does a pretty good job of making a shallow but painful enough wound that it'd deter anyone who wanted your bling.
Lloyd, there is something about that blade which you didn't address. You overlooked an advantage to the shape of the blade over 'parallel' edged blades: Speed of removal from your target. When you have a straight blade, it needs to have a certain groove or ripple in it in order to easily extract it. Blood and flesh have a tendency to suction the blade inserted. That is why there are blood grooves in long swords. Even a dagger can be stuck in a target and if you have trouble extracting your blade from enemy #1, enemy #2 kills you. The tapering shape makes for faster extraction. I have a 'wide' dagger in my collection though it isn't 5 fingers wide, it does have the benefit of being able to avoid the 'stuck in target' feeling.
"Theres this guy in the background carrying some timber" I died so hard at that!
yeah baby ... look at the veiny decoration on my blade
The idea I first had was that it was just a good way to show that you are armed. The wider the more visible. Same with it being on the back. However it's still usable unlike a longsword. Could it all just come down to a matter of proving you are armed and the decorations came as a coincidence?
I would disagree with both "not good for chopping not thrusting". Through that shape, it creates a gradually wider wound, which may be good for incapacitating an unarmored person. By being so wide at the strong, it also increases the weight of the weapon, thus its cutting potential. By being short, it cannot have too much lever anyway to cause a significant damage with a motion from the wrist. However, if you swing it from the shoulder, the mass and distance from the center of rotation suddenly becomes a lot more, enabling powerful cuts.
It may have also given a perspective of a much longer sword thats been foreshortened as it recedes into the distance. So it look big and long as an illusion and the glinting adds to its presence. Now a days, we can tell that it is clearly odd looking, but maybe to people back then, it seemed a lot bigger than the daggers people typically wore as their EDC blade.
They used a wider blade for the same reason some police prefer a .44 or .45 over a 9mm. People take a surprisingly long time to die. Even if you stab them very deep or right through. The wider blade facilitated faster blood loss, which lead to them going into shock (and stopping fighting sooner). This is valuable in a street fight.
Um.. more invaluable in a street fight is completely removing the threat. Doesn't matter between killing and maiming. And the speed/velocity of a bullet makes the gun a moot point. The point is it would take far more effort to penetrate skin deeply when stabbing with this. You aren't shooting it out of a gun, you're shoving a knife. And the less effort you have to use, the less time it takes to inflict blows, and the more mobility you have to avoid enemy strikes. Bit like a sword duel. That's the whole peeve over impractical fantasy weapons that would never see actual battle
Huh, well. Venetian street fighters carried this weapon for ~120 years. I'll take their opinion over yours. Trust me, the blade is plenty easy to stab with. The triangular shape made it easier to cut through leather jerkins/cloth and made a bigger wound for more blood loss.
ajaxjs
Oh really? So did you not watch the video at all? Also, there's a video made about combat scythes, which are a useless and hardly ever used 'weapon' and a version of the Indian katars that included a spring opening blade; an invention that never saw combat and was merely made up by the Indians because they knew British tourists were suckers for impractical but seemingly brutal weapons. They weren't meant to see battle, and weren't practical in the slightest, but they were still created because somebody was smart enough to know how to get rich idiots to give them money. And also, you apparently haven't ever tried to stab/cut anything like humans/meat. As somebody who has worked with cutting meat, let me assure you it can be surprisingly difficult with blades actually designed to cut them and which are actually razor sharp. You can't cut through meat like it's hot butter, doubly true when you add things like ribs and other protection. So keep up your delusion, amateur, but don't talk so smugly about something you have little experience about
Wearing a short blade behind you is a pretty good idea, actually. If it's meant to be used for an ice-pick style stab, you can easily grab it and draw it in reverse grip, making the attack a fairly fluid motion. And, as opposed to going for your hip, it may not be immediately obvious what you're doing if you go to draw it.
It's also really handy if you're wielding a polearm. If someone gets inside your reach, keep the weapon held in your off hand, then with your main hand go fro your dagger and stab them before they know what's what.