Star Trek Criminals : Massacre of the Maquis
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 พ.ย. 2017
- This will be the last video from the 'Star Trek Criminals' series on the Maquis. We'll be talking about the Massacre of the Maquis and how Starfleet let them to their fate.
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The Maquis was an interesting idea that was bungled more often than not. They went to all that trouble of setting them up to lead in to Voyager, then that whole idea manages to play a role in about 6 or 7 out of 168 episodes of that show, and end up almost an afterthought on the show that spawned them in the first place. One thing about them that bugged me was, while the shows were telling us the Maquis were rejecting the Federation, in practice (Eddington excluded) it seemed less like "the Maquis hate the Federation," and more "the Maquis loved the Federation once but were becoming disillusioned."
Also, and to be fair to the show's creators this is more hindsight than anything else, it would've been nice if the show had made it explicit that had Wolf 359 not happened the Federation would've never signed that treaty that left so many Federation citizens stuck in Cardassian space. The Federation would still have tried to use diplomacy to avoid a war, but they would've come to the bargaining table with a much stronger hand to show for it with 30+ fully staffed and armed starships backing them up.
The Maquis left paradise, and you can never leave the paradise. They tried to leave the supposedly perfect federation society. That's the one unforgivable sin of the federation. So they left them to die. They could've supported the Maquis and protected them, given them weapons and support, and helped them to fight off a guirella war against the cardassian/dominion forces. But starfleet, the federation, being an unwieldy bureaucracy, probably thought it would be better to place nice and not offend the new threat, in hopes of diplomacy. Or.. they just said, well, this will take care of the maquis, the fallen angels of the federation. "Look in the mirror Admiral the federation is OLD." lol.
The mistake of the Maquis started all the way back at the end of the Cardassian Wars. The Federation did it's thing and then was like 'you guys just have to trust us'. But that's just it, they expected blind faith from the colonists, who were used to having the security of the Federation, and then when they CHOSE to stay (they could literally relocate to anywhere) they whined about no longer having that security. So, they decided to fight to keep their homes, but the fight was just an outlet of anger over something they had no control over. The problem with 'revolutions' like the Maquis is simple... they didn't know what they want. They wanted to 'punish' Cardassians and wanted their territories...but that means...what? Genocide of all Cardassians? The Federation being broken and made to recognize the Maquis as independent by virtue of terrorist action? Yeah, that sounds Feesible.
Eddington joined the Maquis because he wanted to be a 'hero', but there is no such thing as a romantic war. And the Dominion played them as the fiddle to the Klingon War Drums.
Useful Idiots, the Maquis. And had it not been for Section 31 and several major strokes of luck on the Federation Side, THEY would have been just as responsible for the Dominon Victory as the Klingons.
Thanks for your videos. I look forward to the Maquis series as I’m interested in learning more about them
Glad you enjoy..my most recent is an updated version of this..so itll be fun
I think the blatant mishandling of the Maquis by the Federation and by Starfleet was meant to show that the truth of the matter was that humans were still human, and that they faced the same problems internally and socially that we do today. The Federation and Starfleet were to a great extent so unyieldingly bound to their virtues and on top of that so politically motivated, that they simply failed to take a prudent course of action in a timely manner.
I wanted to play the clip - but I couldn't (THANKS CBS) - but I think its really telling in one of the last episodes with the maquis where sisko and eddington are fighting jem'hadar and sisko hesitates as he is over the bodies of some dead people and he looks at eddington and says (paraphrased) 'I don't know.. Maybe we all failed them'.. I think he kind admits here that starfleet dropped the ball.
They traded the lives of the Maquis for continued peace with the Cardassian Union. It was a dirty play by the Cardassian union to look the other way while aiding cardassian gangs covertly in order to purge the Maquis from the demilitarized zone. The Cardassian Union bartered war with the lives of the Maquis, and the Maquis got the short end of it for formal peace.
But the Federation didn't need peace with the Cardassian union. In the end they sacrificed the lives of their citizens in order to look less confrontational.
At the time, the Federation was more worried about the Borg and the Romulans.
It didn't help that the federation is socialist shit hole, sure earth is a Paradise but they drop the outer colonies. If it was some British official demanding Canadians Australians and New Zealanders leave their homes you bet we would fight for them
I would categorize the Maquis were freedom fighters because they targeted mostly tactical and military targets. And historically terrorists focus specifically on civilians
I would disagree with that - I think the tactics used. The Maquis could be categorized as freedom fighters.. I don't disagree there.. but they did use terroristic tactics. Additionally - They did target civillians if they had to.
Kira made the point in the show that there is no practical difference between a terrorist or a freedom fighter. You have to be willing to attack civilian targets, or your opponent will just stick a few civilians at all their military targets, and you'd be useless.
The escalation of prolonged combat into total war was something Gene Roddenberry understood.
they seem to have no problem targeting citizens
The writers fell down on the job by forcing the fake moral dilemma. Dukat's reaction to civilian deaths was totally out of character. He'd been doing it for 4 seasons already and now he sprouts a conscience? Lame.
Wow that was unbelievably complicated and unbelievably in-depth
Some aspects of the Federation are really stupid. Starfleet pretty much threw them to the wolves!
One flaw in your analysis. I don't think Starfleet had the ability to do anything to stop the Dominion at that point. They were so fast that nothing could done.
Starfleet was in a bind, the Federation had to settle for an imperfect peace treaty with the Cardassians. Pacifist nature aside, this occurred not long after Wolf 359 and Starfleet saw the Borg as a bigger threat and probably didn't want to get tided down in another Cardassian Border War. The Maquis were an unstable element in the Federation's eyes, even though they had left the Federation to fight the Cardassians, the latter didn't really distinguish them as being a rogue element, so Starfleet had to stop the Maquis least they fall into Cardassian hands and end up executed for terrorism or worse start another border war with the Cardassians. Whether they were terrorists or freedom fighters largely as in the real world depends whom you ask.
The descent into terrorism is subjective in war. You could argue successfully in technical terms that many generals, and Bomber Command itself in WWII was guilty of terrorism. Same with Goerig and the Luftwaffe.
Since there were crimes and atrocities committed against the Maquis by cardassian gangs being secretly aided by the Cardassian Union, I would say this one can be classified as war, and the Maquis eventually escalated into targeting civilians and Federation ships out of both desperation and frustration.
Had to? - No way! They could and should have stomped the Cardassians into the ground! The Cardassians are a third rate power at best and their technology is inferior to Federation tech, too and no: The Borg can't be used as an excuse! Yes, the Borg were a threat but that doesn't mean that the Federation couldn't spare the ships to put the hurt on the Cardassians! Damned, the Klingons (who have a smaller fleet than the Federation!) were beating the Cardassians (with losses, but over all? They were doing pretty well!)
I would suggest that the Maquis' cause was just... but their tactics did fall into terrorism in many cells. Not every Maquis band seemed to fight the same way- but a number we saw onscreen did end up as terrorists rather than freedom fighters.
@@dreamingflurry2729 I think he's right in saying they were in bind but a bind of their own making. Their handling of the boarder wars, followed by their unwillingness to do anything to jeopardize the treaty, meant that they spent all their time putting out small fires constantly but doing nothing to solve the underlying problem, which was that the federation was ardently keeping to the treaty but the Cardassians weren't and the Federation didn't want to risk open war to stop it. Which meant that it pretty much ignored the cardassian problem while only dealing with the retaliations of the federation citizens. Which in the end burst into the forest fire that was the Maquis, at which point the only real options were to throw aside the treaty and help the maquis or go in and forcefully evict all federation citizens in the demilitarized zone. Neither of which would have been good options for the federation to take.
Then there was a spark of hope governmental change on Cardassia, the Dotopa council took control of the government from the military and it looked like the Cardassians were finally going to get a more peaceful government that would be more willing to talk and work things out with its neighbors, the cardassian government issues a formal apology to the bajorans and started returning artifacts and prisoners. Everything was starting to move towards peace and alliances. But this was something the Dominion couldn't stand by and let happen, they wanted to destabilize the quadrant not see it come together. So the Changling Martok convinced the Klingon empire that the governmental shift on cardassia was due to changeling interference and that the empire should intervene. Thus everything changed the Cardassians could no long attend to the maquis they couldn't defend themselves so the Maquis moved in and helped the Klingons. As Edington said "We had them on the run!" and Sisko replies "And they ran right into the arms of the Dominion!"
In the end, I think the Maquis once they got going were a problem that few in the federation had the stomach to truly deal with, it was a problem that they could have prevented but not something they could have dealt with without sacrificing everything that made the federation what it was. In the end i think the writers wrote themselves into a corner that they couldn't figure out a way out of and in the end the only real option left for the writers to solve the problem was genocide.
The writers have been kind to the Federation imo, the Dominion with the help of the Marquis could have caused complete chaos in Federation space if some sort of alliance was made.
But if they ever do go beyond the 24th century their could be a scenario where the Federation is losing a war in which even they were not prepared for!
Perhaps from an extra-galactic power which owns a few galaxies.
Later on in the series Starfleet command is nothing but a crater, Earth is occupied, Federation ships are far and few between meanwhile a mass exodus occurs and the Federation sort of becomes a 3rd rate power where they have to use other species ships like Romulans, Klingons, Ferengi and Cardassians.
It's always been surprising to me that the Federation wasn't conquered by their neighbors.
They almost were a few times. Klingons went in pretty hard. Romulans nuked them... They've been hit.
+Hoehner Tim Xindi did them no favors either..
The federation where always stronger than their neighbors materially and technologically, that's why they weren't conquered.
The important thing to remember about the Federation; is when pushed by aggressive neighbors they would put their minds to creating weapons and ships and pull out the victory or peace treaty.
The Federation portrayed in TNG and DS9 is not representative of Federation history. It began as a mutual defense pact between 4 world states: United Earth, Vulcan, Andoria, and Tellar Prime. This defense pact gave those worlds an advantage over their other adversaries, but it also meant that the fledgling United Federation of Planets had fairly bitter enemies (particularly the Romulans and the Klingons) right from the beginning. It then spent most of its pre-TNG history fighting off those enemies, as well as new enemies that popped up like the Cardassians and the Gorn.
In other words, the Federation had been in a near constant state of war from its birth until just a few years before the beginning of TNG. Having FINALLY achieved what seemed like a lasting peace, Starfleet and the Federation Council were extremely reluctant to do anything that might jeopardize that peace.
You also have to remember that the Federation not only endured all this adversity, but actually grew steadily during that time. While their adversaries generally conquered worlds within their territory, all Federation worlds were members voluntarily - they even allowed worlds to secede if they wished to. This meant that while the Klingons, Cardassians, Romulans, etc. had to devote a significant portion of their military budget to keeping conquered worlds in line, the Federation could devote all of its military resources to territorial defense. It also meant that Federation colonies and member worlds would be better developed; meaning better access to the resources they had.
So while the Federation had always been pacifist in principle, they had plenty of experience at fighting wars, more resources available than any of their enemies, technological prowess that was at least the equal of any other Alpha quadrant power, and little to no worry about internal conflict, as a result they were more than capable of defending themselves against any attacks from their neighbors.
This is one of those issues that the Novelverse addresses much better.
I wonder what possible evolved maquis ships would have looked like?
I think the reason the federation did nothing was for 2 reasons. 1) because the dominion alliance with Cardassians was unexpected so they were too busy dealing with this to worry about the maqui. 2) the dominion sent a large amount of ships to the DMZ and the federation was already stretched fairly thin so didn’t have the resources to properly defend them
The Dominion only eliminated the Maquis within the boundaries of Cardassian space. Also by the time the Cardassians joined the Dominion it isn't beyond a possibility that they moved most of their installations away from their colony's and into isolated facilities which were likely targeted by the Dominion.
"Cardassians Space" includes the DMZ where it was agreed no warships..
@@LoreReloaded Starfleet would also have to decide where to maximize defense and resource allocation and tough decisions would need to be made.
The Federation mishandled the Maquis situation, but that is really a matter of nuance rather than definitely poor policy making. The Federation attempted to save its citizens' lives, making an uncomfortable peace treaty with the Cardassians. The colonists themselves were already in great danger, and Starfleet had been severely weakened. Frankly, in hindsight it seems a damn good thing Starfleet continued to build up its defenses and ships rather than expend them upon further war with Cardassia, given the war that started soon after. But that is point--the Federation may be a post scarcity society in its heart, but it never ever had infinite resources. When your hand is not as strong, you bluff or you play a careful game. Bluff in this case meant lives, potentially huge numbers of lives. There was no good solution here. Only the least bad of possible solutions. While the DMZ was rightly unpopular, it was also the best solution under the circumstances for all the Federation, not just the colonists in that one area. Indeed, Starfleet did a great deal to keep Cardassians from violating the treaty. Did they join in a war against the Klingons? No--not least because they hoped to rebuilt their alliance with the Empire--which they did. Also, with a truly major war looming with what seemed like a demonstrably superior foe, the Federation horded its military resources. Just as Churchill did not support the French against Germany's blitzkrieg with the RAF. Those aircraft and pilots would soon be desperately need. Churchill was right! Starfleet was still recovering from the Battle of Wolf 359 and needed to upgrade their weapons systems overall. They were even negotiating use of cloaking device for the DEFIANT.
I sympathize with the Maquis. Had Gul Dukhat not made his devil's bargain with the Dominion, they might have succeeded and the Maquis in a few years have become a friend and ally of the Federation. You are right they got too greedy once the Klingons declared war on the Cardassian Union, but their big error was not factoring in the Dominion and sudden changes of fortune. I'm not sure what they might have done, but that alone doomed them.
The Federation owed a duty to protect all its citizens. That meant, sadly, sacrificing some for the good of the many, sacrificing the present for the sake of the future. The USA had no choice but allow the Japanese to take the Philipines, then a US territory, in the early days of WW2. Such are the terrible, heart-breaking decisions made to win wars. The Federation barely managed to survive fighting the Dominion. With fewer ships, fewer personnel, weapons systems less ready, etc. they might not have made it.
Another great video. Thanks for examining the Maquis and their arc in the Star Trek universe. I guess I'll always take the Maquis's side. Being essentially guerilla fighters there were already at ass disadvantage if they had to deal with the Cardassian military versus armed Cardassian colonists. When I was watching DS9 I'd always assumed that that was the motive behind the Cardassians arming their ow colonists: cause hostilities in the DMZ, spin it that Federation colonists were the culprits victimizing peaceful Cardassian colonists, this creating a pretext for the Cardassians to intervene militarily. "Wouldn't that be an act of war?" I'm sure someone would say. So what if it is? What's the Federation or Star Fleet going to do about it? If the resolution of the border wars is any indication, any action the Federation happened to take wouldn't have been likely to deter them. The Cardassians were jingoistic and predatory and no matter how formidable Star Fleet might be they're useless if the Federation's unwilling to deal with the Cardassians decisively. That's something I think Lore Reloaded's videos have highlighted pretty effectively: the Federation is so intent on taking the high road that they seem to go out of their way to ignore they predatory nature of the Cardassians or the Romulans. The Federation thinks that they can talk and negotiate their way out of every conflict like Neville Chamberlain dealing with the Nazis. The olive branch is just kindling for the fire if it's not backed up by the sword. Once again, great video.
I think you really hit the nail with the last part. The Federation didn't treat them as citizens until their trial. Yes the Maquis didn't want Federation aid and meddling but only because they failed those citizens in the DMZ for decades.
Not really - they were tried for their acts of terrorism against the Federation. Whether or not they were Federation citizens is immaterial, they had committed crimes against the Federation, and as such if captured justiced allowed for those against whom they had committed crimes to prosecute them, as would be true in our day in most countries. We can argue about how Federation foreign policy may have crapped on them, but that doesn't mean they can't be prosecuted (much like anyone else would) for acts of terrorism.
Headless Chicken they didn’t want to be Federation citizens. So they weren’t treated as such
Someone make some evolved maquis ship concept art, like now! Lol
Star fleet should have invaded cardasia it would have improved relations with the Klingons, maquis, and bajorans while also protecting, stabilizing and educating cardasia and its citizens.
I think the writers were in a rut : They had to continue making the Federation relevant to the Maquis. I don't know why, but it's stupid. Especially since they renounced their citizenship, dear Feddy cannot legally go after them. Maybe it's some sort of Earth citizenship loophole thing, or some kind of grandfather clause.
I do agree with your point about the Maquis being greedy, but I think it's more like they got their home, now they want to control the damn province / county/state. And yes, they should have steered clear of the Klingons, and just accept food, and other such ordinary material. And to be fair, Dukat suddenly announcing the Dominion alliance definitely gives no time for a fleet action to respond.
DOWSOE There may not be any legal mechanism for seceding from the federation. California can't form its own nation separate from the United States. The Maquis didn't start the shooting, and never attacked a civilian target until they poisoned that planet's atmosphere. And why does nobody being tried in a federation court(not a court-martial) ever have a lawyer? When Quark is being taken to a trial, no lawyer is ever mentioned. When Bashir is about to go to prison for being genetically engineered, no lawyer is ever mentioned. Come to think of it, when Picard is being interrogated by that crazy admiral, he doesn't have any kind of legal counsel.
.............that's not really what I was getting at.
The Federation did try to stop the Marquis by going after the cells and going after suppliers
Starfleet policy towards the Maquis was largely thanks to Admiral Nechayev. She wasn't one to back down, nor change her stance. Both Picard and Sisko had to bite their tongue with her.
It never really sat right with me how quickly the Maquis were eliminated. Doesn't help that it is almost entirely off screen.
agreed..
+TheOffenderBlog It made perfect sense that it would be not only quick, but entirely unworthy of note. The Maquis had deluded themselves into thinking they were actually significant compared to the great interstellar powers.
They weren't. They were barely an irritant. Any of the powers could have crushed them if they used their full military might against them. Heck, the only reason they lasted this long wasn't because of anything they did. The only real reason they lasted that long, was because neither the Union nor the UFP wanted to restart a war, so they greatly limited what they were doing in the DMZ. Granted, the Union did more than the UFP, but it's still insignificant compared to what it could actually have done. The Dominion War showed that full fleets numbered in the dozens of warships, often over a hundred per fleet, not counting fighters and support ships.
The Dominion, even limited compared to what it had back home, was still even more powerful than any single one of the great powers. They had ships, and lots of it. So the fact that the Maquis was crushed almost instantly comes as no surprise to me.
As for why nobody seemed to give a damn... well, that too, came as no surprise. Things had escalated to the level of the Quadrant, and the DMZ was now nothing more than a footnote. Also, why would people care if a few pirates and terrorists bought it?
I figured trying the Maquis as federation citizens committing acts of terrorism was an act of spite more than 'mishandling' them. It was a message informing them that they should never have betrayed the Federation, that they needed the Federation to survive. It was pettiness more than incompetence. That's just me, though.
I sympathize with them but consider them a paramilitary organization capable of and willing to use terrorism to accomplish their goals. Sisco said it best; "It's easy to be a saint in paradise". Out in the demilitarized zone, you'd do things you wouldn't anywhere else, if you had any other choices.
if starfleet went to the aid of the maquis, they would end up in a shooting war sooner and would be even less prepared to fight. those 5 months between the dominions arrival and the the start of the war with the mine field gave the federation invaluable time to build up their assets.
It also gave the dominion 100's of more ships, more time to work on their cloning facilities and their shipyards..
i agree totally. let's be honest, if it wasn't for the wormhole aliens getting involved, the federation would have lost the war in less than a year.
Three days wasn't enough time for the Federation to come save the Marquis, when they were assessing, the Cardasians joining the Dominion. They had to get a task force together, just to protect DS9.
+Frank Jones and that fleet couldn't be redirected to save the maquis when ds9 wasn't attacked?
Starfleet would have had a much harder time than the Dominion rooting out the Maquis, even with the permission of the Detapa Council. Their ethics would have made it almost impossible when the Maquis have all the same ingenuity and fewer ethical constraints. What's more, they knew it would have been pointless to call the Cardassians on the treaty now that they had Dominion Allies. They went so far as to no longer officially recognize the Cardassian government, and you can't call people out for treaty violations if you're pretending they didn't exist.
Mostly I think the mishandling of the Maquis was a matter of circumstance. If the wormhole had never been discovered, the Federation's approach would have been the right balance of morality and diplomatic necessity.
Not to mention that at the time Starfleet was fighting the Klingons as well - let's not forget the Klingons had turned against the Federation for refusing to support their war against the Cardassians, leading to Klingon and Starfleet vessels shooting at and destroying each other. So any Starfleet task force going after the Maquis would also be dealing with Klingon warships, which were rightly considered the bigger threat and larger problem at the time.
The Klingons would not renew their alliance with the Federation until after the Cardassians had joined the Dominion and the Jem'Hadar had kicked Klingon forces out of Dominion space. By which time it was already too late for the Maquis.
I've always hated this idea that "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter".
There's a proper name for freedom fighters: guerrillas. Soldiers fighting irregular warfare against an opposing military. The Maquis where guerrillas, and the term terrorist being used to describe them stems from a general ignorance by many that the two are interchangeable when they are nothing of the sort.
The idea is not so much that terrorists are equivalent to freedom fighters (though both may employ similar tactics), but that the more powerful side in an asymmetric war will almost always attempt to brand the weaker side as terrorists, while the weaker side will almost always attempt to brand themselves as freedom fighters.
But didn't they ALSO attack civilian colonies of cardassia?
For sure that is something I would call terrorism.
Quite true. Guerillas strike legitimate targets in an attempt to drive the enemy from their territory. Terrorists commit random acts of violence as a political or religious statement against those they hate. The actual Maquis, the French Resistance during WWII, were guerillas.
they did use chemical waepons on cardassian colony all thou fed did the same
Guerrillas or terrorist its all the same thing, one invokes an image of a beret the other wearing a keffiyeh but they are still the same. It always has and will depend upon which side you are on, crazy thing is each side think they are right.
i think you overestimate the damage done to the obsidian order and the tal shiar. Sure there fleets were destroyed, but being intelligence agencies, their power was not in the number of ships. I would suspect they wouldn't recall all or even most of their spies to join this fleet. As for their reputation its unclear how well either agency was at keeping their failures secret. I know nothing really to do with this video, just you mentioning it reminded me.
Brian Gervais it was specifically mentioned that the Obsidian Order imploded but the Tal Shiar was weakened but continued to function
While I agree that the Federation did a piss poor job with the Maquis/Cardassian situation, on a legal standpoint there was no ambiguity in trying the Marquis as terrorists. For a contemporary example if a terrorist from another country came to yours and committed a terrorist act, then the host country is perfectly entitled to prosecute them accordingly.
+426mak They were tried as federation citizens.
Lore Reloaded: Yet they still expected the Federation to stand up for them and attacked the Federation when they did not.
Except the Federation told them they were on their own and then refused to help them. And most of the "terrorist" acts they were arrested for took place in Cardassian space or the DMZ, which was NOT Federation territory any longer. it would be like, say, France going into Poland and arresting people who had committed acts against the Russians.
As the Maquis had no official nation they can be classed as pirates, making them fair-game for anyone.
I wasn't the only one who misread this as Star Trek Christmas : Massacre of the Maquis was I?
I should have named it that
Maquis roooooasting on an open fiiiiiiiire, Jem'Hadar biting at my toooooooes! =D
Nothing gets me in the holiday mood like a good old Massacre. *cough*
One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter hence you cannot kill an idea. It may lay low it may even form a political party and force a negotiation but once it has been created, unless you eliminate every single person that believed in it will never go away. It will become a part of history.
If the Federation had gone in and defended the Maquis from the slaughter then open war with the Dominion would have begun months earlier and that would be devastating to the Federation. Sisko laid out the state of things when they were first approaching the wormhole to gain their foothold at Cardassia. The recent war with the Klingons and the Borg's last attack left Starfleet in such a shambles and they were in no state for open warfare. They needed time to rebuild their forces before open war could begin. The Maquis, as tragic as it is, were left to die for the greater good.
On the topic of the Maquis already having their own state by the time of the Klingon war I think you are mistaken some. We know that jusy before they were massacred that they were on the verge of decalring themselves an independant state. Eddington himself said so. But before that the war win the DMZ was still very very hot. They were winning clearly but it was no where near over.
The Maquis had every right to be angry and try to defend themselves. The situation with the demilitarized shows just how shuck up and prideful the Federation could be. How many times do we hear in Star Trek that Starfleet isn't a military. The Federation cut a bad deal simply to up hold their "evolved" ideals, that harmed a great many of the people the Federation considered their own, and only condemned them. The Maquis did some horrible things, but you fight dirty when you're out gunned. They helped the Klingons because they knew the Cardassians would still be a threat to the DMZ planets.
No ther fedration wasnt going to have another boerder war with the cardasins over worthles colony worlds.
Well then they shouldn’t have left the Federation. Maquis got exactly what the Federation and Cardassians would’ve done if they weren’t scared of reprisals from the others. They were hardly Federation citizens, they wanted the Federation gone and so they did go.
The way the Federation handled the Maquis is why I stopped liking the Federation. The Federation isn’t the good guys and violated its duty to its own citizens.
The Marquis are NOT criminals, the Orion Syndicate are criminals. The Marquis are people who the Federation abandoned because they wanted peace at all costs, even if it meant selling out some of their colonists!
a lot of people believe this.
I would say federation bureaucracy played a part here. Humans are one race after all, and one band of disagreeable humans, in Federation eyes, could merit quite low on priorities, especially if they have already demonstrated as terrorists and criminals. They would essentially be considered pirates or rebels, and there would be a strong attitude, particularly among non-human member races of 'good riddence'.
Worst decision by Starfleet.
No they were fighting for there rights which the Federation took away from them by the peace treaty. we see this in the next generation. when the Dominion came in Starfleet was already stretched to thin for them to help them in anyway
Personally i feel once the Marquee disavowed the Federation that should of ended any commitment the Federation had too them. That's same as renouncing their citizenship which that is what they did. Although for a time Sisko did what he could to get them to come back but failed. T herefore they became renegades yes they was an opportunity they could have had there own state but with the Cardasian Dominion Alliance it wouldn't have mattered they would have still been wiped out. The Federation couldnt have defended them at that time they was barely holding on as is.
Ken Jett Starfleet would have been better off fighting the Dominion Cardassian Alliance when they hit the DMZ. Remember they had initially only brought in 50 ships from the Gamma Quadrant. Had they fought then and mined the wormhole the odds would have been heavily in their favor.
Lance Heaps i agree they was a few miner mistakes but i doubt that would of changed what eventually took place at best just delayed it. To be honest as costly as the war was for both sides it served a good purpose. It ended any issues left over with the Cardasians and ended any further hostility in or from the Gamma Quaudrant. Without the war all this tenion and unrest would still continue to plague the Federation. It also brought a somewhat better relationship with the Romulans and tightened the relationship with the Klingon Empire.
Ken Jett exactly my point Starfleet was going to fight the Dominion regardless, so they would have been smart to fight them when they had the best odds. That being as soon as they attack Federation citizens. They could have minimized Starfleet, and Klingon casualties while also permanently sealing off the Dominion in the Gamma Quadrant by the minefield. Basically they were the Neville Chamberlin's of the 24th century. Had the Brits and French fought Hitler in 1937 they could have won in far less time.
Lance Heaps true but the problem with what your stating is giving up the Gamma Quadrant. I doubt with what Starfleet went through to have access to the wormhole and The Gamma Quadrant. I dont tthink it would be in their plan just to seal it off. As i said despite the cost of life on both sides what happened was for the best. Gamma Quadrant was freed and tension in Alpa Quadrant was practically eliminated. So in a sense this war needed to happen.
I don't blame the Maquis, but their methods were too extreme for my liking.
They got what they wanted
All of it is Wesley's fault
The Maquis were funded by Section 31. Duh!
ITS SO OBVIOUS
The maqui were freedom fighters.
they were both, you cant be one and not the other
Wonder who many were from France? VIVE LA RESISTANCE!!!
That was a really good point, we see a similar political quagmire today.
In short, the Federation gave the middle finger to its own citizens... interesting.. and as to the "terrorists or freedom fighters" argument, I would say the Maquis are neither. Specifically, the Maquis are rebels. Terrorists use acts of terror to make changes in governments. Rebels fight the government which they are ruled over with the goal of either splitting off from that nation and making their own or completely overthrowing the old government. Technically, you could use the term "rebel" to describe a freedom fighter, but rebels don't always fight for freedom from their overlords, so I don't think that's entirely accurate.
Do I think the Maquis' actions were justified? Yes, I do.
"They would not defend their own citizens."
The Maquis had broken away from the Federation. They openly attacked Federation ships and warships. These were no longer their citizens.
And foreign people will still be tried under the law of the country they committed the crime against, including terrorism. The Federation saw the Maquis as foreign terrorists, to be tried under Federation Law. Difference.
Enough with blaming the Federation for everything, Lore.
The Federation still considered the Maquis Federation Citizens.. regardless of what the Maquis said.
+Lore Reloaded Even if I agreed with that - and I don't - tell me why, exactly, the Federation should send good, loyal soldiers to their deaths to save a bunch of criminals and terrorists? Especially since the Federation initially did tell them 'Settling here's not a good idea. Don't settle here.' ?
Why should the Federation save people who never wanted to save themselves at all?
And besides, these people probably died very happy. After all, as Eddington once said, they wanted the Federation to 'leave them alone'.
Well, they got their wish. The Federation did leave them alone. I'm sure the Maquis felt extremely proud of this fact as the Dominion killed them.
If a person in Tennessee states they are not a US Citizen and are mugged - is a police officer required to save them? If a US citizen has renounced their citizenship and is in a war zone, is a soldier required to save them? Are they still citizens under the Constitution?
Either they are citizens or they aren't - if they are not, the federation has no right to try them as citizens.. it's that simple. Though they are citizens - according to the treaty and dialogue we see in both ds9 and TNG.
+Lore Reloaded If the soldier has the choice between saving a terrorist and saving an innocent civilian, and lacks the resources or time to save both, is the soldier at fault for saving the civilian?
That's where you are wrong, whatever the maquis may be, at heart they are still federation. They have some of the same federation ideals deep inside of them. They would never be able to work with the dominion, and the dominion wouldn't tolerate the maquis for long even if they had a peace treaty with them.
+TentaclePentacle federation is pretty known for bombing freighters.. Attacking cardassian colonists..and stealing tech that would help civillians are they?
+Lore Reloaded
The maquis might hate the bloody cardies, and do some nasty things to them. The maquis might even be racist towards the cardies. But that doesn't mean they are going to like how the dominion operates.
Also, take the position of the dominion, their new allies the Cardassians want the demilitarized zone. they want the maquis dead, they want to reclaim all the territory they have lost. To restore the former glory of Cardassia. One of the conditions for joining the dominion was the dominion help them to wipe out the maquis. Given the choice of between the maquis and the cardassians, which one would the dominion choose?
They're simply calling the federation policy on the DMZ what it is POLITICAL EXPEDIENCY AND HYPOCRISY.
+Jean-Luc Martel
The maquis can call it that, but the federation, in this case, is not wrong. Those colonists got themselves into this position all by themselves, with their eyes open. When they first settle those worlds near the cardarssian border, they were told the situation was unstable with the cardarssians. They were told there was a possibility they had to evacuate. They went and colonized those worlds anyway knowing the risks.
The failure of the Federation to defend the Marquis and borderlands during the Dominion war wasn't a policy decision though, it was a tactical and strategic one. Every student of military history knows that an empire (and the federation is an empire albeit one with a broad polity and high levels of democratic and diplomatic engagement) sometimes needs to sacrifice territory for manpower and materials. If the federation had tried to defend every sector and system they'd have surely lost the war so the sectors and systems where their control was weakest (such as the DMZ) were those least likely to be defended.
All of this is consistent with the Federation's prior deliberate policy of prioritising external diplomatic reputation above internal political unity. It was more important to the Federation of the 2360s to maintain good diplomatic ties and to ensure that their word in treaty would be enforced than it was for the smaller, weaker but rising power of the Cardassian Union to maintain the same reputation. The Federation traded on their diplomatic credibility and maintaining the DMZ (which was not simply a concession to Cardassia) was an important part of this. If they violated the treaty with the Cardassians either by arming their colonists (overtly as some in SF did likely arm colonist groups) or by annexing the DMZ this would have had profound implications of their relationships with other alpha/beta quadrant species, the Tholians, the Breen, the Ferengi, Romulans and perhaps even the Klingons.
Also, the Federation in the 2360s was in turmoil. The Romulans had returned to the galactic stage in full force, the Klingon situation was a constant source of frustration and wariness, the Borg was an ever-present threat, then the wormhole and the Dominion...
It's sad to say, but also understandable, that the DMZ was sort of lost in the shuffle. The UFP had a lot of bigger things to think about.
The maquis choose tyo leave the federation.Because of that the federation were under no obligation to protect them.
The colonists knew not to settle there. The Federation told them not to. They did anyway, and then cried for help when their violent aggressive neighbors they settled on the doorstep of made a move. Starfleet had zero obligated to those people other than to help them evacuate... which they offered. The Maquis are the worst kind of terrorist.
The Federation could really suck sometimes. The Federation as it pertains to the maquis was actually meant to represent arrogant nationalism. They would interact with a culture they didn't understand and try to tell them how to act.
Ah, no that's against the prime directive.
TentaclePentacle Oh you mean that thing that they follow all the time except for all the times they don't?
Your opinion is wrong. Look at Dorvan V they renounced their Federation citizenship. You don't need to be a citizen to be considered a terrorist. The Maquis didn't just attack Starfleet ships they committed terrorist action in the middle of Bajoran space. Their terrorism was spilling already beyond the DMZ well before the Klingons came into the picture.
On the practical side the Federation does not have this resources to help the Cardassians or quell the Maquis as Gowron withdrew the Klingon Empire from the Khitomer Accord and there is a state of war with the Federation. If the Klingons barely got away with the skin of their teeth from the Jem Hadar what makes you think Starfleet can rescue the Maquis.
The Maquis always had the option to leave their colonies but they didn't out of pride. They were to slow to do so when it was too late.
+Red Dayoan They were tried as federation citizens in federation court. Renouncing ones citizenship does not make it so. Thanks for the comment.
Dorvan V colonists renounced their Federation citizenship as part of the deal they can stay on the planet under Cardassian rule. This was the model followed by the rest of the DMZ under Cardassian jurisdiction.
Can you show me Alpha Canon (TV Show) where the federation agrees to their renouncement of their citizens and declares them non-citizens?? Because in both tNG and DS9 - they are referred to as Federation COlonists, tried as federation citizens, and have starfleet assistance and liasons.. A person in the United States whom calls themselves a 'sovereign citizen' are still considered United States Citizens and bound to the constitutional law..regardless of what they say.
Turkana IV Tasha Yar's home colony seceeded from the Federation on their own. As seen several times in TNG there are independent Human colonies not under the Federation. When the Enterprise D found a Human colony on a world claimed by the Sheliak corporate Picard can't legally force them out and had Data convince them to leave on own accord. And their ancestors left the Federation. Just look at Memory Alpha under colony and you'll see there several independent colonies.
Where do you see the Maquis specifically being recognized as an independent faction within TNG or DS9?
If Bajor is an allegory for Israel, then the Maquis kinda looking more one for the Palestinians lately.
i used to think Bajorans are the irish, the maquis where the IRA and the cardis are the brits lol
This is just another reason why I hate star trek franchise, TOO MANY mistakes were made by the federation an everyone!
klinton kavanagh they were some miner mistakes yes but thats part of what it is to be human. But the Marquee renounced their citizenship the Federation had no real responsibility to them. Although some attemps wete made to get them to come back.
I totally agree with you there, BUT the humans in star trek are so smug in their "so called" evolved superioress when in fact they're not!
Well its no different with the humans in Warhammer 40k in how proud of their own race were even to the point of literal hatred of anything non human.
true, BUT that's because of the cult of the emperor, and the machine cult, and it's 38,000 years in the future!
The point is. Humans doing human things. You should expect such things from people even in Sci Fi
The Federation did the wrong thing.
And Sisko acted like a total fascist against them.