Sigh. Season 2 was a large step up from season 1, but it just moved it from poor and disappointing to disappointing. Sure, it's up to watchable level, but that's not where it could be. Fantasy shows with low internal logic and high on CW drama are a dime a dozen and usually peter out due to lack of audience commitment. In Wheel of Time they have a built in audience who stuck with a series for multiple decades and instead of trying to create a show around that dedicated fanbase they made generic CW fantasy yet again...
Was it really a step-up though? Season 2 had one good episode, several mediocre ones, at least two really bad ones and a finale that was more anti-climactic than a one-pump-chump. I don't know if that is a step up.
@@orion00 I’d say it was more entertaining, that’s my ADHD flashy lights brain. Watching Sanderson react to S2E8 was probably the best actual critique of the show. People will have to jump through hoops to answer the following questions. Without Matt, why do you need Elayne and Nynaeve? Egwene just needs a sword. What is Rand’s arc in this season? How does Rand’s philosophy beat Ishy’s philosophy? (What is Rand’s philosophy/ideals in the show?) Cool scenes and neat lines are used in place of character arcs instead of supporting them. It’s better in costuming. We got some pretty good acting range from several characters. The Dragon was cool! (Don’t ask questions I have no answers to the sense it made). I can enjoy that, but I’m not going to love it.
@@chrisf2636 It's great that you can see silver linings there. I'm just salty that it failed in all categories for me. The set designs and costumes were the most disappointing. I'm comparing it to the Witcher series and I can't pin point what it is but the Witcher (or Game of Thrones) designs felt immersive while Wheel of Time makes me think of people cosplaying. Does that make any sense?
@@orion00 absolutely. They were the cosplayers with more money in S2. That is the silver lining. I will not recommend the show to my friends co-workers. It’d be like asking them to be excited about watching power Rangers. Though that storyline might be more coherent.
@@orion00 also I have to accept what is. It isn’t the Wheel of Time in world, scope metaphysics. I’m trying to adopt a bit more class like Sanderson does. Being filled with rage over the steaming pile in front of me doesn’t help. Instead of salty I’m trying be critical without it being something I loved with the core ripped out walking around with parts of the skin left. Sorry haven’t managed that full classy bit.
I thought it was incredibly stupid to spend all that time setting up Nyneave and Elayne's rescue attempt of Egwene just to pull the rug out from under them so Egwene can girlboss her way out of her own situation. It really feels like they're doing things for book readers without understanding why the things from the books work. "Here are your little scenes from the books, but now they don't really matter." Also, it strains believability that the Whitecloaks are really offended by slavery. These are the same people who chopped off an Aes Sedai's hands and burned her at the stake in season 1. And now they somehow know about Seanchan slavery(of channellers) and are super offended by it? They attack the Seanchan in the books because they think it's Aes Sedai blowing up Falme. This stuff makes no sense. The show is doing things just to do them.
@@bigjonS4my thoughts as well. Geofram was just protecting a fellow whitecloak getting attacked by a random wolf...who WOULDN'T axe it? Perrin was a bit unreasonable there, Dain has every right to hate/hunt him.
I disagree with you 100 % ! Whitcloak's ideology is far extreme left, they are a self-righteous cult! they also believe that one power comes from the Dark One, hence same as it was believed in the medieval ages, spellcasting has to be evil and connected to the Dark One! In that case, Aes Sedai are witches, dark friends, and not human as they are concerned! So your analogy does not apply! I thought Whitecloaks using the derogatory word witch for Aes Sedai in the books and the show would give you a clue lol I actually think Damane's storyline was way better in the Show for Egwene than it was in the book, it works better for who she is as a character and who she is to become! Egwene's character was never written even in the book as a Demzel in distress! and of course, you will have her friends trying to free her even if you don't intend to have them manage it, otherwise, what would that be saying about her friends! they don't care? plus the plotline serves to keep the audience from suspecting she will free herself! Also is setting up a saving party that does not save anyone not the actual plot in several cases in the book too, in the book we also have characters saving themselves before the saving party arrives ??? well, you read it apparently, so remember Tear??? I want to say hypocrite much lol? Give credit when due! there are so many things done better than in the books, for example The whole idea in the books that all Forsaken, the most powerful channelers of that age just happened to be there with a Dark one waiting to be trapped like sitting ducks was just silly! Particularly because Dark one exists outside our dimension ... The show hunting them one by one and trapping them into individual seals made much more sense! I love it ! I think some people are so set in their bias that they refuse to see the thing the show did better even with these extreme time constraints per episode they have, which is the major issue for me, with so many key characters 8 episode is just not enough to give each of them enough focus ... the worst thing about the show are not changes but the supersonic pacing and dialogs that are written as per order that every line needs to be delivered in as little word as possible, I actually love some of changes ... changes make suspense and keeps me on my toes not knowing and guessing!
Good to see you recognise that the really want Egwene to be the Dragon. if this makes it to the last battle, mark my word, Egwene will be in the Pit of Doom saving the day.
@@andrewfrank7222 Yes. The women went and supported Rand. There is no way this show will have Egwene just standing there funneling saidar to Rand. It will be a big change with her confronting the DO. Mark my word
Making Egwene this powerhouse who can get through anything by pure determination is such a disservice to her character. In season 1 we learned that she cured herself of breakbone fever. In the books, it was Nynaeve who healed her. I think that was the first time she healed someone with the Power. Show Nynaeve goes on to say that Egewene is unbreakable. One thing I liked about Egewene, as I did with all the Emond's Fielders, is that she starts of as an inexperienced country person who is thrown into a world she doesn't understand and feels lost in. Then, through her various experiences, grows to be someone who is unbreakable. Having her start of this way limits her growth as a character. Now Egwene is freeing herself in a way that further breaks the lore of the books, and we're supposed to believe that she can resist the a'dam through sheer willpower. I'd prefer if she were just rescued by Nynaeve and Elayne. After all, if the Dragon Reborn has to be rescued from time to time, why not Egwene?
Lanfear praying to the Light was beyond dumb, if there was a Dark One Lanfear would now be dead. They are doing the 5 headed Dragon, Rand is going to be walking behind Egwene, Moiraine, Lanfear or whoever holds his leash like a good little puppy for the whole show. Hints are that this is Mat's weapon and he now has his memories. No reason for him (or indeed Rand) to go to the Aiel waste in the show.
@@Flo-bn6ek Common, be objective !!! 75% of people give up on books halfway through before ever reaching the ending, yes Jordan is a master in world-building, but when it comes to writing dialogs, and romances, not at all .... and constant bickering and women slagging of men gets on people's nerves, Some characters are so annoying in first 2 books that most readers can't stand them and give up ... can you find a single event in the book where those 3 are together without bickering and Nyneave not pulling her hair and chewing on her lip? at least In the show no character is as annoying and for that they have my credit! huh, that's for another conversation... then indecisive plotlines, abandoned plotlines, boring long descriptions, particularly Jordan's obsession of long descriptions of clothing, embroidery, and lace, then it comes to a slog when for an entire book Aes Sedais are sitting in a little village scratching their arses doing nothing.... for some it was a horror show of writing! Constantly indecisive in writing styles .... Example of a bad writing: a princess meets a peasant in her garden, and apparently she is obsessed and wants to marry him without knowing anything about him... then in the next Occsion Elayne is with Nyneave and Egwene and suddenly for no reason out of the blue, she brings Rand whom she does not know at all, and only met once for 5 minutes, and says "Rand would never do that! "WTF!!!! if you want to criticize there is a lot in the book we can focus on! lol Whilst I agree with the analogy of this video in most cases, she fails to acknowledge all the things that the show has done better and gives credit when due! and that is not fair! For example, the depth of Liandrin's character is better, The whole idea that Forsaken just happened to be there, the most powerful channelers of age apparently were being sat like ducks just waiting to be trapped there with a Dark one ... just silly! The show hunting them one by one and trapping them into individual seals made much more sense! then Suldam being weak in power in the show Is a much better and simpler as well as logical idea than what was done in a book that Suldam are people who can be trained to channel... if that was the case why not just then train everyone and problem solved ... the halls of white Tower will be filled with novices again .... Jordan obviously did not know what to do with some plotlines and some ideas he obviously did not think through, there was lots of inconsistency through entire series in the books as well ... but some book readers just take it for granted without processing! I love the books for the amazing world-building, lore and histories, and imaginative universe he created, but I will never think of them as perfect or a writing masterpiece... Actually far from that, particularly when it comes to writing style, dialog writing, character writing, and romance writing are mediocre at best! For me the show's biggest issue is pacing because they have only 8 episodes per season and so many key characters that need attention, all plotlines feel rushed racing at supersonic speed, it feels as if writers have been given the order to make every dialog delivered in as few words as possible to make the scene shorter and manage to fit into the episode's time constrain! All I really want is for them to slow down the pace and relax, and for all characters to have time to sit down and start bonding with each other as well as with the audience, because some characters they are killing off, we did not get enough time with them to care about it... they need more episodes and I will like the show much more ...
@@Berndrthe "75%" who give up on the books are not fans. Fans are the people who finished the story and loved it warts and all. I think this is the same issue Rafe has, he didn't like the books and he thinks he can "fix" them. This is not the wheel of time. The Wheel of Time was written by Robert Jordan, and he wrote it as he saw fit to do so(his right as the author), and his fans love it as it is.
@@annendungu9153 I disagree, people can be fun and still have enough objectivity to accept all the flawed writing ... I myself have read the entire series 3 times and still have issues with it ... a lot! Some things simply make no sense and are bad no matter how much you love the other aspects of the book, in my case I love the Lore, history, and world-building can't get enough of it ... but the character dialog made me cringe every time... particularly romance... Elayne's and Fails are great examples of bad writing!
@@Berndr You are making my point for me. You have finished the books and regardless of the issues you had with it you enjoyed it. So yes, you are a fan. I don't think any fan would hate this show if the things Rafe fixed was the Rand and Elayne love story or cringe dialogue. But Rafe "fixed" the magic system, the world building, the characters and even the basic premise of the dragon. So no, this is not the wheel of time.
My observation for the show is this: Its biggest defenders consistently have to divorce it from the books (conceding the point of its critics) They also consistently talk about the show "improving" despite rarely acknowledging issues as they occur. They also talk about FUTURE episodes fixing problems. I get that some prefer to hunt for silver linings, and it IS fair to talk about the positives... But I think WAY too many free passes are given to Amazon and Rafe when they have CLEARLY made poor decisions, by design and NOT because of circumstances or constraints.
Some people choose to down the copium rather than face reality. It's likely to be the only live action version we'll ever get so some book series lovers feel conflicted. Personally, I'd rather they did a Castlevania style animated version and stick to the story. There's plenty of fluff to cut out without having to radically change characters, plotlines and chronology. RJ did like his long, repeated descriptions. Did you know Lamgwin is bulky with heavy lidded eyes? yes, RJ, you already told me a thousand times etc.
The biggest issue I have are not on the changes (although some can be definitively criticized) but the show not following its own show created logic (the A’dam is one but the Dagger is a more case in point example. Nobody knows how the dagger works, and twice they have retconned that in successive season finales)
@@denglongfist4270 Perhaps. Inconsistency is the biggest problem... but I think SOME of the changes are just explicitly and unequivocally for the worse. And Amazon DOES have good shows. But is ALSO has duds. And I think the inconsistent quality has been very much a corporate problem. Effectively I suspect some executives of being more interested in personal advancement and access than in the quality they're producing (they've paid several creators millions per year for producing... nothing. And stated that they worried about losing influence within the industry and therefore losing talent to competitors. So, it's REALLY not without logic. If they had picked grafters instead of grifters it would probably have paid off :P And aye bigjon, considering JUST how descriptive RJ was and how that is an instruction manual for a visual medium... I honestly don't think they'd have to cut as much as people seem convinced. Several huge plots can be removed without much fan reaction (most of Perrin after the battle of Two Rivers, half of the "runaway novices" stuff bc you don't really need to do it twice, the carnival stuff, Toman Head, a lot of the whitecloak stuff... I could go on You're probably dropping two entire books worth of content with stuff most hardcore fans still think of as filler :P) The first three books are pretty much required as foundation though, so a LITTLE more difficult to cut down.
It's so obvious at this point that they wanted a show about the Aes Sedai, and that's what they want to focus on. Which makes me wonder why they didn't just adapt New Spring at this point. The Dragon Reborn has been an after thought for 2 seasons, nobody fears him at all, prophecies are barely there, they keep on pushing how the bad guys care about all 5 the same way. And while in general i don't mind changes in adaptations, the ones done till now hasn't worked at all for me. They feel random and not well thought out at all. Screentime spent on Elayne and Nynaeve finding a way to free Egwene, an Aes Sedai even got collared to protect them and her warder got killed, and then...nothing. They just messed up completely how the a'dam works just to have Egwene free herself, while Elayne got hit by an arrow that Nynaeve, a Wisdom from the Two Rivers, didn't even know how to pull out. Rand found a way to get to Logain and had Errol teach him the sword (off screen but whatever), and yet he didn't show off anything if not those 2 seconds he took to take out Turak and his men. There was zero payoff to what they showed through the season. Why are people even cheering for him? They didn't see anything of what happened on the tower, the Whitecloaks are the ones who did most of the work in their eyes. He didn't even proclaim himself, it was Moiraine who did it (btw yeah, she did break the oaths), he feels more like a False Dragon right now (there were already people who didn't think he was the real one at the end of the first season, after this second finale some are sure it's actually Egwene and he is a red herring).
I mean its true, he's literally a false Dragon set up by an Aes Sedai. This idea or concept is prevalent in the books and the show runner apparently thought that meant thats how it should be. If he was really the Dragon he would have proclaimed himself.
Judging by how quick the show people were to cry racism when the reactions to the cast questioned why a village canonically established as have zero outside influence in the breeding pool had such a multi-racial population, I would say that they are super-racist themselves, since they keep taking away Nynaeve's accomplishments and giving them to lighter-skinned women. And they cast black men to play a pair of irredeemable scumbag rapists. And a couple of "gentle giants" who lost a bunch of IQ points in their transition to the screen. Judging by what an asshole Elyas is, and how utterly stupid Ryma and her warder are, these writers really don't like black people. Note as well how much more screen time and how many more lines original warder Maksim gets, compared to his black book counterpart, Ihvon.
The centuries of enslavement and mind rape that is the a-dam becomes way less meaningful when you can just pull yourself up by the bootstraps and not be a damane. Moiraine can apparently now defeat whole fleets of channelers and throw fire dragons. What. And what did Uno ever do to be a hero of the horn. These are supposed to be some of the most significant people from the ages and Uno is a regular soldier. Mat's zero to hero moment is forgiven because of the recasting but that was still jarring.
I wouldn't say that Egwene just pulled herself up by her bootstraps... just putting the a'dam on Renna wasn't enough - she also had to be able to take herself to almost death in order to get Renna to remove her a'dam. I thought it was a pretty powerful character building moment tbh that foreshadows more moments where Egwene has to tolerate pain. Also, it wasn't Uno's first life.
"foreshadows more moments where Egwene has to tolerate pain" it doesn't foreshadow them, it ruins the impact they would've otherwise had and the gradual buildup of her strenght of character and will. It's a detriment that probably comes from that tv series writing mindset of "we don't know if we'll get enough seasons to get to that moment so let's put unnecessarily and undeservedly epic moments early on and make every season feel like it could be a satisfying finale"@@TevitolMUN
@@TevitolMUN I don't think the show really got across that Egwene was taken to the point of death during this confrontation. After establishing that anything she did to Renna should have hurt Egwene twice as much, this should have been a scene where choking Renna to the point of nearly passing out should have had Egwene curled up on the floor gasping for air by the end of it (if Egwene didn't pass out first). Instead she just stands there and wills her way through it. But this show has repeatedly established rules and then broken them with little to no consequence.
@@ethanhandel1001 Just a punch to Renna in a previous episode took her out, but she choked her to death in the finale and she was totally fine? Rules are just completely out of the window in the show, even the ones they make themselves.
@@TevitolMUN That is "the explanation" but I think most people who watched the show did not see Egwene in much distress. It just seemed she somehow girl bossed her way through it.
I think there are several things about the production that is good or even great, but the writing is atrocious and can not stand any level of scrutiny before falling apart. I don't know if it is because they didn't have the time or because the writers lack the skill and experience, but I don't think the series has the potential to get any better without new writers. And that is very unlikely to happen.
i could have written some of the scenes more consistent in a few hours, like e.g. the attack on the gate. It is a void of talent and determination to create some immersive world, that is consitent in itself and to basic human logic.
This is true. I dont see how critical reviews such as are collected on rotten tomatoes from supposedly seasoned critics manage their way past that. They have a right to their opinion but I am confused by the lack of concern for the writing issues from critics.
Oh, in the bonus material on Amazon for this season Rafe was quite proud of himself that he made Rand and Moiraine's storylines parallel in that both characters pushed the ones they loved away, thinking they had to do it their own way, only to find in the end that they need those people in their lives to succeed. So clever of him! AVENGERS ASSEMBLE!!! I guess that you could argue that, just like at Taren Ferry, Moiraine wasn't breaking the Three Oaths, but merely destroying the Seanchan boats, not killing the people, silly! They could've save themselves, I'm sure! Rand holding the blade of his sword as he attacked Ishamael was the only way to place the Heron Mark on his palm, because in this show the Heron Mark is on the blade instead of the hilt of the sword, unlike in the books. Even though they conveniently place a Heron Mark on the hilt for the scene with Turak, because how else would Turak see it was a Heron Marked blade. Incidentally, they made this big deal of branding the Heron Mark onto Rand's palm, but just like the Horn of Valere, the prophecy of him being marked twice and twice again, has not been presented. Grr.
Except the books were quite specific that even possibly causing damage to a boat was in violation of the Three Oaths, in Crossroads of Twilight. Of course, this is the same series that thought it necessary to have Oath-Bound Moiraine swear an additional Oath of obedience, instead of just swearing an ordinary oath that the First Oath would have bound her to keep anyway...
Just in case you haven't heard, according to brandon sanderson, the dagger on a stick is not the precursor to the aeshandari, its the show's version of the aeshandari.... YAY
I feel bad for Nynaeve. She's supposed to be a super healer and the only one (non rand) that could stand up to the weakest foresaken. Totally sidestepped by Elayne this episode.
None of them are trained yet tho. The books (well, unlike the show, but hey) make it VERY clear that there's a massive distinction between raw power and training, including, critically, knowledge of (and ability to quickly learn) weaves. In the show's defense, Nyneave sure as shit doesn't know HOW to channel a standard healing weave at this point (due to spending her entire time at the tower intentionally avoiding any kind of instruction in the one power - and the fact that show aes sedai apparently don't give novices any kind of real instruction whatsoever which is just bizarre); whereas Elayne probably does. Nyneave also has a channeling block (which the show is finally acknowledging / portraying correctly), and NOT being able to do the one thing that she SHOULD be good at is pretty much the crux of her character + internal conflict in the first half of the series. S1 did a really bad job of portraying this b/c Nyneave should ONLY be capable of channeling when she's *angry*, NOT when she's just really, really desperate or whatever. The show's portrayal of channeling in general is pretty terrible though, b/c it really does not at all show that channeling IS very technical *and science driven*, not just wave your hands / chant a spell and a fireball appears, like in D&D or whatever. If nothing else the show's portrayal and use of channeling SHOULD (and apparently does) tick off Sanderson, b/c WOT (and all of Sanderson's works) has by far one of the most technical and hard-magic systems out there. Albeit hand-waved somewhat when rand + other characters just do things (ie. simple to very complicated weaves) off of instinct or whatever. Anyways, it's fairly tragic that this show was clearly made by people who clearly don't have any clear idea of how channeling should actually look, or work, since this was clearly just left up to the VFX studio and has had some mild improvements / iterations over time. At any rate ANY trained channeler should completely body the main cast, since none of Egwene / Nyneave / Rand / Elayne have been shown to know how to counter shields and other weaves at this point. And apparently the Aes Sedai in this age don't know what a tied off or inverted weave is lmao.
@@joem5037 Yes... and they can't even tell the difference between being shielded and being stilled. Stupid show-runner, wasting all that screen time on family drama crap.
Do the 'writers' collaborate at all? it seems that some episode narratives undermine or contradict others. I mean, we have buildup that Nynaeve and Elayne are in Falme to rescue Egwene, as in the books. They acquire a Sul'dam disguise, as in the books. This is then totally irrelevant as Egwene frees herself and then holds off Ishamael for good measure. I guess they are not bothering with power levels in the show.
They have transformed one of fantasies best hard magic systems into a soft magic system that just does whatever the current writer wants it to. Its dumb.
I hated that the Aes Sedai break their oaths for drama over and over. That Egwaine frees herself with confusing methods. How did she not die when she was still collared? I feel like so much was done for drama. I especially hate that so many channels don't see anything wrong. And so many think those of us that didn't like the show think we don't understand how television works. How not only do things need to be changed due to the medium as well as time and number of book characters but also that we don't understand how episodes have a pattern that needs to be followed so the story must be organized within each episode. I think a good writing team would be able to plot out the story so it could be contained within episodes. And that lore and world building can be comprehensive in a tv show. It has been so fuzzy in the show. Like they don't want to commit to anything. I very much appreciate Amy for being able to watch the show and point out the problems. I want better from the writers and show runners. And I want better from the reviewers.
Before the show ever came out Nae Blis did a breakdown of how one might adapt the books into a 8 season format. It was pretty spot on. Now he's one of the biggest apologizers imaginable. Daniel Greene is slightly little better, but no. You'd watch these channels and think, hmmm, this actually might be a halfway decent show on its own merits! It's not like I'm suddenly so dumb I forgot how to watch TV correctly.
Not only do these reviewers think we know nothing about how television works, but they keep making the same straw man argument we can't expect to have a 1 for 1 adaptation of the books. I have yet to see a critic of the show say that they wanted a 1 for 1 adaptation. We know that it's not possible! We just want an adaptation that is true to the themes, characters, and major plot points of the books. I don't like comparing The Wheel of Time to Game of Thrones, but the early seasons stuck closely to the source material, and what changes they made usually enhanced the story and did not go against the characters, themes, or lore.
The worst part is that when you point out the absurdity of Egwene freeing herself based on the rules that the writers themselves developed, they come up with absurd explanations with no evidence all from any of the events in the show. Where did that come from?
@@Guairedarksbane I too make the comparison because GoT did do a faithful adaptation during the early seasons. Maybe even a lot of the last ones though it became clear when they began with "subverting expectations," plot armor, and logic and consistency thrown away for their big moments. Something I feel that WoT started with. We have seen them take an IP and do a good job at adaption so we know it can be done. And us book readers are very aware of the changes GoT did and we were mostly ok with it. I personally wanted the same with WoT.
Thank you for your excellent analysis videos, and pardon me not commenting on them earlier. I think they are great. I especially liked that your thumbnail featured the question of Moiraine breaking the 3rd Oath, since this was the thing that bothered me most of the whole season, and was an unfortunate end to the whole unfortunate Moiraine storyline. One of your earlier videos highlighted the secret of how I enjoy watching the show: Don't think too much; just watch. But, eventually I think...and dissect the problems...which I ALSO enjoy. So I really appreciate your videos.
This is at least their 2nd or 3rd “Let’s have Luke attempt to murder one of his students” moments. (He wouldn‘t kill Vader because there was good in him). Completely against character and world. Though after E7 where Moraine has to be commanded 3 times to follow her oath to obey, they kinda set up that someone has to “call” them on the oaths for them to work.
I enjoy your balanced takes. Faithful adaptations have been enormously successful cultural cornerstones: LotR moves, Harry Potter, Game of Thrones (before they ran out of books). As a book reader, it's hard for me to understand why they have chosen the route of inconsistent worldbuilding and often illogical storytelling instead of choosing to do a more direct adaptation. The most obvious reason is that they want flexibility - the flexibility to make whatever scenes they need to fulfill whatever objectives they have, whether corporate or dramatic. Some of those objectives are obvious (like increasing Moiraine's role for Rosamund Pike), others not so obvious. I mean, doesn't it seem like they are trying to attract non-fantasy-viewing older women by inserting so many of the Aes Sedai/Warder scenes that are just talking? Or is the issue that they are contractually required to give Daniel Henney a significant storyline? I don't watch full episodes - I just fast forward to the fights with the One Power mostly or to watch Natasha O'Keefe, so I did watch most of this episode. This episode was entertaining - stuff did happen - some of it actually from the books! And they actually got me excited for Moghedien (although, as you mentioned, she has a very different personality than in the books.) I will quibble with one of your takes: I thought the explanation about the sul'dam just being really weak channelers was okay for the purpose of the TV adaptation. They are avoiding the "spark v teachable" distinction. Instead they are drawing a distinction between weak channelers (Lady Amalisa/sul'dam) and strong channelers (Aes Sedai/Damane). But without more context it's not very interesting. They just needed Egwene to attend one lecture in the White Tower where they said something like "1 in 5000 can channel, only 1 in 3 of those could become Aes Sedai" - then the viewer knows Renna and the sul'dam are in that 2/3 out (or whatever). Again, they just refuse to flesh things out to make it more interesting.
This story fails not because of some real world adaptive necessary things, but because they are messing with the actual story in the books. Like, I have no problem with expanding Lan and Morraine's role. Pike is the lead and maybe you need that in the TV show where maybe having her name attached to it got it made in the first place. Little things like we recognize some of the "heroes" when Mat blows the horn, because having someone there we know makes better TV than a bunch of people we never saw? That is fine. But when you are fundamentally changing the entire main plot, that is a problem. It would be like in Harry Potter, Herminie being the bad ass magic user the whole time and even fighting Voldemort, and carting Harry off to some side getting beat all the time but they call him the chosen one. It would make no sense and destroy the entire point of the story, but that is precisely what they are doing here.
@@bobross1829 I don't think it would be a good idea to try to adapt the books too faithfully, because the books aren't that good. Just like the show, they have a cool story, but it's poorly developed and there's a lot of stuff that doesn't make any sense and it seems like it's that way because the writer couldn't write better. The problem with the show is that it doesn't have enough time. Just 8 episodes is not enough. But the show made me like the characters enough to keep reading the books, even though I don't like they there.
@@DiegoFernandesLima I do admit that there are people that do not like the books either and really all "high fantasy". The critic set thinks it is all dumb and silly.
The stupid cavallerie charge of a wall just to dismount, was also done in the finale of the last season, where apperently the great skill of the Shinaran cavallerie was to transport them some meters to their wall in Tarwins Gap. Also the back and forth with horses in the ways: They seem not to know what to do with them.
I think that you see a lot of high score reviews on TH-cam for this reason: Many of the channels reviewing this show on TH-cam are channels where the wheel of time is over 60% of their content. Such channels can't afford to be vicious towards anything wheel of time related. The reason is they know they might turn people away from the wheel of time if they did, and people turned away from the wheel of time would be very unlikely to watch a TH-cam channel focused almost exclusively on it.
Season 2 did not tank making high score reviews possible. That of course wasn't what happened last season. I'd say the Wheel Of Time team had a successful season 2.
@@ArthurSullivan-cq4uw Imo it's a mixed bag. The nielsen numbers for wot season 2 aren't that good. There's almost 0 trending around the shows. Even the youtube videos don't get enough views to call the show successful. The show is too niche to be a success and I think the writings and quality are a part of it. For example the witcher s 1( which imo was bad) is more successful than wot season 1 or 2
Oh come on, they are not all sellouts. I am a book fan and I find all of the above mentioned stuff, aka the bad writing, annoying, but i still enjoyed the show, the visuals, the acting. But most of all: A reintroduction of surprise and wonder to the material. Some changes were nice, like Liandrin. Most were bad. But still, I love reengaging with WoT and seeing non-book readers and readers. react. I also forgave the books a lot of stupid stuff, like the "Slayer"-villan, the Green man, the "sniffer", the weird timeline (of 2 years), Egwene being a novice for 2 months and an Accepted for 3 days but knowing the Tower like the back of her hand, etc.
Given the plotline deviated from the books already, here's what I'd have liked to see with the Nynaeve/Elayne piece: Nynaeve fails to channel to heal Elayne's leg and they are in more pressing danger of being caught. In desperation, Nynaeve gives Elayne the adam to put on her so Elayne can force Nynaeve to channel and heal Elayne's leg and later heal Rand. That gives Nynaeve something to do and also explains Elayne's untrained ability to heal a wound. Plus, after the humiliation of having to wear the collar, Nynaeve's got some serious motivation to get past her block in season 3.
That's better than what we saw in the episode. Unfortunately they needed Nynaeve to be blocked to set her arc up for next season. That self-imposed constraint made for cumbersome choices in my opinion. The middle part of the Nynaeve/Elayne piece is my only real gripe with this episode.
I took Geofram's comment about having something the enemy doesn't was more meant to be along the lines of "The Light is on our side," as opposed to having super powerful incensors that produce ridiculous amounts of sound-masking incense specifically. Though, Dain later does remark "it's working" after the catapult scene, so who even knows.
I feel like this could be easily defeated by just blowing the fog away with air. Then again a breach at the gate could easily be defeated by lowering the portcullis
Great break down, Amy. I had an issue with Lan taking out 20 or so elite guards on the beach - then it took the summoned heroes and Matt to take out twice that number??? Huh? 🤣
oh focusing on Lan and NOT on the clearly channeling woman behind her by spreading out to get around Lan is beyound stupid. Even the archer on top of the hill shoots at him instead on Moraine's back. "dumbception" at its finest ( the plot device that only by adversaries behaving equally dumb in a situation when protagonists/antagonist are doing something dumb, the latters action is not botched )
One of the greatest weaknesses of damane is that they cant link.... also they typically cant split flows and do some of the fancier stuff ae sedai can do. However at war they are superior. As an aside if your curious the swell media does some videos where she talks frankly about how her channel grew and how she handles it. Might be worth a peak
They almost only learn battle weaves. But as individual channelers they are just as proficient if trained in those weaves, tho we can presume Seanchan has access to a different set of weaves than the Tower channelers. There is a battle in which the Seanchan Damane’s inability to link results in them being unable to stop a full circle.
The three oaths are the same, they made a big point early on in season one of pointing that out to book fans. They then this season made a big point of pointing out the oaths were not breakable. This of course means show Moiraine is a dark friend. As she clearly violates the oath against killing with the one power. There have been show defenders pretending that since the Seanchan were attacking Rand that made it ok. Which is wrong on multiple levels. You can attack Rand and not be a dark friend and even if they attacked Rand that did not let Aes Sedai in the books use the one power to kill. There are multiple instances of Aes Sedai in the books having to take themselves and their warders down into combat in fights between the dragons armies and other peoples armies in order to be in danger enough to use the one power as a weapon. This scene in the show is a clear an obvious violation of the three oaths. She and Lan even talk about it right before she does it, with Moiraine telling Rand she doesn't care if there are innocent people on the boats she would let a thousand innocents die to protect Rand. Which its perfectly fine for her to feel that way, she just can't like literally can't use the one power to do what she then did. She knows there are people on those ships who aren't dark friends, but she slaughters them all anyway. If she is bound by the oaths she can't do what she did. Its not about want or not want or being dedicated to the dragons cause. She can't. But they needed to give Rosmund Pike a cool scene at the end to justify spending all that money on her so here we are. This actually brings up one of my biggest complaints about the show. They have taken one of the best hard magic systems in fantasy and turned it into the prime example of why soft magic systems are garbage. Why you should never relay on Dues Ex Machina to get your characters out of problems because ultimately its super boring to watch them ignore the rules again and again. They set up the rules and then ignore them and this confuses not only book readers who at least understand the rules they are breaking, but also non book readers who only have the shows own set of rules to go by. We see this in Rand's story where it took multiple women to shield Logain but only one ever to shield Rand. He's learned nothing then all of a sudden hes killing a dozen armed men and sparing one in the process which is way more complicated then just like hurling fire of something that would have made sense. We see it in Egwene's story where clearly, by the shows own set of rules, she should not have been able to pick up the A'dam nor should she have been able to collar Renna. I have seen show defenders pretending that since the collar isn't a weapon she could pick it up, but a water pitcher is also not a weapon, its the intent behind picking the item up that causes the pain. So thats a really dumb argument. They just decided Egwene can't ever be rescued even by other women. Period. So they broke their own rules and the story suffered for it. Not only is Moiraine a dark friend but she shouldn't even have been able to do what she did, shes not strong enough. Like the Dragon or Ishmael, or maybe Lanfear could have done what she did, but not Moiraine. But again they paid Rosmund Pike so here we are. Also apparently male channelers aren't really that big of a threat because all you have to do is link some female channelers together and have them weave a shield in a general direction and *POOF* they are shielded. Even from miles away, even when you can't see them. Just shield in a general direction and hope for the best apparently works. This is just stupid story telling. Just lazy stupid story telling.
That oath against killing is not absolute. It has an exception for darkfriends and and for shadowspawn. The oath rod does not know who is a shadowfriend, so its power depends on the beliefs of the Aes Sedai. Morraine could kill as many Seanchan as she likes so long as she has convinced herself that they are Darkfriends, which might not be hard to do if she knows they are working for Ishamael.
@@magister343 No, the oath against using the one power as a weapon is absolute, with three exceptions. One to defend her life or her warders life, two to defend another sister, and three against dark spawn and dark friends. Moiraine does not know the WHO IS ON THE BOATS. She literally discusses with Lan moments before that she "thinks they are shielding Rand." Why? Because reasons thats why. She is just guessing. She even goes so far as to say she will lets thousands of innocents die to save Rand. Which is cool and all but doesn't absolve her of her oath. She has no idea who the people on the boats are, and only a small suspicion of who the channelers are shielding. For all she knows the channelers on the boats could BE Aes Sedai shielding Ishmael. She doesn't know. Which is exactly why she couldn't do what she did. She only has the idea in her head that they might be bad because a literal forsaken told her to do what needed to be done whatever that means. Even if she thought that the channelers on the ONE boat were shielding Rand and somehow came to the conclusion they must be dark friends. She might then be able to destroy that ship but certainly not every fucking ship in the harbor. I mean give me a break man. The oaths mean NOTHING if an Aes Sedai can just decide to murder thousands of people because she got a wild hair. Get real.
@@aaronc4899 Holy cow I did forget about that. Wait I will have to re-watch that scene, did he put his hand on his sword like he was going to stop her from interfering with Moiraine in that scene....I mean regardless she wouldn't have seriously thought he would harm her in any real way so I guess that wouldn't matter. Its true though in the books the Aes Sedai often used weaves of air to capture or hold people but never attacked them like that....that is another clear violation of the oaths and I didn't even catch it. That scene is so weird and out of character for everyone involved that that part didn't even register.
@@JayAshkevron She threw him into a wall so hard that he lost consciousness. That is potentially lethal damage, and certainly falls under the category “as a weapon”. Yes, he was running towards her in order to intercede, but that does not mean he was on his way to try to kill her. She also knows he is a loyal subject to Tar Valon, so she has no reason to fear for her life. As you mentioned, the Aes Sedai don’t have to resort to extreme force in order to manage a nuisance - their powerful telekinesis allows them to levitate people without hurting them.
Rafe Judkins needs to let someone else handle his battles. The cavalry charge right into a wall and then magically appear dismounted inside. That's only a fractional step up from the season 1 cavalry charging at the back of their own wall. I'm not opposed to an epic slow-mo charge sequence, but jeez, it has to be at some opponents, you can't have horses run at a wall. And then there was 0 real spatial logic to follow inside the city, main characters just ambled along to the most important tower, yet innocents couldn't escape the fighting? And the damane were used terribly, all placed in 1 easily attacked location to slowly shoot piddly bolts of fire. And not to mention somehow secretly getting those giant catapults up and in to range within minutes...The choreography and effects were a large step up from season 1 thankfully, but the logic is still not there.
...Really, why did they not just shoot it like from the books (if I'm remembering this right): Have the Children of the Light do their slo-mo charge just like as shot except further out. Have the Seanchan army out on the field to meet them. Conveniently for budget reasons right before they'd impact, have the Horn mist obscure everything. Seems the sole need for the Whitecloaks in the city proper was to give Perrin his moment to kill one.
All the fight scenes throughout the show were poorly planned and executed. Having more characters on screen doesn't make a better scene. Aviendha's fight is so bad...
The close-quarters combat scenes were awful - way too much shaky-cam and way too many edits. It's a problem not unprecedented with female directors - they seem to prefer blistering barrages of magic fireballs, even from a male hero. 🙂
Let's be real, no hate toward the man, but Rafe is at best a very mediocre writer and for sure shouldn't be the one to write battle sequences, they have been terrible till now. To add to what you said, how the hell did the Seanchan not hear the Whitecloaks coming? 🤦♀
I thought it was a bold choice to reveal that Moiraine is Black Ajah and working in league with Ishamael, faking Dragon Prophecies to convince Rand and the World that the Dragon Reborn Reborn has been found when clearly the pattern has yet to weigh in on the matter. Can't wait to see how this develops in season 3.
I'm not sure where you got this from. She's clearly working with Lanfear against Ishamael. She even says that before she breaks the three oaths and kills the people Ishy stupidly put bunched up together.
@@christophercraig3907 I will admit I don't know how Lanfear plays into the plot or why she thinks Rand is the true Dragon Reborn Reborn. But Ishy just standing there letting Rand him kill him while Moiraine fakes the dragon prophecy seem to go hand-in-hand with convincing Rand (and the world) that he really is the Dragon Reborn Reborn. I suppose it could be a coincidence. I can only assume Ishamael has the real Dragon Reborn Reborn locked up somewhere safe.
@@mewlins Okay, I thought this was pretty obvious, but there's a Darkfriend civil war going on of Lanfear against Ishy. Lanfear and Moiraine had teamed up to put Rand in Cairhein where Lanfear could get to him, but he wasn't progressing and needed to be shaken up so she sent a coded message through Bayle Domon to Moiraine (which is why Lan couldn't read it even though he's so fluent in the Old Tongue he can read about One Power practices lost to current Aes Sedai). Moiraine tried to push Lan away because she cares for him and didn't want him mixed up in a fight between two Forsaken, but he didn't get it and went to Siuan, who was still taking orders from Ishy. Siuan tried to keep Rand in the White Tower until Ishy's plan was ready, but Moiraine had orders from Lanfear to break him out, which is why she had to go against her lover and do it anyway. It's a pretty tragic season overall. (And for anyone else that doesn't get it, yes I totally understand this is complete nonsense that happens to have higher explanatory power than the actual show)
@@christophercraig3907 I would actually forgive this dumpster fire of a show if what you guys are saying were actually true. It makes so much more sense then the plot of the show. In this "turning of the wheel" the dragon hasn't even been reborn yet, its just a battle of the forsaken vying for power and manipulating everyone to their own ends.
I always found Robert Jordan's blending of religions and cultures in WOT interesting. In religions that believe in reincarnation (Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, Sikhism), the ultimate goal is to be released from the cycle of death and rebirth (which is Nirvana), so I guess Ishamael is hoping for that. The Whitecloaks represent the old Crusades and Inquisition. So many different cities and lands in the books. Such a shame that the show doesn't show us more of the various cultures and beliefs rather than the juvenile YA romance interplay stuff. It's like this world is so small and has maybe a thousand people in it. This could have been such an interesting TV show - so disappointing.
I bet ya they changed how Egwene escaped was because she's a strong woman and can't be saved by a man. And further, after seeing the ideological bent of the show, I bet Rand does not free himself from a certain box, and instead Egwene or one of the female cast rescues him.
@@bidossessi not from adam. it was nyneave. but later when they escape egwene got ptds and attack random seanchan and they get trapped.. and then rand and others come in with horn stuff and distract seanchan. white cloaks where minor treat and they got wiped out fast. rand also fighted and killed turak and seanchan was focus on them letting egwene and others escape faster.
But the Dragon wasn't "proclaimed". The prophecy was manipulated by Moiraine, which completely undermines what prophecy is lol. I mean, if it was that easy, with the Tower's "rules" regarding the Dragon Reborn, wouldn't Aes Sedai have just channeled to "proclaim" the Dragon of their choice? Like a women, since they established a female could be the Dragon? I mean last episode Siuan was all "WE will use the Dragon, as WE see fit to suit OUR purpose and chain him up and WE will decide what happens with him and when!". This would be like Rand branding himself with the herons rather than it happening by happenstance, unintentionally.
with how weak Ishmael is if Egwene and Moraine were linked they would have beat him without help with how OP Rafe has made them. Rafe and the other showrunner hate the books.
Idk in the books there where meny false dragons up to the point rand banner apeared in falme so imo this was fine as not tell the stone falls that the real dragon can be named in the books but seems tear is not going to focus next season so not sure when he will pull the sword
@@DaleVieira12 the banner raised in the book was for the Heroes to follow Rand though, nobody really made a point of proclaiming him, people just saw the fight and realized what was going on.
While I enjoyed simply watching, without thinking, S2 more than S1, this show is the result of writing that is based on... 1. "Wouldn't it be cool if..." 2. Everyone is a victim/beneficiary of circumstance rather than having personal agency in what they do. That is partially what has contributed to the book character assassination pretty much across the board. The boys are just difficult to root for when they are made out to have questionable character that needs to be overcome rather than difficult circumstances. I get the simplified plot of Perrin killing Bornhald, but in this sequence of events, he straight-up murders him under no threat to himself.
So I really don't understand the perspective that this scene with Perrin is worse or makes Perrin bad, its darker and grittier then the books sure. You are looking at it like Perrin had his dog killed by a guy so he's not justified in killing that guy in return since dogs aren't as valuable as human life. But this isn't real life and that isn't just a dog. Would you feel the same way if Perrin had a close human friend Bornhald killed? Would he still not be allowed to kill in revenge of the loss of that friend? Because to Perrin the wolves are intelligent fully realized creatures that are not that different from human friends. This is a fantasy world after all. Animals a intelligent companions is fairly common in fantasy. So to say this makes Perrin a murderer is to say Egwene is a murderer(which as an aside she clearly is), and Rand is a murderer killing Ishy, since they clearly were in no danger of Ishmael what with Egwene being there to protect them. Ok that part was just a snarky aside. Anyway the point is Bornhald was justified in killing what he saw as a random wolf attacking his friend, but Perrin was just as justified killing Bornhald after he killed his friend.
One missed opportunity from a change in season 1 that I think reverberated negatively into season 2 was the first meeting between Elayne and Rand, and how it potentially effects the first meeting between Egwene and Elayne. In the books, Elayne's already met Rand at this point so the girls' meeting has an extra layer of complexity because Elayne is sort of a smitten kitten when it comes to Rand while Egwene has just ended a relationship with him. It's been years since I read them so I can't quite remember how it goes in the book, but even from a purely show standpoint, there's a lot of potential dramatic tension to mine from that dynamic, while also avoiding the issues you bring up in the video regarding Rand coming across as a bit of a cad for being all into Elayne in the middle of rescuing Egwene... But you know, they needed the screentime to show us Stepen committing suicide for an entire episode instead of having the boys visit Caemlyn.
Seriously. Egwene doesn't officially dump Rand until book 4 when she maneuvers Elayne to "pick him up" (remember, Rand wonders if they planned it--they did). But Rand and Egwene were over by Book 2, maybe Book 1, when Egwene decided to be an Aes Sedai and learned Rand could channel. Also, she meets Gawyn and Galad in Book 2 and is clearly into both, although she denies it. Moving when Rand meets Elayne is fine, but having him bounce between women the way he does in the show demonstrates a misunderstanding of his character. He does have three girlfriends in the books, but up until the end he is rotating between them and never fully committed because he thinks he isn't going to live long. And he still tries to marry Aviendah after sleeping with her. Rand is cutely daft when it comes to women. He is not a player. He is just really lonely.
@@amys0482 "Rand is cutely daft when it comes to women. He is not a player. He is just really lonely." might just be the best description of Rand that I've ever heard.
I'm pretty sure that Dain doesn't meet with his father immediately prior to his father's death at Falme, he learns of his father's death from Byar. Dain is with Valda near Tar Valon when Geofram is called to Amador and then Falme
@@andrewfrank7222 No, but he does murder two Whitecloaks in similar circumstances which is at least one of the reason why Dain Bornhold is after him. So they didn't make Show-Perrin into something that Book-Perrin isn't. For me that is the kind of change/simplification I am ok with.
@@gildor8866 in the books, Perrin’s action is preceded by stalking and illegal threats from soldiers, and many people debate this being self defense in the books. In the show, it is murder, with the claim of temporary insanity, but it is so much darker because a few minutes ago Perrin was fighting back to back with Dain (how that makes sense a few days after Perrin slaughtered a minority of a squad with Avienda doing the lion’s share)…
@@jsbrads1 Dain and Perrin fighting back to back is just the chaos of the battle. Dain is certainly surprised to see him there, but he has more pressing needs right now. IIRC Perring and Aviendha didn't kill any whitecloaks during the fight so right now for Dain he is the lesser evil and the enemy of his enemy. Valda clearly thinks different. I don't think the selfdefense-argument concerning Perrin in the books is very convincing, given that the killing is triggered by the whitecloaks killing Hopper in a clear case of selfdefense themselves, same as Bornhold does in the show. But the show leaves even less room for it.
I'm glad you mentioned the goofy way Rand was holding the sword. If you look deeper into it, it really shows the productions lack of competence and understanding of core concepts(not just from the books, but what they're trying to achieve). The entire basis of the "Heron marked sword" concept from the book is so Rand can get his prophecy brand on his palms. The show has seen this, decided to keep it, but put the heron mark in a place where nobody bar a toddler would hold a sword. The ENTIRE reason the brand ends up a perfect representation of the heron(in the books) is that it's the only metal part he's touching when the sword super heats. In the show, he just burnt his entire hand and cut 3 fingers off. Also, a glaring continuity flaw re the heron. There is ONE scene where there actually IS a heron on the hilt(where it's meant to be). That's the turok scene. They added it so turok could see the heron and have his line. They intentionally broke continuity, so one guy could have one line in one scene...geniuses
I get the point regarding the inconsistency with Rand's ability to channel. There's some of that even in the book, though. I always attributed it to the fact that he does have LT's memories there even at this point ( like he tells Min: "I may be him now, but he was always me as well. I was always him."). So I think there's a built in explanation for him to weave by instinct. I had more of an issue with Siuan being able to shield him so easily in Ep. 7. He had already embraced the source in that scene. She would not have been strong enough to cut him off, even with more training IMO.
And you don't even have to reach into the books to make your point. They themselves established in the show it took at least two Aes Sedai to shield Logain, and Logain says Rand is stronger then he is, so all those scenes make no sense.
Maybe it’s just me, but if I was guarding the city walls and saw a large, unnatural smoke cloud followed by the thunderous drum of a cavalry charge, I’d probably slam close the city gates as fast as possible. What could the cavalry do after that? Falme is too big and way too fortified for this kind of attack to make sense. It has been a while since I read the Great Hunt but I always visualised Falme as a large town with wooden palisades at best for fortifications. It’s not as bad as trollocs climbing walls with bare hands, but it still shows a lack of research into medieval warfare
Mystery fog in the desert in the middle of the day... Seanchan familiar with fighting against armies using the One Power... You'd think the Ever Victorious Army would put two and two together.
This also explains why Rand didn't immediately die from being stabbed by the dagger, like happened to a not-main-character earlier in the same episode (and in the books).
I love your reviews. They're intelligent, well thought out and very fair. The show is sort of fun to watch but overall it is a huge letdown for book readers with plot holes everywhere.
Thank You for your boundless capacity to express rationally and kindly the limits the choices made by the people making this TV Show, impose on its capacity to produce quality viewing. Watching you after watching THAT… that being Episode 8, is my Sanity Medicine. Your conclusions are Myrrhic Balm on the open wounds watching the last 2 Epsiodes of Season 2 kept lashing open, before they could even scab over. Amy, Thank You for your efforts and kind hearted perseverance. Please don’t let the vagaries of the TH-cam algorithm make you think your work is not appreciated. Myrrh. It is purest Myrrh.
Great stuff Amy. I enjoy this format of delivering your opinions on the tube. Me being someone who haven't read this bookseries (but I have read other fantasy series such as lotr, asoiaf, HP, SoT among others) I appreciate to be kept in the loop with the references, half the enjoyment from watching famous adaptions is to see how often the failed at doing what the should, which is to retell the same story in a different medium. I understand the urge to not overly criticize actors since the get alot more flack than the usually deserves but claiming every character was "well casted" is a bit ... you know. For example the choices (made by writers, directors, producers and yes actress) with how Nynaeve was potraited and perceived was imo abyssmal. I dislike that character with passion and it makes someone question Zoe Robins acting capabilities. On the the other hand, despite having similar problems with the character choices (from above mentioned people), Rosamund Pike still conveyed her acting prowess across the screen. Right choice for Moraine? Who knows, but here they def cast a proper actor.
I dislike show Moiraine so much that's easy for me to dislike Rosamund Pike as well. I can't see any daylight there between the two. I just want them to go away. On the other hand, I also dislike show Nynaeve but I think Zoe Robins' acting is pretty good. She's making memorable performances even with crap writing.
I will sacrifice myself so you can can run! Save the horn while I buy you time! Dies three seconds later and the five are all standing there watching him die...lol
@@amys0482 You don't think so? It's so key...Although you never can tell when they change stuff. And of course its [spoiler] use seems like the kind of route the show already tries to go.
Love your commentary as always, but I have to disagree with how the show handled the Perrin and the white cloaks conflict. as you mentioned in the books Perrin was accused of being involved in the death of Geofram Bornhald by second hand information, and Perrin was able to avoid trial buy a sort of technicality which is justified because he was innocent of what he was accused of. But know he has been seen first hand, by Dain of actually killing Bornhald. I'm sure the writers think they cleverly created an event that will lead to the Two Rivers battel from Book 4, but it is just another example of changes the will lead to problems later on.
I also left out the thematic importance of misinformation and disinformation in WOT, but I can see that for TV this conflict has more immediate grit. Perrin can't be absolved like he is in the books so you would have to solve that conflict another way, but I do think that is possible to do.
Putting a hand on the blade is possible without hurting oneself, and was done back in our middle ages (as seen in paintings and sword manuals). It's called the murderstroke. But it was used mostly do defeat heavily armored opponents in the late middle ages, to either bludgeon them or get into the armor's gaps. It doesn't make that much sense when attacking Ishamael, who wears no armor. It was done in the show just so that Rand's hands are being engraved with the heron mark. In the books, the heron signs are on the pommel, in the show they're on the blade.
Maybe wearing gloves, or if the ricasso is long enough to fit your hand, but neither of those things are present in the show. In the books, the heron mark is on the hilt, where it is in the Turok scene of the show, but ONLY the Turok scene.
Amy thank you very much for this service that you are done. Being a huge book fan myself I was never able to separate screen from print as well as you seem to have done and I cannot watch the second season and nothing that you are other people have said have made me even want to try. Looking forward to more content from you get some rest and I'll see you again soon
1:21:00 Agreed. It is fine to see what this creation will do. But clearly they do not know how to handle building up 5-6 main characters without making them do silly/horrible things. No one tuned in to this, to see GoT light. No one cares now about their love interests. The books on that front were compelling in that they were all young men and women first time falling in love/dealing with crushes/etc amongst these crazy responsibilities they now have. This stuff is comical. The world is ending and we are worried about lesbian lust and threesomes. Rand and Lanfear hooking up is pointless nonsense that only serves to weaken ANY relationship Rand now has. Instead of being innocent, he is a bumbling yocal making his way to Vegas for the first time.
Couldn’t agree more. I’m a long time book reader who doesn’t mind when they change things from the books if they make sense… however a lot of what the show does contradicts “rules” that they have established themselves. I personally don’t know how they managed to merge two great books together and produce something where half the episodes were just boring time wasting. Like yourself I don’t hate it, just know that it could be better.
Got a lot of thoughts, not in sequence, my apologies...I think the ayahuasca tea was supposed to be Mat's first trip to Aelfinn, then horn takes place of 2nd trip to Eelfinn. He has his memories and a lame "ashandarei", only thing he doesnt have is the fox medallion, but pretty sure they just wrote out the snakes/foxes/tower of Ghenjei, all of which totally sucks. Now that season is over, i feel even stronger about how much time was wasted on Liandrin, don't care how good the individual performance was, it wasted TOO much time building up a character who is not THAT important in the grand scheme...unless she is replacing Elaida then maybe, but at this point totally took time from dev for Rand or Perrin. Hate that Perrin actually kills Geofram Bornhald, this totally efs up Dain's internal conflict w/ his obsession for vengeance. He has zero reason to question or doubt his convictions now, b/c Perrin DID kill Geofram, SO STUPID. Also, Valda was dead set on killing Perrin, but soon as hopper gets the axe he just drops in with Bornhald and leaves Perrin? I dont care if Bornhald says "Valda, w/ me." He wouldnt just leave Perrin there! The smoking censers were extremely stupid, and supposed to evoke the mist that gathered when the horn is blown and from which the Hunters for the Horn rise, STUPID! Ishameal and Egwene's stand off was infuriating, Rand can't do anything himself, he has to be prop'd up by Egwene so they can use her awesome theme music and get their money's worth for that sound bed, i guess ;). Ishameal just lets everyone under the sun come up the stairs and assist rand too? Like he couldn't spare a fire ball for them? All of sudden Mat's dagger is a light saber that melts everything like butter, still not sure how Loial is alive and well after getting cut/stabbed by it. Turok knew what was in the box w/o being told and how to open it, but I guess he was the only one with this omniscient knowledge. Stupid that Loial and Ingtar just showed up with case/horn in hand w/ a passing comment about a "Cairhien woman's help"' obviously Lanfear, but you couldn't spare a scene or two to show these events? Oh i forgot how much time you wasted on Lan taking a piss, Liandrin being a mother, amongst others. Moiraine's "dragon banner" was so fucking cheesy, I thought I was watching Percy Jackson or some other YA level magic conjuration, and why the ef does this signal Car'a'carn to Aviendha? There's absolutely no groundwork for this in show and that is not how the Car'a'carn is claimed amongst the Aeil. He has to go to Rhuidean and the pillars and gain the dragon tatoos on both arms...SO EFFING STUPID. I could go on, but feel like ive reached my character limit, plus im having to senor my language now, so should stop ;). Can't understand the glowing reviews for this show though, guess its b/c S1was so bad that S2 seems amazing in comparison, and that's the only metric used to quantify/qualify the value of this show.
P.S. I had the exact same thought about Aeil raising their veils in that moemnt, shouldve already been up and prepared to kill. As for Mat finding Perrin, could've easily been explained by Ta'verens at work with Loail's iconic line, "hmmmm, Ta'veren!" but they've done absolutely nothing to reinforce this phenomenon after laying the groundwork in S1.
Yes, I also noticed that 2 out of 3 Eelfinn purchases have now been accomplished- without Mat even visiting their realm. That "light saber" quality will sure come in handy when he does finally visit, IF he visits. How does Ishy's tea emulate the Aelfinn visit, though? If anything, it's probably the opposite, since the Snakes don't lie (even if their answers are rather murky). It's only because of Mat's visit to their realm that he then goes to see the Foxes. If those visits aren't in the show, and Mat gets the fox medallion some other way... Then what's the point of even having the Tower of Ghenjei? Moiraine's storyline is jacked, and Mat's makeshift ashanderei isn't needed. And where does that leave Thom? Somebody make it make sense.
The show is a garbage fire fueled by the hate of the source material by Rafe. Rafe sets up a rescue of Egwene then has her break the tv and book rules and free herself. No pay off for Jake Al'Thor once again. Mat is unlucky and gets tricked and blows horn to fight 20 soldiers, wah wah. Did either of the show runners actually read the books?
Having not read the books, I went along with quite a bit of the episode and enjoyed it. However what stood out, even with my limited knowledge, was how Egwene was able to stand up to Ishamael. Fair enough, she was clearly struggling to hold him back but even in the show the Forsaken have been set up as far more powerful than the Aes Sedai, and Egwene hasn't even completed her training! As you say, its clearly an example of giving a main character extra powers at the expense of logic.
You are not their target audience. Their target audience doesn't like or cannot use their brain. They don't think so they don't ask questions like that.
@Amy_Stewart In the book doesn't Nynaeve also throw up the first time she uses the a'dam ? to help further reinforce her dispising it's use. But in the show they make her seem to e leaning towards evil. There's something worse with the Egwene putting the collar on rene, like she see's it as a weapon and a way of capturing Rene so how on earth did she pick it up in the first place cos we've been shown she can't touch the pitcher till she's trained herself not to see it as a weapon ( i may be projecting book here though). Valder isn't dead or shouldn't be for getting bit on an armoured arm . They got around the Taren Ferry thing with the fact she'd finished channeling when the guy swam out there and died so her channeling wasn't a direct result. and i'm pretty sure they said cannot kill except in their own defence in season 1 so yeah Moiraine broke the oath, ot like it's hard to as verin does it :| Women are stronger in the power than men, you should know this as a book reader :| ( cough cough splutter splutter) so of course Egwene can hold off Ishmael as a complete noob. Of course my question is with all the fireballs why didn't the Sul'dam gentle him like wasn't that the signal ? Also Mghedien was weaker than Lanfear in the books, and it seems that she's stronger here :| by be able to hold lanfear.
yeah the term and interpretation of "weapon" is important here. They trained her not to touch something as a weapon which she wanted to smash into Renna's face. The a'dam, whilst it is able to mete out punishment, is a ter'angreal which Egwene has realised creates a link between channellers. So she can easily disregard it as a weapon. In my opinion anyway.
@@TevitolMUN this could work if they hadn't shown how the link worked with punishment being able to be inflicted with just a thought and Egwene knows this and she actively did this with the intent to ensnare her, if rene had of fallen on the collar and it attached and then egwene pick up the bracelet then possibly but even then not to sure :|
@@TevitolMUN if that was the case then the a'dam wouldn't of hurt her when she was doing the mental abuse and killing rene, which is shown to be happening during the exchange, so it's not assault it's the thought of using an item as a weapon or form of revenge and doesn't even have to be on the leash holder since no bracelet was worn when the pitcher incident happened
It's not the thought of using something as a weapon, but trying to touch something that is a weapon. (Egwene thought of using the pitcher as a weapon well before Renna first walked into her cell. It only caused her pain when she was just about to touch it) In episode 8, the pain Egwene was feeling was not due to her using a weapon, but because any pain her sul'dam feels is reciprocated to the damane.@@SirBlaze75
The only way the get around the oaths in this episode is if they see Rand as an Aes Sedai, which I guess they technically can. There is no rule that says Aes Sedai are female, they are because of the breaking of the world, were males were more or less forbidden to ever use the power again. It is also the fact that one of her sisters is up on that tower shielding the dragon, while her strengh is remarkable it will not last forever. In that regard you can see it as a protective weave to sink the ships. It is a bit of a stretch also think the Seanchan at this point are duped by the forsaken to there bidding, knowingly or not, which by definition turns them into darkfriends. I also believe it is supposed to look like Moiraine only sinks the ships, she is targeting were the fire erupts, and we never see a single human die from it, also a stretch but I believe it to be the case.
TBH I'm more willing to overlook the fact Morraine can attack them than I can overlook the fact she easily blows up all those ships. That's a crazy strength in the power and implies all of the main characters could blow up whole armies/fleets with ease. It also then makes the tiny fireballs that hit 1 person the damane are channeling seem so puny in comparison and not a real threat to a trained sister.
@@billtodd2194 that is an issue, I think Moiraine is scaled up in power however that does not work because she takes forever to open a gateway. I don't know, it's something the show runners do not understand is important to the fanbase. I guess she can be strong in battle weaves, and not anything else, that does not work with her chosen ajah. Yeah I just dont know. Unfortunate
...Book readers know Morraine is one of the strongest Aes Sedai until the main characters show up, but I don't think the show ever says that. So I would assume any nonreader would see Morraine blow up a bunch of ships and assume every sister can do that. And that's still again ignoring it's over-the-top even for Morraine too.
@@billtodd2194 I mean Lanfear can soe skin together, and flick her wrist to blow up heads. Many things are different, in that world I guess Moiraine is at least below Lanfear in strengh. I can solve Moghedien disarming her, with her having preparation already done which is in character for her, she set up the trap before with the spider weave. Also kinda believe she used the fades ability to turn into shadows, could be cool. The battle scene should of course have been granted to Alanna, it was set up that way, what was the point with her knowing about Lanfear? She did nothing about it at the end.
SPOILERS . . . 1. Show Whitecloaks at least have a plan: approach the walls under cover of the smoke, capture the gate, assault the tower where they predict the Seanchan artillery (the damane) will be. Book Whitecloaks just mount their horses and charge the city, which would have been dumb enough even if they hadn't already been spotted by Seanchan aerial scouts. The show has basically leveled up the WC at the expense of the Seanchan looking a bit dumber. 2. Show Lanfear is just more open about helping Rand. Book Lanfear probably does more for the cause of the Light than most of the good guys: she"s responsible for Rand getting channeling instruction from Asmodean, she brings Trollocs to protect Rand when the other Forsaken send Trollocs to attack him in the Stone of Tear, etc. Her motivation is pretty clear: she wants to rule the world with the Dragon Reborn (or some other powerful man, since she also encourages Mat and Perrin to be ambitious once or twice). . 3. I'm guessing the show chose to have Renna use physical threats because it's more visual than a'dam torture. There are only so many times you can watch people writhing in invisible pain before it stops being interesting, maybe? But yeah, Egwene is being particularly dumb here; why would you warn your captor of your plans? 4. The whole contest of wills thing didn't really make sense. If the person wearing the collar experiences double the effect of what happens to the person wearing the bracelet, shouldn't that cause some kind of cascading feedback effect that kills or incapacitates both of them? It's obvious what they were going for, it just didn't work conceptually for me. Plus it propagates that whole modern trope of a "strong woman" who doesn't need help from anyone. Men are called "toxic" when they refuse to get help, but women aren't. Double standards suck no matter who is benefiting from them. 5. I won't blame the show for using coincidences as much as it does, because Robert Jordan certainly did plenty of that. I *will* blame the show for not exploring the whole ta'veren concept a bit more, since *that* is the in-universe excuse for all the contrivances> 6. Yeah, show Ingtar either got too much screen time or not enough screen time. I think they were trying to set up a redemption, but then decided at the end that they hadn't done enough, so they half-assed it. 7. Yep, the show actually did a better job of setting up the Dain/Perrin conflict. 8. Yeah, unmasking the bond should take a bit less effort. Like you, just glad that whole plot is over. And yeah, power as a weapon seemed like a direct violation of the Oaths. 9. Rand's Indiana Jones moment was ... fine? He certainly hadn't earned a Blademaster-level swordfight. So I guess this was better than that.... 10. Yeah, just how many channelers does it take to shield Rand? /sigh /shrug 11. Yep, Uno was just as underdeveloped as Ingtar. Yet another result of tow few, too short episodes. Both seasons could have benefited massively from an extra hour or two. 12. Current consensus seems to be that Ishamael wasn't really trying to beat Egwene and that the whole scenario was yet another ruse/illusion. /shrug 13. I didn't mind Nynaeve being useless in the finale. So far she's gotten more hero moments than anyone else. 14. Elayne being a bad healer might help explain why the wound will never really heal. Maybe? 15. Rand's use of the sword is actually semi-historical; it's called half-swording. But the context is all wrong; it's normally used to aim for weak points in an enemy's armor. Ishamael isn't wearing armor, so.... 16. My biggest gripe is how many cool moments from the book didn't happen. Little things like Mat pointing out "does the prophecy say we can't blow the horn *before* the Last Battle?" and big things like Mat's duel with Gawyn and Galad. But, to be fair, even *good* adaptations like The Lord of the Rings and The Maltese Falcon have left out awesome scenes. But it's still disappointing.
Your Uno comment is spot on 🤦🏻♀️ it was so ridiculous that they included him as a Hero of the Horn when he hadn't displayed any heroic/noble qualities
Commenting for the algorithm. This was a great breakdown and hits home the inconsistency of the script really really well. I lament that the show doesn't have stronger writing. And I scratch my head thinking how the HELL I'm gonna fan edit this into a coherent story. Structure and plot wise it's a lot messier than S1.
I'm sorry if this is a double post. If you want sound help, feel free to reach out. I enjoy your commentary. Your sound balancing needs work. I'm willing to help. If you don't want help, I'll still be here. Thanks for posting. :)
Great review! FYI that metal smoke device the children used is called a "thurible" - which is used in some churches to purify a procession. I suppose the writers were trying to convey that the Whitecloaks think of themselves as on some sort of holy mission. Of course there is no explanation of this in the show.
A pretty good breakdown of the episode. Silly and incoherent. I'm not really a fan of silly and incoherent things but I suppose there are plenty of people who are. One tid bit: There is a sword technique called "half-swording" where a person would grip their sword blade in the way Rand does at the end of episode 8. So it is a thing, sort of. However, it's used in armored fighting in the western martial tradition when you're close to your opponent, often as part of a grappling sequence. The idea is to give you better point control as you try to thrust into the gaps in your opponent's armor. Of course, if you're opponent does not have armor (like Ishy here), then it serves no purpose. Speaking of armor. I'm irritated that no commentator has called out the show for having Perrin whack Bornhald to death with an axe swing right through a steel breast plate (or coat of plates maybe). Why does armor always do absolutely nothing in fantasy shows and why do audiences not care???? If you think pushing the fletching of an arrow through a wound is ridiculous, imagine swinging a metal baseball bat at an anvil and what that would do to your arm. Audiences deserve better than this silliness. We should mock shows without mercy for being so lazy.
maybe i am wrong, but isn't the "half-sword" technique not only used with two-handed weapons like the long sword ( yes, the D&D longsword is NOT accurately named 🤓) or great sword, but NOT with a Katana, which is very rarely used as a stabbing but almost exclusively slashing weapon? much more ridiculous than pushing a crossbow quarrel through a thigh is Elayne staying conscious throuout the process. Also, why the hell not just slapping the hell out of Nyneave to make her angry, then let her heal you with the One Power... And i absolutely mock this and other shows for being so lazy 🥸🤣😂
I too thought some of the scenes didn't make sense, but they did have a lot happen in the show and it seemed to move a lot better. The show did have some continuity problems with power/skill levels of the various characters. For what it's worth this is one of the better episodes of the season. I hope they keep improving. As always I appreciate your great insights. Thanks again.
Please take a break. That had to be exhausting. I’ve decided from now going forward just to watch your and Rachael’s? (Blocking on her name) reviews to see if it starts to make any sense. This episode I will admit is exciting, but has strayed to far from the books to have anyway back to the story I want to see. After five days enough of what that show was has leaked out of my brain and onto my pillow case that by a quick wash it will be gone and I can just go back to the books and reread the story that I love. Being angry that debt and obligation is paid by beating someone up just shows they have no understanding of this story, but is not serving me well. So thank you so very much for what you do. I look forward to your reviews.
I stopped watching after episode 4, so this may have been already answered in the show; but if all the seals are broken, then what is holding back the Dark One? Is there another set of seals that are keeping him bound?
31:27 In a previous episode, I recall Ishamael saying he knew / understood Lanfear's motivation(s), when she asked him why he released her out of all the Forsaken. I would typically interpret that as meaning he was confident in his ability to prevent or counter a betrayal from Lanfear - but in this episode he doesn't seem to come close to managing this - and it does makes him look incompetent. Does anyone have another view?
This was another letdown. They did Ishy bad too. In episode 5, they made us believe Ishy knows that Lanfear was gonna betray him.. I felt that acting and that drama was so cool. Season 2 set up ishy to be a master planner, but the very last episode showed us he had no clue! What a season😂😂😂
I've had a long time to think about the a'dam v a'dam scene in this episode and I think I figured it out - the collars cancel each other out; like they are unusable, not like they can be used against each other. That explains why 1. in the show, egwene is capable of channeling all of a sudden, and 2. why Egwene is able to hurt Renna. What I don't understand yet is why Egwene still felt the pain that renna was feeling.. maybe that psychic link was still viable.. Maybe I don't understand what happened. Thinking about this for too long makes my head hurt.
My bigger question is how Egwene got the collar on Renna when Egwene clearly meant to do Renna harm through the collar and we established she couldn't even pick something up if she meant to use it against her. It was a cool scene but so inconsistent
Interesting solution. But not all effects are cancelled out, since Renna got hurt from trying to hit Egwene. I figure that Egwene was able to mentally give Renna the command, "Let me channel," and then lofted her onto the convenient bracket. Renna might normally be able to block such a command, but it was unexpected and so got through...and only had to work once.
In the later books there is the example of a cross-warder bond (man bonded to woman and the woman bonded to the man) having unexpected effects. So I would definitely go with the two collars interacting with each other here. And its completly unknown how they react, cancelling each other out or short circuiting. What certainly does not happen is that they function like before because then any pain inflicted by one woman on the other would lead to a reeinforcing feedback-loop when each collar reflect the pain suffered by his "suldame" to his "damane".
I will say that Egwene being saved by coincidence and such is in keeping with them making her a ta'veren . so....huzzah!....I guess. 😆 Not that they have really set up ta'veren or anything.
Fantastic wrap up! Thanks for the great breakdowns for the season! I really enjoyed your take. If you get a chance go watch the live reaction on the Dusty Wheel with Brandon Sanderson and Daniel Greene for episode 8. You will feel immensely validated in your criticism of the plot and structure within the context of the show. Everything you thought didn't work were notes that Sanderson gave of what was wrong with the script - which apparently the show runner and writers ignored. By the way, the Shadar Logoth dagger on a stick is (apparently) the ashandarei according to Sanderson. Oh boy. I can't even wrap my brain around that one.
I hadn’t yet heard that Sanderson said that about the ashandaeri but I picked it up nonetheless when I saw it’s design and the fact that Mat used it to free himself when feeling trapped in a room (as he does in a later book). As time goes on, I’m growing more familiar with Mr. Judkins desire to take cool/interesting bits from various places in the books, and show them in his own different way, and this felt just like that.
You give the best reviews, thanks for putting them up! I totally agree with your views. I’ll never understand why they have to add or completely change scenes while also cutting 75% of the source material. I hope they change things up and actually devote a few minutes to character development. Right now it’s just.. “here’s a big moment, do something cool to meet it”.. with no plausible reason as to why or how they’d be able to. Like why does Rand even have a sword? He doesn’t use it. I would have sold that thing the first city I had to sleep in a barn. 😂 Lan is completely wasted on this show. Ugh.. It’s just frustrating loving a story and seeing it being ham fisted into whatever this is. 😢
The problem I have with perrin killing bornhald is that it is straight up murder. He flies into a vengeful rage and murders a guy who has no way of knowing wolves are people.
In the middle of a battle so... some mitigation there, unless every soldier is a murderer. And the whitecloaks he felled in the books was in a similar state of rage and defense of wolves
Thank you, Amy, for taking the time to break all of this down and being the constructive voice of many. I’m a show-only, but I was deeply disappointed with the latter half of the season, building up Rand and Nyneave and watching them fall off a cliff as far as character arcs. From what I’ve seen, it’s a bad adaptation and a mediocre standalone series. I don’t see myself continuing, even if it does improve. And I don’t think it’s reasonable to excuse the show’s failings as “it’ll get better after 3, 4, 5 seasons.” They had the opportunity to breathe life into a beloved IP, while improving on some things that wouldn’t work for the visual medium and they blew it. Your analysis are great to watch, though.
I hate how TV adaptations not only break book-universe rules, but break their own series-universe rules. Egwene collaring Renna is a really really weird situation because of the conflicting power dynamic they now have with each other, and the computer scientist in me foresees an instant deadlock situation, a mutual recursion, and both women falling to the ground, burned out and dead. Or... neither can do anything requiring executive functioning, and sit impassively, incapable of action. But by one rule that the series *did* take the trouble to actually spell out, Egwene should've been incapable of killing Renna; she was still leashed mentally to her. This really should've been a scene where someone else helps Egwene to get free. *Then* comes the character test for Egwene about how to treat Renna.
You'll get all sorts of justifications for why this could've happened. All of it headcanon. The fact is the show shattered the rules it had painstakingly established in prior episodes just for a meaningless 'girlboss' moment. Not to mention the massive implications for the Seanchan empire and the world.
What I like about the TV show is that the forsaken are much more complex characters. The books were pretty much cookie cutter. But having people play the roles with background makes it more enjoyable.
This is fair. It took me many years to appreciate that the Forsaken in the books are intentionally written like this, because they are narcissists and sociopaths with deluded grandiose ideas of themselves and not much more. They are realistic villains. I have met watered down versions of them in real life.
We've only really seen two haven't we? (unless I fast forwarded through others which is eminently possible). Ishamael/Ba'alzamon is not cookie cutter in the books IMO. He's an insane nihilist who just wants oblivion not dominion and is more than a little insane. Although Lanfear in the show was, probably, the highlight of the season, I prefer book Lanfear. The more manipulative approach (rather than her being so directly involved) works better for me narratively.
Wouldn’t Moghedian be significantly weaker than lanfear? Considering she’s on the level of Nyneve and lanfear is literally as strong as a channeled could be?
As has been established, the show doesn't care about this. But yes, she would have needed an angreal or some other assurance for this if following book logic.
In terms of using the One Power -- Moghedian is weaker than Lanfear. Moghedian could still probably take Lanfear out if she was of a mind to and caught Lanfear by surprise. I don't know if she would, though; the two of them broadly being on the same team.
Hey Amy. I appreciate your videos, and enjoyed this one. It's good to see the most positive critical take, or perhaps the most critical positive take, on the show laid out in such detail.
Finally a useful analysis! Thank you SO much for this. Show is not bad, but OMG it could be so much better if the show runners were even somewhat competent.
Thanks for your detailed review! I recently watched one of your Season 1 videos - The Plot of the Wheel of Time TV Show Doesn't Make Sense - and it answered a question I had long been pondering - who is the target audience for this show? If, as intended, the show is for fantasy genre fans with a zero to moderate familiarity with the source material, I would say they've somewhat succeeded. It is jarring and incoherent for those who have clear and specific expectations of the show based on the big picture and little detail of the books. Otherwise, some of Season 2 (particularly episode 8 as you point out - which currently has an IMDb rating of 9.2) has been an exciting watch, especially if you are looking more for flash and less for logic / consistency - and in this regard, perhaps it also appeals to non fantasy genre viewers. I don't yet have an answer to why choose to adapt source material if you are going to significantly deviate from it.
I don't think the show is internally consistent _even_ without knowing the books. Egwene is a glaring example from the very first episode of the first season.
The intended audience is the normies, it's always the normies. The thing is the best way to get the normals to keep watching is to stick to the source material. The showrunners don't know that.
@@darriuscole8544 maybe audiences for this kind of show have become content to watch collections of "cool scenes", Ooh-Aah at the right places, and generally leave their brains at the gate.
@@bidossessi Agreed. Amy points out something in this review which I fear the show is counting on - if you bombard (non-book) viewers with fast-moving, visually captivating, emotionally dramatic scenes, they may be less inclined to think about or critically evaluate the show's consistency,
@@amys0482 Better late than never! Boo, hoo, hoo! Poor Amy! Her commitment to artistic creation is ruled by the whims of a giant corporation's fickle algorithm rather than the sacrifice her fans make slogging through a giant corporation's mediocre content simply to appreciate her clever analyses of it. 🙂
@@amys0482 Just kidding! 🙂 You did say, though - if I'm not misremembering - that you question whether the effort is worth it if your visibility doesn't increase. (Yes, I watched, as I always do, to the very end. 🙂) Perhaps you should take inspiration from Nerdrotic, who labored for years in obscurity before one particularly misused franchise - I forget which one, exactly - put him on the road to nearly a million subscribers.
@@amys0482 That's actually crazy 🙃 Maybe timebox this task - no more than 2 hours to get and do the photos. They don't need to be perfect. I'm sure you'll get faster at it. Also, if it's a factor of your script length, then, hmm, be more blase about dropping some talking points 😇
21:49 I agree with you about the power of the a’dam. The book reader knows how absolutely incapacitating and compulsory these terangreal are and is key to understanding later scenes in the books.
Really loved your breakdown - great points! I didn't understand how Egwene was able to touch the a'dam if she intended to use it as a weapon against her sul'dam (Renna). Then she was able to harm Renna with the a'dam, despite us knowing Egwene should feel that pain twice over (as she is also Renna's damane). I thought perhaps the show was implying that Egwene was so strong that she simply withstood this pain, but I did not find it believable. Nynaeve and Elayne should have saved her and then the three of them (linked) should have stood against Ishamael. Egwene holding off Ishamael alone did not seem realistic. Side note though - I find it odd that you clearly read the books but find it odd that Rand is interested in multiple women. Didn't he end up with three girlfriends simultaneously at the end of the books?
To your last point, it would be odd at this point in the books, but Rand sleeping with either of them at all would be odd at this point. Rand's view of girlfriend and marriage in the books changed over time, but was never in doubt for the reader. To my mind there's a huge difference between the three girls he can't decide between and hates himself for it basically tell him it's going to be a polygamous relationship and he resigns himself to it and him just getting involved with people behind other partner's backs, and the one we have in the show isn't the more upright one.
The change to Hopper's death/the white cloaks vendetta against Perrin is WORSE in the show like everything else they changed. In the show Hopper was killed because he was random wolf all of the sudden attacking a person on the side of the white cloaks in the middle of a battle. It could be a Seanchan wolf! Kill it! Then 2 minutes later Perrin just shows up whacks the leader of the whitecloaks right in front everyone for no reason as they see it. It was all much more justified in the book where they are being threatened and Perrin reacts immediately.
Shield appeared on top of rubble still after Heroes disappeared. Shield could have been absorbing chanelling from Ishy to help Egwene hold. Is shield going to stay in show as replacement for Mat's foxhead medallion?
Thanks for the review! You've always been good at being positive but rightfully critical of the show as needed. I'd give this season a 6.5 overall, mainly because I have a hard time turning my WoT Book brain off, and I weigh the lore, magic, finale and Rand's portrayal as the main character more heavy than the rest of it. If the entire series would be adapted as accurately and as well as Nynaeve's accepted test and surrounding exposition, the season could've been an 8 easy.
I agree with you, the accepted test was fantastic, and was a good example of things being changed for tv but in a way that actually worked. Its too bad they don't care to adapt the rest of the story that well.
@@JayAshkevron Yeah that episode gave me hope for the series long term. Like, they CAN do this, here's proof! Now just do that at that level of care consistently for all of the characters, for the love of God, please.
Ugg the Rand/Turak scene. Even if it is has an homage to a book 3 scene. It is a TERRIBLE homage to that scene. Rafe said that book 3 scene was one which shows the reader the power that the Dragon Reborn wields. Errr....it is? He literally sword fights (albeit with flaming sword) those people in that scene. So we aren't getting a 'glimpse of the power the Dragon Reborn wields'. If any prowess is being demonstrated, it is his prowess with the sword.. So Rafe is paying homage to 2 scenes where Rand shows he has become an expert sword fighter.....by not having Rand sword fight. Brilliant! 🙄Thanks Rafe! A real homage for the fans there! And as you state, their 'fix' for this is so stupid. 'Adapting this scene is a problem because we haven't show Rand ever using the sword. So we can't do that scene like in the books. But we can just have him use the power expertly...which we have also never shown Rand being able to do yet.' Brilliant logic!!!! Would it have really been so hard to show a few scenes of Rand learning the sword when he should have been learning the sword?
30:11 the books give lots of evidence to Egwene‘s ability to withstand suffering, so that’s not so bad. However, you are perfectly correct in saying that the scene makes no sense logically. And this is a definite plot armor device to ensure a cathartic face off between the suldam and damane. How convenient.
Would Renna really have died so quickly? From what I understand, a person who's been strangled or suffocated will pass out, but will probably revive, eventually, if the breathing restriction is removed.
Sigh. Season 2 was a large step up from season 1, but it just moved it from poor and disappointing to disappointing. Sure, it's up to watchable level, but that's not where it could be. Fantasy shows with low internal logic and high on CW drama are a dime a dozen and usually peter out due to lack of audience commitment. In Wheel of Time they have a built in audience who stuck with a series for multiple decades and instead of trying to create a show around that dedicated fanbase they made generic CW fantasy yet again...
Was it really a step-up though? Season 2 had one good episode, several mediocre ones, at least two really bad ones and a finale that was more anti-climactic than a one-pump-chump. I don't know if that is a step up.
@@orion00 I’d say it was more entertaining, that’s my ADHD flashy lights brain. Watching Sanderson react to S2E8 was probably the best actual critique of the show. People will have to jump through hoops to answer the following questions.
Without Matt, why do you need Elayne and Nynaeve?
Egwene just needs a sword.
What is Rand’s arc in this season?
How does Rand’s philosophy beat Ishy’s philosophy? (What is Rand’s philosophy/ideals in the show?)
Cool scenes and neat lines are used in place of character arcs instead of supporting them. It’s better in costuming. We got some pretty good acting range from several characters.
The Dragon was cool! (Don’t ask questions I have no answers to the sense it made). I can enjoy that, but I’m not going to love it.
@@chrisf2636 It's great that you can see silver linings there. I'm just salty that it failed in all categories for me.
The set designs and costumes were the most disappointing. I'm comparing it to the Witcher series and I can't pin point what it is but the Witcher (or Game of Thrones) designs felt immersive while Wheel of Time makes me think of people cosplaying. Does that make any sense?
@@orion00 absolutely. They were the cosplayers with more money in S2. That is the silver lining. I will not recommend the show to my friends co-workers. It’d be like asking them to be excited about watching power Rangers. Though that storyline might be more coherent.
@@orion00 also I have to accept what is. It isn’t the Wheel of Time in world, scope metaphysics. I’m trying to adopt a bit more class like Sanderson does. Being filled with rage over the steaming pile in front of me doesn’t help. Instead of salty I’m trying be critical without it being something I loved with the core ripped out walking around with parts of the skin left. Sorry haven’t managed that full classy bit.
I thought it was incredibly stupid to spend all that time setting up Nyneave and Elayne's rescue attempt of Egwene just to pull the rug out from under them so Egwene can girlboss her way out of her own situation. It really feels like they're doing things for book readers without understanding why the things from the books work. "Here are your little scenes from the books, but now they don't really matter."
Also, it strains believability that the Whitecloaks are really offended by slavery. These are the same people who chopped off an Aes Sedai's hands and burned her at the stake in season 1. And now they somehow know about Seanchan slavery(of channellers) and are super offended by it? They attack the Seanchan in the books because they think it's Aes Sedai blowing up Falme. This stuff makes no sense. The show is doing things just to do them.
The Whitecloaks actually felt like the good guys in this episode. Dain Bornhald is now a sympathetic character. Way to go show.
@@bigjonS4my thoughts as well. Geofram was just protecting a fellow whitecloak getting attacked by a random wolf...who WOULDN'T axe it? Perrin was a bit unreasonable there, Dain has every right to hate/hunt him.
I disagree with you 100 % ! Whitcloak's ideology is far extreme left, they are a self-righteous cult! they also believe that one power comes from the Dark One, hence same as it was believed in the medieval ages, spellcasting has to be evil and connected to the Dark One! In that case, Aes Sedai are witches, dark friends, and not human as they are concerned! So your analogy does not apply! I thought Whitecloaks using the derogatory word witch for Aes Sedai in the books and the show would give you a clue lol
I actually think Damane's storyline was way better in the Show for Egwene than it was in the book, it works better for who she is as a character and who she is to become!
Egwene's character was never written even in the book as a Demzel in distress!
and of course, you will have her friends trying to free her even if you don't intend to have them manage it, otherwise, what would that be saying about her friends! they don't care?
plus the plotline serves to keep the audience from suspecting she will free herself!
Also is setting up a saving party that does not save anyone not the actual plot in several cases in the book too, in the book we also have characters saving themselves before the saving party arrives ??? well, you read it apparently, so remember Tear??? I want to say hypocrite much lol?
Give credit when due! there are so many things done better than in the books, for example The whole idea in the books that all Forsaken, the most powerful channelers of that age just happened to be there with a Dark one waiting to be trapped like sitting ducks was just silly! Particularly because Dark one exists outside our dimension ... The show hunting them one by one and trapping them into individual seals made much more sense! I love it !
I think some people are so set in their bias that they refuse to see the thing the show did better even with these extreme time constraints per episode they have, which is the major issue for me, with so many key characters 8 episode is just not enough to give each of them enough focus ... the worst thing about the show are not changes but the supersonic pacing and dialogs that are written as per order that every line needs to be delivered in as little word as possible, I actually love some of changes ... changes make suspense and keeps me on my toes not knowing and guessing!
It’s like they didn’t finish the book.
The Whitevloaks hate the slavery of the Falmen people, Ingtar, etc. Not the damane.
Good to see you recognise that the really want Egwene to be the Dragon. if this makes it to the last battle, mark my word, Egwene will be in the Pit of Doom saving the day.
100% ... Think Rafe knows Egwene is supposed to sacrifice herself fighting the Last Battle? LMAO
she did in the books anyway. Nothing groudbreaking if they do the same in the show
@@sp4rk1 Egwene went into the Shayol Gul in the books to save the day? In the books?
@@robinirie98 No. She burns herself out like Lews Therin did to create Dragonmount. Two women do go with Rand though.
@@andrewfrank7222 Yes. The women went and supported Rand. There is no way this show will have Egwene just standing there funneling saidar to Rand. It will be a big change with her confronting the DO. Mark my word
Making Egwene this powerhouse who can get through anything by pure determination is such a disservice to her character. In season 1 we learned that she cured herself of breakbone fever. In the books, it was Nynaeve who healed her. I think that was the first time she healed someone with the Power. Show Nynaeve goes on to say that Egewene is unbreakable. One thing I liked about Egewene, as I did with all the Emond's Fielders, is that she starts of as an inexperienced country person who is thrown into a world she doesn't understand and feels lost in. Then, through her various experiences, grows to be someone who is unbreakable. Having her start of this way limits her growth as a character.
Now Egwene is freeing herself in a way that further breaks the lore of the books, and we're supposed to believe that she can resist the a'dam through sheer willpower. I'd prefer if she were just rescued by Nynaeve and Elayne. After all, if the Dragon Reborn has to be rescued from time to time, why not Egwene?
Lanfear praying to the Light was beyond dumb, if there was a Dark One Lanfear would now be dead.
They are doing the 5 headed Dragon, Rand is going to be walking behind Egwene, Moiraine, Lanfear or whoever holds his leash like a good little puppy for the whole show.
Hints are that this is Mat's weapon and he now has his memories. No reason for him (or indeed Rand) to go to the Aiel waste in the show.
He kinda does that anyway.
I genuinely do not think there will be a "dark one". I think they are going to keep this as the evil humans doing everything.
The show made me root for Lanfear and she was the coolest character. Your reviews made me buy the books and I have started reading first book.
You will be amazed by the books. The show doesn't raise up at all to our (fans) expectations. What a waste of potential...
@@Flo-bn6ek Common, be objective !!! 75% of people give up on books halfway through before ever reaching the ending, yes Jordan is a master in world-building, but when it comes to writing dialogs, and romances, not at all .... and constant bickering and women slagging of men gets on people's nerves, Some characters are so annoying in first 2 books that most readers can't stand them and give up ... can you find a single event in the book where those 3 are together without bickering and Nyneave not pulling her hair and chewing on her lip? at least In the show no character is as annoying and for that they have my credit! huh, that's for another conversation...
then indecisive plotlines, abandoned plotlines, boring long descriptions, particularly Jordan's obsession of long descriptions of clothing, embroidery, and lace, then it comes to a slog when for an entire book Aes Sedais are sitting in a little village scratching their arses doing nothing.... for some it was a horror show of writing! Constantly indecisive in writing styles ....
Example of a bad writing: a princess meets a peasant in her garden, and apparently she is obsessed and wants to marry him without knowing anything about him...
then in the next Occsion Elayne is with Nyneave and Egwene and suddenly for no reason out of the blue, she brings Rand whom she does not know at all, and only met once for 5 minutes, and says "Rand would never do that! "WTF!!!! if you want to criticize there is a lot in the book we can focus on! lol
Whilst I agree with the analogy of this video in most cases, she fails to acknowledge all the things that the show has done better and gives credit when due! and that is not fair!
For example, the depth of Liandrin's character is better, The whole idea that Forsaken just happened to be there, the most powerful channelers of age apparently were being sat like ducks just waiting to be trapped there with a Dark one ... just silly! The show hunting them one by one and trapping them into individual seals made much more sense!
then Suldam being weak in power in the show Is a much better and simpler as well as logical idea than what was done in a book that Suldam are people who can be trained to channel... if that was the case why not just then train everyone and problem solved ... the halls of white Tower will be filled with novices again .... Jordan obviously did not know what to do with some plotlines and some ideas he obviously did not think through, there was lots of inconsistency through entire series in the books as well ... but some book readers just take it for granted without processing! I love the books for the amazing world-building, lore and histories, and imaginative universe he created, but I will never think of them as perfect or a writing masterpiece... Actually far from that, particularly when it comes to writing style, dialog writing, character writing, and romance writing are mediocre at best!
For me the show's biggest issue is pacing because they have only 8 episodes per season and so many key characters that need attention, all plotlines feel rushed racing at supersonic speed, it feels as if writers have been given the order to make every dialog delivered in as few words as possible to make the scene shorter and manage to fit into the episode's time constrain! All I really want is for them to slow down the pace and relax, and for all characters to have time to sit down and start bonding with each other as well as with the audience, because some characters they are killing off, we did not get enough time with them to care about it... they need more episodes and I will like the show much more ...
@@Berndrthe "75%" who give up on the books are not fans. Fans are the people who finished the story and loved it warts and all. I think this is the same issue Rafe has, he didn't like the books and he thinks he can "fix" them. This is not the wheel of time. The Wheel of Time was written by Robert Jordan, and he wrote it as he saw fit to do so(his right as the author), and his fans love it as it is.
@@annendungu9153 I disagree, people can be fun and still have enough objectivity to accept all the flawed writing ... I myself have read the entire series 3 times and still have issues with it ... a lot! Some things simply make no sense and are bad no matter how much you love the other aspects of the book, in my case I love the Lore, history, and world-building can't get enough of it ... but the character dialog made me cringe every time... particularly romance... Elayne's and Fails are great examples of bad writing!
@@Berndr You are making my point for me. You have finished the books and regardless of the issues you had with it you enjoyed it. So yes, you are a fan. I don't think any fan would hate this show if the things Rafe fixed was the Rand and Elayne love story or cringe dialogue. But Rafe "fixed" the magic system, the world building, the characters and even the basic premise of the dragon. So no, this is not the wheel of time.
My observation for the show is this:
Its biggest defenders consistently have to divorce it from the books (conceding the point of its critics)
They also consistently talk about the show "improving" despite rarely acknowledging issues as they occur.
They also talk about FUTURE episodes fixing problems.
I get that some prefer to hunt for silver linings, and it IS fair to talk about the positives...
But I think WAY too many free passes are given to Amazon and Rafe when they have CLEARLY made poor decisions, by design and NOT because of circumstances or constraints.
It is called gaslighting.
Some people choose to down the copium rather than face reality. It's likely to be the only live action version we'll ever get so some book series lovers feel conflicted. Personally, I'd rather they did a Castlevania style animated version and stick to the story. There's plenty of fluff to cut out without having to radically change characters, plotlines and chronology. RJ did like his long, repeated descriptions. Did you know Lamgwin is bulky with heavy lidded eyes? yes, RJ, you already told me a thousand times etc.
Amazon has plenty of good shows so I think mostly Rafe
The biggest issue I have are not on the changes (although some can be definitively criticized) but the show not following its own show created logic (the A’dam is one but the Dagger is a more case in point example. Nobody knows how the dagger works, and twice they have retconned that in successive season finales)
@@denglongfist4270
Perhaps.
Inconsistency is the biggest problem... but I think SOME of the changes are just explicitly and unequivocally for the worse.
And Amazon DOES have good shows.
But is ALSO has duds. And I think the inconsistent quality has been very much a corporate problem. Effectively I suspect some executives of being more interested in personal advancement and access than in the quality they're producing (they've paid several creators millions per year for producing... nothing. And stated that they worried about losing influence within the industry and therefore losing talent to competitors. So, it's REALLY not without logic. If they had picked grafters instead of grifters it would probably have paid off :P
And aye bigjon, considering JUST how descriptive RJ was and how that is an instruction manual for a visual medium... I honestly don't think they'd have to cut as much as people seem convinced.
Several huge plots can be removed without much fan reaction (most of Perrin after the battle of Two Rivers, half of the "runaway novices" stuff bc you don't really need to do it twice, the carnival stuff, Toman Head, a lot of the whitecloak stuff... I could go on You're probably dropping two entire books worth of content with stuff most hardcore fans still think of as filler :P)
The first three books are pretty much required as foundation though, so a LITTLE more difficult to cut down.
It's so obvious at this point that they wanted a show about the Aes Sedai, and that's what they want to focus on. Which makes me wonder why they didn't just adapt New Spring at this point. The Dragon Reborn has been an after thought for 2 seasons, nobody fears him at all, prophecies are barely there, they keep on pushing how the bad guys care about all 5 the same way. And while in general i don't mind changes in adaptations, the ones done till now hasn't worked at all for me. They feel random and not well thought out at all.
Screentime spent on Elayne and Nynaeve finding a way to free Egwene, an Aes Sedai even got collared to protect them and her warder got killed, and then...nothing. They just messed up completely how the a'dam works just to have Egwene free herself, while Elayne got hit by an arrow that Nynaeve, a Wisdom from the Two Rivers, didn't even know how to pull out. Rand found a way to get to Logain and had Errol teach him the sword (off screen but whatever), and yet he didn't show off anything if not those 2 seconds he took to take out Turak and his men. There was zero payoff to what they showed through the season. Why are people even cheering for him? They didn't see anything of what happened on the tower, the Whitecloaks are the ones who did most of the work in their eyes. He didn't even proclaim himself, it was Moiraine who did it (btw yeah, she did break the oaths), he feels more like a False Dragon right now (there were already people who didn't think he was the real one at the end of the first season, after this second finale some are sure it's actually Egwene and he is a red herring).
I mean its true, he's literally a false Dragon set up by an Aes Sedai. This idea or concept is prevalent in the books and the show runner apparently thought that meant thats how it should be. If he was really the Dragon he would have proclaimed himself.
Judging by how quick the show people were to cry racism when the reactions to the cast questioned why a village canonically established as have zero outside influence in the breeding pool had such a multi-racial population, I would say that they are super-racist themselves, since they keep taking away Nynaeve's accomplishments and giving them to lighter-skinned women. And they cast black men to play a pair of irredeemable scumbag rapists. And a couple of "gentle giants" who lost a bunch of IQ points in their transition to the screen. Judging by what an asshole Elyas is, and how utterly stupid Ryma and her warder are, these writers really don't like black people. Note as well how much more screen time and how many more lines original warder Maksim gets, compared to his black book counterpart, Ihvon.
The centuries of enslavement and mind rape that is the a-dam becomes way less meaningful when you can just pull yourself up by the bootstraps and not be a damane. Moiraine can apparently now defeat whole fleets of channelers and throw fire dragons. What. And what did Uno ever do to be a hero of the horn. These are supposed to be some of the most significant people from the ages and Uno is a regular soldier. Mat's zero to hero moment is forgiven because of the recasting but that was still jarring.
I wouldn't say that Egwene just pulled herself up by her bootstraps... just putting the a'dam on Renna wasn't enough - she also had to be able to take herself to almost death in order to get Renna to remove her a'dam. I thought it was a pretty powerful character building moment tbh that foreshadows more moments where Egwene has to tolerate pain.
Also, it wasn't Uno's first life.
"foreshadows more moments where Egwene has to tolerate pain" it doesn't foreshadow them, it ruins the impact they would've otherwise had and the gradual buildup of her strenght of character and will. It's a detriment that probably comes from that tv series writing mindset of "we don't know if we'll get enough seasons to get to that moment so let's put unnecessarily and undeservedly epic moments early on and make every season feel like it could be a satisfying finale"@@TevitolMUN
@@TevitolMUN I don't think the show really got across that Egwene was taken to the point of death during this confrontation. After establishing that anything she did to Renna should have hurt Egwene twice as much, this should have been a scene where choking Renna to the point of nearly passing out should have had Egwene curled up on the floor gasping for air by the end of it (if Egwene didn't pass out first). Instead she just stands there and wills her way through it. But this show has repeatedly established rules and then broken them with little to no consequence.
@@ethanhandel1001 Just a punch to Renna in a previous episode took her out, but she choked her to death in the finale and she was totally fine? Rules are just completely out of the window in the show, even the ones they make themselves.
@@TevitolMUN That is "the explanation" but I think most people who watched the show did not see Egwene in much distress. It just seemed she somehow girl bossed her way through it.
You know it’s bad when you watch the “previously on the Wheel of Time…” sequence and say, “Wait, what?” after already having seen the entire season.
I think there are several things about the production that is good or even great, but the writing is atrocious and can not stand any level of scrutiny before falling apart. I don't know if it is because they didn't have the time or because the writers lack the skill and experience, but I don't think the series has the potential to get any better without new writers. And that is very unlikely to happen.
i could have written some of the scenes more consistent in a few hours, like e.g. the attack on the gate.
It is a void of talent and determination to create some immersive world, that is consitent in itself and to basic human logic.
This is true. I dont see how critical reviews such as are collected on rotten tomatoes from supposedly seasoned critics manage their way past that. They have a right to their opinion but I am confused by the lack of concern for the writing issues from critics.
Oh, in the bonus material on Amazon for this season Rafe was quite proud of himself that he made Rand and Moiraine's storylines parallel in that both characters pushed the ones they loved away, thinking they had to do it their own way, only to find in the end that they need those people in their lives to succeed. So clever of him! AVENGERS ASSEMBLE!!!
I guess that you could argue that, just like at Taren Ferry, Moiraine wasn't breaking the Three Oaths, but merely destroying the Seanchan boats, not killing the people, silly! They could've save themselves, I'm sure!
Rand holding the blade of his sword as he attacked Ishamael was the only way to place the Heron Mark on his palm, because in this show the Heron Mark is on the blade instead of the hilt of the sword, unlike in the books. Even though they conveniently place a Heron Mark on the hilt for the scene with Turak, because how else would Turak see it was a Heron Marked blade. Incidentally, they made this big deal of branding the Heron Mark onto Rand's palm, but just like the Horn of Valere, the prophecy of him being marked twice and twice again, has not been presented. Grr.
All of this
Except the books were quite specific that even possibly causing damage to a boat was in violation of the Three Oaths, in Crossroads of Twilight. Of course, this is the same series that thought it necessary to have Oath-Bound Moiraine swear an additional Oath of obedience, instead of just swearing an ordinary oath that the First Oath would have bound her to keep anyway...
Just in case you haven't heard, according to brandon sanderson, the dagger on a stick is not the precursor to the aeshandari, its the show's version of the aeshandari.... YAY
I feel bad for Nynaeve. She's supposed to be a super healer and the only one (non rand) that could stand up to the weakest foresaken. Totally sidestepped by Elayne this episode.
Nynaeve "got her girlboss moment" when she tortured the sul'dam.
Elayne "had" to have one, too... and ditto for all the rest, of course.
None of them are trained yet tho. The books (well, unlike the show, but hey) make it VERY clear that there's a massive distinction between raw power and training, including, critically, knowledge of (and ability to quickly learn) weaves. In the show's defense, Nyneave sure as shit doesn't know HOW to channel a standard healing weave at this point (due to spending her entire time at the tower intentionally avoiding any kind of instruction in the one power - and the fact that show aes sedai apparently don't give novices any kind of real instruction whatsoever which is just bizarre); whereas Elayne probably does. Nyneave also has a channeling block (which the show is finally acknowledging / portraying correctly), and NOT being able to do the one thing that she SHOULD be good at is pretty much the crux of her character + internal conflict in the first half of the series.
S1 did a really bad job of portraying this b/c Nyneave should ONLY be capable of channeling when she's *angry*, NOT when she's just really, really desperate or whatever.
The show's portrayal of channeling in general is pretty terrible though, b/c it really does not at all show that channeling IS very technical *and science driven*, not just wave your hands / chant a spell and a fireball appears, like in D&D or whatever. If nothing else the show's portrayal and use of channeling SHOULD (and apparently does) tick off Sanderson, b/c WOT (and all of Sanderson's works) has by far one of the most technical and hard-magic systems out there. Albeit hand-waved somewhat when rand + other characters just do things (ie. simple to very complicated weaves) off of instinct or whatever.
Anyways, it's fairly tragic that this show was clearly made by people who clearly don't have any clear idea of how channeling should actually look, or work, since this was clearly just left up to the VFX studio and has had some mild improvements / iterations over time.
At any rate ANY trained channeler should completely body the main cast, since none of Egwene / Nyneave / Rand / Elayne have been shown to know how to counter shields and other weaves at this point. And apparently the Aes Sedai in this age don't know what a tied off or inverted weave is lmao.
@@joem5037 Yes... and they can't even tell the difference between being shielded and being stilled.
Stupid show-runner, wasting all that screen time on family drama crap.
Do the 'writers' collaborate at all? it seems that some episode narratives undermine or contradict others. I mean, we have buildup that Nynaeve and Elayne are in Falme to rescue Egwene, as in the books. They acquire a Sul'dam disguise, as in the books. This is then totally irrelevant as Egwene frees herself and then holds off Ishamael for good measure. I guess they are not bothering with power levels in the show.
They have transformed one of fantasies best hard magic systems into a soft magic system that just does whatever the current writer wants it to. Its dumb.
I hated that the Aes Sedai break their oaths for drama over and over. That Egwaine frees herself with confusing methods. How did she not die when she was still collared? I feel like so much was done for drama. I especially hate that so many channels don't see anything wrong. And so many think those of us that didn't like the show think we don't understand how television works. How not only do things need to be changed due to the medium as well as time and number of book characters but also that we don't understand how episodes have a pattern that needs to be followed so the story must be organized within each episode.
I think a good writing team would be able to plot out the story so it could be contained within episodes. And that lore and world building can be comprehensive in a tv show. It has been so fuzzy in the show. Like they don't want to commit to anything.
I very much appreciate Amy for being able to watch the show and point out the problems. I want better from the writers and show runners. And I want better from the reviewers.
Before the show ever came out Nae Blis did a breakdown of how one might adapt the books into a 8 season format. It was pretty spot on. Now he's one of the biggest apologizers imaginable. Daniel Greene is slightly little better, but no. You'd watch these channels and think, hmmm, this actually might be a halfway decent show on its own merits! It's not like I'm suddenly so dumb I forgot how to watch TV correctly.
Not only do these reviewers think we know nothing about how television works, but they keep making the same straw man argument we can't expect to have a 1 for 1 adaptation of the books. I have yet to see a critic of the show say that they wanted a 1 for 1 adaptation. We know that it's not possible! We just want an adaptation that is true to the themes, characters, and major plot points of the books.
I don't like comparing The Wheel of Time to Game of Thrones, but the early seasons stuck closely to the source material, and what changes they made usually enhanced the story and did not go against the characters, themes, or lore.
The worst part is that when you point out the absurdity of Egwene freeing herself based on the rules that the writers themselves developed, they come up with absurd explanations with no evidence all from any of the events in the show. Where did that come from?
They're like the proverbial abused spouse (or child) who always makes excuses for the reason he/she deserved the abuse.
@@Guairedarksbane I too make the comparison because GoT did do a faithful adaptation during the early seasons. Maybe even a lot of the last ones though it became clear when they began with "subverting expectations," plot armor, and logic and consistency thrown away for their big moments. Something I feel that WoT started with. We have seen them take an IP and do a good job at adaption so we know it can be done. And us book readers are very aware of the changes GoT did and we were mostly ok with it. I personally wanted the same with WoT.
Thank you for your excellent analysis videos, and pardon me not commenting on them earlier. I think they are great. I especially liked that your thumbnail featured the question of Moiraine breaking the 3rd Oath, since this was the thing that bothered me most of the whole season, and was an unfortunate end to the whole unfortunate Moiraine storyline.
One of your earlier videos highlighted the secret of how I enjoy watching the show: Don't think too much; just watch. But, eventually I think...and dissect the problems...which I ALSO enjoy. So I really appreciate your videos.
This is at least their 2nd or 3rd “Let’s have Luke attempt to murder one of his students” moments. (He wouldn‘t kill Vader because there was good in him). Completely against character and world.
Though after E7 where Moraine has to be commanded 3 times to follow her oath to obey, they kinda set up that someone has to “call” them on the oaths for them to work.
I enjoy your balanced takes.
Faithful adaptations have been enormously successful cultural cornerstones: LotR moves, Harry Potter, Game of Thrones (before they ran out of books). As a book reader, it's hard for me to understand why they have chosen the route of inconsistent worldbuilding and often illogical storytelling instead of choosing to do a more direct adaptation.
The most obvious reason is that they want flexibility - the flexibility to make whatever scenes they need to fulfill whatever objectives they have, whether corporate or dramatic. Some of those objectives are obvious (like increasing Moiraine's role for Rosamund Pike), others not so obvious. I mean, doesn't it seem like they are trying to attract non-fantasy-viewing older women by inserting so many of the Aes Sedai/Warder scenes that are just talking? Or is the issue that they are contractually required to give Daniel Henney a significant storyline?
I don't watch full episodes - I just fast forward to the fights with the One Power mostly or to watch Natasha O'Keefe, so I did watch most of this episode. This episode was entertaining - stuff did happen - some of it actually from the books! And they actually got me excited for Moghedien (although, as you mentioned, she has a very different personality than in the books.)
I will quibble with one of your takes: I thought the explanation about the sul'dam just being really weak channelers was okay for the purpose of the TV adaptation. They are avoiding the "spark v teachable" distinction. Instead they are drawing a distinction between weak channelers (Lady Amalisa/sul'dam) and strong channelers (Aes Sedai/Damane). But without more context it's not very interesting. They just needed Egwene to attend one lecture in the White Tower where they said something like "1 in 5000 can channel, only 1 in 3 of those could become Aes Sedai" - then the viewer knows Renna and the sul'dam are in that 2/3 out (or whatever). Again, they just refuse to flesh things out to make it more interesting.
This story fails not because of some real world adaptive necessary things, but because they are messing with the actual story in the books. Like, I have no problem with expanding Lan and Morraine's role. Pike is the lead and maybe you need that in the TV show where maybe having her name attached to it got it made in the first place. Little things like we recognize some of the "heroes" when Mat blows the horn, because having someone there we know makes better TV than a bunch of people we never saw? That is fine. But when you are fundamentally changing the entire main plot, that is a problem.
It would be like in Harry Potter, Herminie being the bad ass magic user the whole time and even fighting Voldemort, and carting Harry off to some side getting beat all the time but they call him the chosen one. It would make no sense and destroy the entire point of the story, but that is precisely what they are doing here.
@@bobross1829 I don't think it would be a good idea to try to adapt the books too faithfully, because the books aren't that good. Just like the show, they have a cool story, but it's poorly developed and there's a lot of stuff that doesn't make any sense and it seems like it's that way because the writer couldn't write better. The problem with the show is that it doesn't have enough time. Just 8 episodes is not enough. But the show made me like the characters enough to keep reading the books, even though I don't like they there.
@@DiegoFernandesLima I do admit that there are people that do not like the books either and really all "high fantasy". The critic set thinks it is all dumb and silly.
The stupid cavallerie charge of a wall just to dismount, was also done in the finale of the last season, where apperently the great skill of the Shinaran cavallerie was to transport them some meters to their wall in Tarwins Gap. Also the back and forth with horses in the ways: They seem not to know what to do with them.
I think that you see a lot of high score reviews on TH-cam for this reason:
Many of the channels reviewing this show on TH-cam are channels where the wheel of time is over 60% of their content. Such channels can't afford to be vicious towards anything wheel of time related. The reason is they know they might turn people away from the wheel of time if they did, and people turned away from the wheel of time would be very unlikely to watch a TH-cam channel focused almost exclusively on it.
Season 2 did not tank making high score reviews possible. That of course wasn't what happened last season. I'd say the Wheel Of Time team had a successful season 2.
@@ArthurSullivan-cq4uw Imo it's a mixed bag. The nielsen numbers for wot season 2 aren't that good. There's almost 0 trending around the shows. Even the youtube videos don't get enough views to call the show successful. The show is too niche to be a success and I think the writings and quality are a part of it. For example the witcher s 1( which imo was bad) is more successful than wot season 1 or 2
Imagine tying yourself to trash tv over one of the greatest fantasy series around..
Oh come on, they are not all sellouts. I am a book fan and I find all of the above mentioned stuff, aka the bad writing, annoying, but i still enjoyed the show, the visuals, the acting. But most of all: A reintroduction of surprise and wonder to the material. Some changes were nice, like Liandrin. Most were bad. But still, I love reengaging with WoT and seeing non-book readers and readers. react.
I also forgave the books a lot of stupid stuff, like the "Slayer"-villan, the Green man, the "sniffer", the weird timeline (of 2 years), Egwene being a novice for 2 months and an Accepted for 3 days but knowing the Tower like the back of her hand, etc.
Given the plotline deviated from the books already, here's what I'd have liked to see with the Nynaeve/Elayne piece: Nynaeve fails to channel to heal Elayne's leg and they are in more pressing danger of being caught. In desperation, Nynaeve gives Elayne the adam to put on her so Elayne can force Nynaeve to channel and heal Elayne's leg and later heal Rand. That gives Nynaeve something to do and also explains Elayne's untrained ability to heal a wound. Plus, after the humiliation of having to wear the collar, Nynaeve's got some serious motivation to get past her block in season 3.
That's better than what we saw in the episode. Unfortunately they needed Nynaeve to be blocked to set her arc up for next season. That self-imposed constraint made for cumbersome choices in my opinion. The middle part of the Nynaeve/Elayne piece is my only real gripe with this episode.
It is Ygwaine who wears the collar in the books, Nynaeve gets very angry, gets around her block and is able to open the collar and free her.
@@christianefiorito3204 Sure, but they cut the whole rescue for whatever reason, so now they need something else to do.
I genuinely love this idea. Would have been so impactful.
Yes, that would have been much better
I took Geofram's comment about having something the enemy doesn't was more meant to be along the lines of "The Light is on our side," as opposed to having super powerful incensors that produce ridiculous amounts of sound-masking incense specifically. Though, Dain later does remark "it's working" after the catapult scene, so who even knows.
I feel like this could be easily defeated by just blowing the fog away with air. Then again a breach at the gate could easily be defeated by lowering the portcullis
Great break down, Amy.
I had an issue with Lan taking out 20 or so elite guards on the beach - then it took the summoned heroes and Matt to take out twice that number??? Huh?
🤣
What were they even doing there? Why did they only have one arrow? etc.
It helped that they ran at him one at a time. Very courteous!
Right now I'm just happy to see Lan doing anything useful. They messed up his character so badly!
oh focusing on Lan and NOT on the clearly channeling woman behind her by spreading out to get around Lan is beyound stupid. Even the archer on top of the hill shoots at him instead on Moraine's back. "dumbception" at its finest ( the plot device that only by adversaries behaving equally dumb in a situation when protagonists/antagonist are doing something dumb, the latters action is not botched )
One of the greatest weaknesses of damane is that they cant link.... also they typically cant split flows and do some of the fancier stuff ae sedai can do. However at war they are superior. As an aside if your curious the swell media does some videos where she talks frankly about how her channel grew and how she handles it. Might be worth a peak
They almost only learn battle weaves. But as individual channelers they are just as proficient if trained in those weaves, tho we can presume Seanchan has access to a different set of weaves than the Tower channelers.
There is a battle in which the Seanchan Damane’s inability to link results in them being unable to stop a full circle.
The three oaths are the same, they made a big point early on in season one of pointing that out to book fans. They then this season made a big point of pointing out the oaths were not breakable. This of course means show Moiraine is a dark friend. As she clearly violates the oath against killing with the one power. There have been show defenders pretending that since the Seanchan were attacking Rand that made it ok. Which is wrong on multiple levels. You can attack Rand and not be a dark friend and even if they attacked Rand that did not let Aes Sedai in the books use the one power to kill. There are multiple instances of Aes Sedai in the books having to take themselves and their warders down into combat in fights between the dragons armies and other peoples armies in order to be in danger enough to use the one power as a weapon. This scene in the show is a clear an obvious violation of the three oaths. She and Lan even talk about it right before she does it, with Moiraine telling Rand she doesn't care if there are innocent people on the boats she would let a thousand innocents die to protect Rand. Which its perfectly fine for her to feel that way, she just can't like literally can't use the one power to do what she then did. She knows there are people on those ships who aren't dark friends, but she slaughters them all anyway. If she is bound by the oaths she can't do what she did. Its not about want or not want or being dedicated to the dragons cause. She can't. But they needed to give Rosmund Pike a cool scene at the end to justify spending all that money on her so here we are.
This actually brings up one of my biggest complaints about the show. They have taken one of the best hard magic systems in fantasy and turned it into the prime example of why soft magic systems are garbage. Why you should never relay on Dues Ex Machina to get your characters out of problems because ultimately its super boring to watch them ignore the rules again and again. They set up the rules and then ignore them and this confuses not only book readers who at least understand the rules they are breaking, but also non book readers who only have the shows own set of rules to go by. We see this in Rand's story where it took multiple women to shield Logain but only one ever to shield Rand. He's learned nothing then all of a sudden hes killing a dozen armed men and sparing one in the process which is way more complicated then just like hurling fire of something that would have made sense. We see it in Egwene's story where clearly, by the shows own set of rules, she should not have been able to pick up the A'dam nor should she have been able to collar Renna. I have seen show defenders pretending that since the collar isn't a weapon she could pick it up, but a water pitcher is also not a weapon, its the intent behind picking the item up that causes the pain. So thats a really dumb argument. They just decided Egwene can't ever be rescued even by other women. Period. So they broke their own rules and the story suffered for it. Not only is Moiraine a dark friend but she shouldn't even have been able to do what she did, shes not strong enough. Like the Dragon or Ishmael, or maybe Lanfear could have done what she did, but not Moiraine. But again they paid Rosmund Pike so here we are.
Also apparently male channelers aren't really that big of a threat because all you have to do is link some female channelers together and have them weave a shield in a general direction and *POOF* they are shielded. Even from miles away, even when you can't see them. Just shield in a general direction and hope for the best apparently works. This is just stupid story telling. Just lazy stupid story telling.
That oath against killing is not absolute. It has an exception for darkfriends and and for shadowspawn. The oath rod does not know who is a shadowfriend, so its power depends on the beliefs of the Aes Sedai. Morraine could kill as many Seanchan as she likes so long as she has convinced herself that they are Darkfriends, which might not be hard to do if she knows they are working for Ishamael.
@@magister343 No, the oath against using the one power as a weapon is absolute, with three exceptions. One to defend her life or her warders life, two to defend another sister, and three against dark spawn and dark friends. Moiraine does not know the WHO IS ON THE BOATS. She literally discusses with Lan moments before that she "thinks they are shielding Rand." Why? Because reasons thats why. She is just guessing. She even goes so far as to say she will lets thousands of innocents die to save Rand. Which is cool and all but doesn't absolve her of her oath. She has no idea who the people on the boats are, and only a small suspicion of who the channelers are shielding. For all she knows the channelers on the boats could BE Aes Sedai shielding Ishmael. She doesn't know. Which is exactly why she couldn't do what she did. She only has the idea in her head that they might be bad because a literal forsaken told her to do what needed to be done whatever that means. Even if she thought that the channelers on the ONE boat were shielding Rand and somehow came to the conclusion they must be dark friends. She might then be able to destroy that ship but certainly not every fucking ship in the harbor. I mean give me a break man. The oaths mean NOTHING if an Aes Sedai can just decide to murder thousands of people because she got a wild hair. Get real.
Don’t forget that Siuan is also a Darkfriend, as she used the power as a weapon against Lan.
@@aaronc4899 Holy cow I did forget about that. Wait I will have to re-watch that scene, did he put his hand on his sword like he was going to stop her from interfering with Moiraine in that scene....I mean regardless she wouldn't have seriously thought he would harm her in any real way so I guess that wouldn't matter. Its true though in the books the Aes Sedai often used weaves of air to capture or hold people but never attacked them like that....that is another clear violation of the oaths and I didn't even catch it. That scene is so weird and out of character for everyone involved that that part didn't even register.
@@JayAshkevron She threw him into a wall so hard that he lost consciousness. That is potentially lethal damage, and certainly falls under the category “as a weapon”. Yes, he was running towards her in order to intercede, but that does not mean he was on his way to try to kill her. She also knows he is a loyal subject to Tar Valon, so she has no reason to fear for her life. As you mentioned, the Aes Sedai don’t have to resort to extreme force in order to manage a nuisance - their powerful telekinesis allows them to levitate people without hurting them.
Rafe Judkins needs to let someone else handle his battles. The cavalry charge right into a wall and then magically appear dismounted inside. That's only a fractional step up from the season 1 cavalry charging at the back of their own wall. I'm not opposed to an epic slow-mo charge sequence, but jeez, it has to be at some opponents, you can't have horses run at a wall. And then there was 0 real spatial logic to follow inside the city, main characters just ambled along to the most important tower, yet innocents couldn't escape the fighting? And the damane were used terribly, all placed in 1 easily attacked location to slowly shoot piddly bolts of fire. And not to mention somehow secretly getting those giant catapults up and in to range within minutes...The choreography and effects were a large step up from season 1 thankfully, but the logic is still not there.
...Really, why did they not just shoot it like from the books (if I'm remembering this right): Have the Children of the Light do their slo-mo charge just like as shot except further out. Have the Seanchan army out on the field to meet them. Conveniently for budget reasons right before they'd impact, have the Horn mist obscure everything. Seems the sole need for the Whitecloaks in the city proper was to give Perrin his moment to kill one.
All the fight scenes throughout the show were poorly planned and executed. Having more characters on screen doesn't make a better scene. Aviendha's fight is so bad...
And the artillery AFTER the charge. They handled attacking fortifcations better in The Holy Grail and that was MEANT to be a comedy.
The close-quarters combat scenes were awful - way too much shaky-cam and way too many edits. It's a problem not unprecedented with female directors - they seem to prefer blistering barrages of magic fireballs, even from a male hero. 🙂
Let's be real, no hate toward the man, but Rafe is at best a very mediocre writer and for sure shouldn't be the one to write battle sequences, they have been terrible till now. To add to what you said, how the hell did the Seanchan not hear the Whitecloaks coming? 🤦♀
The kitties are the best distraction - but also love the analysis, couldn't agree more.
I know, I find myself watching the kittens and having to rewind to pay attention again.
I thought it was a bold choice to reveal that Moiraine is Black Ajah and working in league with Ishamael, faking Dragon Prophecies to convince Rand and the World that the Dragon Reborn Reborn has been found when clearly the pattern has yet to weigh in on the matter. Can't wait to see how this develops in season 3.
I'm not sure where you got this from. She's clearly working with Lanfear against Ishamael. She even says that before she breaks the three oaths and kills the people Ishy stupidly put bunched up together.
@@christophercraig3907pretty sure they are joking
@@christophercraig3907 I will admit I don't know how Lanfear plays into the plot or why she thinks Rand is the true Dragon Reborn Reborn. But Ishy just standing there letting Rand him kill him while Moiraine fakes the dragon prophecy seem to go hand-in-hand with convincing Rand (and the world) that he really is the Dragon Reborn Reborn. I suppose it could be a coincidence. I can only assume Ishamael has the real Dragon Reborn Reborn locked up somewhere safe.
@@mewlins Okay, I thought this was pretty obvious, but there's a Darkfriend civil war going on of Lanfear against Ishy. Lanfear and Moiraine had teamed up to put Rand in Cairhein where Lanfear could get to him, but he wasn't progressing and needed to be shaken up so she sent a coded message through Bayle Domon to Moiraine (which is why Lan couldn't read it even though he's so fluent in the Old Tongue he can read about One Power practices lost to current Aes Sedai). Moiraine tried to push Lan away because she cares for him and didn't want him mixed up in a fight between two Forsaken, but he didn't get it and went to Siuan, who was still taking orders from Ishy. Siuan tried to keep Rand in the White Tower until Ishy's plan was ready, but Moiraine had orders from Lanfear to break him out, which is why she had to go against her lover and do it anyway. It's a pretty tragic season overall.
(And for anyone else that doesn't get it, yes I totally understand this is complete nonsense that happens to have higher explanatory power than the actual show)
@@christophercraig3907 I would actually forgive this dumpster fire of a show if what you guys are saying were actually true. It makes so much more sense then the plot of the show. In this "turning of the wheel" the dragon hasn't even been reborn yet, its just a battle of the forsaken vying for power and manipulating everyone to their own ends.
I always found Robert Jordan's blending of religions and cultures in WOT interesting. In religions that believe in reincarnation (Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, Sikhism), the ultimate goal is to be released from the cycle of death and rebirth (which is Nirvana), so I guess Ishamael is hoping for that. The Whitecloaks represent the old Crusades and Inquisition. So many different cities and lands in the books. Such a shame that the show doesn't show us more of the various cultures and beliefs rather than the juvenile YA romance interplay stuff. It's like this world is so small and has maybe a thousand people in it. This could have been such an interesting TV show - so disappointing.
I bet ya they changed how Egwene escaped was because she's a strong woman and can't be saved by a man. And further, after seeing the ideological bent of the show, I bet Rand does not free himself from a certain box, and instead Egwene or one of the female cast rescues him.
But Egwene wasn't saved by a man in the books 🤔
Tell me you haven't read the books at all without telling me...
@@bidossessi not from adam. it was nyneave. but later when they escape egwene got ptds and attack random seanchan and they get trapped.. and then rand and others come in with horn stuff and distract seanchan. white cloaks where minor treat and they got wiped out fast.
rand also fighted and killed turak and seanchan was focus on them letting egwene and others escape faster.
@@Gilescowdemdem He fought Turok to buy them time and would have run otherwise
@@wheelofwokesellouts3900 fair enough, but what was portrayed in the show was only the collar escape, which kind of limits the scope of comparison.
But the Dragon wasn't "proclaimed". The prophecy was manipulated by Moiraine, which completely undermines what prophecy is lol. I mean, if it was that easy, with the Tower's "rules" regarding the Dragon Reborn, wouldn't Aes Sedai have just channeled to "proclaim" the Dragon of their choice? Like a women, since they established a female could be the Dragon? I mean last episode Siuan was all "WE will use the Dragon, as WE see fit to suit OUR purpose and chain him up and WE will decide what happens with him and when!".
This would be like Rand branding himself with the herons rather than it happening by happenstance, unintentionally.
You're saying a show storyline doesn't make sense? surely not... 🙂
@@bigjonS4 The sad part is I probably have the most insane ability to suspend disbelief than anyone I know!
with how weak Ishmael is if Egwene and Moraine were linked they would have beat him without help with how OP Rafe has made them. Rafe and the other showrunner hate the books.
Idk in the books there where meny false dragons up to the point rand banner apeared in falme so imo this was fine as not tell the stone falls that the real dragon can be named in the books but seems tear is not going to focus next season so not sure when he will pull the sword
@@DaleVieira12 the banner raised in the book was for the Heroes to follow Rand though, nobody really made a point of proclaiming him, people just saw the fight and realized what was going on.
While I enjoyed simply watching, without thinking, S2 more than S1, this show is the result of writing that is based on...
1. "Wouldn't it be cool if..."
2. Everyone is a victim/beneficiary of circumstance rather than having personal agency in what they do.
That is partially what has contributed to the book character assassination pretty much across the board. The boys are just difficult to root for when they are made out to have questionable character that needs to be overcome rather than difficult circumstances. I get the simplified plot of Perrin killing Bornhald, but in this sequence of events, he straight-up murders him under no threat to himself.
So I really don't understand the perspective that this scene with Perrin is worse or makes Perrin bad, its darker and grittier then the books sure. You are looking at it like Perrin had his dog killed by a guy so he's not justified in killing that guy in return since dogs aren't as valuable as human life. But this isn't real life and that isn't just a dog. Would you feel the same way if Perrin had a close human friend Bornhald killed? Would he still not be allowed to kill in revenge of the loss of that friend? Because to Perrin the wolves are intelligent fully realized creatures that are not that different from human friends. This is a fantasy world after all. Animals a intelligent companions is fairly common in fantasy. So to say this makes Perrin a murderer is to say Egwene is a murderer(which as an aside she clearly is), and Rand is a murderer killing Ishy, since they clearly were in no danger of Ishmael what with Egwene being there to protect them. Ok that part was just a snarky aside. Anyway the point is Bornhald was justified in killing what he saw as a random wolf attacking his friend, but Perrin was just as justified killing Bornhald after he killed his friend.
One missed opportunity from a change in season 1 that I think reverberated negatively into season 2 was the first meeting between Elayne and Rand, and how it potentially effects the first meeting between Egwene and Elayne. In the books, Elayne's already met Rand at this point so the girls' meeting has an extra layer of complexity because Elayne is sort of a smitten kitten when it comes to Rand while Egwene has just ended a relationship with him. It's been years since I read them so I can't quite remember how it goes in the book, but even from a purely show standpoint, there's a lot of potential dramatic tension to mine from that dynamic, while also avoiding the issues you bring up in the video regarding Rand coming across as a bit of a cad for being all into Elayne in the middle of rescuing Egwene... But you know, they needed the screentime to show us Stepen committing suicide for an entire episode instead of having the boys visit Caemlyn.
Seriously. Egwene doesn't officially dump Rand until book 4 when she maneuvers Elayne to "pick him up" (remember, Rand wonders if they planned it--they did). But Rand and Egwene were over by Book 2, maybe Book 1, when Egwene decided to be an Aes Sedai and learned Rand could channel. Also, she meets Gawyn and Galad in Book 2 and is clearly into both, although she denies it. Moving when Rand meets Elayne is fine, but having him bounce between women the way he does in the show demonstrates a misunderstanding of his character. He does have three girlfriends in the books, but up until the end he is rotating between them and never fully committed because he thinks he isn't going to live long. And he still tries to marry Aviendah after sleeping with her. Rand is cutely daft when it comes to women. He is not a player. He is just really lonely.
@@amys0482 "Rand is cutely daft when it comes to women. He is not a player. He is just really lonely." might just be the best description of Rand that I've ever heard.
I'm pretty sure that Dain doesn't meet with his father immediately prior to his father's death at Falme, he learns of his father's death from Byar. Dain is with Valda near Tar Valon when Geofram is called to Amador and then Falme
The mistake you're making is thinking this show is based on the books.
Perrin absolutely does not murder his father either.
@@andrewfrank7222 No, but he does murder two Whitecloaks in similar circumstances which is at least one of the reason why Dain Bornhold is after him. So they didn't make Show-Perrin into something that Book-Perrin isn't. For me that is the kind of change/simplification I am ok with.
@@gildor8866 in the books, Perrin’s action is preceded by stalking and illegal threats from soldiers, and many people debate this being self defense in the books.
In the show, it is murder, with the claim of temporary insanity, but it is so much darker because a few minutes ago Perrin was fighting back to back with Dain (how that makes sense a few days after Perrin slaughtered a minority of a squad with Avienda doing the lion’s share)…
@@jsbrads1 Dain and Perrin fighting back to back is just the chaos of the battle. Dain is certainly surprised to see him there, but he has more pressing needs right now. IIRC Perring and Aviendha didn't kill any whitecloaks during the fight so right now for Dain he is the lesser evil and the enemy of his enemy. Valda clearly thinks different.
I don't think the selfdefense-argument concerning Perrin in the books is very convincing, given that the killing is triggered by the whitecloaks killing Hopper in a clear case of selfdefense themselves, same as Bornhold does in the show. But the show leaves even less room for it.
I'm glad you mentioned the goofy way Rand was holding the sword. If you look deeper into it, it really shows the productions lack of competence and understanding of core concepts(not just from the books, but what they're trying to achieve).
The entire basis of the "Heron marked sword" concept from the book is so Rand can get his prophecy brand on his palms.
The show has seen this, decided to keep it, but put the heron mark in a place where nobody bar a toddler would hold a sword.
The ENTIRE reason the brand ends up a perfect representation of the heron(in the books) is that it's the only metal part he's touching when the sword super heats. In the show, he just burnt his entire hand and cut 3 fingers off.
Also, a glaring continuity flaw re the heron. There is ONE scene where there actually IS a heron on the hilt(where it's meant to be). That's the turok scene. They added it so turok could see the heron and have his line. They intentionally broke continuity, so one guy could have one line in one scene...geniuses
I get the point regarding the inconsistency with Rand's ability to channel. There's some of that even in the book, though. I always attributed it to the fact that he does have LT's memories there even at this point ( like he tells Min: "I may be him now, but he was always me as well. I was always him."). So I think there's a built in explanation for him to weave by instinct. I had more of an issue with Siuan being able to shield him so easily in Ep. 7. He had already embraced the source in that scene. She would not have been strong enough to cut him off, even with more training IMO.
Wouldn't matter if she had trained for a thousand years, it's not how the power structures in the books are created.
And you don't even have to reach into the books to make your point. They themselves established in the show it took at least two Aes Sedai to shield Logain, and Logain says Rand is stronger then he is, so all those scenes make no sense.
Maybe it’s just me, but if I was guarding the city walls and saw a large, unnatural smoke cloud followed by the thunderous drum of a cavalry charge, I’d probably slam close the city gates as fast as possible. What could the cavalry do after that? Falme is too big and way too fortified for this kind of attack to make sense. It has been a while since I read the Great Hunt but I always visualised Falme as a large town with wooden palisades at best for fortifications. It’s not as bad as trollocs climbing walls with bare hands, but it still shows a lack of research into medieval warfare
"The thunderous drum of a cavalry charge..." Exactly! The so-called creators have obviously never been to a race track.
The Seanchan were coming out of the city to fight the Whitecloaks in the books. Apparently it wasn’t a walled city.
Mystery fog in the desert in the middle of the day... Seanchan familiar with fighting against armies using the One Power... You'd think the Ever Victorious Army would put two and two together.
"Strength of main character power which the writers have granted her", this should be trademarked as the episode title 😂
This also explains why Rand didn't immediately die from being stabbed by the dagger, like happened to a not-main-character earlier in the same episode (and in the books).
I just wanted to see Rand do something to make up for the last finale...
Rand in book three didn’t channel fire missiles. He made himself one sword of fire and then used it like a sword and fought them.
I love your reviews. They're intelligent, well thought out and very fair. The show is sort of fun to watch but overall it is a huge letdown for book readers with plot holes everywhere.
One of the recaps I've been waiting for.
Thank You for your boundless capacity to express rationally and kindly the limits the choices made by the people making this TV Show, impose on its capacity to produce quality viewing.
Watching you after watching THAT… that being Episode 8, is my Sanity Medicine.
Your conclusions are Myrrhic Balm on the open wounds watching the last 2 Epsiodes of Season 2 kept lashing open, before they could even scab over.
Amy, Thank You for your efforts and kind hearted perseverance. Please don’t let the vagaries of the TH-cam algorithm make you think your work is not appreciated.
Myrrh. It is purest Myrrh.
Great stuff Amy. I enjoy this format of delivering your opinions on the tube. Me being someone who haven't read this bookseries (but I have read other fantasy series such as lotr, asoiaf, HP, SoT among others) I appreciate to be kept in the loop with the references, half the enjoyment from watching famous adaptions is to see how often the failed at doing what the should, which is to retell the same story in a different medium. I understand the urge to not overly criticize actors since the get alot more flack than the usually deserves but claiming every character was "well casted" is a bit ... you know. For example the choices (made by writers, directors, producers and yes actress) with how Nynaeve was potraited and perceived was imo abyssmal. I dislike that character with passion and it makes someone question Zoe Robins acting capabilities. On the the other hand, despite having similar problems with the character choices (from above mentioned people), Rosamund Pike still conveyed her acting prowess across the screen. Right choice for Moraine? Who knows, but here they def cast a proper actor.
I dislike show Moiraine so much that's easy for me to dislike Rosamund Pike as well. I can't see any daylight there between the two. I just want them to go away. On the other hand, I also dislike show Nynaeve but I think Zoe Robins' acting is pretty good. She's making memorable performances even with crap writing.
Rosamund Pike's narration of the books is great.
I will sacrifice myself so you can can run! Save the horn while I buy you time!
Dies three seconds later and the five are all standing there watching him die...lol
Great assessment of the episode, Amy. There were so many absurdities in this episode I found myself laughing out loud several times. It was bad.
You KNOW that when Rand gets Callandor it's going to be written so that his purpose is to allow Egwene to use it to save the day
We don't know that. Let's WAFO.
What does WAFO mean?
I don't think Callandor will even make an appearance.
@@darriuscole8544 Watch and Find Out I would guess
@@amys0482 You don't think so? It's so key...Although you never can tell when they change stuff. And of course its [spoiler] use seems like the kind of route the show already tries to go.
Love your commentary as always, but I have to disagree with how the show handled the Perrin and the white cloaks conflict. as you mentioned in the books Perrin was accused of being involved in the death of Geofram Bornhald by second hand information, and Perrin was able to avoid trial buy a sort of technicality which is justified because he was innocent of what he was accused of. But know he has been seen first hand, by Dain of actually killing Bornhald. I'm sure the writers think they cleverly created an event that will lead to the Two Rivers battel from Book 4, but it is just another example of changes the will lead to problems later on.
I also left out the thematic importance of misinformation and disinformation in WOT, but I can see that for TV this conflict has more immediate grit. Perrin can't be absolved like he is in the books so you would have to solve that conflict another way, but I do think that is possible to do.
Thanks very much! I would like to see that review of the entire season
They did Ingtar so dirty in this show.
They've done every character dirty in this show.
Putting a hand on the blade is possible without hurting oneself, and was done back in our middle ages (as seen in paintings and sword manuals). It's called the murderstroke. But it was used mostly do defeat heavily armored opponents in the late middle ages, to either bludgeon them or get into the armor's gaps. It doesn't make that much sense when attacking Ishamael, who wears no armor.
It was done in the show just so that Rand's hands are being engraved with the heron mark. In the books, the heron signs are on the pommel, in the show they're on the blade.
It looked ridiculous
But putting your hand on the blade like the show did, wouldn't produce the mark. It's clearly etched into the blade
Maybe wearing gloves, or if the ricasso is long enough to fit your hand, but neither of those things are present in the show. In the books, the heron mark is on the hilt, where it is in the Turok scene of the show, but ONLY the Turok scene.
They even manage to mess this one up too
If only Wheel of Prime would send Amy the script before filming, they might actually make a good show.
Also, great job with the edits and pictures for this! Loved it! @amys0482
@@teej_dv They have access to Jordan's wife, Brandon Sanderson, and Sara already. This is still what they came up with.
Amy thank you very much for this service that you are done. Being a huge book fan myself I was never able to separate screen from print as well as you seem to have done and I cannot watch the second season and nothing that you are other people have said have made me even want to try.
Looking forward to more content from you get some rest and I'll see you again soon
1:21:00 Agreed. It is fine to see what this creation will do. But clearly they do not know how to handle building up 5-6 main characters without making them do silly/horrible things. No one tuned in to this, to see GoT light. No one cares now about their love interests. The books on that front were compelling in that they were all young men and women first time falling in love/dealing with crushes/etc amongst these crazy responsibilities they now have. This stuff is comical. The world is ending and we are worried about lesbian lust and threesomes.
Rand and Lanfear hooking up is pointless nonsense that only serves to weaken ANY relationship Rand now has. Instead of being innocent, he is a bumbling yocal making his way to Vegas for the first time.
Couldn’t agree more. I’m a long time book reader who doesn’t mind when they change things from the books if they make sense… however a lot of what the show does contradicts “rules” that they have established themselves.
I personally don’t know how they managed to merge two great books together and produce something where half the episodes were just boring time wasting.
Like yourself I don’t hate it, just know that it could be better.
Got a lot of thoughts, not in sequence, my apologies...I think the ayahuasca tea was supposed to be Mat's first trip to Aelfinn, then horn takes place of 2nd trip to Eelfinn. He has his memories and a lame "ashandarei", only thing he doesnt have is the fox medallion, but pretty sure they just wrote out the snakes/foxes/tower of Ghenjei, all of which totally sucks. Now that season is over, i feel even stronger about how much time was wasted on Liandrin, don't care how good the individual performance was, it wasted TOO much time building up a character who is not THAT important in the grand scheme...unless she is replacing Elaida then maybe, but at this point totally took time from dev for Rand or Perrin. Hate that Perrin actually kills Geofram Bornhald, this totally efs up Dain's internal conflict w/ his obsession for vengeance. He has zero reason to question or doubt his convictions now, b/c Perrin DID kill Geofram, SO STUPID. Also, Valda was dead set on killing Perrin, but soon as hopper gets the axe he just drops in with Bornhald and leaves Perrin? I dont care if Bornhald says "Valda, w/ me." He wouldnt just leave Perrin there! The smoking censers were extremely stupid, and supposed to evoke the mist that gathered when the horn is blown and from which the Hunters for the Horn rise, STUPID! Ishameal and Egwene's stand off was infuriating, Rand can't do anything himself, he has to be prop'd up by Egwene so they can use her awesome theme music and get their money's worth for that sound bed, i guess ;). Ishameal just lets everyone under the sun come up the stairs and assist rand too? Like he couldn't spare a fire ball for them? All of sudden Mat's dagger is a light saber that melts everything like butter, still not sure how Loial is alive and well after getting cut/stabbed by it. Turok knew what was in the box w/o being told and how to open it, but I guess he was the only one with this omniscient knowledge. Stupid that Loial and Ingtar just showed up with case/horn in hand w/ a passing comment about a "Cairhien woman's help"' obviously Lanfear, but you couldn't spare a scene or two to show these events? Oh i forgot how much time you wasted on Lan taking a piss, Liandrin being a mother, amongst others. Moiraine's "dragon banner" was so fucking cheesy, I thought I was watching Percy Jackson or some other YA level magic conjuration, and why the ef does this signal Car'a'carn to Aviendha? There's absolutely no groundwork for this in show and that is not how the Car'a'carn is claimed amongst the Aeil. He has to go to Rhuidean and the pillars and gain the dragon tatoos on both arms...SO EFFING STUPID. I could go on, but feel like ive reached my character limit, plus im having to senor my language now, so should stop ;). Can't understand the glowing reviews for this show though, guess its b/c S1was so bad that S2 seems amazing in comparison, and that's the only metric used to quantify/qualify the value of this show.
P.S. I had the exact same thought about Aeil raising their veils in that moemnt, shouldve already been up and prepared to kill. As for Mat finding Perrin, could've easily been explained by Ta'verens at work with Loail's iconic line, "hmmmm, Ta'veren!" but they've done absolutely nothing to reinforce this phenomenon after laying the groundwork in S1.
Yes, I also noticed that 2 out of 3 Eelfinn purchases have now been accomplished- without Mat even visiting their realm. That "light saber" quality will sure come in handy when he does finally visit, IF he visits.
How does Ishy's tea emulate the Aelfinn visit, though? If anything, it's probably the opposite, since the Snakes don't lie (even if their answers are rather murky). It's only because of Mat's visit to their realm that he then goes to see the Foxes. If those visits aren't in the show, and Mat gets the fox medallion some other way...
Then what's the point of even having the Tower of Ghenjei? Moiraine's storyline is jacked, and Mat's makeshift ashanderei isn't needed. And where does that leave Thom?
Somebody make it make sense.
The show is a garbage fire fueled by the hate of the source material by Rafe. Rafe sets up a rescue of Egwene then has her break the tv and book rules and free herself. No pay off for Jake Al'Thor once again. Mat is unlucky and gets tricked and blows horn to fight 20 soldiers, wah wah. Did either of the show runners actually read the books?
Was it a horn though? Looked like a watering can to me.
Having not read the books, I went along with quite a bit of the episode and enjoyed it. However what stood out, even with my limited knowledge, was how Egwene was able to stand up to Ishamael. Fair enough, she was clearly struggling to hold him back but even in the show the Forsaken have been set up as far more powerful than the Aes Sedai, and Egwene hasn't even completed her training! As you say, its clearly an example of giving a main character extra powers at the expense of logic.
You are not their target audience. Their target audience doesn't like or cannot use their brain. They don't think so they don't ask questions like that.
Will you watch this again? This is the question I hope to ask non book readers
Perrin's shield is Captain America's shield. Which makes Uno Captain America in a previous life! :)
All those who chose to oppose Uno's shield must yield.
First thirty seconds and you already made me laugh twice lol. Love your reviews!!
@Amy_Stewart In the book doesn't Nynaeve also throw up the first time she uses the a'dam ? to help further reinforce her dispising it's use. But in the show they make her seem to e leaning towards evil. There's something worse with the Egwene putting the collar on rene, like she see's it as a weapon and a way of capturing Rene so how on earth did she pick it up in the first place cos we've been shown she can't touch the pitcher till she's trained herself not to see it as a weapon ( i may be projecting book here though).
Valder isn't dead or shouldn't be for getting bit on an armoured arm . They got around the Taren Ferry thing with the fact she'd finished channeling when the guy swam out there and died so her channeling wasn't a direct result. and i'm pretty sure they said cannot kill except in their own defence in season 1 so yeah Moiraine broke the oath, ot like it's hard to as verin does it :|
Women are stronger in the power than men, you should know this as a book reader :| ( cough cough splutter splutter) so of course Egwene can hold off Ishmael as a complete noob. Of course my question is with all the fireballs why didn't the Sul'dam gentle him like wasn't that the signal ? Also Mghedien was weaker than Lanfear in the books, and it seems that she's stronger here :| by be able to hold lanfear.
yeah the term and interpretation of "weapon" is important here. They trained her not to touch something as a weapon which she wanted to smash into Renna's face. The a'dam, whilst it is able to mete out punishment, is a ter'angreal which Egwene has realised creates a link between channellers. So she can easily disregard it as a weapon. In my opinion anyway.
@@TevitolMUN this could work if they hadn't shown how the link worked with punishment being able to be inflicted with just a thought and Egwene knows this and she actively did this with the intent to ensnare her, if rene had of fallen on the collar and it attached and then egwene pick up the bracelet then possibly but even then not to sure :|
I think it works as is. The act of placing the a'dam on Renna was not a physical assault and that is the only thing that really matters. @@SirBlaze75
@@TevitolMUN if that was the case then the a'dam wouldn't of hurt her when she was doing the mental abuse and killing rene, which is shown to be happening during the exchange, so it's not assault it's the thought of using an item as a weapon or form of revenge and doesn't even have to be on the leash holder since no bracelet was worn when the pitcher incident happened
It's not the thought of using something as a weapon, but trying to touch something that is a weapon. (Egwene thought of using the pitcher as a weapon well before Renna first walked into her cell. It only caused her pain when she was just about to touch it)
In episode 8, the pain Egwene was feeling was not due to her using a weapon, but because any pain her sul'dam feels is reciprocated to the damane.@@SirBlaze75
The only way the get around the oaths in this episode is if they see Rand as an Aes Sedai, which I guess they technically can. There is no rule that says Aes Sedai are female, they are because of the breaking of the world, were males were more or less forbidden to ever use the power again. It is also the fact that one of her sisters is up on that tower shielding the dragon, while her strengh is remarkable it will not last forever. In that regard you can see it as a protective weave to sink the ships. It is a bit of a stretch also think the Seanchan at this point are duped by the forsaken to there bidding, knowingly or not, which by definition turns them into darkfriends. I also believe it is supposed to look like Moiraine only sinks the ships, she is targeting were the fire erupts, and we never see a single human die from it, also a stretch but I believe it to be the case.
TBH I'm more willing to overlook the fact Morraine can attack them than I can overlook the fact she easily blows up all those ships. That's a crazy strength in the power and implies all of the main characters could blow up whole armies/fleets with ease. It also then makes the tiny fireballs that hit 1 person the damane are channeling seem so puny in comparison and not a real threat to a trained sister.
@@billtodd2194 that is an issue, I think Moiraine is scaled up in power however that does not work because she takes forever to open a gateway. I don't know, it's something the show runners do not understand is important to the fanbase. I guess she can be strong in battle weaves, and not anything else, that does not work with her chosen ajah. Yeah I just dont know. Unfortunate
...Book readers know Morraine is one of the strongest Aes Sedai until the main characters show up, but I don't think the show ever says that. So I would assume any nonreader would see Morraine blow up a bunch of ships and assume every sister can do that. And that's still again ignoring it's over-the-top even for Morraine too.
@@billtodd2194 I mean Lanfear can soe skin together, and flick her wrist to blow up heads. Many things are different, in that world I guess Moiraine is at least below Lanfear in strengh. I can solve Moghedien disarming her, with her having preparation already done which is in character for her, she set up the trap before with the spider weave. Also kinda believe she used the fades ability to turn into shadows, could be cool. The battle scene should of course have been granted to Alanna, it was set up that way, what was the point with her knowing about Lanfear? She did nothing about it at the end.
The oath should allow channeling to protect any person.
Thank you for your honesty! I think that you were very on point with all of your opinions.
SPOILERS
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1. Show Whitecloaks at least have a plan: approach the walls under cover of the smoke, capture the gate, assault the tower where they predict the Seanchan artillery (the damane) will be. Book Whitecloaks just mount their horses and charge the city, which would have been dumb enough even if they hadn't already been spotted by Seanchan aerial scouts. The show has basically leveled up the WC at the expense of the Seanchan looking a bit dumber.
2. Show Lanfear is just more open about helping Rand. Book Lanfear probably does more for the cause of the Light than most of the good guys: she"s responsible for Rand getting channeling instruction from Asmodean, she brings Trollocs to protect Rand when the other Forsaken send Trollocs to attack him in the Stone of Tear, etc. Her motivation is pretty clear: she wants to rule the world with the Dragon Reborn (or some other powerful man, since she also encourages Mat and Perrin to be ambitious once or twice).
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3. I'm guessing the show chose to have Renna use physical threats because it's more visual than a'dam torture. There are only so many times you can watch people writhing in invisible pain before it stops being interesting, maybe? But yeah, Egwene is being particularly dumb here; why would you warn your captor of your plans?
4. The whole contest of wills thing didn't really make sense. If the person wearing the collar experiences double the effect of what happens to the person wearing the bracelet, shouldn't that cause some kind of cascading feedback effect that kills or incapacitates both of them? It's obvious what they were going for, it just didn't work conceptually for me. Plus it propagates that whole modern trope of a "strong woman" who doesn't need help from anyone. Men are called "toxic" when they refuse to get help, but women aren't. Double standards suck no matter who is benefiting from them.
5. I won't blame the show for using coincidences as much as it does, because Robert Jordan certainly did plenty of that. I *will* blame the show for not exploring the whole ta'veren concept a bit more, since *that* is the in-universe excuse for all the contrivances>
6. Yeah, show Ingtar either got too much screen time or not enough screen time. I think they were trying to set up a redemption, but then decided at the end that they hadn't done enough, so they half-assed it.
7. Yep, the show actually did a better job of setting up the Dain/Perrin conflict.
8. Yeah, unmasking the bond should take a bit less effort. Like you, just glad that whole plot is over. And yeah, power as a weapon seemed like a direct violation of the Oaths.
9. Rand's Indiana Jones moment was ... fine? He certainly hadn't earned a Blademaster-level swordfight. So I guess this was better than that....
10. Yeah, just how many channelers does it take to shield Rand? /sigh /shrug
11. Yep, Uno was just as underdeveloped as Ingtar. Yet another result of tow few, too short episodes. Both seasons could have benefited massively from an extra hour or two.
12. Current consensus seems to be that Ishamael wasn't really trying to beat Egwene and that the whole scenario was yet another ruse/illusion. /shrug
13. I didn't mind Nynaeve being useless in the finale. So far she's gotten more hero moments than anyone else.
14. Elayne being a bad healer might help explain why the wound will never really heal. Maybe?
15. Rand's use of the sword is actually semi-historical; it's called half-swording. But the context is all wrong; it's normally used to aim for weak points in an enemy's armor. Ishamael isn't wearing armor, so....
16. My biggest gripe is how many cool moments from the book didn't happen. Little things like Mat pointing out "does the prophecy say we can't blow the horn *before* the Last Battle?" and big things like Mat's duel with Gawyn and Galad. But, to be fair, even *good* adaptations like The Lord of the Rings and The Maltese Falcon have left out awesome scenes. But it's still disappointing.
Your Uno comment is spot on 🤦🏻♀️ it was so ridiculous that they included him as a Hero of the Horn when he hadn't displayed any heroic/noble qualities
Commenting for the algorithm. This was a great breakdown and hits home the inconsistency of the script really really well. I lament that the show doesn't have stronger writing. And I scratch my head thinking how the HELL I'm gonna fan edit this into a coherent story. Structure and plot wise it's a lot messier than S1.
I'm sorry if this is a double post. If you want sound help, feel free to reach out. I enjoy your commentary. Your sound balancing needs work. I'm willing to help. If you don't want help, I'll still be here. Thanks for posting. :)
Answer: Everyone else is drunk!
Great review! FYI that metal smoke device the children used is called a "thurible" - which is used in some churches to purify a procession. I suppose the writers were trying to convey that the Whitecloaks think of themselves as on some sort of holy mission. Of course there is no explanation of this in the show.
Show don't tell? I mean, it's all pretty obvious, why would it need to be explained?
Not a cat person but I am obsessed with the sleeping kitty in the background
A pretty good breakdown of the episode. Silly and incoherent. I'm not really a fan of silly and incoherent things but I suppose there are plenty of people who are.
One tid bit: There is a sword technique called "half-swording" where a person would grip their sword blade in the way Rand does at the end of episode 8. So it is a thing, sort of. However, it's used in armored fighting in the western martial tradition when you're close to your opponent, often as part of a grappling sequence. The idea is to give you better point control as you try to thrust into the gaps in your opponent's armor. Of course, if you're opponent does not have armor (like Ishy here), then it serves no purpose.
Speaking of armor. I'm irritated that no commentator has called out the show for having Perrin whack Bornhald to death with an axe swing right through a steel breast plate (or coat of plates maybe). Why does armor always do absolutely nothing in fantasy shows and why do audiences not care???? If you think pushing the fletching of an arrow through a wound is ridiculous, imagine swinging a metal baseball bat at an anvil and what that would do to your arm. Audiences deserve better than this silliness. We should mock shows without mercy for being so lazy.
maybe i am wrong, but isn't the "half-sword" technique not only used with two-handed weapons like the long sword ( yes, the D&D longsword is NOT accurately named 🤓) or great sword, but NOT with a Katana, which is very rarely used as a stabbing but almost exclusively slashing weapon?
much more ridiculous than pushing a crossbow quarrel through a thigh is Elayne staying conscious throuout the process. Also, why the hell not just slapping the hell out of Nyneave to make her angry, then let her heal you with the One Power...
And i absolutely mock this and other shows for being so lazy 🥸🤣😂
I too thought some of the scenes didn't make sense, but they did have a lot happen in the show and it seemed to move a lot better. The show did have some continuity problems with power/skill levels of the various characters. For what it's worth this is one of the better episodes of the season. I hope they keep improving. As always I appreciate your great insights. Thanks again.
Please take a break. That had to be exhausting. I’ve decided from now going forward just to watch your and Rachael’s? (Blocking on her name) reviews to see if it starts to make any sense. This episode I will admit is exciting, but has strayed to far from the books to have anyway back to the story I want to see. After five days enough of what that show was has leaked out of my brain and onto my pillow case that by a quick wash it will be gone and I can just go back to the books and reread the story that I love. Being angry that debt and obligation is paid by beating someone up just shows they have no understanding of this story, but is not serving me well. So thank you so very much for what you do. I look forward to your reviews.
I stopped watching after episode 4, so this may have been already answered in the show; but if all the seals are broken, then what is holding back the Dark One? Is there another set of seals that are keeping him bound?
I don't know what the DO is in the show. There are no mentions of seals. The Forsaken are sealed instead.
This show has nothing in common with the books. It is a separate story, a fanfiction if you like, using similar characters. That's all.
31:27 In a previous episode, I recall Ishamael saying he knew / understood Lanfear's motivation(s), when she asked him why he released her out of all the Forsaken.
I would typically interpret that as meaning he was confident in his ability to prevent or counter a betrayal from Lanfear - but in this episode he doesn't seem to come close to managing this - and it does makes him look incompetent. Does anyone have another view?
nope
This was another letdown. They did Ishy bad too. In episode 5, they made us believe Ishy knows that Lanfear was gonna betray him.. I felt that acting and that drama was so cool. Season 2 set up ishy to be a master planner, but the very last episode showed us he had no clue! What a season😂😂😂
I've had a long time to think about the a'dam v a'dam scene in this episode and I think I figured it out - the collars cancel each other out; like they are unusable, not like they can be used against each other. That explains why 1. in the show, egwene is capable of channeling all of a sudden, and 2. why Egwene is able to hurt Renna. What I don't understand yet is why Egwene still felt the pain that renna was feeling.. maybe that psychic link was still viable.. Maybe I don't understand what happened. Thinking about this for too long makes my head hurt.
My bigger question is how Egwene got the collar on Renna when Egwene clearly meant to do Renna harm through the collar and we established she couldn't even pick something up if she meant to use it against her. It was a cool scene but so inconsistent
Interesting solution. But not all effects are cancelled out, since Renna got hurt from trying to hit Egwene. I figure that Egwene was able to mentally give Renna the command, "Let me channel," and then lofted her onto the convenient bracket. Renna might normally be able to block such a command, but it was unexpected and so got through...and only had to work once.
If you're having to try and figure it out in a way that makes sense to you, the show failed.
Easy answer is egwene just had renna channle as her demane not to hard to figger out
In the later books there is the example of a cross-warder bond (man bonded to woman and the woman bonded to the man) having unexpected effects. So I would definitely go with the two collars interacting with each other here. And its completly unknown how they react, cancelling each other out or short circuiting. What certainly does not happen is that they function like before because then any pain inflicted by one woman on the other would lead to a reeinforcing feedback-loop when each collar reflect the pain suffered by his "suldame" to his "damane".
I will say that Egwene being saved by coincidence and such is in keeping with them making her a ta'veren . so....huzzah!....I guess. 😆
Not that they have really set up ta'veren or anything.
She's the Dragon Reborn I think.
Fantastic wrap up! Thanks for the great breakdowns for the season! I really enjoyed your take. If you get a chance go watch the live reaction on the Dusty Wheel with Brandon Sanderson and Daniel Greene for episode 8. You will feel immensely validated in your criticism of the plot and structure within the context of the show. Everything you thought didn't work were notes that Sanderson gave of what was wrong with the script - which apparently the show runner and writers ignored. By the way, the Shadar Logoth dagger on a stick is (apparently) the ashandarei according to Sanderson. Oh boy. I can't even wrap my brain around that one.
I hadn’t yet heard that Sanderson said that about the ashandaeri but I picked it up nonetheless when I saw it’s design and the fact that Mat used it to free himself when feeling trapped in a room (as he does in a later book).
As time goes on, I’m growing more familiar with Mr. Judkins desire to take cool/interesting bits from various places in the books, and show them in his own different way, and this felt just like that.
You give the best reviews, thanks for putting them up! I totally agree with your views. I’ll never understand why they have to add or completely change scenes while also cutting 75% of the source material. I hope they change things up and actually devote a few minutes to character development. Right now it’s just.. “here’s a big moment, do something cool to meet it”.. with no plausible reason as to why or how they’d be able to. Like why does Rand even have a sword? He doesn’t use it. I would have sold that thing the first city I had to sleep in a barn. 😂 Lan is completely wasted on this show. Ugh.. It’s just frustrating loving a story and seeing it being ham fisted into whatever this is. 😢
Not to mention.. ZERO THOM SIGHTINGS in the entire season!!
The problem I have with perrin killing bornhald is that it is straight up murder. He flies into a vengeful rage and murders a guy who has no way of knowing wolves are people.
In the middle of a battle so... some mitigation there, unless every soldier is a murderer. And the whitecloaks he felled in the books was in a similar state of rage and defense of wolves
He does the same thing in the Great Hunt. Hopper dies to a Whitecloak lance and everything goes red for Perrin.
Lmfao I didnt even notice she didn't even break off the fletching. Thats fucking hysterical! Thats so insanely ridiculous
Thank you, Amy, for taking the time to break all of this down and being the constructive voice of many. I’m a show-only, but I was deeply disappointed with the latter half of the season, building up Rand and Nyneave and watching them fall off a cliff as far as character arcs. From what I’ve seen, it’s a bad adaptation and a mediocre standalone series. I don’t see myself continuing, even if it does improve. And I don’t think it’s reasonable to excuse the show’s failings as “it’ll get better after 3, 4, 5 seasons.” They had the opportunity to breathe life into a beloved IP, while improving on some things that wouldn’t work for the visual medium and they blew it. Your analysis are great to watch, though.
I hate how TV adaptations not only break book-universe rules, but break their own series-universe rules. Egwene collaring Renna is a really really weird situation because of the conflicting power dynamic they now have with each other, and the computer scientist in me foresees an instant deadlock situation, a mutual recursion, and both women falling to the ground, burned out and dead. Or... neither can do anything requiring executive functioning, and sit impassively, incapable of action. But by one rule that the series *did* take the trouble to actually spell out, Egwene should've been incapable of killing Renna; she was still leashed mentally to her. This really should've been a scene where someone else helps Egwene to get free. *Then* comes the character test for Egwene about how to treat Renna.
You'll get all sorts of justifications for why this could've happened. All of it headcanon. The fact is the show shattered the rules it had painstakingly established in prior episodes just for a meaningless 'girlboss' moment. Not to mention the massive implications for the Seanchan empire and the world.
What I like about the TV show is that the forsaken are much more complex characters. The books were pretty much cookie cutter. But having people play the roles with background makes it more enjoyable.
This is fair. It took me many years to appreciate that the Forsaken in the books are intentionally written like this, because they are narcissists and sociopaths with deluded grandiose ideas of themselves and not much more. They are realistic villains. I have met watered down versions of them in real life.
We've only really seen two haven't we? (unless I fast forwarded through others which is eminently possible). Ishamael/Ba'alzamon is not cookie cutter in the books IMO. He's an insane nihilist who just wants oblivion not dominion and is more than a little insane. Although Lanfear in the show was, probably, the highlight of the season, I prefer book Lanfear. The more manipulative approach (rather than her being so directly involved) works better for me narratively.
Wouldn’t Moghedian be significantly weaker than lanfear? Considering she’s on the level of Nyneve and lanfear is literally as strong as a channeled could be?
As has been established, the show doesn't care about this. But yes, she would have needed an angreal or some other assurance for this if following book logic.
In terms of using the One Power -- Moghedian is weaker than Lanfear. Moghedian could still probably take Lanfear out if she was of a mind to and caught Lanfear by surprise. I don't know if she would, though; the two of them broadly being on the same team.
Hey Amy. I appreciate your videos, and enjoyed this one. It's good to see the most positive critical take, or perhaps the most critical positive take, on the show laid out in such detail.
Finally a useful analysis! Thank you SO much for this. Show is not bad, but OMG it could be so much better if the show runners were even somewhat competent.
Thanks for your detailed review! I recently watched one of your Season 1 videos - The Plot of the Wheel of Time TV Show Doesn't Make Sense - and it answered a question I had long been pondering - who is the target audience for this show?
If, as intended, the show is for fantasy genre fans with a zero to moderate familiarity with the source material, I would say they've somewhat succeeded.
It is jarring and incoherent for those who have clear and specific expectations of the show based on the big picture and little detail of the books. Otherwise, some of Season 2 (particularly episode 8 as you point out - which currently has an IMDb rating of 9.2) has been an exciting watch, especially if you are looking more for flash and less for logic / consistency - and in this regard, perhaps it also appeals to non fantasy genre viewers.
I don't yet have an answer to why choose to adapt source material if you are going to significantly deviate from it.
I don't think the show is internally consistent _even_ without knowing the books. Egwene is a glaring example from the very first episode of the first season.
@@bidossessi - I am not a book reader and I don't think the show is consistent or coherent either.
The intended audience is the normies, it's always the normies. The thing is the best way to get the normals to keep watching is to stick to the source material. The showrunners don't know that.
@@darriuscole8544 maybe audiences for this kind of show have become content to watch collections of "cool scenes", Ooh-Aah at the right places, and generally leave their brains at the gate.
@@bidossessi Agreed. Amy points out something in this review which I fear the show is counting on - if you bombard (non-book) viewers with fast-moving, visually captivating, emotionally dramatic scenes, they may be less inclined to think about or critically evaluate the show's consistency,
Very immersive with the screencaps! Well done.
SO time consuming, like 7 hours just doing that.
@@amys0482 Better late than never! Boo, hoo, hoo! Poor Amy! Her commitment to artistic creation is ruled by the whims of a giant corporation's fickle algorithm rather than the sacrifice her fans make slogging through a giant corporation's mediocre content simply to appreciate her clever analyses of it. 🙂
@@waltergold3457 what?
@@amys0482 Just kidding! 🙂 You did say, though - if I'm not misremembering - that you question whether the effort is worth it if your visibility doesn't increase. (Yes, I watched, as I always do, to the very end. 🙂) Perhaps you should take inspiration from Nerdrotic, who labored for years in obscurity before one particularly misused franchise - I forget which one, exactly - put him on the road to nearly a million subscribers.
@@amys0482 That's actually crazy 🙃 Maybe timebox this task - no more than 2 hours to get and do the photos. They don't need to be perfect. I'm sure you'll get faster at it. Also, if it's a factor of your script length, then, hmm, be more blase about dropping some talking points 😇
21:49 I agree with you about the power of the a’dam. The book reader knows how absolutely incapacitating and compulsory these terangreal are and is key to understanding later scenes in the books.
In this turning of the wheel Rand is just the town bike. He will have a new lady each season and be emo.
Really loved your breakdown - great points! I didn't understand how Egwene was able to touch the a'dam if she intended to use it as a weapon against her sul'dam (Renna). Then she was able to harm Renna with the a'dam, despite us knowing Egwene should feel that pain twice over (as she is also Renna's damane). I thought perhaps the show was implying that Egwene was so strong that she simply withstood this pain, but I did not find it believable. Nynaeve and Elayne should have saved her and then the three of them (linked) should have stood against Ishamael. Egwene holding off Ishamael alone did not seem realistic. Side note though - I find it odd that you clearly read the books but find it odd that Rand is interested in multiple women. Didn't he end up with three girlfriends simultaneously at the end of the books?
I agree, that would have made more sense
To your last point, it would be odd at this point in the books, but Rand sleeping with either of them at all would be odd at this point. Rand's view of girlfriend and marriage in the books changed over time, but was never in doubt for the reader. To my mind there's a huge difference between the three girls he can't decide between and hates himself for it basically tell him it's going to be a polygamous relationship and he resigns himself to it and him just getting involved with people behind other partner's backs, and the one we have in the show isn't the more upright one.
Strongly disagree with you regarding Perrin killing Bornhald. Mostly agreed otherwise, although I don’t think this finale was any better than S1.
Excellent, intelligent analysis as always. Hope this series gets remade one day with you as one of the writers.
The change to Hopper's death/the white cloaks vendetta against Perrin is WORSE in the show like everything else they changed. In the show Hopper was killed because he was random wolf all of the sudden attacking a person on the side of the white cloaks in the middle of a battle. It could be a Seanchan wolf! Kill it! Then 2 minutes later Perrin just shows up whacks the leader of the whitecloaks right in front everyone for no reason as they see it. It was all much more justified in the book where they are being threatened and Perrin reacts immediately.
Shield appeared on top of rubble still after Heroes disappeared. Shield could have been absorbing chanelling from Ishy to help Egwene hold. Is shield going to stay in show as replacement for Mat's foxhead medallion?
Thanks for the review! You've always been good at being positive but rightfully critical of the show as needed. I'd give this season a 6.5 overall, mainly because I have a hard time turning my WoT Book brain off, and I weigh the lore, magic, finale and Rand's portrayal as the main character more heavy than the rest of it. If the entire series would be adapted as accurately and as well as Nynaeve's accepted test and surrounding exposition, the season could've been an 8 easy.
I agree with you, the accepted test was fantastic, and was a good example of things being changed for tv but in a way that actually worked. Its too bad they don't care to adapt the rest of the story that well.
@@JayAshkevron Yeah that episode gave me hope for the series long term. Like, they CAN do this, here's proof! Now just do that at that level of care consistently for all of the characters, for the love of God, please.
Ugg the Rand/Turak scene. Even if it is has an homage to a book 3 scene. It is a TERRIBLE homage to that scene. Rafe said that book 3 scene was one which shows the reader the power that the Dragon Reborn wields. Errr....it is? He literally sword fights (albeit with flaming sword) those people in that scene. So we aren't getting a 'glimpse of the power the Dragon Reborn wields'. If any prowess is being demonstrated, it is his prowess with the sword.. So Rafe is paying homage to 2 scenes where Rand shows he has become an expert sword fighter.....by not having Rand sword fight. Brilliant! 🙄Thanks Rafe! A real homage for the fans there!
And as you state, their 'fix' for this is so stupid. 'Adapting this scene is a problem because we haven't show Rand ever using the sword. So we can't do that scene like in the books. But we can just have him use the power expertly...which we have also never shown Rand being able to do yet.' Brilliant logic!!!! Would it have really been so hard to show a few scenes of Rand learning the sword when he should have been learning the sword?
You didn’t come to watch a remake of an Indiana Jones scene?
30:11 the books give lots of evidence to Egwene‘s ability to withstand suffering, so that’s not so bad. However, you are perfectly correct in saying that the scene makes no sense logically. And this is a definite plot armor device to ensure a cathartic face off between the suldam and damane. How convenient.
Would Renna really have died so quickly? From what I understand, a person who's been strangled or suffocated will pass out, but will probably revive, eventually, if the breathing restriction is removed.
"Main character armor" I love that term.