Glad we have affirmation that cogging does exist in direct-drive systems... and it's both measurable and audible. The truth of the matter is (what many of us have known for years) each drive type has positives and negatives. Each is best in its *own way* so pick a table that works best for you and your budget and start spinning some vinyl. Your ears and heart will thank you for it. Thanks for posting this very interesting discussion.
@@papabear1417 Did you watch the video? Start at 10:24 They are not talking about mechanical noise, they are talking about issues with fidelity in playback, specifically in this case with platter spinning issues that affects most direct drive motors. But of course, every drive method has its pros and cons.
I'd like to see a feature in a turntable as was done on the Nakamichi models, which would spin the record, then automatically adjust the center of the record so that there would be no wow and flutter on off-center pressed discs. None of the audiophile expensive units do this. Your $100K turntable with the $40K tonearm and $25K cartridge will sound like crap if the record you play is pressed off center.
Watched the original video..this is a great video. My question is ..why shouldn’t a tt match the precision of the lathe/ cutting head that makes the master disk 🤔 Seems logical that if you’re getting “more out of the grove”..how was that possible given the manufacturers systems ….🧐 Dint get me wrong Vinyl is amazing..but you have to wonder 💭 HOW.
Boomers hearing things that aren't there because they spent alot of money. You are right, logically that is not possible, i doubt if any od those people can hear past 12khz
Great discussion by an interesting group. I'm wondering though, most of what's discussed is at the upper end of the market and matters to a small group of customers(enthusiasts). Like a lot of state-of-the-art tech, it eventually filters down to affordable, mainstream priced products. But, will there be a market for any of this? Right now, a lot of younger audio customers like vintage products because of some hip cool factor and more likely don't care about the kind of quality this roundtable is discussing. No one is taught much math and science in school anymore and the audio market is being driven by influencers and just about any no nothing person on TH-cam who decides to assemble a web channel and prattle on about a subject he's interested in but doesn't really know much about.
In manufacture the bigger the company the less they understand the basics. Raw materials are tested and get green light under certain setpoints of a machine that proces them. By time things do change (different location production of raw materials, different machines used to make raw materials as the machine you are running does not get any younger either). What big companies do not seem to acknowlegde is a drift (or shift when the same raw materials come from elsewhere) and keep clinging on to how is believed they should manufacter themselves. In the past you had machinists that were very good at taking notice of these things and had a little book with data they wrote down. Today in manufacture this work is done by temps with more often than not no dedication to the product and taking notes is rare so there is no data to fall back on and seeing a shift in data happening. All that is done is go to setting as they were and wonder why targets aren't met. Seen at a company they started taking notes because they wanted to standardise on how products should ran (setpoints) to come to the conclusion this was near impossible. You had to adjust for visible as measurable criteria. There was a standard for setpoints but became "a religion" instead of a starting point with some room to move. Targets were unrealistcly high and pressure raise delivering on time. So the wiggle room was simply gone (output over quality) with a result of rejects by customers (expensive shoes, not mentioning any brands). One division of that company was killed of by the company themselves blaming the temps not doing their job 😅
Arrgh! 20nm scale? Do you maniacs realize the mess my head made when it exploded??? The neighbor lady two houses down is staring daggers in my direction! 😳😳😳🤯🤯🤯
So many years and still talking about improving turntables? What were they doing while the record industry was nearly extinct? It for sure is a small private club.
Aging men and their need for spinning audio media. I'm 70 yo and don't miss 45's, LPs, CDs, SACDs etc. Streaming is not as great as analog yet, but someday it will. All that stuff in the grooves will be available on digital someday. DACs are improving every year. Good bye spinning objects, I'll never miss the ritual of cleaning an LP and needle.
Let's be honest here, vinyl is worst than digital ( less dynamic range, background noise... and so on) So the romantic aspect I understand but Fidelity wise it's obsolete.... @intothevoid9831
@intothevoid9831 i agree with dihydrotestosterone, your vinyl is objectively and many times subjectively worse, and for music, with streaming is better for music because with it you can actually explore music and find new exciting music, with vinyl you listen to the same shit all the frickin time unless you keep buying records, but how are you gonna discover music if you're only listening to records. Its just a bad obsolete format and companies advantage of people's nostalgia, because most people in this hobby are 50,60,70 years old so they grew up with vinyl and they have a certain emotinal nostalgic connection to it, once you get past that vinyl is not better than digital in any shape or form.
@@makiskouloumparitsis9203 Cool story. Streaming sucks. Ive used streaming before and it sounds vastly inferior. People had no issue discovering new music prior to the invention of the internet. Enjoy your lofi.
What a great session. Thank you guys. You made me seriously think about leaving my current job, learn more about vinyl and turntables and go pro.
Micro Seiki CF-1 used carbon fibre for its arm-tube. I believe it was manufactured in 1979 - 1984. Mine still sounds lovely.
What is this affordable Tonearm???
Glad we have affirmation that cogging does exist in direct-drive systems... and it's both measurable and audible. The truth of the matter is (what many of us have known for years) each drive type has positives and negatives. Each is best in its *own way* so pick a table that works best for you and your budget and start spinning some vinyl. Your ears and heart will thank you for it. Thanks for posting this very interesting discussion.
That's BS. In cheap old motors possibly. My 1980s direct drive automatic JVC deck was silent
@@papabear1417 Did you watch the video? Start at 10:24
They are not talking about mechanical noise, they are talking about issues with fidelity in playback, specifically in this case with platter spinning issues that affects most direct drive motors. But of course, every drive method has its pros and cons.
Thank you that was highly entertaining. Looks like I am going to have to start saving again, my gear is clearly dated! 😂
You are improving everything around vinyl, how about improving the vinyl.
Long live vinyl and long live the vintage revolution:)
Always thought it was crazy how you can hear the recording space in the groves, like the hotel girl in The Wall. “ wanna take a bath”
I'd like to see a feature in a turntable as was done on the Nakamichi models, which would spin the record, then automatically adjust the center of the record so that there would be no wow and flutter on off-center pressed discs. None of the audiophile expensive units do this. Your $100K turntable with the $40K tonearm and $25K cartridge will sound like crap if the record you play is pressed off center.
Watched the original video..this is a great video.
My question is ..why shouldn’t a tt match the precision of the lathe/ cutting head that makes the master disk 🤔
Seems logical that if you’re getting “more out of the grove”..how was that possible given the manufacturers systems ….🧐
Dint get me wrong Vinyl is amazing..but you have to wonder 💭 HOW.
Boomers hearing things that aren't there because they spent alot of money. You are right, logically that is not possible, i doubt if any od those people can hear past 12khz
What about mofi super ultra analog vynal,were are they.
Great discussion by an interesting group. I'm wondering though, most of what's discussed is at the upper end of the market and matters to a small group of customers(enthusiasts). Like a lot of state-of-the-art tech, it eventually filters down to affordable, mainstream priced products. But, will there be a market for any of this? Right now, a lot of younger audio customers like vintage products because of some hip cool factor and more likely don't care about the kind of quality this roundtable is discussing. No one is taught much math and science in school anymore and the audio market is being driven by influencers and just about any no nothing person on TH-cam who decides to assemble a web channel and prattle on about a subject he's interested in but doesn't really know much about.
In manufacture the bigger the company the less they understand the basics. Raw materials are tested and get green light under certain setpoints of a machine that proces them. By time things do change (different location production of raw materials, different machines used to make raw materials as the machine you are running does not get any younger either). What big companies do not seem to acknowlegde is a drift (or shift when the same raw materials come from elsewhere) and keep clinging on to how is believed they should manufacter themselves. In the past you had machinists that were very good at taking notice of these things and had a little book with data they wrote down. Today in manufacture this work is done by temps with more often than not no dedication to the product and taking notes is rare so there is no data to fall back on and seeing a shift in data happening. All that is done is go to setting as they were and wonder why targets aren't met. Seen at a company they started taking notes because they wanted to standardise on how products should ran (setpoints) to come to the conclusion this was near impossible. You had to adjust for visible as measurable criteria. There was a standard for setpoints but became "a religion" instead of a starting point with some room to move. Targets were unrealistcly high and pressure raise delivering on time. So the wiggle room was simply gone (output over quality) with a result of rejects by customers (expensive shoes, not mentioning any brands). One division of that company was killed of by the company themselves blaming the temps not doing their job 😅
Why has this video been uploaded again?
hu ? i could swear i saw this last week ... did i trevel in time ?
Arrgh! 20nm scale? Do you maniacs realize the mess my head made when it exploded??? The neighbor lady two houses down is staring daggers in my direction! 😳😳😳🤯🤯🤯
Lol i wonder why did you just post this when the one in tracking angle TH-cam is posted a long time ago
So many years and still talking about improving turntables? What were they doing while the record industry was nearly extinct? It for sure is a small private club.
Master Fremer heading the Jedi Council.
Fanatical Fossils.
I'll save you an hour. Yes
What about the new setup ideas are all dead now
A $100 DAC beats any turntable on the planet
Analog is obsolete
In your dreams. You obviously have no real world experience, or broken ears.
Aging men and their need for spinning audio media. I'm 70 yo and don't miss 45's, LPs, CDs, SACDs etc. Streaming is not as great as analog yet, but someday it will. All that stuff in the grooves will be available on digital someday. DACs are improving every year. Good bye spinning objects, I'll never miss the ritual of cleaning an LP and needle.
Why are you on a vinyl video if all you do is stream? Enjoy the lower fidelity.
Let's be honest here, vinyl is worst than digital ( less dynamic range, background noise... and so on)
So the romantic aspect I understand but Fidelity wise it's obsolete.... @intothevoid9831
@@dihydrotestosterone Nobody cares about your random measurements. All that matters is the music, vinyl is better.
@intothevoid9831 i agree with dihydrotestosterone, your vinyl is objectively and many times subjectively worse, and for music, with streaming is better for music because with it you can actually explore music and find new exciting music, with vinyl you listen to the same shit all the frickin time unless you keep buying records, but how are you gonna discover music if you're only listening to records. Its just a bad obsolete format and companies advantage of people's nostalgia, because most people in this hobby are 50,60,70 years old so they grew up with vinyl and they have a certain emotinal nostalgic connection to it, once you get past that vinyl is not better than digital in any shape or form.
@@makiskouloumparitsis9203 Cool story. Streaming sucks. Ive used streaming before and it sounds vastly inferior. People had no issue discovering new music prior to the invention of the internet. Enjoy your lofi.
Fremer is the biggest gaslighter in audio. Vinyl sucks!
NO YOU SUCK
No,it doesn’t suck, it just isn’t superior (anymore)
Your gear sucks*
@@intothevoid9831 your mother doesn’t think so when she’s at my place…
@@jimbennett2795 I did your mother. That is a fact!