The only truly English way of doing this is to have the names originate organically, haphazardly and make absolutely no analytical sense: they just happen, and later, it makes no sense as to why one perfectly applicable name was not used but a baffling one was instead chosen.
My brother and I were once thinking of English words that could be names of small English villages, but (probably) aren't. I came up with Mildew and Crapping.
Whoa, the “you are the x to my y” came early this time! I agree. I don’t think the DLR is really sprawling enough to warrant naming. Having all 3 shades of teal on the main TfL map would be nice though. I would personally categorise the dark one as a (dark) teal, the medium one as turquoise, and the light one as seafoam green.
@@hb1338 don’t they actually get updated every couple of years? Besides, Pantone values are more about ensuring brands have consistent colours, sidestepping monitor and printer calibration which might affect the RGB values you pick. I’m sure TfL specifies Pantone values to unify their printing and signage, but they don’t help a colour theorist to categorise their aesthetic function! Teal implies a darker shade with full hue saturation (though not necessarily as dark as on the DLR map), turquoise implies bright and vibrant (full saturation, full brightness), while seafoam green implies a pastel (full brightness but little saturation). It was even more important to think like that when mixing one’s own paints from basic colours, but it’s still a necessary framework to easily navigate the colour wheel in Photoshop/Illustrator. While all these names, though they may seem arbitrary to a layperson, have functional meanings in colour theory. They help to navigate the brightness/shade functionality, for instance painting a light grey object versus a dark grey object under a blueish light versus under a reddish light. It’s also useful for ensuring a large set of colours don’t clash with each other (with complementary colours you generally want one dark and one light, eg ruby with navy, or burgundy with sky blue).
But _if_ you already go all the way and colour the lines, they should be visibly distinct. You should be able to see at a glance, what colour it is without comparing. Also, for ease of accessibility, the colours should be fairly distinct.
The trouble is that it's very difficult to see what should and should not be separate lines. For example, it you depend on interoperability and ease of changing lines, you could count the Circle, District, Met, and H&C as one line, but if you look at destinations and termini, there are arguments to split up the Northern Line and District Line into smaller lines. There is an additional problem with maps and ease of use. Any map that includes every service detail will be difficult to use for general information, and any map that is easy to look at will not show some of the information. There's also a limited number of colour/line type combinations before they become too similar to distinguish.
The Hammersmith & City Line used to be a branch of the Metropolitan Line before it got its own identity. My guide would be, if you have to change trains to one going in the opposite direction, it is OK to have them the same colour, because it is obvious from the map anyway. But if you have to change trains to one going in the same direction (eg Finchley Road to Aldgate East), then they should be different colours to make it clear there are no direct services.
I find it very confusing that the District line is considered one line. Waiting at Bayswater for a train to Richmond, there was absolutelty no indication that it would never come. Not on the guidebook tube map, not on the maps at the station, nowhere.
Why such little love for Tower Gateway? It's only a couple of minutes stroll from Tower Hill and the District Line and an opportunity for a bit of fresh air and a chance to admire one of the finest remaining pieces of the old Roman city wall.
It's a shame that the descent to the bank tubes is too steep to accommodate a replacement station on the route into bank. With any future redevelopment of Fenchurch Street it could have been linked into an eastern entrance.
Agreed the DLR is really a single line with branches. However, I'd argue that denoting each service by a more distinctive colour than the varieties of blue would be helpful.
I have to disagree with your comment that the DLR is really a single line with branches. It is a network of differnet lines, and each line should have it own colour, to make it easier for people who don't know the network. To get around, and find their way in Startford and Canning Town stations, to get to the right DLR line.
@AtoZbyLocalBus if that is the case then we need to do the same for the District, Metropolitan, Central, Northern and Picadilly lines as well. The DLR has a core section and a major hub station (alright 2 with the Stratford International bit), if you get the wrong train you can change and go back to that core or hub and try again. On the Overground network, I have to know which part my station is on as there is no core or hub. I can't just change at Willesden Junction for a different branch if I got on a Watford DC line and realise I actually wanted the service to South Tottenham.
As a traveller it usually bugs me when the lines are not easily distinguishable. I'm on a train, and all of a sudden it branches off to some place I did not intend to go to. If it branches, it is not the same line. It might be, traditionally, but that is a relic from when there were a bunch of different companies, all with their separate networks.
@@quintuscrinis8032 the DLR has 3 major hub stations or 4 if you are counting Stratford station. The 3 major hub stations are Canary Wharf, Poplar & Canning Town. These 3 stations are not beside each other, but Poplar & Canary Wharf are close to each other. But only the line from Stratford calls at both of these stations. The Bank to Woolwich Aresanel and Tower Gateway to Backton call at both Poplar & Canning Town stations. The trains from Startford International to Woolwich Aresanel call at Canning Town, and not the other 2 hub stations. So that is why I say it is a network, as there is no core section where all the services run.
In middle Europe as well as Japan this is how it's done: We don't seperate by the track routes - but by services, whcih often intermix on the same tracks with each other.
Mr Hazzard yet another terrific video with the added repertoire that makes the videos so unique. Well done mate and thank you for taking the time to upload all of your videos. Stay safe and have a great weekend David 👍👍
The DLR is run as 3 lines & shown on a DLR map in 3 related colours. So I reckon a tube map should do the same. BTW: I'd also show the Northern line as 2 related lines (Charing X & City)...
There is something to be said to marking on the map the route of each service in a different colour. At least on the DLR system itself, if not on the underground maps.The ptb should certainly look at that for the overground. The nearest similar system I can think of is Newcastle Metro, which uses Green and yellow to mark the two routes, Sunderland to Airport in Green and South Shields to St James in Yellow which share track from Pelaw to South Gosforth.
What amazes me is how the Northern line branches in the middle; Londoners must be careful to get on the right train if they are bound for central London. Anyway, if Tower Gateway is shut, the DLR will be simple enough to allow the status quo to continue. The TfL map is complicated enough now. In Los Angles, Metro has decided to make the LRT line "Line A" and name its subway lines "Lines B and D," even though the subways already carry more people than comparable LRT lines. I'm sure tourists will be surprised to find themselves boarding a trolley when using the prestigious "Line A" running from Long Beach to Azusa (about 52 miles).
You know what would make me very happy? A daily mail with a random “I would likte to thank…. You make are my X to my Y” quote of Jago. Other me: you’re a IT developer, just code it man. Me: I would! If I only had the time to write them all down. Hes output is of the scale !
An Idea I have thought of could be to expand use of the different shades of Turquoise on the tube map, to identify where the routes run, but cruicially, have them as thinner lines overall so you don't get super thick lines on triple interlined sections. Just an idea though, replies would be welcome as to how colours could be done.
DLR can be kept as a brand, but for individual lines, TfL is better off using the different shades of blue it has internally with simple letters. I say letters and not numbers because the DLR is smaller with less lines and less combinations available. Numbers should be reserved for the Underground for the higher complexity. I'm basing this off the DLR map from TfL: A - Lewisham to Stratford B - Lewisham to Bank C - Woolwich Arsenal to Stratford International D - Woolwich Arsenal to Bank E - Beckton to Tower Gateway
Great video very succinctly making the point. If you are on the DLR and end up on the wrong train all you have to do is get (back) to Poplar and change trains. If you are on the wrong Overground it's a lot more complicated, you can't just head back to Willesden Junction and change for the right branch if you get on the Watford line but want somewhere like Southbury.
Interesting thing is that there was always a DLR line under development or actual construction from the mid-80s through til the Stratford International extension opened in 2011. That's a 25-year construction project. It's now 12 years since anything happened and it could be abother ten years before a modest - albeit under the Thames - section opens to Thamesmead and that may not happen.
I tend to think of the DLR as having three lines, but a different three from how they map them: (1) the main line, to the City; (2) the line via Bow Church; and (3) the line via West Ham. Which branch they go down from there is adequately indicated by the terminus.
The Sir Boris Johnston way name them after the rich and famous who never actually use public transport.The Sir Jacob Rees Mogg Line might be a good start.
I’ve no particular opinion with regard to showing different colours for the DLR itself, but speaking as a colourblind tourist from “oop North”, I think it would help if the colour(s) used for the DLR on the standard tube map was/were differentiated further from the one used by the Elizabeth Line, and if the colour used on the Overground was a bit more distinct from the one used for the trams. Perhaps rather than using hollow spaces, they could use an interior pattern, a bit like they have with the Thameslink lines - Thin stripes, blocks, combinations of blocks and stripes, cross-hatching, dots, etc. Thankfully, I’ve used the map enough to understand the difference between the lines, but there are bound to be people more badly afflicted than I am who would be more confused.
Instead of lines you could have routes, which are defined by their two termini and the route followed in between. That gets around the problem of having to decide what is and what isn't a line and also allows any passengers to be certain of where their train is going. Route IDs (name / number / letters etc) can be made unique, whereas lines generally cannot.
I use the Lewisham station a lot. I have not seen a Stratford bound train from there for a very long time. Advice is to change at Canary Wharf. Easy enough but don't bother waiting for a Stratford train at Lewisham.
In classic German fashion I would propose to just call them D1-D5. The branding wouldn’t need to change but you’d have something easily identifiable for people to distinguish whether or not their getting on the right train. But it seems to be rather uncommon in the English speaking world for some reason.
A possible compromise solution for the DLR and Overground would be to keep each as one line, but give each "line within the line" a number. That number could be displayed on the TfL map at each terminus of each line. For example, DLR Line 1 could go between Tower Gateway and Beckton. Overground Line 1 could go between Richmond and Stratford.
I started using the DLR as soon as it opened. From school to work and never had a problem with the lines being how they are, but for someone who doesn't use them frequently having a colour coded map would maybe be better.
Jago, I think you nailed it. It's a relatively small system geographically, and they have DLR specific maps that differentiate between the lines. I rode it when I visited London and did not have any trouble navigating and figuring out where I needed to switch trains. I think the current tube map is probably about the best you can expect, but on any DLR or Overground specific maps, then each line should be differentiated with distinct colors. The current map already has so many colors, I don't know how one can reasonably add even more without creating a visual mess.
I think with Tower Gateway closing it would give an oppurtunity to name the line going to Bank. I would merge all Bank trains into 1 line and call it the City Line so people know this is the line I need to take to get to the City. Woolwich to Stratford International line could be called the Olympic Line in honour of the 2012 Olympics. Lewisham to Stratford line I have no clue what I would call it.
As a Johnny Foreigner (I’m from Wales, so that should be Dewi Foreigner) who has occasionally ventured into the DLR, I feel it should maintain its identity and have separate colours. That can be achieved by keeping the teal border and having different colour infills.
Maybe the individual DLR lines can stay the various shades of teal/turquoise/cyan/aqua and TfL could change the colour of the Waterloo and City to something like lilac? I don't think it'd confuse the colour blind too much and the Victoria Line is a different enough shade and separate enough to not need changing? Look how they manage on the London Connections map.
When I started watching this video, I thought you would suggest names for each line based on the history of the places each travel through. They could be named of the groups of workers who lost their jobs in each area: sailors, stevedores, printers, armourers and so on.
My proposed solution would be to treat it like the Northern line in Central London: Have it be all one line, but also have each train be via X station to indicate precisely how it’s getting to the other end. Example: DLR to Stratford via Bow Church to distinguish it from those going the other way via Canning Town. Or simply do away with the idea of having stations only served by trains coming a particular way and replace it instead with a system such that any journey between any two points on the DLR network can be completed on a single train. All it’d need is the building of a few small extra curves at Blackwall and Royal Victoria to let those corners be traversable in both directions.
I feel like the DLR lines should be separated but still keep their common brand. Keep the same teal for all of them but indicate which services terminates where by numbers or names at the termini
The first time I went to the East of London and came across the DLR in about 2010 I think it absolutely fascinated me. The thing that I loved was that there were free audio guides you could listen to on your journey! It was like getting a free tour - I don’t know if they are still an active thing or are known by regular users, it certainly felt like a free cheat 😂
Use colour names, after a word, say DLR Green; DLR Red; etc. They would work by the first letter of the west terminus, so, with the approximate colour indicating the other terminus. Tower to Beckton - Teal Bank to Woolwich - Blue Bank to Lewisham - Brown Stratford to Lewisham - Sage (a sort of soft brown) International to Woolwich - Sky (a light blue) International to Beckton - Slate (a sort of dark teal)
Serious idea: I think they should make the bakerloo line go form Lewisham to Bromley in a loop form Lewisham calling at a station near Lewisham Hospital named after said hospital, catford market which would be near said market, bellingham junction near the “high street” or where the current station is,a downham station in downham (on old bromley road), a new station called Bromley road near a hotel and a road called you guessed it Bromley road, Bromley north with a interchange to Bromley north (how cool, I could have never guessed), Bromley south with a interchange to Bromley south (wow you read these, here’s a sticker⭐️), Bromley forest near you guessed it near Bromley forest (well done at guessing good), hayes (under the current station) then take the line over to north of clock house where it goes underground and stops at new Beckenham (connects with the current station 🤯) then a new station at bell green (with a redevelopment with vic style shopping area with houses for 2 floors above the shop flore) and then back to Bellingham junction (I said this was a loop) and a new line (probably call the Aldwych line or ald for short) going around the loop but going off at Bromley north going north coping the Bromley north line (the Bromley north line could become a heritage railway) then going along the stops the north line goes to entil Grove Park where it goes along to eltham then Mottingham then Lewisham and form there coping the dlr till bank where it copy’s the central to St Paul’s before it goes to Blackfriars then go to Aldwych then Holborn
I 'enjoyed' your suggestion that Canning Town is not a straightforward interchange. Those designing the signs were apparently under the belief that it is compulsory for people changing from the Jubilee Line to travel to City Airport to become utterly confused and end up on the wrong platform.
Should the northern line be separated into two lines? With the new Battersea station, there is effectively two lines, crossing each other at Kensington and Camden (+Euston, but they're on separate tracks). If anything, the Northern line crosses the Victoria line just as much. The only downside would mean having to change at Camden for the different north branches, but it would also make it less confusing if they were completely separated
Thinking about it now I wonder if having the lines numbered would make more sense. For example, the various German U-Bahn all go under the U-Bahn, almost like a brand, yet all the different lines sprawl out in different directions and only use parts of the same track in various places. Also more similarly, they are both light rail systems. A but like the underground and the overground, use the DLR name as the brand but number the lines like the U-Bahns or busses. You could even have a letter like the U-Bahn, either D for DLR or L for light rail, for example D1, D2, etc… IDK, maybe I’m just getting overexcited about a German network I’ve never been able to visit? 😂
Yes, get rid of Tower Gateway. Add London City Airport to the Elizabeth Line. Extend the Elizabeth Line in double-track from LHR T5 to Staines and back to LHR T1,2,3 (about 10 km).. Only one new station - Staines from where the tunnelling can be managed. The LHR T4 branch would remain, but not greatly used. Trains would be sent both directions around the new loop. In cutting out T4, the trains run in a continuous loop. In providing a connection to South West lines, more airport traffic is switched to rail. The stations are the expensive part of rail tunnels. LHR T4 could be served by a shuttle service and the Piccadilly Line. A bit messy, but the advantage of the Staines connection to SW England is worth it.
There are definitely people out there who want to split it in two. Morden to High Barnet should be the City and South London Line or Southern Line, and Edgware to Batersea Power Station Station should be the Hampstead Line.
Now you need to make another video about showing the tram routes as different lines even though that's basically just saying the same stuff as this vid.
This is a German perspective and lines often are a single service with its own ID (regular branches are thus not very common, lines don't carry official names) unlike what can be called as "metalines" as it's typical for London. My answer: The DLR is is its own network (or "metaline") the same way the trams, Central Line or Northern Line are their own lines so if individual DLR services should be marked as such then so should do the other lines. The point about the Overground also makes sense to me as the individual metalines are only unified by using the same rolling stock and thus are the same metalines the same the individual subsurface Underground lines are the same lines (not to mention the metalines are kept separate anyway). This, and the tube map is cluttered with various TfL rail services anyway, it's easier to use separate maps for each individual line to denote their services, really.
@@JP_TaVeryMuch you say that as if I was a moron but I live in a place where rail lines have either numbers of letters, not lengthy names. also trams are a kind of light rail so it makes perfect sense to number services
Using the DLR whenever I'm in London I really enjoyed the video. But may I suggest to leave the names as the are? The new trains with their new colour scheme will be exciting enough.
I'd honestly say a good idea would be line numbers. Like D1-5 so the City to Lewisham would be D1, City to Beckton service could be D3 for example, City to Woolwich Arsenal D2, and so on and so forth. Would make it easier to distinguish the different service while ebing easy to remember without being too intrusive
Wouldn't that collide with the naming scheme for busses? We use the D7 frequently when I'm in London, and I know there are other Dn (3, 5, 6, 8) bus lines as well. Just a thought...
Underground trains and buses the same livery. Although the Docklands could at least say last station, like Woolwich and Lewisham. It may help actually be a good idea - please suggest it to TfL.
“ on the tube map “ and splitting the lines are not the same thing. The tube map is to me an archaic artefact that I have never actually held in my hand and is chiefly discussed on London Rail Channels. When I need to navigate London I use a mapping app with a decent public transport function. And here we come to the nub, as a traveler who comes to London irregularly, the DLR , Underground, Cross-rail, Overground branding is pretty close to just another one of those “ oh the English are being quaint “ things. I need to know what station is closest to where I am , what station is closest to my destination what lines those stations are on and what the interchange stations are. Having unnamed lines that require me to study multiple destination boards, because tradition, and making me possibly miss a train is strange. Name the DLR lines . dLR1 , DLR2 & DLR3. Put that information up at the stations. And in the apps. What happens on the tube map can be relegated to history.
@@chrisamies2141 The ones on the walls of the Tube stations are more likely to be Tube and Rail Maps than Tube maps. They do put Tube maps on the wall, but only when they have more than one space for a map in that part of the station, and mostly so they can justify selling the souvenir stuff.
The DLR routes absolutely should not have numbers - they aren't buses/trams and, unlike the difference between DLR/LU/LO/EL rail, the bus vs train distinction does matter to the traveller. In fact, precisely because there's (almost) no difference for the user between the different roundel-rail systems, they all should have line names to highlight that shared network, even if there's different legal and operational things that mean teal, red, orange and purple roundels. (Likewise the trams need to be removed from Tube/Rail maps)
@@chrisamies2141 have you tried standing in a tube station ? You will be run down by train passengers, they are in my experience overcrowded and not conducive to finding and studying detailed route information
@@sihollett how about the Charles, Camila and Dianna lines then ? Any future DLR lines could work their way through the Royal Family in order of Succession plus spouses.
Maintain the DLR Identity, but name the lines DLR-1, DLR-2, DLR-3, and use the similar (but different) colours used on the DLR maps on the main map - also use these on the announcement boards and on train. Simples.
Pardon my foreignness ... but is the DLR considered part of the Underground for fare purposes? Or do passengers pay another fare at an interchange between systems?
All public transport in London is covered by the Oyster ticket scheme. If you use a credit card as your ticket, there's a daily cap. Just tap in and tap out.
@@JP_TaVeryMuch OK, so if (for fare purposes) DLR is the Underground is the DLR ... then they should all be rendered on the same map ... and given that the Underground lines have different colo(u)rs for different services over the same line, then the DLR should do the same.
@@JP_TaVeryMuch Isn't DLR over 35 years old? If yes, then not likely to go away, I suspect. But from a user's point of view, a user who (oddly) doesn't care one whit about rolling stock, third rails, Charles T Yerkes, 4th rails, or catenary, DLR should be treated like every other line in the system, meaning each service should have a different color (since that's how the other services are rendered). An agency would have quite a bit of latitude on that point, I would think, if the connecting service was not "part of the network" and another fare would need to be paid - for the user, it would be obvious (because of the fare) that it was a different system and that they'd need to re-orient themselves once they'd entered.
Maybe. Just Maybe. Call it the Kit-Kat line, 'cos it wrapped in red (livery). There is a subtext to your DLR vids: Towie G ain't gonna be around for much longer, in its late 80s style.
Being someone who lives on the eastern end of the Central Line, I always felt it was a shame the DLR didn't go one stop further past Tower Gateway through to Fenchurch St. It would have given a direct track connection from Stratford to Fenchurch St, (yes a DLR branch change would be needed), but I think it would have been a very useful connection.
I 'unno, I got no skin in the game. 'If the regulars need it' is my cop out answer but there is way more to it. They might be all 'DO IT!' and then it doesn't go how they envisioned it or something.
Possibly a controversial opinion but I think this area of London has been somewhat let down by poor planning. Tower Gateway should be scrapped and bank trains should be extended to Waterloo, replacing the Waterloo and City line. Fenchurch Street should also have been closed and the c2c network should have been incorporated into CrossRail rather than just trains out of Liverpool Street to Shenfield. Shenfield trains would have been better as part of an expanded Overground operation out of Liverpool Street.
canning town is very complicated, it needs uprgrading they should separate the lines using the shade of blue between the two outlines. the new dlr stock should have colour changing displays they need to make an updated dlr map, its very confusing. the overground is much more vast so it deffo should have its own colours and names
I always thought of that when I was musing the idea of 'humanising' the lines. I think it started when I started calling the Jubilee Line Extension 'Julie' for JLE.
The only truly English way of doing this is to have the names originate organically, haphazardly and make absolutely no analytical sense: they just happen, and later, it makes no sense as to why one perfectly applicable name was not used but a baffling one was instead chosen.
Like calling the most southerly line on the Underground network the Northern Line 🤪
@@katrinabrycemake the line to Beckton the west London light railway
If this is the case I anticipate at least one of them with the name LineyMcLineFace.
You know it will happen.
My brother and I were once thinking of English words that could be names of small English villages, but (probably) aren't. I came up with Mildew and Crapping.
I see what your saying. From this day forth the DLR shall be known as the Metroland lines.
Whoa, the “you are the x to my y” came early this time!
I agree. I don’t think the DLR is really sprawling enough to warrant naming. Having all 3 shades of teal on the main TfL map would be nice though.
I would personally categorise the dark one as a (dark) teal, the medium one as turquoise, and the light one as seafoam green.
Why not use Pantone numbers ? Then there would be no arguing.
And leave each of the services unnamed?
@@hb1338 don’t they actually get updated every couple of years?
Besides, Pantone values are more about ensuring brands have consistent colours, sidestepping monitor and printer calibration which might affect the RGB values you pick. I’m sure TfL specifies Pantone values to unify their printing and signage, but they don’t help a colour theorist to categorise their aesthetic function!
Teal implies a darker shade with full hue saturation (though not necessarily as dark as on the DLR map), turquoise implies bright and vibrant (full saturation, full brightness), while seafoam green implies a pastel (full brightness but little saturation). It was even more important to think like that when mixing one’s own paints from basic colours, but it’s still a necessary framework to easily navigate the colour wheel in Photoshop/Illustrator.
While all these names, though they may seem arbitrary to a layperson, have functional meanings in colour theory. They help to navigate the brightness/shade functionality, for instance painting a light grey object versus a dark grey object under a blueish light versus under a reddish light. It’s also useful for ensuring a large set of colours don’t clash with each other (with complementary colours you generally want one dark and one light, eg ruby with navy, or burgundy with sky blue).
But _if_ you already go all the way and colour the lines, they should be visibly distinct. You should be able to see at a glance, what colour it is without comparing. Also, for ease of accessibility, the colours should be fairly distinct.
@@hb1338Pantone is copyrighted
The trouble is that it's very difficult to see what should and should not be separate lines. For example, it you depend on interoperability and ease of changing lines, you could count the Circle, District, Met, and H&C as one line, but if you look at destinations and termini, there are arguments to split up the Northern Line and District Line into smaller lines.
There is an additional problem with maps and ease of use. Any map that includes every service detail will be difficult to use for general information, and any map that is easy to look at will not show some of the information. There's also a limited number of colour/line type combinations before they become too similar to distinguish.
The Hammersmith & City Line used to be a branch of the Metropolitan Line before it got its own identity.
My guide would be, if you have to change trains to one going in the opposite direction, it is OK to have them the same colour, because it is obvious from the map anyway. But if you have to change trains to one going in the same direction (eg Finchley Road to Aldgate East), then they should be different colours to make it clear there are no direct services.
@@katrinabryce Your Finchley Road to Aldgate East is functionally identical to Tower Gateway to Canary Wharf.
I find it very confusing that the District line is considered one line. Waiting at Bayswater for a train to Richmond, there was absolutelty no indication that it would never come. Not on the guidebook tube map, not on the maps at the station, nowhere.
It's split into two on the line diagrams inside the trains although both sections include Kensington Olympia.
Why such little love for Tower Gateway? It's only a couple of minutes stroll from Tower Hill and the District Line and an opportunity for a bit of fresh air and a chance to admire one of the finest remaining pieces of the old Roman city wall.
It's a shame that the descent to the bank tubes is too steep to accommodate a replacement station on the route into bank. With any future redevelopment of Fenchurch Street it could have been linked into an eastern entrance.
Agreed the DLR is really a single line with branches. However, I'd argue that denoting each service by a more distinctive colour than the varieties of blue would be helpful.
I have to disagree with your comment that the DLR is really a single line with branches. It is a network of differnet lines, and each line should have it own colour, to make it easier for people who don't know the network. To get around, and find their way in Startford and Canning Town stations, to get to the right DLR line.
@AtoZbyLocalBus if that is the case then we need to do the same for the District, Metropolitan, Central, Northern and Picadilly lines as well.
The DLR has a core section and a major hub station (alright 2 with the Stratford International bit), if you get the wrong train you can change and go back to that core or hub and try again.
On the Overground network, I have to know which part my station is on as there is no core or hub. I can't just change at Willesden Junction for a different branch if I got on a Watford DC line and realise I actually wanted the service to South Tottenham.
As a traveller it usually bugs me when the lines are not easily distinguishable. I'm on a train, and all of a sudden it branches off to some place I did not intend to go to. If it branches, it is not the same line. It might be, traditionally, but that is a relic from when there were a bunch of different companies, all with their separate networks.
@@quintuscrinis8032 the DLR has 3 major hub stations or 4 if you are counting Stratford station. The 3 major hub stations are Canary Wharf, Poplar & Canning Town. These 3 stations are not beside each other, but Poplar & Canary Wharf are close to each other. But only the line from Stratford calls at both of these stations. The Bank to Woolwich Aresanel and Tower Gateway to Backton call at both Poplar & Canning Town stations. The trains from Startford International to Woolwich Aresanel call at Canning Town, and not the other 2 hub stations. So that is why I say it is a network, as there is no core section where all the services run.
In middle Europe as well as Japan this is how it's done: We don't seperate by the track routes - but by services, whcih often intermix on the same tracks with each other.
I wonder how many lines could get names similar to the Bakerloo, with station name combinations?
And the Goblin
Amergate. Amerbake.
They should call them after Eastender characters lol
With Calamity Khan the Fuhrer in charge better to name them after famous clowns!
I’d take the Peggy line 😂
The Barry line. It’s surprisingly good at singing but is ashamed of itself.
Sharmilla line
@@AcornElectronEnjoy Cardiff!
Since we have the Bakerloo, maybe the lines could be called Becktobank (or Becktogate), Mudpudding and Wooliham.
The thing I've never understood about the DLR is where the key is. Clearly the trains need periodic winding up, but when is it done and by whom?!
Mr Hazzard yet another terrific video with the added repertoire that makes the videos so unique. Well done mate and thank you for taking the time to upload all of your videos. Stay safe and have a great weekend David 👍👍
Word of the Day: ‘Bluey-Green-Greeny-Blue’
The DLR is run as 3 lines & shown on a DLR map in 3 related colours. So I reckon a tube map should do the same.
BTW: I'd also show the Northern line as 2 related lines (Charing X & City)...
There is something to be said to marking on the map the route of each service in a different colour. At least on the DLR system itself, if not on the underground maps.The ptb should certainly look at that for the overground.
The nearest similar system I can think of is Newcastle Metro, which uses Green and yellow to mark the two routes, Sunderland to Airport in Green and South Shields to St James in Yellow which share track from Pelaw to South Gosforth.
What amazes me is how the Northern line branches in the middle; Londoners must be careful to get on the right train if they are bound for central London. Anyway, if Tower Gateway is shut, the DLR will be simple enough to allow the status quo to continue. The TfL map is complicated enough now.
In Los Angles, Metro has decided to make the LRT line "Line A" and name its subway lines "Lines B and D," even though the subways already carry more people than comparable LRT lines. I'm sure tourists will be surprised to find themselves boarding a trolley when using the prestigious "Line A" running from Long Beach to Azusa (about 52 miles).
You know what would make me very happy?
A daily mail with a random “I would likte to thank…. You make are my X to my Y” quote of Jago.
Other me: you’re a IT developer, just code it man.
Me: I would! If I only had the time to write them all down. Hes output is of the scale !
An Idea I have thought of could be to expand use of the different shades of Turquoise on the tube map, to identify where the routes run, but cruicially, have them as thinner lines overall so you don't get super thick lines on triple interlined sections. Just an idea though, replies would be welcome as to how colours could be done.
I think line numbers, rather than names, would be a better idea here.
DLR can be kept as a brand, but for individual lines, TfL is better off using the different shades of blue it has internally with simple letters. I say letters and not numbers because the DLR is smaller with less lines and less combinations available. Numbers should be reserved for the Underground for the higher complexity.
I'm basing this off the DLR map from TfL:
A - Lewisham to Stratford
B - Lewisham to Bank
C - Woolwich Arsenal to Stratford International
D - Woolwich Arsenal to Bank
E - Beckton to Tower Gateway
Another simple, but informative and entertaining video.
King Jago 👑
Thank you for creating another great video about the DLR. I hope it gets extended to Thamesmead for everyone who lives in that area.
Keep the DLR as just one, it's a bit like the Northern line being one line, overground has to be changed as they are completely different lines
Great video very succinctly making the point. If you are on the DLR and end up on the wrong train all you have to do is get (back) to Poplar and change trains.
If you are on the wrong Overground it's a lot more complicated, you can't just head back to Willesden Junction and change for the right branch if you get on the Watford line but want somewhere like Southbury.
Remember a lot of the lines share same bitt of track from Bank / Towergateway towards Canary Wharf via Shagwell
I live in Woolwich and a lot of my friends live in Greenwich & Lewisham. The way we think about the dlr is very different
Interesting thing is that there was always a DLR line under development or actual construction from the mid-80s through til the Stratford International extension opened in 2011. That's a 25-year construction project. It's now 12 years since anything happened and it could be abother ten years before a modest - albeit under the Thames - section opens to Thamesmead and that may not happen.
I tend to think of the DLR as having three lines, but a different three from how they map them: (1) the main line, to the City; (2) the line via Bow Church; and (3) the line via West Ham. Which branch they go down from there is adequately indicated by the terminus.
I've always found the DLR lines confusing, I've even been given the wrong advice by staff on where to interchange; it's high-time it was identified.
The Sir Boris Johnston way name them after the rich and famous who never actually use public transport.The Sir Jacob Rees Mogg Line might be a good start.
I love the DLR. I think it’s the best way to travel in London and wish there was more of it - and was more appreciated!
I’ve no particular opinion with regard to showing different colours for the DLR itself, but speaking as a colourblind tourist from “oop North”, I think it would help if the colour(s) used for the DLR on the standard tube map was/were differentiated further from the one used by the Elizabeth Line, and if the colour used on the Overground was a bit more distinct from the one used for the trams. Perhaps rather than using hollow spaces, they could use an interior pattern, a bit like they have with the Thameslink lines - Thin stripes, blocks, combinations of blocks and stripes, cross-hatching, dots, etc. Thankfully, I’ve used the map enough to understand the difference between the lines, but there are bound to be people more badly afflicted than I am who would be more confused.
Instead of lines you could have routes, which are defined by their two termini and the route followed in between. That gets around the problem of having to decide what is and what isn't a line and also allows any passengers to be certain of where their train is going. Route IDs (name / number / letters etc) can be made unique, whereas lines generally cannot.
I like seeing the different maps.
I use the Lewisham station a lot. I have not seen a Stratford bound train from there for a very long time. Advice is to change at Canary Wharf. Easy enough but don't bother waiting for a Stratford train at Lewisham.
I’d just label each route with letters
I think that's the current system, each of the routes is indicated by the letters D, L & R.
😁
@@stephenlee5929 there’s 5 routes total. I’d label something like
A: Bank-Lewisham
B: Bank-Woolwich
C: Tower Gateway-Beckton
D: Stratford-Canary wharf(Lewisham)
E:Stratford international-Woolwich
@@JP_TaVeryMuchI don’t have a sense of humor
If they are getting named, they'd better be named as soon as possible to lower the cost (or as soon as a big extension happens)
In classic German fashion I would propose to just call them D1-D5. The branding wouldn’t need to change but you’d have something easily identifiable for people to distinguish whether or not their getting on the right train. But it seems to be rather uncommon in the English speaking world for some reason.
I agree, still one colour for the entire DLR but on the map, a number in a box (1 to 5).
A possible compromise solution for the DLR and Overground would be to keep each as one line, but give each "line within the line" a number. That number could be displayed on the TfL map at each terminus of each line. For example, DLR Line 1 could go between Tower Gateway and Beckton. Overground Line 1 could go between Richmond and Stratford.
I started using the DLR as soon as it opened. From school to work and never had a problem with the lines being how they are, but for someone who doesn't use them frequently having a colour coded map would maybe be better.
the Ronnie Kray line and the Reggie Kray line. The Mad Frankie Frazer Line.
I'm actually not that interested in railway, but somehow this British gentleman makes the videos interesting to watch. Great pinch of humour, too
Jago, I think you nailed it. It's a relatively small system geographically, and they have DLR specific maps that differentiate between the lines. I rode it when I visited London and did not have any trouble navigating and figuring out where I needed to switch trains.
I think the current tube map is probably about the best you can expect, but on any DLR or Overground specific maps, then each line should be differentiated with distinct colors. The current map already has so many colors, I don't know how one can reasonably add even more without creating a visual mess.
I think with Tower Gateway closing it would give an oppurtunity to name the line going to Bank. I would merge all Bank trains into 1 line and call it the City Line so people know this is the line I need to take to get to the City. Woolwich to Stratford International line could be called the Olympic Line in honour of the 2012 Olympics. Lewisham to Stratford line I have no clue what I would call it.
The Meridian Line?
@@davepoole9520 Yeah that would be a good name as it does pretty much follow it.
As a Johnny Foreigner (I’m from Wales, so that should be Dewi Foreigner) who has occasionally ventured into the DLR, I feel it should maintain its identity and have separate colours. That can be achieved by keeping the teal border and having different colour infills.
The whole railway should be renamed the Mudchute Lines. That's how to attract tourists and maybe commuters.
Maybe the individual DLR lines can stay the various shades of teal/turquoise/cyan/aqua and TfL could change the colour of the Waterloo and City to something like lilac? I don't think it'd confuse the colour blind too much and the Victoria Line is a different enough shade and separate enough to not need changing? Look how they manage on the London Connections map.
Great video Jago
When I started watching this video, I thought you would suggest names for each line based on the history of the places each travel through. They could be named of the groups of workers who lost their jobs in each area: sailors, stevedores, printers, armourers and so on.
A great Video on my Birthday 🎂. Thanks Jago 😊
Happy birthday!
My proposed solution would be to treat it like the Northern line in Central London: Have it be all one line, but also have each train be via X station to indicate precisely how it’s getting to the other end.
Example: DLR to Stratford via Bow Church to distinguish it from those going the other way via Canning Town.
Or simply do away with the idea of having stations only served by trains coming a particular way and replace it instead with a system such that any journey between any two points on the DLR network can be completed on a single train. All it’d need is the building of a few small extra curves at Blackwall and Royal Victoria to let those corners be traversable in both directions.
(Side note: It’s always rather disconcerting seeing maps like that at 1:48 that invert the locations of Bank and TG for no apparent reason.)
I feel like the DLR lines should be separated but still keep their common brand. Keep the same teal for all of them but indicate which services terminates where by numbers or names at the termini
Who's watching after the Overground lines have been given individual names and colours ⬇️
The first time I went to the East of London and came across the DLR in about 2010 I think it absolutely fascinated me. The thing that I loved was that there were free audio guides you could listen to on your journey! It was like getting a free tour - I don’t know if they are still an active thing or are known by regular users, it certainly felt like a free cheat 😂
Use colour names, after a word, say DLR Green; DLR Red; etc. They would work by the first letter of the west terminus, so, with the approximate colour indicating the other terminus.
Tower to Beckton - Teal
Bank to Woolwich - Blue
Bank to Lewisham - Brown
Stratford to Lewisham - Sage (a sort of soft brown)
International to Woolwich - Sky (a light blue)
International to Beckton - Slate (a sort of dark teal)
Serious idea:
I think they should make the bakerloo line go form Lewisham to Bromley in a loop form Lewisham calling at a station near Lewisham Hospital named after said hospital, catford market which would be near said market, bellingham junction near the “high street” or where the current station is,a downham station in downham (on old bromley road), a new station called Bromley road near a hotel and a road called you guessed it Bromley road, Bromley north with a interchange to Bromley north (how cool, I could have never guessed), Bromley south with a interchange to Bromley south (wow you read these, here’s a sticker⭐️), Bromley forest near you guessed it near Bromley forest (well done at guessing good), hayes (under the current station) then take the line over to north of clock house where it goes underground and stops at new Beckenham (connects with the current station 🤯) then a new station at bell green (with a redevelopment with vic style shopping area with houses for 2 floors above the shop flore) and then back to Bellingham junction (I said this was a loop) and a new line (probably call the Aldwych line or ald for short) going around the loop but going off at Bromley north going north coping the Bromley north line (the Bromley north line could become a heritage railway) then going along the stops the north line goes to entil Grove Park where it goes along to eltham then Mottingham then Lewisham and form there coping the dlr till bank where it copy’s the central to St Paul’s before it goes to Blackfriars then go to Aldwych then Holborn
I 'enjoyed' your suggestion that Canning Town is not a straightforward interchange. Those designing the signs were apparently under the belief that it is compulsory for people changing from the Jubilee Line to travel to City Airport to become utterly confused and end up on the wrong platform.
Should the northern line be separated into two lines? With the new Battersea station, there is effectively two lines, crossing each other at Kensington and Camden (+Euston, but they're on separate tracks). If anything, the Northern line crosses the Victoria line just as much. The only downside would mean having to change at Camden for the different north branches, but it would also make it less confusing if they were completely separated
Thinking about it now I wonder if having the lines numbered would make more sense. For example, the various German U-Bahn all go under the U-Bahn, almost like a brand, yet all the different lines sprawl out in different directions and only use parts of the same track in various places. Also more similarly, they are both light rail systems. A but like the underground and the overground, use the DLR name as the brand but number the lines like the U-Bahns or busses. You could even have a letter like the U-Bahn, either D for DLR or L for light rail, for example D1, D2, etc… IDK, maybe I’m just getting overexcited about a German network I’ve never been able to visit? 😂
Yes, get rid of Tower Gateway. Add London City Airport to the Elizabeth Line. Extend the Elizabeth Line in double-track from LHR T5 to Staines and back to LHR T1,2,3 (about 10 km).. Only one new station - Staines from where the tunnelling can be managed. The LHR T4 branch would remain, but not greatly used. Trains would be sent both directions around the new loop. In cutting out T4, the trains run in a continuous loop. In providing a connection to South West lines, more airport traffic is switched to rail. The stations are the expensive part of rail tunnels. LHR T4 could be served by a shuttle service and the Piccadilly Line. A bit messy, but the advantage of the Staines connection to SW England is worth it.
Started out very basic and has become more complex over time. - story of my life mate
Why are the Central, District, Metropolitan and H&C lines not in the overground network?
The DLR is only slightly more complicated than the Northern Line and there's absolutely no clamour to give different identities to parts of that line.
There are definitely people out there who want to split it in two. Morden to High Barnet should be the City and South London Line or Southern Line, and Edgware to Batersea Power Station Station should be the Hampstead Line.
Now you need to make another video about showing the tram routes as different lines even though that's basically just saying the same stuff as this vid.
used to use to use the dlr when i lived in london,not now its a brilliant system should be extened further out,
It’d be a bit unnecessary, but a good idea nonetheless
This is a German perspective and lines often are a single service with its own ID (regular branches are thus not very common, lines don't carry official names) unlike what can be called as "metalines" as it's typical for London.
My answer: The DLR is is its own network (or "metaline") the same way the trams, Central Line or Northern Line are their own lines so if individual DLR services should be marked as such then so should do the other lines. The point about the Overground also makes sense to me as the individual metalines are only unified by using the same rolling stock and thus are the same metalines the same the individual subsurface Underground lines are the same lines (not to mention the metalines are kept separate anyway).
This, and the tube map is cluttered with various TfL rail services anyway, it's easier to use separate maps for each individual line to denote their services, really.
i think the DLR services should have numbers, for the same reason that tramlink services have numbers. just makes it clearer for passengers
I hadn't realised the Trams had different numbers, oops
@@JP_TaVeryMuch you say that as if I was a moron but I live in a place where rail lines have either numbers of letters, not lengthy names. also trams are a kind of light rail so it makes perfect sense to number services
The only normal metro line with a normal one third contact rail 🤗
You wouldn't have enough colours to incorporate it as separate lines into the tube map.
Two great line names on railway are 'Hope Valley' and 'GOBLin' the rest are just A to Z places
Too late for the Underground lines to be named after Wombles, but we could use them for the Overground lines
Using the DLR whenever I'm in London I really enjoyed the video. But may I suggest to leave the names as the are? The new trains with their new colour scheme will be exciting enough.
I'd honestly say a good idea would be line numbers. Like D1-5 so the City to Lewisham would be D1, City to Beckton service could be D3 for example, City to Woolwich Arsenal D2, and so on and so forth. Would make it easier to distinguish the different service while ebing easy to remember without being too intrusive
Wouldn't that collide with the naming scheme for busses? We use the D7 frequently when I'm in London, and I know there are other Dn (3, 5, 6, 8) bus lines as well. Just a thought...
The trouble is that there are only so many colours.
As all successful politicians (don't) do: "when in doubt - do nowt". On the other hand...
Underground trains and buses the same livery. Although the Docklands could at least say last station, like Woolwich and Lewisham. It may help actually be a good idea - please suggest it to TfL.
“ on the tube map “ and splitting the lines are not the same thing. The tube map is to me an archaic artefact that I have never actually held in my hand and is chiefly discussed on London Rail Channels. When I need to navigate London I use a mapping app with a decent public transport function.
And here we come to the nub, as a traveler who comes to London irregularly, the DLR , Underground, Cross-rail, Overground branding is pretty close to just another one of those “ oh the English are being quaint “ things. I need to know what station is closest to where I am , what station is closest to my destination what lines those stations are on and what the interchange stations are. Having unnamed lines that require me to study multiple destination boards, because tradition, and making me possibly miss a train is strange. Name the DLR lines . dLR1 , DLR2 & DLR3. Put that information up at the stations. And in the apps. What happens on the tube map can be relegated to history.
Do you never consult the maps on the wall of a Tube station?
@@chrisamies2141 The ones on the walls of the Tube stations are more likely to be Tube and Rail Maps than Tube maps. They do put Tube maps on the wall, but only when they have more than one space for a map in that part of the station, and mostly so they can justify selling the souvenir stuff.
The DLR routes absolutely should not have numbers - they aren't buses/trams and, unlike the difference between DLR/LU/LO/EL rail, the bus vs train distinction does matter to the traveller.
In fact, precisely because there's (almost) no difference for the user between the different roundel-rail systems, they all should have line names to highlight that shared network, even if there's different legal and operational things that mean teal, red, orange and purple roundels. (Likewise the trams need to be removed from Tube/Rail maps)
@@chrisamies2141 have you tried standing in a tube station ? You will be run down by train passengers, they are in my experience overcrowded and not conducive to finding and studying detailed route information
@@sihollett how about the Charles, Camila and Dianna lines then ? Any future DLR lines could work their way through the Royal Family in order of Succession plus spouses.
Maintain the DLR Identity, but name the lines DLR-1, DLR-2, DLR-3, and use the similar (but different) colours used on the DLR maps on the main map - also use these on the announcement boards and on train. Simples.
I live in the US and not super familiar with transit projects in the uk. Wouldn't a DLR connection to an expanded Fenchurch St make sense?
Or should they have a separate map?
Thanks!
And thank you!
Seems to me if I have to transfer trains to get from one station to another, the line colors should indicate that.
Pardon my foreignness ... but is the DLR considered part of the Underground for fare purposes? Or do passengers pay another fare at an interchange between systems?
All public transport in London is covered by the Oyster ticket scheme. If you use a credit card as your ticket, there's a daily cap. Just tap in and tap out.
@@JP_TaVeryMuch OK, so if (for fare purposes) DLR is the Underground is the DLR ... then they should all be rendered on the same map ... and given that the Underground lines have different colo(u)rs for different services over the same line, then the DLR should do the same.
@@JP_TaVeryMuch Isn't DLR over 35 years old? If yes, then not likely to go away, I suspect.
But from a user's point of view, a user who (oddly) doesn't care one whit about rolling stock, third rails, Charles T Yerkes, 4th rails, or catenary, DLR should be treated like every other line in the system, meaning each service should have a different color (since that's how the other services are rendered).
An agency would have quite a bit of latitude on that point, I would think, if the connecting service was not "part of the network" and another fare would need to be paid - for the user, it would be obvious (because of the fare) that it was a different system and that they'd need to re-orient themselves once they'd entered.
Maybe. Just Maybe.
Call it the Kit-Kat line, 'cos it wrapped in red (livery). There is a subtext to your DLR vids: Towie G ain't gonna be around for much longer, in its late 80s style.
Being someone who lives on the eastern end of the Central Line, I always felt it was a shame the DLR didn't go one stop further past Tower Gateway through to Fenchurch St. It would have given a direct track connection from Stratford to Fenchurch St, (yes a DLR branch change would be needed), but I think it would have been a very useful connection.
Great video, what about route numbers, e.g route 1, bank to Lewisham, route two, Beckton to Stratford International?
I 'unno, I got no skin in the game. 'If the regulars need it' is my cop out answer but there is way more to it. They might be all 'DO IT!' and then it doesn't go how they envisioned it or something.
The transport system should employ you to help sort the mess they have out
Cheaper would be to sack all the branding people - they are the source of the confusion.
Possibly a controversial opinion but I think this area of London has been somewhat let down by poor planning. Tower Gateway should be scrapped and bank trains should be extended to Waterloo, replacing the Waterloo and City line.
Fenchurch Street should also have been closed and the c2c network should have been incorporated into CrossRail rather than just trains out of Liverpool Street to Shenfield.
Shenfield trains would have been better as part of an expanded Overground operation out of Liverpool Street.
I reckon TFL just need to give DLR/Overground/Tram their own map
Of course, the other option is to just keep Tower Gateway by renaming it Bank.
Yes!! Yes PLEASE!
canning town is very complicated, it needs uprgrading
they should separate the lines using the shade of blue between the two outlines.
the new dlr stock should have colour changing displays
they need to make an updated dlr map, its very confusing.
the overground is much more vast so it deffo should have its own colours and names
Why is it assumed the DLR would not go into Fenchurch?
Wow.
Rename it ‘Dolores’ 😂
I always thought of that when I was musing the idea of 'humanising' the lines. I think it started when I started calling the Jubilee Line Extension 'Julie' for JLE.
"Delirious"!
From The Independent Brigg Line Rail Group
Thank you!
Instead of naming the lines they could always just number them or do what they do in New York and just use a simple letter.
being from across the water,
I don't have an opinion.
(so I'm just likingandcommenting to appease the algo-deities. carryon!)
4:26 not a bad idea.