People don't realise how difficult it is for horses to win outside there own region,Ambitious Dragon couldn't win in Dubai,Cirrus Des Aigles, couldn't win in 3 attempts in Hong Kong,Excelebration couldn't win in America,Danedream couldn't win in Japan etc etc etc Black Caviar won overseas whilst not at her best,she is a legend
And the greatest in Phar Lap, The Agua Caliente in 1932 on dirt, the world's richest race. 7 races held that day & he broke the track record with a profusely bleeding split hoof. Nearly lame before the race, arrived after an arduous long boat trip, arrived in his winter coat. Missed the start, was last, was 1st by the turn & covered 2 furlongs in just 22 seconds. Both incredible horses.
What a win! Travelled thousands of miles, looked like she had trained off & injured during the race BUT she still won!! If she had been at her best & won it easily this race would probably be long forgotten. As it is it will be remembered forever as one of the most dramatic finishes ever!!
@@amazed66 yes, injured and still managed to beat a 5 x G1 winning Cartier horse of the year, after 11 races in 11 months, travelling to the other side of the world out of season. Unfortunately there are many people who lack the racing faculty to appreciate what she achieved in her career on the basis of her performance in this race despite the fact that she ran 15lbs below her season average.
Black Caviar was the best sprinter I have ever seen. She was injured in this race, having a torn muscle in her quarters and still managed to win. She was an incredible racehorse.
What no-one knew at the time - apart from the bad ride - was that she had an 8 centimetre muscle tear. In fact she had a grade 4 tear of the quadriceps and a grade 2 tear near the rump. I would love to have seen this field race at Flemington with her injury free. They would have been entering the straight as she passed the post. Probably the greatest turf sprinter of all time.
@@philiskirk57 I think it is absolutely important. She ran 15lbs below her season average in this race... the reason it's important is that there are many people who don't know anything about racing who are quick to conclude that this was as good as she could go and that her performance here was merely against better opposition than she had faced previously.
@@philiskirk57 she travelled half way across the world and eased down before the line. How many horses at that level can you ease down before the line and still win.
@@philiskirk57 your grasp of that effort is only matched by your skill with the English language.... it’s “could have” (twice) in case you couldn’t work it out.
Is anyone who commented below aware that she tore her hindquarter muscle in that race yet STILL WON!?! Hence struggling a bit more than her usual flourishing finish. An amazing mare.
+Anna Locke There were a raft of reasons why she didn't perform at her best. Most notably the injury she suffered. I liken the idiots who rate her based on this performance on par with someone claiming that Frankel was over-rated because he only beat Zoffany by a half in the SJP. It's nonsense.
Black Caviar never raced against Soul in Australia. The reason Godolphin sent Soul to Europe was on the basis that he loved heavy going. He actually beat Buffering in a G2 Danehill Stakes on a desperately heavy track. On a good track he was beaten 5L by Star Witness. He was beaten over 7L by BC in the Newmarket eased up... And he got 11lbs from her. The difference between Soul and BC, IMO, is more like 10-12L.
yes and they are all in Gardiner`s head ! There is no chance of her going off at 1/5 if she had any injuries in UK. She would have drifted like a barge in the betting and that did not happen ! Nostalgia is a wonderful emotion but it often borders on delusion !
Wrong ! No horses "love heavy ground" but one horse, the winner, usually copes better on it ! The words ; "mudlark" and "mudlover" imply something that is completely false. There are a million and one stats to back this up ! Suffice to say that horses are most comfortable on good ground ,and the clue is in the word ; good !
Even though this is old, I'd like to say thank you to her connections for letting the world know just how good she was. She proved what winx couldn't. For that I am humbled
Winner of a video, I been tryin to find out about "ascot horse racing england" for a while now, and I think this has helped. Ever heard of - Nenlizaab Horse Ascendancy - (do a search on google ) ? Ive heard some great things about it and my mate got amazing success with it.
@Matthew Bennett Cheers for this, I been tryin to find out about "ascot races uk dress code" for a while now, and I think this has helped. Have you heard people talk about - Nenlizaab Horse Ascendancy - (Have a quick look on google cant remember the place now ) ? Ive heard some unbelievable things about it and my cousin got great results with it.
@Welcome to 1984 1400m to 2000m...Winx. 2400m....Enable. Two completely different horses but both champions. A shame that Winx didn't travel outside home country (Australia) away from the comforts of home.
When you realise the history achieved by Moonlight Cloud in Deauville over the last few weeks it makes you appreciate more the effort a injury hit Black Caviar put in to beat her in this race. Two fantastic racehorses.
Wow! Amazing effort to beat the superstar Moonlight Cloud when not at her best! Just read the book and I'm sure if it was any other horse Peter Moody would not have run. The pressure from the media and public for her to run was enormous. A truly great performance from the champ!
With all the hype could you imagine the scene had Moody pulled her? Hats off for having a go. There are too many ignorant ppl who don't see this win for what it was... a hugely gutsy win against all odds. The Darley Classic run at Flemington on the weekend shows just how much better the Australian sprinters are.
+Tamsin710 - By no stretch of the imagination could Moonlight Cloud ever be described as a superstar and she was a 7f to a mile horse running at a sprint distance anyway and still gave Black Caviar the fright of her life. MC had raced in England twice before this race and was 5th and 7th and on more than one occasion had finished behind Excelebration, who was 0 from 5 against Frankel and MC was also beaten 8 times during a 20 race career. That might count as superstar status in Australia but not elsewhere.
@@amazed66 if you call having a stablemate in a four horse field is how you call your racing you're deluded,if farkall came to Australia he would have been bullied and lucky to win a quality,black caviar would have torn him a new one up to 1400 the winx would have filled it in over that,with no dodgy pacemakers either,thats so suss and rigged.Couldnt he race in an open competitive field of more than 4?overrated hack
But this is the mighty Black Caviar in this race. 80 per cent fit and still wins. Thank god for the Zenyatta' s, Sea The Star' s,Black Caviars, and Frankel' s. We have been spoilt. Its only when this nationalistic self pride starts to dilute itself , that we we will appreciate the brilliant racehorse's from other parts of the world who have set standards the owners of Eclipse those centuries ago could only dream of.
Black Caviar's formlines are still being franked today, years after her retirement with 8yo Aussie Buffering winning his 7th Grp1 in the Al Quoz Sprint in Dubai. They met 3 times, all Grp1 races, and Black Caviar won comprehensively every time. A once in a lifetime freak sprinter.
Putting it from another perspective for those Brits who cant quite draw a line through her form at Ascot..Take over Target, Miss Andretti,Starbanglebanner and Choirs all winners of the King Stand and jubilee, Choirs taking out the double and track record holder are the fastest horse by actual coarse time to race at Ascot If all these horse's met her here over the 6f Black Caviar would still be in the red and win by 3 to 5 lghts IMO and most other Aussie's would agree with this, she stands alone!
2 years from watching it live, i still cannot believe nolen almost blew it. -Didn't need to pump the whip -Hands and heels over the line was sufficient yet he stopped riding.
Several seconds slower, than her even her slowest ever time at that distance, and that includes her runs on slower rated tracks. What does that tell anyone with half a brain....??? She was WAY below her best that day and even way below her previous worst. She was sore. Yet still she won. An amazing effort!
17 lbs below her season average in fact. So injured or not is beside the point. It's enough to say that she was not at her best. Terry's very quick to defend Frankel when you ask him how close he was to being beaten in the SJP, but describes as myth anything that explains Black Caviar's sub-par performance. You can guarantee one thing... he won't have even seen any of her other performances, so is coming from a position of absolute guess-work and rumour, the currency of the bigot and the troll.
to true.. not blamin the jock but if he had let her do her think she would have won it better. but thats racing. not forgettin travel half way across the world.. unreal mare a machine.
Nolan did let her go... with 2 Furlongs to run he is scrubbing her along. He eased up with 50m to go and she geared down much more noticeably than she has previously. Had he kept at her to the line she might have won by a length or so.... but she was out on her feet.
Oh absolutely. Don't misunderstand me, her performance was amazing give all that she had to contend with. Injured during the race... an injury she had suffered previously. But there are a lot of other mitigating circumstances, even taking the travel into account. She was out of season and had contested (and won obviously) 9 Group 1 races in 9 months against far stiffer opposition than she had faced in the UK. She should have been spelling given that she had run her grand final weeks before in the TJ Smith. I have do doubt that had she been racing at home Moody would have given up on the idea of sending her to the races. But with all of the expectation he didn't have that luxury. Despite the fact though that he left her in and she triumphed under difficult circumstances there are morons, who don't know any better, that think this is anywhere near as good as she goes.
. At two, Canford Cliffs won the Coventry Stakes (Gr 2, 6f), beating Xtension by six lengths. At three, he ran third to Makfi in the 2000 Guineas (Gr 1, 1m) at Newmarket before taking out the Irish 2000 Guineas and the St James’s Palace Stakes at Royal Ascot, and then the Sussex Stakes all at Group 1 level over a mile. At four, he won the Lockinge Stakes (Gr 1, 1m) before beating the Champion mare Goldikova in the Queen Anne Stakes (
+WGT Lizard69 They both raced over 7F. Regardless, modern racing's use of ratings is always going to spark these sorts of conversations. It's Human nature to want to compare. And the difference between milers and sprinters is not that great.
What a load of rubbish. I am Australian and can tell you Frankel would beat Black Caviar by four over 6f. Vain is the only horse we have ever had in Australia post war that ever came close to Frankel winning races over 1200 by 10 and 12 lengths. Vain was the only freak sprinter this country has had post war. You can compare any horse over any distance over any era. Journalists do it all the time telling Australians that Black caviar is better than Phar Lap. Pathetic
Well said Anne ! The only journalist I ever met who could actually do something impressive was ND, who could tip big priced winners that were sourced from stable employees. Unfortunately though, as the press are backed by the Bookmaking industry, they do not want the general public having too many winners.
The more you watch that race, the more you appreciate her greatness. Not only did she get an injury, but how many horses do you know would be eased like that and still win! You cannot compare her and the great Winx or her and the great Frankel. Just feel privileged to have witnessed not just those three, but also Zenyatta all in the last 15 years. 102 races between the four of them and only seven defeats.
***** Thank you I really wish people would read posts properly.The horse should have won by at least 2 lengths but he was trying to show off,totally forgetting he was up another level compared to previous opposition.She was better than any other horse in that field and should have been allowed to beat them accordingly but her Jockey was either stoned or half a sleep.She was way better than that performance, torn muscle and all.
B Gardiner Obviously you don't know the horse,she used to switch off in her races like that all the time and could win easily,on this occasion the jockey overcooked it he pulled her up way to early and didn't bother to look around,luckily she saw them coming because she kicked enough to win she had an enormous stride.
I thought it happened at the start too. The way she came out of the stalls looked really awkward but I've never seen any comment or report about it anywhere. She was over the top before she got to England. Stupid decision to run her in Adelaide in April and May.
Don't think Aidan O'brien will be head - hunting that jockey, takes his foot off the pedal in a 6f race at Royal Ascot. No horse is that good. An inch from throwing it away.
She cannot be compared to frankel as he was simply in his own league but you have to admit it was fantastic to see her at ascot. One of the highlights of the week
Oh god youre here as well blackening winx,she must really get under your skin thats she's so much better than your give me a pacemaker or i wont win farkall.
what are people takin about here a serious mare. yes maybe the jockey fuck up. travelled half way cross the world to do this. do you want her to win by 30 lenght. if she won by that they would some say something ha. and they mention frankel... let me tell you people talk about frankel.. .seathestars would have put it to bed. any distance to 6 forlongs to a mile an quater... so seathestars was better... but this mare id honestly think that she would take seathestars.any time.any where thats how good this mare is
Doesn't matter how many times I watch this I can't believe how she got herself going again to win it with just a few metres to go. To drop his hands with 50 to go and with the calibre of horses just metres behind him - well we all know what could have happened. Great horses just know how to find that little bit more - as with Might and Power in the Cup.
seathestars would beat frankel? that's the stupidest fucking thing ive ever heared in my life hahahha.. xcelebration would destroy black caviar and seathestars! and frankel beat xcel what 3-4 times? with complete ease! Frankel is the best horse EVER! no questions asked....
Of course he would ! Frankel ; 14 races and 14 times favourite(13 @odds on). Frankel odds of 1/10 twice and 1/20 once in European Group Ones. Frankel 14 victories with an aggregate winning distance of 75 lengths .Frankel beat more Group One winners, and by further than any horse in the modern era (1970 +)and he did it again and again. Frankel would have slaughtered Black Caviar over six furlongs just as top class Chief Singer did in 1983 to Never So Bold and Habibti. Check out his victory in the 1983 Coventry Stakes @Royal Ascot, his 1984 St James Palace victory over a mile a year later at Royal Ascot, and his July Cup victory the same year, where he reverted to six furlongs . Chief Singer was the only horse in the Coventry Stakes to be making his debut and started @20s, and though he was pure class, he was no Frankel !
@@Joelksk nah she wouldn't winx would win Black Caviar has a 12 stride Winx has a 13 stride and can run for longer at the higher pace and Winx has 29 wins in a row and more group 1's than any other horse even Black Caviar
@@southernhighlander22 You can't base it off g1s/wins I think because they both did it all and each run different lengths of time + there are more g1s around 1600-2000 compared to sprints back then. For me Black Caviar beat better horses, Australia has the best sprinters and yes Winx has beaten some of them but not at there preferred distance. I reckon Hay list, buffering, ortensia and moon light cloud were better than Hartnell, crierion or benbatl. Plus winx has had the same prep without injuries. Read Black Caviar's book, she was never at her best moody said. There was always something niggling her. She also reached higher speeds (I know she was a sprinter) and had a stride 1.4 metres longer. We have to say winx would win over a mile as BC never raced at the distance. I saw both at least 3 times (including 2 of Winx's cox plates) and black caviars speed and power is something I've never seen before, she would get too far in front for the champ.
Having watched "Lady Aurelia`s Queen Mary Royal Ascot" win again, it must be said that Frankie`s hands and heels approach, and his easing up near the line show the fastest two year old of all time could have broken the one minute barrier on the rain softened ground.She is clearly value for a length more than the official seven lengths. Incredible !
Black Caviar and Frankel, 2 great horses! You can't win that many in a row without having an off day these days. Goes to show what champions these 2 horses are, even with an off day, they still manage to win. Even Secretariat lost on his off day but still is one of the greatest horses ever. Gotta give these horses with unbeaten records a thumbs up especially in today's racing. Pure champions!
Bloody hell Walto your putting up a good, fair, if long winded point. I agree with your points about prize money in the UK lagging behind Hong Kong and Aus, and Snow Fairy being a great maré.
Evening Frank.Been following your debate with BG and have to say it is a breath of fresh air.I was a regular poster on another site and had some real good ding dongs(Sp included)but the ineptitude of some more recent contributers,if I can call them that,has diluted my appetite for debate and I simply laugh at their ignorance these days.As for me,I used to be an apprentice years ago and got to ride Mr Brooks a couple of times in his work.I got too big though and since then have simply been a...
Just looked up Mr.Brooks record in a bit more detail.Didn't realise what a top drawer horse he was.July Cup,L'Abbeye.Top class.I seperated them for the reason's you gave,the style's are so different.As you said,all left handed,Man O'War only on dirt and even when Secretariat raced on turf it was very fast going compared to the British tracks.Man O' War was revered at the time as simply unbeatable and his defeat is one of the biggest injustices in U.S racing history.Secretariat's record..cont..
Sunline run the Doncaster with 58kg, run a line through that,it is an tremendous amount of respect from the handicapper to weight her up to 59.5kg to put 1.5kg more on her than Sunline speaks volumes about her class SP...no denying that!
No need for an apology, you make a couple of valid points, I have come to understand the tracks are different in the U.K and I also knew S.P was an aussie,..the race I was referring to was his last race against Cirrus..they did run through the first 3 over 40's one of them furlongs a 14.25 the others 2 13.6 or around there somewhere with out going back and double checking them.. when you consider Frankel ran his last furlong around 11.96 and Cirrus probably a shade over 12.3..(con)
..cont..that Black Caviar has that power about her as well and eventhough she underperformed at Ascot she still outclassed them when travelling on the bridle.Her Lightening Stakes win earlier this year was astonishing with a 10 second furlong and she still won comfortably.Great mare.
For those wanting to know Black Caviar had a trial today in a field of 10 horses came out of the widest barrier around 1 turn and won in the fastest of the day over 4furlongs by 5 lengths under a strangle hold in 45.85, she looked awesome it's on youtube somewhere? I don't know who she trailed against but the last horse was about 25 lengths out the back!
As a European, I think BC cannot be judged on this run. To travel from Austrialia, run on a straight track like Ascot and put your record on the line is brave. Frankel did not go to the Breeders Cup or the Arc. I love to have seen frank v BC in the July Cup.
SYT has demonstrated he can run time up front,and has been put through the Acid test on so many front's including the handicaps and raced in so many world class races and finished with in a few lengths ..to carry 56.5 over 16f against the worlds best stayer in that year Americain who had 54kg after entering the race on a hang over after the cox plate and finish third..demonstrates his ability at the handicaps.
Hey guitar... yes, absolutely open to debate. With regards to BC she's likely to be past her absolute best, so it'll be interesting to see what she does when / if she comes back. From what I understand it's still up in the air.
match for a while Bucko but answer me one more question please. You say Helmet declined on leaving Aus, so you are saying that his UK performance was worse than his run behind Mosheen, in other words if he ran to the same level in the QA as he did against Mosheen, he would have been closer than 16.5 lengths. So according to that, you believe that Mosheen would have been within 5.5 lengths of Frankel in the QA. You also believe that Strike the Stars, who finished 3 lengths behind Mosheen in the
Just been rated joint greatest race mare or filly over the last 35 years by the international handicappers. Great news for Australian and New Zealand racing. Well respected overseas for the quality of racehorse they breed and race.
She is a pure machine ...she left her country to run against the best all over the world..you have to leave ur country to run against the best to be the best .she proved herself everywere ..
Answer me these questions then: 1. Frankel was 9 lengths off the TR, therefore would he have finished 9 lengths behind STS in his Juddmonte? Why or why not? 2. Is 206.59 as fast as physically possible Frankel can cover 10.5f around York? Was he being ridden to run the quickest time, or was he put to sleep at the end of the field, with 0 influence on the pace, only produced 3f at home and only shaken up 1f from home? Well?
I am a pom and proud Of the quality of racing we have, but if you can't appreciate the brilliance of racing elsewhere you being blinkered. Black Caviar was injured in the Diamond Jubilee and still won. Dayjur was a brilliant sprinter, but this mare is the best speedster as far as I'm concerned. Her stride makes her took much bigger than her opponents.
Off coarse home ground advantage is huge Josh, I also said bc just fell in making more of a point about horses for courses.this is at WFA, excelebration is a good horse, might have a better chance at a doncaster with 57?
In the AJC plate(18f) where phar lap raced away to a 30 length lead and eased down in the straight to win under a strangle hold the horse that was 10 lengths behind in second place was Nightmarch..one of only 6 horses ever to win the Cox Plate/Melbourne Cup double in the same year..
Haradasun won the Doncaster with only 52.5kg in 2007 and went on to win the QA in the UK.. Sunline won with 58...went on to win the Hong kong vase over the 8f..NJ 59.5kg..huge respect mate!
..fan ever since.I can't go racing very often now as where I live is far away from the better tracks,though I do agree that the smaller tracks offer a great day out.I rarely bet,though in the past did my own ratings and did very well.I gave up though because I was finding that the handicapper and myself seemed to get very similar ratings and the way I bet meant I had to have a horse with at least a certain advantage before backing it - 4lbs.I don't miss it though and simply enjoy the sport ..
Terry wrote " If Chief Singer can go from being the best miler to the best sprinter in 1984, it would be absurd to suggest the greatest horse of all time could not -my p.o.r xx."
Well done to Ireland on their one, two, three in last night`s Melbourne Cup 2017. I have long been called this and that for telling the truth but it is now official ; Oz racing is full of wood ! How can anyone be in doubt after this morning`s result. Absolute wood ! B.Gardiner2000,Bob Gardiner and B.Gardiner now know the truth. Two bob Bob has no place to hide. He can invent another username ( he has far more usernames than winners) but it`s official ; Oz racing is in a very very bad place.
Black Caviar was recognised as a world-champion racehorse, achieving a World Thoroughbred Racehorse Rankings rating of 130 in 2013, equal highest in the world with Treve. She won all 24 starts at distances from 1000m to 1400m, which included 15 Group One races, defeating world-class gallopers Hay List, Buffering, Moonlight Cloud, Crystal Lily and Star Witness. Frankel was recognised as a world-champion racehorse, achieving WTRB rankings of 136 in 2011 and 140 in 2012, four points clear of the next highest ranking ever given to a Thoroughbred. He won all 14 starts from 1400m to 2100m, including 9 consecutive Group One races (equalling Zenyatta's record), defeating outstanding horses like Farhh, Cirrus des Aigles, Excelebration and Nathaniel. In the Diamond Jubilee Stakes, run on the heaviest track she had experienced, Black Caviar scraped home to beat Moonlight Cloud who disposed of notables such as Farhh, Dawn Approach, Declaration of War and Lethal Force during her career. The courses in the UK with significant gradients, long grass and heavy loams are a genuine test of stamina and soundness irrespective of distance and are tough for American and Australian horses which race on specialised surfaces of turf, cut short on well-drained lighter soils or (in North America) dirt tracks which become mud with rain but remain firm, fast surfaces. The closest comparison we can make between the two is over 1400m when both carried 57kgs on good tracks. The fastest time recorded for Black Caviar's wins over 1400m is 1:25:14. In his one start over 1400m, Frankel recorded 1:24:60 which is an estimated margin of 4.5 lengths better than the mare. Taking into account the different racing environments it's reasonable to suggest that at their best, Frankel might beat Black Caviar by 6 -7 lengths over 7 furlongs but anyone claiming English and Irish thoroughbreds as the being best in the world on the back of Frankel should first consider the most significant influence in a pedigree, the grandparents. Three of the four names carry the suffix (US).
As you can tell Guitarlegend I am from the U.S!I came to England many years ago and have indirectly been involved in the sport since I was a child.My father had a small farm in Maryland and I rode ponies regularly that we reared which eventually became lead horses,the ones you see taking the race horses to post.I got involved in a small time breeding operation that bred a few winners,alas the stallion fees went ridiculous,although we did visit Danzig with a Fly So Free mare and made a..cont..
Arsenal mate just got home sorry I didn't see your earlier MSG. I had a good listen to the speed mappers and form analysts this morning about the NM and they reckon it'll be a below average pace and Barakey will lead possibly. He has missed a run but im willing to have a go at each way odds. MOC ran to 124 in the Lightning, and to me is a deserving fav, but at 2.90 I'll steer clear. What odds would Barakey be if he ran and won the Oakleigh?
That's an interesting point you make Walto and Peter Moody and O'brien have eluded to that a few times, both Mani and with SYT..there is a difference in style of training between the U.K and Australia..not so much suggesting one method is better than the other, but it is evidential some horses respond differently too them..Manighar in the U.K was trained more dour and aimed up at the Melbourne Cup ..he's starts here prior to the appointment of Peter Moody was quite ordinary.
It'll be great to see the great mare at Royal Ascot and show us the three to four length better horse she is than the one who won last year. Talking of great mares Makybe Diva is a legend. To win one Melbourne Cup is a great achievement but three on the bounce. The Cox Plate to boot.
Really this win is spectacular by Black Caviar. We will only appreciate it more & more as time goes on. Moonlight Cloud is a champion who has proven the form time & again with multiple Gr.1 wins.
Group 1-winning miler Canford Cliffs will stand at Blue Gum Farm in Victoria from this year. Canford Cliffs was retired to stud last year, and is currently standing his first season at Coolmore’s County Tipperary farm, (Gr 1, 1m) at Goodwood last August. Trained in England by Richard Hannon, who has said that the colt was the best horse he had trained in over 40 years of training, Canford Cliffs won five successive races at the highest level before running second to Frankel in the Sussex Stake
I do not pretend to know enough on this subject but I read an article where the trainer of a sprinter down under named Sea Siren suggested that this colt could give Black Caviar a race. Now there always seems to be a real top sprinter on the conveyor belt in Australia and it's hard keeping track of them but I would like to know what Australian's think of this suggestion from John O'Shea (I believe that's his name). And I also heard about a horse called Mental who is perhaps running in Dubai.
Well said and there is talk of her running in the king stand and then going to stud with Frankel, I hope she does for one...what an advertisement for sport that would be.
Stayers and middle distance horses contest the M C, and you can nearly always be certain a class middle distance horse would win the race that stops a nation. Its the way the race is run. It suits a horse with a turn of foot. Makybe Diva comes to mind.
I just hope they pay her the dues in the ratings there have been some magnificent horses in the past all around the world and it's not about putting them down although I have crossed reference to them from time to time mostly to highlight what this girl has achieved because the world is starting appreciate her and in a way she belongs to all her fans abroad as well I'd be happy with a 140 for her, I think anything less is selling her phenomenal record/ winning streak short of what it deserves.
is comparing them with the standard time of other races. For example, When STS broke the track record, they were kicking up dust, I was there the ground was slightly softer when Frankel run (I was there again lol) Infact there were clumps of mud being kicked up in places though the ground was probably no worse than good. Anyway, frankel also ran across the course and was barely pushed for all but about 100 yards, and even then it was hands and heels. (Continued)
Ever heard the crowd noise as spontaneous and as loud as this at Ascot, particularly at the jump and finish? Experienced Ascot race-watchers please comment.
Walto theres a good example that shows your misunderstanding on the ratings in thr Juddmonte actually. St Nicholas Abbey, multiple group one winner, rated 128 and Farhh, 0 time group 1 winner, also rated 128. Where did they finish in relation to each other Walto, were they far apart as your assessment of the two horses would have them or we're they pretty much identical in terms of ability as the ratings would have you believe?
It' ll be great for racing if the great mare finished her unbeaten career back at Royal Ascot next June. Just to show us Brits she is a four length better horse than what was produced this year. After Frankel retiring we want a superstar to showcase the big meeting.
Deacon Blues is a talented sprinter, and along side Reckless Abandon would be interesting opponents to Black Caviar. But Mr Walto is correct with his last comment. Looking forward to her race tomorrow.
That he was - consistent to the point of being a handicappers dream.Use him as the benchmark of the form in any race he contested in Europe barring the Arc.He had no chance from that draw,indeed only Sakhee has won from that wide and he was no Sakhee.But as tough as nails and always gave 100%.I have no idea why people think he would have given Frankel a proper test and had at least 5 lengths to find with him.He raced Sri Putra,who was just as consistent as SYT(just to a lesser level)4 times...
... deserve to see her one more time and I think that would be enough as a whole fair well tour would be pushing it. It would be very apt if she had her last race and her 23rd win in February in the race now named in her honour and beat into second (by a respectable distance) a fellow mare called Ortensia. The team can then retire her in the knowledge that it will be a long time before a horse will surpass her winning streak (especially now Bib Bucks is injured) and before her equal.
The difference is with Handicaps is we don't allow G1 handicaps. There isn't an emphasis over here on carrying weight. A million dollars is only about £600,000 mate, the horse is worth £100,000,000+ and I think he's beat a few horses the superior of MJ anyway. That 14 second furlong mate was run through a bog, the 7f sectional for every race run on the round course that day was just as slow if not slower. As for his final furlong, it was run up the straight which was a lot drier. (Continued)
She's the joint highest rated mare of all time along with Pebbles and Miesque.In Timeform's ratings she is joint with All Along and Habibti and 1lb ahead of Pebbles.
Good luck to James Slevin with his two rides tonight. Young James is a jockey going places and I have been following him since day one. Tonight he rides one for Joseph O`Brien ! Can`t wait !
Black Caviar has put 70 kg on since her win at Ascot, she now weighs 610kg and races at 540kg, all reports are she's come back stronger, not that she needed to!
I think Mental has a good chance this week at the Dubia W/C sprint earp? I don't know much about the opposition, but his a lohnro colt on the rise should be strong at the end..not much of a price here though?
Point taken, it is hard to cross compare Black Cavair and Phar Lap along with Kingston town and Tulloch, but I think it's fair to assume ..these Quartet of horse's stand alone as our greatest, of coarse there may be 1 or 2 others, but IMO, she's the best sprinter and the only sprinter we could ever talk about in the same breath as Phar Lap, which does compliment her greatness and ability on the race track of which we may not ever see again in our life time?
Here's a stat you may find interesting comparing B/C and Choisior, Choisior who held the track record at Ascot over the 6f for 10 years ran 56.63 at flemington in the G1 LIGHTNING stakes carrying 54.5 kg, B.C ran 55.53 carrying 56.5kg both of them front running performances ..here's the dif..the track had been resurfaced and does race slower to as when Choisior won on it I think? ..B.C was coming back from the 7f and was not whipped out to the line? in lengths that's about 16 the diff?
continued... That figure was compiled not by form but by time against the others in the standard time I was talking about. Excelebration, who had a monster form figure of 135, only achieved a speed figure of 118. Suggesting over a mile, he's at his best coming off a slow pace. That would be backed up by his next highest mark of 133 also coming off a slower pace. Frankels two 10f runs, both achieved speed figures of over 130 suggesting they were both strongly run races. Continued..
Highland Reel franks the form of superstar Winx ever further when winning the Breeders Cup Turf beating Flintshire 2.5 lengths and Arc winner Found was 3rd......Highland Reel won a Grp1 before he faced Winx and won a Grp1 after he faced Winx so he was clearly in good form. Of course she beat him easily in the Cox Plate by 6 lengths and beat the 2nd horse 5 l;engths. She has remained unbeaten all year and won the WFA Championship the WS Cox Plate again this year, this time beating Hartnell 8 lengths. Hartnell is rated the equal of Flintshire in the IFHA's Longines World Horse Rankings. 10 lengths away in 4th was the last start European Grp1 winner Vadamos. Vadamos again ran 4th yesterday in the $2 million Grp1 Emirates Macknnon Stks. There's little doubt she is either the world's best or at least the equal of California Chrome
The fact that it was the 6th fastest Juddmonte of over 40 shows it was truly run, the speed ratings that Josh mentioned show it was strong, and the sectionals show it was plenty strong. It really is mind boggling when you try and imply Frankel couldn't have done what SYT did in the 09 Cox Plate. Frankel has shown he can get 2100m on his ear and he has shown he has sprinting speed to rival any but BC but you somehow believe SYT could maybe get the better of him if the dueled up front.
As the connections of Frankel roll around in there hay of stud money and the world is robbed of seeing Frankel race on into his 5 and 6 year old age...the connections of Black Caviar who bravely risked her reputation by traveling abroad to Ascot and sustaining an injury that could have seen her retire are bringing her back as a 6 year on feb 16 in the lightning stakes, putting her 22/22 on the line for all her adoring fans...three cheers for her connections who are just ordinary working folk.
Great night at Kempton yesterday ! Plenty of Pinot too ! Thanks to Harry Spiller for his tip in the last. It did not win but 20s third was much appreciated. Harry is a lovely guy, who has taken over Willie Musson`s yard in Newmarket following ole Willie`s(85 years old??) retirement. Cheaper horses but worth following through the winter.Many carry the prefix of the owner`s company ;Broughton Thermal Insulation. Thanks too, to the two Oz gentleman ; Malcolm and Fraser who tipped me Almandin for The Melbourne Cup.
Granted, that sectional for that sectional does seem slow. However, the track conditions that day were Soft to Heavy, Heavy in places. I'd presume the Heavy and the place would refer too Swinley bottom which is the lowest point on the racecourse and with the heavy rainfall prior to racing, would have been the soggiest because it's low lying ground. That slow sectional took place at Swinley bottom and suspect that the 8 to 7f sectional for each race on the round course would have been (continued)
What I find interesting across the broad spectrum of opinion here in Australia, she's the first horse to be compared beyond Kingston town and back to Phar Lap..Now as we all know that opinion is based more on our emotions and respect for her, as it's like comparing apples and oranges trying to compare her with them two...The only two apples in the same breath as her are Toddman and Vein and maybe Manikato IMO...imo my money would be on her at set weights with the 2 kilo pull would be 1 length
RIP Black Caviar. She passed away today - one day shy of her 18th birthday.
They put her down just after she produced a foal . Greedy owners should be ashamed of themselves .
@@sharonozvenomshe had laminitis you fool
Spot on. An absolute disgrace how she was treated.
People don't realise how difficult it is for horses to win outside there own region,Ambitious Dragon couldn't win in Dubai,Cirrus Des Aigles, couldn't win in 3 attempts in Hong Kong,Excelebration couldn't win in America,Danedream couldn't win in Japan etc etc etc
Black Caviar won overseas whilst not at her best,she is a legend
And the greatest in Phar Lap, The Agua Caliente in 1932 on dirt, the world's richest race. 7 races held that day & he broke the track record with a profusely bleeding split hoof. Nearly lame before the race, arrived after an arduous long boat trip, arrived in his winter coat. Missed the start, was last, was 1st by the turn & covered 2 furlongs in just 22 seconds. Both incredible horses.
So You Think won five G1s in both hemispheres, the only horse to do that.
Not that hard to be honest
@@freedomforpeopletruelies6 what do you mean?
@@F50Aircraft to win races abroad
What a win! Travelled thousands of miles, looked like she had trained off & injured during the race BUT she still won!! If she had been at her best & won it easily this race would probably be long forgotten. As it is it will be remembered forever as one of the most dramatic finishes ever!!
Who’s here 17/8/24 ? RIP Champion girl 🖤🙏🏻
Yep. Legend.
All things aside some Aussies(including me) understandably tear up watching this Mighty Mare. Weve been spoilt good and very priviledged.
Australia produces the best horses in the world fr 👌
I can’t watch this without crying. This was on my bday & we were out at the casino watching at 1am.
Watching this again tonight after quite a while and just really appreciating what a great victory for the mighty mare Black Caviar this was.
What, you mean when she fell over the line against a couple of mile horses?
@@amazed66 tool
@@amazed66 yes, injured and still managed to beat a 5 x G1 winning Cartier horse of the year, after 11 races in 11 months, travelling to the other side of the world out of season. Unfortunately there are many people who lack the racing faculty to appreciate what she achieved in her career on the basis of her performance in this race despite the fact that she ran 15lbs below her season average.
@@amazed66 nice one dipshit
@@amazed66 Injured...
Black Caviar was the best sprinter I have ever seen. She was injured in this race, having a torn muscle in her quarters and still managed to win. She was an incredible racehorse.
What no-one knew at the time - apart from the bad ride - was that she had an 8 centimetre muscle tear. In fact she had a grade 4 tear of the quadriceps and a grade 2 tear near the rump. I would love to have seen this field race at Flemington with her injury free. They would have been entering the straight as she passed the post. Probably the greatest turf sprinter of all time.
But other horses in race could of been under the weather too its a level playing field and she won so why excuses on why she could of won more easily
@@philiskirk57 I think it is absolutely important. She ran 15lbs below her season average in this race... the reason it's important is that there are many people who don't know anything about racing who are quick to conclude that this was as good as she could go and that her performance here was merely against better opposition than she had faced previously.
@@philiskirk57 she travelled half way across the world and eased down before the line. How many horses at that level can you ease down before the line and still win.
@@philiskirk57 your grasp of that effort is only matched by your skill with the English language.... it’s “could have” (twice) in case you couldn’t work it out.
@@LJWilba No, was injured. Tears in hindquarters & severe bruising on hindlegs.
Is anyone who commented below aware that she tore her hindquarter muscle in that race yet STILL WON!?! Hence struggling a bit more than her usual flourishing finish. An amazing mare.
+Anna Locke There were a raft of reasons why she didn't perform at her best. Most notably the injury she suffered. I liken the idiots who rate her based on this performance on par with someone claiming that Frankel was over-rated because he only beat Zoffany by a half in the SJP. It's nonsense.
She beat Soul by a length at Ascot. At Flemington she beat Soul by 8 lengths eased up.
Black Caviar never raced against Soul in Australia. The reason Godolphin sent Soul to Europe was on the basis that he loved heavy going. He actually beat Buffering in a G2 Danehill Stakes on a desperately heavy track. On a good track he was beaten 5L by Star Witness. He was beaten over 7L by BC in the Newmarket eased up... And he got 11lbs from her. The difference between Soul and BC, IMO, is more like 10-12L.
yes and they are all in Gardiner`s head ! There is no chance of her going off at 1/5 if she had any injuries in UK. She would have drifted like a barge in the betting and that did not happen ! Nostalgia is a wonderful emotion but it often borders on delusion !
Wrong ! No horses "love heavy ground" but one horse, the winner, usually copes better on it ! The words ; "mudlark" and "mudlover" imply something that is completely false. There are a million and one stats to back this up ! Suffice to say that horses are most comfortable on good ground ,and the clue is in the word ; good !
Winx couldn't have beaten Black Caviar in a short sprint; Black Caviar couldn't have won 4 Cox Plates.
too good. can watch this all day along. aussie.legend
Even though this is old, I'd like to say thank you to her connections for letting the world know just how good she was. She proved what winx couldn't. For that I am humbled
Winner of a video, I been tryin to find out about "ascot horse racing england" for a while now, and I think this has helped. Ever heard of - Nenlizaab Horse Ascendancy - (do a search on google ) ? Ive heard some great things about it and my mate got amazing success with it.
@Matthew Bennett Cheers for this, I been tryin to find out about "ascot races uk dress code" for a while now, and I think this has helped. Have you heard people talk about - Nenlizaab Horse Ascendancy - (Have a quick look on google cant remember the place now ) ? Ive heard some unbelievable things about it and my cousin got great results with it.
Do you rate Winx
@Welcome to 1984 not at 2000m on my opinion. Winx would be too good at 2000m. At 2400m Enable wins
@Welcome to 1984 1400m to 2000m...Winx. 2400m....Enable. Two completely different horses but both champions. A shame that Winx didn't travel outside home country (Australia) away from the comforts of home.
When you realise the history achieved by Moonlight Cloud in Deauville over the last few weeks it makes you appreciate more the effort a injury hit Black Caviar put in to beat her in this race. Two fantastic racehorses.
It's a pitty the everest wasn't around a few years ago. The cav would of snashed it every year
I totally forgot about the Everest... you’re so right! He would have dominated
It would of been nice to watch chautauqua make a start in the Everest or possibly win it
@@luke9705 she
@@bgardiner3354 my bad!
@@BlankaTK Chautauqua did
Wow! Amazing effort to beat the superstar Moonlight Cloud when not at her best! Just read the book and I'm sure if it was any other horse Peter Moody would not have run. The pressure from the media and public for her to run was enormous. A truly great performance from the champ!
I think they new she wasn't 100% but ran her anyway, just to keep up appearances, I thought by the half way mark she was struggling a bit.
With all the hype could you imagine the scene had Moody pulled her? Hats off for having a go. There are too many ignorant ppl who don't see this win for what it was... a hugely gutsy win against all odds. The Darley Classic run at Flemington on the weekend shows just how much better the Australian sprinters are.
+Tamsin710 - By no stretch of the imagination could Moonlight Cloud ever be described as a superstar and she was a 7f to a mile horse running at a sprint distance anyway and still gave Black Caviar the fright of her life.
MC had raced in England twice before this race and was 5th and 7th and on more than one occasion had finished behind Excelebration, who was 0 from 5 against Frankel and MC was also beaten 8 times during a 20 race career. That might count as superstar status in Australia but not elsewhere.
amazed66 so you don’t mention the fact that she was injured you moron?
@@amazed66 if you call having a stablemate in a four horse field is how you call your racing you're deluded,if farkall came to Australia he would have been bullied and lucky to win a quality,black caviar would have torn him a new one up to 1400 the winx would have filled it in over that,with no dodgy pacemakers either,thats so suss and rigged.Couldnt he race in an open competitive field of more than 4?overrated hack
Black cavier sadly passed away today what a wonder horse
But this is the mighty Black Caviar in this race. 80 per cent fit and still wins. Thank god for the Zenyatta' s, Sea The Star' s,Black Caviars, and Frankel' s. We have been spoilt. Its only when this nationalistic self pride starts to dilute itself , that we we will appreciate the brilliant racehorse's from other parts of the world who have set standards the owners of Eclipse those centuries ago could only dream of.
80% fit after she crossed the line. She was fine going into the race.
Black Caviar's formlines are still being franked today, years after her retirement with 8yo Aussie Buffering winning his 7th Grp1 in the Al Quoz Sprint in Dubai. They met 3 times, all Grp1 races, and Black Caviar won comprehensively every time. A once in a lifetime freak sprinter.
And than Winx comes along to spoil the party!
@@burningsagemanmusic7491 lol overrated horse
Putting it from another perspective for those Brits who cant quite draw a line through her form at Ascot..Take over Target, Miss Andretti,Starbanglebanner and Choirs all winners of the King Stand and jubilee, Choirs taking out the double and track record holder are the fastest horse by actual coarse time to race at Ascot If all these horse's met her here over the 6f Black Caviar would still be in the red and win by 3 to 5 lghts IMO and most other Aussie's would agree with this, she stands alone!
RIP Black Caviar, thoughts with connections ❤️
2 years from watching it live, i still cannot believe nolen almost blew it.
-Didn't need to pump the whip
-Hands and heels over the line was sufficient yet he stopped riding.
He didn't use the whip, apparently just put it in eye sight & apparently she never had the whip used on her, which is a good thing.
@carol m if he knew she was injured, he would have dismounted virtually straight away after the race. just a poor ride
He was o
Always gonna win just distance bet
I was rooting for her from America, what a racehorse! And from what I understand she pulled a muscle in her rump and still gave it her all.
Several seconds slower, than her even her slowest ever time at that distance, and that includes her runs on slower rated tracks. What does that tell anyone with half a brain....???
She was WAY below her best that day and even way below her previous worst. She was sore. Yet still she won. An amazing effort!
17 lbs below her season average in fact. So injured or not is beside the point. It's enough to say that she was not at her best. Terry's very quick to defend Frankel when you ask him how close he was to being beaten in the SJP, but describes as myth anything that explains Black Caviar's sub-par performance. You can guarantee one thing... he won't have even seen any of her other performances, so is coming from a position of absolute guess-work and rumour, the currency of the bigot and the troll.
to true.. not blamin the jock but if he had let her do her think she would have won it better. but thats racing. not forgettin travel half way across the world.. unreal mare a machine.
Nolan did let her go... with 2 Furlongs to run he is scrubbing her along. He eased up with 50m to go and she geared down much more noticeably than she has previously. Had he kept at her to the line she might have won by a length or so.... but she was out on her feet.
but she probably was out on her feet... but she travelled hald way cross the world to do this.. and she still did in style. best mare i. world
Oh absolutely. Don't misunderstand me, her performance was amazing give all that she had to contend with. Injured during the race... an injury she had suffered previously. But there are a lot of other mitigating circumstances, even taking the travel into account. She was out of season and had contested (and won obviously) 9 Group 1 races in 9 months against far stiffer opposition than she had faced in the UK. She should have been spelling given that she had run her grand final weeks before in the TJ Smith. I have do doubt that had she been racing at home Moody would have given up on the idea of sending her to the races. But with all of the expectation he didn't have that luxury. Despite the fact though that he left her in and she triumphed under difficult circumstances there are morons, who don't know any better, that think this is anywhere near as good as she goes.
.
At two, Canford Cliffs won the Coventry Stakes (Gr 2, 6f), beating Xtension by six lengths. At three, he ran third to Makfi in the 2000 Guineas (Gr 1, 1m) at Newmarket before taking out the Irish 2000 Guineas and the St James’s Palace Stakes at Royal Ascot, and then the Sussex Stakes all at Group 1 level over a mile. At four, he won the Lockinge Stakes (Gr 1, 1m) before beating the Champion mare Goldikova in the Queen Anne Stakes (
Why compare frankel to black caviar, bc raced at 6-7f and frankel was a miler, totally different racing..get over yourselves!
Well said.
+WGT Lizard69 They both raced over 7F. Regardless, modern racing's use of ratings is always going to spark these sorts of conversations. It's Human nature to want to compare. And the difference between milers and sprinters is not that great.
tell the truth Gardiner ! How many times have you changed your underpants today ?? The last day of Ascot and everyone is winning except Oz !
What a load of rubbish. I am Australian and can tell you Frankel would beat Black Caviar by four over 6f. Vain is the only horse we have ever had in Australia post war that ever came close to Frankel winning races over 1200 by 10 and 12 lengths. Vain was the only freak sprinter this country has had post war. You can compare any horse over any distance over any era. Journalists do it all the time telling Australians that Black caviar is better than Phar Lap.
Pathetic
Well said Anne ! The only journalist I ever met who could actually do something impressive was ND, who could tip big priced winners that were sourced from stable employees. Unfortunately though, as the press are backed by the Bookmaking industry, they do not want the general public having too many winners.
Every now and then an amazing horse comes along, Black Caviar is one of them :)
This Could've been catastrophic for the jockey
The more you watch that race, the more you appreciate her greatness. Not only did she get an injury, but how many horses do you know would be eased like that and still win! You cannot compare her and the great Winx or her and the great Frankel. Just feel privileged to have witnessed not just those three, but also Zenyatta all in the last 15 years. 102 races between the four of them and only seven defeats.
U put that perfectly. We are privileged to have watched them all. Great comment Stan
She would have won easily but for her arrogant jockey,who thought he was in Australia having a bong.
Go fuck yourself, she's the best ever and YOU know it,
She tore her hindquarter muscle, and still managed to win. I'd like to see you do that.
***** Thank you I really wish people would read posts properly.The horse should have won by at least 2 lengths but he was trying to show off,totally forgetting he was up another level compared to previous opposition.She was better than any other horse in that field and should have been allowed to beat them accordingly but her Jockey was either stoned or half a sleep.She was way better than that performance, torn muscle and all.
The ride made little or no difference to the result. She was a spent force at that point anyway.
B Gardiner Obviously you don't know the horse,she used to switch off in her races like that all the time and could win easily,on this occasion the jockey overcooked it he pulled her up way to early and didn't bother to look around,luckily she saw them coming because she kicked enough to win she had an enormous stride.
bc injured badly at the start , no other horse in the world could of won that race injured #bestsprinterwewillseeinourtime
Matthew Lawrance tell me how was she injured? Lame? Doesn't look it what do ever. Horse looked fine to me.
@@Apassion4horses tore it's hindquarter ya fucking muppet.
I thought it happened at the start too.
The way she came out of the stalls looked really awkward but I've never seen any comment or report about it anywhere.
She was over the top before she got to England.
Stupid decision to run her in Adelaide in April and May.
Don't think Aidan O'brien will be head - hunting that jockey, takes his foot off the pedal in a 6f race at Royal Ascot. No horse is that good. An inch from throwing it away.
She cannot be compared to frankel as he was simply in his own league but you have to admit it was fantastic to see her at ascot. One of the highlights of the week
Black Caviar is better than Winx.
Lmfao k
And neither are better than Frankel.
@@clivesangster7274 good joke
Oh god youre here as well blackening winx,she must really get under your skin thats she's so much better than your give me a pacemaker or i wont win farkall.
@@clivesangster7274 theyd be putting both of them back in the float time he crossed the line
what are people takin about here a serious mare. yes maybe the jockey fuck up. travelled half way cross the world to do this. do you want her to win by 30 lenght. if she won by that they would some say something ha. and they mention frankel... let me tell you people talk about frankel.. .seathestars would have put it to bed. any distance to 6 forlongs to a mile an quater... so seathestars was better... but this mare id honestly think that she would take seathestars.any time.any where thats how good this mare is
she was beaten until he gave her them 6 or 7 shoves. and see how she picked up again just that bit done it for her
Doesn't matter how many times I watch this I can't believe how she got herself going again to win it with just a few metres to go. To drop his hands with 50 to go and with the calibre of horses just metres behind him - well we all know what could have happened. Great horses just know how to find that little bit more - as with Might and Power in the Cup.
seathestars would beat frankel? that's the stupidest fucking thing ive ever heared in my life hahahha.. xcelebration would destroy black caviar and seathestars! and frankel beat xcel what 3-4 times? with complete ease! Frankel is the best horse EVER! no questions asked....
Excelerbration would destroy Black Caviar? Maybe in some alternate universe mate, but not in the real world.
Of course he would ! Frankel ; 14 races and 14 times favourite(13 @odds on). Frankel odds of 1/10 twice and 1/20 once in European Group Ones. Frankel 14 victories with an aggregate winning distance of 75 lengths .Frankel beat more Group One winners, and by further than any horse in the modern era (1970 +)and he did it again and again. Frankel would have slaughtered Black Caviar over six furlongs just as top class Chief Singer did in 1983 to Never So Bold and Habibti. Check out his victory in the 1983 Coventry Stakes @Royal Ascot, his 1984 St James Palace victory over a mile a year later at Royal Ascot, and his July Cup victory the same year, where he reverted to six furlongs . Chief Singer was the only horse in the Coventry Stakes to be making his debut and started @20s, and though he was pure class, he was no Frankel !
Balmain I totally agree. I hope she gets inducted into the hall of fame as was indicated just after yesterdays race.
Winx is a better horse. Trust me, I'm a lawyer.
Nah Black caviar beat better horses one injured at Ascot and never lost, Winx is still a fresk but I think black caviar would win over even 1400m
@@Joelksk nah she wouldn't winx would win Black Caviar has a 12 stride Winx has a 13 stride and can run for longer at the higher pace and Winx has 29 wins in a row and more group 1's than any other horse even Black Caviar
@@southernhighlander22 You can't base it off g1s/wins I think because they both did it all and each run different lengths of time + there are more g1s around 1600-2000 compared to sprints back then. For me Black Caviar beat better horses, Australia has the best sprinters and yes Winx has beaten some of them but not at there preferred distance. I reckon Hay list, buffering, ortensia and moon light cloud were better than Hartnell, crierion or benbatl. Plus winx has had the same prep without injuries. Read Black Caviar's book, she was never at her best moody said. There was always something niggling her. She also reached higher speeds (I know she was a sprinter) and had a stride 1.4 metres longer. We have to say winx would win over a mile as BC never raced at the distance. I saw both at least 3 times (including 2 of Winx's cox plates) and black caviars speed and power is something I've never seen before, she would get too far in front for the champ.
i just appreciate them both. They are both freaks. As are most lawyers - but not in a good way ...
@@southernhighlander22 Black Caviar has one of the longest strides recorded so stfu
Black caviar - frankel .. There would be only 1 winner frankel would of blown him away at half way easily.
Well done Leon. Indicative of your knowledge, BC is a she-horse, not a he-horse. How embarrassment
Your point is meaningless moron!
leon williams And ifs have such practical meanings.Like if Frankel would have go sprinting...Hm
Well, who knows?
My point is meaningless? You referred to her as a he. You don't even know she's a she. And my point is meaningless? Your funny
You cannot leave it alone Gardiner ! Come out of the closet two bob Bob !
Frankel would beat black cavair no trouble
It is comparable. Frankel ran at 7f in his career
😂😂
no one would beat her. sorry to burst your bubble.
Good joke
Having watched "Lady Aurelia`s Queen Mary Royal Ascot" win again, it must be said that Frankie`s hands and heels approach, and his easing up near the line show the fastest two year old of all time could have broken the one minute barrier on the rain softened ground.She is clearly value for a length more than the official seven lengths. Incredible !
Black Caviar and Frankel, 2 great horses! You can't win that many in a row without having an off day these days. Goes to show what champions these 2 horses are, even with an off day, they still manage to win. Even Secretariat lost on his off day but still is one of the greatest horses ever. Gotta give these horses with unbeaten records a thumbs up especially in today's racing. Pure champions!
Gees was this 8 years ago,Christ I was still happily married
Bloody hell Walto your putting up a good, fair, if long winded point. I agree with your points about prize money in the UK lagging behind Hong Kong and Aus, and Snow Fairy being a great maré.
what a call from jim mcrath who retired yesterday fantastic commentator
Evening Frank.Been following your debate with BG and have to say it is a breath of fresh air.I was a regular poster on another site and had some real good ding dongs(Sp included)but the ineptitude of some more recent contributers,if I can call them that,has diluted my appetite for debate and I simply laugh at their ignorance these days.As for me,I used to be an apprentice years ago and got to ride Mr Brooks a couple of times in his work.I got too big though and since then have simply been a...
Just looked up Mr.Brooks record in a bit more detail.Didn't realise what a top drawer horse he was.July Cup,L'Abbeye.Top class.I seperated them for the reason's you gave,the style's are so different.As you said,all left handed,Man O'War only on dirt and even when Secretariat raced on turf it was very fast going compared to the British tracks.Man O' War was revered at the time as simply unbeatable and his defeat is one of the biggest injustices in U.S racing history.Secretariat's record..cont..
Sunline run the Doncaster with 58kg, run a line through that,it is an tremendous amount of respect from the handicapper to weight her up to 59.5kg to put 1.5kg more on her than Sunline speaks volumes about her class SP...no denying that!
RIP BC. Legendary
No need for an apology, you make a couple of valid points, I have come to understand the tracks are different in the U.K and I also knew S.P was an aussie,..the race I was referring to was his last race against Cirrus..they did run through the first 3 over 40's one of them furlongs a 14.25 the others 2 13.6 or around there somewhere with out going back and double checking them.. when you consider Frankel ran his last furlong around 11.96 and Cirrus probably a shade over 12.3..(con)
..cont..that Black Caviar has that power about her as well and eventhough she underperformed at Ascot she still outclassed them when travelling on the bridle.Her Lightening Stakes win earlier this year was astonishing with a 10 second furlong and she still won comfortably.Great mare.
Thanks for that. Great champions do this. They perform when they are not right. Black Caviar is a great champion.
For those wanting to know Black Caviar had a trial today in a field of 10 horses came out of the widest barrier around 1 turn and won in the fastest of the day over 4furlongs by 5 lengths under a strangle hold in 45.85, she looked awesome it's on youtube somewhere? I don't know who she trailed against but the last horse was about 25 lengths out the back!
Didn't know much about her. Great engine. The second horse was a bloody good filly
As a European, I think BC cannot be judged on this run. To travel from Austrialia, run on a straight track like Ascot and put your record on the line is brave. Frankel did not go to the Breeders Cup or the Arc. I love to have seen frank v BC in the July Cup.
SYT has demonstrated he can run time up front,and has been put through the Acid test on so many front's including the handicaps and raced in so many world class races and finished with in a few lengths ..to carry 56.5 over 16f against the worlds best stayer in that year Americain who had 54kg after entering the race on a hang over after the cox plate and finish third..demonstrates his ability at the handicaps.
Hey guitar... yes, absolutely open to debate. With regards to BC she's likely to be past her absolute best, so it'll be interesting to see what she does when / if she comes back. From what I understand it's still up in the air.
match for a while Bucko but answer me one more question please. You say Helmet declined on leaving Aus, so you are saying that his UK performance was worse than his run behind Mosheen, in other words if he ran to the same level in the QA as he did against Mosheen, he would have been closer than 16.5 lengths. So according to that, you believe that Mosheen would have been within 5.5 lengths of Frankel in the QA. You also believe that Strike the Stars, who finished 3 lengths behind Mosheen in the
Just been rated joint greatest race mare or filly over the last 35 years by the international handicappers. Great news for Australian and New Zealand racing. Well respected overseas for the quality of racehorse they breed and race.
She is a pure machine ...she left her country to run against the best all over the world..you have to leave ur country to run against the best to be the best .she proved herself everywere ..
Answer me these questions then:
1. Frankel was 9 lengths off the TR, therefore would he have finished 9 lengths behind STS in his Juddmonte? Why or why not?
2. Is 206.59 as fast as physically possible Frankel can cover 10.5f around York? Was he being ridden to run the quickest time, or was he put to sleep at the end of the field, with 0 influence on the pace, only produced 3f at home and only shaken up 1f from home? Well?
I am a pom and proud Of the quality of racing we have, but if you can't appreciate the brilliance of racing elsewhere you being blinkered. Black Caviar was injured in the Diamond Jubilee and still won. Dayjur was a brilliant sprinter, but this mare is the best speedster as far as I'm concerned. Her stride makes her took much bigger than her opponents.
Off coarse home ground advantage is huge Josh, I also said bc just fell in making more of a point about horses for courses.this is at WFA, excelebration is a good horse, might have a better chance at a doncaster with 57?
In the AJC plate(18f) where phar lap raced away to a 30 length lead and eased down in the straight to win under a strangle hold the horse that was 10 lengths behind in second place was Nightmarch..one of only 6 horses ever to win the Cox Plate/Melbourne Cup double in the same year..
Haradasun won the Doncaster with only 52.5kg in 2007 and went on to win the QA in the UK.. Sunline won with 58...went on to win the Hong kong vase over the 8f..NJ 59.5kg..huge respect mate!
..fan ever since.I can't go racing very often now as where I live is far away from the better tracks,though I do agree that the smaller tracks offer a great day out.I rarely bet,though in the past did my own ratings and did very well.I gave up though because I was finding that the handicapper and myself seemed to get very similar ratings and the way I bet meant I had to have a horse with at least a certain advantage before backing it - 4lbs.I don't miss it though and simply enjoy the sport ..
Terry wrote " If Chief Singer can go from being the best miler to the best sprinter in 1984, it would be absurd to suggest the greatest horse of all time could not -my p.o.r xx."
Well done to Ireland on their one, two, three in last night`s Melbourne Cup 2017. I have long been called this and that for telling the truth but it is now official ; Oz racing is full of wood ! How can anyone be in doubt after this morning`s result. Absolute wood ! B.Gardiner2000,Bob Gardiner and B.Gardiner now know the truth. Two bob Bob has no place to hide. He can invent another username ( he has far more usernames than winners) but it`s official ; Oz racing is in a very very bad place.
Black Caviar was recognised as a world-champion racehorse, achieving a World Thoroughbred Racehorse Rankings rating of 130 in 2013, equal highest in the world with Treve. She won all 24 starts at distances from 1000m to 1400m, which included 15 Group One races, defeating world-class gallopers Hay List, Buffering, Moonlight Cloud, Crystal Lily and Star Witness.
Frankel was recognised as a world-champion racehorse, achieving WTRB rankings of 136 in 2011 and 140 in 2012, four points clear of the next highest ranking ever given to a Thoroughbred.
He won all 14 starts from 1400m to 2100m, including 9 consecutive Group One races (equalling Zenyatta's record), defeating outstanding horses like Farhh, Cirrus des Aigles, Excelebration and Nathaniel.
In the Diamond Jubilee Stakes, run on the heaviest track she had experienced, Black Caviar scraped home to beat Moonlight Cloud who disposed of notables such as Farhh, Dawn Approach, Declaration of War and Lethal Force during her career.
The courses in the UK with significant gradients, long grass and heavy loams are a genuine test of stamina and soundness irrespective of distance and are tough for American and Australian horses which race on specialised surfaces of turf, cut short on well-drained lighter soils or (in North America) dirt tracks which become mud with rain but remain firm, fast surfaces.
The closest comparison we can make between the two is over 1400m when both carried 57kgs on good tracks. The fastest time recorded for Black Caviar's wins over 1400m is 1:25:14. In his one start over 1400m, Frankel recorded 1:24:60 which is an estimated margin of 4.5 lengths better than the mare.
Taking into account the different racing environments it's reasonable to suggest that at their best, Frankel might beat Black Caviar by 6 -7 lengths over 7 furlongs but anyone claiming English and Irish thoroughbreds as the being best in the world on the back of Frankel should first consider the most significant influence in a pedigree, the grandparents. Three of the four names carry the suffix (US).
As you can tell Guitarlegend I am from the U.S!I came to England many years ago and have indirectly been involved in the sport since I was a child.My father had a small farm in Maryland and I rode ponies regularly that we reared which eventually became lead horses,the ones you see taking the race horses to post.I got involved in a small time breeding operation that bred a few winners,alas the stallion fees went ridiculous,although we did visit Danzig with a Fly So Free mare and made a..cont..
Arsenal mate just got home sorry I didn't see your earlier MSG. I had a good listen to the speed mappers and form analysts this morning about the NM and they reckon it'll be a below average pace and Barakey will lead possibly. He has missed a run but im willing to have a go at each way odds. MOC ran to 124 in the Lightning, and to me is a deserving fav, but at 2.90 I'll steer clear. What odds would Barakey be if he ran and won the Oakleigh?
That's an interesting point you make Walto and Peter Moody and O'brien have eluded to that a few times, both Mani and with SYT..there is a difference in style of training between the U.K and Australia..not so much suggesting one method is better than the other, but it is evidential some horses respond differently too them..Manighar in the U.K was trained more dour and aimed up at the Melbourne Cup ..he's starts here prior to the appointment of Peter Moody was quite ordinary.
It'll be great to see the great mare at Royal Ascot and show us the three to four length better horse she is than the one who won last year. Talking of great mares Makybe Diva is a legend. To win one Melbourne Cup is a great achievement but three on the bounce. The Cox Plate to boot.
Imagine if she didn't injury herself mid race. Would be 5 lengths as usual
Really this win is spectacular by Black Caviar. We will only appreciate it more & more as time goes on. Moonlight Cloud is a champion who has proven the form time & again with multiple Gr.1 wins.
Group 1-winning miler Canford Cliffs will stand at Blue Gum Farm in Victoria from this year. Canford Cliffs was retired to stud last year, and is currently standing his first season at Coolmore’s County Tipperary farm, (Gr 1, 1m) at Goodwood last August. Trained in England by Richard Hannon, who has said that the colt was the best horse he had trained in over 40 years of training, Canford Cliffs won five successive races at the highest level before running second to Frankel in the Sussex Stake
I do not pretend to know enough on this subject but I read an article where the trainer of a sprinter down under named Sea Siren suggested that this colt could give Black Caviar a race. Now there always seems to be a real top sprinter on the conveyor belt in Australia and it's hard keeping track of them but I would like to know what Australian's think of this suggestion from John O'Shea (I believe that's his name). And I also heard about a horse called Mental who is perhaps running in Dubai.
Well said and there is talk of her running in the king stand and then going to stud with Frankel, I hope she does for one...what an advertisement for sport that would be.
Stayers and middle distance horses contest the M C, and you can nearly always be certain a class middle distance horse would win the race that stops a nation. Its the way the race is run. It suits a horse with a turn of foot. Makybe Diva comes to mind.
At the end of the day, Black Caviar put the cream of Europe's sprinters to the sword.
I just hope they pay her the dues in the ratings there have been some magnificent horses in the past all around the world and it's not about putting them down although I have crossed reference to them from time to time mostly to highlight what this girl has achieved because the world is starting appreciate her and in a way she belongs to all her fans abroad as well I'd be happy with a 140 for her, I think anything less is selling her phenomenal record/ winning streak short of what it deserves.
is comparing them with the standard time of other races. For example, When STS broke the track record, they were kicking up dust, I was there the ground was slightly softer when Frankel run (I was there again lol) Infact there were clumps of mud being kicked up in places though the ground was probably no worse than good. Anyway, frankel also ran across the course and was barely pushed for all but about 100 yards, and even then it was hands and heels. (Continued)
Would have liked to see Black Caviar in the UK a lot more, an excellent horse!
Ever heard the crowd noise as spontaneous and as loud as this at Ascot, particularly at the jump and finish? Experienced Ascot race-watchers please comment.
Walto theres a good example that shows your misunderstanding on the ratings in thr Juddmonte actually. St Nicholas Abbey, multiple group one winner, rated 128 and Farhh, 0 time group 1 winner, also rated 128. Where did they finish in relation to each other Walto, were they far apart as your assessment of the two horses would have them or we're they pretty much identical in terms of ability as the ratings would have you believe?
It' ll be great for racing if the great mare finished her unbeaten career back at Royal Ascot next June. Just to show us Brits she is a four length better horse than what was produced this year. After Frankel retiring we want a superstar to showcase the big meeting.
Deacon Blues is a talented sprinter, and along side Reckless Abandon would be interesting opponents to Black Caviar. But Mr Walto is correct with his last comment. Looking forward to her race tomorrow.
That he was - consistent to the point of being a handicappers dream.Use him as the benchmark of the form in any race he contested in Europe barring the Arc.He had no chance from that draw,indeed only Sakhee has won from that wide and he was no Sakhee.But as tough as nails and always gave 100%.I have no idea why people think he would have given Frankel a proper test and had at least 5 lengths to find with him.He raced Sri Putra,who was just as consistent as SYT(just to a lesser level)4 times...
... deserve to see her one more time and I think that would be enough as a whole fair well tour would be pushing it. It would be very apt if she had her last race and her 23rd win in February in the race now named in her honour and beat into second (by a respectable distance) a fellow mare called Ortensia. The team can then retire her in the knowledge that it will be a long time before a horse will surpass her winning streak (especially now Bib Bucks is injured) and before her equal.
The difference is with Handicaps is we don't allow G1 handicaps. There isn't an emphasis over here on carrying weight. A million dollars is only about £600,000 mate, the horse is worth £100,000,000+ and I think he's beat a few horses the superior of MJ anyway. That 14 second furlong mate was run through a bog, the 7f sectional for every race run on the round course that day was just as slow if not slower. As for his final furlong, it was run up the straight which was a lot drier. (Continued)
She's the joint highest rated mare of all time along with Pebbles and Miesque.In Timeform's ratings she is joint with All Along and Habibti and 1lb ahead of Pebbles.
Good luck to James Slevin with his two rides tonight. Young James is a jockey going places and I have been following him since day one. Tonight he rides one for Joseph O`Brien ! Can`t wait !
Black Caviar has put 70 kg on since her win at Ascot, she now weighs 610kg and races at 540kg, all reports are she's come back stronger, not that she needed to!
I think Mental has a good chance this week at the Dubia W/C sprint earp? I don't know much about the opposition, but his a lohnro colt on the rise should be strong at the end..not much of a price here though?
Point taken, it is hard to cross compare Black Cavair and Phar Lap along with Kingston town and Tulloch, but I think it's fair to assume ..these Quartet of horse's stand alone as our greatest, of coarse there may be 1 or 2 others, but IMO, she's the best sprinter and the only sprinter we could ever talk about in the same breath as Phar Lap, which does compliment her greatness and ability on the race track of which we may not ever see again in our life time?
Here's a stat you may find interesting comparing B/C and Choisior, Choisior who held the track record at Ascot over the 6f for 10 years ran 56.63 at flemington in the G1 LIGHTNING stakes carrying 54.5 kg, B.C ran 55.53 carrying 56.5kg both of them front running performances ..here's the dif..the track had been resurfaced and does race slower to as when Choisior won on it I think? ..B.C was coming back from the 7f and was not whipped out to the line? in lengths that's about 16 the diff?
continued... That figure was compiled not by form but by time against the others in the standard time I was talking about. Excelebration, who had a monster form figure of 135, only achieved a speed figure of 118. Suggesting over a mile, he's at his best coming off a slow pace. That would be backed up by his next highest mark of 133 also coming off a slower pace. Frankels two 10f runs, both achieved speed figures of over 130 suggesting they were both strongly run races. Continued..
...you separate the dirt horses from Frankel?I know the style is vastly different but they all have four legs and a head and tail.
Highland Reel franks the form of superstar Winx ever further when winning the Breeders Cup Turf beating Flintshire 2.5 lengths and Arc winner Found was 3rd......Highland Reel won a Grp1 before he faced Winx and won a Grp1 after he faced Winx so he was clearly in good form. Of course she beat him easily in the Cox Plate by 6 lengths and beat the 2nd horse 5 l;engths. She has remained unbeaten all year and won the WFA Championship the WS Cox Plate again this year, this time beating Hartnell 8 lengths. Hartnell is rated the equal of Flintshire in the IFHA's Longines World Horse Rankings. 10 lengths away in 4th was the last start European Grp1 winner Vadamos. Vadamos again ran 4th yesterday in the $2 million Grp1 Emirates Macknnon Stks. There's little doubt she is either the world's best or at least the equal of California Chrome
The fact that it was the 6th fastest Juddmonte of over 40 shows it was truly run, the speed ratings that Josh mentioned show it was strong, and the sectionals show it was plenty strong. It really is mind boggling when you try and imply Frankel couldn't have done what SYT did in the 09 Cox Plate. Frankel has shown he can get 2100m on his ear and he has shown he has sprinting speed to rival any but BC but you somehow believe SYT could maybe get the better of him if the dueled up front.
As the connections of Frankel roll around in there hay of stud money and the world is robbed of seeing Frankel race on into his 5 and 6 year old age...the connections of Black Caviar who bravely risked her reputation by traveling abroad to Ascot and sustaining an injury that could have seen her retire are bringing her back as a 6 year on feb 16 in the lightning stakes, putting her 22/22 on the line for all her adoring fans...three cheers for her connections who are just ordinary working folk.
Great night at Kempton yesterday ! Plenty of Pinot too ! Thanks to Harry Spiller for his tip in the last. It did not win but 20s third was much appreciated. Harry is a lovely guy, who has taken over Willie Musson`s yard in Newmarket following ole Willie`s(85 years old??) retirement. Cheaper horses but worth following through the winter.Many carry the prefix of the owner`s company ;Broughton Thermal Insulation. Thanks too, to the two Oz gentleman ; Malcolm and Fraser who tipped me Almandin for The Melbourne Cup.
Granted, that sectional for that sectional does seem slow. However, the track conditions that day were Soft to Heavy, Heavy in places. I'd presume the Heavy and the place would refer too Swinley bottom which is the lowest point on the racecourse and with the heavy rainfall prior to racing, would have been the soggiest because it's low lying ground. That slow sectional took place at Swinley bottom and suspect that the 8 to 7f sectional for each race on the round course would have been (continued)
What I find interesting across the broad spectrum of opinion here in Australia, she's the first horse to be compared beyond Kingston town and back to Phar Lap..Now as we all know that opinion is based more on our emotions and respect for her, as it's like comparing apples and oranges trying to compare her with them two...The only two apples in the same breath as her are Toddman and Vein and maybe Manikato IMO...imo my money would be on her at set weights with the 2 kilo pull would be 1 length