Thank you Marco for the great explanation. You always do a great job of breaking these complicated situations down in a very understandable way. I enjoyed learning about this, but am glad that ICA helped me get through this process so successfully and gain citizenship last year.
This specific subset of 1948 cases is exactly my status. I am a client of ICA, and this clear explanation makes me feel a bit more at ease after this ruling
Thank you for this extended explanation. It was helpful. So, what I am not clear about is will my 1948 application to the Boston consulate when I make my case in September, need to be adjudicated in the provincial court of my Italian ancestor in Potenza? Stated another way, does the Italian consulate have the authority to rule on this case without considering the Corte di Cassazione ruling? Thank you
Are you having a lawyer sue in Italy in a 1948 case or are you submitting an application to the Boston consulate using the administrative route? You can't submit an application in Boston if in your line you had a female ancestor give birth to the next in line before 1948, so your question is a bit confusing.
@@nickpapageorgio926 Sorry, I am going via the consulate route and my mother was born in 1922 while I was born in 1950, therefore, within the scope of the 1948 law.
@@jjocarbonevt Ok, so you're going the "normal" consulate route. Usually people will refer to 1948 if they have to file a lawsuit because their female ancestor gave birth to a child before 1948, so that's why I was confused. With that said, no court is going to be involved in your application since you're submitting to the consulate. The foreign ministry directs to the consulate/comuni how to interpret the JS rules and as of right now, nothing has changed in their directives. People are concerned there is a non-zero chance the foreign ministry may update their directives based on the ruling, but they are not forced to. I wouldn't worry personally in your case, since nothing may happen anyway and even if it did, Italy is so bureaucratic it could take years.
If the decision of the Italian supreme court isn't binding on lower courts, couldn't that lead to a situation where, for example, Person A applies for citizenship, is denied, and is further denied on appeal thus not being recognized as a citizen; whereas Person B applies and is successful - or is denied and then successful on appeal - and does become recognized as a citizen? Isn't that ultimately arbitrary and chaotic? Would Person A have any recourse after a denial upon appeal, based on the fact that Person B was recognized whereas they were not?
That does seem to be that case. I'm just glad I squeaked in before this issue came up (my case went to court around 2000-2001 and found out later the judge for it had a history of applying stricter interpretations of the law in this; luckily, I didn't have any problems).
It appears some applicants have now been rejected by an Italian Consulate in the US due to this ruling. @ItalianCitizenshipAssistance Are you also seeing this ruling affect those going through Consulates and not just the 1948 court cases?
That last bit about involuntarily/automatic naturalization via marriage is HUGE for me. I thought my scenario was dead in the water due to this exact scenario, but now it sounds like I still have a path forward.
So it’s like you mean if the Italian citizen ancestor If he got another country naturalised after 1912 and child is in minor then will affect the citizenship as I am correct ?
Thanks so much for this update. It doesn't help my case, but now I'm wondering if I can go through my great-grandmother instead of my great-grandfather. It was my great-grandmother who never wanted to go to America in the first place, and she's the one I want to do this for. I might save my pennies and inquire again with ICA.
I referred a friend to Marco. His dad was born in Sicily and was naturalized at age 7 and my friend was born here in the U.S. Does this mean that my friend may qualify or no?
If your friends father was naturalized before his son was born that line is cut. He may have a line though his mother depending on when and how she naturalized.
If an Italian woman married a foreigner in Italy, not in another country, did she also lose her citizenship in the same way a woman who married a foreigner abroad did? Also, under the UK law at the time, would she have automatically become a British citizen if she married an Englishman outside of the UK?
It depends if and when your grandparents naturalized. Base on what you have stated it's not enough to make a determination. My mother was born in before 1948 and I was born more than 20 years later and I am still a 1948 case.
I have a 1948 case. If my GGF naturalized while my GM was a minor, but my GGM did not until she was an adult how would that affect my case? Could my GGM just become my LIBRA?
Was the ruling SPECIFIC to 1948 cases? My case is not a 1948 case but my GF was a minor when my GGF naturalized. Are these cases affected, too? Thank you!
Literally same. GGF was 16.5 when GGF naturalized but I qualify in every other way. I have another line I can use but I’m about to temporarily move to italy.
Seems like they TH-cam video states that ruling was only for 1948 cases and it is also nonbinding and wouldn't affect what a local court is doing and how they conduct business. It was just what a Supreme Court ruled on one case...they aren't the ones deciding local matters at consulates and communes so we wouldn't have the Supreme Court unless we were a 1948 case. So I think we would be just fine as long as we go through an all male line.
@@StevenJr This is my understanding as well but the 1948 part has me a bit confused. Perhaps the ruling came from a 1948 case but could be implemented more broadly.
@@theroyalbureau there’s always that chance but I think plan to apply in Sicily and I doubt the consulates follow too closely if they aren’t known to follow Supreme Court decisions as it works differently in italy. My guess is as long as we avoid the courts and apply in italy avoiding the legal system, we should have no problem. I do have another line where my GGF naturalized after my GF became an adult in my mother’s side and my mom was born 1955 so I could use that like fairly easily…but don’t feel like starting all the paperwork all over again and spending the extra money if it won’t be a problem
There's an official publishing that gives a summary of the ruling, but it makes no reference to a female in the line (could have been a case where someone sued over the consulate wait times and had an all male line). Waiting on the full opinion to be published. That said, 1948 cases are the majority cases typically filed seeking to obtain citizenship. The lower courts don't have to use it in other cases as precedent, they are free to cite it or not cite it. As for consulate/comuni (administrative) applications, nothing has changed. The only "concern" may be if the foreign ministry at some point in the future decides to update their directives to the consulates/comuni based on this decision. However, nobody knows, but at this point nothing has changed if you're applying at a consulate/comuni.
In my case my Italian great grandfather naturalised as a UK citizen in 1947 when my grandmother was 26 years old. I don't think this ruling will affect my court case.
I am curious. My paternal grandma was half Italian. Her legal father and who we never thought otherwise not to be our biological one, I learned likely was not through ethnicity dna testing,etc. I am not sure if he ever naturalized btw, he immigrated here as a child and served in the US military and married an American. I have been told since he was my Granny's legal father I still may have a path to Italian citizenship. Now on the other hand, who I think was my biological great grandpa, was born in the US to fully Italian parents. It appears per records, they all went back to Italy at some point and remained there except for my possible GGF who came back to the US as an adult. So if I ever wanted to pursue Italian citizenship, how in the world would this play out for me again just curious. Oh and my legal great grandpa came here I think in 1910, my likely biological one was born here in 1909. Oh also, when my great grandma married my legal great grandpa, she LOST her US citizenship due to a law that was enacted in the early 1900s called the Expatriation Act. It only applied to US women. She was given her US citizenship back years later when other women took the law to court to have it overthrown and won. Wild stuff.
There is no such a thing as being "Half Italian". Italian is a nationality and a way of life and not a Race. Your Grand Mother was Italian and something else.
Expense is relative. Have you seen the costs of other countries for Golden Visas and such? $12K is a bargain. Could do it for less by handing some of the leg work yourself. Personally, I'm doing the turnkey service so the professionals can handle it correctly.
Thank you Marco for the great explanation. You always do a great job of breaking these complicated situations down in a very understandable way. I enjoyed learning about this, but am glad that ICA helped me get through this process so successfully and gain citizenship last year.
This specific subset of 1948 cases is exactly my status. I am a client of ICA, and this clear explanation makes me feel a bit more at ease after this ruling
It is also my situation. How is it going?
Thank you for update-appreciate it
Thank you guys for this valuable information.
Does your firm keep record of judges throughout Italy handling 1948 cases treating them fairly and unfairly?
Thank you for this extended explanation. It was helpful. So, what I am not clear about is will my 1948 application to the Boston consulate when I make my case in September, need to be adjudicated in the provincial court of my Italian ancestor in Potenza? Stated another way, does the Italian consulate have the authority to rule on this case without considering the Corte di Cassazione ruling? Thank you
Are you having a lawyer sue in Italy in a 1948 case or are you submitting an application to the Boston consulate using the administrative route? You can't submit an application in Boston if in your line you had a female ancestor give birth to the next in line before 1948, so your question is a bit confusing.
@@nickpapageorgio926 Sorry, I am going via the consulate route and my mother was born in 1922 while I was born in 1950, therefore, within the scope of the 1948 law.
@@jjocarbonevt Ok, so you're going the "normal" consulate route. Usually people will refer to 1948 if they have to file a lawsuit because their female ancestor gave birth to a child before 1948, so that's why I was confused.
With that said, no court is going to be involved in your application since you're submitting to the consulate. The foreign ministry directs to the consulate/comuni how to interpret the JS rules and as of right now, nothing has changed in their directives. People are concerned there is a non-zero chance the foreign ministry may update their directives based on the ruling, but they are not forced to. I wouldn't worry personally in your case, since nothing may happen anyway and even if it did, Italy is so bureaucratic it could take years.
If the decision of the Italian supreme court isn't binding on lower courts, couldn't that lead to a situation where, for example, Person A applies for citizenship, is denied, and is further denied on appeal thus not being recognized as a citizen; whereas Person B applies and is successful - or is denied and then successful on appeal - and does become recognized as a citizen? Isn't that ultimately arbitrary and chaotic? Would Person A have any recourse after a denial upon appeal, based on the fact that Person B was recognized whereas they were not?
That does seem to be that case. I'm just glad I squeaked in before this issue came up (my case went to court around 2000-2001 and found out later the judge for it had a history of applying stricter interpretations of the law in this; luckily, I didn't have any problems).
It appears some applicants have now been rejected by an Italian Consulate in the US due to this ruling. @ItalianCitizenshipAssistance Are you also seeing this ruling affect those going through Consulates and not just the 1948 court cases?
That last bit about involuntarily/automatic naturalization via marriage is HUGE for me. I thought my scenario was dead in the water due to this exact scenario, but now it sounds like I still have a path forward.
I had the exact same thoughts. I already started the process with ICA and sent a panic email before finishing the video.
Me too
So it’s like you mean if the Italian citizen ancestor If he got another country naturalised after 1912 and child is in minor then will affect the citizenship as I am correct ?
Thanks so much for this update. It doesn't help my case, but now I'm wondering if I can go through my great-grandmother instead of my great-grandfather. It was my great-grandmother who never wanted to go to America in the first place, and she's the one I want to do this for. I might save my pennies and inquire again with ICA.
We're still waiting for the full details and if this was a 1948 case. The initial summary makes no reference to a mother.
Who are you talking to
@@csabo1725you, apparently
I referred a friend to Marco. His dad was born in Sicily and was naturalized at age 7 and my friend was born here in the U.S. Does this mean that my friend may qualify or no?
If your friends father was naturalized before his son was born that line is cut. He may have a line though his mother depending on when and how she naturalized.
If you are applying through a male ancestor then the recent case does not matter, correct?
If an Italian woman married a foreigner in Italy, not in another country, did she also lose her citizenship in the same way a woman who married a foreigner abroad did?
Also, under the UK law at the time, would she have automatically become a British citizen if she married an Englishman outside of the UK?
Don't think this applies to me. My mom was born prior to 1948 but I was born after 1948 by 20 years.
It depends if and when your grandparents naturalized. Base on what you have stated it's not enough to make a determination. My mother was born in before 1948 and I was born more than 20 years later and I am still a 1948 case.
I have a 1948 case. If my GGF naturalized while my GM was a minor, but my GGM did not until she was an adult how would that affect my case? Could my GGM just become my LIBRA?
Wait I just got to the part of the video where you mention this. Looks like this is a gray area.
Was the ruling SPECIFIC to 1948 cases? My case is not a 1948 case but my GF was a minor when my GGF naturalized. Are these cases affected, too?
Thank you!
Literally same. GGF was 16.5 when GGF naturalized but I qualify in every other way. I have another line I can use but I’m about to temporarily move to italy.
Seems like they TH-cam video states that ruling was only for 1948 cases and it is also nonbinding and wouldn't affect what a local court is doing and how they conduct business. It was just what a Supreme Court ruled on one case...they aren't the ones deciding local matters at consulates and communes so we wouldn't have the Supreme Court unless we were a 1948 case. So I think we would be just fine as long as we go through an all male line.
@@StevenJr This is my understanding as well but the 1948 part has me a bit confused. Perhaps the ruling came from a 1948 case but could be implemented more broadly.
@@theroyalbureau there’s always that chance but I think plan to apply in Sicily and I doubt the consulates follow too closely if they aren’t known to follow Supreme Court decisions as it works differently in italy. My guess is as long as we avoid the courts and apply in italy avoiding the legal system, we should have no problem. I do have another line where my GGF naturalized after my GF became an adult in my mother’s side and my mom was born 1955 so I could use that like fairly easily…but don’t feel like starting all the paperwork all over again and spending the extra money if it won’t be a problem
There's an official publishing that gives a summary of the ruling, but it makes no reference to a female in the line (could have been a case where someone sued over the consulate wait times and had an all male line). Waiting on the full opinion to be published. That said, 1948 cases are the majority cases typically filed seeking to obtain citizenship.
The lower courts don't have to use it in other cases as precedent, they are free to cite it or not cite it.
As for consulate/comuni (administrative) applications, nothing has changed. The only "concern" may be if the foreign ministry at some point in the future decides to update their directives to the consulates/comuni based on this decision. However, nobody knows, but at this point nothing has changed if you're applying at a consulate/comuni.
In my case my Italian great grandfather naturalised as a UK citizen in 1947 when my grandmother was 26 years old. I don't think this ruling will affect my court case.
Your grandmother was an adult when her father naturalized. You are correct
I am curious. My paternal grandma was half Italian. Her legal father and who we never thought otherwise not to be our biological one, I learned likely was not through ethnicity dna testing,etc. I am not sure if he ever naturalized btw, he immigrated here as a child and served in the US military and married an American. I have been told since he was my Granny's legal father I still may have a path to Italian citizenship. Now on the other hand, who I think was my biological great grandpa, was born in the US to fully Italian parents. It appears per records, they all went back to Italy at some point and remained there except for my possible GGF who came back to the US as an adult.
So if I ever wanted to pursue Italian citizenship, how in the world would this play out for me again just curious.
Oh and my legal great grandpa came here I think in 1910, my likely biological one was born here in 1909. Oh also, when my great grandma married my legal great grandpa, she LOST her US citizenship due to a law that was enacted in the early 1900s called the Expatriation Act. It only applied to US women. She was given her US citizenship back years later when other women took the law to court to have it overthrown and won. Wild stuff.
There is no such a thing as being "Half Italian". Italian is a nationality and a way of life and not a Race. Your Grand Mother was Italian and something else.
I meant by ethnicity, sorry. We're American so we're mixed from a lot of different countries.@@renatomacchi2195
are the 1948 cases still extremely expensive 10-12K Thanks
5-7k euros
Expense is relative. Have you seen the costs of other countries for Golden Visas and such? $12K is a bargain. Could do it for less by handing some of the leg work yourself. Personally, I'm doing the turnkey service so the professionals can handle it correctly.
This doesn't change anything for my claim 3:30
I was born in SICILY my parents immigrated to the United States in 72 i was naturalized,can i get my dual citizenship in Italy
16:17