Deckel KF12
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 ส.ค. 2014
- A couple of months ago I bought a Deckel KF12, a 3D copying mill. At the moment I keep it in Lauritz' shop since I'm running out of shop space and he will need it for some upcoming gunsmithing projects. Here we show our first attempt at making a part with it. We're probably not doing everything right... honestly, we're still trying to figure out how to use the machine properly. However, we decided to make a video anyway, to give you a glimpse of the machine.
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Have used one of these for 30 years for all sorts of intricate 17th-18thC gun parts, fantastic machines! For your cast-iron work a D-section carbide ball-cutter at top speed will profile that block in your film in a matter of minutes, also you could easily achieve that at 1 to 1 from the original part. You will eventually ask yourself, "how did I ever live without a Deckel KF"! Regards, Lloyd.
Good Luck with the Deckel. You would be very smart to get a former or current "Duplcator " operator to show you how to better operate this machine. I believe you should only go slightly larger on your tracer than the cutter, you already have the 2:1 ratio set on the graduated arms on the right. Make a cut in an area you can measure, then "mike it up" and then adjust your "Tracer / Stylus " to get the size you need on the part. Also in stead of bouncing around chopping at the work most of the time it is best to start at the very top of the pattern and track around the part, counter - clockwise of course, so the cutter does not want to run away on you. Use a starting depth which works OK with your cutter size and then after going around the piece once or twice till you are not cutting anything, lower the head (against the stop provided), using the overhead ratchet mechanism to an appropriate step ( .015 to .030 or so ) then go around again , continuing down the master till you get to the bottom of your pattern. If a lot of material needs to be removed it is best to use a larger end mill / stylus combo to " rough down " the part and then switch to something smaller to get all the details and a decent finish on the work piece. Hope this helps, I do not mean to disrespect your efforts. I liked the video and am a subscriber. Thanks, Darryl
Great to see you sharing machines and workspace. More should benefit from the same arrangement. A boat builder here in Nuuk and I share many of our tools and workspaces and it has saved us a lot of money; given a lot of pleasure. Thanks for sharing.
Cool machine Mattias. Nice video too, thanks for sharing.
Adam
What a fantastic and beautiful machine! Thanks for sharing!
Mattias, it's great seeing you and Lauritz working together. I enjoyed seeing the mill making some cuts. Looking forward to the finished product.
Thanks....13
Awesome machine you have built yourself quite a good collection of machines another great video thanks for sharing your find
Very cool machine, nice to see one in action.
Thank You
Matt C.
That's a lot of work! Great looking machine.
You are very generous. Very cool machine.
Abom sent me to your tube. Great information, and glad to see the other side of the pond, from here in West Virginia.
Mattias,
Thanks for a very interesting video about your exceptional copying mill. Hope you will show more in the future.
Very interesting machine. I have never seen one so thanks for making the vid.
very interesting, nice equipment, thanks for the video.
Great video. I like how manual the process is
Great vid!....I have always wondered how they work out....have looked at a few listed here lately....you guys have some great machines there....I think maybe that I will move!.....actually.....I might have came from there 150 years ago!....sort of...my ancestors!....keep it up, I will be watching!
Mattias,
Very interesting machine. Thank you for the video. Good luck finishing the part.
Dave
*Only 18* 👇👇👇
906006.loveisreal.ru
Always wondered how those work, thanks for showing. I second more detailed view of how the machine moves and works
thanks for sharing the project!
I just found your Channel Sir. Excellent work!
Very nice machine and demonstration!
Thanks!
Awesome vid guys.
Very nice machine, you sure could make some nice custom parts. Thank you for sharing. Randy
Very interesting, thank you !
Anything branded "Deckel" catches my attention, high quality gear. I would have started with a larger roughing endmill and an oversize tracer. Great work and thanks for the video!
You have some nice machines.
So awesome!
I see you both have the same barber :) . Great video..
I learned everything I needed to know about running one of those in the first 30 minutes.... they're a lot of work. Not like a Bridgeport just set the power feed going, and take a seat.
Very interesting thanks for sharing.
It would be awesome to see some more about this machine. I have recently acquired a Scripta milling engraver and it is very hard to find information about these machines. Thanks for the video!
CNC with human computing. Very interesting video of a beautifull machine and the first one I have seen in action. This could have been made in a real CNC fast as Heck but what's the fun in that ? Glad to see young people keeping the trade and them old machines alive. Thanks you guys :) Mycket bra :) Hilsen Eric på andre siden av Kjølen
good video , operated one in hamilton CANADA in1990 working for magna international , great for playing around if time is not a matter . todays modern CNC machines are 100 times faster if not 200 times (mazak toshiba ) . i still get asked about this machine and its great for 1 offs .
Stephan G would love your shop.
Love the machine and thank you for making and posting the video. I think the speed of the machine probably sealed it's fate, when compared to the modern CNC machines.
Its still great for copying existing parts, so if you don't have a CAD drawing and it has lots of lofted surfaces then this might still be the way to go. Ive had an interest in copy mills for a long time as it has and is being used by other gunsmiths to copy broken gun parts that often are very time consuming to measure and machine.
Lauritz Saxtrup
I have a friend who has an engineering firm with several cnc's and he probably spends three quarters of his time drawing parts to make which makes one off jobs very expensive, something like this would make life so much easier and probably quicker aswell
Interesting machine. I bet it's awesome with aluminum and plastics that can be milled faster.
Colin ;-)
Interesting video - not very often I see a machine in use and I say to myself " you don't this Petey"
LOL - enjoy Mattias.
Very nice machine, it looks like you did a great job on the repairs to it, I'm sure it will come in very handy for how you will use it. That other milling machine you were using to do the roughing looks like a very stout machine.
Nice video ..... Mike
Calidad 👍🇻🇪
Very interesting viseo, Mattias! Thank you. May I ask, what's "the Swedish equivalent of Ebay"?
Saludos desde Colombia
Nice to see the Deckel's at work! Have you had the time to test the lathe compound yet?
Been using a Deckel for over 35 years for moldmaking. A dinosaur, but still useful.
Hi- Any chance you would be willing to share some info about mold making on one of these Deckel Machines. I am a glass blower and recently purchased a KF 12 in hopes of making some molds for glass.
Central Soccer We used them to make blow molds from aluminum up to berrillium copper which is quite hard , 30 on the Rockwell C scale. The two tables should stay connected at all times as (manic4u2) below says. I used single lip cutters mostly with aluminum as the speed is quite high on the machine. Mine had a replaceable lower geared spindle that I occasionally used. I would think books are still available for this equipment, The one I used at my uncle's shop even had a head you could install that would drive three cutters at once. We used that to cut electrodes from graphic for our EDM machine. If you haven't already notice, this thing can go nuts on you ! lol
38sportcoat Even though this is my machine, I don't know much about how to use it. I know it can do a lot of tricks so when I found it for sale at a good price I bought it, but I realize I have a lot to learn... I haven't found much information about using 3D copy mills on the Internet, so if someone has information to share please go ahead!
Sir i just want sell my 3D pentograph machine, just give me a call
Greetings, this machine has a rule for milling in a straight line or also fix the arm and spawn with the advance of the table, it saves so much time.
Very interesting machine although slow but then speed isn't every thing, by the way if you are considering buying a Bridgeport miller and looking for some were to store it I have room in my little workshop in the UK lol,atb John.
Been 5 years since this video. Do you still have the machine? The one I operated had a small tool cutter grinder to make/sharpen radius nose cutters to match mandrel radiius. The Deckel also had a multi directional hydraulic assist so you did not have to muscle it around. Edit: Plastic injection molding. If a phone handle core or case would get injured and welded, I would set up the master and trace the form to mill off the weld to blend.
There is a single lip tool cutter that comes with your pantograph. I used this machine tool for many years in die sinking H13 forging dies. It will remove material much faster with homemade single lip carbide cutters.
I would love to get my hands on one of these again eh... Ü
Interesting machine, but not one for my workshop. Good and interesting video
manic4u2 is correct you can see it working in the correct way on my channel. I can only imagine breaking a lot of tools running freehand. have upgraded to cnc since then. . nice old machine .
I used one of these in 1966 tool and die making.
Boa tarde no apalpador ele trabalha com uma correia?
This is a good copy milling machine. Please inform me the price and the copy range. Thanks.
It would be interesting if you could make a video just showing more of the arm mechanism that transfers the motions.
Sure, I can make a video tonight if im not too busy.
Sorry for the delay, watch?v=kA6OcMsApYU
Hi. I just bought a kf 12 resently. Do you have any information on the slide part that hold the spindle. Mostly lubrication and dis assembly. I have a Manuel but it does not cover that at all.
Also looking for some of the tooling if you have any advice. I live in cape town south Africa. So ebay seldome work and most companies dont ship to SA.
I am thinking, what is needed here is a number of sizes of end mills. the first roughing cut, should be large, moving down to this tiny mill as the object nears final shape.
Actually there is a Deckel single lip tool grinder accessory for this machine. All you need are HSS or carbide blanks from which you make your own cutters eh... Ü
Great video. I have seen a device like this before, I think on outsidescrewball channel. Not the same brand of course and I don't think it was that large. Anyway the video was very interesting. Thanks for sharing.
tengo un pantógrafo dekel kf2s a 440vac ya pase 2 motores a 220 vac me falta el del porta herramientas como lo hago ? gracias por su respuesta. chao
That is definitely a cool machine, not as cool as a spray welder though!
Great score on the Deckel. I like to do some gunsmithing also here in America. What are the gun laws like in your country?
I have a Deckel KF12 that I also use to make gun parts. Where are you located in the U.S.?
Looking for drag table and circle attachment if you know of any? Thanks KF1
Fun machine, but aren't these usually used to produce intricate molds? I think then you could easily justify the time, for a simple part such as that nut maybe not the best way. I guess it is good learning and practice! It is bound to be a fair learning curve to getting proficient at that machine. Best of luck and I am jealous of your personal heat treat oven. :-)
They can be had for not all that much money, this one looks a bit ugly on the outside but it hasn't been used much. I built a new control for it so that I can set and read the temp digitally. I can make a video about it if you like.
You can also copy 1 to 1----no programming required ----sometimes it is not practical to use a juggernaught to move a teachest---manual machines in the right hands are just as quick ----and more forgiving
.....1to1? I hope you have strong arms! 😨
Scale 1 to 1.5? Thanks!
would a cnc mill do the same thing?? maybe faster??
These machines were often used to make molds with irregular shapes and yes, CNC made them obsolete for that purpose. If you construct something new and draw it in the computer then you obviously use CNC to make it. However, when you have an original part with irregular shape and want to copy it, what do you do? Before the CNC can make it you will have to spend a lot of time to measure it and program the CNC machine.
No NC code, no RS232 lines, no processing speed, no CAD model, no postprocessor, no memory capacity, and yet it can reproduce any 3D part. It can also scale the part. Probably less than +/- .05 mm (.002" in) accuracy. For MUCH less than a CNC mill.
There are 3D scanners that can make a digital model without CAD and lots of measuring. Some use lasers, some use jointed arms with angle sensors (I.e. potentiometers), and some are basically gantry routers with a touch sensor instead of a bit. I've even heard of some that can work out the 3D shape from two camera inputs.
CNC mills big enough to make a part like in the video can be built for $2000 to $3000 including the cost of the manual mill that gets converted. Check out some of the older Hossmachine channel videos for CNC conversion of a Grizzly G0704 bench top mill, or Kronos Robotics web site for info on converting an even smaller mill - KRMc01.
-- Mike
i c... thanks
Heath Gallagher
I live in Central Oregon and have one of these Deckle KF12's that I use for making obsolete gun and boat parts. Still learning on it everyday but it has many uses for much less than the price of a comparable CNC of equal capabilities and it looks way cooler too!
So - How does a Pennsylvania license plate get on a shop wall in Sweden?
You own a truck while studying in Pittsburgh, PA. :)
htral you did not notice these guys speak better English than many people in the USA? And with an American accent, you don't get that in Britain.
Lauritz Saxtrup What did you study?
Matt C.
Oh, I studied gunsmithing at Pennsylvania gunsmith school.
Lauritz Saxtrup Very cool, Good luck with gunsmith and the Dekel, look forward to seeing some video's.
Dinosaurs of the past. I worked for a company back in the late 70's to early 80's that had 4 of these and 4 smaller KF21s. We used them to make aerospace molds. They were at the time really nice machines but have been replaced by CNC machines today, thankfully. Someone here mentioned that the finish was better than a CNC. Not even close. Those machines produced a terrible finish by today's standards. We make molds today on CNC's that require almost no polishing. Those machines where a real pain to use, literally. You had to stand up close while the hot chips went in your face and down your shirt. I have scars on my forearms to prove it. Now you make models in the computer, away from the machines. One guy now does the work of 4 toolmakers who used the Deckels and does it faster with more accuracy.
That's a nice machine that looks to be in very good condition but can I say, with respect, your not using it correctly? You need the 'Line-by-line attachment and it's clamp fitted so that the pantograph only moves laterally and vertically. Then you need to have the table and drag table( which, by the way, it looks from the video you have stacked on the workpiece table where-as it should be sitting on the right-hand table where it will slide quite easily whilst being 'dragged' by the left-hand table) connected together so that by turning the big wheel on the front of the left-hand table by small increments the workpiece and pattern move together progressively towards the back of the machine. These machines came (originally) with various bits of ancillary equipment most important and necessary of which was a 'Single lip' cutter grinder (which was a work of art in itself. lol) but also included a 'Pattern making attachment' , a 'Mirror Image' table and a large bracket that held the alternative, 'heavy-duty', roughing-out spindle rigidly in one place whilst the co-joined tables were maneuvered horizontally around the fixed stylus. This was achieved by plugging in an electronic stylus that had a sort of trumpet shaped end that the operator looked into and attempted to keep a black dot in the middle of a lit white circle that would be 'nudged' off-centre when it came into contact with the 'model/pattern'. 'Cuts' were fed by hand at .050" a time by turning the large black wheel on the front of the machine thus lifting both tables simultaneously. The stylus was of a larger dia.(+ .120"?) than the cutter thus leaving about .060" for (semi) finishing with a singe-lip HSS cutter that left about .006" for hand finishing. I operated one of these machines as a kid in the .50s where the Tool and Die company I served my apprenticeship at bought 4 of them, 'brand new' + all(!) the attachments. Used properly, you could really make these machines 'dance'. Hope this helps.
Hmm.. the line-by-line attachment is probably built into the machine, the small crank above the pantograph arms does that.
I got a whole bunch of accessories when I bought the machine. I have yet to figure out what most of it is for. One thing I got is a big cone to look into, that might be the trumpet shaped thing you describe. I don't have any kind of mirror-image tables, but I think that would be pretty useful.
No.
No; the LBL (line-by-line) attachment locks the pantograph so that it will only move left/right then the workpiece/patern is advanced incrementaly (using the large wheel on the front of the machine which, if the drag-table is connected will advance both at the same time) from front to back. the small crank is the down feed for when the panto isn't locked and you follow a line all aroung the workpiece and then feed down another .005" or so. The LBL is an attachment that has 3 fingers of different lengths and is held by bolts to the main body of the machine. It doesn't look like much so it may have been lost. but it is essential to the working of the machine.
manic4u2
Hmm You sure seem to know what you're talking about... Do you have a picture of this LBL attachment so I know what to look for, or even a picture or video clip of it being used?
If I connect the drag table, and move the tables simultaneously toward the back while milling one line at a time, wouldn't that make it impossible to copy in a scale other than 1:1?
I'm aware that I really have a lot to learn before I can use this machine properly - but then again... I'm not a machinist, I'm only a doctor!
Hi Matt looking at your 'vid', at 5:43 it looks as though you actually already have it on the machine. It has 3 'fingers' that fold out so that the pantograph is held against whichever one is suitable for the operation in hand. It's that thing at the back, held on by two black bolts. What you may be missing is the small clamp that hold it rigidly so that the 'panto' only moves up/down-left/right. See if you can pull the fingers down? It's the reason some of the paint is missing on the left-hand large grey hinge. I could draw a pic' of the clamp but how could I send it to you? I don't mean to sound like a 'Clever-Dick'. I'm sorry you seem to have got that impression. I earned my living for 20 years operating one of these machines. I'm just trying to help
Put on some safety ear muffs. Hurts my ears just watching your video. Very nice work btw.
Poor man's cnc
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