Wow, you never fail at having the best deep dive discussions, whether it is Why Read or today’s live on GGK. As soon as I finish this dualogy I will come back for the 2 hours of spoilers!
Glad to see you are all well and what a fantastic discussion! Some character backgrounds, that I considered possibly a bit spoiler-ish until finishing “Lord of Emperors”: Leontes/Valerius III: Mix of the Byzantine General Belisarius (who together with Justinian often is given the moniker “The Last Roman”, as he lead the forces on the ground that reconquered North Africa, most of Italy and parts of Spain). Here GGK is clearly riffing on a popular alternative history question: “What if Belisarius either became Byzantine Emperor or recreated an independent Western Roman Empire” as he frequently were suggested to do, but loyally refused (only to still lose Justinian’s favor in the end…), and the Byzantine Emperors Heraclius (General who deposed his predecessor, famous for his religious fervor in battle (some consider him a precursor to the Crusaders), tried to unify the Church from its Schisms and defeated the Sassanids many times, only to lose all his gains and several important provinces to the invading Rashidun Caliphate…) & Leo III the Isaurian (who defended the Empire against the later Umayyad Caliphate and promoted Iconoclasm, banning and destroying religious icons, considering them a violation of the Second Commandment and the cause for why God had allowed the Muslim conquests to happen) Gisel: Mix of the Ostrogothic Queen Amalsuintha (who unlike Gisel WAS successfully assassinated by a conspiracy among her nobles, a few months after she inherited the throne, giving Justinian and General Belisarius their Casus Belli to reconquer Italy from the Ostrogoths) and her daughter Mathaswintha, whom Belisarius brought with him back to Constantinople, where she later as a widow married Germanus, a general and cousin (and possible heir) of Justinian, had he not died of illness, so another inspiration for Leontes) Pertennius of Eubulus: Procopius of Caesarea, historian and secretary of General Belisarius, who publicly wrote flattering histories of Justinian’s Wars and Constructions… and most likely wrote “The Secret History”, where Justinian & Theodora get their reputations totally slaughtered as a vulgar, insatiable, unscrupulous, hypocritical & garish couple and Belisarius as emasculated by his unfaithful wife (a former actress colleague and gal pal of Theodora) Lysippus: John the Cappadonian, whose harsh taxes caused the Nika Riots in the Hippodrome and whom Procopius claimed tortured people for pleasure and extortion at an almost industrial scale and spent the wast sums on extravagance and debauchery Shirin: The name of the Christian Wife of the Sassanid Emperor Khosrow II (grandson of Justinian’s eternal rival Khosrow I) and to whom he gifted the Holy Cross Relic he had captured from the Byzantines, until Byzantine Emperor Heraclius recaptured it in his seige of the Sassanid Capital. She and Khosrow II’s love story is retold in several Persian Epics and Romances, such as the National Epic Poem “Shahnameh” and the 12th Century Tragic Romance bearing their name, “Khosrow & Shirin”!
I just finished the duology! I am so happy the cartoonish aristos finally become real & emotional towards the end. I loved that it got beautifully serious. For me the turning point of the duology was the chariot race in Lord of Emperors, at the point GGK returned to 5 star quality after disappearing for me once Crispin arrived in Sarantium.
Great discussion. Without spoilers..what did you think of the two characters who end up together? For me it didn't have the building blocks one would expect in a romantic relationship. It was unbelievable and convenient. Having said that, they seemed to respect each other and might have eventually been a believable couple given more time.
@@dianneeagle4686 thank you! I completely agree! I didn't feel like there was enough of a connection between the two characters for me to find it believable. They shared one experience in common, but I didn't find it enough to convince me.
So sad I missed this! I was in Western NC when Helene came through and I lost power and cellular, hopefully I can catch the next GGK deep dive discussion 😢
There are multiple species of dolphins indigenous to the area around the real Byzantium and they would have been a common sight from Constantinople in the Bosporus, Sea of Marmara, Black Sea etc. There’s also a coat of arms in the Hagia Sophia featuring twin dolphins.
Pertennius is supposed to be an analogue to Procopius, using the idea of The Secret History becoming the actual history in Sarantium. In other words Pertennius wears his grudge against the emperor openly vs. Procopius’ secret antipathy toward Justinian and Theodora in real life.
Catching up from where I left off...I am team Jake, that poem means absolutely nothing to me 😂😂😂 but I'm glad it touched you so much, Johanna! Unfortunately you are still not forgiven for liking Midgana more than this.
First of all, thank you so much for taking the time to watch this extremely long discussion 😅. Secondly, Kay was very intentional about Yeats’s poem influencing his writing in this duology. He wrote in the Acknowledgements: “I imagine it is obvious from the title of this work, but I owe a debt of inspiration to William Butler Yeats, whose meditations in poetry and prose on the mysteries of Byzantium led me there and gave me a number of underlying motifs along with a sense that imagination and history would be at home together in this milieu.” I think both poems are stunning. While certainly a bit cryptic, the symbolic parallels to story elements and themes are evident: the fire, mortality, the emperor, the birds, the space between death and life, what’s captured in monuments, dolphins, and the dome. While Tigana had more overt cringey moments and the pacing was not my favorite in the second half, the emotional highs hit harder for me than this duology. 😂
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Another GGK entry I need to check out! Managed to watch the non-spoiler section and found it so intriguing. Thanks all for doing this deep dive! ❤
I hope you love it! For me, it did not reach the emotional heights some of Kay’s other books did, but still well worth reading! ❤️
Wow, you never fail at having the best deep dive discussions, whether it is Why Read or today’s live on GGK. As soon as I finish this dualogy I will come back for the 2 hours of spoilers!
Thank you, Heidi! I hope you enjoy the rest of The Sarantine Mosaic! 😊
Glad to see you are all well and what a fantastic discussion!
Some character backgrounds, that I considered possibly a bit spoiler-ish until finishing “Lord of Emperors”:
Leontes/Valerius III: Mix of the Byzantine General Belisarius (who together with Justinian often is given the moniker “The Last Roman”, as he lead the forces on the ground that reconquered North Africa, most of Italy and parts of Spain). Here GGK is clearly riffing on a popular alternative history question: “What if Belisarius either became Byzantine Emperor or recreated an independent Western Roman Empire” as he frequently were suggested to do, but loyally refused (only to still lose Justinian’s favor in the end…), and the Byzantine Emperors Heraclius (General who deposed his predecessor, famous for his religious fervor in battle (some consider him a precursor to the Crusaders), tried to unify the Church from its Schisms and defeated the Sassanids many times, only to lose all his gains and several important provinces to the invading Rashidun Caliphate…) & Leo III the Isaurian (who defended the Empire against the later Umayyad Caliphate and promoted Iconoclasm, banning and destroying religious icons, considering them a violation of the Second Commandment and the cause for why God had allowed the Muslim conquests to happen)
Gisel: Mix of the Ostrogothic Queen Amalsuintha (who unlike Gisel WAS successfully assassinated by a conspiracy among her nobles, a few months after she inherited the throne, giving Justinian and General Belisarius their Casus Belli to reconquer Italy from the Ostrogoths) and her daughter Mathaswintha, whom Belisarius brought with him back to Constantinople, where she later as a widow married Germanus, a general and cousin (and possible heir) of Justinian, had he not died of illness, so another inspiration for Leontes)
Pertennius of Eubulus: Procopius of Caesarea, historian and secretary of General Belisarius, who publicly wrote flattering histories of Justinian’s Wars and Constructions… and most likely wrote “The Secret History”, where Justinian & Theodora get their reputations totally slaughtered as a vulgar, insatiable, unscrupulous, hypocritical & garish couple and Belisarius as emasculated by his unfaithful wife (a former actress colleague and gal pal of Theodora)
Lysippus: John the Cappadonian, whose harsh taxes caused the Nika Riots in the Hippodrome and whom Procopius claimed tortured people for pleasure and extortion at an almost industrial scale and spent the wast sums on extravagance and debauchery
Shirin: The name of the Christian Wife of the Sassanid Emperor Khosrow II (grandson of Justinian’s eternal rival Khosrow I) and to whom he gifted the Holy Cross Relic he had captured from the Byzantines, until Byzantine Emperor Heraclius recaptured it in his seige of the Sassanid Capital. She and Khosrow II’s love story is retold in several Persian Epics and Romances, such as the National Epic Poem “Shahnameh” and the 12th Century Tragic Romance bearing their name, “Khosrow & Shirin”!
I always appreciate your background knowledge! Thank you!
I just finished the duology! I am so happy the cartoonish aristos finally become real & emotional towards the end. I loved that it got beautifully serious.
For me the turning point of the duology was the chariot race in Lord of Emperors, at the point GGK returned to 5 star quality after disappearing for me once Crispin arrived in Sarantium.
I'm so glad it paid off for you, Heidi!
Great discussion. Without spoilers..what did you think of the two characters who end up together? For me it didn't have the building blocks one would expect in a romantic relationship. It was unbelievable and convenient. Having said that, they seemed to respect each other and might have eventually been a believable couple given more time.
@@dianneeagle4686 thank you! I completely agree! I didn't feel like there was enough of a connection between the two characters for me to find it believable. They shared one experience in common, but I didn't find it enough to convince me.
So sad I missed this! I was in Western NC when Helene came through and I lost power and cellular, hopefully I can catch the next GGK deep dive discussion 😢
I’m sorry you went through that! The Helene destruction and aftermath is devastating. I’m glad you were able to stay safe!
There are multiple species of dolphins indigenous to the area around the real Byzantium and they would have been a common sight from Constantinople in the Bosporus, Sea of Marmara, Black Sea etc. There’s also a coat of arms in the Hagia Sophia featuring twin dolphins.
Very cool! Thanks for sharing!
Pertennius is supposed to be an analogue to Procopius, using the idea of The Secret History becoming the actual history in Sarantium. In other words Pertennius wears his grudge against the emperor openly vs. Procopius’ secret antipathy toward Justinian and Theodora in real life.
Interesting! I love how Kay borrows from these stories and spins his own retelling.
Catching up from where I left off...I am team Jake, that poem means absolutely nothing to me 😂😂😂 but I'm glad it touched you so much, Johanna! Unfortunately you are still not forgiven for liking Midgana more than this.
First of all, thank you so much for taking the time to watch this extremely long discussion 😅. Secondly, Kay was very intentional about Yeats’s poem influencing his writing in this duology. He wrote in the Acknowledgements:
“I imagine it is obvious from the title of this work, but I owe a debt of inspiration to William Butler Yeats, whose meditations in poetry and prose on the mysteries of Byzantium led me there and gave me a number of underlying motifs along with a sense that imagination and history would be at home together in this milieu.”
I think both poems are stunning. While certainly a bit cryptic, the symbolic parallels to story elements and themes are evident: the fire, mortality, the emperor, the birds, the space between death and life, what’s captured in monuments, dolphins, and the dome.
While Tigana had more overt cringey moments and the pacing was not my favorite in the second half, the emotional highs hit harder for me than this duology. 😂