X-RAY AI | ARMA 3 can AI really see through trees?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ต.ค. 2024
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"This video is created using games from Bohemia Interactive.
See www.bistudio.com for more information."
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Good video. I love it when I learn new stuff about ArmA :)
Jester814 thanks for stopping by dude, love the channel
+Jester814 ArmA is a wrong spelling, because it's not "Armed Assault" but just the latin word for "weapons". Here you go, you've learned something about arma :D
...but wait... it seems to be both. Clever.
The particular case of the tree trunks may be a bug of sorts. We'll investigate that. In general, it's good to be aware of a few more things about Arma AI:
* The AI's hearing is indeed simulated. So it can detect targets that are audible or performing audible actions and yet out of sight completely.
* The AI can become aware of targets without specifics. That means it can detect 'some person' before it learns it's a 'CSAT rifleman'. It becomes aware in the first case, but only starts engaging in the second case.
* The AI will predict movement of targets it loses. When the target runs behind cover and stops, the AI may continue scanning in the direction of movement.
* There is a lot more, so maybe we should do some kind of overview video one day :-)
Joris-Jan van 't Land That would be great, i think helping people understand would reduce the amount of times people cry ZEUS lol thanks for stopping by the channel.
Joris-Jan van 't Land Don't forget how ai can see through 10 shrubs and have unlimited grenade launcher grenades. :^)
+TheDarthwafflez thats just not true kid.
+Björn Silfverberg the grenade launcher part is true.. i usually play one squad AI vs my squad Human Controlled AI and i set them up identically in terms of skill and the type of soldiers and i make sure there are no ammo boxes around so that if you are out of ammo you are done. One enemy AI grenadier shot 10 rounds at my squad the 10th one killed me so i couldn't see if he fired more. No grenedier with standard version with no mods has 10 HE Grenades for his launcher. Atleast i'm completely unaware of this.
Maybe AI "see" hitboxes rather than models and if hitboxes are larger than actual models, they can stick out from behind thin trees and thus AI can see them. Everything tested in your video was far wider than trees.
***** I've never noticed the hitboxes to be any different to the models, so that can't be it
TheJason434 Not per say the hitbox, but the box that encapsulates the players. The box that you see when LT places an object down. THAT box is much bigger then the object itself. So that could be the reason.
*****
Hitboxes don't really exist in Arma, they're just a low LOD playermodel, not split up like in other games. The way trees are made in Arma you need to include another mesh that blocks AI vision, this is split into categories of visibility (0-100%). If an AI sees you at 50% visibility it will take him twice as long to identify the target (hence the "contact MAN, reports sometimes, when they've seen a person but not identified as enemy yet). The same applies at night where the overall visibility drops, they do the same thing.
However, if they see ANY part of the enemy (even a finger) at ANY visibility they will identify a PERSON, give it a few seconds and it will be detected as hostile.
Lyonard Maduro What I did is try it myself but using Communication towers placed using Zeus. These are about the same width as the trees that Luetin used and the AI didn't see each other when I ran the same tests. They where place about the same distance and all.
To check the AI would attacked each other, when I removed all 3 towers and in about a second, the fire fight started.
zathras0 hmm, it must be something with the trees then. Very interesting indeed.
Why would i recommend Luetin09 to anybody new to the series?
Simply because his videos show what you can do without being bound to strikt clans/groups and in the more "open" approach of arma
that makes him essential for new arma players as his videos will teach new players how to have fun in ArmA 3 quite fast
I take a look at the AI in ARMA and how they see other players and AI through objects
***** amazing video, really well done and thorough. explains so much
So the grass is safe cheers luetin usually I avoid any vegetation as cover usually everyone's first words are find rock cover when in the A.I shot at you
redeyesi x the tall grass, he didn't show the bushes though. It would have been nice to see their reactions with bushes too.
Nice video Luetin. I don't play Arma but it was very interesting to see how AI react in certain situations. This will be good and help me understand while watching ur Friday streams.
trued_2 he should of showed the bushes, I can't tell how many times I took cover in a bush.
it's good that Bi gave us the tools to show how shyte their Ai is.
11:11 and the AI won! suprise xd
PrjctMinecraftiaFan yeah I noticed that myself when I played back my recording. Misspoke.
***** but nice video anyway :3
PrjctMinecraftiaFan To be fair, Luetin was controlling the one unit's movement so at that point it isn't completely AI. Just the firing of the weapon part is. =P
Old Men Gaming i guess you're right :p
sherlock
"It's fairly unfair..."
-Luetin 2015
It's an interesting point. We have all gotten used to ARMA with it's current maps and how the AI respond/interact. Tree cover isn't all that dense so if you are patient and observant you can USUALLY deal with the AI appropriately. But if the new map uses the same mechanics with the trees then it will likely be impossible to compete in the jungles. Curious to see how it works out.
Yeah bohemia really has to fix this. I think they have to if they are going to release a jungle map.
a map like the jungle from the first killzone would be neat.
It still hasn't been fixed.
Interesting video, it was tested last year, and before Apex, may be worth doing a similar test with the latest version. However... the first ones with the trees i think make sense. If I was the blufor unit, I would have heard footsteps at that range and even the AI shouting over radio, so I would have gone prone and faced that direction listening out for any further movement.
the second tree test was better, as the blufor unit didn't move, and opfor guy managed to spot him (unless blufor guy said something over radio after hearing strange footsteps maybe)
Awesome video! :)
From what I have seen and testen, the AI is very much improved within the new Apex expansion. They will even hold fire, till they flanked around a tree and are closer in proximity of the target.
I love Arma to bits, but the AI is just too stupid, I think your video will prove very useful to the developers, I hope they are watching!! Apex has not improved AI whatsoever which is disappointing.
Nice little investigation, quite surprising indeed. Think I'm going to have to try some AI experiments of my own.
Already said this on skype but will repost for viewers...
It seems that the devs have made is so AI see through materials that can be destroyed, that way the AI doesn't have to go through a major change when, for example a tree is knocked over or a building in destroyed. The fact they don't see through the bush/reeds gives that way...
The amount of simulation in ARMA that goes on per second (look how vehicle simulation works and just how much crap they calculate when driving).. they will likely not change how this works.. with the new map, I suspect they will avoid the issue by making the jungle indestructible meaning solid objects and materials thus, no seeing through them. This would also be supported by the fact that if the jungle was destructible, FPS would be dog shit (Even compared to how bad it is currently)
***** But the wall that LT used in the test was destructible, yet the AI couldn't see through it.
I'd be surprised if the trees can't be knocked down, although the only time that would be a problem would be if you're in a tank, but tanks shouldn't be a jungles so I guess it's not so bad.
TheJason434 the AI did target when on the outside wall, and when in the int wall, he was only aware... but that building, in all my time in arma (since alpha) has never been destructible
TheJason434 I suspect it has nothing to do with the destructibility but rather the object itself. The tree objects are simply empty objects and isn't solid. while the other objects were made solid(even the grass)
Lyonard Maduro How could the grass be a solid object? bullets go right through it thus meaning there isn't any "solidness" to it
***** Yeah, I see my stupidity lol. Another theory I had IS more realistic. This is what I posted on another comment:
" Not per say the hitbox, but the box that encapsulates the players. The box that you see when LT places an object down(behind a tree you can see the box sticking out). THAT box is much bigger then the object itself. So that could be the reason."
As a sniper in coop i sneak alot and i found out that if you are in crouch stance or lower and moving slowly (W+S keys) AI wont spot you untill you get rly close,around 5-10 meters.
Very interesting experiment. Really shows the different ways that AI tend to wreck people in PvE.
Honestly though, if I were to create an AI that was to adapt to every situation you put them in, the results would be pretty much the same as in Arma.
Default CSAT skill values are pretty insane, that may be contributing to his near predator like senses.
Unrelated.. but have you checked out the Fps game 'Dirty Bomb' Lt? I think it used to be called 'Extraction' or something. Anyway, it's allot of fun but also very team/objective based. Bit like a mix between Tf2, Brink and BF4 Rush
The biggest problem is the absolutely instantaneous reaction and 100% pin point better than a laser beam accuracy. Even a super skill god tier human isnt going to be that immediate nor that point laser accuracy.
Playing vs these AI is just like playing against a player who is sitting there using an automated aim bot.
Ya top it off with our body armor being utterly useless and it makes for a very frustrating experience.
I guess i won't be hiding behind trees any more
surprising really. I thought the only OP aspect was the grass draw distance, but this is shocking. I would expect there to be an update with the new terrain coming to change this behavior.
I AM however pleased with the way they react in all the other situations you outlined here. Quite realistic IMO.
Out of curiosity did you test at all with different stances? eg. is someone prone or crouched behind a tree more difficult to spot for the Ai.
On the plus side it gives a tense aspect to moving through woodland areas. You really need to scout ahead with optics before advancing.
Note to self: Stop using trees for cover.
This should be linked in a bug report as well as posted on the Bohemia forums where the devs can see it. They will respond. I see them talk to players all the time on the forums. I'd even go as far as to PM a link to this video to a few of the devs on the forums. They are nice guys and will engage in conversation with you as long as you're respectful.
With situation of x-ray through trees, I'd say it's more likely that the moving unit saw even the sightliest bit of standing enemy and engaged. Trees are not thick enough to cover the enemy standing unit and his weapon/gear.
The AIs are always aware of your position. Day or Night. Them having NVGs or not. Doesn't matter. It's scripting in the engine that prevents them from engaging unless certain circumstances are fulfilled. And this is the problem.
You can test it by putting yourself in a tower and spawn enemies around on the ground. It shouldn't be possible for them to know about you or your position but you will see that all of them are aware the second you spawn in.
Now, the obviously better solution would be that they were bounded by LOS and sounds. However, this is what we have to live with.
+BadTrip The problem that could arise from that is we might get AI that don't detect players or other AI when they should.
+Azure Caledonian A proper AI would use the same senses as we do; sight and hearing. Now, I understand that it's way less computation required if you simply cascade all locations (AI or players) and then just restrict what they are allowed to do instead of calculating LOS continuously.
awesome points!!
he could see his shadow behind the tree, you could argue.
Best way to understand AI: set up a hint loop on the AI knowsAbout player. You then will likely draw Luetin's conclusions; lie down in a bush and don't shoot to stay hidden, otherwise slow crawl only. AI shoot you if knowsAbout >= 1.5 or so.
Avoiding detection is easier from concealment than full cover, because bushes/foliage "hitboxes" are wider than the graphics, but full cover tree trunks are not (so when you peek out or the AI moves ½m to the side they see a corner of your hitbox).
Avoiding detection at night only works in overcast or limited moonlight if the AI has no night vision equipped, and ghillie/camouflage is only 10% effective if you are moving; if stationary it is however quite effective even if AI is very close.
Shooting or throwing frags will partially reveal you to AI, and injuring them will fully reveal you to them and all their group mates regardless of concealment or distance to them. Stealth kills only work for ungrouped AI killed in one hit.
Suppressed rifles still give off a sonic crack, revealing you partially to nearby AI; the best way to stealth kill AI is by a suppressed pistol or single shot SMGs using 9mm or larger caliber rounds, as they tend not to give a sonic crack.
After detection AI knowsAbout value decreases to half over 2min, after which it resets to 0. During this time all AI group members have near perfect information of you even if line of sight is broken. If you peek back out < 2min they shoot you.
I remember playing a mission in the ARMA campaign that had battles in forest environment, An exercise in first aid kits and becoming good friends with a nearby rock.
Is LT human or AI?
Sam Curran He's a MarI/O instance that got left running in ARMA too long.
Very informative. Thank you for this video.
Something has changed in 3 years of development? I would like to see a similar analysis with the newer version
Maybe they did this for performance reasons. Imagine a single AI tracking every single tree that has the possibility of obstructing and hiding a unit. And multiply it by, something like, 10. Example, imagine there are 30 or more trees around and a single AI is has to keep note each of them, probably costing performance, while trying to find another unit. So if there is 10 units in that woods, and each one of them are doing the same. They are in doing in a total of 300(or more) calculations on choosing either they can see the other unit or they can't.
I will guess that the AI in Arma 4 when it arrives, or BI is developing it they will be more lethal.
They can find you in the Swamp Shrubs even if you're proning and hiding in them not moving regardless of NV or Night/Day. They won't fire into the shrubs, but they just know you are there at all times.
I noticed that when I tried making a mission in there a while ago
Kinda like when you are playing hide and seek with little kids. You know where they are but you play stupid on purpose to not find them.
Humans are little kids. AI are the seekers who know haa.
I really loved the game and all that realism.. Until i started meeting AI enemies that can pick you off from a mile distance without possibility to see you.. It made me mad a lot of times I cursed at those developers and their families...
I was always told, they can see through leaves and other foliage, but not tree trunks.
So then the moral of this video: Never enter into a forest/woodland terrain when you're playing against AI, right? :)
Someone more knowledgeable will correct me, but as far as I know 3D engines usually use 3D occlusion models for geometry to know whether it is in sight of another object or not (or AI), or for performance reasons (to not draw things you don't see).
Now I assume this is still valid for Arma 3 models, but based on this community.bistudio.com/wiki/Oxygen_2_-_Manual
foliage has this property set CanOcclude=0, which means the occlusion model will not be used, because it's not representative of its real shape.
They also mention that if the occlusion model is not set, the engine will use the collision model instead for sight calculations, however based on your vid this seems to not be the case for trees as they are effectively transparent for AI.
So TLDR, the engine either uses the collision model for trees but it's not at all like the 3D model you actually see, or there's simply no occlusion on trees which makes them transparent for AI.
Thank You for proving an " unwritten law ", that AI have a huge advantage with trees. Same is true for grass with coop, which negates the whole military concept of Snooping and Pooping. Adversaries without grass turned on can see you.This small caveat will do as much for this GREAT sim as the latest sound mod has. Thank You, Luetin, nicely done.
Here in 2021 AI see you just fine with grass on, once they've spotted you, or if you are not more than 300 meters away.
9:45 straight headset perfect headshot AI beats player and ai vs ai who wins? i wish those AI as difficulty on black ops 2 could play online too
Well I just attempted the mission ''Signal Lost'' and I can tell you that AI see through grass, trees, bushes and even smoke... Arma 3 really has the most horrible AI I have ever witnessed. Good job Bohemia.
Wait, the problem was never with the default Arma 3 maps, the problem was with imported maps from Arma 2. Maps from addons such as A3MP and AllinArma have this problem in which trees, bushes, etc are not rendered in a way that it's made aware to the AI so to the AI's perspective the map is barren and there are no trees, making it very easy for them to spot you. Also, some environment assets such as trees and rocks held no agency, especially along the sides of them make it easy for bullets and the players themselves to pass right through them.
EDIT--
Btw, many of these issues concerning A2 vegetation were fixed via this addon: forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?192445-Arma-2-Vegetation-reconfigured-for-A3
Luetin im a big fan, ive been wondering if you could host your own lobbies where viewers and you as well can go and do a variety of missions. Especially when your streaming. It would be so much fun like your BF4 server. What are your thoughts ?
Can't we dumb down the enemy ai spotting distance thou? Isn't there a code that can be used for enemy ai? If it is then how does it work for enemy ai groups? Would be nice to watch a video on this, showcasing how the code worked with ai groups & with individual units like sniper's. One thing I've never seen is how to make ai mortar units far behind "see" using an AI spotter. Take out the spotter & no more arty. Is this even possible? Would. Do be nice to see it in action but with dumbed down gunners so their rounds are not accurate.
A great cop out for BI would be the NATO fighting a gorilla army on Tanoa, and then in the first mission of the campaign you see the guys returning from battle and one just says "Its like they can see through the trees man..."
That's probably why Tanoa will suck, if they don't improve AI...
This explains so much. I don't feel as bad about getting wiped out so quickly now. Will have to keep this all in mind.
You're intentionally misrepresenting the argument. The problem is they can see through leaves, not trunks.
Lol. I know. Firstly the tree is miss a bit line or two. That grass has. Or there bad codes lines. Lol. You think ii I did not know but did. First rule don't trust any one. Or any thing. Hackers love to play games lol.
Omfg.. haha laughed so hard when you came to the grass part.. like really.. that opfor got rekt, this really shit..
"the AI won" lolol
I knew that they used to see through grass in previous Arma games but this is new. Disappointing fact.
A tree it's not good concealment in real life anyway. I have to admit, the AI it's better than I thought.
The issue with seeing through tree trunks has been fixed - in 24-07-2015 build of the Arma 3 Development Branch on Steam.
Thanks a lot for the investigation!
Ondřej Kužel thats good to hear, I will check it out when it comes live. Sorry to ask do you work for BIS? Great to know you guys are checking this out and working off of it. Thanks.
***** you can check it already (dev.arma3.com/dev-branch). Good videos and channels catch our eye easily ;)
Ondřej Kužel Thanks :D
AI may not see through trees, but as soon as there is a tiny sliver of a model they can raycast to, they will see you.
Is this before or after Tonoa?
What editor are you using??? i don`t remeber #d editor in ARMA3
They will probably change the AI for the release of the new map.
Regarding proximity, it looks like the surface you are stepping on makes a difference in how loud you are and therefore also how close you can get before enemy ai becomes aware of your presence.. I haven't tested it, so it is just speculation 😊
Great video btw 👍 & sub 😁
Was acknowledge by BIS.
acknowledged
forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?159711-Development-Branch-Captain-s-AI-Log&p=2964766&viewfull=1#post2964766
Damn, shows at least bis cares about the game. But Devs ranch of course. (Put ranch cause why not)
I feel like they can see through walls!
(2017) The being prone factor is important from what I noticed. With a silencer, prone, you can attack often without being detected (if somewhat far). When prone, it is as if the game considers you almost invisible. The silencer also has a huge impact.
This is why i fear that the expansion terrain its going to be a mess when playing against AI
well, they can`t see through the tree, but they can see through tree leaves and grass.
I noticed that, if you are close to a wall or window, the AI will often consider you revealed (might be the gun or gear sticking out through the wall textures). So I recommend staying a few feet away from walls.
LT! You should re-test this to see how things work now that the game is on it's second year DLC batch. You can make a whole series of revisiting your old AI test videos from back when even! (just a thought)
How come the AI wont drive vehicles through the forest?
Anyone else notice in Arma there's always one bird in the sky?
Ai Bots are op because they have aimbot included
Thanks for the video. I have recently tested the AI again in Zeus using rocks, trees and even grass on CUP Chernarus map. I found that tree cover from trees such as Spruce, give really good visual (and auditory) concealment. Whereas the bark trees give less concealment but still pretty good cover as the bullets are ricochet off the bough of the tree. Even grass can provide concealment with prone AI units just meters from each other and unable to see each other through the long grass. Although a tree or grass pile is not a strong point it can still provide some concealment. I reckon BI has gotten it pretty realistic as much as possible with the difference between concealment, cover and hard cover such as a brick wall. Cheers.
LT, keep these videos coming... I am sad that I always miss your streams. When I do catch you, only managed to enjoy 10-15mins of it... :( Story of my life...
When i was playing against the Ai in those tall swamp bushes i went prone and the Ai just walked pass me in the bush aswell even though he got stuck for a second because i was in the way he didnt engage. But i feel that AI constantly know where you are it just depends wether they engage or not or walk past because of certain cases like not moving, distance etc
I'm new on arma and now I know why I often die by AI on woodland and not in cities
ummm did they fix this send link for something ?????
Great video! This kind of stuff is great to know. I guessed correctly on all your scenario outcomes. I, like others have said, believe it has something to do with the player box sticking out from behind the tree - even if just 1mm is exposed. I've been forced to use trees as cover when a tango is firing at me and I end up getting lit up - but I'm sure that's because my ass is too big!
Good vid, is the tree thing fixed already 5 years later?
Upload the map U made for your squad to defeat
Fairly unfair.
The AI won. Even though it's AI vs AI.
I played around with things like this after some frustration with the first mission of the Adapt campaign.
What's the name of the song at 0:10.
Be interesting to see if different trees types have the same effect. Such as the trees on Chernarus that have more low down foliage or have wider trunks.
3:38 Your welcome :D
@Luetin09 has this been fixed yet?
A good workaround for the forested areas is suppression once the firefight kicks off.
Put rounds down range to make the AI abandon their position.
SanDan3rdDan Except if you don't know that the AI is there and you are killed instantly. That can't be helped.
Id like to see new hitpoint system vid :)
When ever anyone says the A.I in Arma is rubbish I always point them towards this video no words are needed TOTAL OP | ARMA 3 Operation Azure Island: th-cam.com/video/7lbatbVIbkc/w-d-xo.html
This explains why I get one clicked while I'm behind dense tree cover, thanks Luetin!
Couldn't they be hearing them
The thing about this is they should make the hit boxes smaller or make trees larger, smaller hitboxes = harder pvp/pve
Zane Vasquez Reason for any of this is? The hitboxes are as big as they need to be and the trees are the same size of trees you would find in these locations... The issue LT is showing isn't a matter of hitboxes, its the way the games AI see's through materials and objects
Has this been fixed yet? modded?
Interesting. I did my own testing with the AI, and from what I've found, they only see through trees sub 100 metres. Anything beyond that and they're as oblivious as any other object on the map occluding their vision of their target.
I decided to open up the danger.fsm which manages Arma's AI behaviour in combat again, to see if I could glean anything. i.imgur.com/OAi1UeQ.png Highest priority, other than detecting the enemy, is firing. So in the tests you've done, and I've done, there's been no firing involved. So I think that pretty much concludes the AI can see through trees sub 100 metres.
I'm curious as to what triggers the heightened spotting ability for the AI. I tried changing them in and out of behaviour states from SAFE to AWARE, and it wouldn't spot through trees over 100 metres. Yet, sub 100 metres, I didn't even have to change behaviour - he saw the target straight away. I could try playing about with the AI Skills array, which governs their different attributes like spotting time and spotting distance, as well as a number of other things, to see if I can limit their ability in tree coverage at closer ranges.
What would be great I'd if the first couple shots by AI missed so that you had a chance to take cover. Have you by any chance found anting related in FSM?
There's nothing in the default FSMs. The AI's ability is determined by their subskills. These are calculated against the difficulty settings for AI Precision and AI Skill. AI has a general skill level which determines a number of things, like how courageous they are, how good their leadership is, and a lot of values which determine how accurate they are.
These values can be set in the AI sub-skills array in scripts, meaning you can have incredibly inaccurate AI. This is governed mostly by aimingAccuracy, aimingShake, and aimingSpeed in the skills array. It's anything between 0 and 1, so I've had AI with incredibly low skill levels shooting and missing each other in prolonged firefights at 10 metres distance.
These values take effect across all ranges, so the best solution is to have a script that makes the AI inaccurate at long range, and very accurate withing 20 metres.
Maybe they r on 3rd person...
Thank you for posting this i can assume now that they can see through some trees mostly but not much else luckily
No doubt they have x-ray
11:05 the AI won? funny...
11:09 .. yes, the AI won.
What about smoke?
im a ASG player and in the woods its just so easy to hear anyone frome even longer range that you showed us so its quite normal that the ai was aware when the enemy moved but the lock on him was pretty weird tough
+Kendzior944 thats a pretty good rationalistion for it. I suppose I may think of that way but unfortunately they do still focus a bit ott on you
+Luetin09 exactly