Great analogy! MDZJimmy also retweeted about the same player doing the exact same thing to him where it didn't work and the Kage died for it. Sometimes, it's not even a decision, it becomes a habit of some sorts.
@@Glarfugus I think in that situation wouldn't cr.MK buffered into EX Tatsu be better? I don't play Kage so I don't know if that's a better choice. I do know that just sweeping him back would be better as it leads to one poke for game with little risk.
Sometimes you need to roll the dice. People tend to forget that this shit tilts people also. The risk can be worth it if you know it will piss off the other person.
I'd say that sometimes the opponent expect the best answer. If you always take the "best" choice, you become predictable. Sometimes doing something "stupid" or "random" throws off the opponent and you can take back the rhythm of the battle
I remember my second year at CEO and I had Jwong in my pool. I asked him “how do you fight FANG? I don’t get the character” His response was “Oh I just try to fuck him up before he can do anything” It was at that moment I realized sometimes none of us low level or high level know what to do. Sometimes we just wing that shit
@@sleepybinch well given he said he really doesn’t know what to do about and just prioritizes killing him before he can get anything started I’m sure that was just his answer 😂
Yes but you should never focus on that. Your goal isn't to win 1 match, its to win as many as possible. So yeah sometimes you win despite fucking up or sometimes you lose despite playing well but most often you will win when playing well and lose when fucking up. Getting the optimal moves into your muscle memory is only beneficial.
Doing "objectively" dumb moves that work are honestly the best moments I can get in a fighting game. There is no better dopamine rush for my brain. Doing the more "optimal" decision wouldn't result as much laughter or enjoyment. So will I keep doing them? Absolutely. If I can win once every 10 matches by doing dumb shit, it's definitely worth it.
I don't know... I don't think I've laughed as hard at SFV any other time as when I baited an Akuma to wake up CA and then Ryu VT2 parried it after the super freeze to win the game. Optimal *and* hilarious.
I get that. Sometimes I purposefully start doing random shit like Broly EX lariat 4 times in a row for shits and giggles because when it finally hits them its always a good laugh on both sides (most of the time anyway lmao)
That shit sounds mad boring to play against. Being a nut every once in a while is cool. Necessary even. Being a nut all the time sounds like those the games you lose are just the most snooze worthy.
I personally have the most fun just saying fuck it and how good it feels when it works is equivalent to drugs. I just feel so good that the random shit worked that I don’t realize at the moment that it was absurdly stupid.
Top Japanese players have talked about this before, where they feel sometimes it's fine to make incorrect decisions especially in pools because making "smart" decisions doesn't always work against mid-level players and there's less nerves involved with making educated "incorrect" decisions
feel like this discussion, while valid, ignores the other side of the defending player who forgot that yes, EX Tatsu is an available option to use and that's why he got hit.
It comes down to whether you believe someone is making a conscious choice in making a read over making the optimal play, vs actually thinking they're making the optimal play. Like how in poker, there are plays you're supposed to do in a particular scenario but someone may go with a different choice if they feel they have a read. It's the whole optimal vs exploitative discussion, and if someone is actively thinking about that when making a decision.
@@zegim thats not true, this a low ranked player take. if youre in a frame trap, youre getting pressured, you have like 2 good options. Vrev, block, maybe using an armor move depending on your opponents tendencies. if you randomly just decide to mash during a frametrap its a bad choice. In the twitter video that ex tatsu was not smart, it was random, he just did it because of the range, guaranteed that guy gets that shit blocked 7 times out of 10, its not good and it was random.
This just sounds like LTG. There's a "right" way to play, and if you deviate from that you're just "pressing buttons". You're just "random". You didn't "earn my points".
Honestly the thing that gets me is people acting like Phenoms reaction is that strange, no matter if it was random or if he was blocking or not of course he's gonna be surprised, he got hit by an unexpected tatsu. BizzarroWolf's comment is from such a weird place when all Phenom said was "who does that?", is he really supposed to be like "ahhh yes, what a Godlike prediction, I shall list all my mistakes I made in that very second and hold this L deeply". Like nah, Phenom got surprised and frustrated then moved on. Also I dont think a diamond player will leave the scene for not getting their "sick plays" acknowledged, hell more people probably leave the scene cause they got hit by random tatsu/shoryu and got frustrated.
@@guitarsoupify and from a wolf too, you can't reason with wolves, wild animals are unpredictable and the important thing is to stay safe on camping trips
Did the Kage player actually make that decision 10 times and have it work once though? "Who does that" doesn't sound like the reaction of some one making that decision a tenth time. Maybe he was just willing to take a risk because he thought his best chance of winning was taking the unpredictably unsafe option after a match where he'd tried to make safer decisions and was in extreme danger of losing for it.
This is an old comment but playing one fighting game I was really, really bad in a certain matchup against a certain character built around a setplay super. I evolved my strategy to if I had the life lead, do the dumbest thing possible and trade with the super. I knew I would 100% lose the round if I played properly but doing the unexpected mega dumb play would win me around 70% of the rounds when I did it for the first time in a match. I didn't do a completely random dumb thing. I did a very planned dumb thing in dozens of matches and it improved my win rate in that matchup a lot. But to the other side it would just look like me being a complete unga bunga, because what I did SHOULD have guaranteed a round loss. If they didn't get hit.
It's like chess: you can make a move and checkmate someone x moves later, but it doesn't change the fact that the engine shit itself when you made that move.
Been watching your content for a while now and I really appreciate that "That shouldn't have worked" is woven into your vernacular. It's such a great teaching tool that gives insight into your decision making and instead of popping off saying "Look at my sick reads" it becomes a conversation of "I should have died there; here's why and what I could have done better." Thanks for all your hard work!
Problem is you can't see into someone else's head. Anyone can plausibly pull off an Ume Shoryu if they predict that their opponent is going to jump, and as an outside observer it's important to realize that. Like it isn't a bad move if someone blocks and doesn't go into oki if the other player keeps doing Reversals, that's just the player reading the other.
most of the time players arent reading, they are doing prepared reactions, where they think their opponent has a bad habit, so theyre sniping specifically that option when it comes out and immediately reacting, you can only prepare one reaction so preparing the right one is what makes you win, so its not luck its about catching onto your opponent
I remember Barlowe (Valkenhayn main) making a tweet a few years back about how he got a perfect on someone and reviewed the match and found things that like, even though they hit, he could have hit with safer options in the same scenarios.
Players like this guy are what makes fighting games unique. Like, he could have done cr.mk but that's not as cool as the tatsu that crumples your opponent.
Another side to this is that whatever is 'optimal' in any given fight changes rapidly by the second. In a given situation, you might say a particular option is optimal. But let's say your opponent knows that - now they've read you when you could have pulled it off with an option they weren't expecting. Risks can be bad, sure, but if they're calculated they can be just as valid as sticking to a rigid perspective of what's 'optimal.' This is how heart players can outplay mind, because they deviate from the other's game plan. In a fight you need to be ready for anything, not just ready to answer a set equation.
I’ve definitely had a lot of moments like this in Smash/RoA. I’ll charge up a smash attack and the other guy will just mistime a dodge or misjudge the distance of the attack by a smidgeon. In those moments I need to say to myself: “That was a stupid thing to do, I got lucky that guy made a mistake”. I still won, I take the victory, but I keep in mind I need to improve.
With a plat fighters being as variable and volatile as they are, there are too many options to actively consider and process it all constantly. Sometimes your opponent just fucks up like that. We take those lol
Daigo vs Gamberbee at DHW13. First round, first game. Daigo walks up DP multiple times. Regardless of the fact that it worked, if it was anyone else, it would have been "They just got lucky. Other guy was blocking with his face."
No. That’s ridiculously BM in tournament no matter who does it. But there is a difference between random dude in silver doing it online and one of the best players in the world doing it in tournament.
He got lucky regardless whether it was Daigo lmao. 2 of the DPs were in response to constant jumps, the rest were just him rolling the dice on GB doing something on wake up and he won.
@@ZachHenke it’s not bm... if you haven’t played sf4 the shoryu on wake up covers multiple different tech timings but is extremely risky. Daigo isn’t trying to bm gamerbee he’s just showing willingness to commit to an extremely risky option for the sake of conditioning.
Reminds me of tekken. How Korean and Pakistani players mainly focus on being safe. That's why unsafe things in tekken are so hype. You see someone whiff punish with electric and the whole audience goes wild, the same doesn't happen with srk since theyre thrown out so much more.
This is why I still watch some MtG streamers even if I can't stand them as a person. The constant dialogue about their decision making and all the possible interactions is so valuable.
Honestly, I feel like this topic is true of alot of other types of games too. I have friends who show me clips of their league games where they kill their opponent in lane and I have to explain to them that they didn't do well their opponent just didn't punish correctly. I wonder if you can use results based thinking to learn from it blowing up in your face and going back to the drawing board? Obviously its faster to evaluate the situation and determine that even if the decision worked it was bad, but what if you don't know what the right decision is in the first place?
Reminds me of a DOA tournament match I had. I made random decisions and took wins. Sometimes you just have to go for it. My decisions were "random" and not "(5) to the power of 200 minus 10, find value for X and Z" type calculations but I still won.
TBH the question should never be "why'd he do that!?" it should be "why'd that hit me?". I don't care what level you play at, it's scrub shit to deride someone's play right after you lose to it.
Phrasing is important. "Why'd he do that?" is still a decent way of phrasing it in my opinion, because it's a question asking *why* that option *might* be decent. My issue comes in is that it's not "Why'd he do that?" or "Why'd that hit me?" It was "Who does that?" It's a question that demeans the other person because he is the odd one out. He is the *only one* who does that in that scenario. He is the black sheep, and therefore, random. Sajam asks, "Was that the correct choice?" and the answer is, honestly, no. There were way more options that he could've done that were safer and better in that scenario. VS2 could've likely done the same thing but potentially safer, he could've Fireball'd or something else. But asking, "Who does that?" is just such a poor way of phrasing the situation.
Well well well, coming back to this thing years later, this? This is what we in the distant future of 3 years later now call “a neutral skip”, and now that it’s a common shared mechanic between different series, instead of asking “why the hell would anybody do that”, it’s “why won’t they stop doing that”. Two people played footsies for ten seconds, one of them realized they had no life lead and had to do something, and did the fastest approaching hitbox they could do to beat out the waiting game. They used tatsu like God intended: to stop two people from shimmying and not make progress until the stars died out. If I throw a sucker punch in a fight, I’m not necessarily being a dumb idiot loser who won’t play honest footsies with a drunk guy with a knife. I’m probably doing the most desperate, impulsive thing I can to get out of that situation, and regardless of what happens after I totally deserve it
I mean, mathematically suboptimal decisions can be good, teabagging is probably not the best option in game but it does a lot of mental damage, and from the looks of it so did the yolo EX tatsu
I play with the idea that if it works then it’s good ingrained within me and I think it’s mostly true. Fighting games are mind games after all. If you get the yolo read right good on you. If you go for the yolo read and get read you need to mix up your options and condition it better. It’s the exact opposite of theme of the video, I know. But I think that the instinctual decisions are quite important to how I play fighting games.
I think a lot of the problem is ego investment. Players can't objectively evaluate whether their decisions were right or wrong if they're worried that it reflects on them and their skill.
I'm a bit of a sucker for getting away as much BS as possible. It feels good playing worse than my opponent and still winning. I'm the guy who plays Scissors and Rock when everyone else plays Paper. But what's the safest away to get away with BS in fighting games? I assume conditioning but conditioning seems complicated and dependent on person by person basis. Do you know the rules for conditioning opponent?
This was a weird video. The decision was right/correct if the player won, being the "best" choice is irrelevant. I don't think anyone is arguing they shouldn't consider better options nor do I think anyone should be arguing that players should keep making sub-optimal decisions, just that dipping into donkeyspace, intentionally or not, can out Yomi an opponent and secure the W. Was the Kage constantly doing the EX tatsu? If so, then _no one_ should be asking, "wHo DoEs ThAt!?!?" when watching that clip. The answer would be, "The guy who keeps doing it over and over, obviously..." Daigo lost a fight against F.A.N.G. that he admits he shouldn't have lost if he was playing optimally, but Daigo's lack of Yomi in regards to that specific match-up let the F.A.N.G. get away with sub-optimal decisions and win which is all that matters, just like Infiltration winning with the 'weak' Hakan in 2013. Fighting games are results oriented. The winner of EVO is determined by who wins. You don't get a trophy for making the most optimal decisions, you don't get a trophy for 'expressing yourself', you don't get a trophy for making the correct counter-pick, you get a trophy for getting the desired result: victory. Hakan wasn't top tier, but that didn't matter because Infiltration made a decision based on the situation and succeeded. If he lost it would have been labeled the wrong decision but we don't have a time machine to redo the match and see the FGC's reaction if he lost so we can only judge it by the results we observed. Ume-syndrome: It was godlike if Daigo did it but scrubby if notDaigo did it Sub-optimal decisions: It's an 'expressive' choice using donkeyspace to outwit the opponent if a 'pro' did it but a 'mistake' if a 'nobody' did it Schrodinger's Kage Tatsu: It was right if it worked, it was wrong if it didn't Schrodinger's counter-pick: It was right if it worked, it was wrong if it didn't Karin Player: *doesn't read the mind of the opponent* Kage Player: *expresses themselves/makes a 'mistake' which wins a round* FGC: Why didn't they do the optimal decision?! That was a mistake. They shouldn't have won! Sirlin: Here's Fantasy Strike, a game where the optimal decisions are fairly obvious and players have to win by reading the mind of the opponent. FGC: Ugh, where's the player expression? I want a lot of options! I want players to be able to make mistakes! I don't want a 'solved' game! Kage Player: *expresses themselves/makes a 'mistake' which wins the round by doing an option that isn't optimal* FGC: Why didn't they do the optimal decision?! That was a mistake. They should have used the "correct" answer. They shouldn't have won!
its stupid to argue that somebody "shouldnt have won", but this isnt the angle that this video goes off of. Its moreso taking these as learning experiences. sure it worked in that instance, but you couldve done something that works MORE OFTEN, making your general play much tighter. the decision itself isnt WRONG necessarily, but that doesnt mean there arent other options that are more correct then the one that worked. I feel as though this type of thinking kinda gets in the way of improvement especially when applied at lower levels. I see it a lot in other games that i play with my friends. me: "wow that was stupid, but theyre bad I guess" my friend: "it wasnt stupid, it worked" this is ignoring that a fundamentally better player wouldve countered that option and won the interaction. if you want to get better, you should always strive for picking the best possible option. its not always possible to do that, but saying "the right option is the one that worked" I feel is missing the point. its not necessarily that the option was wrong, just sub-optimal. If i button mash and win, i would find it silly to say "well, I picked the right option" I think assessing the infiltration vs pr balrog hakan pick as "right" or "wrong" is incredibly reductive. there are reasons why he picked it, and it worked. that doesnt mean it was necessarily THE right choice, but A right choice. maybe pr balrog would prepare for the hakan pick and win? infiltration himself has said it was a huge gamble, and it came out in his favour. why gamble, when you have a surefire option? if infiltration couldve picked a different, higher tier, easier to use character and won, it wouldve been a better pick. just because the dice roll boxcars doesnt mean it was the best choice to roll the dice in the first place, it just means the dice roll boxcars THIS TIME.
@@HamburgerHat1 As I said, "I don't think anyone is arguing they shouldn't consider better options nor do I think anyone should be arguing that players should keep making sub-optimal decisions, just that dipping into donkeyspace, intentionally or not, can out Yomi an opponent and secure the W... You don't get a trophy for making the most optimal decisions, you don't get a trophy for 'expressing yourself', you don't get a trophy for making the correct counter-pick, you get a trophy for getting the desired result: victory... If he lost it would have been labeled the wrong decision but we don't have a time machine to redo the match and see the FGC's reaction if he lost so we can only judge it by the results we observed." Schrodinger's Hakan.
sometime , you can t take some time to comparing options during a match, particularly for not experienced players.making a not optimal choice is better than making the optimal one too late,or losing your concentration because of that.
That's why you take the time to do it in post? Sajam telling himself that his burst was bad is so that over hundreds or thousands of matches, he eventually stops bursting that move entirely.
@@hiroprotagonest you can t plan every moves and situations in post and expect to be on point for everything in every matches, yes you can prepare and correct some bad habits.This certainly help but that s all, in neutral,if your opponnent can addapt, a decent part of the fight will be left to improvisation and adapting to your opponent on the fly. sure with experience less and less will be left to improvisations, but even pro players are not post prepared to respond perfectly to all situations at anytime
There’s no such thing as “random” unless you’re mashing. Decisions like raw tatsu are almost never truly random. There’s always some reason for it, even if it’s on the subconscious level and the player doesn’t realize it. Intuition goes a long way in fighting games.
Obviously he didn’t roll dice to decide what move to use, but there isn’t any explainable logic other than “If it hits I win” behind the tatsu. This is also true of a lot of other moves in this situation, so, to everyone but that Kage player, it might as well have been randomly selected.
I think this is true but it immediately calls to question what a good decision is. What if making a “bad” decision IS a better decision due to unpredictability, like picking a pocket low tier no one wasted the time learning to fight against.
If it works, it works. We assert what's right or wrong based on the outcome of the action, not by the context which influences it. 'Ume Shoryu' is not random because Diago, true. But it should not be seen as random for any wakeup dp'er; from Bronze to Grand Master. A wakeup DP'er makes an assessment of the situation and an assumption of their opponent's position and reaction before acting. Whilst the decision is typically unfavorable, in general, we are playing either isolated or continuous matches; this fact alone skews the validity of certain action's and can make a wakeup DP'er more or less favoured than in general circumstances. Imho, being conventionally 'right'/'wrong' doesn't mean anything if the decision doesn't bring the desired outcome in THAT specific instance. The Kage can't be faulted, he took a risk and it payed off; the pay off is all that matters in the end. It's illogical to call something good or bad preemptive to the outcome, after all, 'good' and 'bad' describe the effect of the action not the state in which it has been taken. If a poor choice works in isolation, you can't say it was the wrong choice, sub-optimal, yes, but not wrong as the desired outcome was reached; nonetheless, making poor choices due to a confirmation bias is something all players should be watchful for.
Interesting.. I think the evaluation should be "why did this work" rather than "was it the right thing to do". Fighting games have so many options and responses to many situations. I think if you understand why it worked and the decision is made with that intent(I think he is going to do xNow based on xPrevious, or whatever) I think it's fine. Fighting games are about expressing yourself and solving problems in the way you want to. Maybe the making the "right" decision gets you killed here because it is super expected or what have you. Idk.
The thing is, neither player made the right decision, the kage player did chose a bad option, but Dekillsage still got read so him being mad is not justified either
Tbf, if it's unpredictable, you aren't going to get read by the opponent. It's fair strategy to act brain dead if it obscures your plan from the other guy and confuses them imo
The thought that there are people out there that would leave the fgc cause they got called random is hilarious. If that's what stagnates the fgc then fucking anything will.
This is a weird conversation to be having. Seems like a few weeks ago everyone was talking about how players needs to be more positive and now we're back to "Even the best players think they're bad. Stay humble."
Recognizing you can do better doesn’t need to be a negative thing. In fact, that’s how you change and be happy about the correct choices in the future. Self evaluation is how you improve, and improvement makes us happy.
It’s simple Phenom. You’re playing Street Fighter V. The idea is reduce the other person’s lifebar to 0 before they do the same to you. In this case the opponent hit you with a calculated ex tatsu and achieved the above mentioned objective. Your opponent thus won and you lost.
What many people dont' understand is that using the "incorrect" option and winning with it anyways does extreme mental damage to your opponent. They will be shook and unable to retaliate.
ive only played like, 2 hours of sfv, but imo that choice doesnt seem bad. like, at all. that tatsu seems SUPER quick, like unreactable, so... feel free to call me out tho
It was unreactable yes, but the issue is that this player could done something safer like stHP or crMP which beats the exact same options as a raw ex tatsu, but isn't punishable on block.
Just because you won the lottery doesn't mean that playing the lottery was the correct choice.
Great analogy! MDZJimmy also retweeted about the same player doing the exact same thing to him where it didn't work and the Kage died for it. Sometimes, it's not even a decision, it becomes a habit of some sorts.
Especially when you consider how small the chances for success are, and how much money you might have wasted just for a one in x trillion chance.
@@nitomono Ironically it was a good choice in Jimmy's clip, because he was trying to whiff punish a sweep with it. Just too slow on the buzzer.
@@Glarfugus I think in that situation wouldn't cr.MK buffered into EX Tatsu be better? I don't play Kage so I don't know if that's a better choice. I do know that just sweeping him back would be better as it leads to one poke for game with little risk.
Sometimes you need to roll the dice. People tend to forget that this shit tilts people also. The risk can be worth it if you know it will piss off the other person.
Maxim 43: If it’s stupid and it works, it’s still stupid and you’re lucky.
Unless it works after testing it a few times in a row. Then it's not stupid.
@@Firrox if its stupid and it works 10 times in a row its still stupid but so is you opponent so keep doing it
I'd say that sometimes the opponent expect the best answer. If you always take the "best" choice, you become predictable. Sometimes doing something "stupid" or "random" throws off the opponent and you can take back the rhythm of the battle
I remember my second year at CEO and I had Jwong in my pool. I asked him “how do you fight FANG? I don’t get the character” His response was “Oh I just try to fuck him up before he can do anything”
It was at that moment I realized sometimes none of us low level or high level know what to do. Sometimes we just wing that shit
To be fair. That’s the general rule against FANG for every player lol.
@@takohma1056 yeah lol which only makes the advice funnier to me 😂
that, or vague questions get vague answers
@@sleepybinch well given he said he really doesn’t know what to do about and just prioritizes killing him before he can get anything started I’m sure that was just his answer 😂
@@sleepybinch It wasn't vague, just broad.
I just think of it like a card game and they got the top deck. You could play perfectly and still just lose.
I was gonna say, the video title applies perfectly to poker...I can make a terrible decision that still results in a great result.
Yeah, and by the same token, you can play terribly and still win.
yeah its like playing yugioh and starting off with a bricked hand.
When you Mulligan down to 4 at the start and draw a shock when you and your opponet are both at 2.
Yes but you should never focus on that. Your goal isn't to win 1 match, its to win as many as possible.
So yeah sometimes you win despite fucking up or sometimes you lose despite playing well but most often you will win when playing well and lose when fucking up.
Getting the optimal moves into your muscle memory is only beneficial.
Doing "objectively" dumb moves that work are honestly the best moments I can get in a fighting game. There is no better dopamine rush for my brain. Doing the more "optimal" decision wouldn't result as much laughter or enjoyment.
So will I keep doing them? Absolutely. If I can win once every 10 matches by doing dumb shit, it's definitely worth it.
I don't know... I don't think I've laughed as hard at SFV any other time as when I baited an Akuma to wake up CA and then Ryu VT2 parried it after the super freeze to win the game. Optimal *and* hilarious.
We found the Spike.
I get that. Sometimes I purposefully start doing random shit like Broly EX lariat 4 times in a row for shits and giggles because when it finally hits them its always a good laugh on both sides (most of the time anyway lmao)
That shit sounds mad boring to play against. Being a nut every once in a while is cool. Necessary even. Being a nut all the time sounds like those the games you lose are just the most snooze worthy.
@@abielfigueroa6616 not my problem if my opponent doesnt enjoy the games when I do
I personally have the most fun just saying fuck it and how good it feels when it works is equivalent to drugs. I just feel so good that the random shit worked that I don’t realize at the moment that it was absurdly stupid.
That's the unga within you. It's in all of us. We love it even though we as a society don't want to admit it
It feels like improvising and when I pull it off I feel like a genius LOL
Ew lol that's cool though
Same. A lot of people don't seem to get that though.
satsui no unga
Top Japanese players have talked about this before, where they feel sometimes it's fine to make incorrect decisions especially in pools because making "smart" decisions doesn't always work against mid-level players and there's less nerves involved with making educated "incorrect" decisions
feel like this discussion, while valid, ignores the other side of the defending player who forgot that yes, EX Tatsu is an available option to use and that's why he got hit.
"the diamond player gets called random and Daigo gets called sick"
I thought we called Daigo random too.
It comes down to whether you believe someone is making a conscious choice in making a read over making the optimal play, vs actually thinking they're making the optimal play.
Like how in poker, there are plays you're supposed to do in a particular scenario but someone may go with a different choice if they feel they have a read. It's the whole optimal vs exploitative discussion, and if someone is actively thinking about that when making a decision.
Everyone is random when you don't like what happened
@@zegim yes
@@zegim thats not true, this a low ranked player take. if youre in a frame trap, youre getting pressured, you have like 2 good options. Vrev, block, maybe using an armor move depending on your opponents tendencies. if you randomly just decide to mash during a frametrap its a bad choice. In the twitter video that ex tatsu was not smart, it was random, he just did it because of the range, guaranteed that guy gets that shit blocked 7 times out of 10, its not good and it was random.
@@TheJackson4eva it's a joke Bro
This just sounds like LTG. There's a "right" way to play, and if you deviate from that you're just "pressing buttons". You're just "random". You didn't "earn my points".
I watched this video, listened to your explanation and I agree with it. But that will not stop me from dp'ing in neutral
Dp on wakeup gang? Anyone?
Full screen predictive DPs
Honestly the thing that gets me is people acting like Phenoms reaction is that strange, no matter if it was random or if he was blocking or not of course he's gonna be surprised, he got hit by an unexpected tatsu. BizzarroWolf's comment is from such a weird place when all Phenom said was "who does that?", is he really supposed to be like "ahhh yes, what a Godlike prediction, I shall list all my mistakes I made in that very second and hold this L deeply". Like nah, Phenom got surprised and frustrated then moved on.
Also I dont think a diamond player will leave the scene for not getting their "sick plays" acknowledged, hell more people probably leave the scene cause they got hit by random tatsu/shoryu and got frustrated.
You might say his response was, bizarre.
@@guitarsoupify and from a wolf too, you can't reason with wolves, wild animals are unpredictable and the important thing is to stay safe on camping trips
It worked, but lets stop and evaluate that move.
Evaluation: It worked
Conclusion: Good
The tatsu heard around the World...
That may not have been the best option, but wasn't that the most hype option?
As far as I'm concerned the most hype option is the best option.
TRUE
DONT THINK PRESS BUTTONS!
Did the Kage player actually make that decision 10 times and have it work once though? "Who does that" doesn't sound like the reaction of some one making that decision a tenth time. Maybe he was just willing to take a risk because he thought his best chance of winning was taking the unpredictably unsafe option after a match where he'd tried to make safer decisions and was in extreme danger of losing for it.
This is an old comment but playing one fighting game I was really, really bad in a certain matchup against a certain character built around a setplay super. I evolved my strategy to if I had the life lead, do the dumbest thing possible and trade with the super. I knew I would 100% lose the round if I played properly but doing the unexpected mega dumb play would win me around 70% of the rounds when I did it for the first time in a match.
I didn't do a completely random dumb thing. I did a very planned dumb thing in dozens of matches and it improved my win rate in that matchup a lot. But to the other side it would just look like me being a complete unga bunga, because what I did SHOULD have guaranteed a round loss. If they didn't get hit.
@@killerkonnat You took calculated risks as opposed to trying to play it safe all the time, which made you a better player. 👍
It's like chess: you can make a move and checkmate someone x moves later, but it doesn't change the fact that the engine shit itself when you made that move.
"The winner of the game is the player to make the next-to-last mistake."
tbh, sometimes its worth putting the opponent in a situation where there's only 1 move that wins them the game and everything else leads to checkmate.
In chess, every move can be a deadly mistake. That's how I think about fighting games.
Been watching your content for a while now and I really appreciate that "That shouldn't have worked" is woven into your vernacular. It's such a great teaching tool that gives insight into your decision making and instead of popping off saying "Look at my sick reads" it becomes a conversation of "I should have died there; here's why and what I could have done better." Thanks for all your hard work!
"He's gonna over extend, im not tho." Gets hit.
Huh. Looks like he just straight up lied.
Problem is you can't see into someone else's head. Anyone can plausibly pull off an Ume Shoryu if they predict that their opponent is going to jump, and as an outside observer it's important to realize that. Like it isn't a bad move if someone blocks and doesn't go into oki if the other player keeps doing Reversals, that's just the player reading the other.
most of the time players arent reading, they are doing prepared reactions, where they think their opponent has a bad habit, so theyre sniping specifically that option when it comes out and immediately reacting, you can only prepare one reaction so preparing the right one is what makes you win, so its not luck its about catching onto your opponent
Only recently found you, and man, your content's super engaging. Thank you!
I expected that Sajam would just say that the play was godlike and that everyone are being babies until I read the title. Always a treat, Sajam.
I remember Barlowe (Valkenhayn main) making a tweet a few years back about how he got a perfect on someone and reviewed the match and found things that like, even though they hit, he could have hit with safer options in the same scenarios.
Acting like you not gonna eat that ume-tatsu.
Players like this guy are what makes fighting games unique. Like, he could have done cr.mk but that's not as cool as the tatsu that crumples your opponent.
The mental damage is much more important than the actual damage
When the fighting game video makes you evaluate your life choices
Optimal choice.
Not "good". Good is always anything positive.
Another side to this is that whatever is 'optimal' in any given fight changes rapidly by the second. In a given situation, you might say a particular option is optimal. But let's say your opponent knows that - now they've read you when you could have pulled it off with an option they weren't expecting. Risks can be bad, sure, but if they're calculated they can be just as valid as sticking to a rigid perspective of what's 'optimal.' This is how heart players can outplay mind, because they deviate from the other's game plan. In a fight you need to be ready for anything, not just ready to answer a set equation.
This video was uploaded 2 days ago and it just notified me
Sajam is like a fuckin sage I swear. Sage-am
At this point I swear it's just phenom manifesting this shit
I’ve definitely had a lot of moments like this in Smash/RoA. I’ll charge up a smash attack and the other guy will just mistime a dodge or misjudge the distance of the attack by a smidgeon. In those moments I need to say to myself: “That was a stupid thing to do, I got lucky that guy made a mistake”. I still won, I take the victory, but I keep in mind I need to improve.
With a plat fighters being as variable and volatile as they are, there are too many options to actively consider and process it all constantly. Sometimes your opponent just fucks up like that. We take those lol
Ah... The Ume Walk Up Slowly and Down Smash...
@@thelastgogeta the most powerful move is really just the "Fuck it" Play
Daigo vs Gamberbee at DHW13. First round, first game. Daigo walks up DP multiple times. Regardless of the fact that it worked, if it was anyone else, it would have been "They just got lucky. Other guy was blocking with his face."
No. That’s ridiculously BM in tournament no matter who does it.
But there is a difference between random dude in silver doing it online and one of the best players in the world doing it in tournament.
He got lucky regardless whether it was Daigo lmao. 2 of the DPs were in response to constant jumps, the rest were just him rolling the dice on GB doing something on wake up and he won.
@@ZachHenke it’s not bm... if you haven’t played sf4 the shoryu on wake up covers multiple different tech timings but is extremely risky. Daigo isn’t trying to bm gamerbee he’s just showing willingness to commit to an extremely risky option for the sake of conditioning.
@@TKBadMoon it’s not luck when gamerbee presses buttons on wake up far more often than not
@@stolensentience In the context of the post I'm replying to, yes, it is.
Mang0 is the king of playing like an idiot at times and getting away with it. It's only dumb if it doesn't work.
"The ends never justify the means" Sage advice.
Reminds me of tekken. How Korean and Pakistani players mainly focus on being safe. That's why unsafe things in tekken are so hype. You see someone whiff punish with electric and the whole audience goes wild, the same doesn't happen with srk since theyre thrown out so much more.
THE STUFF ABOUT THE BACKROOM IS SO TRUE HOLY SHIT LMAOOOOO
Go boxing ring
Go boxing ring
Go boxing ring
Go boxing ring
Go boxing ring
Anyone else get this in their notifications like 2 years later? Great video but dang im confused haha
that was PURE FOOSIES
Doing an ex tatsu like that is pure heart player, fuck it
Bizzarro's tweet makes for a perfect copypasta
This is why I still watch some MtG streamers even if I can't stand them as a person. The constant dialogue about their decision making and all the possible interactions is so valuable.
Honestly, I feel like this topic is true of alot of other types of games too. I have friends who show me clips of their league games where they kill their opponent in lane and I have to explain to them that they didn't do well their opponent just didn't punish correctly. I wonder if you can use results based thinking to learn from it blowing up in your face and going back to the drawing board? Obviously its faster to evaluate the situation and determine that even if the decision worked it was bad, but what if you don't know what the right decision is in the first place?
It's so funny how people feel the need to stick up for diamond rank players as if they're beginners. That Kage knew exactly what they were doing.
The kage was like, "Ah, gottem. Ggs." Lmao
Phenom gotta hold that though
sometimes in chess, the best move is not the best move.
Bold of you to assume I make decisions.
Reminds me of a DOA tournament match I had. I made random decisions and took wins. Sometimes you just have to go for it. My decisions were "random" and not "(5) to the power of 200 minus 10, find value for X and Z" type calculations but I still won.
Shoto supremacy
TBH the question should never be "why'd he do that!?" it should be "why'd that hit me?". I don't care what level you play at, it's scrub shit to deride someone's play right after you lose to it.
Phrasing is important. "Why'd he do that?" is still a decent way of phrasing it in my opinion, because it's a question asking *why* that option *might* be decent.
My issue comes in is that it's not "Why'd he do that?" or "Why'd that hit me?" It was "Who does that?"
It's a question that demeans the other person because he is the odd one out. He is the *only one* who does that in that scenario. He is the black sheep, and therefore, random.
Sajam asks, "Was that the correct choice?" and the answer is, honestly, no. There were way more options that he could've done that were safer and better in that scenario. VS2 could've likely done the same thing but potentially safer, he could've Fireball'd or something else. But asking, "Who does that?" is just such a poor way of phrasing the situation.
Well well well, coming back to this thing years later, this? This is what we in the distant future of 3 years later now call “a neutral skip”, and now that it’s a common shared mechanic between different series, instead of asking “why the hell would anybody do that”, it’s “why won’t they stop doing that”. Two people played footsies for ten seconds, one of them realized they had no life lead and had to do something, and did the fastest approaching hitbox they could do to beat out the waiting game. They used tatsu like God intended: to stop two people from shimmying and not make progress until the stars died out.
If I throw a sucker punch in a fight, I’m not necessarily being a dumb idiot loser who won’t play honest footsies with a drunk guy with a knife. I’m probably doing the most desperate, impulsive thing I can to get out of that situation, and regardless of what happens after I totally deserve it
The post game analysis and implementation of the lessons taken should be spread around like crack in an underdeveloped neighborhood
wonder if he’s gonna upload the Bum tourney discussion, thats gonna cause a bunch more drama
Someone get this man a speedo
We got F O O T I E S
These things happen.
how to double like videos? damn, keep it up bro :D
I do shit like that just for the mental damage it causes. Good luck winning the next round with all that foam coming out of your mouth xD
does tatsu beat Karin's cr.mk? If so Im chopping that up to a dope idea.
So all this deliberation on this dudes read and he’s still “random?” Take the piss and I’m NOT talking about Sajam
Fuck it. Imma just make a TH-cam comment.
I mean, mathematically suboptimal decisions can be good, teabagging is probably not the best option in game but it does a lot of mental damage, and from the looks of it so did the yolo EX tatsu
I play with the idea that if it works then it’s good ingrained within me and I think it’s mostly true.
Fighting games are mind games after all.
If you get the yolo read right good on you.
If you go for the yolo read and get read you need to mix up your options and condition it better.
It’s the exact opposite of theme of the video, I know.
But I think that the instinctual decisions are quite important to how I play fighting games.
When’s Sajam taking a bath
"Wake up, FGC" will never not be funny
I think a lot of the problem is ego investment. Players can't objectively evaluate whether their decisions were right or wrong if they're worried that it reflects on them and their skill.
I don’t think it was terrible, per se. at that range ex tatsu was an ok risk reward option, esp when kage cant play good footsies
I'm a bit of a sucker for getting away as much BS as possible. It feels good playing worse than my opponent and still winning. I'm the guy who plays Scissors and Rock when everyone else plays Paper. But what's the safest away to get away with BS in fighting games? I assume conditioning but conditioning seems complicated and dependent on person by person basis. Do you know the rules for conditioning opponent?
This video inspired me to raw ex tatsu my friends and make them very angry
sajam speedo when????
not every move that wins is a winning move
Awww.... Come on Sajam.... Do a speedo stream and let's get to the top of Just Chatting xD
It's probably just a missed input, and Twitter decided to start a war because of a 5 second clip
Haha this really applies to Overwatch since your team can bail you out so hard
This was a weird video. The decision was right/correct if the player won, being the "best" choice is irrelevant. I don't think anyone is arguing they shouldn't consider better options nor do I think anyone should be arguing that players should keep making sub-optimal decisions, just that dipping into donkeyspace, intentionally or not, can out Yomi an opponent and secure the W. Was the Kage constantly doing the EX tatsu? If so, then _no one_ should be asking, "wHo DoEs ThAt!?!?" when watching that clip. The answer would be, "The guy who keeps doing it over and over, obviously..." Daigo lost a fight against F.A.N.G. that he admits he shouldn't have lost if he was playing optimally, but Daigo's lack of Yomi in regards to that specific match-up let the F.A.N.G. get away with sub-optimal decisions and win which is all that matters, just like Infiltration winning with the 'weak' Hakan in 2013. Fighting games are results oriented. The winner of EVO is determined by who wins. You don't get a trophy for making the most optimal decisions, you don't get a trophy for 'expressing yourself', you don't get a trophy for making the correct counter-pick, you get a trophy for getting the desired result: victory. Hakan wasn't top tier, but that didn't matter because Infiltration made a decision based on the situation and succeeded. If he lost it would have been labeled the wrong decision but we don't have a time machine to redo the match and see the FGC's reaction if he lost so we can only judge it by the results we observed.
Ume-syndrome: It was godlike if Daigo did it but scrubby if notDaigo did it
Sub-optimal decisions: It's an 'expressive' choice using donkeyspace to outwit the opponent if a 'pro' did it but a 'mistake' if a 'nobody' did it
Schrodinger's Kage Tatsu: It was right if it worked, it was wrong if it didn't
Schrodinger's counter-pick: It was right if it worked, it was wrong if it didn't
Karin Player: *doesn't read the mind of the opponent*
Kage Player: *expresses themselves/makes a 'mistake' which wins a round*
FGC: Why didn't they do the optimal decision?! That was a mistake. They shouldn't have won!
Sirlin: Here's Fantasy Strike, a game where the optimal decisions are fairly obvious and players have to win by reading the mind of the opponent.
FGC: Ugh, where's the player expression? I want a lot of options! I want players to be able to make mistakes! I don't want a 'solved' game!
Kage Player: *expresses themselves/makes a 'mistake' which wins the round by doing an option that isn't optimal*
FGC: Why didn't they do the optimal decision?! That was a mistake. They should have used the "correct" answer. They shouldn't have won!
its stupid to argue that somebody "shouldnt have won", but this isnt the angle that this video goes off of. Its moreso taking these as learning experiences. sure it worked in that instance, but you couldve done something that works MORE OFTEN, making your general play much tighter.
the decision itself isnt WRONG necessarily, but that doesnt mean there arent other options that are more correct then the one that worked. I feel as though this type of thinking kinda gets in the way of improvement especially when applied at lower levels. I see it a lot in other games that i play with my friends.
me: "wow that was stupid, but theyre bad I guess"
my friend: "it wasnt stupid, it worked"
this is ignoring that a fundamentally better player wouldve countered that option and won the interaction. if you want to get better, you should always strive for picking the best possible option. its not always possible to do that, but saying "the right option is the one that worked" I feel is missing the point. its not necessarily that the option was wrong, just sub-optimal. If i button mash and win, i would find it silly to say "well, I picked the right option"
I think assessing the infiltration vs pr balrog hakan pick as "right" or "wrong" is incredibly reductive. there are reasons why he picked it, and it worked. that doesnt mean it was necessarily THE right choice, but A right choice. maybe pr balrog would prepare for the hakan pick and win? infiltration himself has said it was a huge gamble, and it came out in his favour. why gamble, when you have a surefire option? if infiltration couldve picked a different, higher tier, easier to use character and won, it wouldve been a better pick. just because the dice roll boxcars doesnt mean it was the best choice to roll the dice in the first place, it just means the dice roll boxcars THIS TIME.
@@HamburgerHat1 As I said, "I don't think anyone is arguing they shouldn't consider better options nor do I think anyone should be arguing that players should keep making sub-optimal decisions, just that dipping into donkeyspace, intentionally or not, can out Yomi an opponent and secure the W... You don't get a trophy for making the most optimal decisions, you don't get a trophy for 'expressing yourself', you don't get a trophy for making the correct counter-pick, you get a trophy for getting the desired result: victory... If he lost it would have been labeled the wrong decision but we don't have a time machine to redo the match and see the FGC's reaction if he lost so we can only judge it by the results we observed." Schrodinger's Hakan.
@@spiffythealien nobody argued that wasnt true. not even sajam.
sometime , you can t take some time to comparing options during a match, particularly for not experienced players.making a not optimal choice is better than making the optimal one too late,or losing your concentration because of that.
That's why you take the time to do it in post? Sajam telling himself that his burst was bad is so that over hundreds or thousands of matches, he eventually stops bursting that move entirely.
@@hiroprotagonest you can t plan every moves and situations in post and expect to be on point for everything in every matches, yes you can prepare and correct some bad habits.This certainly help but that s all, in neutral,if your opponnent can addapt, a decent part of the fight will be left to improvisation and adapting to your opponent on the fly.
sure with experience less and less will be left to improvisations, but even pro players are not post prepared to respond perfectly to all situations at anytime
Evaluation can be done at any time, not only during the match.
@@SupermanSajam yes , i never said the opposite. i already answered that above.
There’s no such thing as “random” unless you’re mashing. Decisions like raw tatsu are almost never truly random. There’s always some reason for it, even if it’s on the subconscious level and the player doesn’t realize it. Intuition goes a long way in fighting games.
Obviously he didn’t roll dice to decide what move to use, but there isn’t any explainable logic other than “If it hits I win” behind the tatsu. This is also true of a lot of other moves in this situation, so, to everyone but that Kage player, it might as well have been randomly selected.
@@ZachHenke the explainable logic is: this move is fast, has a good hit box, and does enough damage to win right now.
@@stolensentience It’s strictly worse than forward HP in this situation.
@@ZachHenke doesn’t make the explainable logic any less applicable
@@stolensentience It makes it so that it’s still basically a coin flip to everyone else though.
If it worked it was right :)
I think this is true but it immediately calls to question what a good decision is. What if making a “bad” decision IS a better decision due to unpredictability, like picking a pocket low tier no one wasted the time learning to fight against.
6:42 Smart, mid-tiers are less likely to get nerfed and players don't focus on learning the matchup.
Yeah, but it looked cool
This video should be like a commandment to watch for generic online tekken players who can do nothing except gamble.
Fighting games are all mind games and if in your mind you think I wouldn't do an EX Tatsu and you lose then you lost the mind game also.
if it worked then it was good qed
If it works, it works. We assert what's right or wrong based on the outcome of the action, not by the context which influences it.
'Ume Shoryu' is not random because Diago, true. But it should not be seen as random for any wakeup dp'er; from Bronze to Grand Master. A wakeup DP'er makes an assessment of the situation and an assumption of their opponent's position and reaction before acting. Whilst the decision is typically unfavorable, in general, we are playing either isolated or continuous matches; this fact alone skews the validity of certain action's and can make a wakeup DP'er more or less favoured than in general circumstances.
Imho, being conventionally 'right'/'wrong' doesn't mean anything if the decision doesn't bring the desired outcome in THAT specific instance. The Kage can't be faulted, he took a risk and it payed off; the pay off is all that matters in the end. It's illogical to call something good or bad preemptive to the outcome, after all, 'good' and 'bad' describe the effect of the action not the state in which it has been taken.
If a poor choice works in isolation, you can't say it was the wrong choice, sub-optimal, yes, but not wrong as the desired outcome was reached; nonetheless, making poor choices due to a confirmation bias is something all players should be watchful for.
This is the worst thing I’ve read today
Interesting.. I think the evaluation should be "why did this work" rather than "was it the right thing to do". Fighting games have so many options and responses to many situations. I think if you understand why it worked and the decision is made with that intent(I think he is going to do xNow based on xPrevious, or whatever) I think it's fine. Fighting games are about expressing yourself and solving problems in the way you want to. Maybe the making the "right" decision gets you killed here because it is super expected or what have you. Idk.
Bro, just YOLO so hard that you live twice
YOLO hard enough to be immortalized, live forever
The thing is, neither player made the right decision, the kage player did chose a bad option, but Dekillsage still got read so him being mad is not justified either
Isn’t phenom the player who did command grab on daigo’s wake up like 5 straight times ~5 years ago?
Yes
@@ensanesane lol then he should know all about unsafe nonsense
@@stolensentience ? Necalli's heavy command grab into command grab in the corner is a 50/50, just like Gief's heavy SPD
@@ensanesane and?
@@stolensentience That means it's not unsafe, it's a mixup
I guarantee nobody doing random ume shoryus is getting discouraged by being called random. If anything, it probably encourages them.
Tbf, if it's unpredictable, you aren't going to get read by the opponent. It's fair strategy to act brain dead if it obscures your plan from the other guy and confuses them imo
The thought that there are people out there that would leave the fgc cause they got called random is hilarious. If that's what stagnates the fgc then fucking anything will.
It kind of makes sense. If your not playing optimally all the time, people will just call ya trash and lucky even if you win.
I can hear hawaiian shirt man laughing from here
This is a weird conversation to be having. Seems like a few weeks ago everyone was talking about how players needs to be more positive and now we're back to "Even the best players think they're bad. Stay humble."
Recognizing you can do better doesn’t need to be a negative thing. In fact, that’s how you change and be happy about the correct choices in the future. Self evaluation is how you improve, and improvement makes us happy.
yeah but wouldnt it be funny if it hit though- my strategy every time
It’s simple Phenom. You’re playing Street Fighter V. The idea is reduce the other person’s lifebar to 0 before they do the same to you. In this case the opponent hit you with a calculated ex tatsu and achieved the above mentioned objective. Your opponent thus won and you lost.
Nothing wrong with a little EX Tatsu action between consenting adults.
probably my biggest gripe with the FGC.
"wow, what a great challenge by Goichi"
vs
"wow, what a masher"
What many people dont' understand is that using the "incorrect" option and winning with it anyways does extreme mental damage to your opponent. They will be shook and unable to retaliate.
pêrsonnaly i love playing with my opponnents nerves by mixing unnecessary risky dumb stuff
ive only played like, 2 hours of sfv, but imo that choice doesnt seem bad. like, at all. that tatsu seems SUPER quick, like unreactable, so... feel free to call me out tho
It was unreactable yes, but the issue is that this player could done something safer like stHP or crMP which beats the exact same options as a raw ex tatsu, but isn't punishable on block.