I can't believe that people would cancel book orders and stop watching Tim's videos over this. It's like they'll allow Tim to review and discuss whatever only as long as it's what they want to hear. But how can we grow and learn if we're not presented with alternative ideas or things we might disagree with? Tim I love your videos. I'm going to order another book to give to a friend. Keep doing what you do!
An issue I have with the Message Bible is how often it can sound dated, not in the majestic way the KJV does, but in a "grampa trying to sound hip" way.
tim, i LOVE this video! honestly, i thought the same thing about The Message for years and then i read A Burning in My Bones and it challenged me to read the Message itself. I went ahead and read The Message for a Bible Shred challenge (the whole bible in 30 days!) and it TRANSFORMED my love of and understanding of the Bible. i made a whole video about my time reading The Message in 30 days, and then the entire ESV study bible in a year immediately after, and how that was the single greatest thing i have ever done for my personal relationship with Christ! absolutely stellar video sir, don't let any of the haters get you down - you are doing AMAZING work!! also, i love this series so much, please keep it going forever :D can't wait for the book!
@@ancientxtitan9313 actually planning on doing just that! :) My goal is to do a read through of all the major translations (done NLT, ESV, The Message, and NASB so far!) so that i am much more equipped to talk with people about any of them. Do you like the CEV? I don't think i personally know anyone who's read that, so i'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how it ranks? The one i'm really interested in next is the full-notes NET
@@readlikeaman I do like the CEV very easy to understand. It is my morning reading Bible. My mother bought it more than 10 years ago. I found it on our library after being interested in reading other translations other than NKJV. NKJV was may main Bible translation for 15 years. I read the NIV, NLT, CSB, Berean Standard Bible. I love all those. Now I'm planning on getting NET Full Notes, and then maybe the NASB. Not a big fan of the ESV. It's great there are many of us who desire to read many translations.
@@ancientxtitan9313 man I love that! Yeah I’ll def be moving CEV up the list now! I think you’ll like the NASB, I really enjoyed that one! And I couldn’t agree more man, I’ve gained so much from reading the different versions and have things that I love about all of them. Really wish more people would be open to reading more because I think there’s such value in it..
The first time I read the Bible cover to cover was The Message. It primed the pump for me to love the Word more and dig deeper into other translations. It’s a valuable resource for someone new to faith or who would otherwise not read the Bible because it’s challenging.
I am really enjoying these translation videos and I hope that Translation Tuesday remains a permanent part of your offerings. Some more foundational videos might be helpful, such as a discussion about the differences, and similarities between Formal and Dynamic. Also, in thinking about it, a video or two on the history of the Masoretic text would be fun, since it is the primary basis for many of the modern versions OT.
Tim, I don’t agree with all your opinions and thoughts, but they are needed and helpful. We need to have more conversations not less. Keep them coming!
I'm really enjoying this series. I understand the passion that people have, but it seems silly to get so angry and worked up when there is disagreement. It does make it confusing for people who are new to faith or just starting their education. That is why I really appreciate your calm and neutral presentation that just lays out the information so that the viewers can draw their own conclusions. I went ahead and joined your channel to make up for the silly person who left over a simple disagreement of ideas :)
Great video! I did not have a positive opinion on the Message for the longest time. Then, several years ago, I was listening to a lecture from Dr. Bill Mounce and he was talking about the advantages of using multiple translations, "Including the Message". I thought to myself, if someone like Dr. Mounce doesn't have a problem with the Message I shouldn't either. I have since figured out the people who are the least pretentious about Bible translations are the actual translators themselves.
Thank you for this. Definitely a balanced video that I deeply appreciate. One of the things the Eugene Peterson always mentioned was that he saw people using this bible in tandem with other translations. In the intro to "The Message" he states that The Message "is a reading bible...it is not intended to replace the excellent study bibles that are available." I have always appreciated The Message and still refer to it alongside my ESV. There was a point a number of years back when I was a bit burned out in my bible reading and teaching, and it was spending a year just reading through the Message that helped to revitalize my passion for scripture. So, I will always be grateful for The Message and the life of Eugene Peterson, particularly today on the anniversary of his death.
Loving these videos I'm learning a lot from them and I think I can even go as far as saying that Translation Tuesdays are my favourite videos on your channel now.
Thank you Tim. This was a great explanation. I own a couple of “The Message” Bibles. I have not read it entirely but I have looked at different passages when I found myself wanted to understand something in clearer terms. In the same way I would compare any other translation to what I’m currently reading (ESV). As with other translations, the idea Eugene Peterson had, I believe, was to help people grasp the message of God’s word to any reader. I think you can’t knock it until you understand why it was done the way it was. Thank you Tim for doing all the research for us. I appreciate you. Blessings.
Thank you for this video, Tim. I enjoyed it. I've always been warned away from The Message, but now think I might give it a look. Of course, I'd like to check it out not for in-depth Bible Study but for casual reading. Thanks! Love your Translation Tuesdays! :)
I have enjoyed these videos. I own different translations and compare them when I am studying. My oldest son prefers the message bible because he claims he understands what he is reading better. For Christmas he received from me this year a Bible that had NIV and the message side by side so that he could see both together when he reads his Bible.
Most people think that it is paraphrased, but I guess that the modern language makes that the case. I personally think that it doesn't matter what translation or paraphrase you use as long as it gets you closer to God. Thanks Tim!!
I'm definitely, in the "this is a paraphrase" camp. Additionally, there are levels of meaning and insight that only the KJV and the NKJV retain, given the translators fidelity to the Majority text. I also support your discussion of this, and appreciate it. I use multiple translations with regularity, but this is not one I would employ or recommend. Thanks for the discussion Tim! P.S.. The NLT is a better choice for the ends the message seeks to accomplish!
Got me thinking brother. I don't know if I quite agree, but I will say that you definitely made me think about the definition of translation. Can't wait to read that book!
to me the message is kind of a mixed bag. there's some verses/passages that just sound straight up goofy with the lax/modern slang/language, but then there's some that really stand out in a unique way and genuinely move me. i had a youth pastor as a kid solely teach from the message. i think it's fine to have and use, but i also think it's good to have another easy-to-understand translation like NIV or ESV or NKJV on deck to get the full scope of things. side note: my mom grew up only ever reading the good news translation. it's a "paraphrase" too but growing up with her reading from it to us, i don't feel like we missed out on any key message. the heart of it was all still there.
Hi Tim. Thought this was a helpful analysis. I think the term "translation" comes with some extra weight in some or most people's minds indicating that the output is solid and trustworthy. For some reason we have a hard time saying a translation is good or bad, instead we throw it on a spectrum but give it the same or similar weight as other translations. And The Message just doesn't seem like it deserves that status, so people object to calling it a translation. I noticed you had the NLT as the nearest to The Message. From what I understand, no one really has any objection to the NLT being a translation even though the language is pretty modern. Would be interesting to compare the ESV, The Living Bible (isn't that the predecessor to the NLT?) , the NLT and The Message and just see how different (or similar) they are. The Living Bible is truly a paraphrase so would be interesting...
Tim I come to your channel for your opinion. In fact, I am grateful you have an opinion and that it challenges me from time to time. Your manner of delivery is so inviting and wholesome I honestly have a hard time imagining someone taking offense, let alone cancelling orders and subscriptions. Are we so intolerant of differing opinions that we resort to this? Really? If you are keeping the theme of Translation Tuesdays going, I have a suggestion: There are some less well known translations out there that do have some merits - Young’s Literal, Goodspeed’s An American Bible, the New Jerusalem Version (not the New Jerusalem Bible) - and I think may be well worth mentioning on your channel. Just a thought.
Cervantes said that reading anything in other than its original language was like looking at the back of a tapestry. Truth. It's stunning how language and thought are tied together. Word for word translation can result in near gibberish. Once you truly understand the original language, you realize that making sense when moving from one language to another necessitates choices, and those choices have a ripple effect to (at least) adjacent text. When I took Greek, we first learnt Mark, his wonderfully straightforward. To move from him to Luke is night and day. Our first semester final was our own translations of selections from the apocrypha. The class spanned the whole range and have us an appreciation for the dilemma between approaches, and the nuance in the original language that's lost in word for word translation
I do have this Bible. I bought it because it was referenced in our church and I was curious. There was something about it that made me put it down. I tried a number of times, but the result was the same. I will be donating it. I would most definitely never judge anyone if it were their Bible of choice. Thank you for another great video! 😁
Oh, and BTW, if you have a few folks attempting to cancel you because of a simple disagreement, you probably don't want them around in the first place.
First off, loving translation Tuesdays! It gives us a bit of the mind of an author. Secondly, I honestly use the Message as more of a commentary cause to me it is sounds more like a teacher in Sunday School.
Forgive the essay. I’m a former Greek teacher, so I am conversant with Greek, but not Hebrew. I’ll admit that I hated on The Message to my students (HS students at a Classical Christian School). Back then, the version of The Message I found online contained a rendition of Psalm 1 that referred to “smart-mouth college” and “sin saloon” and other gag-worthy anachronisms. I held that passage up to them as an example of a translation that would fail in my class. In the 12 or 13 years since I was a Greek teacher, I’ve gained an appreciation for Eugene Peterson and The Message. Even though I trust that Peterson worked from the original languages for the entire project, I regard some passages of The Message as translation and some as paraphrase. I’m comfortable labeling the passages that you pointed out translations because they are at least dynamic equivalents to the original. But other passages like Psalm 1 (granted, I don’t know Hebrew) are closer to paraphrase. The Message’s rendition of Job 38 (again, I’m out of my depth) is what converted me to recognizing its value. In verses 8-11, the ESV is beautifully subtle in capturing the metaphor of the sea being like a baby: “I made clouds its garment and thick darkness its swaddling band, and prescribed limits for it and set bars and doors, and said, ‘Thus far shall you come, and no farther, and here shall your proud waves be stayed.” But check it out in The Message: “And who took charge of the ocean when it gushed forth like a baby from the womb? That was me! I wrapped it in soft clouds, and tucked it in safely at night. Then I made a playpen for it, a strong playpen so it couldn’t run loose, And said, ‘Stay here, this is your place. Your wild tantrums are confined to this place.” Wow! I caught the imagery so much easier in The Message and that guided my meditation on the passage. That’s the value I see in The Message.
I remember reading in the introduction to a publication of part of the JB Phillips translation the idea that if a paraphrase is saying something a different way, all translations are, in a sense, a paraphrase.
My thanks, Tim, for your charitable, and thoughtful response about The MESSAGE and to folk whose charity in-Christ is seriously lacking and rivaled only by their imagination regarding their power as (negative) influencers. The MESSAGE is not my primary translation but translation it definitely is and it definitely is not any let alone all that its detractors make out. Silly is the attempt to essentially DOX you with screenshots of their righteous (ahem) removal of support. "Big boys don't cry" but they do leave an awful mess in their wake online. Tim, I am happy to support you in per-ordering your book (technically, waiting with a notice on my calendar for the release date of the Kindle copy) and I will actually per-order a physical copy for a nephew who will appreciate it. / May you thrive.
Yes to both. Peterson was seminary trained and qualified to complete translation work from biblical greek and Hebrew. The intro pages to the MSG state that it is in fact a translation from original language. However, the translator took a ton of liberty rendering passages in ways his "meat and potatoes small town working class Montana congregation" could understand. It's really a pastoral work at heart reflective of petersons artistic style and love for the common man.
I don't think Peterson intended it to be someone's primary Bible. The Message is almost like his commentary on the Bible. I think it was improved with the 2018 revision. I enjoy it for devotional purposes and was glad you mentioned Romans 12:1-2. That is my favorite rendering of that passage.
Thank you, Tim, for this video. I have always thought of The Message as a paraphrase. It sounds like how a pastor will reword a passage to make it more understanding for his specific congregation. Based on the name of it, I though that maybe the writer was trying to make the Bible into a giant sermon. I don't have a problem with that, per se, but feel that it won't stand the test of time due to ever-changing colloquialisms, and already, things have changed. I do not own a copy and don't intend to, but have read it in the Bible apps I have.
Tim: Again, another really good video explaining and clarifying your opinion re: the Message. I personally do not consider the Message to be a bible translation but rather a paraphrase. However, this does not mean the Message is void of value. I believe it to be a resource that has merit for new Christians just starting to read the Word.of God, as well as a supplemental, secondary biblical resource for mature Christians. Unfortunately, the Message appears to be a text that polarizes Christians; so, I would not worry about the hard-line comments.
I’ve never read that book, I don’t know much about the message translation besides that some people think it’s a resource and not a Bible to read, I know I’ll never pick up the passion translation But I want to say that as a young Christian women, I seek to be very open minded especially within the discussion about our bibles and faith and the Bible, what should and shouldn’t be followed
You should have compared the scriptures where "The Message" deviates the most significantly. It's these areas that call into the question the quality of the entire work. But yeah "technically" a translation. Good video though.
The problem with quoting from The Message, is that it's an endorsement. You would be better off making up your own paraphrase in the moment based on your own study. There are to many scriptures that are problematic in this book to call it a translation. If it's a translation, then It's a very bad one. If it's a paraphrase, then we can be more generous.
I wasn't familiar with this so I read a few chapters and, it's different. My first take is that it is somewhat imprecise but perhaps more accessible to those that haven't read the Bible for a long time and used to more popular translations. I don't think that I would want to use this.
Even though I disagree and put it fully into the paraphrase category I'm not going to cancel you over that disagreement. Peterson's rendering of Romans 12:1-2 is actually used as an example in the "Herman Who" course from Wretched Network as to how to tell you're crossing the line into paraphrase.
I'm much closer to calling it a paraphrase than a translation, strictly based on my own antidotal evidence. I almost read The Message from the pulpit once because of how clear it seemed to make the text I was working on. However, after much study, I saw that it read better because Peterson had simplified the passage by doing a bit of a paraphrase that removed one of the exegetical options for interpreting the text. In essence it was his "translation" that determined the meaning of the text. Haven't picked it up since and can't imagine I will again. I would list the text for you, but my foggy memory simply won't allow it. My apologies.
From what I've learned of it, it is not a paraphrase. And biased against true Christian doctrine. Should be moved to the fiction section with the Passion translation.
This was an informative video. Well handled Tim. Just to add a comment and my take... Calling it a paraphrase is really doing it a favour. If you have to augment definitions of terms to eke out a defence of calling it a translation you're clutching at straws. We already have such great tools such as the Amplified which uses the KJV as a foundation which is much safer as it is referencing a trusted foundation. Is The Message a useful tool? Sure, but calling it a translation would tend to give it a foundational element and indicate that it can be read on it's own and I certainly couldn't recommend anyone to use this as their bible/"translation".
It's in the "Someone read the Bible from a true/authentic translation and then tried to repeat it to someone from memory but employed the old fisherman's storytelling habits of embellishing the size of the fish they caught" camp as far as I am concerned. In other words - paraphrase. It's silly for people to cancel orders and channel memberships because their opinion differs from yours. It's not like you are promoting "The Message-onlyism".
It still concerns me most that in English we spend so much time on the minutiae of the Bible and less effort on actually upholding and living the principles and teachings of our Lord. Why is this apparently done only in the English language? I also speak French and Latin and never hear all the back-and-forth seen here.
Romans 15:13 Message Oh! May the God of green hope fill you up with joy, fill you up with peace, so that your believing lives, filled with the life-giving energy of the Holy Spirit, will brim over with hope! The God of green hope….. Why? It’s so wrong.
The message is not for me. But I don’t see a problem if someone wants to use it in addition to another translation. I don't see anything to get fired up about. It's not like you said toss all your Bibles and only use the message.
"The problem with your position is that you changed "κύριος" to "Lord" which can potentially be misleading." -The umbrella definition of κύριος is "he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has the power of deciding; master, lord;" - The KJV translates "κύριος" as "master" eleven times. How are you mislead?
@@Success_Quest. I'm having difficulty understanding which heretical destination one may be led? - Today, a European "Lord" is closer to a Senator in the USA. So, one could just as easily be misled by the term "Lord." Imagine a new Christian thinking of Jesus as our alliterative"Senator and Savior"???
I’m not going to cancel anything but the Message is a Paraphrase to me the same as The Story: The Bible as One Continuing Story of God and His People by Max Lucado & Randy Frazee, but I also call the New Living Translation a paraphrase and always will 😂😂
I understood that translations that are considered very accurate are worked on by a team of people to avoid personal or denominational bias and are based on the original manuscripts. Did Peterson's version get the same scrutiny on his work that would have occurred for work in the other categories where teams determined the translations? If not, then I'm not sure that just passing it by a bunch of scholars to check it out qualifies as enough scrutiny. Tiff Shuttlesworth doesn't think so as he tells people to avoid this version of the Bible. Are there missing verses in the MSG version that are key to understanding God's message to us? I heard that there might be.
Intentionaly misspelling a persons name with the intent to disparrage is childish bullying at best even if entirely childish politicians currently make it their stock and trade and even if it is the currency of the Internet. Christians ought to be better than the world.
I can't believe that people would cancel book orders and stop watching Tim's videos over this. It's like they'll allow Tim to review and discuss whatever only as long as it's what they want to hear. But how can we grow and learn if we're not presented with alternative ideas or things we might disagree with? Tim I love your videos. I'm going to order another book to give to a friend. Keep doing what you do!
Thanks.
It is very pharisee-esque
An issue I have with the Message Bible is how often it can sound dated, not in the majestic way the KJV does, but in a "grampa trying to sound hip" way.
Good point!
Another great video. I am looking forward to the next Translation Tuesday!
Please keep doing these! They're helpfully substantive, a nice change from Bible reviews that focus on the physical attributes of a particular Bible.
tim, i LOVE this video! honestly, i thought the same thing about The Message for years and then i read A Burning in My Bones and it challenged me to read the Message itself. I went ahead and read The Message for a Bible Shred challenge (the whole bible in 30 days!) and it TRANSFORMED my love of and understanding of the Bible. i made a whole video about my time reading The Message in 30 days, and then the entire ESV study bible in a year immediately after, and how that was the single greatest thing i have ever done for my personal relationship with Christ! absolutely stellar video sir, don't let any of the haters get you down - you are doing AMAZING work!! also, i love this series so much, please keep it going forever :D can't wait for the book!
Love this. Thanks for sharing!
Bro. Why don't you try reading something better like the Contemporary English Version?
@@ancientxtitan9313 actually planning on doing just that! :) My goal is to do a read through of all the major translations (done NLT, ESV, The Message, and NASB so far!) so that i am much more equipped to talk with people about any of them. Do you like the CEV? I don't think i personally know anyone who's read that, so i'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how it ranks? The one i'm really interested in next is the full-notes NET
@@readlikeaman I do like the CEV very easy to understand. It is my morning reading Bible. My mother bought it more than 10 years ago. I found it on our library after being interested in reading other translations other than NKJV. NKJV was may main Bible translation for 15 years. I read the NIV, NLT, CSB, Berean Standard Bible. I love all those. Now I'm planning on getting NET Full Notes, and then maybe the NASB. Not a big fan of the ESV. It's great there are many of us who desire to read many translations.
@@ancientxtitan9313 man I love that! Yeah I’ll def be moving CEV up the list now! I think you’ll like the NASB, I really enjoyed that one! And I couldn’t agree more man, I’ve gained so much from reading the different versions and have things that I love about all of them. Really wish more people would be open to reading more because I think there’s such value in it..
I believe it is a paraphrase but a very helpful resource!
The first time I read the Bible cover to cover was The Message. It primed the pump for me to love the Word more and dig deeper into other translations. It’s a valuable resource for someone new to faith or who would otherwise not read the Bible because it’s challenging.
I am really enjoying these translation videos and I hope that Translation Tuesday remains a permanent part of your offerings. Some more foundational videos might be helpful, such as a discussion about the differences, and similarities between Formal and Dynamic. Also, in thinking about it, a video or two on the history of the Masoretic text would be fun, since it is the primary basis for many of the modern versions OT.
Thanks so much!
Tim, I don’t agree with all your opinions and thoughts, but they are needed and helpful. We need to have more conversations not less. Keep them coming!
I'm really enjoying this series. I understand the passion that people have, but it seems silly to get so angry and worked up when there is disagreement. It does make it confusing for people who are new to faith or just starting their education. That is why I really appreciate your calm and neutral presentation that just lays out the information so that the viewers can draw their own conclusions. I went ahead and joined your channel to make up for the silly person who left over a simple disagreement of ideas :)
Totally agree. I find that Facebook is the worst about this for some reason. People over their get so feisty.
Great video! I did not have a positive opinion on the Message for the longest time. Then, several years ago, I was listening to a lecture from Dr. Bill Mounce and he was talking about the advantages of using multiple translations, "Including the Message".
I thought to myself, if someone like Dr. Mounce doesn't have a problem with the Message I shouldn't either.
I have since figured out the people who are the least pretentious about Bible translations are the actual translators themselves.
Love “Translation Tuesday”!
Great job on this one! ❤
Thank you for this. Definitely a balanced video that I deeply appreciate. One of the things the Eugene Peterson always mentioned was that he saw people using this bible in tandem with other translations. In the intro to "The Message" he states that The Message "is a reading bible...it is not intended to replace the excellent study bibles that are available." I have always appreciated The Message and still refer to it alongside my ESV. There was a point a number of years back when I was a bit burned out in my bible reading and teaching, and it was spending a year just reading through the Message that helped to revitalize my passion for scripture. So, I will always be grateful for The Message and the life of Eugene Peterson, particularly today on the anniversary of his death.
Excellant explanation. And … good observation on how to use The Message in study.
Loving these videos I'm learning a lot from them and I think I can even go as far as saying that Translation Tuesdays are my favourite videos on your channel now.
Glad you like them!
Thank you Tim. This was a great explanation. I own a couple of “The Message” Bibles. I have not read it entirely but I have looked at different passages when I found myself wanted to understand something in clearer terms. In the same way I would compare any other translation to what I’m currently reading (ESV). As with other translations, the idea Eugene Peterson had, I believe, was to help people grasp the message of God’s word to any reader. I think you can’t knock it until you understand why it was done the way it was. Thank you Tim for doing all the research for us. I appreciate you. Blessings.
You're welcome!
Thank you for this video, Tim. I enjoyed it. I've always been warned away from The Message, but now think I might give it a look. Of course, I'd like to check it out not for in-depth Bible Study but for casual reading. Thanks! Love your Translation Tuesdays! :)
I have enjoyed these videos. I own different translations and compare them when I am studying. My oldest son prefers the message bible because he claims he understands what he is reading better. For Christmas he received from me this year a Bible that had NIV and the message side by side so that he could see both together when he reads his Bible.
Great video. I have always considered it a paraphrase. Own a couple, have yet to read it. This video was very helpful.
Most people think that it is paraphrased, but I guess that the modern language makes that the case. I personally think that it doesn't matter what translation or paraphrase you use as long as it gets you closer to God. Thanks Tim!!
I'm definitely, in the "this is a paraphrase" camp. Additionally, there are levels of meaning and insight that only the KJV and the NKJV retain, given the translators fidelity to the Majority text. I also support your discussion of this, and appreciate it. I use multiple translations with regularity, but this is not one I would employ or recommend. Thanks for the discussion Tim! P.S.. The NLT is a better choice for the ends the message seeks to accomplish!
Got me thinking brother. I don't know if I quite agree, but I will say that you definitely made me think about the definition of translation. Can't wait to read that book!
to me the message is kind of a mixed bag. there's some verses/passages that just sound straight up goofy with the lax/modern slang/language, but then there's some that really stand out in a unique way and genuinely move me. i had a youth pastor as a kid solely teach from the message. i think it's fine to have and use, but i also think it's good to have another easy-to-understand translation like NIV or ESV or NKJV on deck to get the full scope of things. side note: my mom grew up only ever reading the good news translation. it's a "paraphrase" too but growing up with her reading from it to us, i don't feel like we missed out on any key message. the heart of it was all still there.
Hi Tim. Thought this was a helpful analysis. I think the term "translation" comes with some extra weight in some or most people's minds indicating that the output is solid and trustworthy. For some reason we have a hard time saying a translation is good or bad, instead we throw it on a spectrum but give it the same or similar weight as other translations. And The Message just doesn't seem like it deserves that status, so people object to calling it a translation. I noticed you had the NLT as the nearest to The Message. From what I understand, no one really has any objection to the NLT being a translation even though the language is pretty modern. Would be interesting to compare the ESV, The Living Bible (isn't that the predecessor to the NLT?) , the NLT and The Message and just see how different (or similar) they are. The Living Bible is truly a paraphrase so would be interesting...
Tim I come to your channel for your opinion. In fact, I am grateful you have an opinion and that it challenges me from time to time. Your manner of delivery is so inviting and wholesome I honestly have a hard time imagining someone taking offense, let alone cancelling orders and subscriptions. Are we so intolerant of differing opinions that we resort to this? Really? If you are keeping the theme of Translation Tuesdays going, I have a suggestion: There are some less well known translations out there that do have some merits - Young’s Literal, Goodspeed’s An American Bible, the New Jerusalem Version (not the New Jerusalem Bible) - and I think may be well worth mentioning on your channel. Just a thought.
Cervantes said that reading anything in other than its original language was like looking at the back of a tapestry. Truth. It's stunning how language and thought are tied together. Word for word translation can result in near gibberish. Once you truly understand the original language, you realize that making sense when moving from one language to another necessitates choices, and those choices have a ripple effect to (at least) adjacent text.
When I took Greek, we first learnt Mark, his wonderfully straightforward. To move from him to Luke is night and day. Our first semester final was our own translations of selections from the apocrypha. The class spanned the whole range and have us an appreciation for the dilemma between approaches, and the nuance in the original language that's lost in word for word translation
I do have this Bible. I bought it because it was referenced in our church and I was curious. There was something about it that made me put it down. I tried a number of times, but the result was the same. I will be donating it. I would most definitely never judge anyone if it were their Bible of choice. Thank you for another great video! 😁
Very Good, Thank you, this has been very helpful.
Oh, and BTW, if you have a few folks attempting to cancel you because of a simple disagreement, you probably don't want them around in the first place.
First off, loving translation Tuesdays! It gives us a bit of the mind of an author.
Secondly, I honestly use the Message as more of a commentary cause to me it is sounds more like a teacher in Sunday School.
Forgive the essay. I’m a former Greek teacher, so I am conversant with Greek, but not Hebrew. I’ll admit that I hated on The Message to my students (HS students at a Classical Christian School). Back then, the version of The Message I found online contained a rendition of Psalm 1 that referred to “smart-mouth college” and “sin saloon” and other gag-worthy anachronisms. I held that passage up to them as an example of a translation that would fail in my class.
In the 12 or 13 years since I was a Greek teacher, I’ve gained an appreciation for Eugene Peterson and The Message. Even though I trust that Peterson worked from the original languages for the entire project, I regard some passages of The Message as translation and some as paraphrase. I’m comfortable labeling the passages that you pointed out translations because they are at least dynamic equivalents to the original. But other passages like Psalm 1 (granted, I don’t know Hebrew) are closer to paraphrase.
The Message’s rendition of Job 38 (again, I’m out of my depth) is what converted me to recognizing its value.
In verses 8-11, the ESV is beautifully subtle in capturing the metaphor of the sea being like a baby: “I made clouds its garment and thick darkness its swaddling band, and prescribed limits for it and set bars and doors, and said, ‘Thus far shall you come, and no farther, and here shall your proud waves be stayed.”
But check it out in The Message: “And who took charge of the ocean when it gushed forth like a baby from the womb? That was me! I wrapped it in soft clouds, and tucked it in safely at night. Then I made a playpen for it, a strong playpen so it couldn’t run loose, And said, ‘Stay here, this is your place. Your wild tantrums are confined to this place.”
Wow! I caught the imagery so much easier in The Message and that guided my meditation on the passage. That’s the value I see in The Message.
I own and have read Winn Colliers book, “A Burning in My Bones”. I also own numerous copies of “The Message” in my collection.
I liked this video. You should do the Passion Translation some time. According to Youversion, it’s not even complete with all 66 books.
I remember reading in the introduction to a publication of part of the JB Phillips translation the idea that if a paraphrase is saying something a different way, all translations are, in a sense, a paraphrase.
My thanks, Tim, for your charitable, and thoughtful response about The MESSAGE and to folk whose charity in-Christ is seriously lacking and rivaled only by their imagination regarding their power as (negative) influencers. The MESSAGE is not my primary translation but translation it definitely is and it definitely is not any let alone all that its detractors make out. Silly is the attempt to essentially DOX you with screenshots of their righteous (ahem) removal of support. "Big boys don't cry" but they do leave an awful mess in their wake online.
Tim, I am happy to support you in per-ordering your book (technically, waiting with a notice on my calendar for the release date of the Kindle copy) and I will actually per-order a physical copy for a nephew who will appreciate it. / May you thrive.
Yes to both. Peterson was seminary trained and qualified to complete translation work from biblical greek and Hebrew. The intro pages to the MSG state that it is in fact a translation from original language. However, the translator took a ton of liberty rendering passages in ways his "meat and potatoes small town working class Montana congregation" could understand. It's really a pastoral work at heart reflective of petersons artistic style and love for the common man.
I think you’ll enjoy the video.
It’s both! Regardless. I really appreciate the Message.
I don't think Peterson intended it to be someone's primary Bible. The Message is almost like his commentary on the Bible. I think it was improved with the 2018 revision. I enjoy it for devotional purposes and was glad you mentioned Romans 12:1-2. That is my favorite rendering of that passage.
I definitely believe it is a paraphrase and do not recommend it for daily reading
Great job 👍🏽
Thank you, Tim, for this video. I have always thought of The Message as a paraphrase. It sounds like how a pastor will reword a passage to make it more understanding for his specific congregation. Based on the name of it, I though that maybe the writer was trying to make the Bible into a giant sermon. I don't have a problem with that, per se, but feel that it won't stand the test of time due to ever-changing colloquialisms, and already, things have changed. I do not own a copy and don't intend to, but have read it in the Bible apps I have.
Tim: Again, another really good video explaining and clarifying your opinion re: the Message. I personally do not consider the Message to be a bible translation but rather a paraphrase. However, this does not mean the Message is void of value. I believe it to be a resource that has merit for new Christians just starting to read the Word.of God, as well as a supplemental, secondary biblical resource for mature Christians. Unfortunately, the Message appears to be a text that polarizes Christians; so, I would not worry about the hard-line comments.
Tim, I'm sorry that you experienced so much backlash on this. 😢 I also don't consider it to be a translation. But, your views are always appreciated ❤
I’ve never read that book, I don’t know much about the message translation besides that some people think it’s a resource and not a Bible to read, I know I’ll never pick up the passion translation
But I want to say that as a young Christian women, I seek to be very open minded especially within the discussion about our bibles and faith and the Bible, what should and shouldn’t be followed
You should have compared the scriptures where "The Message" deviates the most significantly. It's these areas that call into the question the quality of the entire work. But yeah "technically" a translation. Good video though.
Yep…it’s both. 👍🥁🙏🏻
The problem with quoting from The Message, is that it's an endorsement. You would be better off making up your own paraphrase in the moment based on your own study. There are to many scriptures that are problematic in this book to call it a translation. If it's a translation, then It's a very bad one. If it's a paraphrase, then we can be more generous.
I wasn't familiar with this so I read a few chapters and, it's different. My first take is that it is somewhat imprecise but perhaps more accessible to those that haven't read the Bible for a long time and used to more popular translations. I don't think that I would want to use this.
I’m genuinely curious if those that are cancelling book preorders are kjv only peeps. That would explain it all.
I did not get that impression.
Even though I disagree and put it fully into the paraphrase category I'm not going to cancel you over that disagreement. Peterson's rendering of Romans 12:1-2 is actually used as an example in the "Herman Who" course from Wretched Network as to how to tell you're crossing the line into paraphrase.
Is the Message a translation or a paraphrase?
Yes. 😉
Hahaha… wait til you see the final segment of this video!
Perhaps a review of the new MEV?
Wow, some people are taking things way too far..
I'm much closer to calling it a paraphrase than a translation, strictly based on my own antidotal evidence. I almost read The Message from the pulpit once because of how clear it seemed to make the text I was working on. However, after much study, I saw that it read better because Peterson had simplified the passage by doing a bit of a paraphrase that removed one of the exegetical options for interpreting the text. In essence it was his "translation" that determined the meaning of the text. Haven't picked it up since and can't imagine I will again. I would list the text for you, but my foggy memory simply won't allow it. My apologies.
So... next video on Clarence Jordan's Cotton Patch Gospel, yeah? ;)
Do TPT next.
From what I've learned of it, it is not a paraphrase. And biased against true Christian doctrine. Should be moved to the fiction section with the Passion translation.
This was an informative video. Well handled Tim. Just to add a comment and my take... Calling it a paraphrase is really doing it a favour. If you have to augment definitions of terms to eke out a defence of calling it a translation you're clutching at straws. We already have such great tools such as the Amplified which uses the KJV as a foundation which is much safer as it is referencing a trusted foundation. Is The Message a useful tool? Sure, but calling it a translation would tend to give it a foundational element and indicate that it can be read on it's own and I certainly couldn't recommend anyone to use this as their bible/"translation".
It's in the "Someone read the Bible from a true/authentic translation and then tried to repeat it to someone from memory but employed the old fisherman's storytelling habits of embellishing the size of the fish they caught" camp as far as I am concerned. In other words - paraphrase. It's silly for people to cancel orders and channel memberships because their opinion differs from yours. It's not like you are promoting "The Message-onlyism".
It still concerns me most that in English we spend so much time on the minutiae of the Bible and less effort on actually upholding and living the principles and teachings of our Lord. Why is this apparently done only in the English language? I also speak French and Latin and never hear all the back-and-forth seen here.
FWIW, Dr. Ward (maybe coining a new word) calls the Message a 'transculture-ation' not a translation (1:19:49 in his recent debate video).
Romans 15:13 Message
Oh! May the God of green hope fill you up with joy, fill you up with peace, so that your believing lives, filled with the life-giving energy of the Holy Spirit, will brim over with hope!
The God of green hope…..
Why? It’s so wrong.
Instead of Haggai, try 1 Corinthians 6:9
The message is not for me. But I don’t see a problem if someone wants to use it in addition to another translation. I don't see anything to get fired up about. It's not like you said toss all your Bibles and only use the message.
Imagine getting so mad over semantics... dudes, take a chill pill!
Some imagine language is precise and prescriptive. They live in a tragically black-and-white world without God's rainbow.
The problem with "The message" is that it talks about Jesus as "master". It changed the word "Lord" to "master" whoch can potentially be misleading
"The problem with your position is that you changed "κύριος" to "Lord" which can potentially be misleading."
-The umbrella definition of κύριος is "he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has the power of deciding; master, lord;"
- The KJV translates "κύριος" as "master" eleven times.
How are you mislead?
@@NOXStellans idk, it just feels kinda misleading
@@Success_Quest. I'm having difficulty understanding which heretical destination one may be led? - Today, a European "Lord" is closer to a Senator in the USA. So, one could just as easily be misled by the term "Lord." Imagine a new Christian thinking of Jesus as our alliterative"Senator and Savior"???
@@NOXStellans 💀
Watching late, oops!!
I’m not going to cancel anything but the Message is a Paraphrase to me the same as The Story: The Bible as One Continuing Story of God and His People by Max Lucado & Randy Frazee, but I also call the New Living Translation a paraphrase and always will 😂😂
I understood that translations that are considered very accurate are worked on by a team of people to avoid personal or denominational bias and are based on the original manuscripts. Did Peterson's version get the same scrutiny on his work that would have occurred for work in the other categories where teams determined the translations? If not, then I'm not sure that just passing it by a bunch of scholars to check it out qualifies as enough scrutiny. Tiff Shuttlesworth doesn't think so as he tells people to avoid this version of the Bible. Are there missing verses in the MSG version that are key to understanding God's message to us? I heard that there might be.
Intentionaly misspelling a persons name with the intent to disparrage is childish bullying at best even if entirely childish politicians currently make it their stock and trade and even if it is the currency of the Internet. Christians ought to be better than the world.
The Message is not a Bible. I would not recommend that anyone read it.
Did you watch the video, Paul?
Interesting. Could you expound on your opinion @PreacherPaul71? And I echo Tim, did you watch the video? Thanks.