I'm the only inactive member in my family, and we don't talk about it at all. I never had parents that encouraged questioning authority. It's heartwarming to see people getting out so young.
Right there with you. I can’t even say the most benign argument or criticism without being berated by my family. I have to choke it down. It makes for very stressful interactions 😟
Irregardless of how someone feels about the Church, doesn't make it false. It's STILL the One and ONLY TRUE CHURCH/GOSPEL on the face of the earth, PERIOD! The Gospel's True!
@@darantibbetts8497 I was only commenting on people having others who understand them in a time of need, not about the truth of the church’s teachings. I’m glad you found your community in the LDS church and that works for you.
Once again commenting to say that I so appreciate Margi as a cohost and her thoughtful and insightful questions and comments. Every episode she’s in is better for it. Very powerful!
Was invited to speak and play at one of the dinners Ensign Peak hosted. After sharing my emotional story, brochures were passed out on how we can invest in an effort to support the Church. 🤦🏻🤷🏻 Of course, I waived my performance fee that fed my family.
I'm a very recent (yesterday) retired librarian and music teacher. I left Utah in 2000 to teach abroad. I had grown weary of having to face off with holier-than-thou, ultra-conservative BOOK BURNERS in the 84414 zip code. Your loss, North Ogden. I've had a very enjoyable career, working with a diverse population from across Europe.
To Jocee - I’m a woman in STEM, a software E graduate working in missile defense and just wanted to say thanks for your activism. I’m blessed to work with many intelligent and diverse women in my particular team but I remember in my classes being either the only woman or one of two. Cheering you on from Alabama ❤️🎉
I’m a woman in STEM (forensic science) and there’s more women in this field now…the only issue is we’re still attached to that “thin blue line” and “boys club” mentality so thank you for supporting your fellow sisters❤❤
I love the representation! My undergrad was mechanical engineering with only a handful of women in some of my large lecture classes. I remember being shocked when I went into my biomed engineering grad school classes and it was half women; I hadn't even realized I was so used to being in the vast minority! Now I'm in IT, and still in the minority (but not quite as much).
@@katesanders2219I hear you. I graduated from Civil Engineering @ UAlberta in 1980. In 1st year, 17 females in a class of 700. By Christmas it was 15 in 350 students. I think we almost all graduated. I had a good career. I loved being an engineer. I discovered that the men I went to university with didn't have a problem with the women. The people who seemed to have an issue weren't engineers. YMMV (your mileage may very) and imnshe (in my not so humble experience). Anita Jensen
2:53:10 - 2:53:55 Is so heartbreaking. This is the aspect of the Mormon faith crisis that I've personally found to be the hardest. Trying to let your parents know that you don't believe anymore and that you have decided to take a different direction for your life because you don't see any alternative but to be true to yourself but also knowing that it will break their heart to see you make that choice and that they may take it personally.
I'm SO happy Rylee got the opportunity to bear her soul and tell her story. And no better people to do it with than John and Margi, who always blows me away with her love and empathy and frequently moves me to tears. And Rylee, I hope this was very cathartic for you. I feel privileged to hear your story. Thank you.
What a beautiful comment, thank you so much 💛 Being public is excruciating, I'm simply amazed at the perseverance that John & Margi manifest by continuing to do this!! It was an incredible honor to have Margi there with us, her insights are always so meaningful. She elevates the awareness of the entire episode!!
This podcast had me absolutely captivated from beginning to end. Rylee, oh boy, she is an extraordinary woman of remarkable strength and courage. The way she fearlessly shared her story was truly awe-inspiring. I was completely engrossed for the entire three hours, not once losing interest. It's incredible how someone like her can leave such an indelible impact. You know, life has a funny way of throwing curveballs, and I, too, find myself navigating my own challenges within the church at the moment. Hearing Rylee's experiences was precisely what I needed. It resonated with me on such a deep level. In a world that can often feel chaotic and uncertain, encountering someone like Rylee, who has overcome immense obstacles, serves as a beacon of hope and inspiration. Her story reminded me that strength can be found even in the darkest of moments. All in all, this podcast featuring Rylee was an absolute gem. It provided the solace and encouragement I was seeking. I'm grateful for her openness and vulnerability. Thank you Rylee!
@methodtraining. I can not begin to tell you how much this comment meant to me. 🙏🏻🙏🏻 I know a lot of people will say “we wanted a platform” but being public is NEVER easy. Being this public, being this vulnerable with your truth and story in public comes with painful externalities I wouldn’t wish on anyone.. When so many find the courage to be cruel behind the anonymity of a screen name and keyboard…. And then to read your comment. So beautiful, perceptive, compassionate and thoughtful…. To be so kind, to a perfect stranger. How remarkable you are!. Thank you. I’ve been truly touched by the support of this community 🩵
FYI to John. Mitt Romney went east to Cambridge in 1972. He was admitted to the joint JD/MBA program at Harvard. He graduated in 1975. (I am a classmate.) I remember him as very smart, not seemingly aggressively ambitious, focused, aware of being captive to a family legacy. Plenty of assholes at Harvard Law/BSchool. He wasn’t one of them.
FYI to John. Mitt Romney went east to Cambridge in 1972. He was admitted to the joint JD/MBA program at Harvard. He graduated in 1975. (I am a classmate.) I remember him as very smart, not seemingly aggressively ambitious, focused, aware of being captive to a family legacy. Plenty of assholes at Harvard Law/BSchool. He wasn’t one of them.
Also, the culture is strong in other places in the country where many are from Utah. I am in the the East Coast and when involved, it feels like Utah ; now I am in the position where it just feels like the East Coast 😅
I was the blacksheep and only girl in my family and it took YEARS for me to realize that it wasn't really about me. And after much work, I finally have redeemed myself in the eyes of those who blamed me for much of what was wrong in our house. Spoiler alert: it was never me.
Why did you have to redeem yourself? I’m being shunned by my atheist family after being the lifelong black sheep and there is no redemption in sight. 😢
I’m completely stunned. I’ve been following this podcast for a few months and I always think of my one friend from elementary school. She was the only Mormon I knew and I’ve always had a positive view of Mormons because of her and her family. To see Rylee’s thumbnail completely shook me. I’m from NJ and rode the bus with her. I always wondered how she was doing ❤
John is such an amazing psychologist! As an educator, I just see how so many kids need this support when they’re struggling. No judgement just compassion! Amazing young women! John, God chose your ministry and it’s Mormon stories!
I love this episode. It makes me feel so validated in my own Mormon story. Being the only one out in my family I unfortunately went down the path of feeling isolated so I ended up using unhealthy coping mechanisms. This story gives me hope and a sense personal power. Thank you 🙏
You made the right choice for you leaving. I hope you continue to make right choices to better your life. Find a community, a support system. I wish you all the best on your journey ♥️
I loved hearing Rylee's story. It reminded me of my own story in a lot of ways. I'm glad John called the audible and made this into 3 parts so both girls could tell their story.
This was a really good episode, my heart goes out to Rylee. Sometimes apologizing too much to grown children can cause more issues if they are Narcissistic & want to blame & hold a grudge. I apologized a lot to my now 28 year old. She’s been estranged emotionally since she was 16 & physically off & on ever since she moved out at 18. I noticed the more I apologized the more resentful she became. I left the church right before she turned 13 so she never had to go through Young Women’s or Seminary. She is luckier than she realizes in that regard.
Whew, this one really hits home for me. Starting to have doubts as a teenager is so hard because only members of the church would understand the conversations you want to have, but it’s not safe to have those conversations with them.
In a weird way, as the daughter of a non-denominational Christian fundamentalist missionary preacher who grew up in a state other than TX or the south, I can relate so much with a lot of parts. She and I were also born the same and graduated the same years. I also did call center work. So many parallels.
So my kids and I weren't the only weird ones? I grew up in NJ and raised my kids in Utah County. I was shocked when my kids told me how much worse the culture was in UT!! I just knew I never fit in, but the fanatical/degrading young womens' modesty presentations, teaching my kids that if they looked up anything negative about the church their computers would get a virus, oh my gosh yes the shaming of kids of divorced parents/single moms!!! I could go on and on about that for hours, the marriage counseling priesthood leaders claimed they could do for everyone in the stake because they had revelation, and I agree so much with how narrow-minded, Puritanical, and crazy the health (sex) ed lessons in high school were (they showed them horror pictures of sexually transmitted diseases and the only protection was abstinence!) Thank you!!!
My parents moved with my younger sister to North Ogden and Weber HS my senior year- listening to Rylee’s experience sounds horrifyingly similar to her experience in their ward, with her peers, and at the high school. I was a senior and stayed with family to finish my schooling in utah county with friends, but had MANY moments of absolute disgust and fury when listening to the stories of bullying and ostracizing that she had to endure in that area. All for being as wise and strong as Rylee… and advocating for truths that I am only recently being exposed to and coming to fully understand. It is 100% a tale of OZ with families being damaged in the wake. Love and respect for Rylee and the family. Can’t wait to listen to part 2! ❤
🥹🥹 wow. If only we had known each other in North Ogden!! I’ve had a lot of people reach out at this point saying they had similar tales and related to my experience. What. A. Toxic. Place!! If only we could’ve all formed a community somehow!! Anyways, thank you so much for taking the time to reach out and your kind words. Thank you 🙏🏻
@@ryleeporter1109 if only! From what I saw and heard through my family’s experiences and when I would visit on weekends… and personally experienced with a bishop up there which turned out to be the worst bishop experience of my life. I couldn’t agree more. Very toxic place
@@tonyachristensen4428 you know I honestly can’t remember…. I’d have to ask my dad, because I never was actually part of that ward anyway, because I stayed in utah county with my extended family during that time and would only visit on the weekends. All I know is this bishop was HORRIBLE and the experience was beyond traumatic, so much so, that I thought about leaving the church right there and then and never looking back… knowing what I know now, I really wish I had
@@aprilshowers21 I'm sorry it was so traumatic. As I put together pieces from my youth I've come to understand just how much the North Ogden patriarchy is protected from within. So much sh*t went down.
I can so relate to Roxanne’s story of early motherhood. My husband and I were part of a high demand religion and I worked to put my husband through college and seminary. Our daughter was born in ‘92 after my husband completed his undergrad and our son was born in ‘95 after my husband completed his MDiv. I remember the isolation and gender role expectations placed on me. I was an educated, accomplished young woman in my own right and yet I was not allowed a voice in the church or to be involved in a truly meaningful way. I was also criticized for working outside the home as my place was to stay home and raise the children. It was an unattainable standard to place on the wives of married students.
Loved this episode and really resonate with story Rylee. I’m the oldest and was the black sheep of my family growing up and for many years in my early adulthood before I was able to rebuild my relationship with my family. I loved the part where John said you were a pioneer in your family. I’ve always felt that way. I was the first to challenge the church and to leave out of my siblings. Now 3 out of 4 have left. In many ways I opened up my parents minds to embrace more individuality instead of believing that everyone had to fit into the same box. It’s created a much healthier family dynamic, even though my parents are still active, believing members.
Thank you so much for this comment. There's a sense of belonging when you know others had experiences similar to your own. I know I'm biased - but it feels like everything is roughest for the oldest!! Essspeciallyyy leaving Mormonism.
Oh my gosh. John's comments towards the end about how societal priorities are individual health, family, then religion, but high demand cult-like religions flip the order with religion above all-- absolute gold. Church members will still say it's family 1st bc they're trying to keep the family together forever bc they just 'love each member so much', but in practice, it's excrutiatingly obvious how religion comes 1st. Family relationships, & the mental health of *everyone* involved are utterly & unapologetically demolished over differences in belief, opinions, & lifestyle. It's gut-wrenching how overlooked that fact is. Side note, female in STEM here in Silicone Slopes. Go ladies! We need you! Thank you JoCee for shining a beacon for other ladies to see. Other note, Rylee, fellow eldest & 1st black sheep here. Way to charge forward as you did, your courage cannot be understated. Much love to you, sister! Your pain is infinitely relatable & I'm sorry you had to pave that road feeling so alone.
From South Africa... This must surely be my all time favourite podcast and I've listened to many. Cant wait for Part 2 but its past midnight here...Rylee, you were brilliant ❤ When i "wrote my letter of resignation" my only answer was that i could no longer live a lie knowing what i knew. That was 17 years ago and today i am grateful i made that decision because IMO as long as one's name is still on the records you're still "one of them". I applaud your strength of character. May you inspire others to follow their truth. Much love ❤
Wow, I am so touched. It's humbling to think although we live in different hemispheres - we had similar experiences that lead to the same course of action. Congratulations! And thank you again for sending the love, support, and kind words
I grew up near your Grandparents in Roy! Your Grandma was a saint, she helped support our family with little acts of kindness when we were going through some hard times when I was a young teen. I connect with your stories on many levels, thank you for sharing!
I feel so relatable to Rylee! I am looked at as the “black sheep” because I am raising a son who gets to make choices about religion for himself. I have chosen to leave this religion for myself, my husband is on the fence. But my son it has always been a choice because it wasn’t one for me. I am given names and titles and whatever by varying members of my family. Yet I’m the only one who graduated from college as far as siblings go, I didn’t want to get married because of the gender roles I was taught in Utah. I don’t live the typical Utah gender roles. There is nothing wrong with them, but I never fit in with them, so I was looked down on. I graduated high school in 1999, so when Rylee was in elementary school. But I wasn’t taught to think critically. I still question if I do or how I do it. My parents have said the same thing about me and my feelings with the church! It’s a very personal injury to them. Not the child that is a drug addict running from the cops, or the one who conforms in every way to what my dad wants and can’t think for himself and has never had a job he got on his own. But I am the problem because I ask questions and I challenge what I think. Sorry didn’t mean to make this all about me it’s just so relatable that I feeling like I’m jumping up and down yelling “I get it!!!” I get what you mean and you are not a black sheep! You are an amazing young woman who had the guts to jump out of something she didn’t believe early and I wish I had that kind of bravery!!! 3:01:12
I'm a never mormon but relate to Rylee so much. I'm the oldest of 3 girls and my parents also really struggled to let me experience life and held on too tight. I was also the black sheep growing up and was keenly aware of that as a teenager and young adult. It's taken years to build a relationship with my parents as an adult and also their child. I'm so thankful to be able to hear her story and find so many pieces that I connect with.
Thank you all for your authenticity. Its helped me to hear that your parenting caused some harm and we are doing the best we can. Your speaking frankly helped me know how I can just speak frankly to my adult children about anything. I will most definitely follow your lead. Who knew you could just speak to kids so frankly? Made my day. All the love in the world.
Ive been listening for a while and have had no idea why I find these so interesting as a never mormon. But theres always something relatable in these, mormon or not. And there is always something inspiring about people breaking out of their mold. I deconstructed from baptism when i went off to college, and now i'm a college drop out, tattoo artist (yes i'm covered), and a nihilist. Ive never felt more at peace and happy with myself.
I love how respectful and honoring they are when they talk about their parents.They are certain of their parents unconditional for them which is such a gift.
20 years later, tears streaming down my face, listening to her words. That exact reason I have not removed my records. My last known record is in the ward that My mom grew up in from the age of two. And I just have a feeling whoever they call Will know my mom or grandma and I’ll get that same call she got from her dad.
My family moved to the Porter street just before my kindergarten year. Jeff and I became best friends in the neighborhood through elementary. We had our own "bub" language. The Porter house was the gravitational center for all the neighborhood kids. For most of that time, Jeff's dad raised his family of six kids through his own business making and distributing stuffed animals. Perhaps because our family also had six kids of similar ages and my dad raised our family on a high school teacher's salary, I never thought of the Porters as "destitute." I'm sure their dad sacrificed a great deal and whatever extra was had went to his six kids. They had great Christmases. There is a lot of nuance to their grandfather's story which I hope the grandkids appreciate. He is a great man in his way. This is not to discount the grandkids' impression of the past, likely gleaned from Jeff's stories over the years. It's only a comment from someone who shared part of this lived experience. I loved this Mormon Story. Jeff should be very proud to have such exceptional daughters. Shine on, both of you!
I have enjoyed this podcast. Thank you for sharing with us. I love this pod cast and listen every evening. This is a sad tale. I also turned away from the church when I attended USU. I was away from the church for 12 years. I returned and raised my children in the church they were both raised in the church and served missions. After a move and retiring, I am the one that is slipping. Being a Mormon has always been a part of my life. After this move I have not always felt a part of it. I am single and retired, but I appre😮ciate your conversations. I love to. , it helps others, thus church has been my life. I have some hard questions to ask, as settle! Love Nrphi andNrphi and slam am, study the gospel. I love the history of the saints. I have 4 sides pioneer ancestors that came to Utah for the church from many places. I love the church, but it can be hard to live. 😮 good luck to every one, thx 3:14:22 my for sharing your wonderful story with us. Love for everyone. Thank you all if you . ❤️ hi
Great interview. Glad MS decided to let the interview flow and have a pt 2 focused on Jocee. Both ladies are incredibly articulate and thoughtful. So sad the church created a wedge in their relationship growing up. Cheers to both ladies bravery! Rylee is a special person. I hope the interview and audience support help her release any insecurities and pain she may still be carrying. 🙏🏾
Wow. I didn’t grow up on the East coast, but the Midwest with an investment banker dad… and I resonate with SO much of what they’re saying. Moving to Utah, seeing cultural disparities in the wards and stakes, etc. It’s kind of weird to hear some of it stated out loud because it seems like such a unique and different lived experience. Thank you for sharing your story!
The concluding segment concerning parenting is truly remarkable; it presents an exquisite blend of authenticity and humanity that is deeply moving and beautiful. It manages to capture the essence of parenthood with an honesty that resonates profoundly.
Love, love, love this episode. I relate a lot to Rylee- I knew in my soul that something was wrong with the church when I confessed to my bishop who was also my paternal uncle and neighbor, about making out with a boy when I was a teenager. My belief was that I didn't to go through anyone to have a relationship with God. Most of my paternal family are stil TBMs. It's interesting to know from a young age that you don't share the beliefs of your immediate and extended family. Thanks for sharing Rylee & JoCee! Excited to hear more from JoCee on the next episode.
I’m very thankful my parents encouraged us to question everything. It applies to everything not just religion. We all need to think more critically. The world is full of information that should be questioned.
My family was the same- literalist believers, but culturally we are an international family, and both my parents were converts. So I too didn't discover a lot of the really weird social norms of the church until I was in college, and the often hypocritical application of doctrine until much later. Not being from Utah - and especially having no roots in Utah - is truly a very different Mormon experience.
2:53:30 This is why I had planned to never resign from the church even though I left years ago. Even though my immediate family is supportive, my relatives are TBM and I don't want to have a conversation like this. The thing that finally made me feel morally obligated to resign was when the article about the church covering up sex crimes against children came out.
What the Church did as reported by that AP Story is unconscionable. I have a lot of respect and admiration for your decision. Personally, I was hoping some of my loved ones would consider leaving after that same event... Thanks for your comment
I like the fact that Rylee started doing research & going down the rabbit hole at 18 before the CES letter & before a lot of things came out in the open about the church, Rylee if John ever lets me share my Mormon story i would love to have you, Margi & Nate from black menace be a part of it
Your channel has been my rock! Thank you for blessing my life, I can’t imagine how I would have done it without you and your amazing interviews ❤ Much love to all of you!!
To be fair.. moving anywhere with a new culture is rough. We moved from the Seattle grunge culture to Colorado mountain sport culture, and my entire 8th grade year was culture shock, having nothing to do with religion. I literally didn't talk to anyone at school for a year, worst year of my life up until that point. People are still people regardless of religion. The baseball bat incident is absolutely horrible. Though sadly, horrible things like this happen other places as well. Religion or no. But yes- when religion is involved, weird social dynamics are created around behavior. When you say you are the most righteous and most correct, then there's a that higher expectation to at least back it up with action. And secondly, there's a resistance to accountability, because admitting you're ever in the wrong is like admitting you're not a good Mormon, that you might not go to heaven.. it's like admitting your church might not be true, etc. So there's this undercurrent here of not admitting wrongdoing, and everyone understands that no one will and that's the way it is. I have to say though.. public education here is pretty shockingly bad. Have to agree there.
Rylee, when I was in 3rd grade, the teacher asked if we knew where the garden of Eden was located and I raised my hand and yelled out “MISSOURI”. Everyone died laughing and I was so mad when I got home from school at my parents for telling me that!!
It’s usually difficult for me to listen through an entire Mormon Stories episode because of how long they are, but I could not put this down! Thank you so much for sharing your story.
I'm surprised to hear that Utah is inferior in education. When I was a kid in the Mormon church outside of Utah, all I heard was how important education is.
I think this is the first time I've ever heard anyone talk about loving hiking and the outdoors in Utah on a mormon stories episode. I am a nevermormon who moved from the east coast to colorado, and my favorite thing in the entire world is going on road trips to Utah to hike and take photos and be in nature - it really is like Mecca. I have been very tempted to move to Utah just to be closer to the national parks but the culture is so conservative. It's insane to me that people grow up in Utah and make the church their entire life when the outdoors is RIGHT THERE and it is so amazing and like nowhere else on earth!
Mormonism has been a very exclusive religion since its inception. There should be ZERO surprise that they have been intricately involved in matters of money seeing they coined and issued their OWN gold coins for commerce within their communities.
Margi…we are ALL waiting for your foundation/ skincare recommendations!!! Your skin is so glowing and beautiful 😻 ps… Thank you for all your heartfelt comments and questions during this episode. You are amazing.❤
My parents can’t come to the table! My parents are currently on a mission and I brought up Ensign peak before they left and my dad didn’t know what it was or that it existed. He told me it was “fake news” literally that is what he said. So I give much credit to your parents especially your dad. 3:04:04
Completely understand your frustration and emotions, my family has also managed wealth for the church and my stepmother is secretary/assistant to the president and prophet Russell M Nelson. Just as Kirton|McConkie Law firm has done extensive damage to the reputation of the church concerning abuse cases and the bishops help line, Ensign peak has become a big part of the church’s history of neglect and abuse of power and wealth. These corrupted institutions shield the church from accountability! I’m feeling not so alone today, thank you for sharing.
Rylee I find it very interesting that you had questions about the church & certain types of doctrine waaaay before you went to college, but it's stories like these that let me know I'm not the only one who went through this & that the path I'm on, being a Heterodox Christian is completely okay, and by the way my mom is a believing Christian who doesn't believe in going to church as well, your mom is a rockstar and I hope your mom knows that we got her back and I will keep her in prayer 😊
Hello! Great interview with these two intelligent women! Thank you! My only issue was, as a Mexican American Roman Catholic, I felt really uncomfortable with one of the sisters saying kind of a blanket statement saying that Mormons and Jews were the only ones that are good with money. That is very stereotyping, especially for Jews. And then saying that Mormons were really the only sought after upstanding citizens that don't drink, have the discipline, good families, etc. to be able to have a really great career. Maybe it wasn't meant to come off offensive, but it kind of did. My dad worked for over 25 yrs at Honeywell, has been married to my mom for over 54 yrs, and raised a very good family coming from poor migrant workers that lived in tents growing up alongside the fields they worked. He was (is)disciplined, a Veteran, well educated, rarely drank, polite, a gentleman, worked really hard to build up something for his family, and so did the rest of his dozen siblings! And they were NOT Mormon but a Christian faith. Just something to think about before saying blanket statements like that, especially about the Jewish faith.
I’m glad they circled back to Rilee’s Primary Care Physician being her Bishop, that seems almost out of character for their parents to choose that from how they’ve been described. Maybe it’s just a way smaller area than I’m imagining. No judgement, just interested in all the psychology, I blame John & Margi 😉 Thanks for sharing with us! Edit: THE TEARS. 😭 ALL the validation. 👏
Ethically I think your doctor should have to recuse himself if he is also your Bishop. You can’t be honest to your doctor. 2:33:26 Oh funny. Right as soon as i was posting, the other daughter mentioned it.
My great aunt started the church in the Bessemer/Birmingham, AL area. She converted her sister in law, my grandmother, and the church began. Both of them have large families. The church grew because the families kept having children. My mom was youngest of 10. My dad was Baptist. Most of the time we went to the Mormon church on Sundays, Primary on Thursdays and later Mutual on Wednesday night. When I was in high school, my brother and I were in the branch's first seminary classes. My dad was a really good baseball player in college. During the spring, we went to the Baptist church the required number of sundays to make Daddy eligible to play :). I had two brothers and though there was a lot of pressure for us to be baptized but my dad said no. We could join the church when we were 19 if we wanted but not while he had a say. Daddy was roped into lessons many times. The last time, my uncles began, and he stood up and walked out. Nobody got mad at him but he let them know he was NOT interested. Every testimony meeting, I pledged my belief in the church, Joseph Smith and David O McKay. I always asked the congregation to not give u on my dad. My brothers and I were baptized but were pretty much Jack Mormons. As a young adult I was reading a book titled Mormon Murders. I was blown away by the temple rituals that were revealed in the book. I exclaimed loudly and woke my husband. I read parts of them to him. "Was Joseph a mason!" he asked. I didn't know. "Those are the masonic rites!!!" My heart sank. I had my doubts and reading that book raised more doubts. I had been attending the episcopal church with my husband and children. Big question was, why were the church leaders worried about forged documents??? I never went back. I joined the episcopal church and have never regretted it. Later in my mother's life she enjoyed calling herself Mormon but knew nothing about it. When her sisters encouraged her to do her temple work, she called is BS. As my parents reached their twilight years and both had dementia, my mom was pressured to persuade my dad to be baptized. My brothers and I had guardianship and conservatorship for my parents. When my cousins approached us about having our dad baptized. We simply said no. We reminded them that they could do their temple work after their deaths and we would not object and we didn't. Since all three of us had left the church many years before they accepted our decision. Our thoughts were, it seemed our dad was protecting us from that church. He never spoke against; he just didn't believe. We felt good, knowing we had provided the same for him.
I remember thinking to myself as a teenager, if I'm a black sheep, at least my wool doesn’t stain as easy. And it was so true when I officially left the church. It was easier for me because I wasn’t exactly a pillar of Mormonism, so I had nothing to lose leaving.
It's really refreshing because I have felt the very same way since we moved back to Utah my God My Relations Neighbors could not get me to go to the society Christmas party and therefore hardly getting up and talk to me now you understand everything you're saying
I am so happy I found this channel. I grew up jack Mormon in Oregon and I still (in my 40's) are realizing the mal adaptive effects of my relatively periferal involvement in the church. Its intergenerational. My parents really dislike my need for transparency and truth. Its offensive to them because they want to remain in their delusions and are afraid of losing it all and starting over. I get it. Its still cowardly. It won't kill them. I've had to start over many many times.
I read "Dark Money" by Jane Mayer, years ago. I remember I couldn't finish it because it was so shocking & upsetting...the GREED, the power, the GREED, the money, and did I mention the NEVER-ENDING GREED!!!
I’m crying! Post Mormons are an amazing group and so loving and welcoming and validating! Completely agree! The community I have met through this has been the thing that has kept me going. They have helped me know I’m not alone even though I am alone in my beliefs. Completely agree! They are such wonderful people and this podcast has been so helpful and stories like yours and soon JoCees is so helpful! ❤ 3:13:37
Having grown up as a south Jersey Mormon, I relate with so much of this. Little different flavor down south in my beach community but so many similarities. Early morning seminary consisted of 8 high schools, including kids attending catholic school. Huge socioeconomic and ethnic diversity. Very faithful and a very close family that we were never able to find living in Utah (no offense to Utah). Anyway, despite my current beliefs, I have similar very positive memories of my New Jersey mormon upbringing.
This reminds me of my mom and dad. And my mom was from Brigham City also and my dad was a journalist. We lived all over the world and my mom followed my dad everywhere but she would have been happy to live in Brigham City!
This hits home for me so powerfully, on multiple levels: the black sheep; the parent; should I stay or should I go; if I put my own mental health of it all as a top priority will I make myself a lone man in the world?
It's been humbling to see how many people can relate to what I'm now calling "black sheep syndrome" - turns out we're a herd of our own! We don't need to feel isolated 💛
I met this friend and when we began to get along well, it was stunning how quick we recognized each other as black sheep from LDS families without even bringing up the topic, it was intuitive. It's sad to see cool people like him and these young ladies in the flesh, and know we all went through this LDS ordeal. I look back and realize that my first 26 years were a struggle to escape, I had to play along against my will many times to survive, becoming self sufficient was my obsession and I earned my freedom until I moved abroad to another continent. To this day, low key peer pressure continues and communication with relatives is cut off at different degrees and I ghosted some of them completely.
I HATED going to visit the cousins in Utah every other summer. Going to church there was awful--everyone's best friends were already mormon so they didn't care if new people were visiting at church. Back home, we went nuts over new people coming to church/activities. Years later my company asked me to move to SLC and I said you'd have to double my salary. They laughed thinking I was joking. Nope!
Living in the San Francisco Bay area for 30 years I really noticed a difference about how Mormons were down there they didn't drive you nuts like they do here they were very easy going and tolerant more tolerant I noticed how Untold rent Mormon to wear when we move back here due to job situations and how judgmental they are here in Utah not like that change of attitude whatsoever
Love these two girls stories. I can relate to the hard shock of moving to utah. I was born in the church and moved to Utah when I was 16 and my shelf was first formed because of it. Utah Mormons are the absolute worst!
Wow!! Thank you John for giving these beautiful girls a platform to tell their truths. Rylee I appreciate you, your story and how courageously you followed that nudge from within. I am excited for JoCee's story. p.s I think I'll use the brownie analogy for the rest of my life now haha
Haha! Yes! Love that! The 💩 brownie metaphor has helped me articulate myself to well-intentioned members over the years!!! Spread the word. 💩 brownie! 😜
1:47:01 upstate NY convert shows up to Utah at BYU, feeling like a COMPLETE outcast in every way possible. It’s so so true how different the east coast is. I mean these are girls raised by Utah Mormon parents, and even they could feel the difference. So so hard.
Baptist Cult survivor here… we are all human which means we are all imperfect. We can’t be perfect parents and to say we can or were is lying. When we allow our kids to understand that, we allow our kids the freedom to try their best in everything they do while accepting that their best, at that time, may not be later in life. It allows us to continually learn and grow and isn’t that the joy of living life?
I hope Rylee allows JoCee to talk in the next interview lol 😂😂😂 Rylee reminds me so much of me. I apparently won't let my family talk haha! Very interesting interview ladies! ❤❤ I am Baptist and we know a missionary family who moved to Utah to lead a Baptist Church there. They were treated horribly and the kids were really treated badly at school. Apparently the Mormon kids hated them. It was so bad the family finally moved back to TN. I had never met a mean Mormon when I heard this story so I thought maybe all Mormons were mean but hid it well, this explains so much!
My late husband wanted to move to Tennessee, had he not gotten cancer. I still want to move there….and now that I have left the LDS church, it seems that much more plausible. I had a friend in 4th grade, that said that they were practically ran out of Utah for being Catholic! That was my first introduction to ‘Utah Mormons’. I had since found out later, that yes, Utah Mormons did have a bigger stick up their arse than other Mormons. They have an attitude because of being closer to the church presidency, yada, yada, yada. So they act like they are better than everyone else….and some actually believe that they are, because of their ancestry links to original founders of the church, etc.
@@dianasimplifies……There are just 2 things about moving there that concern me most…..1) The nuclear power plants that are all over the eastern U.S. Granted, we have the biggest one in the U.S. just west of where I live, the Palo Verde nuclear power plant, west of Phoenix, Arizona….I’m in Mesa, AZ. And 2) My son has told me that the ‘tornado alley’ that was over Oklahoma, Kansas, Texas, etc…..has shifted eastward towards Tennessee, Georgia, etc. I researched this, and found out that it’s true. Do you have any suggestions about what parts of Tennessee I would feel ‘safer’ in? I DO LOVE the greenery, forests, and people! I was looking at eastern Tennessee….was even thinking that the sleepy little town of Elizabethton would be nice…..until I researched and found out that the F.B.I. has Elizabethton listed as one of the most dangerous places to live! Say what?! They said that there was every gang represented there! Holy cow! Why aren’t the law enforcement doing anything about such an ‘occupation’?! Needless to say, my research has become more interesting and frustrating. I’m finding out that most places are beginning to be filled with these ‘sleeper cells’, as the border continues to be flooded. That’s so sad. I just want to live in a friendly, family, cozy little community. Do those exist anymore? Oh, I forgot about #3) Living near a GREAT QUALITY hospital, with VERY competent doctors…..’just in case’. I’m fine right now, but my current husband has some health issues, and is seeing a couple of specialists right now.
There are thousands of home schooling kids in Utah that have left public education. Often their parents were average and poor but wanted the best for their kids.
My wife recently left and we told her (very active) family. It was wonderful with how loving and understanding they were. Me personally I wish I could be as open with mine. My family and friends, I love them to death. But opening up about these things turns me into a problem to be solved and so many assumptions and justifications are made to as why my feelings are wrong. It’s not a fun situation and I wished I had more people would understand.
As another black sheep of the family i relate so much to riley and relate to her reasons for leaving and relate to the church losing moral credibility. I never had the language to describe that and when she said that i was like yes thats it for me too! Left at 18 and was distant with family for years as well.
I’ve been the black sheep of my family for forty wonderful years after leaving the church and I’ve never regretted it once.
I love your energy. May I aspire
.
Same story here. ❤
Good on U!!! 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
Mormon Stories was a lifeline during my transition out of mainstream Mormonism. Thank you John and your amazing team.
Me too. I owe John and OSF my deep gratitude and why I continue to donate to this cause.
❤❤❤❤
I'm the only inactive member in my family, and we don't talk about it at all. I never had parents that encouraged questioning authority. It's heartwarming to see people getting out so young.
Right there with you. I can’t even say the most benign argument or criticism without being berated by my family. I have to choke it down. It makes for very stressful interactions 😟
@@Katherine-ep3msyou need to get out of there and to somewhere safe.
I left the church decades ago after the way I was treated after a somewhat bitter divorce. I had no one. I’m SO glad there is a community now…❤
Irregardless of how someone feels about the Church, doesn't make it false. It's STILL the One and ONLY TRUE CHURCH/GOSPEL on the face of the earth, PERIOD! The Gospel's True!
@@darantibbetts8497chill. No one is going to change their religious beliefs from your random and aggressive comment. Just let people be
Irregardless ?
@darantibbetts8497 so wait, you say it is the one and only true church?! Bro! So my religion as a Christian is FALSE then?!
@@darantibbetts8497 I was only commenting on people having others who understand them in a time of need, not about the truth of the church’s teachings. I’m glad you found your community in the LDS church and that works for you.
Once again commenting to say that I so appreciate Margi as a cohost and her thoughtful and insightful questions and comments. Every episode she’s in is better for it. Very powerful!
Was invited to speak and play at one of the dinners Ensign Peak hosted. After sharing my emotional story, brochures were passed out on how we can invest in an effort to support the Church. 🤦🏻🤷🏻 Of course, I waived my performance fee that fed my family.
Another reason I broke from organized religion. 🤨🙁
Thank you for exposing how this Mormon Money Machine really works.
Never ceases to get more appalling
😂😂dang man
I'm a very recent (yesterday) retired librarian and music teacher. I left Utah in 2000 to teach abroad. I had grown weary of having to face off with holier-than-thou, ultra-conservative BOOK BURNERS in the 84414 zip code. Your loss, North Ogden. I've had a very enjoyable career, working with a diverse population from across Europe.
To Jocee - I’m a woman in STEM, a software E graduate working in missile defense and just wanted to say thanks for your activism. I’m blessed to work with many intelligent and diverse women in my particular team but I remember in my classes being either the only woman or one of two. Cheering you on from Alabama ❤️🎉
You message seriously made my day! Thank you so much ❣
I’m a woman in STEM (forensic science) and there’s more women in this field now…the only issue is we’re still attached to that “thin blue line” and “boys club” mentality so thank you for supporting your fellow sisters❤❤
I love the representation! My undergrad was mechanical engineering with only a handful of women in some of my large lecture classes. I remember being shocked when I went into my biomed engineering grad school classes and it was half women; I hadn't even realized I was so used to being in the vast minority! Now I'm in IT, and still in the minority (but not quite as much).
@@katesanders2219I hear you. I graduated from Civil Engineering @ UAlberta in 1980. In 1st year, 17 females in a class of 700. By Christmas it was 15 in 350 students. I think we almost all graduated. I had a good career. I loved being an engineer. I discovered that the men I went to university with didn't have a problem with the women. The people who seemed to have an issue weren't engineers. YMMV (your mileage may very) and imnshe (in my not so humble experience). Anita Jensen
2:53:10 - 2:53:55 Is so heartbreaking. This is the aspect of the Mormon faith crisis that I've personally found to be the hardest. Trying to let your parents know that you don't believe anymore and that you have decided to take a different direction for your life because you don't see any alternative but to be true to yourself but also knowing that it will break their heart to see you make that choice and that they may take it personally.
I agree. I had a very similar experience to Rylee. It has taken years and my family still doesn't accept it.
I'm SO happy Rylee got the opportunity to bear her soul and tell her story. And no better people to do it with than John and Margi, who always blows me away with her love and empathy and frequently moves me to tears.
And Rylee, I hope this was very cathartic for you. I feel privileged to hear your story. Thank you.
What a beautiful comment, thank you so much 💛 Being public is excruciating, I'm simply amazed at the perseverance that John & Margi manifest by continuing to do this!! It was an incredible honor to have Margi there with us, her insights are always so meaningful. She elevates the awareness of the entire episode!!
Ditto
X1000
This podcast had me absolutely captivated from beginning to end. Rylee, oh boy, she is an extraordinary woman of remarkable strength and courage. The way she fearlessly shared her story was truly awe-inspiring. I was completely engrossed for the entire three hours, not once losing interest. It's incredible how someone like her can leave such an indelible impact.
You know, life has a funny way of throwing curveballs, and I, too, find myself navigating my own challenges within the church at the moment. Hearing Rylee's experiences was precisely what I needed. It resonated with me on such a deep level.
In a world that can often feel chaotic and uncertain, encountering someone like Rylee, who has overcome immense obstacles, serves as a beacon of hope and inspiration. Her story reminded me that strength can be found even in the darkest of moments.
All in all, this podcast featuring Rylee was an absolute gem. It provided the solace and encouragement I was seeking. I'm grateful for her openness and vulnerability. Thank you Rylee!
@methodtraining. I can not begin to tell you how much this comment meant to me. 🙏🏻🙏🏻
I know a lot of people will say “we wanted a platform” but being public is NEVER easy. Being this public, being this vulnerable with your truth and story in public comes with painful externalities I wouldn’t wish on anyone..
When so many find the courage to be cruel behind the anonymity of a screen name and keyboard….
And then to read your comment. So beautiful, perceptive, compassionate and thoughtful…. To be so kind, to a perfect stranger. How remarkable you are!. Thank you.
I’ve been truly touched by the support of this community 🩵
FYI to John. Mitt Romney went east to Cambridge in 1972. He was admitted to the joint JD/MBA program at Harvard. He graduated in 1975. (I am a classmate.) I remember him as very smart, not seemingly aggressively ambitious, focused, aware of being captive to a family legacy. Plenty of assholes at Harvard Law/BSchool. He wasn’t one of them.
FYI to John. Mitt Romney went east to Cambridge in 1972. He was admitted to the joint JD/MBA program at Harvard. He graduated in 1975. (I am a classmate.) I remember him as very smart, not seemingly aggressively ambitious, focused, aware of being captive to a family legacy. Plenty of assholes at Harvard Law/BSchool. He wasn’t one of them.
Members in my ward growing up in NC used to say “if you want to stay in the church, don’t move to Utah”. No truer words.
Also, the culture is strong in other places in the country where many are from Utah. I am in the the East Coast and when involved, it feels like Utah ; now I am in the position where it just feels like the East Coast 😅
They told me that too 😂
I was the blacksheep and only girl in my family and it took YEARS for me to realize that it wasn't really about me. And after much work, I finally have redeemed myself in the eyes of those who blamed me for much of what was wrong in our house. Spoiler alert: it was never me.
Why did you have to redeem yourself? I’m being shunned by my atheist family after being the lifelong black sheep and there is no redemption in sight. 😢
Thank you, I needed to read this.❤❤❤
@@MartineReedsure sign it's a cult
I’m completely stunned. I’ve been following this podcast for a few months and I always think of my one friend from elementary school. She was the only Mormon I knew and I’ve always had a positive view of Mormons because of her and her family. To see Rylee’s thumbnail completely shook me. I’m from NJ and rode the bus with her. I always wondered how she was doing ❤
John is such an amazing psychologist! As an educator, I just see how so many kids need this support when they’re struggling. No judgement just compassion! Amazing young women! John, God chose your ministry and it’s Mormon stories!
I didn’t even know he was a psychologist! Thanks.
I love this episode. It makes me feel so validated in my own Mormon story. Being the only one out in my family I unfortunately went down the path of feeling isolated so I ended up using unhealthy coping mechanisms. This story gives me hope and a sense personal power. Thank you 🙏
That you for the vulnerability of your post. I feel that 💗
You made the right choice for you leaving. I hope you continue to make right choices to better your life. Find a community, a support system. I wish you all the best on your journey ♥️
I loved hearing Rylee's story. It reminded me of my own story in a lot of ways. I'm glad John called the audible and made this into 3 parts so both girls could tell their story.
At 2:57:00 Margi is simply brilliant. She was so spot on. I was deeply moved.
This was a really good episode, my heart goes out to Rylee.
Sometimes apologizing too much to grown children can cause more issues if they are Narcissistic & want to blame & hold a grudge. I apologized a lot to my now 28 year old. She’s been estranged emotionally since she was 16 & physically off & on ever since she moved out at 18. I noticed the more I apologized the more resentful she became. I left the church right before she turned 13 so she never had to go through Young Women’s or Seminary. She is luckier than she realizes in that regard.
Whew, this one really hits home for me. Starting to have doubts as a teenager is so hard because only members of the church would understand the conversations you want to have, but it’s not safe to have those conversations with them.
In a weird way, as the daughter of a non-denominational Christian fundamentalist missionary preacher who grew up in a state other than TX or the south, I can relate so much with a lot of parts.
She and I were also born the same and graduated the same years. I also did call center work. So many parallels.
So my kids and I weren't the only weird ones? I grew up in NJ and raised my kids in Utah County. I was shocked when my kids told me how much worse the culture was in UT!! I just knew I never fit in, but the fanatical/degrading young womens' modesty presentations, teaching my kids that if they looked up anything negative about the church their computers would get a virus, oh my gosh yes the shaming of kids of divorced parents/single moms!!! I could go on and on about that for hours, the marriage counseling priesthood leaders claimed they could do for everyone in the stake because they had revelation, and I agree so much with how narrow-minded, Puritanical, and crazy the health (sex) ed lessons in high school were (they showed them horror pictures of sexually transmitted diseases and the only protection was abstinence!)
Thank you!!!
My parents moved with my younger sister to North Ogden and Weber HS my senior year- listening to Rylee’s experience sounds horrifyingly similar to her experience in their ward, with her peers, and at the high school.
I was a senior and stayed with family to finish my schooling in utah county with friends, but had MANY moments of absolute disgust and fury when listening to the stories of bullying and ostracizing that she had to endure in that area.
All for being as wise and strong as Rylee… and advocating for truths that I am only recently being exposed to and coming to fully understand.
It is 100% a tale of OZ with families being damaged in the wake.
Love and respect for Rylee and the family. Can’t wait to listen to part 2! ❤
🥹🥹 wow. If only we had known each other in North Ogden!! I’ve had a lot of people reach out at this point saying they had similar tales and related to my experience.
What. A. Toxic. Place!!
If only we could’ve all formed a community somehow!!
Anyways, thank you so much for taking the time to reach out and your kind words. Thank you 🙏🏻
@@ryleeporter1109 if only! From what I saw and heard through my family’s experiences and when I would visit on weekends… and personally experienced with a bishop up there which turned out to be the worst bishop experience of my life. I couldn’t agree more. Very toxic place
@@aprilshowers21 Bishop Shaw? North Ogden toxicity runs long and deep. Interesting to know how many of us had similar experiences in the area.
@@tonyachristensen4428 you know I honestly can’t remember…. I’d have to ask my dad, because I never was actually part of that ward anyway, because I stayed in utah county with my extended family during that time and would only visit on the weekends. All I know is this bishop was HORRIBLE and the experience was beyond traumatic, so much so, that I thought about leaving the church right there and then and never looking back… knowing what I know now, I really wish I had
@@aprilshowers21 I'm sorry it was so traumatic. As I put together pieces from my youth I've come to understand just how much the North Ogden patriarchy is protected from within. So much sh*t went down.
I can so relate to Roxanne’s story of early motherhood. My husband and I were part of a high demand religion and I worked to put my husband through college and seminary. Our daughter was born in ‘92 after my husband completed his undergrad and our son was born in ‘95 after my husband completed his MDiv. I remember the isolation and gender role expectations placed on me. I was an educated, accomplished young woman in my own right and yet I was not allowed a voice in the church or to be involved in a truly meaningful way. I was also criticized for working outside the home as my place was to stay home and raise the children. It was an unattainable standard to place on the wives of married students.
Loved this episode and really resonate with story Rylee. I’m the oldest and was the black sheep of my family growing up and for many years in my early adulthood before I was able to rebuild my relationship with my family. I loved the part where John said you were a pioneer in your family. I’ve always felt that way. I was the first to challenge the church and to leave out of my siblings. Now 3 out of 4 have left. In many ways I opened up my parents minds to embrace more individuality instead of believing that everyone had to fit into the same box. It’s created a much healthier family dynamic, even though my parents are still active, believing members.
Thank you so much for this comment. There's a sense of belonging when you know others had experiences similar to your own. I know I'm biased - but it feels like everything is roughest for the oldest!! Essspeciallyyy leaving Mormonism.
Margri Dehlin, is a special person, I can see her inner glow,🖐👍🙏
Oh my gosh. John's comments towards the end about how societal priorities are individual health, family, then religion, but high demand cult-like religions flip the order with religion above all-- absolute gold. Church members will still say it's family 1st bc they're trying to keep the family together forever bc they just 'love each member so much', but in practice, it's excrutiatingly obvious how religion comes 1st. Family relationships, & the mental health of *everyone* involved are utterly & unapologetically demolished over differences in belief, opinions, & lifestyle. It's gut-wrenching how overlooked that fact is.
Side note, female in STEM here in Silicone Slopes. Go ladies! We need you! Thank you JoCee for shining a beacon for other ladies to see.
Other note, Rylee, fellow eldest & 1st black sheep here. Way to charge forward as you did, your courage cannot be understated. Much love to you, sister! Your pain is infinitely relatable & I'm sorry you had to pave that road feeling so alone.
From South Africa...
This must surely be my all time favourite podcast and I've listened to many.
Cant wait for Part 2 but its past midnight here...Rylee, you were brilliant ❤
When i "wrote my letter of resignation" my only answer was that i could no longer live a lie knowing what i knew. That was 17 years ago and today i am grateful i made that decision because IMO as long as one's name is still on the records you're still "one of them".
I applaud your strength of character.
May you inspire others to follow their truth. Much love ❤
Wow, I am so touched. It's humbling to think although we live in different hemispheres - we had similar experiences that lead to the same course of action. Congratulations! And thank you again for sending the love, support, and kind words
I grew up near your Grandparents in Roy! Your Grandma was a saint, she helped support our family with little acts of kindness when we were going through some hard times when I was a young teen. I connect with your stories on many levels, thank you for sharing!
I feel so relatable to Rylee! I am looked at as the “black sheep” because I am raising a son who gets to make choices about religion for himself. I have chosen to leave this religion for myself, my husband is on the fence. But my son it has always been a choice because it wasn’t one for me. I am given names and titles and whatever by varying members of my family. Yet I’m the only one who graduated from college as far as siblings go, I didn’t want to get married because of the gender roles I was taught in Utah. I don’t live the typical Utah gender roles. There is nothing wrong with them, but I never fit in with them, so I was looked down on. I graduated high school in 1999, so when Rylee was in elementary school. But I wasn’t taught to think critically. I still question if I do or how I do it. My parents have said the same thing about me and my feelings with the church! It’s a very personal injury to them. Not the child that is a drug addict running from the cops, or the one who conforms in every way to what my dad wants and can’t think for himself and has never had a job he got on his own. But I am the problem because I ask questions and I challenge what I think.
Sorry didn’t mean to make this all about me it’s just so relatable that I feeling like I’m jumping up and down yelling “I get it!!!” I get what you mean and you are not a black sheep! You are an amazing young woman who had the guts to jump out of something she didn’t believe early and I wish I had that kind of bravery!!! 3:01:12
I'm a never mormon but relate to Rylee so much. I'm the oldest of 3 girls and my parents also really struggled to let me experience life and held on too tight. I was also the black sheep growing up and was keenly aware of that as a teenager and young adult. It's taken years to build a relationship with my parents as an adult and also their child. I'm so thankful to be able to hear her story and find so many pieces that I connect with.
Thank you all for your authenticity. Its helped me to hear that your parenting caused some harm and we are doing the best we can. Your speaking frankly helped me know how I can just speak frankly to my adult children about anything. I will most definitely follow your lead. Who knew you could just speak to kids so frankly? Made my day. All the love in the world.
Ive been listening for a while and have had no idea why I find these so interesting as a never mormon. But theres always something relatable in these, mormon or not. And there is always something inspiring about people breaking out of their mold. I deconstructed from baptism when i went off to college, and now i'm a college drop out, tattoo artist (yes i'm covered), and a nihilist. Ive never felt more at peace and happy with myself.
I love how respectful and honoring they are when they talk about their parents.They are certain of their parents unconditional for them which is such a gift.
As a fellow family black sheep, I especially appreciate this interview. Thank you to all! 💜
Thank you for saying so :)
20 years later, tears streaming down my face, listening to her words. That exact reason I have not removed my records. My last known record is in the ward that My mom grew up in from the age of two. And I just have a feeling whoever they call Will know my mom or grandma and I’ll get that same call she got from her dad.
Hoping your transition is more seamless! - Thank you for your heartfelt comment
@@ryleeporter1109 l0p😊😊😊p😊
My family moved to the Porter street just before my kindergarten year. Jeff and I became best friends in the neighborhood through elementary. We had our own "bub" language. The Porter house was the gravitational center for all the neighborhood kids. For most of that time, Jeff's dad raised his family of six kids through his own business making and distributing stuffed animals. Perhaps because our family also had six kids of similar ages and my dad raised our family on a high school teacher's salary, I never thought of the Porters as "destitute." I'm sure their dad sacrificed a great deal and whatever extra was had went to his six kids. They had great Christmases. There is a lot of nuance to their grandfather's story which I hope the grandkids appreciate. He is a great man in his way. This is not to discount the grandkids' impression of the past, likely gleaned from Jeff's stories over the years. It's only a comment from someone who shared part of this lived experience. I loved this Mormon Story. Jeff should be very proud to have such exceptional daughters. Shine on, both of you!
These two are just adorable! If you see this, Bro and Sis Porter, they are lovely and raised so well💞
Love the clarity, perspective, intelligent integration by these women. Thank you for your powerful story.
I have enjoyed this podcast.
Thank you for sharing with us. I love this pod cast and listen every evening. This is a sad tale. I also turned away from the church when I attended USU. I was away from the church for 12 years. I returned and raised my children in the church they were both raised in the church and served missions. After a move and retiring, I am the one that is slipping. Being a Mormon has always been a part of my life. After this move I have not always felt a part of it. I am single and retired, but I appre😮ciate your conversations. I love to. , it helps others, thus church has been my life. I have some hard questions to ask, as settle! Love Nrphi andNrphi and slam am,
study the gospel. I love the history of the saints. I have 4 sides pioneer ancestors that came to Utah for the church from many places. I love the church, but it can be hard to live. 😮 good luck to every one, thx 3:14:22 my for sharing your wonderful story with us. Love for everyone. Thank you all if you .
❤️ hi
Great interview. Glad MS decided to let the interview flow and have a pt 2 focused on Jocee. Both ladies are incredibly articulate and thoughtful. So sad the church created a wedge in their relationship growing up. Cheers to both ladies bravery! Rylee is a special person. I hope the interview and audience support help her release any insecurities and pain she may still be carrying. 🙏🏾
Thank you so much for your comment. I appreciate what John did as well.
😊.m.,
Wow. I didn’t grow up on the East coast, but the Midwest with an investment banker dad… and I resonate with SO much of what they’re saying. Moving to Utah, seeing cultural disparities in the wards and stakes, etc. It’s kind of weird to hear some of it stated out loud because it seems like such a unique and different lived experience. Thank you for sharing your story!
The concluding segment concerning parenting is truly remarkable; it presents an exquisite blend of authenticity and humanity that is deeply moving and beautiful. It manages to capture the essence of parenthood with an honesty that resonates profoundly.
Wow, what an incredibly perceptive statement. Thank you so much
Don’t apologize there’s literally thousands of people who need to hear this
Love, love, love this episode. I relate a lot to Rylee- I knew in my soul that something was wrong with the church when I confessed to my bishop who was also my paternal uncle and neighbor, about making out with a boy when I was a teenager. My belief was that I didn't to go through anyone to have a relationship with God. Most of my paternal family are stil TBMs. It's interesting to know from a young age that you don't share the beliefs of your immediate and extended family. Thanks for sharing Rylee & JoCee! Excited to hear more from JoCee on the next episode.
I’m very thankful my parents encouraged us to question everything. It applies to everything not just religion. We all need to think more critically. The world is full of information that should be questioned.
My family was the same- literalist believers, but culturally we are an international family, and both my parents were converts. So I too didn't discover a lot of the really weird social norms of the church until I was in college, and the often hypocritical application of doctrine until much later. Not being from Utah - and especially having no roots in Utah - is truly a very different Mormon experience.
Yes
I would have liked to hear more from JoCees but I did enjoy hearing Riley’s experience.
Yes! Check out Pt. 2 coming Wednesday this week!
I want what JoCee is having...she is so chill!
JoCee is goals🙌
@@ryleeporter1109 you aren't so bad yourself! Great interview!
to be a scapegoat is to be a pioneer in our family. so well put. we are tough people once we go through that.
2:53:30 This is why I had planned to never resign from the church even though I left years ago. Even though my immediate family is supportive, my relatives are TBM and I don't want to have a conversation like this. The thing that finally made me feel morally obligated to resign was when the article about the church covering up sex crimes against children came out.
What the Church did as reported by that AP Story is unconscionable. I have a lot of respect and admiration for your decision. Personally, I was hoping some of my loved ones would consider leaving after that same event... Thanks for your comment
I like the fact that Rylee started doing research & going down the rabbit hole at 18 before the CES letter & before a lot of things came out in the open about the church, Rylee if John ever lets me share my Mormon story i would love to have you, Margi & Nate from black menace be a part of it
Your channel has been my rock! Thank you for blessing my life, I can’t imagine how I would have done it without you and your amazing interviews ❤ Much love to all of you!!
To be fair.. moving anywhere with a new culture is rough. We moved from the Seattle grunge culture to Colorado mountain sport culture, and my entire 8th grade year was culture shock, having nothing to do with religion. I literally didn't talk to anyone at school for a year, worst year of my life up until that point. People are still people regardless of religion.
The baseball bat incident is absolutely horrible. Though sadly, horrible things like this happen other places as well. Religion or no.
But yes- when religion is involved, weird social dynamics are created around behavior. When you say you are the most righteous and most correct, then there's a that higher expectation to at least back it up with action. And secondly, there's a resistance to accountability, because admitting you're ever in the wrong is like admitting you're not a good Mormon, that you might not go to heaven.. it's like admitting your church might not be true, etc. So there's this undercurrent here of not admitting wrongdoing, and everyone understands that no one will and that's the way it is.
I have to say though.. public education here is pretty shockingly bad. Have to agree there.
Margi is the absolute best!
Rylee, when I was in 3rd grade, the teacher asked if we knew where the garden of Eden was located and I raised my hand and yelled out “MISSOURI”. Everyone died laughing and I was so mad when I got home from school at my parents for telling me that!!
It’s usually difficult for me to listen through an entire Mormon Stories episode because of how long they are, but I could not put this down! Thank you so much for sharing your story.
I appreciate you saying so because this is a long one!!
Wow Margie, beautiful response to the black sheep comment! What a gift you both are to these people on your podcast! ❤
I'm surprised to hear that Utah is inferior in education. When I was a kid in the Mormon church outside of Utah, all I heard was how important education is.
I really really like that Margi has joined & been a part of the podcasts more & more in the last year. She adds great perspectives.
I think this is the first time I've ever heard anyone talk about loving hiking and the outdoors in Utah on a mormon stories episode. I am a nevermormon who moved from the east coast to colorado, and my favorite thing in the entire world is going on road trips to Utah to hike and take photos and be in nature - it really is like Mecca. I have been very tempted to move to Utah just to be closer to the national parks but the culture is so conservative. It's insane to me that people grow up in Utah and make the church their entire life when the outdoors is RIGHT THERE and it is so amazing and like nowhere else on earth!
LOVE the outdoor scene in Utah. - Honored to think I'm the first to give the S/O on Mormon stories!
Mormonism has been a very exclusive religion since its inception. There should be ZERO surprise that they have been intricately involved in matters of money seeing they coined and issued their OWN gold coins for commerce within their communities.
We get further into exactly that ^ in Pt. 3 of this series
@@ryleeporter1109 OOO but I need to hear part 1 and 2 first. I'm watching part 1 now thanks.
Margi…we are ALL waiting for your foundation/ skincare recommendations!!! Your skin is so glowing and beautiful 😻 ps… Thank you for all your heartfelt comments and questions during this episode. You are amazing.❤
My parents can’t come to the table! My parents are currently on a mission and I brought up Ensign peak before they left and my dad didn’t know what it was or that it existed. He told me it was “fake news” literally that is what he said.
So I give much credit to your parents especially your dad. 3:04:04
Completely understand your frustration and emotions, my family has also managed wealth for the church and my stepmother is secretary/assistant to the president and prophet Russell M Nelson. Just as Kirton|McConkie Law firm has done extensive damage to the reputation of the church concerning abuse cases and the bishops help line, Ensign peak has become a big part of the church’s history of neglect and abuse of power and wealth. These corrupted institutions shield the church from accountability! I’m feeling not so alone today, thank you for sharing.
That means a lot. It's nice to feel connected! Mormon Stories always helped me feel less alone. Thank you for reaching out, truly.
Rylee I find it very interesting that you had questions about the church & certain types of doctrine waaaay before you went to college, but it's stories like these that let me know I'm not the only one who went through this & that the path I'm on, being a Heterodox Christian is completely okay, and by the way my mom is a believing Christian who doesn't believe in going to church as well, your mom is a rockstar and I hope your mom knows that we got her back and I will keep her in prayer 😊
Thanks Rylee for sharing your story!
Hello! Great interview with these two intelligent women! Thank you! My only issue was, as a Mexican American Roman Catholic, I felt really uncomfortable with one of the sisters saying kind of a blanket statement saying that Mormons and Jews were the only ones that are good with money. That is very stereotyping, especially for Jews. And then saying that Mormons were really the only sought after upstanding citizens that don't drink, have the discipline, good families, etc. to be able to have a really great career. Maybe it wasn't meant to come off offensive, but it kind of did. My dad worked for over 25 yrs at Honeywell, has been married to my mom for over 54 yrs, and raised a very good family coming from poor migrant workers that lived in tents growing up alongside the fields they worked. He was (is)disciplined, a Veteran, well educated, rarely drank, polite, a gentleman, worked really hard to build up something for his family, and so did the rest of his dozen siblings! And they were NOT Mormon but a Christian faith. Just something to think about before saying blanket statements like that, especially about the Jewish faith.
She's talking in general. It's true! Get over yourself.
I’m glad they circled back to Rilee’s Primary Care Physician being her Bishop, that seems almost out of character for their parents to choose that from how they’ve been described. Maybe it’s just a way smaller area than I’m imagining. No judgement, just interested in all the psychology, I blame John & Margi 😉
Thanks for sharing with us!
Edit:
THE TEARS. 😭
ALL the validation. 👏
Ethically I think your doctor should have to recuse himself if he is also your Bishop. You can’t be honest to your doctor. 2:33:26 Oh funny. Right as soon as i was posting, the other daughter mentioned it.
My great aunt started the church in the Bessemer/Birmingham, AL area. She converted her sister in law, my grandmother, and the church began. Both of them have large families. The church grew because the families kept having children. My mom was youngest of 10. My dad was Baptist. Most of the time we went to the Mormon church on Sundays, Primary on Thursdays and later Mutual on Wednesday night. When I was in high school, my brother and I were in the branch's first seminary classes. My dad was a really good baseball player in college. During the spring, we went to the Baptist church the required number of sundays to make Daddy eligible to play :). I had two brothers and though there was a lot of pressure for us to be baptized but my dad said no. We could join the church when we were 19 if we wanted but not while he had a say. Daddy was roped into lessons many times. The last time, my uncles began, and he stood up and walked out. Nobody got mad at him but he let them know he was NOT interested. Every testimony meeting, I pledged my belief in the church, Joseph Smith and David O McKay. I always asked the congregation to not give u on my dad. My brothers and I were baptized but were pretty much Jack Mormons. As a young adult I was reading a book titled Mormon Murders. I was blown away by the temple rituals that were revealed in the book. I exclaimed loudly and woke my husband. I read parts of them to him. "Was Joseph a mason!" he asked. I didn't know. "Those are the masonic rites!!!" My heart sank. I had my doubts and reading that book raised more doubts. I had been attending the episcopal church with my husband and children. Big question was, why were the church leaders worried about forged documents??? I never went back. I joined the episcopal church and have never regretted it. Later in my mother's life she enjoyed calling herself Mormon but knew nothing about it. When her sisters encouraged her to do her temple work, she called is BS. As my parents reached their twilight years and both had dementia, my mom was pressured to persuade my dad to be baptized. My brothers and I had guardianship and conservatorship for my parents. When my cousins approached us about having our dad baptized. We simply said no. We reminded them that they could do their temple work after their deaths and we would not object and we didn't. Since all three of us had left the church many years before they accepted our decision. Our thoughts were, it seemed our dad was protecting us from that church. He never spoke against; he just didn't believe. We felt good, knowing we had provided the same for him.
Another powerful interview. Can't wait for part 2!
Impressive... articulate... intellectual young women wish them all the best on the new journey 🙏
That's so kind, thank you
Eldest sister power!!! Wonderful episode and i can't wait for the next two.
I remember thinking to myself as a teenager, if I'm a black sheep, at least my wool doesn’t stain as easy.
And it was so true when I officially left the church. It was easier for me because I wasn’t exactly a pillar of Mormonism, so I had nothing to lose leaving.
It's really refreshing because I have felt the very same way since we moved back to Utah my God My Relations Neighbors could not get me to go to the society Christmas party and therefore hardly getting up and talk to me now you understand everything you're saying
Margi adds so much To the podcasts. So grateful to have her in more💖💖💖
I was so honored when I saw Margi would be joining us. Her comments are so perceptive, she adds so much to every episode she's on
I am so happy I found this channel. I grew up jack Mormon in Oregon and I still (in my 40's) are realizing the mal adaptive effects of my relatively periferal involvement in the church. Its intergenerational. My parents really dislike my need for transparency and truth. Its offensive to them because they want to remain in their delusions and are afraid of losing it all and starting over. I get it. Its still cowardly. It won't kill them. I've had to start over many many times.
I read "Dark Money" by Jane Mayer, years ago.
I remember I couldn't finish it because it was so shocking & upsetting...the GREED, the power, the GREED, the money, and did I mention the NEVER-ENDING GREED!!!
It's a topic John Larsen could do an episode on, huh???
I’m crying! Post Mormons are an amazing group and so loving and welcoming and validating! Completely agree!
The community I have met through this has been the thing that has kept me going. They have helped me know I’m not alone even though I am alone in my beliefs. Completely agree! They are such wonderful people and this podcast has been so helpful and stories like yours and soon JoCees is so helpful! ❤ 3:13:37
Thank you for bravely sharing your stories
Having grown up as a south Jersey Mormon, I relate with so much of this. Little different flavor down south in my beach community but so many similarities. Early morning seminary consisted of 8 high schools, including kids attending catholic school. Huge socioeconomic and ethnic diversity. Very faithful and a very close family that we were never able to find living in Utah (no offense to Utah). Anyway, despite my current beliefs, I have similar very positive memories of my New Jersey mormon upbringing.
Also totally relate with the challenges of fitting into Utah mormon culture. It was especially difficult for my wife (grew up in VA).
This reminds me of my mom and dad. And my mom was from Brigham City also and my dad was a journalist. We lived all over the world and my mom followed my dad everywhere but she would have been happy to live in Brigham City!
Thank you for giving JoCee time to talk.
This hits home for me so powerfully, on multiple levels: the black sheep; the parent; should I stay or should I go; if I put my own mental health of it all as a top priority will I make myself a lone man in the world?
It's been humbling to see how many people can relate to what I'm now calling "black sheep syndrome" - turns out we're a herd of our own!
We don't need to feel isolated 💛
I met this friend and when we began to get along well, it was stunning how quick we recognized each other as black sheep from LDS families without even bringing up the topic, it was intuitive. It's sad to see cool people like him and these young ladies in the flesh, and know we all went through this LDS ordeal.
I look back and realize that my first 26 years were a struggle to escape, I had to play along against my will many times to survive, becoming self sufficient was my obsession and I earned my freedom until I moved abroad to another continent. To this day, low key peer pressure continues and communication with relatives is cut off at different degrees and I ghosted some of them completely.
I appreciate the authenticity of today's guest & both hosts. Thank you for sharing your struggles with parenting.
I HATED going to visit the cousins in Utah every other summer. Going to church there was awful--everyone's best friends were already mormon so they didn't care if new people were visiting at church. Back home, we went nuts over new people coming to church/activities.
Years later my company asked me to move to SLC and I said you'd have to double my salary. They laughed thinking I was joking. Nope!
Living in the San Francisco Bay area for 30 years I really noticed a difference about how Mormons were down there they didn't drive you nuts like they do here they were very easy going and tolerant more tolerant I noticed how Untold rent Mormon to wear when we move back here due to job situations and how judgmental they are here in Utah not like that change of attitude whatsoever
I love the longer intros.
Just started watching and wanted to say the lighting looks so good in this video!
Love these two girls stories. I can relate to the hard shock of moving to utah. I was born in the church and moved to Utah when I was 16 and my shelf was first formed because of it. Utah Mormons are the absolute worst!
Wow!! Thank you John for giving these beautiful girls a platform to tell their truths. Rylee I appreciate you, your story and how courageously you followed that nudge from within. I am excited for JoCee's story.
p.s I think I'll use the brownie analogy for the rest of my life now haha
Haha! Yes! Love that!
The 💩 brownie metaphor has helped me articulate myself to well-intentioned members over the years!!!
Spread the word. 💩 brownie! 😜
1:47:01 upstate NY convert shows up to Utah at BYU, feeling like a COMPLETE outcast in every way possible. It’s so so true how different the east coast is. I mean these are girls raised by Utah Mormon parents, and even they could feel the difference. So so hard.
Baptist Cult survivor here… we are all human which means we are all imperfect. We can’t be perfect parents and to say we can or were is lying. When we allow our kids to understand that, we allow our kids the freedom to try their best in everything they do while accepting that their best, at that time, may not be later in life. It allows us to continually learn and grow and isn’t that the joy of living life?
I hope Rylee allows JoCee to talk in the next interview lol 😂😂😂 Rylee reminds me so much of me. I apparently won't let my family talk haha! Very interesting interview ladies! ❤❤ I am Baptist and we know a missionary family who moved to Utah to lead a Baptist Church there. They were treated horribly and the kids were really treated badly at school. Apparently the Mormon kids hated them. It was so bad the family finally moved back to TN. I had never met a mean Mormon when I heard this story so I thought maybe all Mormons were mean but hid it well, this explains so much!
Part 2 is all about JoCee!!!
@@mormonstories yep I can't wait! ♥️
My late husband wanted to move to Tennessee, had he not gotten cancer. I still want to move there….and now that I have left the LDS church, it seems that much more plausible.
I had a friend in 4th grade, that said that they were practically ran out of Utah for being Catholic! That was my first introduction to ‘Utah Mormons’. I had since found out later, that yes, Utah Mormons did have a bigger stick up their arse than other Mormons. They have an attitude because of being closer to the church presidency, yada, yada, yada. So they act like they are better than everyone else….and some actually believe that they are, because of their ancestry links to original founders of the church, etc.
@@gracebe235 hope you make it here! And so sorry to hear about your husband ♥️♥️
@@dianasimplifies……There are just 2 things about moving there that concern me most…..1) The nuclear power plants that are all over the eastern U.S. Granted, we have the biggest one in the U.S. just west of where I live, the Palo Verde nuclear power plant, west of Phoenix, Arizona….I’m in Mesa, AZ.
And 2) My son has told me that the ‘tornado alley’ that was over Oklahoma, Kansas, Texas, etc…..has shifted eastward towards Tennessee, Georgia, etc. I researched this, and found out that it’s true.
Do you have any suggestions about what parts of Tennessee I would feel ‘safer’ in? I DO LOVE the greenery, forests, and people! I was looking at eastern Tennessee….was even thinking that the sleepy little town of Elizabethton would be nice…..until I researched and found out that the F.B.I. has Elizabethton listed as one of the most dangerous places to live! Say what?! They said that there was every gang represented there! Holy cow! Why aren’t the law enforcement doing anything about such an ‘occupation’?!
Needless to say, my research has become more interesting and frustrating. I’m finding out that most places are beginning to be filled with these ‘sleeper cells’, as the border continues to be flooded. That’s so sad.
I just want to live in a friendly, family, cozy little community. Do those exist anymore?
Oh, I forgot about #3) Living near a GREAT QUALITY hospital, with VERY competent doctors…..’just in case’. I’m fine right now, but my current husband has some health issues, and is seeing a couple of specialists right now.
There are thousands of home schooling kids in Utah that have left public education. Often their parents were average and poor but wanted the best for their kids.
My wife recently left and we told her (very active) family. It was wonderful with how loving and understanding they were. Me personally I wish I could be as open with mine. My family and friends, I love them to death. But opening up about these things turns me into a problem to be solved and so many assumptions and justifications are made to as why my feelings are wrong. It’s not a fun situation and I wished I had more people would understand.
Wear a Tshirt with Pres Monson's quote, never let a problem to be solved become more important than a person to be loved.
As another black sheep of the family i relate so much to riley and relate to her reasons for leaving and relate to the church losing moral credibility. I never had the language to describe that and when she said that i was like yes thats it for me too! Left at 18 and was distant with family for years as well.
This is definitely one of my favorite episodes!