Both are just faliures of what parents perceive as successful parenting but in reality being just reluctant to understand or put-perspective to even their own child and hold the belt or metal pipe in the name of sweet religion.
I would like to add something respectfully.. I grew up with 2 kinds of worlds- one parent was abusive. They would hit me or slam me on the ground in anger even when it was an accident.. that hurt me deeply. With the other parent, when I did something wrong, they spanked me, but let me define how it was so it’s not misinterpreted: if I messed with an antique i was told not to; they asked me why I disobeyed them, calmly. Then they said you’re going to get 1 spanking- they did, not with furious force, but with a quick, moderate slap to the bottom- not any bruises or marks, and not with anger unleashing it on me- they set me down and told me why I got 1 spanking. They then said I love you, and I would give them hugs: the other parent was unleashing their fury on me. I know the difference between a disciplined, loving swift hit, and a damaging unpredictable beating. I believe a disciplined, spanking is correct- and not slapping in the face or punching! So Christians, please don’t misinterpret these things. Think about them and pray if you are unsure or restless about this...
This was so wrong.What do you think happens to a child when the parent uses abuse as form of punishment.First off it is criminal second you could never drive your child further way from you.So wrong.
@@Bugsy0333 you think all forms of spanking is, has and shall forever be outright the same as violent attacks? I can even agree that spanking should be avoided, but i will not say it is always child abuse.
@@troywright359 Spanking your child is abuse.Physical and mental.You could not drive a child farther away from you by showing your love to them by slapping them.
@@Bugsy0333 Based on what? Where is your proof that a single smack as ;punishment drives children further away from their parents? Do you have proof of any cultures that didn't spank children at all in the past? This is a relatively recent thing in the world, so all cultures everwhere all abused children throughout history in your opinion?
If you have lost any respect for pastor Piper as a result of his belief that we should spank our children then you should never have respected him in the first place. He is a Bible teacher. He is simply teaching what the Bible clearly prescribes in Proverbs. What you should say is how you just lost respect for God because He prescribes spanking.
can you then explain why so many troubled and misbehaved children have been successfully raised (with a lot of work btw) without once hitting them? Spanking is a lazy mans way of discipline!
I believe that there should be a balance between the two. You don't necessarily need to spank every time but I'm sure that pastor John has gone through the regular way of discipline as we know it "time-out" at one point. And of course if the child is not obedient and have heard and understood you loud and clear, what else do you do? It's not a form of punishment. What happens when we are disobedient to God in every way? Yet He is slow to anger and merciful in every way, yet there are times where you know because of your disobedient, there is consequence for it, not just a "time-out" and let it slide from God.
Spanking has to be done right. Spankings should not be used as the main tool for discipline and used infrequently. I only spanked for two reasons. Lying, and in your face rebellion. I never hit with my hands, I never spanked when angry and I never spanked suddenly. And I didn't yelled with threats to spank. And I didn't spank my children after the age of 7, 8 at the latest. Some children respond well to other forms of discipline. My oldest, I never spanked, my youngest maybe got 3 very light spankings in her whole life. My second and middle children I spanked more but not very much more. If you're spanking a lot your doing something wrong in your parenting in other areas. Again, Spanking should be very infrequent and for very specific reasons that the child clearly understands. When Spanking is applied in love, it should bring your child to repentence. At the end of a Spanking, my children would jump into my arms and hug me tightly and tell me how sorry they were, I, sometimes would weep with them and reaffirm my love for them. Hebrews 12. God disciplines those He loves. While discipline is unpleasant when receiving it, and painful, it brings forth the fruit of righteousness. If you don't need to spank, praise God. Discipline needs to be done with much prayer, love, grace, mercy, wisdom and Godly discernment. There were times my children deserved a Spanking but I gave Grace in some instances and didn't spank. To many throw out the baby with the bath water and feel it's one way or the other. Sometimes God has disciplined His people using very painful methods. Sickness, and even death. Bottom line, raise your children in the fear and instruction of the Lord.
"What do you wish? Shall I come to you with a rod, or with love in a spirit of gentleness?" I don't think Paul was talking about a literal rod... neither are the proverbs.
What you think, is what you think. What the Bible means, is what the Bible says. If you see that Paul uses the word "rod" and you think it's not a rod, then either you don't know what a rod is or you were never rightly spanked.
@@salvationbygracealone5111 : No, the bible is incorrect, has errors, absurdities and atrocities in it, and was written by humans. So, you are saying you use a "rod" on your child? Do the authorities know about that? Also, the bible says to "kill your disobedient teenager". Are you going to do that too?
@@anonymousjohnson976 I don't knlw the hearth with which you ask these questions and make this remarks about the Bible. The way you put it could be that you are frustrated with it but really want to know it, or you are frustrated wuth it and have no will whatsoever to understand it. And internet makes this no easier fir me, to understand your intention. So I will therefore not accuse you of something I don't know, eventhough your words tells alot. But I do however encourage you to thing about this: you write a book - how would you like your reader to read it? Trying to read you rightly, or trying to read you falsely? There is in the New Testament a place where Jesus says: "how do you read?" So that's something to think about. All the best to you.
Really ? Deuteronomy 21:18-21 New International Version A Rebellious Son 18 If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” 21 Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.
They are lucky!? Not every method works like clockwork with each child. Also I was a kid who never got spanked...I was just an easy going child. You could give me the stink-eye and I would straighten out, like yesterday!
lucky? nope. If you don't truly want to spank and it hurt you deep inside more than it hurts them. You can find ways that work. If you do want to spank there are also plenty of excuses to use to not change your ways
My father spanked me during all my Childhood and when I was 15 he slapped me on the face very hard because I accidentally dropped a bible. That changed my life forever not in a good way. Im 41 now and I still struggle with insecurity and low self esteem. I have a 2 years old daughter that wont suffer the same fate.
Spanking is good. Whomever withholds the rod does not love their child and whoever disciplines their child, loves them. Your father probably shouldn't have slapped you because it would've been a good moment to reprove you and to help you.
I was spanked and disciplined as a child. And my parents set boundaries for me. I knew to honor and obey my parents. Thankfully they were not abusive but they expected obedience. As I grew older I had learned what was right behavior, and the spanking stopped, and other forms of discipline began. As I hit my 20s I already knew that I shouldn’t behave in certain manners.. and I think if you look at the youth today, who did not receive the spankings or the disciplines or the set boundaries, you will see that a lot of them are in the streets, rioting destroying other peoples properties, hurting other people and calling it peaceful protesting. I’m not saying all children are out there, I’m just saying the lack of discipline that spoil the child and you will see it in your supermarket always in your department stores and on the streets when they’re throwing fits because they don’t get their way. I guess the proof is in the pudding.
@@thor5446 first I would say never do anything when angry. Give yourself and the child time out . That gives you time to think through what they are doing and what the appropriate discipline would be for it; unless it’s something thing is life threatening to them. I try to think what discipline would have the most influence. Like my nephew love playing Mario. So when I’m watching him and he starts misbehaving, giving time out or a spanking has no effect. But if I tell him one time to stop or he will loose playing Mario for a day or week. Then he changes his behavior . But if he doesn’t I follow through, he doesn’t get ten warnings. I have taught him when I watch him if I say I’m going to do something whether good or bad I always follow through. I also explain what ever discipline I am doing with a child. They need to know if they’re able to comprehend why they’re getting the discipline what they’ve done wrong but on the other side I also want to encourage them when I see right behavior. I think the main thing is they consents you’re doing what you’re doing because you love them and you’re trying to protect them and keep them from their life being messed up some of they’re too young understand so it’s consistent Discipline until they understand if I do this, this happens. It’s hard to give you a complete answer because I don’t know who you are or your life. If you’re working and they have to go to a babysitter, they come under another influences. You can only try to get those who watch him to set the same kind of boundaries that you set and to use the same types and do the same way of discipline and I know that can be hard to find someone to watch them . Nobody’s perfect at this. Should give yourself grace and give a child grace. And pray a lot. Hope this helps.
@@Newcreature1957 yeah that is good advice thank you, i also have some practical questions too, say around the ages of 5 and 8, do you think spankings should be given on the pants or are they less effective that way?
@@thor5446 I would only spank on pants never bare skin. And if it’s not effective would try something else. Like I said find something that they really like that they would miss if they couldn’t have or do. And reinforce good behavior. Children always test their limits. That’s why it so important to be consistent with them.
"Withhold not CORRECTION from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die." Be careful what you take literally in the book of Proverbs. Just a few verses back in the same chapter: "..PUT A KNIFE TO THY THROAT, if thou be a man given to appetite." What's the rod that won't kill your child? The "ROD OF CORRECTION" (Prov 22:15). No, this is not some mantra you etch into your paddle. Proverbs is a book of wisdom, so apply some when interpreting these verses. If I really wanted to use the bible to justify "beating" my child, it would be across the "back" with a literal "rod".
Many "Christians" like to pick and choose which bible teachings they adhere to. Gluttony, for example, is one of those sins most "Christians" conveniently ignore, because many of them are overweight and love food. Not to mention being able to afford to gorge themselves with all that food while so many people, including children in third world countries are starving to death. Which brings me to another point. They will also teach against wealth, yet they themselves live in America and are wealthier than 90% of the entire world
It amazes me how people think that in order to discipline a child you either spank them, or put them in time-out. As if time-out is the only alternative to spanking. Educate yourselves. I was spanked often as a child. Do I believe it was more effective than other discipline techniques? No. Do I spank my own child? No. Because I am educated on more effective ways. Believe it or not, it is very possible to raise well behaved, respectful kids without hitting them. Many parents feel that spanking is the only disciplinary tactic in their toolbox. When they feel they have no other alternative but to spank, they act of of desperation. Approximately 85% of parents expressed moderate to high anger and agitation while punishing their children. These findings challenge the notion that parents can spank in a calm, planned manner. Discipline is an important and necessary part of parenting. However, it is our job to TEACH our children, not to harm them. Scientific research has found that fear inhibits learning. The child’s prefrontal cortex (the center of reason and judgement) shuts down. Hence, a child’s behavior during and after a spanking is not thoughtful behavior, its reactive. Discipline should make them think, not cower in fear. Over 80% of parents still spank their children, so poorly behaved children have nothing to do with spanking, since obviously it’s still being done in most households today. Some of the most aggressive kids I know are spanked by their parents. Choosing not to spank doesn’t mean you let your child walk all over you. That’s called permissive parenting. You simply set clear limits and boundaries and help them understand the consequences when they overstep those boundaries. Permissive parenting, not being involved in discipline whatsoever and not communicating effectively with your child is what results in poor behavior. Spanking has nothing to do with it. When spanking is on the table, you will be less creative about problem solving. I urge you to ask yourself, what can I do instead that will accomplish the objective? I promise there are more effective ways if you take the time to research them and apply them.
Thats exactly the problem in my opnion; parents are grown up by the idea that spanking is the only solution. They dont want to invest in a other way to take care of children.. spanking is easy.. So actually they are just lazy.
@@Froukjelovesmakeupx Using violence to solve an issue is what a child does. Therefore, parents that spank or worse beat they're children handle situations immaturely.
I learned that the one verse which talks about sparing the rod (in proverbs not the Torah/Law) in the original Hebrew refers to a teenage son who is about to go under public discipline. That verse was in no way referring to a toddler or small child.
OMG why do people bend over backwards to defend the Bible ? It just amazes me. How about this verse and please let me know what you think about it ok? Deuteronomy 21:18-21 King James Version 18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: 19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; 20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. 21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 King James Version 18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: 19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; 20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. 21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
@@Bugsy0333 that was the old law for Israel, what more do you want? Will you say that the Bible teaches us to sacrifice our kids likr abraham nearly did also?
@@troywright359 Oh please.This is not my first time with this side show. Where in the New Testement does God forbid slavery ? Scripture and verse please ?
@@Bugsy0333 Nowhere, for the selling of ones services as a slave or servant was not considered immoral. Please do not imply that it was used in the same context as modern slavery. I guess because God doesn't forbid illegal pirating of cooyrighted material, He's ok with that also?
I remember when I got spanked as a child because I lied to my father. I lied to him because I was afraid of his reaction to a simple thing I was not allowed to have. Whatever, I remember this situation very clearly when he spanked me because of that (without talking about it) and it DID NOT make me speak the truth in future situations, it made it even worse because my fear of him got bigger. It hurt the relationship to him and tought me that it is better to hide my secrets before my father -- shouldn't a christian father reflect gods character so I know I can come to him whatever I have done wrong? Discipline can also be executed with consequences that do not include spanking and it would still be biblical!!
If you practised good than you have no reason to lie ,the reason why you lied was because you had done evil ,otherwise there would be no need to fear punishment which resulted in your lies .
The question is why did you think/feel that your father would react in a bad way to your issue? When one lies to get out of a situation or conceal something the damage is two fold.
@Ricky Westley and @Lizica Dumitru thanks for your respond. it is clear to me that evil fears punishment. my point is, that as a child should be encouraged to tell the truth! i lied because i was arfraid to get spanked over a nailpolish i was not allowed to have at that age. do you really belive this is a healthy father-daughter relationship how god wants it to be? i did not lie less after that. it even encouraged me to lie more in some every day situations. there should be a way between parents and children to admit what they´ve done wrong and recive consequences for it (yes!) without violence! of course children still lie sometimes but punishment can be felt in so many other ways very deeply.
+LydiaVlogs *"it is clear to me that evil fears punishment."*...*"I lied to my father. I lied to him because I was afraid of his reaction"*...was his reaction a punishment towards you? If so, your own words might condemn you. Now it should be understood why dad didn't want you to wear said nail polish. He may have had a weird or strict standard that he wished you to uphold. Did he communicate to you why you couldn't have it at that particular age? I can sense why he may not have wanted you to have it. *"do you really belive this is a healthy father-daughter relationship how god wants it to be?"* As the LORD has communicated with me, I would wish parents to communicate with their children. Also as the LORD has forgiven me, I would wish parents to forgive their children. I don't know if parents are aware that they must teach their children about their own self worth (not self esteem, different). They are worth something to their parents and to the LORD. They have a dignity, a nobility because they (as all humans) are made in the image of GOD and because of that we/they shouldn't cheapen ourselves with anything. *"i did not lie less after that. it even encouraged me to lie more in some every day situations."* This is the "sight" that is different in individuals. Recall my first sentence I typed...? What kind person do you want to be? One who lies to get out of bad choices/situations that you have made or put yourself into? Is it not true that if you do what is right, you will be fine? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at the door. It desires to dominate you but you must subdue it - Genesis 4:7. This is a principle in scripture and shows the reality of our person. *"there should be a way between parents and children to admit what they´ve done wrong and recive consequences for it (yes!) without violence!"* Agreed. The question is, do you believe a quick whap! on the bottom of a 22 month old is an act of violence? *"of course children still lie sometimes but punishment can be felt in so many other ways very deeply."* You think that same 22 month old understands via verbal communication alone that they cannot go up to a 18 month old and just snatch something from their hands, which will make them cry; or push them over just because the 18 month old snatched something from their hands? I would love if most did, heck, there maybe even some that do.
I don’t agree with how he states this here. “Spare the rod, spoil the child” is not in the Bible. Research it and where it came from. If spanking children was so effective in his generation, then why are there so many damaged adults today. Children do not “have fat bottoms so that they can be whopped “ hearing that statement makes me feel ill. I don’t think Jesus would be saying that. The Bible has multiple scriptures about discipline and raising our children. It is multifaceted. Spanking should only be done as very last resort. John Piper has lost all of my respect in this post. Especially how he answered it, joking and laughing about spanking children. How he flipped this back on to the original person asking the question as if something were wrong with them. I have no respect for this man after this video.
“Spare the rod, spoil the child” actually refers to the Shepard’s rod or crook. Just like how a Shepard’s guides his sheep and cares for them, a father instructs, loves, and instills wisdom and teaching into a child. Spare the wisdom, teaching and instruction and you spoil the child. It doesn’t mean beat you child and hit them. That teaches fear, and teaches them to hit. You wouldn’t hit a adult, because that would land you in jail. You wouldn’t hit a dog or animal, because that would land you in jail. You wouldn’t hit yourself, because that’s self harm and would land you in a mental hospital. Why is a child any different? You can’t possibly correct a child out of love by hitting them and watching them cry out of pain. There’s literally no way. Ladies, if your husband wants to hit your kid, RUN. RUN.
Glad another sane person is around. I cant believe how they discuss openly how they want to be allowed to beat and traumatize their children. This is child abuse, and they are totally ok with it.. Its sick. But i guess they would not like if i came with a rod and beat them... The whole thing has really weird undertones... Thanks for your comment
I struggle with this a lot. I grew up with spanking and think that when the kids are little, like 4 or under it’s perhaps one of the only ways that is immediate and makes sense. Having said that we don’t do it as it’s against the law here in Australia and my wife is a non Christian so doesn’t like what the Bible says at the best of times. I see how hard it is to get out kids to take our instructions serious and the overall decline in respect for adults by kid here and I think it should be allowed. Not abuse, not beating, just a short sharp smack.
@@lpe3259 hi, yes I did. To my knowledge the shepherd’s of the day had a crook for gently grabbing and guiding, or more forceful yanking away from thorns etc and a rod for whacking things and defending the sheep. So they would use the rod to scare and beat animals like wolves
Psalms 23. Thy rod and thy staff comfort me. The rod was used for defense of the sheep, the staff to guide the sheep. The bible says that if you hate your children you spare the rod. But to not spare the rod is to love your children. Just as a loving parent chastises their children with the rod of correction, our heavenly Father also chastises us, for the bible says God chastises those who he loves. You can disagree or argue, but its not me you are fighting against but God and His Word. And if you don't believe God and His Word, you don't have anything to say to me or any other real Christians. Take the foolishness elsewhere
@@weirdflex8158 Exactly. The rod is a metaphor for being a guard against people who are trying to push sin on a child, and those people are the sheep. When it says if you spare the rod, then you hate your child, what it's saying is if you don't protect your child from sin, then you hate your child.
NO! I don't think Jesus would spank a child! Inflicting PAIN on a child is WRONG! In the time scripture was written, and even still today, shepherds used various tools to guide their sheep. They use a staff, or a crook, and a rod. The crook is the curved stick you see in cartoon depictions of shepherds. When sheep fall into a pit or lose sight of their flock, they look down. The curved end of the crook is used to pull the sheep’s head back up and guide it in the way it should go. In the same way, the rod is used to guide sheep who begin to splinter away from the flock back together. It can also be used defensively to keep the sheep safe from predators. This Proverb, as with many proverbs and teachings of Jesus, teaches using a parable. It does not intend for children to be physically punished as the only means of correction. It refers to teaching them through guidance and appropriate discipline. Discipline is about positively influencing behavior in children, not about punishing them. Discipline allows children to develop self-discipline, and helps them become emotionally and socially mature, secure adults. Effective discipline is that which is self-enhancing for the child. Leading children to self-discipline is congruent with Proverbs 22:6, which says, “Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it.”
If I raise my voice, my child is obedient. That’s enough spanking for me. To physically hit a child is beyond me. It’s cowardly. It’s weak. It’s a bad example. In my humble opinion. Maybe because my dad used to beat the crap out of us. We became agressive, violent, hurt and dishonest. Now again, Discipline is important, Jesus rules with a rod of iron. But he doesn’t beat kids with the rod of iron, offcourse. Biblical litteralism reminds me of Paul saying: the letter kills, but the spirit gives life. No spanking in my house. But discipline.
Abuse and discipline 2 different things. Totally different. Discipline is not done in anger. You just deliver the punishment. Thats all. God punished people in the old testament. He told them what he wanted out of them but they disobey.
Terrible take. Spanking is not abuse anymore than saying stop that is verbal abuse. Be happy that your child's behavior changes with verbal rebuke. Many children have stronger personalities and require progressively increasing the severity of the punishment. That may ultimately involve spanking.
When he asked his son Barnabas (3 to 4 year old child) if the child made that crayon mark on the wall, and the child lied, then there was a moral law violated and I agree the child needs to be disciplined. But there was no moral law violated when the child wrote on the wall. None. In fact, the child was honest to admit. I don't think the child was even vandalizing. Children around this age explore quite innocently. He most likely got fascinated with the crayon and its color and what it can do. So why spank or discipline when there was no moral issue involved and the child was just exploring ? What if the child wrote "I love you dad" on the wall, would Pastor Piper have spanked ? The moral law kicks in around 6 years old, not at 3 or 4. We know this because children tend to report to the adult every injustice they see in school at around 6. They tattle-tale. But the idea is never to tell on their classmates but to confirm with the 'hero adult' if what they understood as wrong is really wrong. Around that time, the moral law awakens.
Yes he would have spanked him if he wrote i love daddy on the wall. He was told not to draw on the wall period. Regardless if the truth was told or not does not matter he is getting punished for the act. The law of the household is not to draw on the wall. So what your saying is as long as you tell the truth and didnt break a moral law you should get punished? the law of the land is to wear a seat belt, if you get pulled over, put ur seatbelt on real quick and the police officer asks did you put ur seat belt on after i turned on my lights and you say yes, that doesnt mean oh okay u told the truth so i wont give you a ticket. No you knew the law and you broke it, you get your punishment. He is teaching him how the world works. As a follower of Christ we listen to authority. We discipline in Love. The child was disobedient and was punished. I can bet 1000 dollars he will grow up to be a Godly law abiding citizen. Why? Because of the way he was raised in Godly love and Godly discipline.
"So why spank or discipline when there was no moral issue involved and the child was just exploring ?" far too many people value the wall higher than a child. something soulless is more precious to them than a child. I wonder how many people who can't conceive would even dream of spanking a child if they could adopt one? I don't believe too many. But people who can easily conceive don't really value their child higher than a property. In fact they treat them as property too. Sick
The moral law is that he broke the rules of the house that they establish. From there u are teaching kids there are rules n regulations need to obey in life. Community society law. School rules....respect authority....its a life long learning. Just look at the damage this generation have. He knows it is wrong but he do it anyway....thats ignorant. Also punishment come when u break the rules or law. Its biblical.
If you don't spank and you have open dialog with your kids, you're more likely to hear "I did it, I'm sorry". My newly 3 year old says that a lot. Most of the time she was exploring and experimenting and didn't realize whatever she did was harmful.
Just finished "Becoming Dallas Willard: The Formation of a Philosopher, Teacher, and Christ Follower" which details a tearful apology Dallas had later in his life to his son on this issue.
Everything in life is a balance. It’s ok to discipline but you shouldn’t spank a child for every mistake or spank them for everything they do, that you feel it’s a rebellion or else you would spend there life spanking them. It takes quality parenting, spending time with your children, explaining them what’s the good the bad and the pros and cons in life, having a relationship as a parent not trying to be there buddy.Consistency and parents in agreement is key! I have 4 children and all of them are different.
Spanking is degrading, cruel, abusive, domestic violence, discriminatory, bigotry, unfair, irresponsible and doing unto other's what's hateful when done unto you, there is ZERO instances it's permissible and to ZERO extent. All punishment is one or more of the above and doesn't "guide" at all but "coerces" and there's a stark difference between the two, it's super messed up to just single out one person in the household and give them special (mis)treatment and rules which all else are exempt from, hypocrisy and bigotry. It conditions an external morality compass too, a might makes right ideology and exposes a developing brain to hazardous dangerous chemicals.
He probably spanked his children and just wants to feel better about it. Jesus said, “let the children come to me” when the adults were telling them not to “bother” Jesus. Children can’t defend themselves. You’re just being abusive at that point. You wouldn’t hit your friend for doing something dumb, no. You’d talk to them about it. It’s so sad how disconnected people are from their inner self and how so many people hide behind their religion to excuse abusive behavior.
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. (Hebrews 12:6-8)
Johann wilder rod in the Bible means discipline and discipline means Teach. So I believe the Bible translation Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline the....and in some other translation directly said if you spare your child from discipline. Look at Psalm 23 your staff/ rod they comfort me. When a child is discipline, lead, guide, teach, boundaries set they feel comforted and safe. Not to be disrespectful but we shouldn't hold any preacher or pastors view to heart but we got to study the Bible for ourselves and also the Bible written in Hebrew culture so we got to understand the culture what is rod and staff. It is used for shepherd to guide their sheep back but not to hit them back. In the Bible God said he carried the lost sheep and lamb on His shoulder. That's how gentle, loving and patient He is. He didn't hit the lost Lamb and sheep to come back, He carried them on His shoulder home.
Johann Wilder Don't listen to a speaker, study the Bible for yourself and hear from the Holy Spirit. I BELIEVE AND KNOW JESUS WOULD NOT SPANK A CHILD!!! He said to let all the little children come to me. He is not a hypocrite then it will show Jesus is a liar. Please study the meaning of rod in the Bible, shepherd used it to guide. Read Psalm 23. Your rod = staff they comfort me!!! Not put fear!!!
+Song of Songs the jews have had the old testment alot longer than we have... could u fond me some jews text to support this, cuase im sure they will agree more with the speaker than with you... i agree with you that yes we should read the bible for ourselves amd study.. i found a great deal of earthly doctrine of men to be false when i started reading for my self... and i can tell you that until the 60s with these moderen parenting tech did you ever hear of a softer gentle bible doesnt mean that doctrine.... taken in context, what you read is accurate... again fond a jew that will agree with you on this
Its interesting that he answered what would Jesus Do. We all know that Jesus loved the most vulnerable, those who were shunned by the others. The Lord I know and serve says Love is patient love is kind. Also quoting "treat others the way youd like to be treated". This spanking in nothing but means of control. And as evident some people do use religion as their justification. What would happen when these children grow up and know that you treated them so because of a bible scripture. Would they follow the biblical verses word by word? I highly doubt it. Buble also says didcipline your children in a way not to anger them. Bible also says 'give instructions kindly'. Seems to me that 'spare the rod' scripture is being twisted by some controlling people.
There are so very many people who use the word "spanking" to describe the practice of hitting over and over with belts, shoes, electric cords, wooden boards, mop or broom sticks, bamboo sticks, etc. The good pastor needs to be clear that he either is or is not condoning "spanking" with these kinds of objects. Then he can be asked where in the Bible Jesus condones hitting people with these objects as means of correcting them. (Note: the answer is nowhere. ) There are effective, nonviolent ways to discipline children. I know from experience that they work. I have order and obedience in my home. And I have it with the help of the good Lord, without resorting to sick, abusive, cruel, pain-causing, trust-breaking techniques.
Does God not bring pain to those he loves? If he does, why does he do it? Is he cruel for subjecting his children to pain? He placed his people "in the hands of the Philistines for 40 years" in Judges 13 because of how they wrongfully viewed him. Was God "sick" here because he placed his people in a state of oppression because they did not love and respect him appropriately? You'll find the repeated theme constantly that God places his people in painful danger in order to save them from a greater danger: a heart not drawn to him. God uses temporary, maybe even life-threatening, pain and loss to show us his value and win our hearts over to him. Like Piper said, it does seem there is a disconnect when people scoff at physical discipline (something very much well-accepted and practiced in our justice system in America, but with punitive purposes added) in the context of parenting, but glaze over the fact that God partakes in the very same thing, saying it actually evidences his love.
All punishment is "pain causing" it's the intent to cause pain either emotional, physical or both in order to deliver retributive satisfaction in the one dishing it out and flex their ego/power but is advertised as being for the other person who's experiencing the distress in order to not look so petty/bad and also maybe even get congratulations from other's as misled as they are. I'd also say a great deal of punishments parent's give are all those other things you name too "sick, abusive, cruel and trust breaking" many non-physical punishments are all of those and all of them are breaking the moral golden rule condoned and urged as important by Jesus plus many other revered figures throughout history "Do not do unto other's what's hateful when done unto you." conditions an external morality compass (which is the leading cause of selfishness in the world) a might makes right ideology (which is where it and war come from) and exposes the most important organ by far to hazardous chemicals at the worst possible time too, when it's still developing and that is extremely destructive.
I find this very dangerous. So many parents use this as an excuse to be physically abusive. There are so many better ways to discipline your child, and spanking shouldn't be one of them
@Mrs White I know plenty of kids/adults who hate their parents because they were spanked, as well as being very badly behaved. I also know plenty of parents who never spanked their children, and their children are really well-behaved. What's important is that your children grow up in a Christ-oriented household. And *you* as a parent should reflect the love of Christ. Also, hell is no danger when you are saved, and having self-control doesn't save you.
@Mrs White You want your children to tell the truth, but you don't put them in an environment where they can tell you the truth at all times, and not lie to you to save they're asses. Not telling you is not too different from lying either. So they won't tell you a lot of things that they should.
There are so many instructions/commandments in the old testament. For example: Leviticus 24= 19 If a man injures his neighbor (fellow citizen), whatever he has done shall be done to him: 20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; just as he has injured a man, so shall the same be done to him. 21 The one who kills an animal shall replace it; but he who kills a human being [unlawfully] shall be put to death. 22 You shall have one standard of law for the stranger among you as well as for the native, for I am the Lord your God.’ Will any pastor recommend that Jesus would follow that? Old testament instructions are what they are, old. Old testament's "an eye for an eye" has been replaced by a completely opposite instruction in the new testament, "love your enemies". Pastor John Piper is not God. Even he can make wrong interpretations.
I'm 31 years old, and I am still scarred from being spanked as a child. If God commands us to hit our children, on an erogenous zone, when they are the most dependent on us and the most vulnerable, then God is evil. I only say this because that is how confident I am that He does not command that of us. I would literally rather go to hell than spank a child. I'm saying this as a guy who was raised with the teachings of fire and brimstone preachers. After what I experienced, and knowing what I know now, inflicting such a painful, and humiliating punishment on a defenseless child who doesn't know any better would be *worse* than hell.
God is not evil he moves us he just wants us to raise our children right so we sin. Less and can repent for our sins and join him in heaven he doesn’t support child abuse he doesn’t say I command you to beat your children or you are damned to an eternity in the lake of fire and sulphur no he doesn’t say that he gave us free will and we do what we do with it
“Do not withhold correction from a child, For if you BEAT him with a rod, he will not die. You shall BEAT him with a rod, And deliver his soul from hell.” (Proverbs 23:13-14 NKJV) End of discussion. You either follow your own feelings on this issue or you follow the scriptures given by God himself through the prophets. Read the text. It says what it says. You can interpret away "rod" any way you want--like everyone is doing in these comments. But you can't interpret away "beat". We have a little problem there.
@@brianprentiss Although I do agree with beating a child if they have done wrong. I don't think the bible literally means you must hit them with a rod. Like a few spanks with your hands or a shoe wouldn't be to bad, not to much hits though
@@ladyd3404 yeah well, I think that's interpreting the verse to suit your preference. Inside of one verse you interpret one part literally - the corporate punishment, and another part metaphorically - the rod.
Rod does not mean spank or beat or hurt or strike smh...stop promoting child abuse! If you have to use violence to teach your child you have anger problems and need to learn how to grow up and control yourselves and your feelings. I have NEVER had to spank my child at all and my child is extremely well behaved, well manners and does excellently in school and follows my every rule. If you need help ask for help....don't hurt your child because you don't know how to parent. Violence teaches violence. Physical is abuse.
You are right! An adult should never beat mistreat a child! Children they are small and defenseless they can be scared and sad and feel unloved. Poor little child and it hurts on their body when an adult beat them! That’s horrible 😢 Horrible people who hurts children!🤬
anthony snow Actually,that is not what this Bible verse means.First of all,the full verse is,"Fathers,do not provoke your children to anger,but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the LORD."[Heb.6:4] Most fathers in Paul's day ruled their families with domineering and rigid authority.The desire and welfare were seldom considered of the wife and children.A Christian father's authority over his children were not to be unreasonable demands that would result in anger,despair and resentment.'Discipline and instruction of the LORD' calls for systematic discipline and instruction ,which brings children to respect authority and commands of the LORD as the foundation of all life,godliness and blessing.
anthony snow such a difference between provoking to anger (in antagonism etc) and discipline. Is Jesus God? you say no? then you're not Christian. You say yes then "before Abraham, I am" which means Jesus destroyed Soddom, flooded the world, read revelation he says he is coming with wrath and punishment. Oh yes...he would strike a child, he strikes all of us to discipline us.
This is so wrong, the bible does not say to spank your child, it says do not withhold discipline from your child. Spare the rod saying comes from a 1700 poem about lovers. The bible teach to instruct your children in discipline and accountability, it never once says beat them. I think this is a cycle of abuse, people who were physically abused as a child think it's acceptable to pay it forward to the children under their care. I This k we need to be very careful because alot of parents and even educational institutions are taking this line of thinking and extrapolating it to the point where they are constructing devices like boared paddles and handled leather straps in order to cause maximum pain with minimal trauma. It's disgusting, it's child abuse, and saying Jesus would of taken part in it is heresy.
You are so wrong. WTF. If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city. And they shall say to the elders of his city, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.” Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear. (Deuteronomy 21:18-21
@@Bugsy0333 yeah, Deuteronomy 21 18 to 22 is an atheist favourite, hahaha, they think its some kind of steak to the heart of a christian, They kind of like to misuse it because it says "son" that it means a child. Lol. But the fact is, none of them have actually read the bible for any context, they just repeat what they hear other atheists say, and often ignore the answer they're given, and just move on to the next Christian to try and convert them to the atheist religion. It's talking about a grown man who is a degenerate and does no good for his family or community, a drunkard and a glutton, who doest heed other people. How many children do you know who are drunkards? OT law seems harsh at times when compared to the snow flake culture of todays blue haired secular cry babies, but it wasn't UNJUST ever! We as Christians don't follow old testament law. That part of Gods covenant was finished when Jesus died on the cross. There's a new covenant now and it's the 10 and 2 commandments. You could if you were so inclined, look up videos of Christian scholars explaining these things. I know you won't, though. because let's face it, you're atheist, you didnt exactly get where you are by studying or using your brain. Hahahaha.
@@Bugsy0333 hahaha you really are, but if you stop being so misinformed and stop parroting other atheists, you will bounce back no problem. You can be mad at me, I really don't care. The world hates Christians because they hate God. But if all you have is insults, then I guess that means I won the debate, that was easy I only had to challenge your assertion and you crumpled like a house of cards. Atheist really suck at debate so don't feel bad, 99% are just like you, all they have is insults and ad hominem because they don't actually study the source material in order to form an argument. You should check out biola university, they teach apologetics, and there's one professor who specialises opposed apologetics, so he uses actually challenging versus and stuff to push his students to study harder. He will debate his Christian students from the point of view of an atheist, a Muslim, a Catholic, a jew, you name it. You could learn some new arguements that will actually stand a chance at challenging young unlearned Christians. And itll result in better debates. A good tip too, not all Christians are soft spoken as you can see, so being polite even while debating will get you more pleasant conversations.
@@steakslapn9724 You are the prime example of how Relgion can fuck with a persons mind and steal away ther moral values. Great story but zero fucking evidence. Nothing new here same shit different day. We dont follow the old testament you say how fucking convenient is that.You are a joke.
My mother was the one who abused me physically, mentally, emotionally and verbally. I have PTSD to this day I'm 63. She slapped me in the face at age 26 and all the way up to age 26 as well as age 36. It was humiliating and degrading to be treated like that as an adult. I have had chronic depression and anxiety and severe health problems for the last 35 years. The majority of the health problems can be traced back to trauma and abuse. She would hit me with a belt up to 15 or 20 lashes at a time. I could look at her wrong and I would be drugged down to her bedroom and she'd lock the door so nobody could protect me and she would beat me senseless. She denies it to this day. She has got everybody on her side every single person that's related to me believing her over me. I still have visions of being beaten with a belt all the time. My daddy was just as harsh with a belt as she was. She would be me for talking back to her in a way she didn't like, she would be me for any infractions she could figure out. My two sisters never got hit once. And they did just as bad of stuff including blaming me for everything they did wrong and that I got beat for. To this day she treats both my brothers and sisters as her angels and never calls me to wish me happy birthday as she does the other four and never includes me or my family in the Thanksgiving dinner with the whole family and so much more. I've been treated like a black sheep and outcast of the family. I never did drugs and I never smoked and I never drink any type of alcohol or wine. I did not Go to bars or nightclubs. I did not sneak out of the house. I was actually a really good kid but was raised by a monster who to this day has tricked everybody to thinking she is such an angel and did nothing but be a good parent to me. I have nothing but nightmares of everything she did to me and everything she said my whole life growing up till I was age 60 and finally cut her off. I never had to ever raise a hand to either of my children nor did my husband. We raised them with no spanking whatsoever and they are excellent kids and adults now. They were honor students, they have college degrees, good jobs and are very good people who have never been in trouble with the law or even gone to a nightclub or bar. You do not have to lift your hand and hurt somebody else physically to make them behave. We raised them with a lot of love time attention and affection and that's all they needed to want to behave correctly.
Proverbs 23:13-14 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you beat him with a rod, he will not die. [14] If you beat him with the rod you will save his life from Sheol.
then what is the use of the blood of christ. If he really exists? You could beat people and make everything heavenly. There would be no wars no nothing. But we have them. So that proves the beatings are nothing but idiots loving to get revenge
@@mysteryguy793 He exists alright. I honestly have no idea what is in store for humanity. Just hope for the creator not to be so harsh and have mercy on us. The people who actually deserve mercy not murderers, rapists, and pedos.
You are out of your mind if you presuppose Christ would have used physical abuse on a child. The book of Proverbs is NOT the word of Jesus. Get lost Matthews.
Amen, the only sensible comment on this video thus far... Although I don't know if every child should be spanked, I think it depends on the individual child and the parent... I do know for sure that children need discipline.
But the word discipline means to teach. And by spanking you are teaching this: You use violence to solve problems You lack self control You cannot come up with a better way to teach them other than to hit them.
Paisleyyama: Are you saying god is a human? How do you know? I thought the belief was that god was a spirit, but then explain intelligently "spirit" or "spiritual". If god is invisible, how would one know what this being would even look like? It's impossible.
People nowadays don't know the difference between a beating and a spanking. Spanking: Applying a stinging slap to a sturdy part of the body in a calm, controlled setting to impart discipline and impress a lesson. Beating: An overgrown child taking out his/her anger on an actual child. Spanking is healthy, beating is abuse.
@Diana Lynn Lord Jesus will not raise your kids. It's your job and is what you can do. He will save and sanctify them, and that is what you can't do. I guess then I will also not go work anymore, since I believe in Jesus and He fulfilled the Law. Get first your terms right.
The same word is used all throughout the Bible to describe branches (like a rod of a green poplar Gen 30:37) or sticks. It’s not a specific kind. Basically a rod is what we would call a switch. And the Bible says you beat them with it (Prov 23:14), which in our modern vernacular sounds bad, but it basically means to hit them with it repeatedly. So the Bible also literally tells you how to use it. You can try to explain it away because it’s not comfortable for you, but it is what it is. God is pro-spanking and he’s smarter than you or I. God also says if you don’t spank, you hate your kids (Prov 13:24)
The scribes were reading the Bible and were stuck in laws and rules. Using a verse in the Bible that says to discipline your child with a rod could mean to use the rod of truth ,to teach it by talking to it about the heaviness of it's behaviour and to use consequences to correct it .When researches show that these are effective nonviolent and not dangerous methods to correct a child why take the risk to hurt it? God wants people to be wise not just follow commands and laws like being blind. John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. Many Christian people think that sticking to commands and laws is the answer but God wants them to understand deeply His Spirit. How about staying in prayer to let be informed by Jesus how to behave to children? How about reading the Word with an open mind and let God fill us up with His wisdom? I don't mean to judge you I just hate behaviours of Dominion and humiliation towards children.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 King James Version 18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: 19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; 20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. 21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
I honestly don't know how I feel about spanking. It's in the Bible and I've heard other good Christians swear by it, but my childhood was terrible partially because of the way my parents spanked me. They didn't spank too hard or anything and it never left a mark, but it hurt so bad emotionally. They would always be angry when they did it and I never got a hug or an "I love you" or an "I really wish I didn't have to do this" afterwards because I honestly think they enjoyed it. They would spank me for the tiniest of misdeeds or even when they thought I was being sassy when I honestly wasn't. I remember several instances when I was spanked early in the day and spent the whole rest of the day in my room crying. I never knew what would cause them to spank me so I stayed in my room as much as possible to avoid them finding an excuse to spank me. I developed social anxiety and depression from a very young age and I'm still not completely over it and I'm in my 30's. I have a 3 year old daughter now and I just do timeouts with her and let my husband spank her when necessary because I just can't. I bawled my eyes out the last time he did it.
@@mysteryguy793 Such cannot be properly differenciated in the first place when the opportunity of deciding is given to those who are contemplating of committing the action, because sooooo many of them secretly abuse and torture their children to death behind the name of religion and "educational spanking."
I was punished as I got older by loosing my game boy and Sitting on the bad chair for ten minutes in the days of my teenage years and preteen it worked because I didn’t like to loose that stuff
The rod is a tool to lead sheep. If you do not lead them to the right paths, you do hate them. If you use the rod to hit them, you most certainly hate them, as well. Jesus also said if anyone offends a child, you're to hang a stone around your neck and drown in the sea. Jesus would NOT have spanked his children. Know the book.
Just as well most parents/guardians now take the actual research on parenting and know that hitting a child doesn't do any good at all. I can't believe in this day and age we still need to keep repeating this, but, no, you shouldn't smack children.
Gotta love how all these "Christians" who are opposed to physical discipline are using their feelings, rather than Scripture, as the basis of their position. "Ohhh, but it's just wrong! Ohhh, God is loving!" Blah blah blah.
Johann Wilder please read Psalm 23 your shebet they comfort me. Shebet in Hebrews mean rod, staff, scepter. The Shepherd use it as a guidance, direction, teaching and Teaching mean Discipline. The Bible meant if you spare your child from guiding or leading them not hit. Hit is not comforting and use fear and force. God gives us freedom of choice. That will be so contradicting in God's character if God give us freedom to choose but when we choose wrong thing He spanked us?! That would make Him a liar but discipline is teach and teach us from wrong and right and there is consequences on our choices and He lovingly warn us that if we make bad choices we hurt ourselves, others and God. I explained more on the comments. We really need to examine every Christian as they speak not to say John piper is false teacher. I don't know but I know he is not perfect so always go back to the source
Johann Wilder rod in the Bible means discipline and discipline means Teach. So I believe the Bible translation Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline the....and in some other translation directly said if you spare your child from discipline. Look at Psalm 23 your staff/ rod they comfort me. When a child is discipline, lead, guide, teach, boundaries set they feel comforted and safe. Not to be disrespectful but we shouldn't hold any preacher or pastors view to heart but we got to study the Bible for ourselves and also the Bible written in Hebrew culture so we got to understand the culture what is rod and staff. It is used for shepherd to guide their sheep back but not to hit them back. In the Bible God said he carried the lost sheep and lamb on His shoulder. That's how gentle, loving and patient He is. He didn't hit the lost Lamb and sheep to come back, He carried them on His shoulder home.
Johann Wilder Don't listen to a speaker, study the Bible for yourself and hear from the Holy Spirit. I BELIEVE AND KNOW JESUS WOULD NOT SPANK A CHILD!!! He said to let all the little children come to me. He is not a hypocrite then it will show Jesus is a liar. Please study the meaning of rod in the Bible, shepherd used it to guide. Read Psalm 23. Your rod = staff they comfort me!!! Not put fear!!!
+Song of Songs The bible doesn't just say "rod". It says you shall "beat" your child so that you save his soul from hell (Proverbs 23:14). I do read my bible. That's why I can prove you're wrong. You are being guiding by your feelings and by popular culture. Do you know what the bible says about trusting your own feelings on an issue?
That's not the case back home, where over 12 were still spanked, with rods!!! You talk of three-year-olds, well what about 15-year-olds, or 16-year-olds? I use to hate certain teacher's classes and certain days of the week because of this. Grow up in Nigeria and you will understand "Mild Pain"
Pastor John Piper's example of spanking his child was not a good example of how spanking should be done. What Pastor Piper gave to his son was a slap on the bottom. If you want to know how spanking should be done, read "Therefore Peking University Brothers and Sisters" by Xiao Baiyou. If his children did not study well enough, did not practice the piano well enough, ate snacks, opened the refrigerator, turned on the AC even during the summer, or broke any of his rules, he would hit them on the palms or the calves with a feather duster. He says that each strike must be hard and leave a welt and that his children must count each stroke and may not cry during the canings. If they flinched, miscounted, or cried, they would have to start all over again. His children are graduates of prestigious universities and all thank him for doing so.
And your nice little assumption that non-spankers push kids off to a corner or a room to "feel guilty".. Actually, I would have had my child clean the crayon off the wall. It teaches that if you make the mess, you clean it up. Spankin teaches that if you're unhappy with someone, you hit them. I guess my kids mean more to me than some other people value theirs.
at 3 or 4 years old? Many times, they don't listen to you, telling them not to color the walls. So what do you do? If they can't even listen to your voice to not draw on the wall, how do you expect them to clean the walls after they have colored it? They're too young to understood. Every child is different. But from my personal experience, there's a choice you make but having to spank is not punishment. There's a difference between punishment and discipline and from pastor John's response, it's in the camp of DISCIPLINE because he does go off telling him he loves Barnabas
The Miserable Man and just clean the mess up yourself? You could do that up until they are 18 I guess? I'm not saying spanking is wrong or right. Kids are legitimately rebellious and if they keep on rebelling, what do you do? And there is a difference between hit and spank. I have known good families who are very God fearing and want everything well with their children. They first said no spanking but now its a no no then their child reaches a Very rebellious stage. You can't keep doing time out. You time them out. They wreck havoc in their room. Then what is next? They still go on a rebellious rampage after you say IT'S OK and after you clean up their mess they goto the kitchen to break your dishes. Then you say I LOVE You then they do another rebellious thing. The list goes on. Again every child is different. Every parent is different BUT we must not think that spanking is wrong nor the right solution. It's an option that a parent should seek wisdom from God to see if it is what they should do in their capacity and their environment with the character their child have
The Miserable Man depends how you term it. Some people hit for punishment and not caring for consequence. Some people spank for discipline in that you care and love that the kid would understand his consequence. I have a child of my own. I don't do it in all anger to hit for my own sake to relieve my anger. I do it out of love and just as Piper puts it I would hug him after tell him why I did it and hope he doesn't make that mistake again. I've done time outs. Sit on the couch. Go to your room. Take your toy away or throw it out. Nope, doesn't work. Again it's the context we need to look at. How do you discipline?
The Miserable Man I saw your post before about the Proverbs passage. If you say that that passage is applied to back in those days then I would say sorry you are wrong you have been reading the Word wrong as well. You cannot say that because it's written over 2000 years ago then it does not apply to us. Same with so many things in the Word including Jesus death and resurrection. Also Paul's teachings should not be applied either. They're all written back in those days. If you truly believe that the Word is without error and inspired by Him you should not say such a statement about not applying it to this day and age. Rod can be interpreted to discipline and that's where I stand. Spanking does not mean you have to put anger and force into it and that does not mean its violence either. I've done it gently and tapped before without anger and I have seen and reflected on whether that was out of anger. I've also done it out of anger which I've asked God to forgive me. Again.... You're speaking from a perspective that your mom gave you the experience. I was once like you and told my wife no spanking to our child. Now when the circumstances change for our child and we realize all the types of disciplinary methods do not work, we go to the last resort because they are only toddlers! Do you remember how your mom disciplined you when you were 3 years old? I'm sure you didn't even remember whether you were nice or naughty
Sung Kok Peng you know I tried the whole not spanking thing for a few months and instead used time outs or the removal of a toy. What happened was the behavior did not change and I found myself yelling more and more and very aggressively getting in my kids face which resulted in my 3 year old just being scared & crying longer. The disobedience did not change. I went back to spanking but changed the how/why and after a week or 2 of a daily spank she started to obey this was assuming she had already been told once what was wrong. She hasn’t been spanked in a very long time and obeys almost immediately. Not every misdeed results in a spanking.
@@nparksntx That's probably because they were used to the spanking. I've never spanked my kids and time outs, taking something away and talking to them works wonderful in my house.
@@nparksntx You just suck at talking to them, why lead spanking and hitting as the definitive way of educating your child before questioning your lack of delivery of knowledge and education.
Don't spank and hit kids, for all fellow parents viewing my comment. Fault yourself for lacking parental capabilities, learn how to put yourself in a better position to address the things in your head to them rather than using your physical and totalitarian power to those you know who are vulnerable to it and will forever live in the trauma of your actions. Sickos.
I find it really weird how much he laughed about this. Should we not take the psychological impact of beating a child or beating a sibling of that child into account? All of a sudden when a child is at the age of thirteen, the rule is dissolved? This rule implies that if you're not happy with someone, you beat them. Lord help.
Kaylene your talking about beating. He is not!! A beating is repeated hitting or punishment. One wap. DONE! Then you also missed the cruicial part to what he said afterwards. I love you, don't do that again. Yes the rule is dissolved because the kid doesn't drink milk anymore you freak! There are seasons...each season is different.
Lies. This rule teaches children to hit/beat someone if they're not receiving the desired behaviour from the next person! This is an outdated parenting method and should no longer be taking lightly by parents thinking it'll have no detrimental outcome in the child's life as an adolescent and an adult.
LOL teaches kids to hit...your absolutely right Kaylene! (Serious Face) No seriously, it does. Yet there is a caveat to this though....It does NOT teach them to hit when 1. The discipline of a wap/ spanking is done in a controlled and emotionally stable environment. & 2. The child understands what he or she has done. 3. As I mentioned before which ties into point one is that it must be done in love...not anger...not rage. These steps will 99 times out of 100 prevent your back fire in behavior as you mentioned. I see a lot of retaliation on both sides (child and parent) when the proper steps are not taken. FTR the bible is relevant, not outdated. Thanks and have a nice day :)
I agree with you Kaylene. It does teach the child to hit...to hit their own children. The world is vastly different than the world of Jesus and the apostles, but we can think of no new ways to apply God's word to fit our advances in human psychology? I could almost understand it if a parent did spank in anger. It's the ones who coldly execute "loving" physical violence on a child with tears already streaming down their face, scared and knowing a beating is coming and yet still honestly answered their accusation, that give me pause. There is only one response to this sort of trauma. Continue the cycle by acting out your trauma on your children, and justify it by saying you turned out just fine. You are a big adult performing physical violence on a small human being you claim to love. You are not fine.
@Barbara Freeman I'm sorry your parents did that to you, I truly am, but there is right way and wrong way to do most things in this world. I was spanked as a child and in my case, I did not suffer from anxiety or depression. My parents never spanked me when and if they were upset with me; they spanked me only after they explained to me what I did and why it wasn't right. Some things that a child does will have extreme consequences if they are repeated as an adult, as you may have noticed. Again, I am so sorry that you were abused, like many children, spankings can be poorly given by angry and emotionally unstable parents, but that doesn't make spankings bad; it's just a useful tool being misused. Same way you can use a hammer to kill or build a home. It's all about how it's used. God bless
That's a very good question and interested to hear what the bible says because historians records the indigenous cultures saying *"It was the white man's settlers who hit their children like they were dogs."* Blessings
Meanwhile, we had missionaries at our church who recalled being asked how they get their children to listen to them without beating them all the time. It's cultural and not exclusive to a certain race or religion.
No it doesn't come from this culture. Lots of cultures don't spank small kids and Proverbs doesn't talk about that. It talks about young men, not small children. Read the Hebrew, and also that Jews never taught this. This type of child raising he's advocating literally comes from abusive German and English culture, not God. And his mere opinion doesn't count anymore than anyone else's opinion. Read the research too.
Spanking is abuse. Period. Psychology, therapists, and children's own testimonies all say so. There's a reason it's banned in Japan, Israel, and many countries across Europe and Latin America. If this video spreads more of this abuse, John Piper, you are complicit.
@@raestera we aren't talking about abuse. We are talking about spanking. Beating a child and spanking them are two very different things and if you are going to be disingenuine and straw-man the other side, then there's really no use in us talking is there? Exegete Proverbs 23:13-14 and tell me it doesn't command us to spank our kids.
Also, let's not just quote the one verse that sort of sounds like the Bible is condoning spanking, without actually breaking it way way down. There are more verses on parenting than just proverb 23:13-14. 🤨 Just saying
Growing up my father rarely ever spanked me or my sister only when we did something serious he never spanked me when he was angry tho and he would just tell me to go to my room and wait for him to come in there he would sit down an talk to me and tell me why I got in trouble most often or not I had to do a chore instead again spanking was rarely ever used. I do however remember having to stack wood a lot of the time when I was disrespectful it was my dad's favorite punishment watching me and sis clean the yard or the garage. For some people spanking works for others not so much I was a very strong little child. I don't think a child should be spanked after a certain age I would say 7 years old is the max between 4-7 and really it should be used as a last resort. And before you come at me my father never yelled at me or raise his voice he never cursed at us but he would talk to us in a way that we knew we should respect him. We're living in times where people don't discipline their children properly they let them do whatever they want without consequence and because of this you get kids that turn out to be School shooters or (Karen's) "entitled people who've never been told no in their life by their parents!"
Yeah... this is not okay. This is abuse. But we don’t realize it is. We shouldn’t do to a child what we wouldn’t do to another adult in public. Like if mr. piper feels it would be inappropriate for him to spank his employees when they made a mistake, then he should know its inappropriate to do it to a child.
Abuse and disciplining your children is widely different. I understand that people can go too far, because we are broken and in need of a savior. I spank my children, but I give them many opportunities to get out of it. But if they continue the behavior then they get a brief spanking and then we hug them and explain to them why it happened. We explain that we don’t like doing it but there are consequences to actions. Just my 2 cents
I got spankings to the extreme. By my mother and aunts her sisters. Dad spanked me once in my life it wasn't extreme. He hit me a couple of times on my bare leg. Mom would hit me with leather belts so would my aunts. Yet, as an older teenager, I grew to 6’3” in 10th grade. Mom was only 5’2. So, she wouldn't hit me any longer. They were both Christians and they believed in spanking, although Dad left the physical punishment to my mom.
Whatever you think about whether spanking is abusive or harmful, one thing for sure - Piper is not good at Bible. He claims that "beating with a rod" is required because "not one tittle" will pass away and yet he will then say "well you have to contextualize what 'beat' means and it's not essential of course to use an actual 'rod.'" Shows how impoverished the inerrancy view is.
Spanking never damaged me. They told me why they were spanking me and never bruised me or hurt me bad. Just enough to catch my attention and not want one again. Anything out of anger, in the moment, hurt me. That’s when a parent is not thinking. (Cussing, ignoring, calling names, degrading.. etc). Words are what can hurt the most.
I am glad you enjoy your spankings. And you just lied too the whole world. So you did not cry from the spankings. Then there is anger there. Or mommy and daddy are sick freaks who get off on spanking you. And your non reaction to your spankings.
@@NotlongOfficial : Yes, the rod will teach him the way to go to prison or worse. There are better ways to discipline than a big person standing over a child and hitting them. Pick on someone your own size. Be an example to your children. If they see you doing good behavior, being kind, being considerate, being respectful, then your child will imitate your behavior. If you are a badass, then so will your child. It is about being a good example and being consistent. However, I know there are many parents who do not know how to do this, because they are too lazy to find a better way, so they strike their child. Go to a Good Parenting Class.
@@anonymousjohnson976 picking on someone your own size or anyone's size isn't being a good example to your children lol, if your a Christian you should believe what the Bible says, the rod of correction is Biblical
@@NotlongOfficial : So, you are okay with a big person hitting someone smaller than they are? SMH! Also, I know it's in the bible, that is why I am against it. The bible says to kill your disobedient teenager. Are you going to do that?
@@deathovertreason Deuteronomy 21:18-21 New International Version A Rebellious Son 18 If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” 21 Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.
What Worldview you say? Hmm, How about one that doesn't treat children like animals. How about people who have seen the type of harm corporal punishment does to children. Quoting Hey Hi who used wisdom in that verse. “Spare the rod, spoil the child” actually refers to the Shepard’s rod or crook. Just like how a Shepard’s guides his sheep and cares for them, a father instructs, loves, and instills wisdom and teaching into a child. Spare the wisdom, teaching and instruction and you spoil the child. It doesn’t mean beat you child and hit them. That teaches fear, and teaches them to hit. You wouldn’t hit a adult, because that would land you in jail. You wouldn’t hit a dog or animal, because that would land you in jail. You wouldn’t hit yourself, because that’s self harm and would land you in a mental hospital. Why is a child any different? You can’t possibly correct a child out of love by hitting them and watching them cry out of pain.
We used to get whoopins and the get more if we cried too much, and got harder whoopins if we didn’t cry at all. I understand this isn’t what the Bible teaches, but I have so many issues because of the horrible “father” in my life that I have no intention of spanking my son or daughter. I don’t know how to administer physical punishment because all I had to go off of was literal beatings. It gives me anxiety and nausea just imagining spanking Jr and baby girl. What about my situation?
Talk to your children before spanking them, and make sure you’re not angry. Have in mind a maximum number of swats you intend to give, and stop sooner if your child gives in. Place them over your knee and only hit the buttocks. Do not hit them anywhere else. I see no problem with using a hand, I got hand spanked and also hand spanked my kids. Using a switch is more biblical. Afterwards hug them and tell them you love them.
Talk to your children before spanking them, and make sure you’re not angry. Have in mind a maximum number of swats you intend to give, and stop sooner if your child gives in. Place them over your knee and only hit the buttocks. Do not hit them anywhere else. I see no problem with using a hand, I got hand spanked and also hand spanked my kids. Using a switch is more biblical. Afterwards hug them and tell them you love them.
Spank is good, violence is bad. Humans learn through pain, we are wired like that. You don’t beat the kid, spanking is a bit of pain, no need to leave scars or any kind of mark, but it’s a must to discipline.
Spanking is just your subjectivism, Sir, sorry. Even the proverbs should be understood as a guidance principle more than getting it literally. But spanking doesn't have any biblical base, might be the justification of your acts instead.
For all those who disagree with Ptr. John Piper, remember that Jesus was not only "spanked" for our sins, He bore the punishment that we all deserve and died on the cross for all of us. Again what Ptr. John Piper is saying here is what the Bible says which is counter-intuitive and this actually throws everyone off who does not understand God's grace. Those who do not understand this equate love with sparing the child from the rod and equating the use of the it with anger and hate.
Yup and since Jesus bore our punishment, and we are Christians, we put our trust and hope in Him to deliver us. There’s no need to follow poetry from the Old Testament when we’re living in the New.
Solomon was the one who promoted corporal punishment and look how his brats turned out! Solomon also turned on god and sacrificed children to the idol Molech. Also, the Law has passed becuase Jesus DID fulfill it!
Solomon was the child of David correct? David DID NOT correct Solomon when he should have. Priests didn't correct his sons and God killed all his defendants. Just saying
Hell no, you realize that most adults are actually just adult children that don’t know how to properly manage punishment. Mine always acted out of hate and anger, you may have done it out of compassion, but the truth is, not many parents spank out of compassion. This is quite the narrow minded view
I am sorry that this man either does not know or is dishonest about the translating of those parts of the Bible. The Bible is not as simple as he implies… and he needs to go read “BibleChild.” This is wrong, wrong, wrong, advice. The research is hard evidence, as well as all the thousands of ruined lives. Tragic, tragic, child abuse and ignorance. Oh “god” help us.
My sister and I were both spanked as a children. We both have tremendous relationships with our parents now as adults. I know this is anecdotal, but even children can realize the difference between physical discipline done out of love and physical abuse.
People please read Psalm 23 your shebet they comfort me. Shebet in Hebrews mean rod, staff, scepter. The Shepherd use it as a guidance, direction, teaching and Teaching mean Discipline. The Bible meant if you spare your child from guiding or leading them not hit. Hit is not comforting and use fear and force. God gives us freedom of choice. That will be so contradicting if God's character if God give us freedom to choose but when we choose wrong thing He spanked us?! That would make Him a liar but discipline is teach and teach us from wrong and right and there is consequences on our choices and He lovingly warn us that if we make bad choices we hurt ourselves, others and God.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 King James Version 18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: 19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; 20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. 21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
Most of what the bible says makes some sense to me but I just can't wrap my head around spanking being good for a child's psyche. This makes me very angry, I can't help it.
All the people in comments section complaining about being spanked when they were kids never saw the real reason why they were spanked. They blame their parents, well they are not the ones who misbehaved or did the sin, "YOU DID", They still blame their parents up to this point in their lives and that's just emotional and psychological immaturity. I grew in a third world country so I know what I am talking about disciplining your kid and as for the parents saying they never spanked their kids and grew up as angels, this is only in your perspective as a parent. You are biased and they said their kids grew normal 😂, that right their is contradictory. What? you have an angel of a teenager? your kid is special? get off your high horse. When I go to a social gathering most misbehaved kids are the ones that never got spanked. I know because the parents tells us that they don't believe in spanking.
Children should not be hit or slapped. You are just trying to legitimize your bible where it says "spare the rod, spoil the child." Ridiculous. That verse translates to "spare the instruction, and spoil the child." It is about educating the child at home, giving them direction, guidance, and teaching them. A lot of people are ignorant of how to do this, so they hit and strike their child. Think about it, you are much bigger than this little child and you are raising your hand to hit and strike them, while telling them they should not hit others and that you love them. This is confusing for the child. Before even having kids, everyone should take a Good Parenting class to know the correct way to raise a child. Also, if everyone did what the bible said, they would be killing their obedient teenager as well as doing the horrible deeds of the Westboro Church people.
Well Piper, you just lost my respect. Jesus WOULD NOT condone that at all.. If you are willing to go to jail because you believe a child should be abused and potentially molested in this fashion, then you are one sick, twisted person.
if he's willing to go to jail for that, at least he's coming by it honestly. Unlike most abusive stuff, where you're told "this is for your own good but don't tell anyone". Of course he says that when his kids are all past the age that it's legal(well, in Canada anyway)
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 King James Version 18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: 19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; 20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. 21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
@@Bugsy0333 John.8 [1] Jesus went unto the mount of Olives. [2] And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them. [3] And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, [4] They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. [5] Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? [6] This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. [7] So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. [8] And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. [9] And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
@@Bugsy0333 Jesus came to fulfill the law of Moses with love and grace. He is our example on how we should relate to the world and to the father in this new covenant. Maybe we should study how Jesus related to children as well as how he disciplined his disciples. I think you'll find nowhere that Jesus used or encouraged physical punishment in that discipline much less to his enemies or persecutors.
@@Bugsy0333 so sure, if your operating under the old law and covenant of Moses go ahead and stone your child. But if you've accepted the gift of salvation and relationship with the father of which Jesus died for you should probably not.
@@rebeccafergusson7293 Sorry Rebecca but you wouldn't start reading a book at chapter 6 would you? This is a famous thing that theist love to do discount the old testament. The old testament is the word of God . It promotes slavery murder rape incest and genocide. It is immoral and sickening. If that's the message being sent I want nothing to do with this God.Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved. So if you ignore the least commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God’s laws and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. But I warn you-unless your righteousness is better than the righteousness of the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven!” - MATTHEW 5:17-20
Ok so if my father spanked me and then gave me a hug and said "Don't do it ok, love you" I would love my dad and be jumping off walls too, lol! But if my father told me to stay in the room I wouldn't feel loved
@jtg42n42q iuq3irqn People unfortunately don't think like you do, they care to be influencED and decide thinking by oneself as an action of disobedience to the Bible. If YHWH actually comes up to me on judgement day and tells me spanking itself actually is a righteous act, then I would determine God to be Evil.
God bless this gentle spirit. Although I disagree with him on many topics, a discussion with him would surely never turn into anger. I hope all faiths and practices can look at this man, and see Christ, as I do. If we all were as humble as him we would turn the world on its head. I pray that I can come to a point in my life where God gives me this portion of the Spirit, he gave Mr. piper
Gentle and calm, however, was the way that our father ruined our mental health. Same with Charles Stanley, both Sr. And Jr. They think it’s ok to start spanks at age ONE. ONE? It is slapping the buttocks. I must beg you people to see my work. I am BEGGING YOU to research what happens around this treatment of the buttocks :(. “God” help us.
While I never got spanked as a kid I definitely agree. I feel what I got was much worse which was verbal abuse and it was way more damaging to me.
Both are just faliures of what parents perceive as successful parenting but in reality being just reluctant to understand or put-perspective to even their own child and hold the belt or metal pipe in the name of sweet religion.
@@Anti-FreedomD.P.R.ofSouthKorea a metal pipe? Where are you getting that from?
Yep
I would like to add something respectfully.. I grew up with 2 kinds of worlds- one parent was abusive. They would hit me or slam me on the ground in anger even when it was an accident.. that hurt me deeply. With the other parent, when I did something wrong, they spanked me, but let me define how it was so it’s not misinterpreted: if I messed with an antique i was told not to; they asked me why I disobeyed them, calmly. Then they said you’re going to get 1 spanking- they did, not with furious force, but with a quick, moderate slap to the bottom- not any bruises or marks, and not with anger unleashing it on me- they set me down and told me why I got 1 spanking. They then said I love you, and I would give them hugs: the other parent was unleashing their fury on me. I know the difference between a disciplined, loving swift hit, and a damaging unpredictable beating. I believe a disciplined, spanking is correct- and not slapping in the face or punching! So Christians, please don’t misinterpret these things. Think about them and pray if you are unsure or restless about this...
Thank you very much, Sandrina, you were very helpful. 😊
This was so wrong.What do you think happens to a child when the parent uses abuse as form of punishment.First off it is criminal second you could never drive your child further way from you.So wrong.
@@Bugsy0333 you think all forms of spanking is, has and shall forever be outright the same as violent attacks?
I can even agree that spanking should be avoided, but i will not say it is always child abuse.
@@troywright359 Spanking your child is abuse.Physical and mental.You could not drive a child farther away from you by showing your love to them by slapping them.
@@Bugsy0333 Based on what? Where is your proof that a single smack as ;punishment drives children further away from their parents?
Do you have proof of any cultures that didn't spank children at all in the past? This is a relatively recent thing in the world, so all cultures everwhere all abused children throughout history in your opinion?
If you have lost any respect for pastor Piper as a result of his belief that we should spank our children then you should never have respected him in the first place. He is a Bible teacher. He is simply teaching what the Bible clearly prescribes in Proverbs. What you should say is how you just lost respect for God because He prescribes spanking.
.not my child....and my child has been raised without hitting her...(and she was a handful at times)
Chris Matthews either you love the whole word of God, or you love none of It. can't pick and choose.
can you then explain why so many troubled and misbehaved children have been successfully raised (with a lot of work btw) without once hitting them? Spanking is a lazy mans way of discipline!
I believe that there should be a balance between the two. You don't necessarily need to spank every time but I'm sure that pastor John has gone through the regular way of discipline as we know it "time-out" at one point. And of course if the child is not obedient and have heard and understood you loud and clear, what else do you do? It's not a form of punishment. What happens when we are disobedient to God in every way? Yet He is slow to anger and merciful in every way, yet there are times where you know because of your disobedient, there is consequence for it, not just a "time-out" and let it slide from God.
Spanking has to be done right. Spankings should not be used as the main tool for discipline and used infrequently. I only spanked for two reasons. Lying, and in your face rebellion. I never hit with my hands, I never spanked when angry and I never spanked suddenly. And I didn't yelled with threats to spank. And I didn't spank my children after the age of 7, 8 at the latest. Some children respond well to other forms of discipline. My oldest, I never spanked, my youngest maybe got 3 very light spankings in her whole life. My second and middle children I spanked more but not very much more. If you're spanking a lot your doing something wrong in your parenting in other areas. Again, Spanking should be very infrequent and for very specific reasons that the child clearly understands. When Spanking is applied in love, it should bring your child to repentence. At the end of a Spanking, my children would jump into my arms and hug me tightly and tell me how sorry they were, I, sometimes would weep with them and reaffirm my love for them. Hebrews 12. God disciplines those He loves. While discipline is unpleasant when receiving it, and painful, it brings forth the fruit of righteousness. If you don't need to spank, praise God. Discipline needs to be done with much prayer, love, grace, mercy, wisdom and Godly discernment. There were times my children deserved a Spanking but I gave Grace in some instances and didn't spank. To many throw out the baby with the bath water and feel it's one way or the other. Sometimes God has disciplined His people using very painful methods. Sickness, and even death. Bottom line, raise your children in the fear and instruction of the Lord.
"What do you wish? Shall I come to you with a rod, or with love in a spirit of gentleness?"
I don't think Paul was talking about a literal rod... neither are the proverbs.
The fundamentalists take the whole bible literally.
What you think, is what you think. What the Bible means, is what the Bible says. If you see that Paul uses the word "rod" and you think it's not a rod, then either you don't know what a rod is or you were never rightly spanked.
@@salvationbygracealone5111 : No, the bible is incorrect, has errors, absurdities and atrocities in it, and was written by humans. So, you are saying you use a "rod" on your child? Do the authorities know about that? Also, the bible says to "kill your disobedient teenager". Are you going to do that too?
@@anonymousjohnson976 I don't knlw the hearth with which you ask these questions and make this remarks about the Bible. The way you put it could be that you are frustrated with it but really want to know it, or you are frustrated wuth it and have no will whatsoever to understand it.
And internet makes this no easier fir me, to understand your intention. So I will therefore not accuse you of something I don't know, eventhough your words tells alot.
But I do however encourage you to thing about this: you write a book - how would you like your reader to read it? Trying to read you rightly, or trying to read you falsely?
There is in the New Testament a place where Jesus says: "how do you read?"
So that's something to think about.
All the best to you.
Really ? Deuteronomy 21:18-21
New International Version
A Rebellious Son
18 If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” 21 Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.
The problem is that nowadays parents beat their children heavily with no cause, having completely turned away from Christian grace...
My parents professed to be Christians all their lives. They beat the shit out of me
What would John Piper say to parents who refuse to spank, yet have well-behaved children?
They are lucky!? Not every method works like clockwork with each child. Also I was a kid who never got spanked...I was just an easy going child. You could give me the stink-eye and I would straighten out, like yesterday!
Josh Doohem, they are not lucky they just have normal parents
lucky? nope. If you don't truly want to spank and it hurt you deep inside more than it hurts them. You can find ways that work. If you do want to spank there are also plenty of excuses to use to not change your ways
yep or at the very least not psychopaths in denial
The same children that consume drugs, knowing that being sent to their rooms is not a punishment at all.
My father spanked me during all my Childhood and when I was 15 he slapped me on the face very hard because I accidentally dropped a bible. That changed my life forever not in a good way. Im 41 now and I still struggle with insecurity and low self esteem. I have a 2 years old daughter that wont suffer the same fate.
Spanking is good. Whomever withholds the rod does not love their child and whoever disciplines their child, loves them. Your father probably shouldn't have slapped you because it would've been a good moment to reprove you and to help you.
@@PrinceJes why would he need reproving for an accident!?
@@jeanbannister9354
How about saying, "be careful and watch what you're doing next time"?
@@PrinceJes exactly.....
Yea, that’s just extreme. Sane people don’t spank their children for accidents. It doesn’t mean spanking is wrong.
I was spanked and disciplined as a child. And my parents set boundaries for me. I knew to honor and obey my parents. Thankfully they were not abusive but they expected obedience. As I grew older I had learned what was right behavior, and the spanking stopped, and other forms of discipline began. As I hit my 20s I already knew that I shouldn’t behave in certain manners.. and I think if you look at the youth today, who did not receive the spankings or the disciplines or the set boundaries, you will see that a lot of them are in the streets, rioting destroying other peoples properties, hurting other people and calling it peaceful protesting. I’m not saying all children are out there, I’m just saying the lack of discipline that spoil the child and you will see it in your supermarket always in your department stores and on the streets when they’re throwing fits because they don’t get their way. I guess the proof is in the pudding.
Do you have any advice for a parent on the practical way to do it?
@@thor5446 first I would say never do anything when angry. Give yourself and the child time out . That gives you time to think through what they are doing and what the appropriate discipline would be for it; unless it’s something thing is life threatening to them. I try to think what discipline would have the most influence. Like my nephew love playing Mario. So when I’m watching him and he starts misbehaving, giving time out or a spanking has no effect. But if I tell him one time to stop or he will loose playing Mario for a day or week. Then he changes his behavior . But if he doesn’t I follow through, he doesn’t get ten warnings. I have taught him when I watch him if I say I’m going to do something whether good or bad I always follow through. I also explain what ever discipline I am doing with a child. They need to know if they’re able to comprehend why they’re getting the discipline what they’ve done wrong but on the other side I also want to encourage them when I see right behavior. I think the main thing is they consents you’re doing what you’re doing because you love them and you’re trying to protect them and keep them from their life being messed up some of they’re too young understand so it’s consistent Discipline until they understand if I do this, this happens. It’s hard to give you a complete answer because I don’t know who you are or your life. If you’re working and they have to go to a babysitter, they come under another influences. You can only try to get those who watch him to set the same kind of boundaries that you set and to use the same types and do the same way of discipline and I know that can be hard to find someone to watch them . Nobody’s perfect at this. Should give yourself grace and give a child grace. And pray a lot. Hope this helps.
@@Newcreature1957 yeah that is good advice thank you, i also have some practical questions too, say around the ages of 5 and 8, do you think spankings should be given on the pants or are they less effective that way?
@@thor5446 I would only spank on pants never bare skin. And if it’s not effective would try something else. Like I said find something that they really like that they would miss if they couldn’t have or do. And reinforce good behavior. Children always test their limits. That’s why it so important to be consistent with them.
"Withhold not CORRECTION from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die." Be careful what you take literally in the book of Proverbs.
Just a few verses back in the same chapter: "..PUT A KNIFE TO THY THROAT, if thou be a man given to appetite."
What's the rod that won't kill your child? The "ROD OF CORRECTION" (Prov 22:15). No, this is not some mantra you etch into your paddle. Proverbs is a book of wisdom, so apply some when interpreting these verses. If I really wanted to use the bible to justify "beating" my child, it would be across the "back" with a literal "rod".
DAVID DEARING exactly!!
do they look like they care?
Many "Christians" like to pick and choose which bible teachings they adhere to. Gluttony, for example, is one of those sins most "Christians" conveniently ignore, because many of them are overweight and love food. Not to mention being able to afford to gorge themselves with all that food while so many people, including children in third world countries are starving to death. Which brings me to another point. They will also teach against wealth, yet they themselves live in America and are wealthier than 90% of the entire world
I’ve brought this point up so many times and I’m always treated as though I’m a complete idiot.
It amazes me how people think that in order to discipline a child you either spank them, or put them in time-out. As if time-out is the only alternative to spanking. Educate yourselves.
I was spanked often as a child. Do I believe it was more effective than other discipline techniques? No. Do I spank my own child? No. Because I am educated on more effective ways.
Believe it or not, it is very possible to raise well behaved, respectful kids without hitting them.
Many parents feel that spanking is the only disciplinary tactic in their toolbox. When they feel they have no other alternative but to spank, they act of of desperation. Approximately 85% of parents expressed moderate to high anger and agitation while punishing their children. These findings challenge the notion that parents can spank in a calm, planned manner.
Discipline is an important and necessary part of parenting. However, it is our job to TEACH our children, not to harm them.
Scientific research has found that fear inhibits learning. The child’s prefrontal cortex (the center of reason and judgement) shuts down. Hence, a child’s behavior during and after a spanking is not thoughtful behavior, its reactive. Discipline should make them think, not cower in fear.
Over 80% of parents still spank their children, so poorly behaved children have nothing to do with spanking, since obviously it’s still being done in most households today. Some of the most aggressive kids I know are spanked by their parents.
Choosing not to spank doesn’t mean you let your child walk all over you. That’s called permissive parenting. You simply set clear limits and boundaries and help them understand the consequences when they overstep those boundaries.
Permissive parenting, not being involved in discipline whatsoever and not communicating effectively with your child is what results in poor behavior. Spanking has nothing to do with it.
When spanking is on the table, you will be less creative about problem solving. I urge you to ask yourself, what can I do instead that will accomplish the objective? I promise there are more effective ways if you take the time to research them and apply them.
Thats exactly the problem in my opnion; parents are grown up by the idea that spanking is the only solution. They dont want to invest in a other way to take care of children.. spanking is easy.. So actually they are just lazy.
@@Froukjelovesmakeupx Using violence to solve an issue is what a child does. Therefore, parents that spank or worse beat they're children handle situations immaturely.
Yes exactly!!! Thank you!!!
Well said!
I learned that the one verse which talks about sparing the rod (in proverbs not the Torah/Law) in the original Hebrew refers to a teenage son who is about to go under public discipline. That verse was in no way referring to a toddler or small child.
OMG why do people bend over backwards to defend the Bible ? It just amazes me.
How about this verse and please let me know what you think about it ok?
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
King James Version
18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
King James Version
18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
@@Bugsy0333 that was the old law for Israel, what more do you want? Will you say that the Bible teaches us to sacrifice our kids likr abraham nearly did also?
@@troywright359 Oh please.This is not my first time with this side show. Where in the New Testement does God forbid slavery ? Scripture and verse please ?
@@Bugsy0333 Nowhere, for the selling of ones services as a slave or servant was not considered immoral. Please do not imply that it was used in the same context as modern slavery.
I guess because God doesn't forbid illegal pirating of cooyrighted material, He's ok with that also?
I remember when I got spanked as a child because I lied to my father. I lied to him because I was afraid of his reaction to a simple thing I was not allowed to have. Whatever, I remember this situation very clearly when he spanked me because of that (without talking about it) and it DID NOT make me speak the truth in future situations, it made it even worse because my fear of him got bigger. It hurt the relationship to him and tought me that it is better to hide my secrets before my father -- shouldn't a christian father reflect gods character so I know I can come to him whatever I have done wrong? Discipline can also be executed with consequences that do not include spanking and it would still be biblical!!
If you practised good than you have no reason to lie ,the reason why you lied was because you had done evil ,otherwise there would be no need to fear punishment which resulted in your lies .
The question is why did you think/feel that your father would react in a bad way to your issue? When one lies to get out of a situation or conceal something the damage is two fold.
@Ricky Westley and @Lizica Dumitru thanks for your respond. it is clear to me that evil fears punishment. my point is, that as a child should be encouraged to tell the truth! i lied because i was arfraid to get spanked over a nailpolish i was not allowed to have at that age. do you really belive this is a healthy father-daughter relationship how god wants it to be? i did not lie less after that. it even encouraged me to lie more in some every day situations. there should be a way between parents and children to admit what they´ve done wrong and recive consequences for it (yes!) without violence! of course children still lie sometimes but punishment can be felt in so many other ways very deeply.
+LydiaVlogs *"it is clear to me that evil fears punishment."*...*"I lied to my father. I lied to him because I was afraid of his reaction"*...was his reaction a punishment towards you? If so, your own words might condemn you. Now it should be understood why dad didn't want you to wear said nail polish. He may have had a weird or strict standard that he wished you to uphold. Did he communicate to you why you couldn't have it at that particular age? I can sense why he may not have wanted you to have it.
*"do you really belive this is a healthy father-daughter relationship how god wants it to be?"* As the LORD has communicated with me, I would wish parents to communicate with their children. Also as the LORD has forgiven me, I would wish parents to forgive their children. I don't know if parents are aware that they must teach their children about their own self worth (not self esteem, different). They are worth something to their parents and to the LORD. They have a dignity, a nobility because they (as all humans) are made in the image of GOD and because of that we/they shouldn't cheapen ourselves with anything.
*"i did not lie less after that. it even encouraged me to lie more in some every day situations."* This is the "sight" that is different in individuals. Recall my first sentence I typed...? What kind person do you want to be? One who lies to get out of bad choices/situations that you have made or put yourself into?
Is it not true that if you do what is right, you will be fine? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at the door. It desires to dominate you but you must subdue it - Genesis 4:7. This is a principle in scripture and shows the reality of our person.
*"there should be a way between parents and children to admit what they´ve done wrong and recive consequences for it (yes!) without violence!"* Agreed. The question is, do you believe a quick whap! on the bottom of a 22 month old is an act of violence?
*"of course children still lie sometimes but punishment can be felt in so many other ways very deeply."* You think that same 22 month old understands via verbal communication alone that they cannot go up to a 18 month old and just snatch something from their hands, which will make them cry; or push them over just because the 18 month old snatched something from their hands? I would love if most did, heck, there maybe even some that do.
Wrong. Proverbs 13:24 Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them.
I don’t agree with how he states this here. “Spare the rod, spoil the child” is not in the Bible. Research it and where it came from.
If spanking children was so effective in his generation, then why are there so many damaged adults today. Children do not “have fat bottoms so that they can be whopped “ hearing that statement makes me feel ill. I don’t think Jesus would be saying that.
The Bible has multiple scriptures about discipline and raising our children. It is multifaceted. Spanking should only be done as very last resort.
John Piper has lost all of my respect in this post. Especially how he answered it, joking and laughing about spanking children. How he flipped this back on to the original person asking the question as if something were wrong with them. I have no respect for this man after this video.
Spanking should never be done.
The Bible actually says if you spare the rod you hate your son. (Prov 13:24)
“Spare the rod, spoil the child” actually refers to the Shepard’s rod or crook. Just like how a Shepard’s guides his sheep and cares for them, a father instructs, loves, and instills wisdom and teaching into a child. Spare the wisdom, teaching and instruction and you spoil the child. It doesn’t mean beat you child and hit them. That teaches fear, and teaches them to hit. You wouldn’t hit a adult, because that would land you in jail. You wouldn’t hit a dog or animal, because that would land you in jail. You wouldn’t hit yourself, because that’s self harm and would land you in a mental hospital. Why is a child any different? You can’t possibly correct a child out of love by hitting them and watching them cry out of pain. There’s literally no way. Ladies, if your husband wants to hit your kid, RUN. RUN.
Glad another sane person is around. I cant believe how they discuss openly how they want to be allowed to beat and traumatize their children. This is child abuse, and they are totally ok with it.. Its sick. But i guess they would not like if i came with a rod and beat them... The whole thing has really weird undertones... Thanks for your comment
hari hara of course. I hate spanking and never will do it to my children. I can’t believe it’s not been outlawed. It causes a lot of trauma.
I struggle with this a lot. I grew up with spanking and think that when the kids are little, like 4 or under it’s perhaps one of the only ways that is immediate and makes sense.
Having said that we don’t do it as it’s against the law here in Australia and my wife is a non Christian so doesn’t like what the Bible says at the best of times.
I see how hard it is to get out kids to take our instructions serious and the overall decline in respect for adults by kid here and I think it should be allowed.
Not abuse, not beating, just a short sharp smack.
@@bradhouston4734 did you even read what I said??
@@lpe3259 hi, yes I did. To my knowledge the shepherd’s of the day had a crook for gently grabbing and guiding, or more forceful yanking away from thorns etc and a rod for whacking things and defending the sheep. So they would use the rod to scare and beat animals like wolves
How can Jesus allow you to abuse your child? Love your child, don’t hit her. A real Cristian never hit anyone.
Psalms 23. Thy rod and thy staff comfort me. The rod was used for defense of the sheep, the staff to guide the sheep. The bible says that if you hate your children you spare the rod. But to not spare the rod is to love your children. Just as a loving parent chastises their children with the rod of correction, our heavenly Father also chastises us, for the bible says God chastises those who he loves. You can disagree or argue, but its not me you are fighting against but God and His Word. And if you don't believe God and His Word, you don't have anything to say to me or any other real Christians. Take the foolishness elsewhere
To guide! Not to beat!
You are nuts.
It's not talking about hitting your children though is it? It's talking about guiding them on the right path
@@weirdflex8158 Exactly. The rod is a metaphor for being a guard against people who are trying to push sin on a child, and those people are the sheep. When it says if you spare the rod, then you hate your child, what it's saying is if you don't protect your child from sin, then you hate your child.
NO! I don't think Jesus would spank a child! Inflicting PAIN on a child is WRONG! In the time scripture was written, and even still today, shepherds used various tools to guide their sheep. They use a staff, or a crook, and a rod. The crook is the curved stick you see in cartoon depictions of shepherds. When sheep fall into a pit or lose sight of their flock, they look down. The curved end of the crook is used to pull the sheep’s head back up and guide it in the way it should go. In the same way, the rod is used to guide sheep who begin to splinter away from the flock back together. It can also be used defensively to keep the sheep safe from predators.
This Proverb, as with many proverbs and teachings of Jesus, teaches using a parable. It does not intend for children to be physically punished as the only means of correction. It refers to teaching them through guidance and appropriate discipline. Discipline is about positively influencing behavior in children, not about punishing them. Discipline allows children to develop self-discipline, and helps them become emotionally and socially mature, secure adults. Effective discipline is that which is self-enhancing for the child. Leading children to self-discipline is congruent with Proverbs 22:6, which says, “Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it.”
If I raise my voice, my child is obedient. That’s enough spanking for me. To physically hit a child is beyond me. It’s cowardly. It’s weak. It’s a bad example. In my humble opinion. Maybe because my dad used to beat the crap out of us. We became agressive, violent, hurt and dishonest. Now again, Discipline is important, Jesus rules with a rod of iron. But he doesn’t beat kids with the rod of iron, offcourse. Biblical litteralism reminds me of Paul saying: the letter kills, but the spirit gives life. No spanking in my house. But discipline.
Abuse and discipline 2 different things. Totally different. Discipline is not done in anger. You just deliver the punishment. Thats all.
God punished people in the old testament. He told them what he wanted out of them but they disobey.
Well said
Abuse and spanking are not equivalent. Nice strawman though.
@@Brandon.Germany yes they are. Sound denial though. Succesfully indoctrinated. Ow yes... spanking.
Terrible take. Spanking is not abuse anymore than saying stop that is verbal abuse. Be happy that your child's behavior changes with verbal rebuke. Many children have stronger personalities and require progressively increasing the severity of the punishment. That may ultimately involve spanking.
When he asked his son Barnabas (3 to 4 year old child) if the child made that crayon mark on the wall, and the child lied, then there was a moral law violated and I agree the child needs to be disciplined. But there was no moral law violated when the child wrote on the wall. None. In fact, the child was honest to admit. I don't think the child was even vandalizing. Children around this age explore quite innocently. He most likely got fascinated with the crayon and its color and what it can do. So why spank or discipline when there was no moral issue involved and the child was just exploring ? What if the child wrote "I love you dad" on the wall, would Pastor Piper have spanked ? The moral law kicks in around 6 years old, not at 3 or 4. We know this because children tend to report to the adult every injustice they see in school at around 6. They tattle-tale. But the idea is never to tell on their classmates but to confirm with the 'hero adult' if what they understood as wrong is really wrong. Around that time, the moral law awakens.
Yes he would have spanked him if he wrote i love daddy on the wall. He was told not to draw on the wall period. Regardless if the truth was told or not does not matter he is getting punished for the act. The law of the household is not to draw on the wall. So what your saying is as long as you tell the truth and didnt break a moral law you should get punished? the law of the land is to wear a seat belt, if you get pulled over, put ur seatbelt on real quick and the police officer asks did you put ur seat belt on after i turned on my lights and you say yes, that doesnt mean oh okay u told the truth so i wont give you a ticket. No you knew the law and you broke it, you get your punishment. He is teaching him how the world works. As a follower of Christ we listen to authority. We discipline in Love. The child was disobedient and was punished. I can bet 1000 dollars he will grow up to be a Godly law abiding citizen. Why? Because of the way he was raised in Godly love and Godly discipline.
"So why spank or discipline when there was no moral issue involved and the child was just exploring ?" far too many people value the wall higher than a child.
something soulless is more precious to them than a child. I wonder how many people who can't conceive would even dream of spanking a child if they could adopt one? I don't believe too many. But people who can easily conceive don't really value their child higher than a property. In fact they treat them as property too. Sick
The moral law is that he broke the rules of the house that they establish. From there u are teaching kids there are rules n regulations need to obey in life.
Community society law. School rules....respect authority....its a life long learning. Just look at the damage this generation have. He knows it is wrong but he do it anyway....thats ignorant. Also punishment come when u break the rules or law. Its biblical.
Honor your father and mother is the moral law. Children obey your parents, etc. Their house their rules.
If you don't spank and you have open dialog with your kids, you're more likely to hear "I did it, I'm sorry". My newly 3 year old says that a lot. Most of the time she was exploring and experimenting and didn't realize whatever she did was harmful.
Just finished "Becoming Dallas Willard: The Formation of a Philosopher, Teacher, and Christ Follower" which details a tearful apology Dallas had later in his life to his son on this issue.
Everything in life is a balance. It’s ok to discipline but you shouldn’t spank a child for every mistake or spank them for everything they do, that you feel it’s a rebellion or else you would spend there life spanking them. It takes quality parenting, spending time with your children, explaining them what’s the good the bad and the pros and cons in life, having a relationship as a parent not trying to be there buddy.Consistency and parents in agreement is key! I have 4 children and all of them are different.
Spanking is degrading, cruel, abusive, domestic violence, discriminatory, bigotry, unfair, irresponsible and doing unto other's what's hateful when done unto you, there is ZERO instances it's permissible and to ZERO extent.
All punishment is one or more of the above and doesn't "guide" at all but "coerces" and there's a stark difference between the two, it's super messed up to just single out one person in the household and give them special (mis)treatment and rules which all else are exempt from, hypocrisy and bigotry.
It conditions an external morality compass too, a might makes right ideology and exposes a developing brain to hazardous dangerous chemicals.
John Piper leads many astray with his endorsement of abuse by his misuse of scripture. It is sad.
Completely agree.
He probably spanked his children and just wants to feel better about it. Jesus said, “let the children come to me” when the adults were telling them not to “bother” Jesus. Children can’t defend themselves. You’re just being abusive at that point. You wouldn’t hit your friend for doing something dumb, no. You’d talk to them about it. It’s so sad how disconnected people are from their inner self and how so many people hide behind their religion to excuse abusive behavior.
I got spanked i got no problem
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. (Hebrews 12:6-8)
Johann wilder rod in the Bible means discipline and discipline means Teach. So I believe the Bible translation Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline the....and in some other translation directly said if you spare your child from discipline.
Look at Psalm 23 your staff/ rod they comfort me. When a child is discipline, lead, guide, teach, boundaries set they feel comforted and safe. Not to be disrespectful but we shouldn't hold any preacher or pastors view to heart but we got to study the Bible for ourselves and also the Bible written in Hebrew culture so we got to understand the culture what is rod and staff. It is used for shepherd to guide their sheep back but not to hit them back. In the Bible God said he carried the lost sheep and lamb on His shoulder. That's how gentle, loving and patient He is. He didn't hit the lost Lamb and sheep to come back, He carried them on His shoulder home.
Johann Wilder Don't listen to a speaker, study the Bible for yourself and hear from the Holy Spirit. I BELIEVE AND KNOW JESUS WOULD NOT SPANK A CHILD!!! He said to let all the little children come to me. He is not a hypocrite then it will show Jesus is a liar. Please study the meaning of rod in the Bible, shepherd used it to guide. Read Psalm 23. Your rod = staff they comfort me!!! Not put fear!!!
+Song of Songs the jews have had the old testment alot longer than we have... could u fond me some jews text to support this, cuase im sure they will agree more with the speaker than with you... i agree with you that yes we should read the bible for ourselves amd study.. i found a great deal of earthly doctrine of men to be false when i started reading for my self... and i can tell you that until the 60s with these moderen parenting tech did you ever hear of a softer gentle bible doesnt mean that doctrine.... taken in context, what you read is accurate... again fond a jew that will agree with you on this
Its interesting that he answered what would Jesus Do. We all know that Jesus loved the most vulnerable, those who were shunned by the others. The Lord I know and serve says Love is patient love is kind. Also quoting "treat others the way youd like to be treated". This spanking in nothing but means of control. And as evident some people do use religion as their justification. What would happen when these children grow up and know that you treated them so because of a bible scripture. Would they follow the biblical verses word by word? I highly doubt it. Buble also says didcipline your children in a way not to anger them. Bible also says 'give instructions kindly'.
Seems to me that 'spare the rod' scripture is being twisted by some controlling people.
This is teaching your child to fear you. This doesn’t help them process their feelings
Wrong you dont damage them!
@@DazmonW Wrong you do..Let me show you if you wish.
There are so very many people who use the word "spanking" to describe the practice of hitting over and over with belts, shoes, electric cords, wooden boards, mop or broom sticks, bamboo sticks, etc. The good pastor needs to be clear that he either is or is not condoning "spanking" with these kinds of objects.
Then he can be asked where in the Bible Jesus condones hitting people with these objects as means of correcting them. (Note: the answer is nowhere. )
There are effective, nonviolent ways to discipline children. I know from experience that they work. I have order and obedience in my home. And I have it with the help of the good Lord, without resorting to sick, abusive, cruel, pain-causing, trust-breaking techniques.
What about "the rod"?
@Read Your Bible where does the bible say on the buttocks? You are lying there.
You're a troll, working against the Word
Does God not bring pain to those he loves? If he does, why does he do it? Is he cruel for subjecting his children to pain? He placed his people "in the hands of the Philistines for 40 years" in Judges 13 because of how they wrongfully viewed him. Was God "sick" here because he placed his people in a state of oppression because they did not love and respect him appropriately?
You'll find the repeated theme constantly that God places his people in painful danger in order to save them from a greater danger: a heart not drawn to him. God uses temporary, maybe even life-threatening, pain and loss to show us his value and win our hearts over to him. Like Piper said, it does seem there is a disconnect when people scoff at physical discipline (something very much well-accepted and practiced in our justice system in America, but with punitive purposes added) in the context of parenting, but glaze over the fact that God partakes in the very same thing, saying it actually evidences his love.
So few don’t realize that even the slapping hand on bare behind is WORST of all for many individuals. It can cause sexual consequences. Yes.
All punishment is "pain causing" it's the intent to cause pain either emotional, physical or both in order to deliver retributive satisfaction in the one dishing it out and flex their ego/power but is advertised as being for the other person who's experiencing the distress in order to not look so petty/bad and also maybe even get congratulations from other's as misled as they are.
I'd also say a great deal of punishments parent's give are all those other things you name too "sick, abusive, cruel and trust breaking" many non-physical punishments are all of those and all of them are breaking the moral golden rule condoned and urged as important by Jesus plus many other revered figures throughout history "Do not do unto other's what's hateful when done unto you." conditions an external morality compass (which is the leading cause of selfishness in the world) a might makes right ideology (which is where it and war come from) and exposes the most important organ by far to hazardous chemicals at the worst possible time too, when it's still developing and that is extremely destructive.
I find this very dangerous. So many parents use this as an excuse to be physically abusive. There are so many better ways to discipline your child, and spanking shouldn't be one of them
@Mrs White I know plenty of kids/adults who hate their parents because they were spanked, as well as being very badly behaved.
I also know plenty of parents who never spanked their children, and their children are really well-behaved.
What's important is that your children grow up in a Christ-oriented household. And *you* as a parent should reflect the love of Christ. Also, hell is no danger when you are saved, and having self-control doesn't save you.
@Mrs White Read Romans 10:9 and Matthew 23:26
Good fruit is the product of faith (not discipline)
@Mrs White You want your children to tell the truth, but you don't put them in an environment where they can tell you the truth at all times, and not lie to you to save they're asses. Not telling you is not too different from lying either. So they won't tell you a lot of things that they should.
Discipline is often mistaken for dictatorship.
I bet you find a lot of things dangerous.
There are so many instructions/commandments in the old testament. For example:
Leviticus 24=
19 If a man injures his neighbor (fellow citizen), whatever he has done shall be done to him:
20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; just as he has injured a man, so shall the same be done to him.
21 The one who kills an animal shall replace it; but he who kills a human being [unlawfully] shall be put to death.
22 You shall have one standard of law for the stranger among you as well as for the native, for I am the Lord your God.’
Will any pastor recommend that Jesus would follow that?
Old testament instructions are what they are, old. Old testament's "an eye for an eye" has been replaced by a completely opposite instruction in the new testament, "love your enemies".
Pastor John Piper is not God. Even he can make wrong interpretations.
I'm 31 years old, and I am still scarred from being spanked as a child. If God commands us to hit our children, on an erogenous zone, when they are the most dependent on us and the most vulnerable, then God is evil. I only say this because that is how confident I am that He does not command that of us. I would literally rather go to hell than spank a child. I'm saying this as a guy who was raised with the teachings of fire and brimstone preachers. After what I experienced, and knowing what I know now, inflicting such a painful, and humiliating punishment on a defenseless child who doesn't know any better would be *worse* than hell.
God is not evil he moves us he just wants us to raise our children right so we sin. Less and can repent for our sins and join him in heaven he doesn’t support child abuse he doesn’t say I command you to beat your children or you are damned to an eternity in the lake of fire and sulphur no he doesn’t say that he gave us free will and we do what we do with it
Clearly you don’t know what hell is an what happens there
Then you don’t trust God with all things.
He literally commands us to spank children. Your opinion does not nullify Gods commands.
@@Brandon.Germany example of a Bible verse where it says to smack a child on their bottom please.
“Do not withhold correction from a child, For if you BEAT him with a rod, he will not die. You shall BEAT him with a rod, And deliver his soul from hell.” (Proverbs 23:13-14 NKJV)
End of discussion. You either follow your own feelings on this issue or you follow the scriptures given by God himself through the prophets. Read the text. It says what it says. You can interpret away "rod" any way you want--like everyone is doing in these comments. But you can't interpret away "beat". We have a little problem there.
So, you should BEAT them, and use a ROD. If you use a belt, or a switch, or a spoon you are sinning. HaHaHaHa.
@@brianprentiss Although I do agree with beating a child if they have done wrong. I don't think the bible literally means you must hit them with a rod. Like a few spanks with your hands or a shoe wouldn't be to bad, not to much hits though
@@ladyd3404 yeah well, I think that's interpreting the verse to suit your preference. Inside of one verse you interpret one part literally - the corporate punishment, and another part metaphorically - the rod.
I think it's more metaphorical for the fact that we should not be lenient with our children but should discipline them
You need to look at the context of that verse
Rod does not mean spank or beat or hurt or strike smh...stop promoting child abuse! If you have to use violence to teach your child you have anger problems and need to learn how to grow up and control yourselves and your feelings. I have NEVER had to spank my child at all and my child is extremely well behaved, well manners and does excellently in school and follows my every rule. If you need help ask for help....don't hurt your child because you don't know how to parent. Violence teaches violence. Physical is abuse.
You are right! An adult should never beat mistreat a child! Children they are small and defenseless they can be scared and sad and feel unloved. Poor little child and it hurts on their body when an adult beat them! That’s horrible 😢 Horrible people who hurts children!🤬
no HE would not
the bible also says fathers do not provoke your children to wrath.
So you are just gonna delete those verses that speaks about spanking?
anthony snow Actually,that is not what this Bible verse means.First of all,the full verse is,"Fathers,do not provoke your children to anger,but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the LORD."[Heb.6:4] Most fathers in Paul's day ruled their families with domineering and rigid authority.The desire and welfare were seldom considered of the wife and children.A Christian father's authority over his children were not to be unreasonable demands that would result in anger,despair and resentment.'Discipline and instruction of the LORD' calls for systematic discipline and instruction ,which brings children to respect authority and commands of the LORD as the foundation of all life,godliness and blessing.
anthony snow such a difference between provoking to anger (in antagonism etc) and discipline. Is Jesus God? you say no? then you're not Christian. You say yes then "before Abraham, I am" which means Jesus destroyed Soddom, flooded the world, read revelation he says he is coming with wrath and punishment. Oh yes...he would strike a child, he strikes all of us to discipline us.
This is so wrong, the bible does not say to spank your child, it says do not withhold discipline from your child. Spare the rod saying comes from a 1700 poem about lovers. The bible teach to instruct your children in discipline and accountability, it never once says beat them. I think this is a cycle of abuse, people who were physically abused as a child think it's acceptable to pay it forward to the children under their care. I This k we need to be very careful because alot of parents and even educational institutions are taking this line of thinking and extrapolating it to the point where they are constructing devices like boared paddles and handled leather straps in order to cause maximum pain with minimal trauma. It's disgusting, it's child abuse, and saying Jesus would of taken part in it is heresy.
You are so wrong. WTF. If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city. And they shall say to the elders of his city, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.” Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear. (Deuteronomy 21:18-21
@@Bugsy0333 yeah, Deuteronomy 21 18 to 22 is an atheist favourite, hahaha, they think its some kind of steak to the heart of a christian, They kind of like to misuse it because it says "son" that it means a child. Lol. But the fact is, none of them have actually read the bible for any context, they just repeat what they hear other atheists say, and often ignore the answer they're given, and just move on to the next Christian to try and convert them to the atheist religion. It's talking about a grown man who is a degenerate and does no good for his family or community, a drunkard and a glutton, who doest heed other people. How many children do you know who are drunkards? OT law seems harsh at times when compared to the snow flake culture of todays blue haired secular cry babies, but it wasn't UNJUST ever! We as Christians don't follow old testament law. That part of Gods covenant was finished when Jesus died on the cross. There's a new covenant now and it's the 10 and 2 commandments. You could if you were so inclined, look up videos of Christian scholars explaining these things. I know you won't, though. because let's face it, you're atheist, you didnt exactly get where you are by studying or using your brain. Hahahaha.
@@steakslapn9724 Sorry excuse for a human being
@@Bugsy0333 hahaha you really are, but if you stop being so misinformed and stop parroting other atheists, you will bounce back no problem. You can be mad at me, I really don't care. The world hates Christians because they hate God. But if all you have is insults, then I guess that means I won the debate, that was easy I only had to challenge your assertion and you crumpled like a house of cards. Atheist really suck at debate so don't feel bad, 99% are just like you, all they have is insults and ad hominem because they don't actually study the source material in order to form an argument. You should check out biola university, they teach apologetics, and there's one professor who specialises opposed apologetics, so he uses actually challenging versus and stuff to push his students to study harder. He will debate his Christian students from the point of view of an atheist, a Muslim, a Catholic, a jew, you name it. You could learn some new arguements that will actually stand a chance at challenging young unlearned Christians. And itll result in better debates. A good tip too, not all Christians are soft spoken as you can see, so being polite even while debating will get you more pleasant conversations.
@@steakslapn9724 You are the prime example of how Relgion can fuck with a persons mind and steal away ther moral values.
Great story but zero fucking evidence. Nothing new here same shit different day.
We dont follow the old testament you say how fucking convenient is that.You are a joke.
My mother was the one who abused me physically, mentally, emotionally and verbally. I have PTSD to this day I'm 63. She slapped me in the face at age 26 and all the way up to age 26 as well as age 36. It was humiliating and degrading to be treated like that as an adult. I have had chronic depression and anxiety and severe health problems for the last 35 years. The majority of the health problems can be traced back to trauma and abuse. She would hit me with a belt up to 15 or 20 lashes at a time. I could look at her wrong and I would be drugged down to her bedroom and she'd lock the door so nobody could protect me and she would beat me senseless. She denies it to this day. She has got everybody on her side every single person that's related to me believing her over me. I still have visions of being beaten with a belt all the time. My daddy was just as harsh with a belt as she was. She would be me for talking back to her in a way she didn't like, she would be me for any infractions she could figure out. My two sisters never got hit once. And they did just as bad of stuff including blaming me for everything they did wrong and that I got beat for. To this day she treats both my brothers and sisters as her angels and never calls me to wish me happy birthday as she does the other four and never includes me or my family in the Thanksgiving dinner with the whole family and so much more. I've been treated like a black sheep and outcast of the family. I never did drugs and I never smoked and I never drink any type of alcohol or wine. I did not Go to bars or nightclubs. I did not sneak out of the house. I was actually a really good kid but was raised by a monster who to this day has tricked everybody to thinking she is such an angel and did nothing but be a good parent to me. I have nothing but nightmares of everything she did to me and everything she said my whole life growing up till I was age 60 and finally cut her off. I never had to ever raise a hand to either of my children nor did my husband. We raised them with no spanking whatsoever and they are excellent kids and adults now. They were honor students, they have college degrees, good jobs and are very good people who have never been in trouble with the law or even gone to a nightclub or bar. You do not have to lift your hand and hurt somebody else physically to make them behave. We raised them with a lot of love time attention and affection and that's all they needed to want to behave correctly.
Proverbs 23:13-14 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you beat him with a rod, he will not die. [14] If you beat him with the rod you will save his life from Sheol.
then what is the use of the blood of christ. If he really exists? You could beat people and make everything heavenly. There would be no wars no nothing. But we have them. So that proves the beatings are nothing but idiots loving to get revenge
Why haven't gave a answer I am curious also?
@@mysteryguy793 He exists alright. I honestly have no idea what is in store for humanity. Just hope for the creator not to be so harsh and have mercy on us. The people who actually deserve mercy not murderers, rapists, and pedos.
You are out of your mind if you presuppose Christ would have used physical abuse on a child. The book of Proverbs is NOT the word of Jesus. Get lost Matthews.
My friends piper is completely right on this issue. If you love your child you must discipline him out of love.
Amen, the only sensible comment on this video thus far...
Although I don't know if every child should be spanked, I think it depends on the individual child and the parent... I do know for sure that children need discipline.
There are other ways to discipline besides hitting and striking a child.
Paisleyyama: Why not use "It"
But the word discipline means to teach. And by spanking you are teaching this:
You use violence to solve problems
You lack self control
You cannot come up with a better way to teach them other than to hit them.
Paisleyyama: Are you saying god is a human? How do you know? I thought the belief was that god was a spirit, but then explain intelligently "spirit" or "spiritual". If god is invisible, how would one know what this being would even look like? It's impossible.
I think the key to any discipline is to never discipline while angry. Whether spanking or yelling or whatever it is. Anger leaves a searing mark.
People nowadays don't know the difference between a beating and a spanking.
Spanking: Applying a stinging slap to a sturdy part of the body in a calm, controlled setting to impart discipline and impress a lesson.
Beating: An overgrown child taking out his/her anger on an actual child.
Spanking is healthy, beating is abuse.
According to what? Not the Bible. The Bible doesn't talk about applying slap to a certain area of the body.
"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." (Romans 10:4)
Christ, so almighty who even contradicts the Bible itself.
@@Anti-FreedomD.P.R.ofSouthKorea who?
@Diana Lynn
Lord Jesus will not raise your kids. It's your job and is what you can do. He will save and sanctify them, and that is what you can't do.
I guess then I will also not go work anymore, since I believe in Jesus and He fulfilled the Law.
Get first your terms right.
So we can murder now?
So what is the rod? Because according to the original text “rod” in that verse refers to the rod of the Sheppard leading his flock.
The same word is used all throughout the Bible to describe branches (like a rod of a green poplar Gen 30:37) or sticks. It’s not a specific kind. Basically a rod is what we would call a switch. And the Bible says you beat them with it (Prov 23:14), which in our modern vernacular sounds bad, but it basically means to hit them with it repeatedly.
So the Bible also literally tells you how to use it. You can try to explain it away because it’s not comfortable for you, but it is what it is. God is pro-spanking and he’s smarter than you or I. God also says if you don’t spank, you hate your kids (Prov 13:24)
The scribes were reading the Bible and were stuck in laws and rules.
Using a verse in the Bible that says to discipline your child with a rod could mean to use the rod of truth ,to teach it by talking to it about the heaviness of it's behaviour and to use consequences to correct it .When researches show that these are effective nonviolent and not dangerous methods to correct a child why take the risk to hurt it?
God wants people to be wise not just follow commands and laws like being blind.
John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Many Christian people think that sticking to commands and laws is the answer but God wants them to understand deeply His Spirit.
How about staying in prayer to let be informed by Jesus how to behave to children?
How about reading the Word with an open mind and let God fill us up with His wisdom?
I don't mean to judge you I just hate behaviours of Dominion and humiliation towards children.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
King James Version
18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
I honestly don't know how I feel about spanking. It's in the Bible and I've heard other good Christians swear by it, but my childhood was terrible partially because of the way my parents spanked me. They didn't spank too hard or anything and it never left a mark, but it hurt so bad emotionally. They would always be angry when they did it and I never got a hug or an "I love you" or an "I really wish I didn't have to do this" afterwards because I honestly think they enjoyed it. They would spank me for the tiniest of misdeeds or even when they thought I was being sassy when I honestly wasn't. I remember several instances when I was spanked early in the day and spent the whole rest of the day in my room crying. I never knew what would cause them to spank me so I stayed in my room as much as possible to avoid them finding an excuse to spank me. I developed social anxiety and depression from a very young age and I'm still not completely over it and I'm in my 30's. I have a 3 year old daughter now and I just do timeouts with her and let my husband spank her when necessary because I just can't. I bawled my eyes out the last time he did it.
@paisleyyama Very good advice. Thank you for your response.
Boohoo
I am so sorry you were abused in that way. Hitting in anger is abuse. Them not explaining it to you is also abuse.
You need to stop that.
Same man 😭 I'm a Christian but I'm not sure why my blood boils when i watch these kind of videos.
Exactly...a difference between DISCIPLINE and ABUSE
true. Spanking is abuse though. Not discipline.
@@mysteryguy793 THANK YOU!!!
@@mysteryguy793 Such cannot be properly differenciated in the first place when the opportunity of deciding is given to those who are contemplating of committing the action, because sooooo many of them secretly abuse and torture their children to death behind the name of religion and "educational spanking."
👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾
I was punished as I got older by loosing my game boy and Sitting on the bad chair for ten minutes in the days of my teenage years and preteen it worked because I didn’t like to loose that stuff
The rod is a tool to lead sheep. If you do not lead them to the right paths, you do hate them. If you use the rod to hit them, you most certainly hate them, as well. Jesus also said if anyone offends a child, you're to hang a stone around your neck and drown in the sea. Jesus would NOT have spanked his children. Know the book.
You foolish person ,you need to know the book .
Ricky Westley you are wrong
This is shocking. There is so much you don't understand -- like what discipline means.
This guy is off putting. And I really don't think I would take advice from him in any way!
Just as well most parents/guardians now take the actual research on parenting and know that hitting a child doesn't do any good at all.
I can't believe in this day and age we still need to keep repeating this, but, no, you shouldn't smack children.
Gotta love how all these "Christians" who are opposed to physical discipline are using their feelings, rather than Scripture, as the basis of their position. "Ohhh, but it's just wrong! Ohhh, God is loving!" Blah blah blah.
Johann Wilder please read Psalm 23 your shebet they comfort me. Shebet in Hebrews mean rod, staff, scepter. The Shepherd use it as a guidance, direction, teaching and Teaching mean Discipline. The Bible meant if you spare your child from guiding or leading them not hit. Hit is not comforting and use fear and force. God gives us freedom of choice. That will be so contradicting in God's character if God give us freedom to choose but when we choose wrong thing He spanked us?! That would make Him a liar but discipline is teach and teach us from wrong and right and there is consequences on our choices and He lovingly warn us that if we make bad choices we hurt ourselves, others and God. I explained more on the comments. We really need to examine every Christian as they speak not to say John piper is false teacher. I don't know but I know he is not perfect so always go back to the source
Johann Wilder rod in the Bible means discipline and discipline means Teach. So I believe the Bible translation Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline the....and in some other translation directly said if you spare your child from discipline.
Look at Psalm 23 your staff/ rod they comfort me. When a child is discipline, lead, guide, teach, boundaries set they feel comforted and safe. Not to be disrespectful but we shouldn't hold any preacher or pastors view to heart but we got to study the Bible for ourselves and also the Bible written in Hebrew culture so we got to understand the culture what is rod and staff. It is used for shepherd to guide their sheep back but not to hit them back. In the Bible God said he carried the lost sheep and lamb on His shoulder. That's how gentle, loving and patient He is. He didn't hit the lost Lamb and sheep to come back, He carried them on His shoulder home.
Johann Wilder Don't listen to a speaker, study the Bible for yourself and hear from the Holy Spirit. I BELIEVE AND KNOW JESUS WOULD NOT SPANK A CHILD!!! He said to let all the little children come to me. He is not a hypocrite then it will show Jesus is a liar. Please study the meaning of rod in the Bible, shepherd used it to guide. Read Psalm 23. Your rod = staff they comfort me!!! Not put fear!!!
+Song of Songs The bible doesn't just say "rod". It says you shall "beat" your child so that you save his soul from hell (Proverbs 23:14). I do read my bible. That's why I can prove you're wrong. You are being guiding by your feelings and by popular culture. Do you know what the bible says about trusting your own feelings on an issue?
why are you even wasting your time trying to reason with people who are mistaking pain for love. They are in denial.
That's not the case back home, where over 12 were still spanked, with rods!!! You talk of three-year-olds, well what about 15-year-olds, or 16-year-olds? I use to hate certain teacher's classes and certain days of the week because of this.
Grow up in Nigeria and you will understand "Mild Pain"
Pastor John Piper's example of spanking his child was not a good example of how spanking should be done.
What Pastor Piper gave to his son was a slap on the bottom.
If you want to know how spanking should be done, read "Therefore Peking University Brothers and Sisters" by Xiao Baiyou.
If his children did not study well enough, did not practice the piano well enough, ate snacks, opened the refrigerator, turned on the AC even during the summer, or broke any of his rules, he would hit them on the palms or the calves with a feather duster.
He says that each strike must be hard and leave a welt and that his children must count each stroke and may not cry during the canings.
If they flinched, miscounted, or cried, they would have to start all over again.
His children are graduates of prestigious universities and all thank him for doing so.
He spanked the money changers out of the temple. Yes of course he woild
The Rod in the Bible was a rod used to guide people not beat lol, you chatting big man.
Rod was never in the Bible used as a beating stick
Jesus would not spank a child.
And your nice little assumption that non-spankers push kids off to a corner or a room to "feel guilty".. Actually, I would have had my child clean the crayon off the wall. It teaches that if you make the mess, you clean it up. Spankin teaches that if you're unhappy with someone, you hit them.
I guess my kids mean more to me than some other people value theirs.
You contradict scripture ,you dont love your children as much as you proclaim
at 3 or 4 years old? Many times, they don't listen to you, telling them not to color the walls. So what do you do? If they can't even listen to your voice to not draw on the wall, how do you expect them to clean the walls after they have colored it? They're too young to understood. Every child is different. But from my personal experience, there's a choice you make but having to spank is not punishment. There's a difference between punishment and discipline and from pastor John's response, it's in the camp of DISCIPLINE because he does go off telling him he loves Barnabas
The Miserable Man and just clean the mess up yourself? You could do that up until they are 18 I guess? I'm not saying spanking is wrong or right. Kids are legitimately rebellious and if they keep on rebelling, what do you do? And there is a difference between hit and spank. I have known good families who are very God fearing and want everything well with their children. They first said no spanking but now its a no no then their child reaches a Very rebellious stage. You can't keep doing time out. You time them out. They wreck havoc in their room. Then what is next? They still go on a rebellious rampage after you say IT'S OK and after you clean up their mess they goto the kitchen to break your dishes. Then you say I LOVE You then they do another rebellious thing. The list goes on. Again every child is different. Every parent is different BUT we must not think that spanking is wrong nor the right solution. It's an option that a parent should seek wisdom from God to see if it is what they should do in their capacity and their environment with the character their child have
The Miserable Man depends how you term it. Some people hit for punishment and not caring for consequence. Some people spank for discipline in that you care and love that the kid would understand his consequence. I have a child of my own. I don't do it in all anger to hit for my own sake to relieve my anger. I do it out of love and just as Piper puts it I would hug him after tell him why I did it and hope he doesn't make that mistake again.
I've done time outs. Sit on the couch. Go to your room. Take your toy away or throw it out. Nope, doesn't work. Again it's the context we need to look at.
How do you discipline?
The Miserable Man I saw your post before about the Proverbs passage. If you say that that passage is applied to back in those days then I would say sorry you are wrong you have been reading the Word wrong as well. You cannot say that because it's written over 2000 years ago then it does not apply to us. Same with so many things in the Word including Jesus death and resurrection. Also Paul's teachings should not be applied either. They're all written back in those days. If you truly believe that the Word is without error and inspired by Him you should not say such a statement about not applying it to this day and age. Rod can be interpreted to discipline and that's where I stand. Spanking does not mean you have to put anger and force into it and that does not mean its violence either. I've done it gently and tapped before without anger and I have seen and reflected on whether that was out of anger. I've also done it out of anger which I've asked God to forgive me. Again.... You're speaking from a perspective that your mom gave you the experience. I was once like you and told my wife no spanking to our child. Now when the circumstances change for our child and we realize all the types of disciplinary methods do not work, we go to the last resort because they are only toddlers! Do you remember how your mom disciplined you when you were 3 years old? I'm sure you didn't even remember whether you were nice or naughty
So may I know, for those who don't spank. How do you discipline?
Sung Kok Peng you know I tried the whole not spanking thing for a few months and instead used time outs or the removal of a toy. What happened was the behavior did not change and I found myself yelling more and more and very aggressively getting in my kids face which resulted in my 3 year old just being scared & crying longer. The disobedience did not change. I went back to spanking but changed the how/why and after a week or 2 of a daily spank she started to obey this was assuming she had already been told once what was wrong. She hasn’t been spanked in a very long time and obeys almost immediately. Not every misdeed results in a spanking.
Crickets. See the thing is, spanking is not a good thing in and of itself. It is a BETTER thing than the alternative... which is why people do it.
@@nparksntx That's probably because they were used to the spanking. I've never spanked my kids and time outs, taking something away and talking to them works wonderful in my house.
@@nparksntx You just suck at talking to them, why lead spanking and hitting as the definitive way of educating your child before questioning your lack of delivery of knowledge and education.
Don't spank and hit kids, for all fellow parents viewing my comment. Fault yourself for lacking parental capabilities, learn how to put yourself in a better position to address the things in your head to them rather than using your physical and totalitarian power to those you know who are vulnerable to it and will forever live in the trauma of your actions.
Sickos.
There is a key difference between a rod and a staff.
Ya whats that ?
@@Bugsy0333 did you figure it out?
If you spank a child you are a abuser 😡😡. Shame on you 🤬
I find it really weird how much he laughed about this. Should we not take the psychological impact of beating a child or beating a sibling of that child into account? All of a sudden when a child is at the age of thirteen, the rule is dissolved? This rule implies that if you're not happy with someone, you beat them. Lord help.
Kaylene your talking about beating. He is not!! A beating is repeated hitting or punishment. One wap. DONE! Then you also missed the cruicial part to what he said afterwards. I love you, don't do that again. Yes the rule is dissolved because the kid doesn't drink milk anymore you freak! There are seasons...each season is different.
Lies. This rule teaches children to hit/beat someone if they're not receiving the desired behaviour from the next person! This is an outdated parenting method and should no longer be taking lightly by parents thinking it'll have no detrimental outcome in the child's life as an adolescent and an adult.
LOL teaches kids to hit...your absolutely right Kaylene! (Serious Face) No seriously, it does. Yet there is a caveat to this though....It does NOT teach them to hit when 1. The discipline of a wap/ spanking is done in a controlled and emotionally stable environment. & 2. The child understands what he or she has done. 3. As I mentioned before which ties into point one is that it must be done in love...not anger...not rage. These steps will 99 times out of 100 prevent your back fire in behavior as you mentioned. I see a lot of retaliation on both sides (child and parent) when the proper steps are not taken. FTR the bible is relevant, not outdated. Thanks and have a nice day :)
I agree with you Kaylene. It does teach the child to hit...to hit their own children. The world is vastly different than the world of Jesus and the apostles, but we can think of no new ways to apply God's word to fit our advances in human psychology? I could almost understand it if a parent did spank in anger. It's the ones who coldly execute "loving" physical violence on a child with tears already streaming down their face, scared and knowing a beating is coming and yet still honestly answered their accusation, that give me pause. There is only one response to this sort of trauma. Continue the cycle by acting out your trauma on your children, and justify it by saying you turned out just fine. You are a big adult performing physical violence on a small human being you claim to love. You are not fine.
@@daisycupprincessEXACTLY 👏🏼
"Children have little fat bottoms so they can be whopped." Anyone else giggle at that?
Totally
It's sickening. Signs of pedophilia if you ask me.
+kaylene Jantjes my thoughts exactly. That man is sick and he has issues that he's ignoring
@Barbara Freeman I'm sorry your parents did that to you, I truly am, but there is right way and wrong way to do most things in this world. I was spanked as a child and in my case, I did not suffer from anxiety or depression. My parents never spanked me when and if they were upset with me; they spanked me only after they explained to me what I did and why it wasn't right. Some things that a child does will have extreme consequences if they are repeated as an adult, as you may have noticed. Again, I am so sorry that you were abused, like many children, spankings can be poorly given by angry and emotionally unstable parents, but that doesn't make spankings bad; it's just a useful tool being misused. Same way you can use a hammer to kill or build a home. It's all about how it's used. God bless
@Barbara Freeman yes but sadly he wont. Because the justice system globally is broken.
That's a very good question and interested to hear what the bible says because historians records the indigenous cultures saying *"It was the white man's settlers who hit their children like they were dogs."* Blessings
Meanwhile, we had missionaries at our church who recalled being asked how they get their children to listen to them without beating them all the time. It's cultural and not exclusive to a certain race or religion.
No it doesn't come from this culture. Lots of cultures don't spank small kids and Proverbs doesn't talk about that. It talks about young men, not small children. Read the Hebrew, and also that Jews never taught this. This type of child raising he's advocating literally comes from abusive German and English culture, not God. And his mere opinion doesn't count anymore than anyone else's opinion. Read the research too.
If you spank, you the parent need to be disciplined lol...self control!
We now all see how much spanking your child has helped him.. since he’s making fun of your faith .
Spanking is abuse. Period. Psychology, therapists, and children's own testimonies all say so. There's a reason it's banned in Japan, Israel, and many countries across Europe and Latin America. If this video spreads more of this abuse, John Piper, you are complicit.
I was spanked. It is not abuse. You are wrong and you are calling God a liar. Repent.
@@Brandon.Germany What a joke
@@raestera Gods commandments are a joke? Have fun explaining that one to him when you face him. Repent of your evil and submit to His authority
@@Brandon.Germany I'll repent of my "evil" that is my opposing physical abuse when hell freezes over.
@@raestera we aren't talking about abuse. We are talking about spanking. Beating a child and spanking them are two very different things and if you are going to be disingenuine and straw-man the other side, then there's really no use in us talking is there?
Exegete Proverbs 23:13-14 and tell me it doesn't command us to spank our kids.
Spare the rod spoil the child is actually from an erotic poem... so the fact that you said it's a paraphrase of God's own word is wrong.
Also, let's not just quote the one verse that sort of sounds like the Bible is condoning spanking, without actually breaking it way way down. There are more verses on parenting than just proverb 23:13-14. 🤨 Just saying
Growing up my father rarely ever spanked me or my sister only when we did something serious he never spanked me when he was angry tho and he would just tell me to go to my room and wait for him to come in there he would sit down an talk to me and tell me why I got in trouble most often or not I had to do a chore instead again spanking was rarely ever used.
I do however remember having to stack wood a lot of the time when I was disrespectful it was my dad's favorite punishment watching me and sis clean the yard or the garage.
For some people spanking works for others not so much I was a very strong little child. I don't think a child should be spanked after a certain age I would say 7 years old is the max between 4-7 and really it should be used as a last resort.
And before you come at me my father never yelled at me or raise his voice he never cursed at us but he would talk to us in a way that we knew we should respect him.
We're living in times where people don't discipline their children properly they let them do whatever they want without consequence and because of this you get kids that turn out to be School shooters or (Karen's)
"entitled people who've never been told no in their life by their parents!"
Yeah... this is not okay. This is abuse. But we don’t realize it is. We shouldn’t do to a child what we wouldn’t do to another adult in public. Like if mr. piper feels it would be inappropriate for him to spank his employees when they made a mistake, then he should know its inappropriate to do it to a child.
Abuse and disciplining your children is widely different. I understand that people can go too far, because we are broken and in need of a savior. I spank my children, but I give them many opportunities to get out of it. But if they continue the behavior then they get a brief spanking and then we hug them and explain to them why it happened. We explain that we don’t like doing it but there are consequences to actions. Just my 2 cents
@@Daily_Walk_ I agree. Spanking is biblical. But, it ought to only be used in the most serious circumstances.
I got spankings to the extreme. By my mother and aunts her sisters. Dad spanked me once in my life it wasn't extreme. He hit me a couple of times on my bare leg. Mom would hit me with leather belts so would my aunts. Yet, as an older teenager, I grew to 6’3” in 10th grade. Mom was only 5’2. So, she wouldn't hit me any longer. They were both Christians and they believed in spanking, although Dad left the physical punishment to my mom.
Whatever you think about whether spanking is abusive or harmful, one thing for sure - Piper is not good at Bible. He claims that "beating with a rod" is required because "not one tittle" will pass away and yet he will then say "well you have to contextualize what 'beat' means and it's not essential of course to use an actual 'rod.'" Shows how impoverished the inerrancy view is.
Spanking never damaged me. They told me why they were spanking me and never bruised me or hurt me bad. Just enough to catch my attention and not want one again.
Anything out of anger, in the moment, hurt me. That’s when a parent is not thinking. (Cussing, ignoring, calling names, degrading.. etc).
Words are what can hurt the most.
@@OneDay38104 what about when Jesus tells us to not spare the rod?
@@OneDay38104 other examples are also present in the Old Testament?
I am glad you enjoy your spankings.
And you just lied too the whole world.
So you did not cry from the spankings.
Then there is anger there.
Or mommy and daddy are sick freaks who get off on spanking you.
And your non reaction to your spankings.
Jesus would never spank a child and neither should we. Love and a peaceful home makes children secure
Chapter and verse?
Jesus drove ppl out of the temple when they were doing selling stuff
You think that means you are supposed to hit and strike your little child?
@@anonymousjohnson976 yes, the rod of correction makes him in the way he should go
@@NotlongOfficial : Yes, the rod will teach him the way to go to prison or worse. There are better ways to discipline than a big person standing over a child and hitting them. Pick on someone your own size. Be an example to your children. If they see you doing good behavior, being kind, being considerate, being respectful, then your child will imitate your behavior. If you are a badass, then so will your child. It is about being a good example and being consistent. However, I know there are many parents who do not know how to do this, because they are too lazy to find a better way, so they strike their child. Go to a Good Parenting Class.
@@anonymousjohnson976 picking on someone your own size or anyone's size isn't being a good example to your children lol, if your a Christian you should believe what the Bible says, the rod of correction is Biblical
@@NotlongOfficial : So, you are okay with a big person hitting someone smaller than they are? SMH! Also, I know it's in the bible, that is why I am against it. The bible says to kill your disobedient teenager. Are you going to do that?
Shepherds used rods to move sheep and not beat the sheep. Spanking is abuse.
“i will go to jail over that issue” HUH do i understand what he’s saying correctly
jtg42n42q iuq3irqn I’m trying to loose weight but criminalizing obesity is a bad idea people will most likely protest and all sorts of stuff
God never told u that u just misinterpreted the bible u not fit to be a preacher
it's hard for me to see someone laugh when describing hitting their child.
Me as well and never thought about it or never did it.
Proverbs 23:13-14
@@deathovertreason Deuteronomy 21:18-21
New International Version
A Rebellious Son
18 If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” 21 Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.
@@Bugsy0333 what point are you trying to make?
@@deathovertreason That the Bible has a very warped perception on how to discipline your children.
SERIOUSLY PEOPLE READ YOUR OWN BIBLE. HE DIDNT EVEN GIVE A VERSE NUMBER.
What Worldview you say? Hmm, How about one that doesn't treat children like animals. How about people who have seen the type of harm corporal punishment does to children.
Quoting Hey Hi who used wisdom in that verse.
“Spare the rod, spoil the child” actually refers to the Shepard’s rod or crook. Just like how a Shepard’s guides his sheep and cares for them, a father instructs, loves, and instills wisdom and teaching into a child. Spare the wisdom, teaching and instruction and you spoil the child. It doesn’t mean beat you child and hit them. That teaches fear, and teaches them to hit. You wouldn’t hit a adult, because that would land you in jail. You wouldn’t hit a dog or animal, because that would land you in jail. You wouldn’t hit yourself, because that’s self harm and would land you in a mental hospital. Why is a child any different? You can’t possibly correct a child out of love by hitting them and watching them cry out of pain.
We used to get whoopins and the get more if we cried too much, and got harder whoopins if we didn’t cry at all. I understand this isn’t what the Bible teaches, but I have so many issues because of the horrible “father” in my life that I have no intention of spanking my son or daughter. I don’t know how to administer physical punishment because all I had to go off of was literal beatings. It gives me anxiety and nausea just imagining spanking Jr and baby girl. What about my situation?
Talk to your children before spanking them, and make sure you’re not angry. Have in mind a maximum number of swats you intend to give, and stop sooner if your child gives in. Place them over your knee and only hit the buttocks. Do not hit them anywhere else. I see no problem with using a hand, I got hand spanked and also hand spanked my kids. Using a switch is more biblical. Afterwards hug them and tell them you love them.
Talk to your children before spanking them, and make sure you’re not angry. Have in mind a maximum number of swats you intend to give, and stop sooner if your child gives in. Place them over your knee and only hit the buttocks. Do not hit them anywhere else. I see no problem with using a hand, I got hand spanked and also hand spanked my kids. Using a switch is more biblical. Afterwards hug them and tell them you love them.
Spank is good, violence is bad. Humans learn through pain, we are wired like that.
You don’t beat the kid, spanking is a bit of pain, no need to leave scars or any kind of mark, but it’s a must to discipline.
Spanking is just your subjectivism, Sir, sorry. Even the proverbs should be understood as a guidance principle more than getting it literally. But spanking doesn't have any biblical base, might be the justification of your acts instead.
For all those who disagree with Ptr. John Piper, remember that Jesus was not only "spanked" for our sins, He bore the punishment that we all deserve and died on the cross for all of us. Again what Ptr. John Piper is saying here is what the Bible says which is counter-intuitive and this actually throws everyone off who does not understand God's grace. Those who do not understand this equate love with sparing the child from the rod and equating the use of the it with anger and hate.
prove it scientifically
Yup and since Jesus bore our punishment, and we are Christians, we put our trust and hope in Him to deliver us. There’s no need to follow poetry from the Old Testament when we’re living in the New.
My parents were way harder on me than what he's describing
Solomon was the one who promoted corporal punishment and look how his brats turned out! Solomon also turned on god and sacrificed children to the idol Molech. Also, the Law has passed becuase Jesus DID fulfill it!
Spanking is promoted in the NT as well, so don't excuse yourself with "the Law has passed".
Solomon was the child of David correct? David DID NOT correct Solomon when he should have. Priests didn't correct his sons and God killed all his defendants. Just saying
Hell no, you realize that most adults are actually just adult children that don’t know how to properly manage punishment. Mine always acted out of hate and anger, you may have done it out of compassion, but the truth is, not many parents spank out of compassion. This is quite the narrow minded view
You shouldn't base your entire child raising philosophy one one scripture!
I am sorry that this man either does not know or is dishonest about the translating of those parts of the Bible. The Bible is not as simple as he implies… and he needs to go read “BibleChild.” This is wrong, wrong, wrong, advice. The research is hard evidence, as well as all the thousands of ruined lives. Tragic, tragic, child abuse and ignorance. Oh “god” help us.
My sister and I were both spanked as a children. We both have tremendous relationships with our parents now as adults. I know this is anecdotal, but even children can realize the difference between physical discipline done out of love and physical abuse.
People please read Psalm 23 your shebet they comfort me. Shebet in Hebrews mean rod, staff, scepter. The Shepherd use it as a guidance, direction, teaching and Teaching mean Discipline. The Bible meant if you spare your child from guiding or leading them not hit. Hit is not comforting and use fear and force. God gives us freedom of choice. That will be so contradicting if God's character if God give us freedom to choose but when we choose wrong thing He spanked us?! That would make Him a liar but discipline is teach and teach us from wrong and right and there is consequences on our choices and He lovingly warn us that if we make bad choices we hurt ourselves, others and God.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
King James Version
18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
Most of what the bible says makes some sense to me but I just can't wrap my head around spanking being good for a child's psyche. This makes me very angry, I can't help it.
All the people in comments section complaining about being spanked when they were kids never saw the real reason why they were spanked. They blame their parents, well they are not the ones who misbehaved or did the sin, "YOU DID", They still blame their parents up to this point in their lives and that's just emotional and psychological immaturity. I grew in a third world country so I know what I am talking about disciplining your kid and as for the parents saying they never spanked their kids and grew up as angels, this is only in your perspective as a parent. You are biased and they said their kids grew normal 😂, that right their is contradictory. What? you have an angel of a teenager? your kid is special? get off your high horse. When I go to a social gathering most misbehaved kids are the ones that never got spanked. I know because the parents tells us that they don't believe in spanking.
Children should not be hit or slapped. You are just trying to legitimize your bible where it says "spare the rod, spoil the child." Ridiculous. That verse translates to "spare the instruction, and spoil the child." It is about educating the child at home, giving them direction, guidance, and teaching them. A lot of people are ignorant of how to do this, so they hit and strike their child. Think about it, you are much bigger than this little child and you are raising your hand to hit and strike them, while telling them they should not hit others and that you love them. This is confusing for the child. Before even having kids, everyone should take a Good Parenting class to know the correct way to raise a child. Also, if everyone did what the bible said, they would be killing their obedient teenager as well as doing the horrible deeds of the Westboro Church people.
Well Piper, you just lost my respect. Jesus WOULD NOT condone that at all.. If you are willing to go to jail because you believe a child should be abused and potentially molested in this fashion, then you are one sick, twisted person.
Thomas Stone you sound crazy. He didn't say anything wrong.
of course it's wrong. You're just a sheep eating anything they feed you
if he's willing to go to jail for that, at least he's coming by it honestly. Unlike most abusive stuff, where you're told "this is for your own good but don't tell anyone". Of course he says that when his kids are all past the age that it's legal(well, in Canada anyway)
I agree with you, they pick and choose what they want from the old testament.
Thomas, how many kids do you have?
SPARE THE ROD SPOIL THE CHILD IS NOT BIBLICAL PEOPLE. ITS FROM A POEM AND ITS TALKING ABOUT FORNICATION BETWEEN A MAN AND A MARRIED WOMAN.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
King James Version
18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
@@Bugsy0333 John.8
[1] Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
[2] And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
[3] And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
[4] They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
[5] Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
[6] This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
[7] So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
[8] And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
[9] And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
@@Bugsy0333 Jesus came to fulfill the law of Moses with love and grace. He is our example on how we should relate to the world and to the father in this new covenant. Maybe we should study how Jesus related to children as well as how he disciplined his disciples. I think you'll find nowhere that Jesus used or encouraged physical punishment in that discipline much less to his enemies or persecutors.
@@Bugsy0333 so sure, if your operating under the old law and covenant of Moses go ahead and stone your child. But if you've accepted the gift of salvation and relationship with the father of which Jesus died for you should probably not.
@@rebeccafergusson7293 Sorry Rebecca but you wouldn't start reading a book at chapter 6 would you? This is a famous thing that theist love to do discount the old testament. The old testament is the word of God . It promotes slavery murder rape incest and genocide. It is immoral and sickening. If that's the message being sent I want nothing to do with this God.Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved. So if you ignore the least commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God’s laws and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. But I warn you-unless your righteousness is better than the righteousness of the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven!” - MATTHEW 5:17-20
Ok so if my father spanked me and then gave me a hug and said "Don't do it ok, love you" I would love my dad and be jumping off walls too, lol! But if my father told me to stay in the room I wouldn't feel loved
@jtg42n42q iuq3irqn People unfortunately don't think like you do, they care to be influencED and decide thinking by oneself as an action of disobedience to the Bible.
If YHWH actually comes up to me on judgement day and tells me spanking itself actually is a righteous act, then I would determine God to be Evil.
God bless this gentle spirit. Although I disagree with him on many topics, a discussion with him would surely never turn into anger. I hope all faiths and practices can look at this man, and see Christ, as I do. If we all were as humble as him we would turn the world on its head. I pray that I can come to a point in my life where God gives me this portion of the Spirit, he gave Mr. piper
Gentle and calm, however, was the way that our father ruined our mental health. Same with Charles Stanley, both Sr. And Jr. They think it’s ok to start spanks at age ONE. ONE? It is slapping the buttocks. I must beg you people to see my work. I am BEGGING YOU to research what happens around this treatment of the buttocks :(. “God” help us.
It is stunning to see such sloppy scholarship from a pastor who is know for scholarship.
The Miserable Man Because he knows it doesn’t make sense and he really can’t argue it
Discipline yes. Spanking isn't the only way to discipline.