So - what are your favourite runs of the comic, and which on screen adaptation do you think works the best? If you're in a position to do so and want more stuff like this - consider checking out www.patreon.com/inframeout IFO x
The latest bomb was Immortal Hulk, Guardians Of the Galaxy the OG one the whole cosmic marvel from Age of kings to Anihilations, Moon knight Lemire plus Ellis run, Ultimate spider man, All star superman can somebody pls doo All star superman?
Almost every version of The Punisher is dross. The 1989 Dolph Lundgren vehicle is a half-decent 80's action flick, buy has almost nothing to do with the comics. The Tom Jane starring mid-2000s effort is almost a self-satire, with a melodramatic and jokey tone, ludicrous villian and silly supporting characters. The nominal sequel, War Zone, is barely a movie; more like a badly assembled series of sketches for overloaded action scenes without the semblance of a plot. But honestly, the Marvel series is the nadir: an unreconstructed, unredemptive, morally bankrupt exercise in gun worshiping redneck revenge fantasies, with cardboard characters, mechanical script-writing and frankly sadistic fascination with the title character's violent nihilism. It's slick production value and the quality of John Berenthal in the lead role are deceptive window-dressing for what is, at heart, an ugly, empty and deeply cynical product, that serves up elaborately choreographed violence in ever more contrived ways, and has nothing to offer beyond the most reactionary messaging and a lot of chauvinistic, numbskull posturing around the supposed purity of eye-for-an-eye moral arguments. It's a truly horrendous program, and the worst thing Marvel has produced to date (and I say that having watched all of Iron Fist).
Dolph Lundgren is the perfect Punisher. he has abandoned his past as a loving family man so he can wage an endless war against criminals. the other adaptations failed because they tried to humanize him.
Since Marvel comic's shitty editorial team retconned Frank into School shooter and killed him off in the comics, I could give a fuck if they ever brought him back. Marvel struck some gold when they handed Garth Ennis the reins and he produced several equally gonzo and serious runs that were fantastic, with the art of frequent collaborator Steve Dillion filling the pages and Tim Bradstreet on covers. However, the original "Punisher War Zone", written by Chuck Dixon with the primary art by John Romita Jr, took on a early exploration of Frank's view of "The War", as he called it. Linus, aka Microchip, had a large role in the War Zone stories, as he really was not as broken as Frank, he does abandon him while Frank ends up letting a murderous mob boss go because of infatuation. I loved Barracuda, I thought he was a hilarious and serious threat for Castle, and he's the least offensive thing I can think of when I think of characters Ennis has created. Punisher: Warzone works as my favorite of the films. Its brutal, Ray Stevenson (RIP) is pretty on-point at being Frank Castle, and Dominic West is equally fun to watch as Jigsaw. A longer cut of the film and more time to build up to the federal agent being killed would be preferred. I agree that Warzone is a cartoon gorefest. At the same time, Its still feels like a comic book movie. I like the TV series enough, Billy aka Jigsaw was not intimidating as a villain.
In my mind the biggest problem all the adaptations have is they really haven't embraced the idea that The Punisher is meant to be a villain for super villains. He's supposed to be deranged and cruel, just that it happens his hatred is aimed at very bad people. In the end I think Ma Gnucci was kinda right, he's a serial killer obsessed with a war he's very aware is meant to be endless
Exactly. He's the nightmare bogeyman for bad guys. He's no bright cape smiling icon for super heroic valor. He's a white blood cell turning on its environment.
@@Iron-Bridge jon bernthal never really gave the idea that Frank's a great guy. Honestly, its as close as we get to the Punisher in the comics, and from a marketting standpoint, shady good guy trumps better than villian bad guy
@@anubhavdassarma7230 it depends on what era you're talking about. He's changed a LOT since the 70's. Pre Garth Ennis was cartoonishly violent and melodramatic. Ennis turned him into a barely functional sociopath with great success. Modern Punisher has been getting slowly humanized since Ennis left, less sociopathic and more "broken dude". As good as Bernthal's turn has been, I prefer one closer to the Ennis style, for whom, deep down, it's NOT a righteous quest for vengeance, but a justification for an endless war. It's the perfect blend of what worked in the earlier and later runs without what killed them
The Punisher is always misunderstood. He is a man who was ALWAYS the Punisher. He got a single ray of hope in his life to change him from a killing machine to a human being, his family. When he lost that he lost his humanity almost entirely, but for them he will always protect the innocent and kill those who cause the innocent to suffer. He has no compassion for anyone who harms the innocent. He barely has compassion for the innocent but will save them given the chance. The Punisher is basically the Grim Reaper, he is a human doing the same job as Ghost Rider just more effectively. Warzone is the movie that shows who he is best, he will kill any enemy but if he accidentally harms an innocent he will gladly take a bullet from their family as penance.
Honestly, the idea of the Punisher is just hilarious now. He's a regular man who's good with guns, surrounded by androids, wizards, space-aliens, and interdimensional-travelers. Even a character like Spawn who also uses guns, understands their ineffectiveness from actual hell-demons. Hell, one of the MCU characters has literal bulletproof skin. I honestly love Jon Berenthal's version of Castle. He's battle-damaged and it absolutely shows. When he's in combat, he growls, he seethes, he roars, he's damn-near animalistic. When he's not fighting, he's constantly haunted by his traumas, even before his family dies. That one event only worsened his mental-state tenfold. He's a bad-ass, but you would NOT wanna be on an elevator with him.
Why not? As long as you've not done anything to get on HIS "naughty list" you'd be fine. In fact, as long as you're not on that list, he'd die for you...
When I was in Vegas late last year, the amount of blue lives matter Punisher stickers on the trucks of people actively committing crimes sure was weird
@inframeout As someone who has lived in Vegas for 21 years I can tell you that is not a new phenomenon. They don't read comics and don't understand Punisher hates racist cops too. He kills cops constantly.
I believe that Jon Bernthal's Punisher is the best one. His two seasons are both great action and an insight into what it truly means to be Frank Castle.
The game had many mechanics I really enjoyed. Unlocking comic covers - which few Marvel games do, the absolute harrowing torture sequences, and the fun grading system that really challenged you.
I think the biggest problem is that people want the punisher to be a hero instead of an anti hero... where he is more of an anti villain in my eyes... i mean he's more or less an active shooter who goes after "mostly" bad guys...
He's a mass murdering sociopath who actively targets marginalised, poor and substance dependent groups so he can kill them and "Clean up" his city. Dude's an absolute wacko
@@inframeout exactly... it's more luck or random chance that he gets the real bad guys... for him it's just revenge and retribution for what's been done to him... and everyone who stands in the way of that is " evil" in his eyes and therefore they have to die... he's not really doing it to improve the world or help people in need... it's 100% selfish on his part....
That's why "Punisher: Born" (the comic run about his time in Vietnam) is so so great. He's addicted to war, and has a creeping dark voice that keeps whispering "Just cut me loose Frank, give in to the kill"
Your take is so spot on here. Just got put on to your channel, really great work. Personally, Bernthal's Punisher in DD S2 is hands down the best take on the character that sadly fell by the wayside in the solo series. If the Daredevil show runners had been brought on to do the spinoff I think it probably would have been exactly what fans had been looking for. Also, love your Converge reference, you're clearly my people.
A tough character to pull off but a compelling one when you do. My favourite version isn't even The Punisher but a Punisher-adjacent character in Omar Little. Also, I loved that clip from the short film, especially the character who reacts how we all would if a maniac attacks us then started quoting philosophy to you.
Who would be the perfect director to make a Punisher film? For me it may be Sam Rami bc his style is so dynamic and memorable and he adores comics a lot. However Robert Rodriguez could pull off a very good version too given his track record for insane violence mixed with fantastical oddness.
Old school Sam Raimi (with a hint of the maturity of "A Simple Plan") would be such a good match. Weirdly - and I know the dude is an absolute weirdo - I think S. Craig Zahler ("Bone Tomahawk", "Brawl In Cell Block 99") would be perfect
I'd love to see a _Punisher_ film (preferably with Jane as lead) that goes the _Batman_ (2022) route. Have the villain be another vigilante inspired by Frank only somehow even more extreme - eg they have no problem killing innocent civilians - or even make them an updated version of Payback who calls Castle out for focusing on the wrong targets. That way you can still have Frank as the "hero" but also make him reflect on his own actions
They could absolutely do that if they adapted the character of "Elite" - who is essentially a Punisher copycat obsessed with gentrification, who only targets persons of colour and people without homes so he can "Keep the neighborhood clean".
I haven’t watched the movies, but I feel like the show definitely brings in such subjects as Frank’s mental state, the ethicality of his actions, while also showing that he does have a human side (sometimes)
There was another video that asked what is your typical Wolverine story. It often starts with Wolvie doing an odd job, or chilling when someone shows up that threatens him and/or someone he cares about. Then he has to settle it. What happened in both seasons of the Punisher? They where Wolverine stories, and not Punisher stories. IMO the only real Punisher story we have gotten on film is Punisher: Warzone.
Agreed. Episode three (the rooftop episode where he's ties up "Daredevil" and is forcing him to question his own morality) isn't just a phenomenal adaptation of a very similar arc in the Punisher comics - it's maybe the best single piece of Punisher media
First time I ever saw the punisher was in the 90s spiderman cartoon and since then I've become of big fan of the punisher my favorite comic storyline was welcome back Frank
very good retrospective. I had forgotten about Ma Gnucci. Ennis and his absurd characters. And you managed to summarize my thoughts on Netflix show: "... eeehhh" I didn't know about the whole appropriation bs. But I think it was well explained by a couple of frames at 23:14
The problem with people adapting the Garth Ennis stuff, comes from the fact that Ennis understands something about Frank that no one in adaption has. Frank Castle is not a good guy, he's not a hero. He's a serial killer who has been pointed in a somewhat constructive direction. He's like Dexter Morgan or Paul Kursey (Death Wish) who is really his spiritual father. Frank Castle is not meant to be empathized with. He's not right in what he does, he's a lunatic on a prolonged killing spree. Ennis understands this about him. But no one else seems to and honestly that's kind of depressing. Like knowing some people genuinely think that Rorschach is a cool badass, and not a weird smelly hobo man with repugnant political and social views.
Nah ennis does that but he’s also someone with a very strong moral compass. He would never kill an innocent and there is a lot to be said that the Punisher was once willing to settle down and put his impulsives aside. And that’s what makes him so interesting is that unlike Dexter who will comprise his morals the Punisher would rather kill himself than do that. But at the same time Ennis also portrays him as an emotionally hollow man but it’s a balancing act
Ooooh sweet. The Punisher's my first and favourite comic-book character, to the point of inspiring me to become a comic artist. I'm glad to see you talking about him ! Run speaking, the top 3 (in my opinion) is : 3- Rucka and Checchetto 2- Aaron and Dillon 1- Every. Single. Ennis. Issue.
The 2004 punisher is the best one hands down, at least in my opinion. sure there are some imperfections with it, but overall nails the methodical nature while still showing that crushing brutality of Frank Castle. It also was a film that showed his more human side when it could. Making him more than a one dimensional mess
Thomas Jane is the best Punisher. He's let down by the questionable characters around him, the dodgy script, the lack of real budget and Travolta's underwhelming villain. But Jane brought a real understanding and humanity to the role. I only wish that he had a chance to reprise his role in a real sequel. War Zone, however, is one of the all time so-bad-its-good films. It's a heaping helping of WTFness.
It is definitely the script writers all the actors who played Frank have something going for them but it’s the people behind the scenes pulling their punches. I haven’t seen the 1989 movie but I have seen the rest of them. Tom Jane acts like the punisher from the time. Ray Stevenson looks the part from the max comics. Then Jon Bernthal who gave us the heart wrench from his performance. My personal two favorites are Tom Jane and Jon Bernthal.
I doubt we'll see Frank any time soon on the big screen considering what Marvel and Jason Aaron just did to him. They could have just opted not to use him anymore, or retire him, but they dug his wire up, and humiliated him first. Jon Bernthal has said he'd never betray the character so we'll see how his second go as Frank goes. I liked him, but my favorite is Thomas Jane, followed by Ray Stevenson.
If you take it as a whole the Netflix punisher doesn’t work but that one hour where he waits in his lair and destroys everyone is the best version of Home Alone I’ve ever seen
The “Russian,” is actually Arnold Schwarzenegger’s stunt double for Conan, snd many movies in the 80’s. He was also a character in many of those movies.
If you're referring to the 2005 one, then that's Kevin Nash and it's not on his IMDB. He appears to have no stunt credits at all. Even if it's an oversight, Nash dials in ay 6'10", which isn't a good stand in for Arnold's 6'2".
I think I’d like to see that part in the comics when Frank becomes a full on Angel of Vengeance. I’d also love love love, and this is a big ask, to hear your defense of Garth Ennis and his other work. I’m a huge fan of him and Steve Dillon, and I think I’d really just like to hear you talk about Preacher for as long as possible.
"Preacher" and "The Boys" seem like articulated and conscientious attempts to straddle the lines of poor taste and then subvert them in order to point out the fallibility of heroes and the corrupting force of power. His edgy nonsense in "Punisher" just reeks of "Ha ha ha I am being horrible". A problem that reached its apex with the nonstop edgelord of "Crossed"
"They deserve . . . gun-ishment!" sones up the character to me. Can't get on board with Punisher at all. Liked him in second season of Daredevil but gave up on his own show when they used the Tom Waits song 'Hell Broke Luce' for a scene of him brutally killing some overly horrible villains. I was like, fuck sake, how can you hear that song and not recognise how ANTI-WAR it is?
The first episode is my favorite but using such an intense anti war song and a song about suicide is a good song for the character but not the scene to use it in. Maybe using it before he kills again and making it more of a sad unfortunate thing rather than a fuck yea moment.
1 year later and I highly doubt this will be seen by anyone, but at around 18:30 you mentioned Frank's attitude and violence is nonstop. I think that is intentionally done to indicate how the hell in his head is the same...nonstop and almost on the verge of being too much to allow him to function at all. I just remember saying during one of the MANY re-watches (on both platforms) thinking "God, he doesn't even get a single fucking moment's peace, does he??"
@@inframeout it’s finished season 4 is the last season it’s done. But if you’ll do a video on it I’ll cry I feel like you would have a different opinion.
For me, The Punisher series suffers heavily from a single problem that nobody talks often about. This is a problem that you notice as well in most male or female lead revenge stories. Which is that most of these revenge tales suffer from something I’ll refer to as “the Death Wish problem”. For those unfamiliar, Death Wish is a 1974 action film starring Charles Bronson as Paul Kersey, a Manhattan architect who after his wife and daughter are brutally raped and beaten (His wife dead from the whole tragedy.), becomes a vigilante. The movie at the time was controversial at the time of its release, due to its apparent “romanticism of vigilante justice”. However during the 1970s, the country, particularly NYC, was seeing a massive influx of violent crime and people were becoming fearful over the chaos that was spreading throughout the community. Because of this Death Wish, despite its lack of condemnation of vigilantism, was at the time, rather well received by audiences. As it was said to have captured the zeitgeist of the era and served as a means of catharsis for many Americans who were dealing with frustration over the nation’s skyrocketing crime rates. Therefore, Death Wish has cemented its place in pop culture today, and is looked back upon by most filmgoers as a somewhat decent movie of the “action revenge-genre”. Well…. except for author/screenwriter Brian Garfield of the 1972 novel that Death Wish adapted from. Garfield was appalled by the film for his lack of castigation of vigilantism. Something that his novel goes to GREAT length to portray as something that not only fails to help with your trauma, but also only leads to more bloodshed. He was so irate at the film his novel was made into, that he released a sequel called Death Sentence about a year later. The novel was considered as a form of penance, for the film version of the story. Which emphasizes how much of a complete mess Paul is after attaining vengeance, and still cannot be at peace with what he’s done. So if you put both Death Wish (1974 film) and Death Sentence (1975 novel) side-by side, you’ll see the two major types of revenge narratives that exist in entertainment today. One hand gives us tales like the 1974 film, where the protagonist pursues justice/vengeance on their own terms, but the violence that gets dishes out is viewed as almost completely cathartic, without any deeper examinations of the moral implications of said-violence. Basically, “DON’T QUESTION THE MOVIE. Just watch and be entertained by the lead character beating, stabbing or shooting people and blowing stuff up.” (Examples are Payback, Kill Bill, and The Brave One.). On the other hand, are tales like the 1975 novel, where the protagonist’s pursuit of vengeance is set up as a futile endeavor that only leads to the moral degradation of the protagonist, with the protagonist either seeing the error of their ways by the climax of the any particular story or deciding not to, continue pursuing their vengeance, all the way to an early grave. Ending with them becoming their own worst enemy. (Examples are Unforgiven, Oldboy (2003), and Blue Ruin.) Now I personally prefer the latter type of narrative, as I find them to be more thematically interesting and mature. But that’s not to say that one type is better than the other. There are noteworthy films on both sides of the spectrum. The problem when it comes to Frank Castle in the Daredevil/Punisher shows is that the creators switch from one type of narrative to the other. Where halfway throughout, we see the trauma that Frank goes through and what it does to him, but then halfway, these moments never usually get brought up again, as the second half sees him just loading up with his weapons and getting ready to kill some people and have his vengeance, which usually sees him almost succeeding in a near perfect manner, instead of causing a few screw ups that may lead to them making a difficult choice. And even if we do see this happen, it’s never brought up in the show again, nor looks like it has any affect on how Frank’s vigilante choices are being made. From what I get from the show, it seems like the creators want to have their cake and eat it too. But in doing so, they fail to portray their characters’ traumas in a nuanced and mature way, by showing the true impact that such a trauma can have on someone. You’ll see a lot of show creators or filmmakers who have little to no interest in exploring the effects of trauma in any shape or form. They simply used it as a device to heighten emotional investment that we (the audience) would have, to see such a protagonist basically go full kill-mode on such dirtbags, like any comic book hero. Considering even what such people did to the character, while seeing Frank attain his vengeance is satisfying, you do need to display a sense of flaws in how he's going to go about taking on such a plan. But it never happens, which leads to another problem. Because we as an audience get so obsessed over action or superhero movies where the lead suffers a certain trauma before or during their story, we are conditioned to see them be the hero by the end. Until you actually take some time to THINK ABOUT IT FOR A MINUTE. While probably not a direct inspiration, many can say that Frank is basically what would happen if Spider-Man or Batman chose to cause bloodshed within their vengeance, after seeing the trauma of their loved ones killed. However, the reason Frank Castle in the comics worked so well is because he's suppose to be characterized as someone who's a total moral absolutist, even showing some misanthropic beliefs (Even if he claims otherwise.). To him, there are good guys and bad guys, and he's suppose to be a good guy, right? But then why in his first introduction in the comics, he's viewed as a bad guy? Well, it's complicated. Because Frank's moral compass isn't all that sound given his past. He is shown to speak ill of his environment, especially considering how violent crime is seen to be a problem in the city. But he never holds, nor does he ever express any bigoted beliefs for those arguing against his character (Although some interpretations say otherwise.). But based on his general misanthropy his distaste for the urban decay of the city, it may lead to how some should question their view of him. So in hindsight, both the creators and audiences who have long read the comics of his character have it wrong, in questioning to whether he was always meant to be portrayed as a toxic evil man, or claiming him to be the undisputed hero. As there no question that his character is pretty much a sociopath, suffering from many severe mental disorders, AND HE NEEDS HELP. To quote comic writer Alan Moore: "I thought about superhero types like Batman, so I thought, ‘What would he be like in the real world?’. And if you’re a revenge-driven vigilante, you’re not quite right in the head. Yeah, alright, your parents got killed when you were a kid, that’s upsetting. But for most of us, if our parents were killed when we were little, we would not become a bat-themed costumed vigilante-that’s a bit mental." And that's why I believe The Punisher show failed. As it could have been a chance to take a character and explore so much more into a complex narrative. To make a comic book character be the complete opposite of traditional heroes or villains, and make Frank Castle, who was driven by a traumatic experience that he adopts a whole new persona that is fueled by revenge, and try to display what really happens to them as he does so: Being severely mentally disturbed with their moral code being warped and twisted based on the exact nature of severe traumatic experiences he's endured.
I love all 3 Franks. I don’t personally think I have one I prefer. Janes voice and look was magnificent, Steven’s was literally the most comic book accurate looking at least and he acted his ass off and bernthal I have problems with the story for sure but he played it so raw, and his mil spec look is by far my favorite especially with his head shaved like daredevil or season 1. They all did great. If not for Ray Steven’s passing I’d love to see a “no way home” style punisher film lol. Oh crap I completely forgot lugdren lmfao, his is not terrible but by far the worst, no skull and his voice always bothered me, sounded like a drunk rocky lol
Great video. Been a big fan of Punisher since freshman year of high school but a lot of the association with the skull over the recent years has had me seriously considering a rebranding a name Ive used since 2008. I stay current with the mainline comics and still love the character, but think he and his way of thinking needs to stay in fiction.
The devil on Kevin Feige's shoulder: C'mon Kevin, you know the adaptation they really want! You can have Blade, and Man-Thing! It's the one story everyone loves! DO FRANKENCASTLE
as much as i disagree with you (i loved the netflix show, and i preferred season 1 over season 2, don’t @ me) i still really enjoyed this video! watching the show and reading a little more into his character, i can see with what intentions he was created. but in the 50 years since, society has changed a lot and i would love to see the next season or show created about the punisher reflect on those changes. i‘d love to see an even more deranged and brutal version with an even more in your face message about why he is an ANTIhero and not just a hero. i feel like the producers often water down the satire he is to not risk any controversy and it’s sad.
*In certain extreme situations, the law is inadequate. In order to shame its inadequacy, it is necessary to act outside the law. To pursue... natural justice. This is not vengeance. Revenge is not a valid motive, it's an emotional response. No. Not vengeance. Punishment.*
Maybe The Punisher works bear under a satirical framework instead of a self seriously anti hero or maybe a mixture of the two. In my mind Punisher is a character built on extremes but cynical extremes and not altruistic extremes.
It's not my favourite, but the Dolph Lundgren was fun for me on a stylistic level. I enjoyed the weird intro, the cheap-as-fuck but striking sets, etc.
Another candidate to club "comics are soo much better pls read comics" featuring Thor Good killer plus Ragnarok, Vision, Moon knight Ellis and Lemire run ....and soo much more" (I am curious if we ever will get Immortal Hulk)
I loved warzone and the 89 movie I have always liked, the other movie I didn't like but the Netflix show came so close but dropped the ball with jigsaw and the supporting characters
somehow i've been in your community for this long without realizing you're into comics lol. Have you read The Immortal Hulk run, written by Al Ewing and Joe Bennett? Some of the most leftist themes I've seen packaged into a comic, and it's also just a really great story to boot with some awesome body horror elements
The thing about The Punisher is he is completely incapable of seeing anything outside of black and white. He treats everything like if it either does or doesn't need to be nuked. I really have no clue why the rest of the Marvel heroes put up with besides needed someone to deal with freaks like Jigsaw. I liked all the Punisher films, even with their various flaws. I thought his stuff in the Daredevil series was compelling. His own Netflix show was ok. The first season tried dealing with the topic of mass shooters and even had a scene with a debate from both sides of the gun debate but nobody watches Punisher stuff for disputation. I only watched the first episode of the second season.
My 2 cents: 1) I think the Lundgren '89 version is a bit underrated. Yes, it's '80s cheese, but the psychotic feel he provided is closer to the darkness of the comic book. 2) Hated the 2004 Jane one. He looks like a celebrity cosplaying the Punisher for Heidi Klum's Halloween bash. Too "pretty boy" Hollywood, and his "strutting" looks so contrived. Also - setting it in Florida (I think?) was a TERRIBLE move, because in the comics, NYC itself is a character, so to speak. Moving it elsewhere diminished the mythos significantly.
Punisher isnt a right wing power fantasy, its genuinely people like you spouting that, thats the reason marvel have absolutely torched everything punisher related and replaced him with a "safe" version.
Why the fuck do you think the punisher is "the perfect candidate for political debate"? Hes an angry dude who kills criminals cuz he wants to avenge his family, but really he just likes it. How the hell SHOULD this guy be politicized????
I'd love for them to end the new disney series with a comic civil war nod and have a "real" superhero kick his ass and call him a murderous piece of trash like Capt America did 😅
Jon Bernthal show was great in my opinion. Utterly loved his portrayal and the show was very dark, just how I like it. I liked the Thomas Jayne movie as well, had pretty much everything I expected from The Punnisher movie of that era. Was not fan of War Zone but I can see how people can enjoy it.
Punisher 1989 was my favorite and followed the comics well. The skull teeshirt is a big white bullseye and is the dumbest thing for a covert killer to wear. It had great scenes and really fit Frank as a depressed man out for revenge. 2001 punisher only had a great short film. The movie itself sucked butt. Not until the Netflix series was there anything worth watching.
I honestly feel that the Punisher works best in contrast. A lot of my favourite moments from the comics are when his brutal ethos clashes with characters like Daredevil, Spider-Man or Captain America. I feel another way Netflix could have made Defenders a compelling show would have been if they had thrown punisher in the mix. That show needed more character conflict (And Frank would have butted heads with everyone on that team in different ways) and a more distinct variety of styles to the fight scenes (defenders ended up with a bland mix of two agile fighters and two powerhouses punching guys in suits. Throwing the punisher in would have added guns and knives into the mix perhaps spicing things up ) I can just imagine the intriguing changes to the big defenders fight scenes with the others not only having to fight off the hand ninjas but constantly trying to reign in the Punisher who is shooting and slicing his way through the enemies. Itd be like a game of pass the parcel where they each have a moment where they react to the Punishers bloodlust and respond in their own ways using their abilities or skills to block him from killing someone. Maybe some of them dont even bother because of their own views raising the question of which defenders are the most and least aligned to his world view.
14:56 tell us you've never read a story with Jigsaw without saying you've never read a story with Jigsaw. Or a pre-Ennis Punisher comic. "War Zone", despite the schlock is a great movie in as so far as it's accuracy to the older runs and that it fills the same niche as the original "RoboCop". You cannot judge splatter-action like Shakespeare, thats like judging hockey like it was figure skating
Why are you acting like I hated the film when I categorically state how much I like it...I'm extremely positive about "War Zone" and love the splatter?! I say all that in the video. I also have literally every single TPB of The Punisher from the 80s until 2021.
You do realize that the creators of Dredd made him as a satire of jackboot fascists, right? Like - google, wiki, TH-cam any writing on that character by anyone involved in his creation
The irony of injecting your political bias whilst talking about the character in question as a Rorschach test isn't lost on me, but it seems to be lost on you.
Wait - how is "Don't kill, hurt or intimidate people under the guise of a comic book symbol" a political statement?! Isn't that just common sense - and that's before we get into the fact that the people misappropriating the Punisher are acting in complete opposition of what the character and it's creators are intended for?
So - what are your favourite runs of the comic, and which on screen adaptation do you think works the best?
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IFO x
The latest bomb was Immortal Hulk, Guardians Of the Galaxy the OG one the whole cosmic marvel from Age of kings to Anihilations, Moon knight Lemire plus Ellis run, Ultimate spider man, All star superman can somebody pls doo All star superman?
Almost every version of The Punisher is dross. The 1989 Dolph Lundgren vehicle is a half-decent 80's action flick, buy has almost nothing to do with the comics. The Tom Jane starring mid-2000s effort is almost a self-satire, with a melodramatic and jokey tone, ludicrous villian and silly supporting characters. The nominal sequel, War Zone, is barely a movie; more like a badly assembled series of sketches for overloaded action scenes without the semblance of a plot. But honestly, the Marvel series is the nadir: an unreconstructed, unredemptive, morally bankrupt exercise in gun worshiping redneck revenge fantasies, with cardboard characters, mechanical script-writing and frankly sadistic fascination with the title character's violent nihilism. It's slick production value and the quality of John Berenthal in the lead role are deceptive window-dressing for what is, at heart, an ugly, empty and deeply cynical product, that serves up elaborately choreographed violence in ever more contrived ways, and has nothing to offer beyond the most reactionary messaging and a lot of chauvinistic, numbskull posturing around the supposed purity of eye-for-an-eye moral arguments. It's a truly horrendous program, and the worst thing Marvel has produced to date (and I say that having watched all of Iron Fist).
Dolph Lundgren is the perfect Punisher. he has abandoned his past as a loving family man so he can wage an endless war against criminals. the other adaptations failed because they tried to humanize him.
Since Marvel comic's shitty editorial team retconned Frank into School shooter and killed him off in the comics, I could give a fuck if they ever brought him back.
Marvel struck some gold when they handed Garth Ennis the reins and he produced several equally gonzo and serious runs that were fantastic, with the art of frequent collaborator Steve Dillion filling the pages and Tim Bradstreet on covers.
However, the original "Punisher War Zone", written by Chuck Dixon with the primary art by John Romita Jr, took on a early exploration of Frank's view of "The War", as he called it. Linus, aka Microchip, had a large role in the War Zone stories, as he really was not as broken as Frank, he does abandon him while Frank ends up letting a murderous mob boss go because of infatuation.
I loved Barracuda, I thought he was a hilarious and serious threat for Castle, and he's the least offensive thing I can think of when I think of characters Ennis has created.
Punisher: Warzone works as my favorite of the films. Its brutal, Ray Stevenson (RIP) is pretty on-point at being Frank Castle, and Dominic West is equally fun to watch as Jigsaw. A longer cut of the film and more time to build up to the federal agent being killed would be preferred.
I agree that Warzone is a cartoon gorefest. At the same time, Its still feels like a comic book movie.
I like the TV series enough, Billy aka Jigsaw was not intimidating as a villain.
In my mind the biggest problem all the adaptations have is they really haven't embraced the idea that The Punisher is meant to be a villain for super villains. He's supposed to be deranged and cruel, just that it happens his hatred is aimed at very bad people. In the end I think Ma Gnucci was kinda right, he's a serial killer obsessed with a war he's very aware is meant to be endless
Exactly. So many adaptions see him as a good guy who does bad things, rather than "A very bad guy who thinks he's doing something good"
Exactly. He's the nightmare bogeyman for bad guys. He's no bright cape smiling icon for super heroic valor. He's a white blood cell turning on its environment.
@@Iron-Bridge jon bernthal never really gave the idea that Frank's a great guy. Honestly, its as close as we get to the Punisher in the comics, and from a marketting standpoint, shady good guy trumps better than villian bad guy
@@anubhavdassarma7230 it depends on what era you're talking about.
He's changed a LOT since the 70's.
Pre Garth Ennis was cartoonishly violent and melodramatic.
Ennis turned him into a barely functional sociopath with great success.
Modern Punisher has been getting slowly humanized since Ennis left, less sociopathic and more "broken dude".
As good as Bernthal's turn has been, I prefer one closer to the Ennis style, for whom, deep down, it's NOT a righteous quest for vengeance, but a justification for an endless war.
It's the perfect blend of what worked in the earlier and later runs without what killed them
The Punisher is always misunderstood. He is a man who was ALWAYS the Punisher. He got a single ray of hope in his life to change him from a killing machine to a human being, his family. When he lost that he lost his humanity almost entirely, but for them he will always protect the innocent and kill those who cause the innocent to suffer. He has no compassion for anyone who harms the innocent. He barely has compassion for the innocent but will save them given the chance. The Punisher is basically the Grim Reaper, he is a human doing the same job as Ghost Rider just more effectively. Warzone is the movie that shows who he is best, he will kill any enemy but if he accidentally harms an innocent he will gladly take a bullet from their family as penance.
Kinda but I think a single ray of hope is not painting a full picture. The tyger goes to show how William Blake shaped his world view
Honestly, the idea of the Punisher is just hilarious now. He's a regular man who's good with guns, surrounded by androids, wizards, space-aliens, and interdimensional-travelers. Even a character like Spawn who also uses guns, understands their ineffectiveness from actual hell-demons. Hell, one of the MCU characters has literal bulletproof skin.
I honestly love Jon Berenthal's version of Castle. He's battle-damaged and it absolutely shows. When he's in combat, he growls, he seethes, he roars, he's damn-near animalistic. When he's not fighting, he's constantly haunted by his traumas, even before his family dies. That one event only worsened his mental-state tenfold. He's a bad-ass, but you would NOT wanna be on an elevator with him.
Why not? As long as you've not done anything to get on HIS "naughty list" you'd be fine.
In fact, as long as you're not on that list, he'd die for you...
As someone living in rural America, thank you for covering The Punisher. A lot of people use that logo as an excuse to be an oppressive rude boy.
When I was in Vegas late last year, the amount of blue lives matter Punisher stickers on the trucks of people actively committing crimes sure was weird
23:15
It always makes me laugh when I see it on cop cars. It's bad when even the police are admitting the judicial system doesn't work.
@inframeout As someone who has lived in Vegas for 21 years I can tell you that is not a new phenomenon. They don't read comics and don't understand Punisher hates racist cops too. He kills cops constantly.
Thank you. People are ruining how special the skull really is.
I believe that Jon Bernthal's Punisher is the best one.
His two seasons are both great action and an insight into what it truly means to be Frank Castle.
"Sad dad turned mad lad" is the best summary of the Punisher's origin story I've ever seen
All these modern game revivals and not one remaster of the PS2 Punisher. Definitely one of my favorite adaptations.
I absolutely adore how it keeps the Garth Ennis severity and brutality, but folds it into the wider Marvel canon without it feeling out of place
The game had many mechanics I really enjoyed. Unlocking comic covers - which few Marvel games do, the absolute harrowing torture sequences, and the fun grading system that really challenged you.
I think the PC/emulated version even removes the black and white censoring on the fatality sequences
PS2 punisher was the best!!! I still replay it just cause. The music score was epic asf also!
I think the perfect Punisher was season 2 of Daredevil and the first half of season 1 of The Punisher
I think the biggest problem is that people want the punisher to be a hero instead of an anti hero... where he is more of an anti villain in my eyes... i mean he's more or less an active shooter who goes after "mostly" bad guys...
He's a mass murdering sociopath who actively targets marginalised, poor and substance dependent groups so he can kill them and "Clean up" his city. Dude's an absolute wacko
@@inframeout exactly... it's more luck or random chance that he gets the real bad guys... for him it's just revenge and retribution for what's been done to him... and everyone who stands in the way of that is " evil" in his eyes and therefore they have to die... he's not really doing it to improve the world or help people in need... it's 100% selfish on his part....
That's why "Punisher: Born" (the comic run about his time in Vietnam) is so so great. He's addicted to war, and has a creeping dark voice that keeps whispering "Just cut me loose Frank, give in to the kill"
Your take is so spot on here. Just got put on to your channel, really great work. Personally, Bernthal's Punisher in DD S2 is hands down the best take on the character that sadly fell by the wayside in the solo series. If the Daredevil show runners had been brought on to do the spinoff I think it probably would have been exactly what fans had been looking for. Also, love your Converge reference, you're clearly my people.
"You Fail Me" is a perfect album
100%, their most underrated as well. @@inframeout
A tough character to pull off but a compelling one when you do. My favourite version isn't even The Punisher but a Punisher-adjacent character in Omar Little.
Also, I loved that clip from the short film, especially the character who reacts how we all would if a maniac attacks us then started quoting philosophy to you.
Who would be the perfect director to make a Punisher film? For me it may be Sam Rami bc his style is so dynamic and memorable and he adores comics a lot. However Robert Rodriguez could pull off a very good version too given his track record for insane violence mixed with fantastical oddness.
Old school Sam Raimi (with a hint of the maturity of "A Simple Plan") would be such a good match.
Weirdly - and I know the dude is an absolute weirdo - I think S. Craig Zahler ("Bone Tomahawk", "Brawl In Cell Block 99") would be perfect
@@inframeout S Craig Zhaler would be my pick.
I'd love to see a _Punisher_ film (preferably with Jane as lead) that goes the _Batman_ (2022) route. Have the villain be another vigilante inspired by Frank only somehow even more extreme - eg they have no problem killing innocent civilians - or even make them an updated version of Payback who calls Castle out for focusing on the wrong targets. That way you can still have Frank as the "hero" but also make him reflect on his own actions
They could absolutely do that if they adapted the character of "Elite" - who is essentially a Punisher copycat obsessed with gentrification, who only targets persons of colour and people without homes so he can "Keep the neighborhood clean".
So would I bro
So maybe the barracuda arc?
I haven’t watched the movies, but I feel like the show definitely brings in such subjects as Frank’s mental state, the ethicality of his actions, while also showing that he does have a human side (sometimes)
There was another video that asked what is your typical Wolverine story. It often starts with Wolvie doing an odd job, or chilling when someone shows up that threatens him and/or someone he cares about. Then he has to settle it.
What happened in both seasons of the Punisher? They where Wolverine stories, and not Punisher stories. IMO the only real Punisher story we have gotten on film is Punisher: Warzone.
Lions gate are cowards and didnt want to give us the punisher punching a polar bear is a quote i never expected.😅
I still think that he was done way better in DD S2 than in either of the seasons of his own show.
Agreed. Episode three (the rooftop episode where he's ties up "Daredevil" and is forcing him to question his own morality) isn't just a phenomenal adaptation of a very similar arc in the Punisher comics - it's maybe the best single piece of Punisher media
13:11 guests im a moron cuz damn this looks good
First time I ever saw the punisher was in the 90s spiderman cartoon and since then I've become of big fan of the punisher my favorite comic storyline was welcome back Frank
"Welcome Back, Frank" is so great (and I love the subplot about the three of copycats - Mr Payback, Elite and The Holy)
Welcome Back Frank rules
very good retrospective. I had forgotten about Ma Gnucci. Ennis and his absurd characters. And you managed to summarize my thoughts on Netflix show: "... eeehhh"
I didn't know about the whole appropriation bs. But I think it was well explained by a couple of frames at 23:14
Yeah i wish they gave Thomas Jane another shot. Though i wouldn't mind a Jon Bernthal film.
The problem with people adapting the Garth Ennis stuff, comes from the fact that Ennis understands something about Frank that no one in adaption has. Frank Castle is not a good guy, he's not a hero. He's a serial killer who has been pointed in a somewhat constructive direction. He's like Dexter Morgan or Paul Kursey (Death Wish) who is really his spiritual father.
Frank Castle is not meant to be empathized with. He's not right in what he does, he's a lunatic on a prolonged killing spree. Ennis understands this about him. But no one else seems to and honestly that's kind of depressing. Like knowing some people genuinely think that Rorschach is a cool badass, and not a weird smelly hobo man with repugnant political and social views.
Nah ennis does that but he’s also someone with a very strong moral compass. He would never kill an innocent and there is a lot to be said that the Punisher was once willing to settle down and put his impulsives aside. And that’s what makes him so interesting is that unlike Dexter who will comprise his morals the Punisher would rather kill himself than do that. But at the same time Ennis also portrays him as an emotionally hollow man but it’s a balancing act
Ooooh sweet. The Punisher's my first and favourite comic-book character, to the point of inspiring me to become a comic artist. I'm glad to see you talking about him !
Run speaking, the top 3 (in my opinion) is :
3- Rucka and Checchetto
2- Aaron and Dillon
1- Every. Single. Ennis. Issue.
The 2004 punisher is the best one hands down, at least in my opinion. sure there are some imperfections with it, but overall nails the methodical nature while still showing that crushing brutality of Frank Castle. It also was a film that showed his more human side when it could. Making him more than a one dimensional mess
Thomas Jane is the best Punisher. He's let down by the questionable characters around him, the dodgy script, the lack of real budget and Travolta's underwhelming villain. But Jane brought a real understanding and humanity to the role. I only wish that he had a chance to reprise his role in a real sequel.
War Zone, however, is one of the all time so-bad-its-good films. It's a heaping helping of WTFness.
Ah, Converge. You've made me nostalgic for Jane Doe.
It is definitely the script writers all the actors who played Frank have something going for them but it’s the people behind the scenes pulling their punches. I haven’t seen the 1989 movie but I have seen the rest of them. Tom Jane acts like the punisher from the time. Ray Stevenson looks the part from the max comics. Then Jon Bernthal who gave us the heart wrench from his performance. My personal two favorites are Tom Jane and Jon Bernthal.
I doubt we'll see Frank any time soon on the big screen considering what Marvel and Jason Aaron just did to him. They could have just opted not to use him anymore, or retire him, but they dug his wire up, and humiliated him first. Jon Bernthal has said he'd never betray the character so we'll see how his second go as Frank goes. I liked him, but my favorite is Thomas Jane, followed by Ray Stevenson.
The Punisher Drains the Swamp! Plenty of positive kills there.
I just wanted to rewatch that show, This is Great!!Thank you!!👍
If you take it as a whole the Netflix punisher doesn’t work but that one hour where he waits in his lair and destroys everyone is the best version of Home Alone I’ve ever seen
I really liked Punisher 2004 as a kid, but I haven't seen it again since then
I feel like you didn't give Dolph Lindgren Punisher his due. He's very much a good punisher
Awesome punisher video like the take on anti heroes my favorite type of heroes. Thanks for bringing these 3 punisher movies back to my attention.
This is a great video which deserves far more views
The Jigsaw from Warzone looks great. The one from the Netflix show basically looks like he cut himself shaving.
The “Russian,” is actually Arnold Schwarzenegger’s stunt double for Conan, snd many movies in the 80’s. He was also a character in many of those movies.
If you're referring to the 2005 one, then that's Kevin Nash and it's not on his IMDB. He appears to have no stunt credits at all. Even if it's an oversight, Nash dials in ay 6'10", which isn't a good stand in for Arnold's 6'2".
putting the pun in punisher I see
The Pun-isher
Seeing John Pinette in the 2004 film is so awesome
13:28 hearing Pendelum desribed as frathouse crushed my heart 😆
Thomas Jane is still the greatest Punisher.
Stage diving at Converge is still bad ass. Did a few last week in fact, so I may yet love Punisher: War Zone
I think I’d like to see that part in the comics when Frank becomes a full on Angel of Vengeance. I’d also love love love, and this is a big ask, to hear your defense of Garth Ennis and his other work. I’m a huge fan of him and Steve Dillon, and I think I’d really just like to hear you talk about Preacher for as long as possible.
"Preacher" and "The Boys" seem like articulated and conscientious attempts to straddle the lines of poor taste and then subvert them in order to point out the fallibility of heroes and the corrupting force of power.
His edgy nonsense in "Punisher" just reeks of "Ha ha ha I am being horrible". A problem that reached its apex with the nonstop edgelord of "Crossed"
He's back and badder then ever
The baddest good man who is very bad
Disney's MCU Phase 7: Angel of Vengeance Punisher joins the Avengers. The movie is considered the high-water mark for Phase 7.
"They deserve . . . gun-ishment!" sones up the character to me. Can't get on board with Punisher at all. Liked him in second season of Daredevil but gave up on his own show when they used the Tom Waits song 'Hell Broke Luce' for a scene of him brutally killing some overly horrible villains. I was like, fuck sake, how can you hear that song and not recognise how ANTI-WAR it is?
The first episode is my favorite but using such an intense anti war song and a song about suicide is a good song for the character but not the scene to use it in. Maybe using it before he kills again and making it more of a sad unfortunate thing rather than a fuck yea moment.
Tomas Jane was awesome as the punisher just because the punisher is a comic book doesn't mean the story couldn't be rewritten or needs to be a formula
Daredevil season 2 was a perfect depiction of the character.
'punching a polar bear in the face' methinks the comic is not meant to be taken 100% seriously.
Thomas Jane is in no way intimidating and thus, is a terrible choice.
1 year later and I highly doubt this will be seen by anyone, but at around 18:30 you mentioned Frank's attitude and violence is nonstop.
I think that is intentionally done to indicate how the hell in his head is the same...nonstop and almost on the verge of being too much to allow him to function at all.
I just remember saying during one of the MANY re-watches (on both platforms) thinking "God, he doesn't even get a single fucking moment's peace, does he??"
You're totally right. His mind is just shattered glass at this point
i love your fuckin videos my boi.
Thank you very very much
@@inframeout your underrated boi can I get your opinion on the teddy Perkins ep from Atlanta im just wondering. 😊
I still need to watch "Atlanta" - I've been waiting for it to finish up so I can watch it all
@@inframeout it’s finished season 4 is the last season it’s done. But if you’ll do a video on it I’ll cry I feel like you would have a different opinion.
Interesting topic definitely hope you explore doing more why this didn't work out and explore why type videos
For me, The Punisher series suffers heavily from a single problem that nobody talks often about. This is a problem that you notice as well in most male or female lead revenge stories. Which is that most of these revenge tales suffer from something I’ll refer to as “the Death Wish problem”.
For those unfamiliar, Death Wish is a 1974 action film starring Charles Bronson as Paul Kersey, a Manhattan architect who after his wife and daughter are brutally raped and beaten (His wife dead from the whole tragedy.), becomes a vigilante. The movie at the time was controversial at the time of its release, due to its apparent “romanticism of vigilante justice”. However during the 1970s, the country, particularly NYC, was seeing a massive influx of violent crime and people were becoming fearful over the chaos that was spreading throughout the community. Because of this Death Wish, despite its lack of condemnation of vigilantism, was at the time, rather well received by audiences. As it was said to have captured the zeitgeist of the era and served as a means of catharsis for many Americans who were dealing with frustration over the nation’s skyrocketing crime rates. Therefore, Death Wish has cemented its place in pop culture today, and is looked back upon by most filmgoers as a somewhat decent movie of the “action revenge-genre”.
Well…. except for author/screenwriter Brian Garfield of the 1972 novel that Death Wish adapted from. Garfield was appalled by the film for his lack of castigation of vigilantism. Something that his novel goes to GREAT length to portray as something that not only fails to help with your trauma, but also only leads to more bloodshed. He was so irate at the film his novel was made into, that he released a sequel called Death Sentence about a year later. The novel was considered as a form of penance, for the film version of the story. Which emphasizes how much of a complete mess Paul is after attaining vengeance, and still cannot be at peace with what he’s done.
So if you put both Death Wish (1974 film) and Death Sentence (1975 novel) side-by side, you’ll see the two major types of revenge narratives that exist in entertainment today. One hand gives us tales like the 1974 film, where the protagonist pursues justice/vengeance on their own terms, but the violence that gets dishes out is viewed as almost completely cathartic, without any deeper examinations of the moral implications of said-violence. Basically, “DON’T QUESTION THE MOVIE. Just watch and be entertained by the lead character beating, stabbing or shooting people and blowing stuff up.” (Examples are Payback, Kill Bill, and The Brave One.). On the other hand, are tales like the 1975 novel, where the protagonist’s pursuit of vengeance is set up as a futile endeavor that only leads to the moral degradation of the protagonist, with the protagonist either seeing the error of their ways by the climax of the any particular story or deciding not to, continue pursuing their vengeance, all the way to an early grave. Ending with them becoming their own worst enemy. (Examples are Unforgiven, Oldboy (2003), and Blue Ruin.)
Now I personally prefer the latter type of narrative, as I find them to be more thematically interesting and mature. But that’s not to say that one type is better than the other. There are noteworthy films on both sides of the spectrum. The problem when it comes to Frank Castle in the Daredevil/Punisher shows is that the creators switch from one type of narrative to the other. Where halfway throughout, we see the trauma that Frank goes through and what it does to him, but then halfway, these moments never usually get brought up again, as the second half sees him just loading up with his weapons and getting ready to kill some people and have his vengeance, which usually sees him almost succeeding in a near perfect manner, instead of causing a few screw ups that may lead to them making a difficult choice. And even if we do see this happen, it’s never brought up in the show again, nor looks like it has any affect on how Frank’s vigilante choices are being made.
From what I get from the show, it seems like the creators want to have their cake and eat it too. But in doing so, they fail to portray their characters’ traumas in a nuanced and mature way, by showing the true impact that such a trauma can have on someone. You’ll see a lot of show creators or filmmakers who have little to no interest in exploring the effects of trauma in any shape or form. They simply used it as a device to heighten emotional investment that we (the audience) would have, to see such a protagonist basically go full kill-mode on such dirtbags, like any comic book hero. Considering even what such people did to the character, while seeing Frank attain his vengeance is satisfying, you do need to display a sense of flaws in how he's going to go about taking on such a plan. But it never happens, which leads to another problem.
Because we as an audience get so obsessed over action or superhero movies where the lead suffers a certain trauma before or during their story, we are conditioned to see them be the hero by the end. Until you actually take some time to THINK ABOUT IT FOR A MINUTE. While probably not a direct inspiration, many can say that Frank is basically what would happen if Spider-Man or Batman chose to cause bloodshed within their vengeance, after seeing the trauma of their loved ones killed. However, the reason Frank Castle in the comics worked so well is because he's suppose to be characterized as someone who's a total moral absolutist, even showing some misanthropic beliefs (Even if he claims otherwise.). To him, there are good guys and bad guys, and he's suppose to be a good guy, right? But then why in his first introduction in the comics, he's viewed as a bad guy? Well, it's complicated.
Because Frank's moral compass isn't all that sound given his past. He is shown to speak ill of his environment, especially considering how violent crime is seen to be a problem in the city. But he never holds, nor does he ever express any bigoted beliefs for those arguing against his character (Although some interpretations say otherwise.). But based on his general misanthropy his distaste for the urban decay of the city, it may lead to how some should question their view of him. So in hindsight, both the creators and audiences who have long read the comics of his character have it wrong, in questioning to whether he was always meant to be portrayed as a toxic evil man, or claiming him to be the undisputed hero. As there no question that his character is pretty much a sociopath, suffering from many severe mental disorders, AND HE NEEDS HELP. To quote comic writer Alan Moore:
"I thought about superhero types like Batman, so I thought, ‘What would he be like in the real world?’. And if you’re a revenge-driven vigilante, you’re not quite right in the head. Yeah, alright, your parents got killed when you were a kid, that’s upsetting. But for most of us, if our parents were killed when we were little, we would not become a bat-themed costumed vigilante-that’s a bit mental."
And that's why I believe The Punisher show failed. As it could have been a chance to take a character and explore so much more into a complex narrative. To make a comic book character be the complete opposite of traditional heroes or villains, and make Frank Castle, who was driven by a traumatic experience that he adopts a whole new persona that is fueled by revenge, and try to display what really happens to them as he does so: Being severely mentally disturbed with their moral code being warped and twisted based on the exact nature of severe traumatic experiences he's endured.
I think Netflix got him wrong on purpose to make him more sympathetic.
punisher warzone is the best boondock saints movie ever made and somehow it took me till today to realize that it stars the bad guy from RRR
YUP. Ray Stevenson has the market cornered on "Beefy dudes who look like they want to murder an entire country"
I love the pun title
I love all 3 Franks. I don’t personally think I have one I prefer. Janes voice and look was magnificent, Steven’s was literally the most comic book accurate looking at least and he acted his ass off and bernthal I have problems with the story for sure but he played it so raw, and his mil spec look is by far my favorite especially with his head shaved like daredevil or season 1. They all did great. If not for Ray Steven’s passing I’d love to see a “no way home” style punisher film lol. Oh crap I completely forgot lugdren lmfao, his is not terrible but by far the worst, no skull and his voice always bothered me, sounded like a drunk rocky lol
Great video. Been a big fan of Punisher since freshman year of high school but a lot of the association with the skull over the recent years has had me seriously considering a rebranding a name Ive used since 2008. I stay current with the mainline comics and still love the character, but think he and his way of thinking needs to stay in fiction.
The devil on Kevin Feige's shoulder: C'mon Kevin, you know the adaptation they really want! You can have Blade, and Man-Thing! It's the one story everyone loves! DO FRANKENCASTLE
Kevin Feige trying to make a PG-13 adaptation of "Frankencastle";
'I have been defeated'
as much as i disagree with you (i loved the netflix show, and i preferred season 1 over season 2, don’t @ me) i still really enjoyed this video!
watching the show and reading a little more into his character, i can see with what intentions he was created. but in the 50 years since, society has changed a lot and i would love to see the next season or show created about the punisher reflect on those changes. i‘d love to see an even more deranged and brutal version with an even more in your face message about why he is an ANTIhero and not just a hero. i feel like the producers often water down the satire he is to not risk any controversy and it’s sad.
2004 Punisher is my favorite.
I think the Punisher is best as a supporting character, not has a main character. I love when other characters measure their ethics against his.
*In certain extreme situations, the law is inadequate. In order to shame its inadequacy, it is necessary to act outside the law. To pursue... natural justice. This is not vengeance. Revenge is not a valid motive, it's an emotional response. No. Not vengeance. Punishment.*
That speech rules and it's perfectly delivered by Thomas Jane
The perfect non-comic Punisher property is hands-down Punisher '66.
Did you check out Moon Tooth yet?
I always look forward to your simpsons inserts
At this point it's a very daft trademark, and I'll never change!
Maybe The Punisher works bear under a satirical framework instead of a self seriously anti hero or maybe a mixture of the two. In my mind Punisher is a character built on extremes but cynical extremes and not altruistic extremes.
Another great video. Thanks.
You're more than welcome!
It's not my favourite, but the Dolph Lundgren was fun for me on a stylistic level. I enjoyed the weird intro, the cheap-as-fuck but striking sets, etc.
Great video. Can't wait for a truly great Punisher movie or TV show
Another candidate to club "comics are soo much better pls read comics" featuring Thor Good killer plus Ragnarok, Vision, Moon knight Ellis and Lemire run ....and soo much more" (I am curious if we ever will get Immortal Hulk)
I loved warzone and the 89 movie I have always liked, the other movie I didn't like but the Netflix show came so close but dropped the ball with jigsaw and the supporting characters
somehow i've been in your community for this long without realizing you're into comics lol. Have you read The Immortal Hulk run, written by Al Ewing and Joe Bennett? Some of the most leftist themes I've seen packaged into a comic, and it's also just a really great story to boot with some awesome body horror elements
I haven't, but I will get on it asap!
Isn't the massacred family plot device just a vile cliche.
I really like the Punisher 89, way better than the Jane's one.
Thats So Reagan. Lmao
The thing about The Punisher is he is completely incapable of seeing anything outside of black and white. He treats everything like if it either does or doesn't need to be nuked. I really have no clue why the rest of the Marvel heroes put up with besides needed someone to deal with freaks like Jigsaw.
I liked all the Punisher films, even with their various flaws. I thought his stuff in the Daredevil series was compelling. His own Netflix show was ok. The first season tried dealing with the topic of mass shooters and even had a scene with a debate from both sides of the gun debate but nobody watches Punisher stuff for disputation. I only watched the first episode of the second season.
My 2 cents:
1) I think the Lundgren '89 version is a bit underrated. Yes, it's '80s cheese, but the psychotic feel he provided is closer to the darkness of the comic book.
2) Hated the 2004 Jane one. He looks like a celebrity cosplaying the Punisher for Heidi Klum's Halloween bash. Too "pretty boy" Hollywood, and his "strutting" looks so contrived. Also - setting it in Florida (I think?) was a TERRIBLE move, because in the comics, NYC itself is a character, so to speak. Moving it elsewhere diminished the mythos significantly.
Punisher isnt a right wing power fantasy, its genuinely people like you spouting that, thats the reason marvel have absolutely torched everything punisher related and replaced him with a "safe" version.
Why the fuck do you think the punisher is "the perfect candidate for political debate"? Hes an angry dude who kills criminals cuz he wants to avenge his family, but really he just likes it. How the hell SHOULD this guy be politicized????
I'd love for them to end the new disney series with a comic civil war nod and have a "real" superhero kick his ass and call him a murderous piece of trash like Capt America did 😅
We need to use AI to cast Charles Bronson in the next one
Ai was the worst thing us as crappy life forms have ever produced
@@codm22712 true.
Finally some love for Tom Jane's performance!
That man should have been a A-list star and it's a GODDAMN CRIME he isn't
Thomas Jane absolutely kills it (no pun intended) as Frank Castle and for the record stage diving at a Converge show is still pretty badass
Really? I found him incredibly dull and one-note. Robocop had more emotion. Frankenstein's monster isn't that stiff.
Charles Bronson was the original Punisher
"Death Wish 3" is the best Punisher film
A Brass Eye reference and an RLM reference in one video? It's Christmas come early/late!
Jon Bernthal show was great in my opinion. Utterly loved his portrayal and the show was very dark, just how I like it. I liked the Thomas Jayne movie as well, had pretty much everything I expected from The Punnisher movie of that era. Was not fan of War Zone but I can see how people can enjoy it.
I think Bernthal was absolutely tremendous in the role, and can only hope he'll get given a hard R-rated shot at continuing the character
You had me and lost me.
@inframeout what makes barracuda a racist depiction?
Punisher 1989 was my favorite and followed the comics well. The skull teeshirt is a big white bullseye and is the dumbest thing for a covert killer to wear.
It had great scenes and really fit Frank as a depressed man out for revenge.
2001 punisher only had a great short film. The movie itself sucked butt.
Not until the Netflix series was there anything worth watching.
Best punisher in order Dolph, Ray Stevenson, then TV series and we don't mention Tomas Jane as he's was terrible
Hi
I honestly feel that the Punisher works best in contrast. A lot of my favourite moments from the comics are when his brutal ethos clashes with characters like Daredevil, Spider-Man or Captain America.
I feel another way Netflix could have made Defenders a compelling show would have been if they had thrown punisher in the mix. That show needed more character conflict (And Frank would have butted heads with everyone on that team in different ways) and a more distinct variety of styles to the fight scenes (defenders ended up with a bland mix of two agile fighters and two powerhouses punching guys in suits. Throwing the punisher in would have added guns and knives into the mix perhaps spicing things up )
I can just imagine the intriguing changes to the big defenders fight scenes with the others not only having to fight off the hand ninjas but constantly trying to reign in the Punisher who is shooting and slicing his way through the enemies. Itd be like a game of pass the parcel where they each have a moment where they react to the Punishers bloodlust and respond in their own ways using their abilities or skills to block him from killing someone. Maybe some of them dont even bother because of their own views raising the question of which defenders are the most and least aligned to his world view.
Punisher Max kinda disproves this
The Netflix adaptation was so dour.
The Thomas Jane Punisher was WEAK! Dolph Lundgren IS The Punisher!
14:56 tell us you've never read a story with Jigsaw without saying you've never read a story with Jigsaw.
Or a pre-Ennis Punisher comic.
"War Zone", despite the schlock is a great movie in as so far as it's accuracy to the older runs and that it fills the same niche as the original "RoboCop".
You cannot judge splatter-action like Shakespeare, thats like judging hockey like it was figure skating
Why are you acting like I hated the film when I categorically state how much I like it...I'm extremely positive about "War Zone" and love the splatter?! I say all that in the video. I also have literally every single TPB of The Punisher from the 80s until 2021.
In my opinion, season 1 of The Punisher was amazing, but the 2nd season was trash.
0:45 Disliked the video here
You do realize that the creators of Dredd made him as a satire of jackboot fascists, right? Like - google, wiki, TH-cam any writing on that character by anyone involved in his creation
@@inframeout Just like the Starship Troopers movie, the creators failed in their pathetic attempt of "satire"
No. No they didn't. You're just an uptight little bootlicker ❤@ΒασιληςΛυπηριδης-φ4κ
@@ΒασιληςΛυπηριδης-φ4κbetter luck next time trying to cling to a delusional opinion based in retardation
The irony of injecting your political bias whilst talking about the character in question as a Rorschach test isn't lost on me, but it seems to be lost on you.
Wait - how is "Don't kill, hurt or intimidate people under the guise of a comic book symbol" a political statement?! Isn't that just common sense - and that's before we get into the fact that the people misappropriating the Punisher are acting in complete opposition of what the character and it's creators are intended for?
Yeah we already have a ton of woke characters. Can we not get a hardened old school character that is anti woke. He would sell tickets thats for sure