Nice to hear London welsh being mentioned. Where i grew up, played rugby, worked at the bar. They are doing well and have gained 4 promotions in 4 seasons and things are looking good once again. We will soon be in the national leagues if things remain even close to how they are on the pitch. Very exiting times, hope wasps/worcester dont have to go through the same
Never nice hearing clubs go under, especially ones with such a rich heritage that serves communities well. Let's hope Welsh, Wasps and Warriors all make comebacks in the coming seasons!
@@catch22rugby well said. And yes, its funny whenever I mention to mates about the calibre of players who played for london welsh whether that be a few decades ago or in the final years. Some absolutely incredible players and, if im not mistaken, the club to have the most ever lions players in a series was London welsh in 1971 with 7 including captain John Dawes. And some argue this was one of if not the best lions tour with this being the only ever lions squad to win a series in new zealand. Bit of trivia for you😂
My club 😭😭😭😭 it takes me over 3 hours to get there and over £80 on a single game ticket and train tickets just to get there. But I still went as often as I could. Just so depressing and demoralising.
This! It's fans like you who I feel most sorry for. After all you've been through to follow your team, it sucks to potentially see it end like this. Thoughts are with you 💚
@@catch22rugby thank you for your sympathy and insight. I just wish the club could have been a bit more open and honest with us. There has been close to no information for a while. The fact im gaining for insight through your video than directly from wasps says it all. The RFU are an embarrassment standing by and watching this happen whilst they pay england players £20K plus per game each. I dunno.. whole system seems rotten.
@@Camerooonify Took a bit of digging to find the info but got there in the end. Glad we could provide a service! You're not the only one upset with the Unions - just ask any Welshman about the WRU higher ups...
Feel sorry for you but they were never welcome in Coventry, the city already has a rugby club which isn’t followed very well. Most people follow the saints or tigers and the animosity from The football fans who’s ground they essentially stole will never go away
Writing was on the wall leaving London they lost so many supporters myself included. Not many can afford endless travel . Quinn’s supporter now but very sad news to hear
@@catch22rugby , The oval ball doesn't bounce true. When any sport becomes overly influenced by money speculators...always downward. Wait and see what happens at the national level in the home nations. Same in football. The same in the economy.
Having taken my minis & youth teams to Twyford Avenue many many times over the years - pre- & post-move, I’m astounded that a) anyone thought the Coventry jaunt was a good idea (no-one in the amateur club I spoke to did!) and b) that it’s taken quite so long to spectacularly unravel. I have connections in the W.Midlands and Wasps is generally seen - despite the strident PR - as unwelcome interlopers whom only the glory-hounds supported, real rugby people preferring to stick with their historical allegiances. One element in both the Wasps & Warriors stories that seems to be being conveniently ignored is the role of HMRC in precipitating the collapse by applying for Winding Up orders - HMRC is frequently the cause of collapse of businesses where the underlying enterprise is viable but which has short-term cashflow problems. They seem to believe they are entitled to aggressively pursue a business without regard to the bigger picture, which - whilst technically & legally true - fails to consider the knock-on impacts. Is this to do with performance-related bonuses within HMRC?
@@ccahill2322 I’m not certain this is wholly true (although I totally agree with the underlying sentiments). Whilst Nigel Wray has been pilloried for the Saracens debacle, Tony Rowe’s input at Chiefs has been lauded, despite that situation being not without its risks! But Wray has provided a long term stability that is largely unmatched in the Premiership. So many clubs are in a similarly parlous position to Wasps/Worcester, reliant on the wealth of individuals and still haemorrhaging from Covid damage, that this is unlikely to be the final word! Serious reconsideration of rugby’s financial model, particularly the wage bills, needs to be undertaken. Seems to me my team, Quins, has got it about right with an ownership & funding structure where individual influence is curtailed and the rugby is massively entertaining - although there was a period when I seriously considered not renewing our season tickets!
@@n.j.r.fisher4257 , thank you for your opinion. I have come to the view I expressed by looking at the problem which underlies the other "problems." The same occurs in every country which has enthusiastically taken to "super professionalism" --first American billionaires of dubious business ethics, then pseudo "Russian" billionaires who acquired their wealth by dodgy means, then various "venture" vulture capitalists who must profit as the number one goal. The economies of all western countries have been run the same way and you can now see the result--or I should say one will see it more clearly over the coming year. It will not be nice and likely much worse than the last financial crash in 2007/8. Sorry if it sounds "negative" but it is inevitable because miracles do not happen often.
@@catch22rugby And make it even more painful for the og fans because not only have we had to watch our club die, we've been to far away to be able to help
Not keen on clubs relocating - pretty savage on the loyal fans. Still a shame to see Wasps in this scenario. Who knows if administration could result in them returning to London...
@@manchesterunitedforever4264 For sure they had to leave Adams Park... but could they have found a location a little closer to their original roots in London? London Irish managed a temporary compromise in Reading so could you argue Wasps could've looked at something similar. Think higher ups were attracted by the lure of the Ricoh and put that ahead of their previous fan base. Coventry may have loved the decision and Wasps have done they're best to satisfy a new community, but the old one will surely feel hard-done-by
you were never ditched mate you just support a team which could not find a financially viable way to stay in London. What’s interesting is how easily some people switched alliances and stopped supporting the team...
Can you do another video on this please. Wasps are moving to Solihull. But what does that mean? Will they be there for a year? For two years? Then where? Why should anyone trust or support Wasps?
I used to be a Wasps fan but stopped after the move to Coventry I now follow London Irish. Rugby doesn't need to have squad sizes of over 40 players and the players are played too much.
Must have been a tough situation for you Tomo - couldn't imagine my team just uprooting like that. With the current schedule, squads need to be larger otherwise you face players getting injured or burnt out. If you can reduce the amount of games then squads can decrease... however, less games means less match day income and less TV deal cash... (ironic coming from us!) but it's certainly a Catch 22 situation
not a fan then, I followed them and travel to games, even when I lived in West then North Oxfordshire. I had to stop going when I moved to Brum, and a young family. As soon as my daughter was old enough to go to Cov with me we have been season ticket holders.
The move to the West Midlands was suicide, cost them a lot of players and fans to move to a stadium they would not fill. Crazy move which has ended in disaster.
That ground was always a white elephant. If they'd spent £35m building a proper rugby ground holding 15k somewhat closer to Wycombe/London, then the matchday experience would have been totally different and so would the credibility of the venture. Buying the Ricoh, a 32k stadium complex with additional income streams that cost a lot more to build and should have been valued at far more, was an act borne of desperation and opportunism. It is to put it simply, a shit stadium for rugby. I went a couple of times to watch them play Northampton. Roomier seats, excellent view, all the food and drink outlets in the warm and dry... and I still wouldn't swap the Franklin's Gardens infrastructure brick for brick for the Ricoh for all the tea in China. Feels like a football ground because it is and doesn't have much of an atmosphere at all for rugby. Some wag on a Tigers page branded them "the Coventry Cuckoos" when they landed and it stuck. They tried to call their games with Saints and Tigers "a derby" but there is only one Midlands Derby in top flight rugby, the East Midlands one between us. I'm sorry for the genuine fans of Wasps wherever they started watching them but it was always a doomed experiment. Franshise sport isn't what the British consumer wants.
@@rugbycrossbar2720 I guess London Irish's situation is what Wasps would be facing if they hadn't moved to Coventry, and stayed around London instead, waiting for a suitable stadium to become available. I do think Wasps would be getting bigger attendances though.
The rugby activities, if I remember, were internationals and Olympics not Wasps games, however Wasps signed up to be responsible and maintain the ground which was an impossible task when they were so desperate to make extra money from the stadium
You are correct Paul! With quite a lot of information being thrown into this video, we put all the extras like the 7s and Commonwealth under "rugby activities" to keep things streamlined 👍
My understanding (from press reports) is that Coventry City FC were fully aware of what was planned for the stadium and were supportive (or at worst, accepting) of this as it ensured summer income that would sustain the stadium for the benefit of all. They then failed to make alternative arrangements to honour their match commitments and blamed Wasps for this failure. Seem to me they made the situation worse by then going public about it!
The Premier business plan is the root cause of this there's talk of using a business plan based on the French system which allows clubs to spend only a certain percentage of their projective incomes for that season which in theory would stop clubs going bankrupt. Sadly too late for Worcester and Wasps but it looks like the French system is the way to go.
Sad to see Wasps in Administration, but.. going from a near-bust tenant at Wycombe to taking on ownership of the biggest club rugby ground in the country, with associated exhibition hall and hotel made me think; what expertise have they got in this area? I saw them play three times at the Ricoh, very enjoyable but I think in hindsight, I was one of very few paying full price for the tickets. When they hardened-up the prices the support level went down to a few thousand. I am so sad that RU cannot generate support anything like what football can, but over-reaching can cost you dear.
I think loyalty and locality gave way for blind ambition. Might have looked like an attractive package but the hard-core fans were put below the dream of a financial complex in Coventry
And to think so many deals in the 80s were under the table affairs... as the old quote went "What's the difference between League and Union... League players pay taxes" 😐
Appreciate you're disliking towards Wasps themselves, but spare a thought for all the hard working staff who've just lost their jobs. Receptionists, cleaners, marketing interns etc
No shit, English football is a money laundering enterprise, and status symbol for rich Saudis or rich Americans. I'm glad rugby doesn't have that. It's the TV deals (which is a complete joke, especially compared to football) and the rugby fans that need to generate clubs more money. Or clubs just have to stop paying players such big bucks.
@Edit name couldn't agree more... unfortunately it's not as simple as shipping out the old guard and replacing them. Many will be reluctant to give up their spots. Entitlement and delusion runs deep
@@galinor7 I mean it’s because they can owners are so much richer,tv revenue is so much higher and is more global. A lot of teams don’t loose money but the ones that do can afford it.
It is starting to look as though virtually every Premiership club is really struggling financially. The loss of Wasp & Worcester could be the start of a domino effect. Some of the losses are definitely Covid related but the reality is simple, the game does not generate enough income. Most of the Premiership clubs at best have income equivalent to a club at the bottom of the English football championship or top of League 1 and like those football equivalents depend on a sugar daddy to survive. IMO survival requires some radical rethinking. For player safety and longevity we need fewer games but financial survival requires more games or the same number of games but with bigger crowds, bigger sponsorship etc. IMO one long term plan with a chance of working is to merge the English Premiership and United Rugby Championship - and that does mean some long standing teams will need to merge. Newcastle Falcons need a league that includes derby games against Edinburgh and Glasgow, Gloucester really needs derbies against Cardiff or Ospreys etc.
Finances aren't healthy across the UK. I'd go far to say that League 1 would be more akin to rugby these days. For example Ospreys get around £6m a year on their budget, compared to around £20m (ish) at Swansea City who, by their own admission, are a lower third Championship team when it comes to money
Any time a franchise fails I open a bottle of Cava,although as I open a bottle every evening no one knows why I am smiling and not my usual grumpy self.As far as union,other sports and normal folks go my advice is simple,be careful with how much you send if you can't affored someone's wages or a skiing holiday then don't spend the money.
As a Rugger overseas, this, Warriors and the very low attendance of the League WC is concerning for me. Even our regional league has had a lot of cancelation of matches due to low numbers and funding 😭
Here's a thought - get rid of a load of overseas imports and sprinkle the Wasps players across other Prem teams. There are some great home-qualified players in there that England should do their utmost to keep playing top level rugby
A fine balance with overseas imports - they bring a standard that improves playing quality. If they all go - then the Prem quality deteriorates and the chasm between Prem and International becomes more daunting. Young players will be ill prepared for the jump in quality when England call ups come
This has got to be said. Wasps are in trouble because they have been spending beyond their means for decades. "Once a Wasp, always a Wasp" was the strapline. Easy when you drive a truckload of money up to their door. But where has that money come from? A tiny stadium in Wycombe, seldom filled? Wasp success has been built on the never never, and why is anyone surprised when the chickens come home to roost? I feel for the staff and fans, but many of them have had 20 years in the sunshine that they didn't deserve, while the rest of us struggle and have promising players poached by the likes of Waps. Difficult to find that sympathy.
It looks like many clubs have been spending beyond their means trying to keep up with the global market on players. Agreed some have been stretching their player budgets more than others. Something has to be done to bring club rugby finances into check.
@@catch22rugby I'm still not sure I believe it, but Newcastle, apparently turned a profit last year. Got thumped weekly but got thumped honestly. If a few clubs can keep their heads down and stay in business until the obvious profligacys meet their inevitable end, or bend to the realities of life, and begin to live sensibly, we may have a sustainable sport.
@@catch22rugby I heard £19 million all since covid. They owed around £10 million before to 2019 windfall. But the debt is with the owner,.guessing the existing assets would cover that.
As usual the commentator forgot to mention the elephant in the room! Wasps like many more clubs in England are paying vast amounts of money for overseas players coaches and agents and all but ignore one of the biggest player bases In the world in the championship, grass root and academy’s, and clubs like Leicester, London Irish sale NH field up to 11 non eqp players every game even though the rfu rules state no more than 2 non eqp players should be in the starting 15. Because it is fudged! Nearly every club in England is in huge debt because of it yet year on year each club fills it stating 15 with foreigners with some earning eye watering salaries, bristols piatau is the highest earner in England, at one million a year, how the hell does that work! Plus all roads for this debacle lead to the rfu, the organisation that set it up in the first place, so Until English rugby lives to its means expect more of this to happen
Hi Iain - on this occasion we felt that the foreign vs local debate alone was not a significant contributing factor for Wasps specifically. 79% of the Wasps squad are English and 86% are Home Nations players eligible for the Lions. While other clubs certainly have higher percentages of foreign talent - in Wasps case, they seem to have a rather large proportion of English talent
Exactly as Catch 22 noted it’s not the level of overseas players it’s the total incompetence of clubs to run their finances on a sustainable basis. Having expenses including loans or bonds, in excess of income is something a 10 year old could recognise as a seriously bad idea. Hoping for the next millionaire idiot off the rank is not a strategy.
As much as it was the owners' fault for allowing Wasps to spiral out of existence in its current form, the RFU and Premiership Rugby must also be called to account for not keeping governance of the situation. To trust a bunch of amateurs to govern what is essentially a professional game is a recipe for carnage - Will Carling was right all along, there are too many old farts running and ruining the game. Instead of shrinking the Premiership down to ten teams, it should revert to 12 teams, but there should also be greater co-operation with the Championship to allow other ambitious clubs to carry on daring to dream. As other commenters have mentioned the Top 14/Pro D2 model looks the best model to emulate. And just for the record, I happen to live a mere 15 minute walk away from the stadium. Officially, it's now called the Coventry Building Society Arena, but in many ways it will always be the Ricoh. I'm going to miss the weekly drunken stagger to and from the place (two micro-breweries in the immediate area, don't you know) - it'll have to be fortnightly now.
Couldn't agree more with the "old farts" line. Look at Welsh Rugby for example... they lost Amanda Blanc from their set-up (former CEO of Aviva and listed on Forbes 100 Most Powerful Women list) because they had Rob Butcher in charge... a retired Geography teacher and former Bargoed RFC committeeman 🤨Until the incompetent relinquish their hold, rugby will continue to fall behind other sports CBS Arena noted... but I still call the Swansea.com Stadium the Liberty 😜
When people ask why Salarycens breaking the salary cap and distorting the market matters; this is why. Clubs go under because they can't pay their debts which is largely because players are overpaid because cheats like Salarycens have artificially increased the pay players can demand
Saracens haven't helped but it's a global market. Many French teams prop up prices but if they're doing it sustainably then you can't blame them for doing it
@@catch22rugby I agree to an extent. But for players who want to stay in England the market was skewed by saracens complete disregard for the rules. Also, my understanding is the French sides are allowed to include equity investment as part of balancing the books every year, meaning it isn't necessarily sustainable. You also then have clubs like La Rochelle who simply use "sponsorship" deals with their owners to balance the books
No point keep making Sarries the villains, yes they broke the salary cap repeatedly and yes had a huge amount of success doing so, they were also the only premiership team able to properly compete in Europe for any prolonged period, they were not the only club to be cheating the salary cap either but as others didn’t do so well everyone conveniently forgets this, for the record I am a Wasps fan and I genuinely believe Sarries had little to no impact on the current situation, unfortunately the move was all wrong not welcomed to their new home by the local community many fans (myself included) unable to attend often etc.
@@catch22rugby , That is the problem. Globalism is THE con game--in everything. The sooner people look behind the curtain the sooner they may see the "Wizard of Oz" is a scam.
@@inBODwetrust13 , And there are/were no "sponsorship" deals at Leinster? Seems I remember "someone" sponsoring Jonathan Sexton so he returned from France. You are right about Saracens. But be careful of kettles and pots.
It’s just market economics, the two most financially unviable clubs have fallen because they spent beyond their means to maintain their position in the league.
Rugby in general needs proper leadership as we are losing too many historic clubs and the finances are a mess. Franchising to a non rugby area is just screwing the fans. So much young talent and development teams let down by this
Yes they should have been patient. They could have been playing at Brentford Community Stadium now, or at Plough Lane. They chose greedy ambition over loyalty to their fans.
So now apparently they are going to ground share with Worcester. All I would say to Worcester is be very very wary. Look what happened to Coventry football club who were effectively forced out for a number of seasons following a similar arrangement. Not to be trusted.
I am not sure about your take in the finances. I agree the Worcester's owners are a mess but taking on a 35 million debt that needs repairs in a lump sounds totally irresponsible based on rugby finances.
Don't get me wrong, it is a very risky move. It seems a more calculated move compared to the pure negligence at Worcester. Both outcomes are horrendous but Wasps looked like they had an ounce of due-diligence in comparison
Gutted for wasps. Amazing club that have done much for rugby in England. However, that idiot Dallaglio isn’t helping them with his “a special case should be made” nonsense.
Sad state for everyone involved. Dallaglio is going to do all he can to save his club but I can see why many aren't happy! Especially with Worcester in a similar situation
My first experience watching wasps was with James Haskell who is a fantastic rugby player, but when the club mistreated him and some of the other players by not paying them decently once James left the club so did my affiliation but it’s still sad to see a club with this much history get relegated
Not too aware of the funding models in England but I'd guess that it's due to too many clubs being in the top flight. If you have to bail one out, you'd have to do the same for all of them if that happened? Would hit the RFU coffers heavily I would imagine
They spent too much money and went bust. Simple. You cut your cloth accordingly. English fans have made fun of the lack of success in the Welsh regions. They have had to pay pay that success. Two Saesneg clubs are now paying the consequences.
Would've been a pretty short video of we just said that 😅 the Welsh Regions aren't exactly in the greatest situation right now... only takes one change of heart from the WRU and all 4 will go bust
@@catch22rugby they should not be forgiven. They cannot be trusted. They have moved to Solihull now but why should anyone in Solihull support them. Where will they move next? Who knows.
This is becoming a farce. Who’s next? Anyone want to own up to how cheating financially for years has affected all the clubs, or shall we just blame each individual club each time this happens? What’s happening to our game? Does anyone really care? Anyone? About the whole system?
We truly agree that something monumental has to change. What that change is, not too sure. There are so many smart and intelligent people who probably have the answers but it seems that those in ivory towers are reluctant to impose sweeping reforms that could uproot their positions in the "boys clubs"...
Rugby loyalties aside - think about the local staff members. Celebrating the redundancies of many hard work people (include those on minimum wage) isn't something to be happy about
@@catch22rugby shame on the club for paying minimum wage ! Also they didn’t give a shite about local staff we they relocated to Coventry. Good riddance
not by you idiot chav footie fans. Here's some TRUTH for you. I worked at the Stadium when the Chavs owners stopped paying the rent on the lease, threw their toys out the pram and moved them to NORTHAMPTON. The Chav's owners then swore never to return to the CBS arena, sued and lost every single court case. Tried bullying a local charity. The list goings on. Try blaming the right people, that'd be the spivs that own the football club
Nice to hear London welsh being mentioned. Where i grew up, played rugby, worked at the bar. They are doing well and have gained 4 promotions in 4 seasons and things are looking good once again. We will soon be in the national leagues if things remain even close to how they are on the pitch. Very exiting times, hope wasps/worcester dont have to go through the same
Never nice hearing clubs go under, especially ones with such a rich heritage that serves communities well. Let's hope Welsh, Wasps and Warriors all make comebacks in the coming seasons!
@@catch22rugby well said. And yes, its funny whenever I mention to mates about the calibre of players who played for london welsh whether that be a few decades ago or in the final years. Some absolutely incredible players and, if im not mistaken, the club to have the most ever lions players in a series was London welsh in 1971 with 7 including captain John Dawes. And some argue this was one of if not the best lions tour with this being the only ever lions squad to win a series in new zealand. Bit of trivia for you😂
@@James-rc6qq A tour that also included Merv the Swerve... Glad London Welsh got to witness such a magnificent set of sideburns 😁
My club 😭😭😭😭 it takes me over 3 hours to get there and over £80 on a single game ticket and train tickets just to get there. But I still went as often as I could. Just so depressing and demoralising.
This! It's fans like you who I feel most sorry for. After all you've been through to follow your team, it sucks to potentially see it end like this. Thoughts are with you 💚
@@catch22rugby thank you for your sympathy and insight. I just wish the club could have been a bit more open and honest with us. There has been close to no information for a while. The fact im gaining for insight through your video than directly from wasps says it all. The RFU are an embarrassment standing by and watching this happen whilst they pay england players £20K plus per game each. I dunno.. whole system seems rotten.
@@Camerooonify Took a bit of digging to find the info but got there in the end. Glad we could provide a service!
You're not the only one upset with the Unions - just ask any Welshman about the WRU higher ups...
@@catch22rugby, someone back in the day called them ‘old farts’, I would never……
Feel sorry for you but they were never welcome in Coventry, the city already has a rugby club which isn’t followed very well. Most people follow the saints or tigers and the animosity from
The football fans who’s ground they essentially stole will never go away
Thoughts and best wishes to everyone at Wasps. You will be sorely missed. Tigers fan.
Absolutely gutted that it’s happened to another team. Hopefully all other clubs (players & staff) will be safe
Fingers crossed. Compared to Worcester, the situation seems more salvageable but who knows when it comes to big business
@@catch22rugby yeah it’s nuts. I’m down in Penzance and it’s annoying Pirates can’t sort out their stadium and push for premiership
@@UniQuEJoKerZ Comes down to the same old problem - no money 😥 Would be cool to see a Cornish team up in the Prem one day!
Unfortunately London Irish are on the rack as well. They are heading towards the ice berg and it’s only a matter of time
@@Nightstalker321 an all too reoccurring theme... something has to be done to steady the ship in club rugby
Writing was on the wall leaving London they lost so many supporters myself included. Not many can afford endless travel . Quinn’s supporter now but very sad news to hear
It such a sad state of affairs - hoping they can bounce back
@@catch22rugby , The oval ball doesn't bounce true. When any sport becomes overly influenced by money speculators...always downward. Wait and see what happens at the national level in the home nations. Same in football. The same in the economy.
Having taken my minis & youth teams to Twyford Avenue many many times over the years - pre- & post-move, I’m astounded that a) anyone thought the Coventry jaunt was a good idea (no-one in the amateur club I spoke to did!) and b) that it’s taken quite so long to spectacularly unravel. I have connections in the W.Midlands and Wasps is generally seen - despite the strident PR - as unwelcome interlopers whom only the glory-hounds supported, real rugby people preferring to stick with their historical allegiances. One element in both the Wasps & Warriors stories that seems to be being conveniently ignored is the role of HMRC in precipitating the collapse by applying for Winding Up orders - HMRC is frequently the cause of collapse of businesses where the underlying enterprise is viable but which has short-term cashflow problems. They seem to believe they are entitled to aggressively pursue a business without regard to the bigger picture, which - whilst technically & legally true - fails to consider the knock-on impacts. Is this to do with performance-related bonuses within HMRC?
@@ccahill2322 I’m not certain this is wholly true (although I totally agree with the underlying sentiments). Whilst Nigel Wray has been pilloried for the Saracens debacle, Tony Rowe’s input at Chiefs has been lauded, despite that situation being not without its risks! But Wray has provided a long term stability that is largely unmatched in the Premiership. So many clubs are in a similarly parlous position to Wasps/Worcester, reliant on the wealth of individuals and still haemorrhaging from Covid damage, that this is unlikely to be the final word! Serious reconsideration of rugby’s financial model, particularly the wage bills, needs to be undertaken. Seems to me my team, Quins, has got it about right with an ownership & funding structure where individual influence is curtailed and the rugby is massively entertaining - although there was a period when I seriously considered not renewing our season tickets!
@@n.j.r.fisher4257 , thank you for your opinion. I have come to the view I expressed by looking at the problem which underlies the other "problems." The same occurs in every country which has enthusiastically taken to "super professionalism" --first American billionaires of dubious business ethics, then pseudo "Russian" billionaires who acquired their wealth by dodgy means, then various "venture" vulture capitalists who must profit as the number one goal. The economies of all western countries have been run the same way and you can now see the result--or I should say one will see it more clearly over the coming year. It will not be nice and likely much worse than the last financial crash in 2007/8. Sorry if it sounds "negative" but it is inevitable because miracles do not happen often.
Vincent Koch is one unlucky dude. Happened to him at Saracens. Again at Wasps.
Lightening strikes twice! Unlucky indeed 😑
Devastating news, hope for a quick resolution and thoughts with all the players and staff
Likewise - would be such a shame to see Wasps go under
When we left for Coventry in 2014, it didn't save us from our issues, it just delayed them and if anything made the issues 10x worse
You do fear all they did was kick it down the road by a decade or so 😔
@@catch22rugby And make it even more painful for the og fans because not only have we had to watch our club die, we've been to far away to be able to help
Thanks! that helped a lot. But sure they could have seen the iceberg from further away?
No, thank you! 😀 Yeah they had since 2016 to avoid the iceberg... while Wasps crashed at the helm, Worcester's bosses just walked away from the wheel
The way they ditched us London fans has me wanting to say serves them right…but sad given the history I have had with them over the years!
Not keen on clubs relocating - pretty savage on the loyal fans. Still a shame to see Wasps in this scenario. Who knows if administration could result in them returning to London...
@@catch22rugby they had to leave
@@manchesterunitedforever4264 For sure they had to leave Adams Park... but could they have found a location a little closer to their original roots in London? London Irish managed a temporary compromise in Reading so could you argue Wasps could've looked at something similar. Think higher ups were attracted by the lure of the Ricoh and put that ahead of their previous fan base.
Coventry may have loved the decision and Wasps have done they're best to satisfy a new community, but the old one will surely feel hard-done-by
@@catch22rugby they lost a lot of attendance from moving
you were never ditched mate you just support a team which could not find a financially viable way to stay in London. What’s interesting is how easily some people switched alliances and stopped supporting the team...
Great coverage of this, and great explanations 👌
Cheers Mezma - hope that this video makes things a little clearer!
Can you do another video on this please. Wasps are moving to Solihull. But what does that mean? Will they be there for a year? For two years? Then where? Why should anyone trust or support Wasps?
We will have to look into this as the months go on Chester
@@catch22rugby thank you. Look forward to that.
I used to be a Wasps fan but stopped after the move to Coventry I now follow London Irish. Rugby doesn't need to have squad sizes of over 40 players and the players are played too much.
Must have been a tough situation for you Tomo - couldn't imagine my team just uprooting like that.
With the current schedule, squads need to be larger otherwise you face players getting injured or burnt out. If you can reduce the amount of games then squads can decrease... however, less games means less match day income and less TV deal cash... (ironic coming from us!) but it's certainly a Catch 22 situation
not a fan then, I followed them and travel to games, even when I lived in West then North Oxfordshire. I had to stop going when I moved to Brum, and a young family. As soon as my daughter was old enough to go to Cov with me we have been season ticket holders.
Wasps is a London Club. It should never have left the Capital and go to Coventry
The move to the West Midlands was suicide, cost them a lot of players and fans to move to a stadium they would not fill. Crazy move which has ended in disaster.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing!
I LOVE❤ our Wasps and Club💯%😥😥 Standing with my Wasps RFC Club and Family🐝🐝🐝
The guys here at Catch 22 Rugby are keeping our fingers crossed for you 🤞
@@catch22rugby Means a lot. God Bless ‘Catch 22 Rugby’ Guys🙏🏾🤝 Lot of Luv❣️🐝🤞
Good riddance London scum
That ground was always a white elephant. If they'd spent £35m building a proper rugby ground holding 15k somewhat closer to Wycombe/London, then the matchday experience would have been totally different and so would the credibility of the venture. Buying the Ricoh, a 32k stadium complex with additional income streams that cost a lot more to build and should have been valued at far more, was an act borne of desperation and opportunism. It is to put it simply, a shit stadium for rugby. I went a couple of times to watch them play Northampton. Roomier seats, excellent view, all the food and drink outlets in the warm and dry... and I still wouldn't swap the Franklin's Gardens infrastructure brick for brick for the Ricoh for all the tea in China. Feels like a football ground because it is and doesn't have much of an atmosphere at all for rugby. Some wag on a Tigers page branded them "the Coventry Cuckoos" when they landed and it stuck. They tried to call their games with Saints and Tigers "a derby" but there is only one Midlands Derby in top flight rugby, the East Midlands one between us. I'm sorry for the genuine fans of Wasps wherever they started watching them but it was always a doomed experiment. Franshise sport isn't what the British consumer wants.
Sad time for rugby in The England. Good luck for Worcester and Wasps.
Hopefully English Rugby can get this sorted soon - too many clubs are making loses
@@catch22rugby next London Irish. 😔
@@rugbycrossbar2720 I guess London Irish's situation is what Wasps would be facing if they hadn't moved to Coventry, and stayed around London instead, waiting for a suitable stadium to become available. I do think Wasps would be getting bigger attendances though.
The rugby activities, if I remember, were internationals and Olympics not Wasps games, however Wasps signed up to be responsible and maintain the ground which was an impossible task when they were so desperate to make extra money from the stadium
You are correct Paul! With quite a lot of information being thrown into this video, we put all the extras like the 7s and Commonwealth under "rugby activities" to keep things streamlined 👍
My understanding (from press reports) is that Coventry City FC were fully aware of what was planned for the stadium and were supportive (or at worst, accepting) of this as it ensured summer income that would sustain the stadium for the benefit of all. They then failed to make alternative arrangements to honour their match commitments and blamed Wasps for this failure. Seem to me they made the situation worse by then going public about it!
The Premier business plan is the root cause of this there's talk of using a business plan based on the French system which allows clubs to spend only a certain percentage of their projective incomes for that season which in theory would stop clubs going bankrupt.
Sadly too late for Worcester and Wasps but it looks like the French system is the way to go.
On the surface it looks like the optimal model but I'm not an expert on TOP 14 Rugby so would need to look deeper for any flaws in the French system
Sad to see Wasps in Administration, but.. going from a near-bust tenant at Wycombe to taking on ownership of the biggest club rugby ground in the country, with associated exhibition hall and hotel made me think; what expertise have they got in this area?
I saw them play three times at the Ricoh, very enjoyable but I think in hindsight, I was one of very few paying full price for the tickets. When they hardened-up the prices the support level went down to a few thousand.
I am so sad that RU cannot generate support anything like what football can, but over-reaching can cost you dear.
I think loyalty and locality gave way for blind ambition. Might have looked like an attractive package but the hard-core fans were put below the dream of a financial complex in Coventry
Along with Harlequins. Leicester & Bath, they openly flouted payment of players and the RFU turned a blind eye in the 1980's.
And to think so many deals in the 80s were under the table affairs... as the old quote went "What's the difference between League and Union... League players pay taxes" 😐
@@catch22rugby Leonard to Quins, Ryan to Wasps, Clarke to Bath. That is just from Saracens.
Yessss the egg chasers are gone you would never be a Coventry team give us our ground back and p off back to London
Appreciate you're disliking towards Wasps themselves, but spare a thought for all the hard working staff who've just lost their jobs. Receptionists, cleaners, marketing interns etc
Unfortunately rugby union is far behind football in money. I think I read a piece stating it pulls in as much money as handball in Germany!
Very interesting! Will have to look the finances and see how close they are!
No shit, English football is a money laundering enterprise, and status symbol for rich Saudis or rich Americans.
I'm glad rugby doesn't have that.
It's the TV deals (which is a complete joke, especially compared to football) and the rugby fans that need to generate clubs more money. Or clubs just have to stop paying players such big bucks.
@@iseriver3982 yup Soccer loses so many millions and just gets away with it. Sick really.
@Edit name couldn't agree more... unfortunately it's not as simple as shipping out the old guard and replacing them. Many will be reluctant to give up their spots. Entitlement and delusion runs deep
@@galinor7 I mean it’s because they can owners are so much richer,tv revenue is so much higher and is more global. A lot of teams don’t loose money but the ones that do can afford it.
It is starting to look as though virtually every Premiership club is really struggling financially. The loss of Wasp & Worcester could be the start of a domino effect.
Some of the losses are definitely Covid related but the reality is simple, the game does not generate enough income. Most of the Premiership clubs at best have income equivalent to a club at the bottom of the English football championship or top of League 1 and like those football equivalents depend on a sugar daddy to survive.
IMO survival requires some radical rethinking. For player safety and longevity we need fewer games but financial survival requires more games or the same number of games but with bigger crowds, bigger sponsorship etc. IMO one long term plan with a chance of working is to merge the English Premiership and United Rugby Championship - and that does mean some long standing teams will need to merge. Newcastle Falcons need a league that includes derby games against Edinburgh and Glasgow, Gloucester really needs derbies against Cardiff or Ospreys etc.
Finances aren't healthy across the UK. I'd go far to say that League 1 would be more akin to rugby these days. For example Ospreys get around £6m a year on their budget, compared to around £20m (ish) at Swansea City who, by their own admission, are a lower third Championship team when it comes to money
Sad times for a rugby fan if this is the norm
Fingers crossed the game can get itself together and bounce back!
Decent little video.
Thanking you!
Any time a franchise fails I open a bottle of Cava,although as I open a bottle every evening no one knows why I am smiling and not my usual grumpy self.As far as union,other sports and normal folks go my advice is simple,be careful with how much you send if you can't affored someone's wages or a skiing holiday then don't spend the money.
I wouldn't go as far as raising a glass to their demise - a lot of good people have lost their jobs through no fault of their own
@@catch22rugby That is a much more reasonable position not that anyone should ever write anything reasonable as a youtube common
@@suffern63 thought we'd give it a go 😅
As a Rugger overseas, this, Warriors and the very low attendance of the League WC is concerning for me. Even our regional league has had a lot of cancelation of matches due to low numbers and funding 😭
Something has to give - rugby can't continue this way!
Here's a thought - get rid of a load of overseas imports and sprinkle the Wasps players across other Prem teams. There are some great home-qualified players in there that England should do their utmost to keep playing top level rugby
A fine balance with overseas imports - they bring a standard that improves playing quality. If they all go - then the Prem quality deteriorates and the chasm between Prem and International becomes more daunting. Young players will be ill prepared for the jump in quality when England call ups come
This has got to be said.
Wasps are in trouble because they have been spending beyond their means for decades. "Once a Wasp, always a Wasp" was the strapline. Easy when you drive a truckload of money up to their door. But where has that money come from? A tiny stadium in Wycombe, seldom filled?
Wasp success has been built on the never never, and why is anyone surprised when the chickens come home to roost?
I feel for the staff and fans, but many of them have had 20 years in the sunshine that they didn't deserve, while the rest of us struggle and have promising players poached by the likes of Waps.
Difficult to find that sympathy.
It looks like many clubs have been spending beyond their means trying to keep up with the global market on players. Agreed some have been stretching their player budgets more than others. Something has to be done to bring club rugby finances into check.
@@catch22rugby I'm still not sure I believe it, but Newcastle, apparently turned a profit last year. Got thumped weekly but got thumped honestly.
If a few clubs can keep their heads down and stay in business until the obvious profligacys meet their inevitable end, or bend to the realities of life, and begin to live sensibly, we may have a sustainable sport.
@@ploppysonofploppy6066 Apparently they did! £162,000 in profit in 2021... but I'm not sure if they have any outstanding deals with creditors.
@@catch22rugby I heard £19 million all since covid. They owed around £10 million before to 2019 windfall. But the debt is with the owner,.guessing the existing assets would cover that.
I hope Wasps survive!!
Fingers crossed 🤞
As usual the commentator forgot to mention the elephant in the room! Wasps like many more clubs in England are paying vast amounts of money for overseas players coaches and agents and all but ignore one of the biggest player bases In the world in the championship, grass root and academy’s, and clubs like Leicester, London Irish sale NH field up to 11 non eqp players every game even though the rfu rules state no more than 2 non eqp players should be in the starting 15. Because it is fudged! Nearly every club in England is in huge debt because of it yet year on year each club fills it stating 15 with foreigners with some earning eye watering salaries, bristols piatau is the highest earner in England, at one million a year, how the hell does that work! Plus all roads for this debacle lead to the rfu, the organisation that set it up in the first place, so Until English rugby lives to its means expect more of this to happen
Hi Iain - on this occasion we felt that the foreign vs local debate alone was not a significant contributing factor for Wasps specifically.
79% of the Wasps squad are English and 86% are Home Nations players eligible for the Lions. While other clubs certainly have higher percentages of foreign talent - in Wasps case, they seem to have a rather large proportion of English talent
Exactly as Catch 22 noted it’s not the level of overseas players it’s the total incompetence of clubs to run their finances on a sustainable basis. Having expenses including loans or bonds, in excess of income is something a 10 year old could recognise as a seriously bad idea. Hoping for the next millionaire idiot off the rank is not a strategy.
As much as it was the owners' fault for allowing Wasps to spiral out of existence in its current form, the RFU and Premiership Rugby must also be called to account for not keeping governance of the situation. To trust a bunch of amateurs to govern what is essentially a professional game is a recipe for carnage - Will Carling was right all along, there are too many old farts running and ruining the game.
Instead of shrinking the Premiership down to ten teams, it should revert to 12 teams, but there should also be greater co-operation with the Championship to allow other ambitious clubs to carry on daring to dream. As other commenters have mentioned the Top 14/Pro D2 model looks the best model to emulate.
And just for the record, I happen to live a mere 15 minute walk away from the stadium. Officially, it's now called the Coventry Building Society Arena, but in many ways it will always be the Ricoh. I'm going to miss the weekly drunken stagger to and from the place (two micro-breweries in the immediate area, don't you know) - it'll have to be fortnightly now.
Couldn't agree more with the "old farts" line. Look at Welsh Rugby for example... they lost Amanda Blanc from their set-up (former CEO of Aviva and listed on Forbes 100 Most Powerful Women list) because they had Rob Butcher in charge... a retired Geography teacher and former Bargoed RFC committeeman 🤨Until the incompetent relinquish their hold, rugby will continue to fall behind other sports
CBS Arena noted... but I still call the Swansea.com Stadium the Liberty 😜
When people ask why Salarycens breaking the salary cap and distorting the market matters; this is why. Clubs go under because they can't pay their debts which is largely because players are overpaid because cheats like Salarycens have artificially increased the pay players can demand
Saracens haven't helped but it's a global market. Many French teams prop up prices but if they're doing it sustainably then you can't blame them for doing it
@@catch22rugby I agree to an extent. But for players who want to stay in England the market was skewed by saracens complete disregard for the rules.
Also, my understanding is the French sides are allowed to include equity investment as part of balancing the books every year, meaning it isn't necessarily sustainable. You also then have clubs like La Rochelle who simply use "sponsorship" deals with their owners to balance the books
No point keep making Sarries the villains, yes they broke the salary cap repeatedly and yes had a huge amount of success doing so, they were also the only premiership team able to properly compete in Europe for any prolonged period, they were not the only club to be cheating the salary cap either but as others didn’t do so well everyone conveniently forgets this, for the record I am a Wasps fan and I genuinely believe Sarries had little to no impact on the current situation, unfortunately the move was all wrong not welcomed to their new home by the local community many fans (myself included) unable to attend often etc.
@@catch22rugby , That is the problem. Globalism is THE con game--in everything. The sooner people look behind the curtain the sooner they may see the "Wizard of Oz" is a scam.
@@inBODwetrust13 , And there are/were no "sponsorship" deals at Leinster? Seems I remember "someone" sponsoring Jonathan Sexton so he returned from France. You are right about Saracens. But be careful of kettles and pots.
Such a shame what is happening to our game
Unsustainable spending 😫
It’s just market economics, the two most financially unviable clubs have fallen because they spent beyond their means to maintain their position in the league.
Rugby in general needs proper leadership as we are losing too many historic clubs and the finances are a mess. Franchising to a non rugby area is just screwing the fans. So much young talent and development teams let down by this
Have to agree with you James!
Interesting
Never should have left London.
Agreed!
Yes they should have been patient. They could have been playing at Brentford Community Stadium now, or at Plough Lane. They chose greedy ambition over loyalty to their fans.
They got stung 🤔
Quite literally!
So now apparently they are going to ground share with Worcester. All I would say to Worcester is be very very wary. Look what happened to Coventry football club who were effectively forced out for a number of seasons following a similar arrangement. Not to be trusted.
Fair to say that a lot of Worcester fans are sceptical...
if the management at any company cannot balance the books then they are incompetent and should be sacked.
Question is - who sacks the owners!
They should have stayed put. After the initial excitement no one was interested in them.
Felt weird seeing Wasps not in London
I am not sure about your take in the finances. I agree the Worcester's owners are a mess but taking on a 35 million debt that needs repairs in a lump sounds totally irresponsible based on rugby finances.
Don't get me wrong, it is a very risky move. It seems a more calculated move compared to the pure negligence at Worcester. Both outcomes are horrendous but Wasps looked like they had an ounce of due-diligence in comparison
Obviously the business model isn’t working
Couldn't agree more William
Gutted for wasps. Amazing club that have done much for rugby in England.
However, that idiot Dallaglio isn’t helping them with his “a special case should be made” nonsense.
Sad state for everyone involved. Dallaglio is going to do all he can to save his club but I can see why many aren't happy! Especially with Worcester in a similar situation
My first experience watching wasps was with James Haskell who is a fantastic rugby player, but when the club mistreated him and some of the other players by not paying them decently once James left the club so did my affiliation but it’s still sad to see a club with this much history get relegated
Did your support go elsewhere out of curiosity?
how does english clubs go broke when they have the richest union in world rugby??? Why cant they IRFU bail them out?
Not too aware of the funding models in England but I'd guess that it's due to too many clubs being in the top flight. If you have to bail one out, you'd have to do the same for all of them if that happened? Would hit the RFU coffers heavily I would imagine
sad
It is indeed
They spent too much money and went bust. Simple. You cut your cloth accordingly. English fans have made fun of the lack of success in the Welsh regions. They have had to pay pay that success. Two Saesneg clubs are now paying the consequences.
Would've been a pretty short video of we just said that 😅 the Welsh Regions aren't exactly in the greatest situation right now... only takes one change of heart from the WRU and all 4 will go bust
They moved out and away from their core support in the South East of England, to Coventry.
A move many won't forgive them for
@@catch22rugby they should not be forgiven. They cannot be trusted. They have moved to Solihull now but why should anyone in Solihull support them. Where will they move next? Who knows.
This is becoming a farce. Who’s next? Anyone want to own up to how cheating financially for years has affected all the clubs, or shall we just blame each individual club each time this happens? What’s happening to our game? Does anyone really care? Anyone? About the whole system?
We truly agree that something monumental has to change. What that change is, not too sure. There are so many smart and intelligent people who probably have the answers but it seems that those in ivory towers are reluctant to impose sweeping reforms that could uproot their positions in the "boys clubs"...
Interesting comment but please s-l-o-w down and stop swallowing syllables; who are Less Tigers?!
Noted - will try and tone it down 😅
LOL
👎
😂 brilliant news, they were never welcome in Coventry
Rugby loyalties aside - think about the local staff members. Celebrating the redundancies of many hard work people (include those on minimum wage) isn't something to be happy about
@@catch22rugby shame on the club for paying minimum wage ! Also they didn’t give a shite about local staff we they relocated to Coventry. Good riddance
not by you idiot chav footie fans. Here's some TRUTH for you. I worked at the Stadium when the Chavs owners stopped paying the rent on the lease, threw their toys out the pram and moved them to NORTHAMPTON. The Chav's owners then swore never to return to the CBS arena, sued and lost every single court case. Tried bullying a local charity. The list goings on. Try blaming the right people, that'd be the spivs that own the football club
@@goodtimes2hellyeah169
Agreed, they've taken a ridiculous, reckless gamble and it's failed. Life can be a bitch.