I'm not sure if I would boil it down to that. Griffith was a person of sacrifice. He gave everything up for his dream, to the point where his dream was in control of him. He sacrificed his friendships, his humanity, his body and eventually, all of the people who had come to view him as a Hero. He gave up everything for absolutely nothing, or, in hindsight, Godhood. Femto is an empty, soulless character, just like Griffith.
@@theravenousrabbit3671 this is an interesting perspective on the character. That explains his sporadic appearances post Eclipse. He’s achieved Godhood at the expense of those who’d followed him to the ends of the Earth (the Hawks), even has a kingdom of his own, and yet he’s not satisfied with it. He wants absolute power, to the degree that nobody could stand to oppose him. This point stands given that he now wants a war with the Kushans Empire.
I'm gonna say Griffith is worse, and here's my justification: Zeon and Griffith both permanently alter the world(s). We can talk about capacity for evil and comparisons to historical figures and innocent people and all that, but here's the kicker: when Zeon kills someone, they're dead. Even when they're pulling a Dynamo from Mega Man X5 and destroying the majority of the habital life on Earth, they're just killing people. Griffith? He went from dooming everyone he ever cared about to suffering in Hell forever (regardless of their actions in life) to outright being a False Messiah leading hundreds, possibly thousands of innocent people to not only dying at the hands of the hydras and dragons he dragged into reality but also having their eternal souls damned to Hell to suffer until their sense of self is entirely replaced with nothing but a constant state of pain. At least if Zeon nukes me I'm dead and done, with Griffith I go to the Eternal Pain Dimension to suffer pain for eternity.
Im not too familiar with Gundam but Griffith is a literal demon who murdered reality itself to make life his fanfiction at the expense of literally every other living thing.
Id sooner say Sieg Zeon and take up the cause of Space Noid independence via questionable methods than forgive Griffiths betrayal of his homies for a title.
Zeon has more supporters because their crimes are more impersonal (bar stuff like Stardust Memories or 8th MS Team where they are made personal for some characters. But also because they have some characters that are likable or have some cool moments. Ramba Ral being a competent commander and pilot, but also having genuine redeeming qualities that get explored through future material. And that’s only one, same with Dozle and his last stand in the Big Zam to buy time for his troops and family to escape. Granted Tomino wanted to portray it as him becoming some demon of war, but there is still something heroic about it. Granted, this could be explained as offering parallels to the “Gallant foes” narrative surrounding generals like Rommel and Guderian, but the problem is that Tomino and others just kept making too many good characters for Zeon’s side. Also, the real villain of UC Gundam is Anaheim Electronics, imagine in our world if NATO had found out Northrop Grumman had been building jets not just for the US, but for the Soviets too and some random Nazi remnant groups in Bolivia. All for profit. That’s Anaheim.
Also not to forget, it was literal WAR. And no, Tomino didn't keep making too many good characters on Zeon's side, that's just how war is. You will absolutely have characters trying to do the right thing on all sides of a conflict.
A big point a lot of people trip up on with Gundam is that later works make it explicitly clear the Earth Federation is pretty corrupt, with there being a theme that there are legitimate grievances to be had. The problem is that from the start the anti federation movement was exploited by bad people, and by ZZ gundam it became clear that all the good members of Zeon either died or joined the AEUG. Hell, Bright Noa joined the AEUG in Zeta to stop the atrocities of the Titans, basically a mix of feddie spec ops and glowies, but by the time Neo Zeon returned to the scene he joined back up with the federation because for all it's problems Zeon was worse. This isn't even getting into the nightmare of what happens later on in the UC setting, such as the literal feminist death cult of Victory gundam that was so on the nose they named one of their ships "Auschwitz". I think it boils down to a mix of people can't handle nuance and Zeon, despite being blatantly imperialistic, does brand itself as anti imperialistic. The low hanging fruit would be to just say people sympathize with Zeon because "muh space nazis", but I really think it does boil down to most fiction doesn't handle nuance well so they aren't used to fiction that does it decently. Basically, people see one side has blood on their hands and assume the person opposite them must be good, even as they sit atop a mountain of bodies.
You have to remember that the Colonies were held as lower-class to the EF. Which is why they formed the republic in the first place. The Zabi family used his death to take power and that's when Zeon started causing problem. even in 0079, many soldiers were not keen on what Zeon and the Zabi family was doing. Also, it is pretty hilarious with that Victory Gundam bit. Seeing as someone rewrote Mienkomf as a feminist piece and it was praised for it. It's like they predicted the future.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Besides, later UC Gundam stuff (followed by G Reco and/or Turn A) make it clear it probably didn't matter anyway because thousands of years later things still suck. Zeon quickly becomes a drop in the bucket by comparison, though I suppose they do still get special mention for being first to really kick things off.
@@MaverickhunterXZero This. The colonies were oppressed and had minimal representation if any in the EF. They were basically vassal states with very little autonomy. Also, the EF invented colony cleansing in response to Spacenoid peaceful protest. When you know how the EF operated and their crimes, you start to understand how Zeon could come to such an extreme act like dropping colonies and meteors on Earth.
Griffith doesn't care who he uses or hurts to reach his goals, he knew that before he got his hands on the egg. Point is there was never doubt in his heart with the shit he was willing to do, which explains why he was so distraught when he didn't get his way after Guts defeated and left him. Not that there's any backstory to him either, otherwise that would've been brought to attention. Which I suppose is different from Zeon because War is Hell, I don't know anything about Gundam beyond the one-eyed robots but war is hell no matter where you are. What price are you willing to pay to ensure the survival of you and yours taken to the extreme.
Gihren didn't unravel the fabric of reality. Say what you will about Gihren and his family, but at least Zabis kept things physical, not metaphysical (for the most part).
To play Devil's Advocate, Griffith needed magic to kill, maim and torture as many people as he did. Zeon did it with technology that we have access to now and managed to kill, IIRC, half of the human race (~6 billion people in early UC 79) using nerve gas, nukes and virus bombs. That says nothing of Sydney, Australia. Even at our worst our leaders would never deploy that kind of destruction without considering the MAD doctrine; the Zabis did it as little more than a simple battle strategy.
In the context of CCA, Char's point was a pretext to bring about another silly chapter in an ongoing dick measuring contest with Amuro, who has shown that he'd be happy to never see the bastard again. Char's point was as hollow, pathetic and fake as he was.
The only reason Griffith doesn't have a 5 billion kill count is because he doesn't live in a futuristic scifi setting with a massive human population, and he's probably still in the setup stage of a mega-atrocity. Whatever he's trying to do with Falconia will probably have a death/population ratio proportional to the Gundam genocides.
I'd say that Griffith is probably worse. At least in context. Griffith basically subjugated all of mankind, and there's effectively no good way to fight against him. it might very well end up in humanity being eternally enslaved. Especially if *SPOILERS* IoE has anything to say about it. Meanwhile at least in Gundam, if humanity REALLY wants, they can spread out among the stars, and Zeon wouldn't be able to catch EVERY human fleeing. Plus there's people actually fighting them decently, so it's not a pure stomp like Griffith is doing.
Griffith didn't view the Hawks as friends, but it's not because of what he claimed to Charlotte, where he said a true friend would have to be an "equal" in his eyes. It's because he viewed his men as possessions. Toys for his war game. A means to an end, and nothing more. But then Guts came along, and while Griffith tried his damnedest to make sure Guts knew he BELONGED to him, dehumanizing him right out the gate... ...Guts not only didn't catch onto that red flag, but in the following years, Guts' sincere nature and longing for companionship rubbed off on Griffith. But Griffith didn't view this as a positive. That part of his humanity DISTRACTED him. It was an obstacle that got in the way of the kingdom he wanted. Griffith didn't want to think about the guilt he felt from all the people who died for his cause. He wanted to PURGE it. To cut out that chunk of his humanity. Griffith sacrificed the Hawks, particularly sticking it to Guts and Casca, because 1) he wanted to punish them for DARING to defy his control, since to him, they were his property, and 2) he couldn't afford to keep them around anymore, because he had grown too attached to them, and he didn't want anymore distractions between him and his kingdom. But it didn't go through the way he planned. The Skull Knight intervened and SAVED them. They're still alive. So now Griffith has a dilemma. He has to deal with keeping the empire he stole (it once belonged to King Gaiseric), but also his grudge/longing for the two people who wanted to be a genuine friend to him. He already slighted Guts and Casca on a nightmarish level, so there's no making peace with them. He can only try to ignore them. But if the recent chapters are any indication, he failed miserably at that. Since they're still alive, he wants to try and put them back under his control, but with so many factors working against this, he's doomed to topple his own house of cards. But we've yet to see how that happens...
As someone who loves both settings, it comes down to one simple question. Which is worse in your eyes? Evil born out of selfishness or evil born out of Benevolence? Both, at the end of the day, do the same thing, and bring about the destruction of entire people for their own ambitions. But differences are their justification and how they go about them. Evil for selfish reasons, is easier to dismiss and hate. It’s doesn’t hide what it is. Evil for the sake of benevolence (as Zeon tries to paint itself as) Is also just as insidious, because someone who believes they are doing the right thing, can justify any atrocity and see nothing wrong as long as it benefits the greater good in their eyes.
TAL's section on Griffith was excellent. Not much context on Zeon but I think Micah's done a pretty good job painting a picture of what kind of bastard Zeon is.
Did not expect TAL to talk on Gundam. Do more! I do think the question of who's worse is kind of meaningless, honestly. It's like asking if hitler or stalin were worse.
Very nice video, and good breakdowns. I hate to be the "ACKSHUALLY" guy, but when it's brought up I gotta point it out because it's a MASSIVE misconception in the modern day: the Nazis weren't Fascists, they were National Socialists. Italy was the Fascists. The whole conflation of the two came from socialists trying to run cover for socialism, lmao.
The thing with Griffith is that I think a lot of people separate him from Golden Age to Post-Eclipse. Golden Age, he's extremely manipulative sure, but most of what he does mainly harms bad people who ultimately have it coming. From Julius to the Queen, excluding Adonis' death. Beyond that, it's just that he does put his men at risk in order for his plans to go through, such as the attack on the fortress. Not much of it is that heinous compared to what anyone else is capable of, he just has the ambition to see it through. People can more or less just see him as a good twist on the generic Fantasy-Hero concept, where that's how he presents himself, but we see deep down he's capable of underhanded things.
Zeon is no match for Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz. That guy demolished the earth. First try. Reduced the human population to two. Went into every possible timeline and demolished the earth. Then, he demolished the backup earth. Then, he created a Roko's Basilisk with infinite perception omniscience and omnipotence, so that it could destroy the earth for him in every possible time line. And he only did it to clear the solar system to build a hyperspace bypass (that may or may not have been built depending on the timeline) That's just to say, Zeon doesn't have the greatest kill count in all of science fiction.
Both of them are evil, but it's better we ask ourselves why some people think these things unironically. Zeon was made as a clear example of fascism, and yet people seem to argue for it. In my experience, it tends to be because our immediate world is neoliberal, and so many young men feel abandoned by the neoliberal system that they want to cheer on anything that would logically oppose it. Acceptance has turned into bigotry and favoritism, and human decency into the enforcement of pronouns. In this world, is there really any question why we support the bad guy?
Well, let's also not forget that Zeon represents spacenoid independence... which is SUPER based. It's easy to see why people support Zeon, even with the war crimes.
In terms of sheer number of deaths, Legend of the Galactic Heroes is probably up there. Ship losses for fleets are regularly in the tens of thousands, and even the smaller fleet ships boast crews numbers in the thousands. And those are just for space battles - battles on planets or breaks in logistical lines causing mass starvation or rebellion ratchet those numbers up a fair bit. Reinhard did nothing wrong.
The way I see this; it says alot about Griffith, that his scale of evil, that of a lifespan of an individual, could be compared to the evolution of a whole nation.
I think Griffith is evil in a more personal way. With Zeon it’s a war, it’s easy to call for bombings and drone strikes when you don’t see the people being killed. Griffith sacrificed his own friends, and did the worst things one can morally do, even if it didn’t benefit him in any way more then spite. But numbers wise Zeon technically killed more people.
I learned recently that I'm like 3 degrees of separation from knowing quinton personally and that scares me. (Friend of one of my best friends sibling)
Didn't the Zabi family usurp power of Zeon by assassinating Zeon Zum Deikun since only Deqwin says he was the successor? This sends his surviving family into hiding, one becoming apart of the White Base crew and the other vow revenge. Considering it is a war and both Zeon and the federation committed serval war crimes, It's just one side prevailed and were allowed to sweep theirs under the rug - and you really cannot judge an entirety of a faction on the actions of the leaders, especially with how the Zabi family took to power. Many Zeon troops defected over the Zabi family leadership. The result of them losing the one year war, causes factions like the Titan becoming very much jackboot thugs, leading to AUEG no doubt mentioned in already. And, as Yoshiyuki Tomino himself said; _ZIEG ZEON!_ Griffith on the other hand you can judge a man based on what he does a lot of evil, is evil because evil.
Yeah I remember tomino doing that at a panel. He was shouting sieg zeon with the crowd. Zeon can be pretty cool & interesting. I do agree it's too much of a broad stroke to say all of zeon is bad. If I recall Garma & Dozle & Ramba Ral are seen in a better light by most fans & in universe because they genuinely cared about spacenoids & their own men. Like overall Zeon was bad. But Federation is the better of the two & is heavily flawed & needs some form of reform.
@@TheMatthardyv1 Eh, naw Federation is garbage. The colonies were oppressed and had minimal representation if any in the EF. They were basically vassal states with very little autonomy. Also, the EF invented colony cleansing in response to Spacenoid peaceful protest. When you know how the EF operated and their crimes pre-OYW, you start to understand how Zeon could come to such an extreme act like dropping colonies and meteors on Earth.
Griffith didn’t have a point, at all. I partially side with Zeon. Just partially. Aside from the Zabis. But then again, they’re still an unrealistic utopian ideology. Arguably, the Zabis were better than Char in this regard(aside from Giren, he was about as delusional.) they seemed to be more realistic in their idealism.
My take is that Griffith is at least trying to be a sensible ruler, while Zeon looked at the single most botched operation in their history that saw billions killed and went "Let's do it again." And they constantly field the most ridiculous machines they can make in battles staged in heavily populated urban centers, causing millions in collateral damage and anywhere from dozens to thousands dead each time they do a sortie. Being a regular person in either universe would be hard, but if I can make it to Falconia, I think my chances are better there than in any place Zeon operates in.
I think it is a question of what they would be willing to do, if Griffith had to kill and rape and torture a billion people to be king he would in a heartbeat, I can't speak for Zeon, don't know much about it
Spacenoid independence is based. That said, dropping a colony on Earth was... such a huge escalation like holy shit, why. However, let's also not forget the 100 years of Earth Federation oppression on the colonies. Zeon didn't invent colony "cleansing", and that itself speaks volumes about the EF.
I very much believe that deep down Griffith is just a selfish child that has never grown up and has been living in a personal fantasy story were everything always goes his way and if it doesn’t he’ll make it so.🐱
Heres my slight counter arugment to Zeon: When people say "Zeon did nothing wrong" They're more specifically talking about almost all the soldiers of Zeon and not the Zabi Family, Haman Karen, or Char. Zeon's War was a War of Indipendence because the Federation was basically Strangleholding them like the British did to the American Colonies and Zeon wanted out they wanted to be indipendent from the Federation and not have to pay taxes and stuff. However the Wrong people got put in charge of Zeon time after time and turned basically revolutionist soldiers into warcriminals Thats the thing about Gundam it shows the Good the Bad and the Ugly OF BOTH SIDES the Federation were not Good guys they treated EVERYONE in space as second class citizens. Heck they did WORSE war crimes to people AFTER the one year war what ya think Zeta Gundam was about?
Correct me if I'm wrong. But AUEG had funding from some people in the federation, former federation & other groups correct? After the dakar speech it somewhat became a "cival war" with AUEG with federation vs Titans & what ever groups in the federation sided with them? Neo zeon was the wild card in that war if I recalled. Gonna need to rewatch Z
@@TheMatthardyv1 No your partly right The AEUG is the Anti Earth Uninion Group and are a Anti-Federation group formed to remove the Corruption within the Federation mainly the Titans but were primaily made up of Ex-Zeon Soldiers who stayed behind after Operation Stardust or didnt join Axis. They did accept any and all peeps regaurdless of background both feddie and civilians. And eventually they would form Londo Bell
THIS. The EF is the king of war crimes. People forget there's a 100 years of EF oppression before the OYW even starts. The colonies were oppressed and had minimal representation if any in the EF. They were basically vassal states with very little autonomy. Also, the EF invented colony cleansing in response to Spacenoid peaceful protest. When you know how the EF operated and their crimes, you start to understand how Zeon could come to such an extreme act like dropping colonies and meteors on Earth.
Griffith merged the worlds bringing fantasy monsters like dragons and Giants to the rest of the world that wasn't prepared to fight that kind of a threat. Not to mention the implication that Griffith might sacrifice everybody in the New Kingdom Christmas is not only directly and indirectly responsible for a lot of deaths but a lot of those souls in the afterlife. Are likely going into hell sure the warlord killed billions but at least he's only wrecking them in life Griffith is screwing everybody he kills and likely throwing their souls into hell I honestly believe getting instantly killed by a meteor is much better to get ripped apart by a dragon or a another messed up fantasy monster just for my soul to go to hell because Griffith sacrificed his friends to be a Cthulhu 😂😂😂
I think scale and genre muddy the waters in comparison. Also (hypothetical scenario) if you kill 99% of humanity in Gundam there's still 100mil people around. If you do that in Berserk, there's about a million left. Across a planet. Not enough for extinction, obviously but much closer. Raw human suffering is bad but so is erasing culture, history, knowledge, entire ethnicities and civilizations enduring systemic collapse because there just aren't enough people left. Griffith almost ensured that Falconia was it. Everyone under HIS roof. Space Natzis are bad but what if they also unleashed plagues, demons and supernatural entities across the galaxy.
almightyloli thrashing shortfatotaku despite the situation looking like a "change the channel" situation lately? Just rumors,thought I'd ask the horses mouth.
Griffith had it all and risked it for some mid princess action
It ain't called Tenland, that's for damn sure.
@@LevantineR1 Fucking hell, that actually made me laugh.
I'm not sure if I would boil it down to that. Griffith was a person of sacrifice. He gave everything up for his dream, to the point where his dream was in control of him. He sacrificed his friendships, his humanity, his body and eventually, all of the people who had come to view him as a Hero. He gave up everything for absolutely nothing, or, in hindsight, Godhood. Femto is an empty, soulless character, just like Griffith.
Not only was she mid, she was daddies sloppy seconds
@@theravenousrabbit3671 this is an interesting perspective on the character. That explains his sporadic appearances post Eclipse. He’s achieved Godhood at the expense of those who’d followed him to the ends of the Earth (the Hawks), even has a kingdom of his own, and yet he’s not satisfied with it. He wants absolute power, to the degree that nobody could stand to oppose him. This point stands given that he now wants a war with the Kushans Empire.
Griffith sold his ass for $20
$20 is $20 bro 😂
He would've sold that shit for a Klondike bar.
It was a very crisp 20
You are just jealous nobody will pay for yours
Them dollas made him holla alright
Zeon did war crimes for the grind, while Griffith clapped Casca to establish dominance over Guts.
They both like to do some tomfoolery.
Zeon did war crimes for the grind. Griffith did the grind (on Casca) for war crimes.
The Holy Trinity of Berserk Shitposting
Griffith did nothing wrong
Casca enjoyed it
Guts deserved it
Three of the shitpostings of all time
There are more than two people in this world who are genuinely convinced of all three of these things
I ain't even heard that last one
@@seg162 I bet In Praise of Shadows is one of 'em.
I'm gonna say Griffith is worse, and here's my justification:
Zeon and Griffith both permanently alter the world(s). We can talk about capacity for evil and comparisons to historical figures and innocent people and all that, but here's the kicker: when Zeon kills someone, they're dead. Even when they're pulling a Dynamo from Mega Man X5 and destroying the majority of the habital life on Earth, they're just killing people. Griffith? He went from dooming everyone he ever cared about to suffering in Hell forever (regardless of their actions in life) to outright being a False Messiah leading hundreds, possibly thousands of innocent people to not only dying at the hands of the hydras and dragons he dragged into reality but also having their eternal souls damned to Hell to suffer until their sense of self is entirely replaced with nothing but a constant state of pain.
At least if Zeon nukes me I'm dead and done, with Griffith I go to the Eternal Pain Dimension to suffer pain for eternity.
Zeon might have a big kill count, but Griffith fucked up reality itself
Im not too familiar with Gundam but Griffith is a literal demon who murdered reality itself to make life his fanfiction at the expense of literally every other living thing.
Id sooner say Sieg Zeon and take up the cause of Space Noid independence via questionable methods than forgive Griffiths betrayal of his homies for a title.
I can't believe Loli was secretly Quinton Reviews this whole time
It's gotta be Griffith. This guy is pure evil.
>Who is Best?
Fixed it for you, champ.
Shota is too strong, he breaks walls like it on sales.
Counter point: Shota fumbles.
Zeon has more supporters because their crimes are more impersonal (bar stuff like Stardust Memories or 8th MS Team where they are made personal for some characters.
But also because they have some characters that are likable or have some cool moments. Ramba Ral being a competent commander and pilot, but also having genuine redeeming qualities that get explored through future material. And that’s only one, same with Dozle and his last stand in the Big Zam to buy time for his troops and family to escape. Granted Tomino wanted to portray it as him becoming some demon of war, but there is still something heroic about it.
Granted, this could be explained as offering parallels to the “Gallant foes” narrative surrounding generals like Rommel and Guderian, but the problem is that Tomino and others just kept making too many good characters for Zeon’s side.
Also, the real villain of UC Gundam is Anaheim Electronics, imagine in our world if NATO had found out Northrop Grumman had been building jets not just for the US, but for the Soviets too and some random Nazi remnant groups in Bolivia. All for profit. That’s Anaheim.
Yep
War in the pocket shows the side of people who support Zeon.
Also not to forget, it was literal WAR. And no, Tomino didn't keep making too many good characters on Zeon's side, that's just how war is. You will absolutely have characters trying to do the right thing on all sides of a conflict.
@@MaverickhunterXZero I'd say most of the works made in the past 15 years show the good side of Zeon.
Getting channel awsome vides from this crossover.
Tis a nostalgic feeling.
A big point a lot of people trip up on with Gundam is that later works make it explicitly clear the Earth Federation is pretty corrupt, with there being a theme that there are legitimate grievances to be had. The problem is that from the start the anti federation movement was exploited by bad people, and by ZZ gundam it became clear that all the good members of Zeon either died or joined the AEUG. Hell, Bright Noa joined the AEUG in Zeta to stop the atrocities of the Titans, basically a mix of feddie spec ops and glowies, but by the time Neo Zeon returned to the scene he joined back up with the federation because for all it's problems Zeon was worse. This isn't even getting into the nightmare of what happens later on in the UC setting, such as the literal feminist death cult of Victory gundam that was so on the nose they named one of their ships "Auschwitz".
I think it boils down to a mix of people can't handle nuance and Zeon, despite being blatantly imperialistic, does brand itself as anti imperialistic. The low hanging fruit would be to just say people sympathize with Zeon because "muh space nazis", but I really think it does boil down to most fiction doesn't handle nuance well so they aren't used to fiction that does it decently. Basically, people see one side has blood on their hands and assume the person opposite them must be good, even as they sit atop a mountain of bodies.
You have to remember that the Colonies were held as lower-class to the EF. Which is why they formed the republic in the first place. The Zabi family used his death to take power and that's when Zeon started causing problem. even in 0079, many soldiers were not keen on what Zeon and the Zabi family was doing.
Also, it is pretty hilarious with that Victory Gundam bit. Seeing as someone rewrote Mienkomf as a feminist piece and it was praised for it. It's like they predicted the future.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Besides, later UC Gundam stuff (followed by G Reco and/or Turn A) make it clear it probably didn't matter anyway because thousands of years later things still suck. Zeon quickly becomes a drop in the bucket by comparison, though I suppose they do still get special mention for being first to really kick things off.
@@MaverickhunterXZero This. The colonies were oppressed and had minimal representation if any in the EF. They were basically vassal states with very little autonomy. Also, the EF invented colony cleansing in response to Spacenoid peaceful protest. When you know how the EF operated and their crimes, you start to understand how Zeon could come to such an extreme act like dropping colonies and meteors on Earth.
Griffith is worse
The Austrian Painter didn't off himself, he lived out the rest of his days in Brazil.
didnt he go through the Agartha portal?
The FBI was still looking for him after the war
I throught he was revived was a zombie wizard?
Bueno Dias, Mein Fürher!
@Qus-pi8kb the FBI was helping other ones hide so that's some pretty obvious distraction ops on their part.
Sieg Zeon!
Indeed Sieg Zeon!
I really enjoyed the opener collaboration skit, felt like a tgwtg throwback, but moderately self-aware
Griffith doesn't care who he uses or hurts to reach his goals, he knew that before he got his hands on the egg. Point is there was never doubt in his heart with the shit he was willing to do, which explains why he was so distraught when he didn't get his way after Guts defeated and left him. Not that there's any backstory to him either, otherwise that would've been brought to attention.
Which I suppose is different from Zeon because War is Hell, I don't know anything about Gundam beyond the one-eyed robots but war is hell no matter where you are. What price are you willing to pay to ensure the survival of you and yours taken to the extreme.
Loli is admittedly cooler because he has a fedora so he wins this
Gihren didn't unravel the fabric of reality. Say what you will about Gihren and his family, but at least Zabis kept things physical, not metaphysical (for the most part).
To play Devil's Advocate, Griffith needed magic to kill, maim and torture as many people as he did. Zeon did it with technology that we have access to now and managed to kill, IIRC, half of the human race (~6 billion people in early UC 79) using nerve gas, nukes and virus bombs. That says nothing of Sydney, Australia. Even at our worst our leaders would never deploy that kind of destruction without considering the MAD doctrine; the Zabis did it as little more than a simple battle strategy.
You can make a case for Char having a point. But, to say he did nothing wrong is flat out incorrect. Forget about the entire principality.
In the context of CCA, Char's point was a pretext to bring about another silly chapter in an ongoing dick measuring contest with Amuro, who has shown that he'd be happy to never see the bastard again. Char's point was as hollow, pathetic and fake as he was.
Zeon might have the higher body count but Griffith was more personal
Zeon has higher casualties but Griffith has a lot worse morality
Imperium of man would beg differ
The only reason Griffith doesn't have a 5 billion kill count is because he doesn't live in a futuristic scifi setting with a massive human population, and he's probably still in the setup stage of a mega-atrocity. Whatever he's trying to do with Falconia will probably have a death/population ratio proportional to the Gundam genocides.
If you think about it the real question is. Can Conan beat both of them?
Conan > Guts
Yes
yeah
The Barbarian? Yes.
The Detective? Also yes.
I'd say that Griffith is probably worse. At least in context. Griffith basically subjugated all of mankind, and there's effectively no good way to fight against him. it might very well end up in humanity being eternally enslaved. Especially if *SPOILERS* IoE has anything to say about it. Meanwhile at least in Gundam, if humanity REALLY wants, they can spread out among the stars, and Zeon wouldn't be able to catch EVERY human fleeing. Plus there's people actually fighting them decently, so it's not a pure stomp like Griffith is doing.
I love watching loli (the media reveiw youtuber and comic writer based in america)
Good to see another Micah. Praise the Sun! May your struggles be fruitful!
Griffith didn't view the Hawks as friends, but it's not because of what he claimed to Charlotte, where he said a true friend would have to be an "equal" in his eyes.
It's because he viewed his men as possessions. Toys for his war game. A means to an end, and nothing more.
But then Guts came along, and while Griffith tried his damnedest to make sure Guts knew he BELONGED to him, dehumanizing him right out the gate...
...Guts not only didn't catch onto that red flag, but in the following years, Guts' sincere nature and longing for companionship rubbed off on Griffith.
But Griffith didn't view this as a positive. That part of his humanity DISTRACTED him. It was an obstacle that got in the way of the kingdom he wanted.
Griffith didn't want to think about the guilt he felt from all the people who died for his cause. He wanted to PURGE it. To cut out that chunk of his humanity.
Griffith sacrificed the Hawks, particularly sticking it to Guts and Casca, because 1) he wanted to punish them for DARING to defy his control, since to him, they were his property, and 2) he couldn't afford to keep them around anymore, because he had grown too attached to them, and he didn't want anymore distractions between him and his kingdom.
But it didn't go through the way he planned. The Skull Knight intervened and SAVED them. They're still alive.
So now Griffith has a dilemma. He has to deal with keeping the empire he stole (it once belonged to King Gaiseric), but also his grudge/longing for the two people who wanted to be a genuine friend to him.
He already slighted Guts and Casca on a nightmarish level, so there's no making peace with them. He can only try to ignore them.
But if the recent chapters are any indication, he failed miserably at that. Since they're still alive, he wants to try and put them back under his control, but with so many factors working against this, he's doomed to topple his own house of cards.
But we've yet to see how that happens...
Zeon's kill count: 5,000,000,000
The Yuuzhan Vong: Those are rookie numbers. Gotta bump them up.
Imperium of Man: Amateurs!
ICOG: Lol, lmao
Cool. Didn’t know you and Micah were friends. Been a while since I saw his stuff.
As someone who loves both settings, it comes down to one simple question.
Which is worse in your eyes?
Evil born out of selfishness or evil born out of Benevolence?
Both, at the end of the day, do the same thing, and bring about the destruction of entire people for their own ambitions.
But differences are their justification and how they go about them.
Evil for selfish reasons, is easier to dismiss and hate. It’s doesn’t hide what it is.
Evil for the sake of benevolence (as Zeon tries to paint itself as)
Is also just as insidious, because someone who believes they are doing the right thing, can justify any atrocity and see nothing wrong as long as it benefits the greater good in their eyes.
Well, one committed war crimes, and the other one did a little bit of trolling.
I’ll let the audience decide which is which.
🎩
🐍 no step on snek!🇺🇸🇭🇰
“Guts, you’ve been punked. There’s cameras hidden everywhere”
@@callsigncoyote7931"the arm is real tho"
TAL's section on Griffith was excellent. Not much context on Zeon but I think Micah's done a pretty good job painting a picture of what kind of bastard Zeon is.
Sieg Zeon!
Also Char did nothing wrong.
Did not expect TAL to talk on Gundam. Do more!
I do think the question of who's worse is kind of meaningless, honestly. It's like asking if hitler or stalin were worse.
Didn't know Micah was still around. Good to hear from him.
"There's a deeply Semitic influence in the press. It is Semitic and I am sure of it. " -Patton, post-WWII
Oy vey
Patton also executed Germans at every opportunity. Not so le heckin based ethnat, huh?
Patton tried to warn us and was murdered for it.
Very nice video, and good breakdowns. I hate to be the "ACKSHUALLY" guy, but when it's brought up I gotta point it out because it's a MASSIVE misconception in the modern day: the Nazis weren't Fascists, they were National Socialists. Italy was the Fascists. The whole conflation of the two came from socialists trying to run cover for socialism, lmao.
I do love how many socialist conveniently misses that Germany and the USSR were allies once lol.
@@galmekarch-fister1240they were not. Otherwise Britain and Japan were allied as well.
@ kindlingking
Look up the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.
@@kindlingking That's cute. Sit down, kid, and listen to those who actually know a little bit of history.
Dude 2 of my favorite TH-camrs in one video. Definitely going to be a top tier vid!
Next lets compare who's more evil
Tod from breaking bad or Lalo from better call saul
Already know this is going to be peak
The thing with Griffith is that I think a lot of people separate him from Golden Age to Post-Eclipse.
Golden Age, he's extremely manipulative sure, but most of what he does mainly harms bad people who ultimately have it coming. From Julius to the Queen, excluding Adonis' death. Beyond that, it's just that he does put his men at risk in order for his plans to go through, such as the attack on the fortress. Not much of it is that heinous compared to what anyone else is capable of, he just has the ambition to see it through.
People can more or less just see him as a good twist on the generic Fantasy-Hero concept, where that's how he presents himself, but we see deep down he's capable of underhanded things.
While i agree that Griffith didn't kill as many people. After he became demon, those he did kill would suffer in hell forever.
Zeon is no match for Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz.
That guy demolished the earth. First try. Reduced the human population to two. Went into every possible timeline and demolished the earth. Then, he demolished the backup earth. Then, he created a Roko's Basilisk with infinite perception omniscience and omnipotence, so that it could destroy the earth for him in every possible time line. And he only did it to clear the solar system to build a hyperspace bypass (that may or may not have been built depending on the timeline)
That's just to say, Zeon doesn't have the greatest kill count in all of science fiction.
That kill count would be imperium of man
Both of them are evil, but it's better we ask ourselves why some people think these things unironically. Zeon was made as a clear example of fascism, and yet people seem to argue for it. In my experience, it tends to be because our immediate world is neoliberal, and so many young men feel abandoned by the neoliberal system that they want to cheer on anything that would logically oppose it. Acceptance has turned into bigotry and favoritism, and human decency into the enforcement of pronouns. In this world, is there really any question why we support the bad guy?
Well, let's also not forget that Zeon represents spacenoid independence... which is SUPER based. It's easy to see why people support Zeon, even with the war crimes.
For fans of The Expanse, we have Marco Inaros, the worst of both worlds. It's pretty great.
SIEG ZEON!!!
Impressive. Very nice
Let's see Griffith vs Johan in the did nothing wrong competition
Griffith makes Gihren look like Ruben Studdard.
Also have to count Zoltan’s actions on the list of Zeon’s crimes.
Wow. You guys are doing a comic? Looks badass!
I mean like any other war, if zeon had won they would be the good guys,
But the idea of zeon isn't bad the problem was their leaders
I saw this earlier and it's just as good the 2nd time
In terms of sheer number of deaths, Legend of the Galactic Heroes is probably up there. Ship losses for fleets are regularly in the tens of thousands, and even the smaller fleet ships boast crews numbers in the thousands. And those are just for space battles - battles on planets or breaks in logistical lines causing mass starvation or rebellion ratchet those numbers up a fair bit.
Reinhard did nothing wrong.
Imperium of man : amatures
The way I see this; it says alot about Griffith, that his scale of evil, that of a lifespan of an individual, could be compared to the evolution of a whole nation.
Zeon and they had good cause. Don’t @ me. 🤷🏻♂️
Btw Space Runsway Ideon. Both races are killed off at the end. Also by Tomino
I think Griffith is evil in a more personal way. With Zeon it’s a war, it’s easy to call for bombings and drone strikes when you don’t see the people being killed.
Griffith sacrificed his own friends, and did the worst things one can morally do, even if it didn’t benefit him in any way more then spite.
But numbers wise Zeon technically killed more people.
Quinton being into Berserk would be the only good thing about him.
I learned recently that I'm like 3 degrees of separation from knowing quinton personally and that scares me. (Friend of one of my best friends sibling)
@ 💀 just imagine the war stories.
Imagine Griffith leading Zeon...
TAL did everything wrong
Griffith is ambitious to a fault
Didn't the Zabi family usurp power of Zeon by assassinating Zeon Zum Deikun since only Deqwin says he was the successor? This sends his surviving family into hiding, one becoming apart of the White Base crew and the other vow revenge. Considering it is a war and both Zeon and the federation committed serval war crimes, It's just one side prevailed and were allowed to sweep theirs under the rug - and you really cannot judge an entirety of a faction on the actions of the leaders, especially with how the Zabi family took to power. Many Zeon troops defected over the Zabi family leadership. The result of them losing the one year war, causes factions like the Titan becoming very much jackboot thugs, leading to AUEG no doubt mentioned in already.
And, as Yoshiyuki Tomino himself said; _ZIEG ZEON!_
Griffith on the other hand you can judge a man based on what he does a lot of evil, is evil because evil.
Yeah I remember tomino doing that at a panel. He was shouting sieg zeon with the crowd. Zeon can be pretty cool & interesting.
I do agree it's too much of a broad stroke to say all of zeon is bad. If I recall Garma & Dozle & Ramba Ral are seen in a better light by most fans & in universe because they genuinely cared about spacenoids & their own men.
Like overall Zeon was bad. But Federation is the better of the two & is heavily flawed & needs some form of reform.
@@TheMatthardyv1 Eh, naw Federation is garbage. The colonies were oppressed and had minimal representation if any in the EF. They were basically vassal states with very little autonomy. Also, the EF invented colony cleansing in response to Spacenoid peaceful protest. When you know how the EF operated and their crimes pre-OYW, you start to understand how Zeon could come to such an extreme act like dropping colonies and meteors on Earth.
Griffith didn’t have a point, at all. I partially side with Zeon. Just partially. Aside from the Zabis.
But then again, they’re still an unrealistic utopian ideology.
Arguably, the Zabis were better than Char in this regard(aside from Giren, he was about as delusional.) they seemed to be more realistic in their idealism.
And watching the video. Loli mentions this.
C'mon bro... it's just a tiny little colony... just one or two or three bro... How much harm can it do bro...
Love Zakus tho
My take is that Griffith is at least trying to be a sensible ruler, while Zeon looked at the single most botched operation in their history that saw billions killed and went "Let's do it again." And they constantly field the most ridiculous machines they can make in battles staged in heavily populated urban centers, causing millions in collateral damage and anywhere from dozens to thousands dead each time they do a sortie.
Being a regular person in either universe would be hard, but if I can make it to Falconia, I think my chances are better there than in any place Zeon operates in.
I think it is a question of what they would be willing to do, if Griffith had to kill and rape and torture a billion people to be king he would in a heartbeat, I can't speak for Zeon, don't know much about it
Griffith is hands down.
Spacenoid independence is based. That said, dropping a colony on Earth was... such a huge escalation like holy shit, why. However, let's also not forget the 100 years of Earth Federation oppression on the colonies. Zeon didn't invent colony "cleansing", and that itself speaks volumes about the EF.
Loli and shota face reveal? I don’t know if that’s his real face or not but let’s go
I very much believe that deep down Griffith is just a selfish child that has never grown up and has been living in a personal fantasy story were everything always goes his way and if it doesn’t he’ll make it so.🐱
Heres my slight counter arugment to Zeon:
When people say "Zeon did nothing wrong" They're more specifically talking about almost all the soldiers of Zeon and not the Zabi Family, Haman Karen, or Char. Zeon's War was a War of Indipendence because the Federation was basically Strangleholding them like the British did to the American Colonies and Zeon wanted out they wanted to be indipendent from the Federation and not have to pay taxes and stuff.
However the Wrong people got put in charge of Zeon time after time and turned basically revolutionist soldiers into warcriminals
Thats the thing about Gundam it shows the Good the Bad and the Ugly OF BOTH SIDES the Federation were not Good guys they treated EVERYONE in space as second class citizens. Heck they did WORSE war crimes to people AFTER the one year war what ya think Zeta Gundam was about?
Correct me if I'm wrong. But AUEG had funding from some people in the federation, former federation & other groups correct?
After the dakar speech it somewhat became a "cival war" with AUEG with federation vs Titans & what ever groups in the federation sided with them? Neo zeon was the wild card in that war if I recalled.
Gonna need to rewatch Z
@@TheMatthardyv1 No your partly right
The AEUG is the Anti Earth Uninion Group and are a Anti-Federation group formed to remove the Corruption within the Federation mainly the Titans but were primaily made up of Ex-Zeon Soldiers who stayed behind after Operation Stardust or didnt join Axis. They did accept any and all peeps regaurdless of background both feddie and civilians. And eventually they would form Londo Bell
THIS. The EF is the king of war crimes. People forget there's a 100 years of EF oppression before the OYW even starts. The colonies were oppressed and had minimal representation if any in the EF. They were basically vassal states with very little autonomy. Also, the EF invented colony cleansing in response to Spacenoid peaceful protest. When you know how the EF operated and their crimes, you start to understand how Zeon could come to such an extreme act like dropping colonies and meteors on Earth.
Griffith split about the God of Destruction in half and created an entirely new reality………
what a crossover
Griffith merged the worlds bringing fantasy monsters like dragons and Giants to the rest of the world that wasn't prepared to fight that kind of a threat. Not to mention the implication that Griffith might sacrifice everybody in the New Kingdom Christmas is not only directly and indirectly responsible for a lot of deaths but a lot of those souls in the afterlife. Are likely going into hell sure the warlord killed billions but at least he's only wrecking them in life Griffith is screwing everybody he kills and likely throwing their souls into hell
I honestly believe getting instantly killed by a meteor is much better to get ripped apart by a dragon or a another messed up fantasy monster just for my soul to go to hell because Griffith sacrificed his friends to be a Cthulhu
😂😂😂
Well this was a nice surprise
Oh... So thats why the zakus make me remember of the ACs from Armored core.
Both are machines that commited unspeakable warcrimes.
Loli and the vanilla gorilla talking about the biggest anime villains a match made in heaven
The answer is ALWAYS Griffith.
I think scale and genre muddy the waters in comparison. Also (hypothetical scenario) if you kill 99% of humanity in Gundam there's still 100mil people around. If you do that in Berserk, there's about a million left. Across a planet. Not enough for extinction, obviously but much closer. Raw human suffering is bad but so is erasing culture, history, knowledge, entire ethnicities and civilizations enduring systemic collapse because there just aren't enough people left. Griffith almost ensured that Falconia was it. Everyone under HIS roof. Space Natzis are bad but what if they also unleashed plagues, demons and supernatural entities across the galaxy.
Before even watching I've saying Griffith !
My neighbor was an unapologetic “Miklos Horthy did nothing wrong” king of guy (even more ironic he was Jewish).
To be fair, Horthy was kinda based and was in a tough situation. Same with Tsar Boris III.
Well out of all the Axis leaders, Horthy was probably one of the better ones, still a war criminal but nowhere near the level of Hitler.
Could you make more videos on gundam
LMFAO THATS THE LAST COMPARISON I'D EXPECT
im really looking forward to the new gundam series since Anno is involved and i love Evangelion
Griffith is always the worst.
Zeon ofc because Griffith DID NOTHING WRONG.
The answer...yes
Griffith is worse cus he gay so that double evil😈
Zeon killed like 10x what griffith could ever kill
Damn Zeon did all that?! Idk kinda ba...(bonk)
zeon after one year war are driven by various motive some are justifiable backlash some are just dumb zeal
but griffith man
almightyloli thrashing shortfatotaku despite the situation looking like a "change the channel" situation lately? Just rumors,thought I'd ask the horses mouth.
Neither Griffith nor Char did anything wrong. Nobody like you would call anybody a dork to their face.
Griffith or OJ?
Buddy, Zeon ain't got shit on the Interim Coalition of Governance from the Xeelee Sequence.
or the average Stellaris player but I digress.
Is this the start of Loli's Gundam arc?
Saying the R word is going to have this video age restricted just so I’ll