Wages in the Metalworking Industry: Where Are We Headed? | Machine Shop Talk Ep. 35
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 มิ.ย. 2024
- Staff retention... What do we do about the fact that some restaurants are paying more than a machinist's salary?
We have to ask ourselves: what incentive are we putting on the table for individuals to WANT to get into metalworking when there are opportunities offering higher salaries? We must consider what we need to do as an industry to stay competitive.
The burning question is: how do we increase wages, thus passing along the cost to customers... and not lose them entirely?
Machining and metalworking professionals on the forum were discussing this very complicated issue and bringing forward different strategies to approach the issue. With talks of replacing their entry-level positions with robots, some even think that this rise in wages is temporary, but could that be problematic thinking? Join the convo on the Practical Machinist forum here: www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...
At Lakewood Machine and Tool (Ian's Machine Shop) he is focusing on competitive pay and the benefits he offers his team. Ian believes that keeping and increasing staff is more than about money. Investing in a work culture brings extreme value and creates a work environment people want to be a part of.
Go to minute 9:13 to learn more about how Ian invests in the work culture at Lakewood Machine and Tool and why it's so important.
How are the rising wages affecting you as an employer? As an employee, what are your plans for navigating this climate? Let us know in the comments and stay tuned for more videos!
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One reason for this. The tire shop that mounts your tires, charges $120 an hour... our current machine shop rate is $60 an hour. No one values the skill of our trade anymore.
I agree with you there. I suppose it’s not economical to ship your car overseas to make the change - I’m hoping as things are coming back to first world manufacturing that it does become more valuable in more people’s eyes!
Its because worship of free market capitalism shipped all the jobs to China. This will not get any better until wages in the US are on par with China for a lot of jobs. Thank you neo cons and neo libs who all have their investments in China and have been waging war on their own citizens for the past 40 years. Trump was a minor speed bump for globalism and they went absolutely psychotic to get rid of him.
Inflation rate is complete horseshit and wages have definitely been going down over the past forty years. If you based inflation on the most significant purchases in a persons life IE house, car, medical bills and not inconsequential things like consumer electronics and subsidy supported agriculture), if you made 11 dollars an hour in 1980, the equivalent is 84 dollars an hour.
@@johnnycab8986 thats cool idk shit about politics but dont really care i just got to worry about mine and find ways to make money on the side at the end of the day who realy taking care of you but you
@@johnnycab8986 look up michae saylor interview with tom bilyeu on bitcoin take a lil risk that your willing to loose you have the knowledge of inflation how your dollar today cost less Tomorrow
@@Houcnc Crypto seems like digital pokemon cards
Went to a 2 year mechanical design school studying hydraulics and mechanics, then a 2 year school learning both manual and cnc machining. I have well over 2500 on equipment from school alone. Yet the restaurant I've worked at since 10th grade still pays me more than a shop would offer. I really don't like being a chef, never pursued thus career just did it for money, but I just can't justify leaving to go into a shop with how bad the pay for a highly skilled trade is. It's easier to cook shrimp scampi for 23 an hour than run a mill for 12.50.
We had a young guy at the machine shop quit to work at home depot. Better pay there than skilled lathe work crazy
i started (pre-cnc machines) as a know nothing person off the street when i worked as a machinist. over 8 months or so(according to the handbook i was given on employment) i was doing things, running machines, doing set-ups and tear downs all within the company's level of tolerences and should get a substantial raise. when i asked the foreman about it, he said he'd give me .25 more per hour. so i walked off the job. i was nothing special mind you, but i was hired with one standard and when i achieved the 4th or 5th standard i asked for a raise and he insulted me. with cnc machines i figure that the only person making any money in the shop now is the programmer. everyone else is loader or unloader so min wage. with automation comes lower human wages.
Sad but true
Damn bro, good luck
A raise of 3% when inflation is 6%, is a pay cut not a raise.
My Son “16” was working in a machine shop making 12 an hour. He started in the deburr department and was moving his way up to assembly. The business was going to help him become a machinist if he wanted to pursue but the wages for machinists in this shop was 18-20 an hour. He now expedites tables for a busy Mexican food restaurant and averages 29-32 dollars an hour. He did the math real quick and it didn’t add up to stay at the shop. It’s a race to the bottom.
What?!?!!
yeah but the skills he will acquire at the machine shop he will never gain in the restaurant business
@@GioBaby of course. The problem is the machine shop is always being threatened by cheap offshore labor and automation. Some of the machinist in the shop had been there 20 plus years and not making more than 22 dollars per hour. The skill is great to have but if it doesn’t pay the bills well it’s time to move on
@@eljefe4473 I think it’s about negotiating and knowing your worth . Im a CNC Applications engineer but it took me 10 years to get to this stage . I was fortunate enough to go through an apprenticeship at the beginning of my career. It’s a long game to get the big bucks ya know ? It’s not just quick money and go like the restaurant business. You really have to love what you do and be willing to take some pay cuts along the way to keep doing what you love . You just have to shop around for places that are willing to pay you for your skills . Don’t settle for less , learn as much as you can , 3D Modeling , Programming using Cam-software , Set Up’s , etc . That shit makes you extremely valuable. You gotta talk the talk and be able to walk the walk . Some guys just let shops walk all over them and I think that’s very messed up .
I'm an auto mechanic and I'm seeing the same thing in my industry. I pull in 28 an hour, but I'm also buying all my own tools. And that was after a rather substantial raise from moving shops.
"if you're in a place where you can't have an open conversation with your employer, in my opinion you shouldn't be there anyway" Well that seems to cross most North American employers off the list.
@SABRESHOP one day the parasitic professionals will be rounded and put to work in camps. The work will set them free.
No kidding right? lol.
@@mackk123 Oy gevalt, you just made an anti-Chosen remark from correlation.
As a life long machinist, I can't tell you how many times a chat with my boss has hurt me. Other employees watch you, either as you're heading to the bosses office, or speaking on the shop floor. One or more employees start a rumor, about either *money, *snitching, or *you're quitting. Chat with the boss goes fine, goes nowhere, he/she lies about opportunities the company has for you and you're treated like shit, for a while, for having approached your boss in the first place.
@@mackk123 nervous hand rubbing intensifies
One HUGE problem with many companies is that somehow its leaders / owners think they are entitled to earn a 100 times or even 300 times what their low-wage employees make.
23 years in the trade. My 25 year old son makes $18 an hour more than me 5 years into HVAC. Last job I'd tell anyone to take right now is entry level machinist.
I used to occasionally go to the shop with my dad in the 1960s. I asked my dad how much money the toolmakers in white overcoats were making as just a curious kid. He told me "'bout 22 an hour". I liked watching what they were doing and really was interested in what they were doing. Fifty years later, the wages are barely any higher. Sad.
22 an hour in the 60s had to be equal to 40 or 50 an hour in todays terms?im a c operator making $22 now.looking for an out and lost all interest
@@Sparaco487 I almost went into Cnc machining but decided against it do to pay went with the elevator trade now I make $76 hr as opposed to $33 hr (friend who stuck with it)
My dad worked as a machinist/tool and die maker from the early 60's until about 2005. His wages basically stayed stagnant or dropped during that entire period. Sure, there are machinist jobs that pay well, but it's far from the norm.
@@bigbird799 oh yea elevator mechanics make great money. And you're not working with microns either.
Tool making is an art. It is not a cnc operator or programmer who uses mastercam to make a program and who would have no way to make the part if they lost there precious DRO on a manual machine. The toolmakers back in the 60's were insanely smart and super creative when it came to making parts. That is why they made $22 an hour back then. And why machinist today make 22 an hour still.
I'm a 10 yr aerospace machinist currently making $20/HR. I remember about 6 months ago a coworker mentioned a local fast food place was hiring nightshift for $20 HR. It did not boost my morale.
Mechanical engineer here. It’s crazy how little work I do compared to the machinists. I just have to model and create prints and they bring it to life. Making near double what machinists make for half the work they do…
And that's why I'm in school to become a mechanical engineer lol
It is the owners fault if they can't stay competitive. Most guys suck at organization, tooling, bidding etc. They suck at systems, process, documentation and leadership in general. Same for any industry, machine shops just happen to attract a crowd focused on "I did it for $5 an hour so you should too." Can't teach an old dog new tricks.
I agree. Staying competitive means that competence of all aspects involved in operating a manufacturing business needs to be constantly improving and updating. Most owners don't reinvest enough into their companies and get left behind on all the trends.
This. They don't train. Can't find good help. They want to decrease costs before upping sales because its a bunch of stupid boomers.
current company i'm working with are bleeding money and just refuse to change suppliers despite paying $4 more on some items such as $5 ($9 for them) bearings.
to my understanding, it's literally just the owner getting snacks from them every week that keeps them around...
As a machinist my boss / owner was literally taking trips on African safaris and shooting cudu, baboons, gazel, and even elephants. All of which he had mounts of in his multi million dollar home. Moreover, he was so rich he had his snow machines air lifted to Colorado from Michigan so he could go riding,
The issue is GREED plain and simple ! When you pay your machinists $12.00 hr, terrible benefits, no dental or optical, no 401 match and yet have disposable income like that all I can say is, WOW what a piece of work! I don’t see too many restaurant owners living in multi million dollar homes ect.
It’s just GREED gentleman ! This industry is poisoned by it !!!!
Not all but I've definitely seen and worked for a few like that.
Yup, i've seen some of that, its actually admired now in the world we live in. Winners are bosses, losers are shopfloor workers.
Taylor Turning Products had a help wanted sign at their business. I filled out the application. After a week or two, they never called. I went back to fill out another app. When I pulled into the parking lot, a supervisor was outside shooting the breeze with a young employee, pissing time away I supposed. Went inside, the man from outside came in , and I told him I was there the previous week.
He gave me a quick interview. Then showed me a part and asked me how long it would take me to make it on the lathe. I told him I didn't know, "Hey, it takes as long as it takes".
The supervisor said he was looking for a Crackerjack lathe operator, and all kinds of b.s.
I didn't get the job, happy I didn't. I have 2 mills, and 2 lathes in my garage. I charge 40 an hour though I don't have enough business to break out on my own.
Try Crane Technology in Rochester Hills.
Seen that at every of the 8 tool die shops I worked at !
lol- your boss just went to Africa too?
I’m a young machinist, coming up to 4 years + two semesters at a trade school and not 3 months ago I was making $18/hr sawing/programming/setting up and running our parts. I felt I was making too little so I started looking around and saw another shop hiring at a significantly higher wage for much less responsibility. I told my boss I’d be putting in my two weeks, but if he wanted to try and match, I’d consider staying. After a few days of haggling, I’m now making $27, got an extra week of vacation and a few other nice benefits. Shops can and will pay better, you just need to ask and show them why you’re worth more
Hey, good on you man! That's the way to do it. That's why I put in the part about talking to your shop foremen / shop owners before just hitting the bricks - they may not know what the reality of wages are these days, and you can leverage it into a better situation where you are in a lot of cases. Well done, negotiations are tough but it looks like you killed it!
@@iansandusky417 it is the managements JOB to pay you as LITTLE as YOU are willing to accept. If you show them you have options to make more money, because you clearly understand your value. Then they raise your pay...how high? As high as you can negotiate it. Thats what makes it a negotiation. They are testing YOU to see how close to your own value you really know you are. The boss KNOWS how much he makes off you. He knows this. Your compensation is a calculated deduction from that amount. Your pay cap IS NOT arbitrary...however your pay rate may very well be.
One key factor...gas...give a $&!t. If you care that matters. If your current employer doea not notice , move on. At some point, someone sees your gas and skills and then light goes off. You cannot buy the fact that someone cares.
the squeaky wheel gets the grease. closed mouths don't get fed. make some noise and earn your worth.
@@chrishayes5755 right before i quit my job {started my own shop} i went in to the boss and said i need my pay doubled or im leaving. Which he did. I then walked out, and told everyone in the shop to walk up to his door and do the same thing. Which they did. About 2 weeks later i quit, and the entire shop still has their wage which they greatly deserve. Most my guys went from 12 to 25 bucks an hour. My best guy went to 35. At least now its worth their time to show up.
My lifelong career in machine work is winding down. Honestly, when young guys ask me about it, I tell them it would make a nice hobby, but look elsewhere if they have any illusions of wealth.
I hear you. Ive been in the same business for 46 years. Wages haven’t gone up much in the last 20 years. The demand is there but not the reward.
Amen.
I hobby in metalworking but pay the bills by programming computers.
I bet you look at an object and run it through your head how its made.
Its a mental disorder machinests have. Lol
So I have been getting the high hard one!
If its not bad pay, its getting you're ass ridden and then being expected to literally make up shit to do while you wait for someone with experience to decide to start teaching you to actually run the machines. No thanks, there are jobs that pay more and expect less where people will be perfectly happy with me coming in 3 days a week. I can take time to either work on myself and maybe find a way into a job people actually find desirable or just have a damn life outside working all the time for the sake of it while I still have some youth left in me.
The shop I'm at now is on it's 3rd owner. The 2nd owner equated CNC programming to "a big video game. You push the right buttons and parts come out". Our current owner told me he doesn't understand why he has to pay my kind of money to find my replacement (I retire end of this year). He says he should be able to grow what he needs from the people he has. I've tried training them. Trust me, he can't.
A friend of mine's daughter just got a job managing a restaurant. She's 19, and they're paying her $49k a year, roughly what I make, and I program twin spindle, twin turret lathes with live tooling on both turrets (with no CAD software, I might add).
So, to any of the young men out there thinking of getting into machining as a career, I'd advise against it. You'll get no respect, and in the long run, you won't ever get rich, unless you want to get a job where you work 60 hours a week.
I've only been doing this trade 8 years and I make 58k a year before overtime. The money is definitely there but you need to improve your skills at an accelerated rate to get more money and be willing to switch jobs every year or every 2 years to demand a raise that beats inflation. Many companies have gotten lazy and do 2% to 4% annual raises across the board so really no point in staying at a shop more than 3 years. I work night shift and for the most part just operate even tough I can program, set up, write macros etc. My job just doesn't demand it from me so I never told them I actually know how😂
@@ISILENTNINJAI I think you're getting into the trade at the right time. I see the demand for talented machinists on the rise, since so many of them (like me) are "aging out". Good luck to you young man, and remember: Your reward for doing more work is 'more work'.
@@audievickers132 thank you! Just bought me 2 bridgeport and set them up in my garage. With some overtime and good luck I hope to buy a small cnc and hopefully do work on the side and if everything works out, start my own shop.
I work in a areospace shop and I was at a party where people were making 30% more scooping ice cream. My brain just could not comprehend this. There were 18 year olds it grocery stores making as much as me and I just feel a bit less prestigious, the only thing I can brag about is that we send stuff to space.
I definitely hear you man, and pride doesn't pay the bills at the end of the day!
The walmart distribution center and other big box warehouses near me are paying $17 and up, some $20-21 with benefits. Some even higher. The shops are paying as low as $13 for experienced machinists. And they are very angry they have to pay that.
Yet a decent concrete crew of three men with way less in equipment then the cost of a VF1 charges $9K plus material for 1 day finishing a slab.
Walmart distribution pays some up to 25 or higher now. I know couple guys making over 30 just moving pallets into trailers. Got teachers in there. People with bachelor's and master's degrees. The local machine shop was offering 13 for no experience and 17 with experience.
if you are an experienced machinist and you accept a job at 13 an hour YOU are the problem. not them. lol. the problem is those "experienced machinists" are nothing more than parts loaders that smack a green button every 3 minutes and 27 seconds.
that must be a big slab!
@SABRESHOP nice story but working for $14-15/hr is dumb.
@SABRESHOP If you knew how to read G code and understand the difference between part zero and machine zero you wouldnt crash your machine.
Recently put in my 2weeks notice, just watched this and you nailed down everything I was feeling.
Worked in aerospace for almost 7 years and was still getting paid 24$ with no raise past 2 years. It hurt but I had to move on.
There’s a reason your Kennedy box has wheels. Machinists have always moved jobs a lot. I’ve worked all over the country. That being said, it’s pitiful what some places offer. I get calls from recruiters for jobs paying $20 an hour for experienced machinists. The job shop work is out there. Get yourself a Prototrak and a good lathe, stuff it in your garage and you’ll be crushed with work.
@SABRESHOP I know it’s possible because my friend did it a few years ago. If you build it they will come. If you can do good work. These online places like Xometry and Fictive, and the shops in China do sub par work. The amount of stuff I’ve fixed that other shops fucked up is impressive. I’ve seen it time and time again over the years, shops get big in the boom years, start getting bloated overhead, fancy machines, big shops, then they can’t staff up or find someone to run that 27 axis lathe, or the economy tanks, and they’re out of business. If you have a paid for Prototrak and a good quality manual lathe sitting in a shop you own, you can take those $200 jobs that those big shops can’t. Put your name out there with the car clubs, the farmers, the light industry, and the heavy equipment repair places and you’ll be covered up in work.I’d buy a tap burner too.
@SABRESHOP I’m running a brand new Haas DM-2, not the best machine in the world but still pretty good. The parts that come in from other shops aren’t even that bad for the most part, they often got 99% of the way there, then fucked one thing up. Shitty finish on a mating surface or a hole missing or not tapped. I was brought in to bring mfg in house so it’s becoming less of an issue. I have a 1996 Prototrak bed mill in my home shop and I bring parts home to work on sometimes because it’s faster and easier on it than the Haas. A good machinist can make good parts on just about anything. I’ve talked to guys running big jobs for major companies who literally have been so squeezed on their per part price that it’s the value of the scrap that makes the run profitable. I’m just saying it’s ok to be a rust bucket shop. There is money out there for you, and if you make a run at it and miss you’re not out much. I don’t want to fuck with net 90 billing, chasing down big jobs, having employees , all that BS.
@SABRESHOP I’m here in Central Ky, we have a bunch of automotive manufacturers and a lot of shops have contracts with them. The conditions of the contracts are horrible. The customers often have their parts for 90 days before they pay for them. I know one guy who got stuck with 30,000 parts that the customer never picked up or paid for. The shop that was working for scrap still made money because the volume was very high and they were running the parts in old mechanical Swiss lathes.
@SABRESHOP israel sells USA tech, illegally, to the chinese and have been doing so since at least the 1990. Rosenbergs stole atomic secrets and gave it to the russians.
You just brought up a really good point I didn't even think of. Is the "Gig Machinist" taking away work from larger shops? Is that why there is such a struggle for pay?
My experience of working as a machinist in the UK I would describe as a lot of hassle for very little reward and certainly no appreciation or recognition for doing such a highly skilled job.
Same here in the U.S.
Yeah same, been working in the field for 17 years. Only 3 years ago, when I quit a shop because of being denied a raise for 2 years and told I was never viewed as a valuable employee, did I find a good company to apply my skills at, and am being being treated quite fairly now.
Lots of mental abuse, backstabbing, bullying, etc. Really, I'm glad whenever I see a young person enter the field, because many are chosing not to.
Yup same in Canada
@@Guy5505 I'm a welder I end up in shops backstabbing has been my experience when I do a good job. I like to keep moving because the day goes by faster I end up outproducing people.
Similar thing here in Europe . I tell anyone who’s young and interested in engineering “ forget it “ go to stack shelves in the local store .
The years it requires to attain a skill level necessary to be proficient just doesn’t make sense. Engineering makes a great hobby and a shit job.
Engineering or machining?
@@andash123 Engineering and Machining go hand in hand . You need to know how to read and interpret blue prints , GD&T , 3D Modeling , Cam software, etc . You need to know if things will work and how they work . Knowing how different materials react to different cutters , speeds and feeds etc . Before you can be a great engineer such as in my case you must first be a great CNC Journeyman . Its like when a Doctor does his Practicing. Same goes for engineers . You do your apprenticeship for 5 years , Then you move onto Cam-software, Solidworks etc , there’s lots of stuff that go into this career .
@@GioBaby I definitely agree, it's why I'm so interested in machining. But at the end of the day there's a big difference between an engineer and a machinist though. And I don't know what engineers in Europe get paid so low as to recommend people to avoid becoming one, that's weird
@@andash123 Yes there is , the machinist or journeyman is in charge of bringing to life the workpiece into the actual product and the engineer is the one who designs it . If you like working with your hands and using cam software and doing some light modeling then machining is your best bet . If you wanna sit at a desk and design all day using solidworks and doing fitting simulations , testing things constantly and molding sims then I would suggest engineering .
stock shelves *for now*
continue to hone skills until the market swings back. Or develop your own machining business.
Machinist have been way underpayed for a long time.
Be in field for more than 30 years now. There is no way around it now you have to pay up. If the word gets out that your shop is a revolving door it’s game over.
Also want to add. My shop has 10 Machinist including me. 6 of them are between ages of 55 and 63. What happens when these guys retire? Who fills their shoes? Sometimes I look around me and wonder how long will this last.
This is the real sticking point. With the skills gap already being so real and present, add little incentive to get trained as a machinist - and the current skills gap may unfortunately just be the beginning if we don't start doing something about it.
@@iansandusky417 kids who learn cura and 3d printing already know about gcode and programming a machine
@@schlomoshekelstein908 kind of, I've been messing around with a printer and cura, it doesn't teach you much of g code, certainly not how to write code efficiently. That said, hardware is getting so powerful a 1000 line program to drill a hole isn't the problem it might have been.
That said, the kids are learning how to handle a modeling environment and how to deal with situations where the machine react the way you'd thought it would.
Everything is changing for sure. Will it be better? Who knows but it's going to be different.
do you hired a foreign worker sir?
@@schlomoshekelstein908 Not always. A lot of these "kids" are learning to replicate the processes of others but spending almost no time on learning why or how that process works. Take away the internet connection and supplement with the Marlin (or Klipper) g-code reference pages, you'll see which ones learned what they are doing and which ones learned to copy processes. Half the time when I encounter problems I find myself invalidating claims before I just give up on looking and take to science it out myself.
Personally I would love to work with actual machining equipment. The only time someone let me near their machines was a fab lab that I was installing cameras for and that was simply walking past them and being watched with nervous eyes as I nerded out at the machines knowing what they are and what they can do. If you have to ask, no I didn't touch, just was a bit of nerd heaven for me and highly disappointed I was only there to install their cameras. Not like I could afford the schooling such labs ask for, had to drop out a couple months into what college I had attended due to being really bad with finances.
Great post! As a degreed manufacturing engineer who left the CNC business in the early 90’s (quality control, CNC programming, set up man), the race to the bottom was in full effect (company bidding jobs to just get work, little profit). Average operator wage in 1993 was $10-$11/hr (Mazak mills and Mori Seiki lathes). Worked for a great company, though no future income wise with every job shop trying to survive…..the OEM procurement managers/buyers had CNC shop owners by the “short ones”. It decimated the industry. Lesson I learned…..never let a customer lower your profit margin if you’re doing a great job (little to no rejects…think 6 sigma…on time or early delivery, exceeding their expectations). Pass on work that’s not in your wheel house. And diversify so no industry or single customer can break you (ie you’re only as good as your last job….think like a buyer). Keep up the great work! Society desperately needs skilled machinists!
Great insight! Crazy to think average operator wage has only gone up around five bucks an hour in the last 30 years, really shows just how bad that race to the bottom sent things spiraling!
Spot on....race to the bottom.
I keep seeing employers not willing to train and a lot of the time the employees that offer training/apprenticeship programs are usually an empty promise. You will always have a skills gap if no one is willing to train.
Training is similar to preventative maintenance. You can skip it for a short time but it will come back to bite you. It is investment in the future of your shop to have your employees spend a couple hours a week making themselves more valuable to you.
“Oohhhh we can’t find anyone with a decade of experience willing to take college grad wages booohooohooo” fuck off
Exactly, although other companies will swoop in and get the employee after a few years so it has many shops hesitant.
@@bigbird799 That’s what happens if you can’t pay your people according to their value. You train them up, then pay them more because they’re more valuable. That’s part of the cost of doing business.
People generally don't leave jobs where they feel like the company is well managed and they are valued. One of the easiest ways to make them feel valued and improve their opinion of management is to allow them a small amount of time and resources each week improving their skills occasionally in a way of their choosing. In a machine shop context means having the operator learn set up procedure, the set up guy doing an online class in g code, and the code guy learning about new types of equipment that that may or may not be in the shop like a laser cutter or welding. This seems like the shop is never going to run at the efficiency you think it should but after a couple months it should mean your set up guy is just checking the work of the operators instead of doing the entire set up, the code gets scanned for errors by the set up guy and the code guy is constantly looking potential different ways of doing things and ways for the business to expand.
The ones willing to train teach you nothing really. Just how to be a drone. They don't want you knowing shit.
Great advice on having a dialog with your employer! Recently had an offer at a place that was 3+/hr more than what i was at. Talked to my boss and then the owner and they came back with an offer that was far beyond what i was even expecting! Loyalty is something that should be expected from both employer and employee!
That is rare nowadays.
I’ve only ever worked for scumbags, can’t even imagine.
True but very rare
Being a mechanic is the same way. Our shop rate was $95. Nine years ago, now $150, my pay has only gone up about $3.00. They know everything has gone up, but think we make too much now as it is.
What's the barrier to running your own shop and take the difference?
I need that job
@@kei2142 capital
I was a Manual / CNC Machinist for almost 30 years... I went through the apprenticeship for about four years, had to master manual before the boss let me touch anything CNC, invested in about $5K worth of tools, and made excellent money - up until the boss got in with some "young guns" 20 years ago, and discovered he could become a middleman and have everything made in Asia! After working temp for 4 more years, and finding out the hard way that for all I knew and could do for a company, my main problem was that "I cost too much!" - I then got out of the trade, hung up my apron and safety glaases, and sold or scrapped most of my tools... I'll never do this again, and I'm going to be 60 years old soon - too old anyway
This is a discussion I've been having a lot lately. I'm an electrician in the East Texas area. We've always had a problem with finding employees that are wiling to even show up, let alone apply themselves to actually learning. And with a totally green helper it usually takes a good six months before they reach a level of competence to really be of value.
My boss starts people at around $10/hr. I told him just a few days ago (while he was having a conversation with a fellow employee who was asking for a raise) Walmart and McDonald's both start people out higher than that. Why would anybody go work in the elements, crawl in tight nasty attics, or take a risk getting electrocuted or falling off a ladder when they can go work somewhere else for more?
It doesn't make sense to employees that can't look ahead but if I had known I could work 2 years for $10/hr before starting my own business as an electrician making $120k+ by the 2nd year because the money printer pours into mortgages and home builder loans I wouldn't have gone to college and I would have scraped by at $10/hr.
@@gorkyd7912 very few people seem to have the ability to look ahead that way. Even fewer still have the ability to apply themselves to learn the trade well enough to do it on their own or run a business
@@falconeer99 Yep there's not really an well-worn road to follow to become a business owner. If you want to be an employee that's easy, there's schools everywhere to learn the skills employers want then you apply for the job, you'll be guided through every step by your employer and by about day #2 all you need to do is show up on time. But there's no easy path to becoming a business owner and the requirements are changing constantly. When you're starting from $0 you have to be the owner, bookkeeper, accountant, salesman, and worker all at once so it's intimidating. But I just don't see how people survive today as employees, the money is so insanely bad, even $30/hr would be a hard sell to me but employers that can DEFINITELY afford higher wages are still paying $18/$19... higher than the $14 it was 5 years ago but you can hardly afford to live in a van for that little. No wonder people are quitting.
My fiancées 16 year old daughter got a job as a hostess at a Mexican restaurant near our house. $18/hr + tip-out for “how many, right this way” DFW suburb
I left the Machining industry after 15 plus years because a factory in my home town was paying more that a machinist wage for an entry level position with no experience. I now work less hours a week then I did in the machine shop and make more per hour.
I was making 16 an hour and my manager wasn't interested in what I had to say about needing more money. It was a great day in my life when I backed my new dually up to the dock door with my business name and dot number on the side and without saying a word went in and rolled my box out the door!!! You could cut the tension with a knife! Started making 3x more per year on my own.
I'm in the same situation. I've been working for a owner operated roofing and gutter business for almost 15 years on and off now and I'm making $64 more a week than I was in 2007. I've stayed b/c he's easy to work for, I get to do what I want, and the hours are very flexible but I'm to the point now where something has to change. I need more money. I need at least 2 times what I'm making now if I want to buy a house but that's kind of hard to ask from a small business with 2 employees, 1 being the owner.
I feel vastly underpaid and his entire business relies on me showing up. If I leave he can pretty much shut down his business b/c he's not going to find anyone willing to learn my skills and get paid my salary. I'm probably making less money these days considering inflation over 15 years as my salary has not increased to even keep pace. 40% of my monthly income goes to just gas and food. Something has to change.
So the problem is, There's only so much profit in hanging that gutter. The home owner isn't going to pay double or triple what there paying now. Why?? Because everything elese has also gone threw the roof. This hyper inflation that this administration is not only allowing it to happen. But there PUSHING it to satisfy the extreme left that are bitching that if they don't get 5 TRILLION in "Green Spending" for all there climate change lies. That there going to blow up the 2 TRILLION $$ deal. In July of 2018 the United States produced more oil than it used on a daily basis. Cutting out the need to buy it from, Lets face it. People that are not necessarily our friends. And whats this COCK SUCKER in the White House do in the first week??? He starts shutting all that production down. Killed the pipeline that Canada already spent BILLIONS on from there side. Stopped all future exploration on Federal lands. And wants us all to be driving battery operated cars or riding bikes in the future. Well let me tell you this, Semi trucks don't run on Unicorn Piss and aren't lubricated with Pixy Dust. And if you got it, or are wearing it,eating it. A semi truck hauled it. Or diesel powered train hauled it also. The inflation in this country has been caused by the Administration at the helm if this country. And they don't give a shit about you or me. All they care about is there buddies that are going to make BILLIONS off our our pain and suffering. And they'll do ANYTHING including destroying this country to get what they want. And if that mean your untimely death, Then you and I where just Is collateral damage. And they'll keep doing it till they destroy all of us. Honestly I don't have a answer for you. Because if he was crack open his books, You'll likely see that he's making less than you are when all the wages and bills are paid. How do I know this?? Because we own 5 semi trucks with 5 drivers hauling steel from Cleveland to Chicago and other surrounding areas. And the same thing applies in that industry. There's only so many ways to split a dime, let alone a quarter. And if things don't change quickly (in the next 4 months) I'm selling them all. Because I'm not going in debt to continue to take $$$ out of my pocket to pay to haul other peoples Frieght. These trucks are paid for, now is when they are the most profitable. And there just making enough to break even. And im not going down that rabbit hole again. We did that in 2007 and 2008. Good luck to you.
youre a loser. you take advantage of the job he takes advantage of you. its called a relationship. welcome to the real world. you expect better pay for being slack as fuck? not gonna happen.
@@DieselRamcharger How do you know I'm being slack? You can't be slack on a 2 man crew, you prick.
At the end of the day you need to take care of you. I had a similar situation where I was the only employee and the boss/owner was getting too old to do the work anymore. I had to walk away because it just wasn't what I needed. My boss retired when I left.
What are you making a year and what state are you in ?
I love the whole machining trade. I always have. But I've never jumped into it because the pay SUCKS. I've changed careers a few times now and every time I've looked at it. Every time I decide the pay sucks. I have 10 years as a plumber, 6 years as a carpenter, and now 5 years as an industrial mechanic.
Stick with plumbing. I should have done that instead of machining. Way better money.
how you liking being an industrial mechanic?
I own a business and this is creeping up on us... The hourly rates we can charge and still get business haven't changed, (Except to go down) since the 1980s! It's to the point we are losing people, with zero ability to do anything about it. Many times, people think owners are driving Ferraris and lighting their cigars with tewnties, but it is not like that. I hope something breaks, and bill rates go up before we have to close the doors.
I absolutely hear you - it’s a frightening situation, being caught between customers wanting to hold pricing from the 90’s and every other cost on the shop end going up.
One word: globalization. Cheaper offshore. That's finally coming to an end. But now, we don't have the shops or the skills....
machinist of 13 years here , totally agree with your perspective ,iam not a business owner but your speaking truth
No shit.. the person who can't even get cheese on the bun makes more than a person required to have thousands in tools and be skilled.
fucked up eh?
@@rohanahmed3088 all I can say is.. let's go Brandon..
As a third generation machinist, I see the pay rates going south too. A skilled Toolmaker can make a nice salary if they get in the right industry. I have transitioned to a maintenance machinist/millwright and couldn't be happier with my salary. Just over 100k and have been for the last 7 years.
Yours is the direction I'd go if I had a do over, and I run my own specialty tooling job shop. I've found I have a passion for taking care of equipment and keeping it clean and tight. Way more interesting than production.
"If people are going to offshore, they have already done it."
I agree. Machining in America will be of four types:
High end work where American technology and skills give us a competitive edge.
Short run, custom or prototype work where being able to talk with the machinist is needed.
Repairs and replicating no longer available parts.
DOD work which requires US manufacturing.
There are probably other types of work, but I think these are the main types.
Oh by the way businesses look at "I can do my job from anywhere." differently.
They will eventually see that as "Your job can be done from anywhere, including low wage nations like Kenya, Romania, Malaysia."
Expect a big export of white collar jobs over the next decade.
My advice to young people when choosing a specific skill in a career.
Make sure the jobs require at least 10-20% of the work to performed by a human being on American soil.
Building trades, healthcare, live event production, sales, upgrading expensive machines, etc. There are lots of well paying jobs that are hard to export.
CNC is so much more accessible I see machine shops dying but machining being everywhere. I see it being a part of every operation but not being a specialist trade anymore.
@@adammcallister9675 CNC machining is not like 3D printing which does not take much skill or cost much to get started. With CNC you have to set up fixtures and tooling. You have to understand tool sharpness, tool geometry and machining operations. There is a lot of skill involved even with the advantages CNC machining gives you. And then there is the issue of cost. Ever price out a CNC mill or lathe and all the tooling needed to go with it? You are talking $10K-$100K or more. Remember it is not only the cost of the machine, but the cost of the tooling which can double the price.
@@robertharker My father was a machinist for over 50 years lol. Dude. I know. New companies do not farm everything out anymore because it is far easier to manage quality in-house. CNC machines are cheaper than ever right now. If you need a million of a part and you actually do your own assembly, the mark up you are being charged more than pays for your own setup and new biz is very wise to this, especially those running 5S and lean manufacturing to churn out a finished part. It used to be more efficient to centralize machining but now it is not bc machining itself has gotten cheaper whereas all the other biz costs have gotten more expensive and impossible to control outside your doors.
Right now new companies are building automated work cells. The only people hiring machine shops are Big Biz that can force people to compete for zero profit lol.
@@robertharker i'm currently getting quotes for a trumpf truprint machine
There are so many companies that could easily justify the quotes i'm getting for having a machine like that in-house.
White collar jobs expect people to speak good English. Machining doesn't.
When I was an apprentice there was a guy at a neighboring shop that quit in the 4th year of 5 to start an Electrician Apprenticeship. We thought he was crazy but the joke was on us. We still talk about that 20 years later.
Here in Az the machinist is getting paid 20-30 hr but now have to wear multiple hats. (CNC mill, lathe, grinding, Manual machining, Programming, Tool making) all in aerospace working with very close tolerance.
The sad reality is skilled machinist have been loosing ground and undervalued for the past 35 years. Its sort of like an animal going extinct once the population gets too small its lights out.
Almost like this has been planned.
hate to break it to your but much longer than that. grandfathers were in it and they certainly were not wealthy people. i'm over 50.
Because the services industry is better for the economy. Shortsightedness and inflation stupidity. When there is rampant inflation the labor market goes squirrely.
It’s GREED.. PERIOD !!!!!
the reality is that most the people who value themselves skilled machinists....arent.
We used to say back in the 90s, kinder care hires for more than we make. I loved being a machinist, but left because there is no money in it. Went to road construction and make 130k plus. I never looked back. But for those of you still machining, something has to change!!
Same for aircraft mechanics.
I would love to get a job like yours but without connections it's impossible
@@chrisb8776 keep applying. That's how most people get govt jobs.
@@noneyaratman714 I meant a job like road construction I don't think those are govt are they?
@@chrisb8776 The good paying ones.
Thank you Ian for taking the time to make this video. I like your approach with you business model. I hope this video spreads like wild fire.
I started toolmaking in the 60's and top toolmakers made near what lawyers made, today I pay my people in line with what lawyers pay their children's allowance. What the problem?
Kentucky is the greatest state in the USA 🇺🇸
They have broken up the trade. Hiring button pushers at low wage then having a few programmers/set-up at a decent wage.
The problem is you don't want to pay your people better
@@chrisb8776 Cool! You should look out our customer base. This year one took most of our work to India and another is moving to Mexico but you have a very thoughtful answer. Very cool!!!!
@@ky-gearguy1742 look my boss had the same problem the work eventually came back because India and Mexico couldn't deliver the same quality on time as we but when the work came back my boss increased the price to the customers significantly and gave no one a pay raise so our quality went down and the customers bought their own machines to do the work themselves there's a lesson in this
This industry has for years tried to under bid their competition. This has been happening for decades. I read in a book from 1965 that a top machinist made $15 an hour. I have had shop owners tell me back in the 80's they could make payroll from 2 machines. Meaning profits were very high.
Staying competitive today is key. Best thing you can do is really hammer R&D. Test tools, test tool paths, test better mounting solutions. Keep a clean environment and keep a work area clean and organized. Try to make production methods so employees can run multiple machines comfortably. Wish ya the best of luck in 2021 and beyond!
For sure am doing a 5S and standardizing clamping methods where possible. Best thing I did last year was renting a small storage unit, getting some clutter off the shop floor and keeping things simple and tidy.
Been a machinist for 9 years I started making 12 an hour now I’m over 30 an hour I love what I do. But to be honest being a machinist is a mental headache. If driving a forklift or doing some other bs job pays the same wouldn’t you prefer to do that? I scrapped a part over a year ago. It was an inconel ball for a ball valve and I got my ass yelled at. So it’s fear I have in my heart about scrapping a part. So it’s a mental stress. Not bitching but man if a clean up guy is making 25 or so an hour i need to get more money as well. Programming and running a Cnc lathe is something else
I hear you buddy. I worked for so many guys that yell that the nervousness you get makes it even harder. Just not worth it.
@@3dee106 being trapped inside a shop for 10 plus hours a day. Monday thru Saturday. That alone is stressful. But man I see an opportunity for me to run a mill. I been on the lathe for 8 years already still got a lot to learn but if I get that mill down I’m out of here and looking for a better shop
I have scrapped an aerospace part or 2 (400k) and I will never forget the instant pain and regret I felt each time.
I just read about 30 comments below about machinist/toolmaker wages not keeping up over the years. As someone who started in this trade in "84 at $7 an hour, I agree. But the one thing that nobody mentioned is the cost of insurance. That is what is taking up a lot of those increases. The insurance and medical industries are bleeding us dry.
That must be tough - we're lucky in Canada that that isn't as much of an issue - I pay for my guys to have dental / vision / drug benefits, but the healthcare is covered.
Ian, the problem is not off-shoring as you state. Read a book titled The Walmart Effect. You’ve become a commodity, the purchasing agents know how to beat you down, yet at same time, refuse to accept wage/material price increase pass-through requests. They will always shop the commodity to the lowest competitor of yours, regardless if its on-shore or off-shore.
Great video! I teach a machining class and have been in the trade for over 25 years. One of the main things at least in our area, Chicago-land, is that machining is unorganized. Now, all the other skilled trades are also struggling for people, but a lot of students are abandoning machining as a trade to go for an organized union trade; and you can't blame them for it. The single thing that would help the machining industry as a whole would be to organize and unionize to standardize wages and recognize the skills it takes. That being said, machining is so competitive and people can pop a couple CNC machines in their pole barn and get to work; which makes the organizing part nearly impossible.
I went from machining to working in a preschool for kids with special needs and on the whole having a much better time of it because my aggressive union will raise hell if I don't get my two full 15 minute breaks and 30 minute lunch every day.
Working with older teachers instead of machinists is great too. I don't even get a choice when it comes to training on the job too, a need will arise and they will coach me through the mindset and approach I need to take, and I will do it.
This is the definition of a skilled trade. It is a shame that machine shops pay their machinists very little. I worked in a machine shop where I was expected to set-up the machines, line people out, trouble shoot the code for new parts, replace tooling for everyone else in the shop, and run product. The most I ever got paid was $16 an hour. I have a trade school degree in machining and I knew more about programming than the programmer in my shop as well as proper feeds and speeds. That's why I don't machine anymore, even though I loved it. I'm a Millwright now and make make more money, with more time off, and less stress.
As a retired machinist I made in the low 30 $ an hour in the Chicago area towards the end of my career. I moved to northern AZ 3 years ago, and worked in a shop for 2 years until my retirement, and my pay dropped to 20 $ an hour with no insurance. So some of it depends on your location as shop owners in small cities take advantage of that.
Good points! Take care of your employees and they'll take care of you!
I went to school 2 years for welding ,and now work for Amazon .
I did CNC machining from 2000 to 2010. Worked in plastic extrusion, tool and die, and aerospace. In Toronto area. Company bosses had me running 2+ mills and programming with Mastercam and couldn't even squeeze out $23 an hour. After trade school and blood and sweat to learn a very difficult trade that was peanuts even then. And not to mention the stress that comes with it (even without them yelling at you to go faster). I burnt out and left trade I really loved after 10 years giving it my all. I commend company owners like this guy who cares about wages and workers being happy, but in my experience they were/are few and far between.
Trained a young man with potential on large horizontal bore machine. One day in conversation he mentioned always wanting to be a train conductor. I instantly told him to pursue that job and told him the name of a community college a friend of mine working BNSF attended. I hope he moved on.
Honestly I think its just a reckoning of old shops that haven't embraced technology and efficiency processes such as LEAN. I see a lot of waste and people still manually programming for hours which master cam could reduce to minutes. Tracking costs and spindle on time is important too. Not saying you have to be a bean counter tight wad but to stay competitive you need techniques and devices that will help you stay with the profit margin.
I think you're right here too. If you don't have any real metrics as to how your shop is performing, you have no way of implementing any changes to make it better.
I totally agree. Our shop has 12 machines and 6 machinists. For us it's all about quick change tools and quick change chucks and i write programs in our Esprit cam software. One of our machines entire day runs single parts. Run 1 part, set the machine up for the next part, rinse and repeat. We've got our setup down to 5-10 minutes and I can program these single parts in about 15 minutes. Quick change tools in dedicated capto holders with saved offsets save a crap load of time. And then when you get the big runs, Robot machine tending. Who the hell wants to stare at a machine all day and hand load the same part for hours?
It's the race to the bottom boomers that don't understand anything besides myopic bean-counting.
I 100% agree i think it is finally high time shit workers and companies are facing the consequences of not getting with the times. I still argue to this day with people running manuel machines about how garbage and useless they are and they will argue that they serve an important purpose while also telling me how little amount of money is in this industry. Meanwhile I'm doing the same job and making triple what they do and the boss is taking a ton off the top. Im glad to see this shit die out. How any millienials think manuel machining is useful is telling of whats happening
I guess I'm lucky or just weird in that I just really like the trade. Getting handed a part and having someone say "I need a mandrel to fit this part" or "this part on this piece is wrong, can you fix it?", thinking about it and coming up with a program in mazatrol or mastercam, setting all the tools then running the program, then seeing whatever I made fix into the piece just right, or seeing the calipers or micrometer dial in to exactly what I was aiming for is just a great feeling.
I'm moving in a few weeks and already have another job at another machine shop lined up starting at $21. My big brother could have gotten me a job starting at over $30. But this trade is my passion. Not enough people have one.
my passion is making enough money to survive. first and foremost. if you're willing to let your employer exploit you because you just love the work you're doing, then by all means.
@@jordough4495 i actually pay my boss so l can work for free.
Bro I had passion but after years of abuse by plant managers and owners I unfortunately lost it. And wages never went up.
I think that's why we all got into it but after you talk to enough lyft drivers that make more money than you you'll start asking yourself what the logic is
That's how much I was making in the industry as a top tool and die maker nearly 20 years ago. My passion left me when the owners moved everything to Mexico and closed down the shop. Myself along with my co-workers who were good friends as well, felt that we were very much underappreciated. I got out of the trade but still do machining as a hobby at home. Haven't looked back. Don't you either.
I run a Goldsmith shop with slightly different variables vs. A machine shop but I think your take is 100% spot on. We have applied the exact same principles, give the staff a good work environment, weekends off and most importantly pay a living wage with raises as often as we can. Without our staff we are dead in the water and they are worth it.
Being upfront with customers that your costs will increase at least 3-5% every year due to inflation. This means the "owner" needs to keep that 3-5% dedicated to employee salaries, and not look at it as a means to make more money for his/her pockets. We need more owners to be leaders and treat your employees like family. I know this won't be for some owners as they feel they're the ones that took the risk and they should get the rewards, however if it weren't for the right people you wouldn't have the rewards, check your ego. Having an environment for people to feel like family to come in and have the ability to prosper just makes life enjoyable and builds relationships. If you can look honestly, keyword there, and you're paying according to the market and people aren't motivated, or cause troubles, go ahead and let them go. There are people out there eager to replace them and learn, and be a part of the team.
Many employers in the US Including my last two employers both told me that we couldn’t talk about wages and salary… This is federally Illegal, I loved the last company I worked for, I didn’t get the kind of money I need to have when the last raise came around(I was paying 14K for health insurance a year,it was killing me)… I was contacted by a recruiter who told me to go talk to a closer company with a lot cheaper insurance, I talked to them and was immediately hired and this effectively doubled my Salary… I wasn’t planning on being part of the great resignation but here I am. My old company offered me the same amount buy couldn’t help me on the insurance cost.
I'm an engineering consultant that also has fabrication capabilities. Mostly I focus on design and analysis. So I regularly farm out work to shops. Most of my machining is quick turn or prototype work although I also will do the occasional production run. Part pricing has been crazy this year, even quotes we are receiving from overseas suppliers have been very high. Makes me wonder where all the money is going if not to the people doing the work.
It is pretty crazy. I’ve had to raise my prices significantly just from materials pricing alone. I order a skid of aluminum extrusion several times a year - in January, it was ~$2000, and then in September it was ~$4200 from the mill with a 14 week lead time. Seems like the perfect storm of problems happening right now.
Money went to the raw comodities
Making basically same wage as when I started toolmaking 27 years later and this is a aerospace mold shop doing tight work and one of the better shops in town to work for ! Sad I’m quitting this trade next month I bought rental
Properties and can finally make some real money now
Trained as a Sheetmetal guy, work now as a metal fabricator in New Zealand. I will put the figures in US Dollars for you. Been in the Manufacturing trade 34 years, current wage $23/hour, charge out rate $78/hr cost of average house $715,000.00 So yeah it's tough. Should have ditched it all 25 years ago and got into IT. Engineering has always been a race to the bottom . Love my job but when someone can buy mass produced stuff for $15 and if I make them as one offs for $350.00 they think I'm a rip off. We've got used to cheap goods and now complain when the local stuff costs way more.
It's a really painful situation, no doubt. I actually stayed completely away from the one-off game for a long time because of that very reason - very rarely does a customer realize that by the time you program, set up, and machine the part and three hours have gone by at shop rate. It just ain't worth it. I don't know what the solution is, but a reckoning is certainly coming, whether we like it or not.
Same. I quit This year because I have 3yrs experience going on 4yrs. $16/hr then I see a warehouse paying $2.50 more. So I quit. Then they want me back for a $1.00. I laughed and told them that doesn't keep up with inflation. Then he upped to $2.00 and willing to move me night shift. I told them no. (I'm not stupid). I told them you can hire me when you want to pay me $20.00. (this is also a aerospace companies that had a hard time keeping employees. I lasted a year and most employees lasted 3 months.)
I have over a decade of cnc plasma/torch/drill setup, operating, and programming. I got approached by a company two years ago that offered me $13/hr as their maximum pay and actually argued with me when I told them I needed at least $20/hr.
Your insights as an employer are so valuable! Imagine trying to have an honest conversation or negotiate with the human resources director for a major corporation that might make more than 100 times what the employees are making?
I work at a shop where they lost employees to other shops willing to pay more. They brought in unskilled worker at sixteen dollars an hour. And set up a system where they just loaded parts and pushed a button. Within two months they lost those employees to a meat production company starting their wages at twenty dollars an hour. I've heard the great environment talk since as long as I've been in the business.... it gets old.
Couldn't agree more. "Company culture" and "fantastic work environment" should aid the general want to continue working somewhere, but at the end of the day they're absolutely no replacement for a competitive wage. It's an 'and' situation, not an 'or' situation in my opinion.
Yup (graduated third from the top in my class out of 50) hydraulics certification .
Get offered 17 to 20$ a hour.
Warehousing at general dynamics 33$ a hour!
Fawk my education I’m a warehouseman now.
All jokes aside, I searched and wasted a lot of time, interview after interview with smaller businesses . Years of watching your boss remodel his kitchen three times. While watching my coworkers drive cars that barely run just to afford to pay rent and still barely afford food.
Big government hates small business but everyone became greedy in the USA and now the working class won’t just pay for it but the small businesses are going to be filtered out, I truly believe that.
The economy is going to reset if not at this rate a Friday night large pizza will be 73$ in two years 😂🤷🏻♂️
I hate general dynamics their tolerances suck
I have been at the same place for over 3 years, in Washington state. We have not got a raise in over 2 years.
That’s a huge problem, for sure. Especially with inflation the way it is, you’re essentially making less money now than you were two years ago. Might be worth looking at a chance, it’s a sellers market right now!
@@iansandusky417 we moving to bitcoin
Find a different place to work, or learn more and work your way up higher. I’ve been getting pretty steady raises for about 8 years at the shop I work at.
Any business that isn't giving at lest annual raises to keep up with inflation, even if you don't gain any new skills or responsibilities, is effectively cutting your pay.
A good example of how I've seen it done was my previous job as a designer before going independent designer/machinist: we always got a guaranteed company-wide base-rate raise at least once a year of something like 1.5-2% to account for inflation. So even if you were at the same rate/tier you were bumped up by that much regardless. Also unless there was some objection or performance reason not to, everyone would jump to at least the next pay level every year as a raise. (If there was exceptional reason they might bump you more steps than that but it was rare)
Of course what it meant was that this system held back some who wanted to move quickly, the bosses had no real incentive to bump you 3-4 levels at a time if you were really busting ass and wanting to move up quick. IT also meant that they'd basically put off raise requests during the year, they'd be like "wait until the yearly adjustment and we'll look at it" and once it passed and you only got the expected single rate bump you were kind of SOL.
Just for a little reference, I drive past a sign every day in Everett, WA from a Frito-Lay warehouse. They're hiring, offering $22-$25/hour with a $3000 signing bonus. This is in an area with several aerospace machine shops within a few miles, quite likely not able (or not willing) to compete with that.
The story of my life. Started in 1980 and kept thinking I'd earn more based on the knowledge and experience I would gain. Four year apprenticeship in Tool and Die. Four years of night school. Started with a highly recognized shop for producing top level machinists. For many years I was hired on the spot just for having worked there. Immediately jumped to CNC training when it was introduced. I love techie stuff and became one of the top CNC machinists in the early years of their development. Excelled at every level, yet it meant nothing until the company would not know how to solve a machining problem. Then I was their hero. But as soon as the problems were solved I'd be told to retreat to my machine and "we'll call you if we need you" attitude would ensue. The day I'd hoped would come, never came. And if someone did come along and make a respectable financial offer, they immediately wanted their investment to start on day one. They wanted blood from a stone. No time trying to become acclimated to their disorganized mess, just make chips and we'll fix it later.
Between greedy shop owners and large non-union shops crying about Japanese, and then Chinese competition, unless you had one of the few programmer jobs, you were treated with total disrespect. Even after proving myself to know ten times more than most programmers, it didn't matter. I embarrassed many a top earning "engineer". I was the grunt and because some kid spent 6 months learning how to use AutoCAD, I was told I had no place in questioning their idiotic machining methods. Many times I caught them using my methods then telling the boss they improved the job. I turned down programing offers because they wanted me to take a massive pay cut since I would need some time to become more proficient with the software. And no one was going to pay for my schooling since I was keeping their shop floor running. The first 15 years mostly milling ( 4 and later 5 axis ), then turning and huge mill/turns the next 15.
Meanwhile, my know-nothing ex brother-in-law was given a union job as a "machinist" because his brother was the machinist union rep, He started at the bottom earning twice as much as myself after I had already completed my apprenticeship. He spent 30 years at that company earning huge dollars to sit around waiting for something to break, where he would then turn a shaft or drill a hole. And he retired with a great pension. Basically, CNC destroyed the pay level of the manufacturing industry. Companies pressure machinists to "just push the button", while at the same time they want quality to be 100%. And naturally they want the parts yesterday.
I hated unions because, as my brother-in-law proved, it was more about who you knew and how well liked you were when it came time for moving up the ladder. And learning is done at their rate, not your own. So who won in the end? He did. I got the knowledge and he got the money. I now have massive amounts of WORTHLESS knowledge. Even if someone wanted to learn, ( I taught an endless amount of people of all ages ), there are no longer any trade schools for learning Machine Shop like the one I went to.
America was sold-out by politicians ( Bill Clinton among the first Presidents to do so ), decades ago. Once upon a time, no matter how insignificant or small a part might be, if it was to used by ANY U.S. government agency, it could not be manufactured overseas. While there still exists manufacturing limitations to many parts used in our military applications, we almost had a Chinese company take over parts of our telecommunications system last year. What does that tell you? Billionaires and mostly Democrat politicians are selling our country to China, and or, the highest bidder. Trump was starting the process to return thousands of manufacturing jobs and the media NEVER showed how successful he was.
The safest place any machinist can be is with a company heavy locked into the government. Not in workload, but in their connections. Ninety percent of the time the government is not consistent enough, so you have to have a lot of other customers. The company has to have a customer base wide enough to deal with the down times. I was screwed over by so many companies that my first question in an interview was "who are your customers". Then we would talk money. Which by the way, you should never talk money up front. It looks bad.
I wasn't applying to be a temporary contractor. I wanted a long term job. If they told me that more than 75% of their work was for just one customer, I walked. That said, in the last years of my career I did take a job against my own rules only bc the pay and benefits were so high I couldn't resist. The company had recently been bought and the new owners were desperate for highly skilled machinists. High tech, difficult to machine materials, and very close tolerances, (.001 - .002 on a 3 ft. and larger diameter),and parts weighting up to 2-3 thousand lbs.. I retired from there.
Not many are going to read your comment. I did not, but I bet you had a lot to say.
You're blaming democrats for sending jobs overseas and praising Trump for bringing thousands of jobs back? Modern democrats dont care about workers, very true, the only ones that do are hated by their own party and seen as demons by the right wing (Bernie, AOC), but right wing is even worse and all Trump did was line his own pockets. Its not any politician that sent your job away and kept your wages stagnant. Its capitalism itself, the factory owners. Support the politicians that call for worker protections and progressive tax rates that hit the factory owners not the workers. Trumps tax plan actually RAISED taxes on workers earning less than 70k, that means you and me brother.
Reagan started with the union busting and regressive taxes and its all been downhill ever since.
I did. Thank you for taking the time to write this.
I’ve been welding 25 years and in the past few years fast food has started paying what the low end welding jobs have gotten away with paying for years because of illegal labor. At this point I’m doing maintenance rather than welding because welding blows unless you are union or a pipe welder....
There is no complication at all ,at some point they are going to realize that they lack CNC Machinist Jobs and need them back they going to raise the wages and raise the cost of machining the parts
I don't disagree with you - we're having to do it across the industry. The sticking point, if there is one, is that it's a lot of price increases on parts going out the door - material has gone up 20 - 100%, depending on the grade or metal, electricity prices have gone up, transport, you name it - so the selling price of the part is also going up. The issue may be that if you're doing work for a larger company, the debate on cutting you out of the equation by bringing the work in house or outsourcing may get a lot more fire to it if your pricing is becoming uncompetitive.
It is a situation that will, eventually, get smoothed out - I just hate to see people lose their livelihoods / businesses in the meantime, and it's happening unfortunately.
The overseas pricing is gonna rise as well as the cost to ship.
There's a guy in my industry that sells aircraft kits made in the Czech Republic and latest news is they may bring the kit production stateside since between the rising EU labor rates and the cost to ship a kit via container, all incentive is gone.
Yeah the shipping thing might smooth out over time but plenty of people have been talking about returning to domestic sources to bolster the local economy and to reduce the growing uncertainty of shipping if similar issues crop up down the road. So focusing on those selling points with clients seems to be a big help.
I don't understand how some places offer $15 an hour starting while you could work as a cashier in a retail store and make the same.
I agree, that's a little ridiculous, especially here in Ontario where minimum wage is $14.50 I believe. There has to be incentive for people to enter the trade, aside from the ability to make good money "someday."
@@iansandusky417 there really isn't. Been doing this for two years. I know more than just pushing buttons but shit doesn't look good at all. For lots of industry's
@@Bash-hw3ox I hear you man, it’s not just a machining industry problem - I wish I knew a real solution
They place I work at starts a 12$ an hour for parts loaders…
Thanks for this. I think the future of a functional machine shop lies in one that has its own products in conjunction with service work. Retention of staff and a realistic idea of what it takes to keep them is a huge step in the right direction toward being able to charge more, because your quality control should be near perfect with better estimates.
I quit machining 10yrs ago, able to setup, program, design ect, for the lack of pay!
I moved to an area where the average income is 1000$ I'm happy. I do software, electronics and lately mechanical engineering (CAD / CAM). Some small CNC mill and CNC lathe can fulfill everything I need so far. Big parts I can just outsource and I prepare everything properly so things won't take too long.
You're right that wages typically don't go down, but the hoarding if wealth causes those higher wages to mean less. It's not that people are getting what they want, they are getting what they need (in most cases). The servers making $30/hr live in places where a studio apartment goes for $1,500 a month. $60k a year seems like a lot until you realize their rent alone is $18k per year.
Definitely agree that cost of living in the specific areas for sure plays a part!
As a Machine Shop Instructor at a Technical College my hats off to you for taking this issue head on. I believe you are on the right path in your thoughts and actions to try and turn it around for you. It is hard to get someone interested and signed up for the trade when you can get similar money flipping burgers at your local fast food restaurants. But 3 years down the road flipping burgers wages will be very similar as for skilled trades it will have room for growth beyond the burger path. A lot of shops in my area are in the mind frame of we didn't start out in the trade at that money level so why do they expect that much. Well for one a car cost today what a house did back then. Gas, food, vehicle repair, home repair, clothes etc. etc. etc. Has went through the roof. So is it wrong for a machine shop to go up on there prices like everyone else does. HAAS has already sent out emails price increase coming due to materials etc. going up. All the companies going up on there prices can't offer things to sell without SKILLED TRADES building it. I think upping the pay scales is a start to help get people interested in the trade. But let's not forget about the multiple years of skilled people already working in the trades. I think they need some incentive to stay in the trade and realize how much we need them and appreciate them. I think there is multiple layers of this issue that we are facing but I think pay scales are a good place to start in retaining good employees and the start of new ones. Pay scales for flipping burgers have increased alot. So have the price of the burgers. Hasn't slowed down the drive through lines. I thank everyone in these trades for building the lives we live.
Let's work together, trade schools and business together can keep this going if we work together on training the next generation. As a business do you have a training path for employees to reach top skill levels needed from a entry-level position. If you build your employees skill level the quality and quantity of your product will improve. As well as the costomers satisfaction. This is a win for everyone. Repeat customers. A employee that's invested in there work and company because there work invested in them. Having a designated path for a new employee to reach higher levels is a good marketing tool for an employer to help individuals be interested in what you have to offer them. Good luck with your journey.
Don't forget to enjoy the ride.
$35/hr to drive a forklift down the road from my shop. I’m at $29/hr right now. Question is, how long will that forklift job last? Once demand goes down and supply is saturated, that forklift job may dissolve and you’ll find yourself unemployed.
Correct, with the skills of a gnat. Acquired trade skills cannot be stolen from you.
@@laurentianvmx1692 I completely agree with you. Once you're good with your hands, no one can ever take that away from you.
so glad i retired and only "work" for myself from home. watching the devaluing of skilled labor for the last 35 years and working for these awful contractors was a torture test.
The REAL problem is that there shouldn't be this many shipping warehouses around in the first place. Machinist wages would most certainly go up if the market wasn't completely flooded with cheap import goods. The machinists in the U.S. are trying to compete with the factories in China that hardly pay living wages, with terribly unsafe working conditions. In a legitimate U.S. economy, parts would be made HERE. They wouldn't get shipped from overseas in a box to be pushed around a million times by a forklift guy making more per hour than someone with a higher skillset.
Thank you so much for the video!
In my province they just cancelled the machining course at the collage.
What seriously?! I know some places are dropping tool and die but that’s news to me - and very sad news at that
The machine shop owners are gonna have to stop buying multiple vacation houses and big money boats .
My story exactly left a 15 an hour job for a 24 an hour. Former boss in the last year has bought a vacation home in florida and hunting property elsewhere. Former shop has only 5 employees left two of which will be retired in less than ten years.
-sees boss has fancy stuff
-votes to ban private property to pwn the wealthy
-car, home, cash, tools, belongings, cooking utensils confiscated for the state to give to the population ethnically replacing the current one who's wages were climbing too high
-wealthy business owner promoted to inspector, now attends synagogue, owns another boat, all new ethnic class working for them for fraction of the cost.
Many such cases in Russia, China, USA, democracy is the paid off ever growing mob, "voting" against your interests.
@@mackk123 We need to negotiate for higher wages.
All the owners always complaining they aren't making money, That is total BS most of the time they are just too greedy they cry they are poor yet they are driving 100k trucks
@@mackk123shut it downnn
I quit welding. Been a journeyman Boilermaker since I was 22. Started in HS. I am 35. Quit this year to be an Electrician.
Not sure if the grass is going to be greener on the other side… I started as a welder myself, but I only lasted 2 years before I went to electrical. Been a jman electrician for nearly 10 years. I will say that there are a lot more career opportunities as an electrician than a welder. I took a job a few years ago where I am still an electrician nominally, but I have a lot of other responsibilities. From electrical, you can get into power distribution, automation and control, residential or commercial, or lots of others. But the Jman rate for just an electrician is not super.
@@kurtisb100 Boilermaker jman is aweful. In 2008 I was taking home $25/hr paying $8/hr into retirement for old guys at the time. Which was fine, I guess, but it lasted too long. Currently jman 01 electrician where I am is about double what a Boilermaker makes.
My friend is the CNC precision instructor at Diamond Oaks in Cincinnati and he said they may have to cancel his program because they don't have enough students signing up. I don't blame them, the money just isn't there.
As a moldmaker that can design program cnc,edm.finish grind for nearly 40 years I am looking to do something else. I made the same money in the 90s with no computer skills.
I made the jump out in February. Really with the 50hr+ weeks combined with pay $20 on average, while being in control of my own time, not stuck in front of machines. Never stop learning. If I were to go back I would like to purely program with CAM or service machines.
Like it or not we are beginning the 5th industrial revolution where the skillset of a traditional machinist is unnecessary instead passed over to automation. The necessary personnel are people who have strong math, computer logic, and problem solving skills. Which is why the education system is phasing out shop classes except for rural areas.
Just a thought to consider, isn’t Titan responsible for administering machinist courses to convicts? If there’s one thing that shows the worth of the machinist/operator career it is that, the creation of cheaper labor. Business owners tell me otherwise, but if someone is an ex con are they extremely valued, or is it just more consistent labor for a bargain (ex. parole requiring ex con to work)? Its at least how it appears in my region.
@SABRESHOP The shop I worked for had me programming new parts for mill. I was also in charge of fixing machine errors. Any other time they didn't have those things I had to operate. Manager would pull me to help other mill personnel at times. 6 days a week 2 hour commute. Like I said
@SABRESHOP and "tenured machinist", or someone who is actually good with those skills right out of school.
@SABRESHOP lol dude if you still write code on large parts vs using cam for efficiency, that's why you don't make money. Your replies are showing why it's hard to find talent in the trade. Old dogs protecting their positions because it took them forever to learn, when a robot and a young kid who just got out of college will replace him.
Call me whatever you want, I'm not going to sit here and explain myself so you can just be wrong with all your assumptions on what type of work I've done.
@SABRESHOP I've seen what you're talking about with CAM programming mistakes. I can almost guarantee the person programming doesn't know how to use the software. I've seen tenured setup personnel programming and not understanding all the functions of CAM software even though they can generate pieces of the code that they need. You absolutely have to know both machining methods and the software to be able to most efficiently use it. Everything should be modeled into the software, to the ways pretty much. That is the only way you will get an accurate simulation. If you don't have an accurate simulation then you will be spitting out pieces not a program.
I think that old dogs running shops currently don't realize this and misuse it by not seeing the time sink into programming as the excellent investment that it is. If done correctly a program should have every detail of the setup including times and production goals. If a tenured machinist receives a program and costly mistakes happen, the blame falls to him for not verifying the setup, dry run, and fpc before production. Do you see where the machinist value is taken away for a more efficient method with skilled personnel?
Having a proper CAM programmer can allow for 2 people maybe 20h total to setup 1 arm, 2 lathes, and 1 mill in one cell running parts simultaneously 24/7 aside from maintenance. So 10000 parts at 10 a part + 2000 for tooling/setup let's say is the bid. That's 102k - let's say 20h @ 100 per hour for setup there goes that 2k. 100k is the potential profit depending on the cost of metal/tooling for the run. This is the future of the trade.
CNC has already eliminated many jobs. The next wave is lights-out machining and short-run automation. In the short term you have to pay employees what the market demands but that doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t look to eliminate or consolidate tasks. Plus don’t overlook the gig market or over 65 labor pool. There are a lot of people out there that don’t want the 40 hour job.
This is an interesting standpoint. Honestly, after seeing what happened to other industries when the gig economy took over makes me a bit worried it could worsen things, but it’s an interesting thing to think about regardless! Thanks for watching!
I was just thinking about this the other day. My little shop can easily put out 200 little widgets per week. That's with 4 mills a waterjet and a lathe all cnc. We are located in a large garage basically. If I wanted to put out that many parts in the 70's we would need to be located in a huge space with rows of machines and people. Now I get it done with 1 shop helper 1 office helper and myself.
I just started as a "Machinist I". Everyone that I work with is a felon, one literally sold her daughter. My boss just got fired for showing up to work on meth for probably the 50th time. Wow, what a career.
Now I make good money as programmer/machinist ME, buyer, etc. but in the beggining I could have made more a a gate guard no skill security guy. It is a shame but no body wants to do this job that requires a level of responsibility and dedication.
I (as a worker) have been killing it. The skill gap has allowed me to get into jobs that would have been out of my reach if I was born 20 years ago. I was able to jump from auto mechanics, to submarine government work, to now aerospace in just 7 years and now I have a salary that would compete with most college graduates in engineering
That's awesome! That's the thing - there are definitely opportunities out there for those who are willing to chase them!
I'm a programmer/machinist/general manager in The Netherlands and we have this problem many years pretty much
There are to few new machinist being trained/schooled because nobody wants to do 'dirty' work
This means shops are fighting to get new staff because there is not enough here
What do we do?
We get new (and cheaper) people from Poland, Croatia, you name it
These new foreign people used to fill those gaps
But now we can find even less people
Therefore you have a supply/demand problem
Because the demand is very high, and the demand is very low a machinst or programmer becomes more valuable, even tho he does the same job as 3 years ago
Which means he can ask more salary because he is becoming more valuable for a company
For example, I work in my dad's shop, and I run the place with every detail
The last few weeks I realised I'm underpaid, in general and now because we can't find people
So I become more valuable for the shop eve tho I do the exact same job as 2 years ago
But this friday I'm also going to discuss a new payrate, because machinsts/programmers that do less than me, make more money than me
And my expenses at home also rises
It really is a difficult situation across the board, I agree. It's tough when wages aren't rising, costs are going through the roof - but skilled worker availability still feels like it's at an all time low in a lot of places. Thanks for watching, I really appreciate the feedback!
Thanks for sharing your story.
Ian Sandusky you also thanks for making this video. This is one of the reasons I love this trade, because there is a community behind it with the same passion
There really should be an opportunity here. There is a huge delay importing products, there are literally 100 ships waiting off Long Beach with 10-20,000 containers each. They sit there for months. Lots of manufacturers are finding that because they saved twenty dollars on parts by having them made overseas that they can't finish and ship their multi-thousands dollar products when their JIT logistics became NIT logistics. This is going to keep happening through at least 2022.
Completely agree with you - there’s a huge opportunity to bring back local manufacturing that’s been lost, and we as an industry need to strike while the iron is hot!
Over 150 ships at present..... it's crazy. We're making parts from scratch and losing our shirts because we can't find raw materials at reasonable cost; and all our small, large tolerance parts are made offshore for a quarter of the price it costs to make it here. We can't keep doing this to support the companies that buy product from us...we' re wheel barrowing money out the front door of the shop right now.
As employees, my co-workers and I are waiting for the left shoe to drop.
manual machinist and hydraulic tech in Toronto Canada making $29/cdn with 25 years expericence . Management is out of touch everything is getting expensive and this inflation seems to be here to stay . I'm updating my resume and started looking . Comfortable working conditions are great but they don't pay the bills . How about profit sharing instead of raises . It's not permanent and it motivates staff .
I think the big issue that's been going on forever is manufacturing isn't a big city industry anymore.
That's been changing since the decline of Detroit in the 70s.
The industry needs to keep competitive with offshore manufacturing, which means lower prices for produces all the while it needs to maintain good standard of living for skilled people to keep them onboard and joining up.
And while 30 bucks an hour is lower middle class or mid middle class in a city like Toronto, it's upper middle class income in a small town 100 miles out of Toronto metro.
Not in the cnc or machinist(Work as an Arborist) and profit sharing would really give me some extra motivation. I work for a small company only 3 employes and after I started 2 years ago we double our profits. Last year I got a 1100$ bonus for good work and that was nice if it was not for the fact that my boss took out 21 000$ bonus .......
Dude I'm an apprentice in Kingston, ON making $27. You're getting hosed
What I've noticed is that I can't get a lot of the onesie twosie stuff because some old retired guy in his garage will take it on for $5 an hour just so he has something to do on a Saturday afternoon. Wondering if there are just more of these guys around at the moment lol.
Regardless of your view on this, this is a macro issue, you can really only focus on micro issues (what can you do for yourself and family) my shop closed out and I was offered a starting position at another shop we contract with. The pay is around the same as Target. If that is my only choice, I would gladly choose Target or Costco. Way less stress and no Mandatory overtime. (Not a perk for me anymore) do what's best for you.
in 2003-4 i lived in Alabama and machine shops were paying $9 hour, i took a truck driving class instead
Good video, thanks for your thoughts
Thank you very much, thanks for watching!