Identifying Antennas On A Coastal Radio Station
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ก.พ. 2023
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Correction: Folded dipoles are an amateur radio repeater.
Thank you!
We’re all here to learn!
:)
Gotta love the nerdiest ever version of "What are THOSE"?!?!?!?
I used to install Coast Guard telecoms equipment between 1984 and 1989. I worked at the Great Orm site a few times, and from your video it looks much the same as I remember.
As regards the four VHF folded dipoles on the "marine" tower, this pattern was exactly how we used to rig the Coast Guards "standard" set-up at their remote radio sites.
The top one was the receive aerial which fed an aerial distribution amp which in turn fed three receivers - one fixed marine channel 16, one fixed marine channel 0, and one switchable between channels 0, 6, 10, 16, 67, 73. The three lower aerials were (top to bottom) fixed transmitter channel 16, fixed transmitter channel 0, switched transmitter channels 0, 6, 10, 16, 67, 73. The logic for this layout was to minimise signal levels between the transmit and receive aerials.
By stacking them vertically, they were all on the axis of minimum field strength - the field pattern of the horizontal polarised dipoles being omni-directional "toroidal" but with a slight dip in the direction of the metal mast. This meant the sig strength from the three TX aerials to the RX aerial was at a minimum, however the aerial amp needed a substantial range on its AGC in order that the TXs didn’t swamp it.
I also installed a Direction Finder system (Rhode & Schwartz) which had a very similar looking array to that in your video at the top of the mast. I find it difficult to believe that it could be the same one as it would now be over 40 years old, unless as per other comments, it has been disused for some time and just left in place.
As to why these Coast Guard aerials are licenced to Peel Ports - shortly after I stopped doing Coast Guard work, the company I worked for (the UK Civil Aviation Authority engineering division, now known as National Air Traffic Services or NATS) withdrew from the contract with HMGC for provision of engineering services. I believe some time after that, HMCG transferred all their telecoms assets to a private company and this may well have led to Peel Ports ultimately "owning" them or the licence for their use.
Great information, thanks for the post and it makes a great video even better! :)
@@jammiedodger629 Thanks ! It's funny, I cant remember where I left my car keys nowadays but I can remember this level of detail from nearly 40 years ago. 🤔😀
Both the white vertical dipole are part of the local radio group repeater station GB3OR.
I remember been on the roof helping install them.
Someone said it’s the folded dipoles , either way cheers! :)
If visiting the Great Orme be careful with your mobile phone as they often switch to Isle of Man masts and count as roaming connections.
Great video
Hey David funnily enough when editing this footage, I heard myself in the background telling my girlfriend my phone had switched over!
As well as the Ship Canal, Peel Holdings (Peel Ports) run the Port of Liverpool and the Port of Dublin and the Great Orme is ideally situated to monitor and manage traffic bound for Liverpool and I suspect it probably also covers all their Irish Sea traffic inc that for Dublin.
Thanks for including the "map" of what you covered in the vid, with the extensive amount of antennas present this was great!
Excellent video, Lewis! I love hearing the results of your detective work. Would you consider doing a video on how you do your research? I'm especially interested in how you determine the manufacturers and models of the antennas. Dave VE7HUN
Stellar work yet again, Lewis. Those crossed dipole FM antennas always intrigue me as we have many of those round our parts here in puɐlsuǝǝnQ ɥʇnoS ɐᴉlɐɹʇsn∀. Those combiners (what kind of sorcery is this??) sound like an ideal topic for a future video.
Very funny!
You south queenslanders surely are a upside down bunch of lads, g'day from nth qld
Another excellent video. I especially liked the final picture with everything summarised in one place.
This is the kind of content I love. Very informative, and I happen to be trying to do the same kind of research over here in France! Learning the names of different types of antennas is very interesting to me. Keep up the awesome work !
Grats for the 75 thousand subs, you greatly deserved it for the knowledge you've given us over the years
It's been more than 20 years since I had any dealings with the Classic FM distribution network so can't remember if it was fed via RBR or was connected to the BT Musicline 2000 distribution (which had dual paths in case one path failed). If it was the latter, I suspect that it is now an IP based distribution. What I do remember about that site though is that it was the only site that wasn't an Arqiva (then NTL) installation.
I've had a certain fascination with prominent antenna structures for as long as I can remember, but it's only since finding this channel than I've started seeking out the not-so-prominent antennas in the built environment ... and let's face it; everywhere. Thank you ... I think. Hehe.
I do like the “What do the antennas do” videos of yours. I wouldn’t recommend flying a drone over the MI6 building, but probably a bunch of antenna on top you can see via Google earth or other imaging site. Might be interesting - especially for Americans that haven’t stood up close to the building (like me). Government buildings always seem to have interesting antennas. Ah yes forgot to mention your antenna schematic at the end of video - super.
The emphasis on antennae relating to Peel Ports might be because they advertise that:
We’re more than just a series of ports, we are an integral part of our customer’s supply chain.
As the second largest port group in the UK, each year, we safely handle over 70 million tonnes of cargo from across the globe and whether it is finding efficient routes and well-connected services, close to end-destination ports or storage and freight options, we add-value to every step of the process.
We enable businesses to benefit from innovative and sustainable port centric solutions, via our strategically located ports, terminals and state of the art technology. What sets us apart is the way we work with customers to extend and transform their supply chain, adding value at every touchpoint.
This is Peak Nerd done properly. Epic work. 👍
That diagram at the end, hell yeah. I live in Florida and may never see these places in person, but my burgeoning interest in antennae can't get enough
Superb presentation as always
Well done Lewis it's amazing to see the combiner antennas love these vids .....cos so many people look up and wonder ? ...nice to have the answers
The history of Orme summit as an even older - really old - visual telegraph site is quite interesting, too! As a fan of the Great Orme Tramway, this was particularly nice to see, thanks!
Excellent presentation Ringway. Well researched and informative. Your video concludes an enjoyable Sunday TH-cam Viewing
Autoshenanigans
Paul and Rebecca Whitewick
and your good self.
Just missing Summit or Nothing for the full bingo card.
As ever all the best.
In Iceland the most coastal radio stations masts are located in remote locations on top of mountains (I don't go there for that reason). They use the 156Mhz to 165Mhz for ship location service and communication (that's the general frequency range, might be allocated slightly differently in Iceland). Sometimes there's television service and radio (FM) service, but sometimes not. Iceland does not use the old NMT band at 450Mhz for 4G service.
In ITU R1 4G is 790-862 MHz. Oh, the golden days of NMT.... I used to be able to light up a base station in Maastricht from a hilltop near Strassbourg with my car NMT setup🙂
@@glennwillems9924 4G and 5G use multiple frequencies in Europe, mainly n1/B1 2100 MHz, n3/B3 1800 MHz, n7/B7 2600 MHz FDD, B8 900 MHz, n20/B20 800 MHz (the frequency band you‘ve listed), n28/B28 700 MHz, B32 1500 MHz SDL, B38/41 2600 MHz TDD in the 2600 MHz FDD gap, n40/B40 2300 MHz, n77/78 3500 MHz and special bands, which are B31 450 MHz for energy meters, B2/39 for different purposes and B65 2100 MHz for the European Aviation Network.
B34 2000 MHz is also licensed, but it never was used outside of testing to my knowledge. The different parts of the spectrum can be aggregated to B1+3+8+20+28 orB8+32 for example (typical rural aggregation), or to B1+3+7+n78 (a typical aggregation in towns), a single band usually isn‘t enough anymore.
it amazing how all these different antennas work in one location without interfering with each other
Not amazing, just science, applied by people that know more than I'll ever understand... lol
The radio stations could be fed by LTE/internet or by microwave or from a small dipole, basically any reliable source that will get the signal to the mast to be rebroadcast
What a beautiful location! Hope to visit someday. Your photography and editing are superb. Thanks for the video!
Thank you very much!
I live in Llandudno, so found this video very interesting. Next time I go up the Orme, I will have a proper look. I did know that it was used for radar in WW2, and the "rest and be thankful" café on marine drive is on the site of a experimental radar school.
Thank God!! Finally, I can identify antennas on coastal radio stations.
Thanks Lewis, another great video. Would love to hear (and see some shots of) the tower on Mow Cop.
And while I’m making requests - Pye Green! When I was younger, my Dad used to tell me it was part of the “Cheshire Space Project”, a top secret scheme ran by Cheshire County Council, aiming to be the first local authority to reach space 😅
Very interesting. Awesome detective work and thanks dor fhe diagram at the rnd
I would guess that more of those marine band antennas belong to HM Coastguard. From their radio sites I have seen they usually have 3 or 4 aerials. The highest usually dedicated to Ch 16, the next highest switchable but generally Ch 0 / 73, the next one down switchable Ch 73/67 and the one at the bottom switchable to all the above.
Just speculating, but I suspect Classic FM is fed from that little microwave stl on the bottom at 1:00 and audio over IP for backup. Great video! 😁
There's an impressive RDF array just down from The Verne prison on Portland, more than 4 antennas that's for sure, nearer 20. There's also a Coastguard setup next to the other prison, an airwave installation on the cliffs between the two and at the Verne on the cliffs are some more antenna including a "golf ball" radome. All quite interesting and you can actually go round the outside of the Verne as it has a cafe that used to be staffed by the prisoners (though not from there anymore) if you want a good look at the installation.
Superb research Lewis. Would you ever consider asking to visit some of these sites and get "inside" access? Would be amazing to get some footage of the TX's and more...👍
Working on that mate ;) few inroads happening
I've played radio up there on 2m band. Great perch. 👍
You are doing a great job.
You do so much work! I sent you a Buy Me A Coffee. Thanks!
You're the best!
I spent most of my childhood holidays in Llandudno as my aunt and uncle used to own The Brig-Y-Don just across from the Band Stand on the front promenade. No idea who owns it now. 👍
Intetesting video, Peel may have a few antennas up there because they own Liverpool Docks and the Manchester ship Canal.
Pretty sure the the stacked dipole on the roof is for Gb3or amateur radio repeater.
Hi Lewis. The Capital service has been line-fed from the studios in Wrexham ever since I've known it (2008 onwards.) It's possible the "cigar tube" may have been an old STL from when the service was a standalone based in Colwyn Bay, but I don't know.
(Just to clarify, too: it's the 96.3 service which was previously Coast FM. The 105.7 service was previously Real Radio.)
The yagi on the building is indeed the RBR receive for Heart from Moel-Y-Parc.
I, too, have no idea how Classic is fed, but I doubt it will be line-fed, more likely an RBR of somewhere - possibly Arfon.
amazing video and such a great channel ...I would love to get your thoughts on what a number station transmitter would look like ....Im talking what would the smallest set up be and the largest ...thanks for your great work
I went last year and it was very interesting and I thought of you! I wondered if you would do a video.
I'd love to take my 'Close-Call' scanner there!
Hi Lewis, I believe Great Orme Head features in the shipping forecast broadcast on BBC Radio 4. I'm guessing there may be a weather station there which sends data to the Met Office, possibly by radio telemetry.
Lewis, can you shed some light on what the leasing terms would be for antenna placement in the UK. Just curious how that works with placing antennas and links on various buildings. Thanks
Mixed polarised stacked not circular. The shrouded yagi will be a 1.517ghz link I've installed a few for community stations in lancs (103.2 beat radio preston 102.8 chorleyfm) Chorley being my home town. Oh and the 96.3 transmit antenna is nulled out towards me as 96.3 was used round here for 2br now crapitol and moved to 102.8 chorleyfms old frequency.
Shrouded Yagi... aka the Donkey Plonker - we have one at an Arqiva site in the IOM for a link to a RBRX site that has poor FM RBRX due to Adj Ch issues - It send the MPX using Seilco TX kit.
Thank's for another great video Lewis! Where do you find all this informations? 🙂
Dunno why you had difficulty working out what the antennas were for, there is helpful labeling in the vid at 1.45. Expresso, Cappuccino. Latte, Tea, Hot Chocolate.
Fantastic work. Maybe the Classic FM feed is via the Internet or a dedicated line?
Great Work Lewis interesting video👍
Glad you enjoyed it
It looks like a very interesting place to visit.
Liverpool/Holyhead coast guard have an antenna there as well Lewis..
Also at Point Lynas on Anglesey ( the old River Mersey pilot stn) there used to be an Aviation NDB sited there.....the Antenna is still there....far as I know its still transmits on a MF freq and is likely to be the GPS correction signal....I have some pics inc the transmitter and its freq...if interested Lewis.
Wonderful video Lewis of a place close to my heart.
Would Peel Ports also have any input to the maintenance of systems and companies that operate the vast offshore wind farm and the drilling rigs out at sea that are just visible from the Great Orme?
That’s a great point mate, it’s likely
Thanks for sharing
Thanks for watching!
Nice job!
Never heard of a “combiner”.. Does it multiplex the signals? I live on Long Island in NY and we have the old RCA transmitting station that used to relay messages to Europe. I wish the antennas were still around.. just old photos.
The Copper Mine is brilliant.
Well done
Nice bit of homework Lewis, I have been up to the cafe many times and like you being an antenna nerd, often wondered what they all did. See you soon.
Regards
Dave. 👍
Thanks Dave! Check your messages ;)
At 3:40 there is a 4-stack UHF antenna sticking up from the roof, visible behind the tower. Might that be a Ham repeater?
The radio station may not have an RF STL or they may not be in use anymore. I have converted most of mine to IP based STLs but some of the antennas remain on the towers.
Any chance you can look into Project ELF near where I live in the US.
there may be an fm band scan video from hear on my youtube
gaah, i would really love to know how one would go about building a phasing harness for a 70cm vertical folded dipole array
The UHF dipole array you have marked as Conwy Council is GB3OR. 73 GW7VFW.
Aha! Thanks!
0:28 that tram must be magically moving its self or the over head lines are invisible
I think it’s a pulley based system in the track
@@RingwayManchester In 2000 I was a driver for a company that delivered the new cables for the tramway. I was one of the drivers on the job. The tram cars are pulled to the summit on the cable with the cable running under the road in a conduit on the lower section and on rollers above the track on the higher section. I believe that there used to be an overhead line and this was used as a communication line between the top and bottom stations. It was removed many years ago but the overhead poles were left on the top of the trams. So now you know 🤓
I was going to say it's a funicular, but apparently that needs a counterbalancing car going the other way, so maybe not. Anyway not a tram.
2:44 Odd that the mast is not square to the building or the enclosure around it. It just random.
I'm a bit surprised that none of the antennas are the Aerial Oy antennas.
@1:15 the Classic FM antenna really needs to be raised up so it's bottom bay is at least more than a half wavelength above the reinforced concrete. That install is a terrible mistake and they will get better results by moving it.
Very interesting
Brilliant fell
I was under the impression that this was a very rare British Gas tx site years ago?
Oh sure; that's where they DIDN'T film The Prisoner!
As an RF engineer myself working at one of the biggest telcos in my country... This is my brain constantly 🤣
Every tower I see, I'm looking for issues, wondering what that bloody yagi is doing, etc etc!
Fun random piece of info - we have to insulate our coax tails with a metal jacket otherwise they get torn to shreds by cockatoos (big birds).
Which country are you in where Cockatoos are in the wild?
@@deang5622 Australia 🇦🇺🙂
@@reefjames6302 Only in zoos here!
@@deang5622 they are bloody everywhere here! Beautiful birds though. Black ones, white ones, pink ones, ones with yellow on their heads. Really cool and smart bird, but they can do a lot of damage 😂
Unfortunately HM Coastguard haven't used DF for 20+ years, they tend to get a lifeboat or rescue helicopter to do the DF if one is out, possibly one of the worst decisions made, I've been in a opps room and seen it working at Portland CG, they had an antenna on Portland and another on Hengistbury Head near Christchurch so would get a cross DF on a signal on ch16 at the time of transmission.
Hey John yes you’re absolutely right. I should’ve known better, a guy from RNLI told me a while ago and I forgot
@@RingwayManchester FWIW I maintained Coastguard systems until a few years ago, they certainly did have operational DF systems on VHF but I don't know how much of the coast was covered. Certainly the control room at Dover had DF operational, it was quite amazing the resolution it had too.
How does that work, triangulation using directional antenna or an arrival time difference approach?
@@deang5622 multi-site doppler DF, it is extremely fast. The system displays like a pair of crosswires on the map, superimposed with AIS.
g0fvt, Dover CG may still have DF it will link in with the radar to cover the Dover Strait but I know Portland CG had it removed many years ago.
Usually, long wires in the horizontal sloping configuration are "shortwave" radio antenna. Or else, some tall AM radio looking tower.
I didn’t see a long wire?
@@RingwayManchester 00:22-- looks like either a longwire, or just a power line.
Just a powerline
@@RingwayManchester Ah ha! A case of the mind seeing something by habit, no doubt. Okay, thanks.
I wonder what that single-polarity receive-only Ku band satellite dish is doing at the bottom...
Third? Doing my Foundation now and just learnt half an hour ago what a Yagi is , so great to hear you mention on the vid! Proper job RM! Thanks
are there not 2 antennas belonging to GB3GO and GB3OR?
I would really love to know how you get permission for drone flights that close to radiating structures.
zooming from a distance ?
Permission from who? If it's a 249g drone you can fly them 'virtually' anywhere. I regularly fly mine right up to the masts to inspect antennas and plan installations such as where to put feeder clamps etc. There is no 'radiating structure god' to ask.
Have you ever done a video on Old Pale Hill in Cheshire? I get some weird intermodulation artifacts up there with my scanner, receiving BBC Radio 1 on 3.2MHz FM.
I don't know why, but they don't have the lights active on the towers. I thought it was law that you had to have a beacon light on top at night time for air traffic to know there's a structure there.
It’s on my list Jim :)
It's odd, that. The transmitter tower at Pendle Hill used to have bright red aircraft warning lights in 2004 but they're not lit nowadays.
@@RingwayManchester Awesome! It's a great place. Fantastic views there.
@@nowster Probably to prevent USAF thinking they're UFOs and flying over there to shoot them down.
Why does the council have devices up there? What do they use them for?
Comms for engineers, telemetry for hearing, gas, alarms etc
Have you ever visited Tropiquaria in Washford?
What’s that
@@RingwayManchester en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropiquaria
No HF?
No
👏👏👍
first :)
First
sorry. got here before :(
🙈😂
No codar installations? Didn't see any in the video you did from the other beach town either