About Yamato’s performance off Samar, read Robert Lundgren’s book. He pretty much definitively proved Yamato hit the USS Johnston with three 18.1-inch shells and three 6.1-inch shells at a distance of 20,300 yards, and hit USS Gambier Bay with a first salvo shell at 22,000 yards, and scored the hit that left her dead in the water. Apparently, her secondary battery also hit USS Hoel with a shell that disabled her last boiler.
Thanks for a both entertaining and very thoughtful discussion. I particularly like Ryan's thought on why Yamato is so admired by current day Japan: not to glorify the IJN and WW2, it is pride in a marvellous engineering achievement. Same reason others admire the Saturn V rocket or Brunel's Great Eastern.
To further Ryan's comment on U.S. Naval rapid adaptability , at the final stage of the Pacific war Admiral Willis Lee was relieved of command of the Fast Battleships and reassigned to develop a new and more powerful medium range anti - aircraft gun that could take out kamikaze aircraft threat. Unfortunately Admiral Lee passed away before he could complete his assignment.
We didn't know - makes absolute sense since we look in hindsight now. Like Drach said when I asked him about the quality of armor between the two nations, they were equal at the top levels but secondary or tertiary were different stories. Sitting int he officer's wardroom on the New Jersey he said a Yamato shell could pierce there and do damage of course but it would be more contained than if the New Jersey hit a similar location on Yamato. The explosion would have ripped into a fair number of more compartments there due to inferior internal protection.
One of the main flaws in the class was the joint between the armor belt and torpedo protection which formed a rigid surface that compromised the integrity of the Torpedo / flood control.....would later ships have had this corrected if war was delayed and Shinano and 111 completed?
34:20 To make a comment on this, two of the destroyers with Yamato were Akizuki-class (Suzutsuki and Fuyutsuki), and the rest all had the improved high-angle mounts for their 5-inch guns with the Type 3 shells iirc. Still wasn’t enough to be much help of course.
I did some research in college....by 1941 Japan had the worlds second largest submarine fleet (behind the USSR)...yet the Japanese were unable to shift their doctrine to attack the USN fleet logistics train...they were focused on using their subs as skirmishers for the big surface battle they thought was coming...where as the USN submarines (once the torpedo problems were worked out) succeeded on doing to the Japanese what the Germans tried to do to the British....on another note ....I think there is a false assumption when people say that by 1941 battleships were a waste of time and use Pearl Harbor, Gulf of Siam , and Ten-Go as proof......no one intended their battleships to be caught without friendly air cover at sea....like POW and Repulse or Yamato....The USN never lost battleships at sea due to air attack (air cover was always available).....BTW...Repulse almost made it. So battleships are still viable in a fleet with available friendly air cover.
09:10 Yeah the Queen Anne Mansion superstructure actually makes sense as a solution to a problem that the RN was facing after WW1, the old WW1 era superstructure was woefully inadequate and inefficient as it had been going bigger with more platforms and more functionality being added and tall enough for the crew to see over the horizon to give the ship good visibility, making platforms unexposed which improved crew working conditions and made it easier to install new equipment The reason the octopole superstructure was called a Queen Anne Mansion was it resembled the Queen Anne's mansion residential block in London and Ryan and Jack, the Queen Anne Mansion superstructure and its bigger KG5-type design are arguably better than the Pagota Mast design of the IJN
The test on the Shino's turret face plate, the 16 inch gun the powder used was adjusted for a range of 10,000 yards. The shell would still penetrate. Hitler changed the name of the cruiser Deutchland to Lutzow because he did not want a ship named Germany sunk.
I asked Drach about the metallurgical quality of Japanese armor versus American because we have seen the study on that piece which was subpar to other armor sections. He said he honestly didn't think anyone was capable of making a top notch piece of armor that thick at that point in time. He said Japan could make armor equal to America but they didn't put that level on every ship. The biggest discrepancy was the secondary armor. We were in the officer's wardroom on the battleship New Jersey so he said a shell had the same chance of piercing to us as on the Yamato but once it exploded it would rip thru much more of that ship than it would the NJ with much more devastating results internally.
05:25 The Japanese's problem is they are jumping from 32,000-to 38,000-ton Nagato-class of super-dreadnought battleships to the 64,000 to 71,000-ton Yamato without the in-between steps of the 39,900-43,200-ton Tosa-class, 42,600-48,500 ton Kii-class, 47,500-50,000 ton + Number 13 and the 50,000-60,000 + ton battleship that come before Yamato
Hey Ryan, that’s YA-moto to you. Just kidding, love your work with the NJ and all you do. Hope everything goes well with the dry dock. Hope to get up for a dry dock tour.
Yeah guys the British Empire had a sketch design for biggest battleship ever designed the 85-97,000 ton Large Lion which was as big as a Nimitz Aircraft carrier
I would also point out that out of the naval powers the British Empire was very close to building a battleship at the size of Yamato as they were about 1 or 2 battleship construction generations away after the planned N3/G3 and would have stopped at around 75,000 tons likely going bigger with a 95,000-ton battleship before staying at around 75,000 tons for anything after that
I’d wager that New Jersey’s radar fire control would ensure more hits more quickly. Even if those hits aren’t punching thru citadel armor, it tearing up command and control spaces in the superstructure, hole-ing the bow (poor subdivision in Yamato there), and taking out fire control rangefinders. Think Bismarck perhaps. Blind it, then shoot the absolute shit out of it once its fire has been rendered ineffective. 🤷🏻♂️
The Yamato would have done very well if she had a carrier that always sailed with her. constant fighter umbrella thats the same for any battleship in ww2 they were still needed and very useful but could only be utilised with a fighter umbrella like a tank with infantry etc.
13:50 Didn't know Wargaming provided the model for the movie, I hope Wargaming can provide more models of warships for movies and history videos in the future
The question I never see anyone answer is could Yamato have made a difference, could it have won Midway? If Yamamoto had consolidated his remaining forces and forced the issue with the battleships, lead by Yamato, could it have won? Would a battleship force driving a carrier force from the field have changed doctrine. Could it have done this in another theater, the Solomon's or New Guinea? If no, it was a failure.
Possibly, if Frank Fletcher had stuck around long enough to get caught under the Japanese guns. If the Main Body was able to get the American ships in range, they would have mopped the floor with them imo, but even if they were the same distance as the Japanese carriers I’m not sure if they could have caught the American fleet. But Midway was first and foremost a carrier battle, something battleships in general weren’t designed to directly fight. What really screwed the Japanese over at Midway was not having Shokaku and Zuikaku.
@@sirboomsalot4902 Yes, but would it not have also been a huge stragic shift it the battleships of the main body had driven the aircraft carriers from the field. Leaving Midway to its fate? Submarines already drove the Grand fleet to Scappa Flow in WWII and everyone forgets that. But if Yamato and company drive TF 16 back to Pearl that makes the battleship vs carrier debate very different.
@@NX74205NCC75633 Indeed it does. It’s almost as if battleships were actually still useful in WW2 and the modern perception people have that they weren’t simply isn’t true.
Fun FACT the yamatos in todays dollars cost Japan as much as our 3 failed zummwault class toothless feckless paper weights did. History repeats itself eh? 😀 another fun fact the yamato alone cost more than ALL 4 Iowa's did! I'd love to see someone in the know give an actual dollar for dollar breakdown of what it cost to sink musashi&yamato! I'd bet it's a whole LOT more $$$$$$ than anyone who believes bb's are pointless wants to admit. 👍🏻 And future story suggestion for Ryan collab, get him to talk about nj leading the first ever modern era 80s bbbg! As she was first to refit re commission and first to lead her own titled battlegroup in 1986. 😎
I wonder if the allies ever considered sorties against the yamato&musashi in truk lagoon? Aka the British bottling up tirpitz in that fjord and pounding it time after time with air, demo divers etc. 🤔
If you want a cool japanese comic about military try Zipang, pretty good story and believable action and characters. Its like the movie of Nimitz going back into WW2, but in this case its a single aegis Destroyer going back to the past.
Why? The yamatos looked like a blown up bama or so dak imo. Menacing to the extreme yes, sleek&sexy as the Iowa's? Heck NO! 😎 One class of these ships all got downgraded to permanent coral reefs the other are still all above water as museum ships. 👍🏻
The Yamato certainly isn't as sleek or elegant as British ships like Hood or KGV, but she looks like a fortress, a castle on water. Hood may be elegant, but Yamato is aesthetically badass, like the sailors abord Gambier Bay shit their pants upon Yamato's sight.
That face plate was a defected piece is was rejected for being inferior steel for the shinano but point blank range no armour would have stood up to 1225kg AP shell but if a 18 inch AP shell at nearly 1 1/2 ton hit Iowa at point blank on the belt well
your comments about if the japanese would have gotten us to have second thoughts to continue the war you forget that the Soviet Union was waiting in the background and probably would enter the war to support Mao and expand its influence to Japan and Korea. This would have really been a disaster.
I don't think you could get a perfect battleship without it weighing 100,000 tons plus. The Iowa class main compromise was internal belt with next to no external belt. Could have got flooding from a 5 inch shell I could see the Iowa class being in the dock being repaired after every major gun fight it had but luckily it never saw major gun battles it was a big compromise for the 33 knots and 16 inch 50's the big engines and the long range. 3 turrets instead of the preferred 4 as well 12 inch internal belt too average thickness for a battleship on 45,000 tons. So not even 45,000 tons can get you near perfect.
Yamato could have took 2 Iowa's on it own cause thats it was built for it was built as a traditional battleship against a fast battleship a fast battleship should always run unless it outnumbers it by a lot
Podcast discussion: Over the hip shots wouldn't be fun in WoWS if you were trashing your own AA. In the same of fairness and fun, they don't WoWS: *laughs* - haha, completely random ass detonation still exists.
I believe the Yamato’s belt and the thinner part of her deck could resist her own guns from 21,800 yards to 31,800 yards, and is estimated to be immune to the guns of USS Iowa from 18,000 yards to 36,000 yards.
At the end of the day Japan were absolutely out of their minds going to war with U.S. you don't attack a country that has over 10 times the industrial capacity as you and all the natural resources etc. If Japan had any sense their best course of action for getting the oil resources they needed would have allying themselves with the U.S. U.K. and France.
The Yamato's were a better battleship than the Iowa's no question. The Iowa class were built as fast battleships under a Naval Treaty Yamato had no restrictions apart from the size of dock yards and was designed as a solid battleship a traditional battleship. The Montana's were to be the solid battleship but I think Yamato would still have the advantage one on one cause they were still very accurate and 18 inch guns massive difference to a 16 inch they wouldn't have to hit as much Montana would have to get a lot more hits in. 2-3 hits from a 18 inch shell cause even with the 16 inch super heavy shell your still talking in AP a 1/4 of a ton difference in HE your talking well over 1/2 ton difference and it had a similar rate of fire to the 16 inch. I think the Montana's should have been designed with 18 inch guns maybe the 18 inch 48 or even a 21 inch if you could get it to a similar rate of fire the 18's then I think 21 inch would have been the highest practical weapon although your battleship would have to be a 100,000 tons plus but I think battleships development carried on you would have seen this. Like the aircraft carries what have we had 100 years of development of carries now we have or have had 100,000 ton plus carries for the last 50 years and built a lot of the 10 now building 10 more improved ones so there would have be a dozens of 100,000-110,000 tons battleships around say if battleships continued into the 50's 60's 70's
Another example of a silly attention bringing apology for background noise that no listener would ever care about. How many times have you heard a speaker apologise for noise? How many times have you thought..."if he didn't apologise i probably wouldn't have noticed it". Worst case scenario you indicate that your broadcasting in an active environment and move on. Because they made such a deal about the noises at the start, now it's made me focus on the noise more than i want to be.
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 88 | คู่เอก "ป้อมเพชร vs อัสลามจอน"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1ZqTVVbMgbo/mqdefault.jpg)
About Yamato’s performance off Samar, read Robert Lundgren’s book. He pretty much definitively proved Yamato hit the USS Johnston with three 18.1-inch shells and three 6.1-inch shells at a distance of 20,300 yards, and hit USS Gambier Bay with a first salvo shell at 22,000 yards, and scored the hit that left her dead in the water. Apparently, her secondary battery also hit USS Hoel with a shell that disabled her last boiler.
Thanks for a both entertaining and very thoughtful discussion.
I particularly like Ryan's thought on why Yamato is so admired by current day Japan: not to glorify the IJN and WW2, it is pride in a marvellous engineering achievement. Same reason others admire the Saturn V rocket or Brunel's Great Eastern.
To further Ryan's comment on U.S. Naval rapid adaptability , at the final stage of the Pacific war Admiral Willis Lee was relieved of command of the Fast Battleships and reassigned to develop a new and more powerful medium range anti - aircraft gun that could take out kamikaze aircraft threat. Unfortunately Admiral Lee passed away before he could complete his assignment.
We didn't know - makes absolute sense since we look in hindsight now. Like Drach said when I asked him about the quality of armor between the two nations, they were equal at the top levels but secondary or tertiary were different stories. Sitting int he officer's wardroom on the New Jersey he said a Yamato shell could pierce there and do damage of course but it would be more contained than if the New Jersey hit a similar location on Yamato. The explosion would have ripped into a fair number of more compartments there due to inferior internal protection.
One of the main flaws in the class was the joint between the armor belt and torpedo protection which formed a rigid surface that compromised the integrity of the Torpedo / flood control.....would later ships have had this corrected if war was delayed and Shinano and 111 completed?
34:20 To make a comment on this, two of the destroyers with Yamato were Akizuki-class (Suzutsuki and Fuyutsuki), and the rest all had the improved high-angle mounts for their 5-inch guns with the Type 3 shells iirc. Still wasn’t enough to be much help of course.
I did some research in college....by 1941 Japan had the worlds second largest submarine fleet (behind the USSR)...yet the Japanese were unable to shift their doctrine to attack the USN fleet logistics train...they were focused on using their subs as skirmishers for the big surface battle they thought was coming...where as the USN submarines (once the torpedo problems were worked out) succeeded on doing to the Japanese what the Germans tried to do to the British....on another note ....I think there is a false assumption when people say that by 1941 battleships were a waste of time and use Pearl Harbor, Gulf of Siam , and Ten-Go as proof......no one intended their battleships to be caught without friendly air cover at sea....like POW and Repulse or Yamato....The USN never lost battleships at sea due to air attack (air cover was always available).....BTW...Repulse almost made it. So battleships are still viable in a fleet with available friendly air cover.
09:10 Yeah the Queen Anne Mansion superstructure actually makes sense as a solution to a problem that the RN was facing after WW1, the old WW1 era superstructure was woefully inadequate and inefficient as it had been going bigger with more platforms and more functionality being added and
tall enough for the crew to see over the horizon to give the ship good visibility, making platforms unexposed which improved crew working conditions and made it easier to install new equipment
The reason the octopole superstructure was called a Queen Anne Mansion was it resembled the Queen Anne's mansion residential block in London and Ryan and Jack, the Queen Anne Mansion superstructure and its bigger KG5-type design are arguably better than the Pagota Mast design of the IJN
Let’s go. I’m excited for this one!
Enjoyed this because ot is balanced and reasonable in its conclusions. Thanks to both of you
The test on the Shino's turret face plate, the 16 inch gun the powder used was adjusted for a range of 10,000 yards. The shell would still penetrate.
Hitler changed the name of the cruiser Deutchland to Lutzow because he did not want a ship named Germany sunk.
I asked Drach about the metallurgical quality of Japanese armor versus American because we have seen the study on that piece which was subpar to other armor sections. He said he honestly didn't think anyone was capable of making a top notch piece of armor that thick at that point in time.
He said Japan could make armor equal to America but they didn't put that level on every ship. The biggest discrepancy was the secondary armor. We were in the officer's wardroom on the battleship New Jersey so he said a shell had the same chance of piercing to us as on the Yamato but once it exploded it would rip thru much more of that ship than it would the NJ with much more devastating results internally.
05:25 The Japanese's problem is they are jumping from 32,000-to 38,000-ton Nagato-class of super-dreadnought battleships to the 64,000 to 71,000-ton Yamato without the in-between steps of the 39,900-43,200-ton Tosa-class, 42,600-48,500 ton Kii-class, 47,500-50,000 ton + Number 13 and the 50,000-60,000 + ton battleship that come before Yamato
Hey Ryan, that’s YA-moto to you. Just kidding, love your work with the NJ and all you do. Hope everything goes well with the dry dock. Hope to get up for a dry dock tour.
Yeah guys the British Empire had a sketch design for biggest battleship ever designed the 85-97,000 ton Large Lion which was as big as a Nimitz Aircraft carrier
Where can I find information on this
@@andrewbray4923 Drach mentions about it in his HMS Lion 1938 video
4 Shokaku Class Carriers (with Air Wings) instead of the Yamatos would have made things rougher for the USN.
Shinano turret face plate 26" if it matches Yamato specs
Thank You.
I would also point out that out of the naval powers the British Empire was very close to building a battleship at the size of Yamato as they were about 1 or 2 battleship construction generations away after the planned N3/G3 and would have stopped at around 75,000 tons likely going bigger with a 95,000-ton battleship before staying at around 75,000 tons for anything after that
Shame what happened to Battleships in general but I guess thats history
I’d wager that New Jersey’s radar fire control would ensure more hits more quickly. Even if those hits aren’t punching thru citadel armor, it tearing up command and control spaces in the superstructure, hole-ing the bow (poor subdivision in Yamato there), and taking out fire control rangefinders. Think Bismarck perhaps. Blind it, then shoot the absolute shit out of it once its fire has been rendered ineffective. 🤷🏻♂️
I think toward the end of the war the japanese were putting crude oil from the Dutch East Indies directly into ships fuel tanks with no refining
The Yamato would have done very well if she had a carrier that always sailed with her. constant fighter umbrella thats the same for any battleship in ww2 they were still needed and very useful but could only be utilised with a fighter umbrella like a tank with infantry etc.
13:50 Didn't know Wargaming provided the model for the movie, I hope Wargaming can provide more models of warships for movies and history videos in the future
The question I never see anyone answer is could Yamato have made a difference, could it have won Midway? If Yamamoto had consolidated his remaining forces and forced the issue with the battleships, lead by Yamato, could it have won? Would a battleship force driving a carrier force from the field have changed doctrine. Could it have done this in another theater, the Solomon's or New Guinea? If no, it was a failure.
Possibly, if Frank Fletcher had stuck around long enough to get caught under the Japanese guns. If the Main Body was able to get the American ships in range, they would have mopped the floor with them imo, but even if they were the same distance as the Japanese carriers I’m not sure if they could have caught the American fleet. But Midway was first and foremost a carrier battle, something battleships in general weren’t designed to directly fight. What really screwed the Japanese over at Midway was not having Shokaku and Zuikaku.
@@sirboomsalot4902 Yes, but would it not have also been a huge stragic shift it the battleships of the main body had driven the aircraft carriers from the field. Leaving Midway to its fate? Submarines already drove the Grand fleet to Scappa Flow in WWII and everyone forgets that. But if Yamato and company drive TF 16 back to Pearl that makes the battleship vs carrier debate very different.
@@NX74205NCC75633 Indeed it does. It’s almost as if battleships were actually still useful in WW2 and the modern perception people have that they weren’t simply isn’t true.
Think it was about 1,500yd at half charge if I recall correctly. So theoretically still unrealistic for Iowa, but a little more substantial
Fun FACT the yamatos in todays dollars cost Japan as much as our 3 failed zummwault class toothless feckless paper weights did.
History repeats itself eh? 😀 another fun fact the yamato alone cost more than ALL 4 Iowa's did!
I'd love to see someone in the know give an actual dollar for dollar breakdown of what it cost to sink musashi&yamato!
I'd bet it's a whole LOT more $$$$$$ than anyone who believes bb's are pointless wants to admit. 👍🏻
And future story suggestion for Ryan collab, get him to talk about nj leading the first ever modern era 80s bbbg!
As she was first to refit re commission and first to lead her own titled battlegroup in 1986. 😎
I wonder if the allies ever considered sorties against the yamato&musashi in truk lagoon?
Aka the British bottling up tirpitz in that fjord and pounding it time after time with air, demo divers etc. 🤔
If you want a cool japanese comic about military try Zipang, pretty good story and believable action and characters. Its like the movie of Nimitz going back into WW2, but in this case its a single aegis Destroyer going back to the past.
53:34 could you link that drachinifel video?
I dont believe Ryan that Yamato isnt aesthetically pleasing to him
Why? The yamatos looked like a blown up bama or so dak imo. Menacing to the extreme yes, sleek&sexy as the Iowa's? Heck NO! 😎
One class of these ships all got downgraded to permanent coral reefs the other are still all above water as museum ships. 👍🏻
@@4literv6 If anything Iowa's are boring compared to Yamato
The Yamato certainly isn't as sleek or elegant as British ships like Hood or KGV, but she looks like a fortress, a castle on water.
Hood may be elegant, but Yamato is aesthetically badass, like the sailors abord Gambier Bay shit their pants upon Yamato's sight.
That face plate was a defected piece is was rejected for being inferior steel for the shinano but point blank range no armour would have stood up to 1225kg AP shell but if a 18 inch AP shell at nearly 1 1/2 ton hit Iowa at point blank on the belt well
your comments about if the japanese would have gotten us to have second thoughts to continue the war you forget that the Soviet Union was waiting in the background and probably would enter the war to support Mao and expand its influence to Japan and Korea. This would have really been a disaster.
I don't think you could get a perfect battleship without it weighing 100,000 tons plus. The Iowa class main compromise was internal belt with next to no external belt. Could have got flooding from a 5 inch shell I could see the Iowa class being in the dock being repaired after every major gun fight it had but luckily it never saw major gun battles it was a big compromise for the 33 knots and 16 inch 50's the big engines and the long range. 3 turrets instead of the preferred 4 as well 12 inch internal belt too average thickness for a battleship on 45,000 tons. So not even 45,000 tons can get you near perfect.
Should read a book by john Watson called the iron man. Good final battle sequence
Yamato could have took 2 Iowa's on it own cause thats it was built for it was built as a traditional battleship against a fast battleship a fast battleship should always run unless it outnumbers it by a lot
Podcast discussion: Over the hip shots wouldn't be fun in WoWS if you were trashing your own AA. In the same of fairness and fun, they don't
WoWS: *laughs* - haha, completely random ass detonation still exists.
I believe the Yamato’s belt and the thinner part of her deck could resist her own guns from 21,800 yards to 31,800 yards, and is estimated to be immune to the guns of USS Iowa from 18,000 yards to 36,000 yards.
At the end of the day Japan were absolutely out of their minds going to war with U.S. you don't attack a country that has over 10 times the industrial capacity as you and all the natural resources etc. If Japan had any sense their best course of action for getting the oil resources they needed would have allying themselves with the U.S. U.K. and France.
The Yamato's were a better battleship than the Iowa's no question. The Iowa class were built as fast battleships under a Naval Treaty Yamato had no restrictions apart from the size of dock yards and was designed as a solid battleship a traditional battleship. The Montana's were to be the solid battleship but I think Yamato would still have the advantage one on one cause they were still very accurate and 18 inch guns massive difference to a 16 inch they wouldn't have to hit as much Montana would have to get a lot more hits in. 2-3 hits from a 18 inch shell cause even with the 16 inch super heavy shell your still talking in AP a 1/4 of a ton difference in HE your talking well over 1/2 ton difference and it had a similar rate of fire to the 16 inch. I think the Montana's should have been designed with 18 inch guns maybe the 18 inch 48 or even a 21 inch if you could get it to a similar rate of fire the 18's then I think 21 inch would have been the highest practical weapon although your battleship would have to be a 100,000 tons plus but I think battleships development carried on you would have seen this. Like the aircraft carries what have we had 100 years of development of carries now we have or have had 100,000 ton plus carries for the last 50 years and built a lot of the 10 now building 10 more improved ones so there would have be a dozens of 100,000-110,000 tons battleships around say if battleships continued into the 50's 60's 70's
For the Luddites, 600mm = 23.6"
Another example of a silly attention bringing apology for background noise that no listener would ever care about. How many times have you heard a speaker apologise for noise? How many times have you thought..."if he didn't apologise i probably wouldn't have noticed it". Worst case scenario you indicate that your broadcasting in an active environment and move on. Because they made such a deal about the noises at the start, now it's made me focus on the noise more than i want to be.