Greg Koukl: Molinism
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ต.ค. 2024
- Greg Koukl of Stand to Reason answers the question, "What do you think of Molinism?"
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What are your thoughts on Molinism as it relates to God’s sovereignty and human free will?
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Is Molinism determinism?
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Why do you disagree with Molinism?
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What are the advantages and disadvantages of Molinism?
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Is there any reason why I must choose between the Reformed, Arminian, and Molinist views?
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By selecting a certain world wouldn't God be selecting the individuals as well?
Yes! Of course he would. Have you ever seen a world of individuals that didn't contain individuals? LOL!
In a sense yes. This is how Molinist interpret predestination. Its an amazing view as it affirms libertarian free will as well as God's sovereignty!
Yes. I understand that's what you believe. Based on your belief, I'm curious, how do you evangelize? What do you tell people about the gospel?
An honest assessment of the idea. Good stuff!
Personally, I was taught Arminianism when I was saved, but I have ended up more in the Reformed camp when it comes to this issue. Our will is not as free as some would like it to be, methinks. Even after I embraced the Reformed view, I realised that a sliver of pride could finally die in me when I saw that it was not my ability to understand and receive salvation that was the key to becoming a Christian - it was God's mercy and nothing more!
You've misunderstood the Molinist argument, my dear. Molinism states that humans have the ability to understand and receive salvation ONLY BECAUSE of God's mercy!
We are indeed fallen and fully deserve death, but God still loves us and is merciful towards us because we still possess His image as we were originally created in It in accordance to His own will.
It's by His perfect, absolute will that we humans have libertarian (not absolute) free will and though we do have the ability to make choices (that of course being the cause for our sinful state), the options that stand before us were already established by God and He influences our will passively so as to get us all -elect and lost- to actively bring about His will!
Ephesians 3:10-11 ~ "His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Romans 9:17 ~ For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
But I'm grateful to have a brother in Christ like you, regardless of soteriology. God bless! 🙌
Middle knowledge is the knowledge of Would-Counterfactuals of creaturly freedom, not might-counterfactuals! It is the knowledge of what any free creature Would do if placed in a situation or what Would result from any free action. Greg seems to misunderstand, greatly, what middle knowledge does scripturally (it makes a world of difference)! For starters he seems to miss how it solves the tension between supralapsarianism and infralapsarianism by consistently maintaining a view of permissive sovereignty such that most infralapsarians attempt (obviously this is to eliminate the possibility of God being the author of sin). Molinists are very much not Arminian in persuasion lol! In fact, most Molinists hold to many tenets of Tulip but disagree with the corollaries and thus found a consistent way to include creaturely freedom and responsibility.
If I were anyone looking into this, I would suggest reading Salvation and Sovereignty by Kenneth Keathly for a scriptural introduction and a look at common implications, followed by Divine Providence by Thomas Flint for a philosophical breakdown. A lot of people are very confused and guarded who critique Molinism, so be aware of that!
For the record, I lean more towards power theism than Molinism but it sure is a lot more consistent than five point Calvinism.
No offense to Greg but I hope that whoever watches this finds other sources!
Well it really wouldn't matter what I say because according to the God of the reformers if I'm saved I can't resist the truth and if I'm not then there's nothing I can do about it since God determined what I would believe regardless of my will. It's a pointless question. All I know for sure is that in the end, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.
You don't have to shout at me (just makes you sound like those heretics on tv). I don't believe God is out there begging people to come to him. Jesus is drawing them gently (because of the cross).
Which is a better picture of love - Jesus, by his sacrifice, telling you the Father loves you and bidding you come to him or the Father programming you to come to him (you have no choice in the matter)? Which is more relational? Which makes more sense?
Sin is the result of rebellion against God. In order for someone to rebel, they must have the free will to do so or it's not rebellion. you're saying (correct me if I'm wrong) - God wrote out his entire plan before he created anything. This plan included evil and destruction and the testing, torture and murder of his Son soley so that he could bring more glory (then he had before thru out eternity) to himself. If that doesn't sound crazy then I don't know what does.
Having the knowledge of good and evil does not mean he created evil, seriously?? and Isa 45:7 does not say he introduced evil to the world, it says he creates it (chooses it, dispatches it, stirs it up). Even if God is responsible for evil and sin in the world, we know he did not cause man to fall because the bible says he does not tempt. It also says there is no darkness in him. Sin is the result of rebellion against God.
I spoke to the lady doing my pretests at the eye doctor yesterday.She was raised an Arminian,but I explained the truth of the gospel to her and she was amazed at what I said,she said she had been confused by the Bible but how what I told her made perfect sense and she thanked me for telling her,she may even attend church with us now.I pray she will.
We are not puppets. We have free will, and God does not create people to populate the Lake of Fire. Calvanism is not Christianity but a gross perversion of God's truth. "Gospel means good news, but in calvanism it is bad news because for the vast vast majority of people have no chance because God did not predestine them to salvation. Molinism and determinism puts God in a philosophical box. The box is the limits to man's intellect. God is sovereign and in his sovereignty he can create man with free will, if he can't then he is no longer sovereign.
Yes, you gave it a valiant effort. I believe I gave you plenty of scripture that points to a God who is not only righteous but love as well(actually, the entire bible is about his love for his creation and his desire to restore it). I don't know of any other pagan gods who offer love unconditionally relentless love like Yaweh does through his Son.
"... a popular view among certain philosophers that are Armininian in persuasion... " It took 20 seconds to set up that straw man and lose me.
Since Greg represented talking to WLC and confirming "God elects worlds!" I decided to correct this mistaken notion.
"Election, then, is first and foremost a corporate notion: God has chosen for Himself a people, a corporate entity, and it is up to us by our response of faith whether or not we choose to be members of that corporate group destined to salvation."
William Lane Craig states, "So-and this is the crucial point-who is it that God has chosen to save? The answer is: those who have faith in Christ Jesus."
The entire world is not saved, that is universalism. Just those who freely choose to follow Jesus.
WLC has dozens of papers, books, podcasts and email responses that deal specifically with this idea of how Molinism applies to election. The smallest amount of research by Koukl would have produced a very different video.
Don't get me wrong I love Koukl's podcasts,maned his book, "Tactics."
Read more: www.reasonablefaith.org/molinism-and-divine-election#ixzz4FQwOmwMG
Election is NOT, first and foremost a "corporate notion." That is your own personal view of election. Election began with one man: He chose Noah. He Chose Abraham. He chose each individual disciple. He chose me. Happy to make the corretion. You're welcome.
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God chose Noah because “Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God.”
God chose Abraham because “Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just, so that the LORD will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.”
God chose us because “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
There is no corporate entity with the people making it up. God chooses individuals, not nameless corporate entities. And even in Molinism, God selected the world in which these individuals believe and reject worlds in which others did believe in preference for this world. Molinism is a philosophical failure, ends in determinism, destroys true freedom, and finally, does NOTHING to rebut the objection to God from the existence of evil. Absolutely nothing.
Continued...
"Molinism: The Contemporary Debate" -Edited by Ken Perszyk
"Salvation and Sovereignty: A Molinist Approach" - Kenneth Keathley
and of course,
"One Divine Foreknowledge, Part IV of the Concordia" -Luis De Molina (translated by Alfred J. Freddoso)
I was listening with respect for Greg until he suggested that God actualized a world in which most people would choose him. What an absurd statement. The bible CLEARLY tells us, "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
Greg mis-stated that version of Molinism's view. Those Molinists that hold this view believe that the world God actualizes is the world in which the MAXIMUM POSSIBLE NUMBER OF PEOPLE come into saving faith. This maximum number of people may still be, for example, 15% of the population. So this type of Molinism doesn't believe the actual world is a world in which > 50% of people are saved. As you point out, this would seem to contradict scripture. Rather, that, for example, 15% was the highest in any possible world it would be.
I can easily say the same about you. If you are comfortable believing that God is not really the loving and just God that is portrayed throughout scripture but only righteous (based on adding into some select scriptures) peace be yours. I'm certainly not going to presume to know who is regenerated and who is not. Just keep loving God and spending time in His presence with an open heart and growing in the knowledge of Jesus Christ
What will you do when you find out God is actually the God of the reformers and He tells you He will not share His glory with another?
All due respect, scripture clearly teaches election of groups as well as individuals. It depends on the verse you read and it's context that is using the words or themes of election. So to say that election in the Bible is only talking about individuals is not true or accurate.
Interesting video. I'm having a hard time grasping everything you're saying, but I think I agree that Molinism doesn't hold up.
I have a question regarding Calvinism though:
Why can't it be that God gives all souls enough grace to where they can make a decision to bend their knee to His grace, or resist it? A sovereign king can still offer his subjects ultimatums. No?
You have to reject the Calvinist concept of Total Depravity for Molinism to even be logically possible-something I can't find any scriptural justification for doing.
As I see it, Molinism is the result of trying to interpret Scripture with philosophy, rather than allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture.
Personally, I lean towards Calvinism because of a similar reason which you pointed out, humans being depraved. That is a nature with a disposition opposed to God, which only God can reverse. But I'm not sure of what you mean by "Allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture?" If I am understanding what you mean by such a claim then I take it to mean something like the following; In order to understand scripture one ought to begin by understand scripture via understanding the language and contextual relevance of the langauge as the means of interpreting scripture therefore bringing about an understanding of scripture. If this is so then I would find it to be strange how you're not acknowledging the fact that with such an exegetical practice or belief, you yourself would be using logic, as your seeking to understand scripture, as the supreme authority to judge the syntaxic order of langauge and therefore by default bringing about your own understanding of sciptural semantics.. I hope that wasn't to much but I thought it would be necessary to write this to make clear the Craig is just doing the same thing, only he understands and seeks to understand to form of logic he uses to justify his claims. This is not to say he is correct.
+BehaviorModification "You have to reject the Calvinist concept of Total Depravity for Molinism to even be logically possible"
Why think a thing like that? Only if you assume that man does not have LFW and thus cannot respond to God's call/offer of salvation (something akin to prevenient grace), but this is entirely question begging. It requires argument, not assumption.
"As I see it, Molinism is the result of trying to interpret Scripture with philosophy, rather than allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture."
Philosophy, simply defined, just means 'reasoning' and one literally cannot avoid the reasoning process, regardless of their soteriology. Molinism is an attempt to understand how man can be free (in a libertarian sense) and God can maintain sovereignty in light of this freedom that He has given us. I do not think it makes any sense biblically, theologically, or philosophically to suggest that God unilaterally selects certain persons to be damned for all eternity, which Calvinism entails.
Have you never heard of the church councils?
These were dominated by philosophy. Monophysitism vs dyophysitism. Hypostatic union and the nature of Jesus are filled with philosophical arguments, Apollinarianism, Nestorianism, and Eutychianism all challenged the view that the one person of Christ included a human and divine nature. They are determined to be heresies by philosophical arguments.
But it is fair to say that most of the "How" questions are not answered in scripture. And how God maintains his sovereignty and allows libertarian free will (if we are in fact free) is not disclosed.
How he is all-loving and yet creates creature who he predestined to never know him and elected to damnation seems to be an easier claim to deal with on scripture than molinism. Paul Helm and Greg, and Calvin for that matter, as great as they are end up equivocating on the term "free will," and it makes passages like John 1:12, 3:16, 2Peter 3:9 incoherent unless you insert "the elect," into them.
He elected Christ the Elect One.... Any who are in Christ are elect. Any who are not in Christ are not elect. He elected Christ and those who would be in Him before the foundation of the world. He didn't elect us to be in Christ. We are ellect because we are in Christ.
Let me say,I do sympathies with you,cus it's a hard thing to come to the realization that most everything you know about the scriptures and the gospel is wrong.I was an Arminian for 14 yrs until I had my shoulder replaced and had plenty of time to study,I prayed for wisdom and understanding and was first shocked to find that scriptures didn't match with the sappy god I had been taught by men.I was angry with my past preachers and myself for not being diligent in my studies.
I don't think it's correct to characterize Craig's view of "God is only electing worlds" as being all Molinism. I don't see why it wouldn't fit with Molinism for God to know what each person would choose if they were to hear the gospel. And so based on that middle knowledge, God can select certain individuals from that subset to be his elect. Also as stated below in the comments, his view may not actually be "God does not elect persons".
The worlds God chooses from are made up of individuals and therefore God is electing individuals on the Molinistic view just as he would be on the Calvinistic view . You said you spoke with William Lane Craig to clarify this but you still have mischaracterized his views based on what I've heard him say in discussions regarding this( i.e. debate with Paul Helm on unbelievable). Please double check with him to make sure you are characterizing his view correctly.
Personally, I think that the more we know about God, the better. Categorizing God's Middle Knowledge in a different subset from his Natural Knowledge highlights the distinction between those two types of knowledge. Consciousness of this distinction adds a certain amount of richness to our understanding of the various ways that God's mind works, which can only benefit us in the long run.
Greg, I appreciate the fair characterization of molinism. I think we have to agree to disagree. Because while the view is essentially that God elects worlds, this phrase is a bit misleading. It almost sounds like astrology or some sort of mysticism hocus pocus. But the actual concept, I think, makes a lot of sense out of scripture. But although your critique was brief, it's a thoughtful one that I will consider when I read scripture.
You forgot the part that even God's elect are sinners and can't come to Christ until God gives them to Christ.The Bible is showing all men they are totally helpless to save themselves,that it is impossible for man to save Himself and that if one repents and believes it is because God made HIM BORN AGAIN FIRST so that he can.This is the Gospel and all who believe it are God's elect,all who reject are the goats.
He was the propitiation(God satisfying sacrifice) for the Jewish believers,but not only for them,but for His people through out the world.In the OT God only saved Jews and even if He saved a few Gentile they had to become a JEW.So Jews weren't aware at first that Jesus came to save Gentiles as Gentiles,this was foreign to them.Acts 11:18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”
He was the propitiation for His people,people of every tribe ,tongue and nation.ie All men,meaning not only JEWS,but Gentiles too,but not every individual.The problem is,we don't know who God made goats or sheep,so we are to share the true Gospel with everyone and that is,Jesus was God in flesh who came to save His people,He died and rose again,and whoever believes this,is His elect.The Gospel is NOT,Jesus loves you and wants to save YOU,but you must let Him.That's the false gospel.
Romans 10:1-3...
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.
This is the same problem with many Arminians who have been corrected in their belief but refuse correction,they ,like the Jews,hold to man made doctrines.
The Bible makes it crystal clear,salvation is not according to man's FREE WILL,free will in salvation does not exist,there is not one verse in the Bible that teaches it,I know,I used to be an Arminian and when challenged to find one, I couldn't. You must derive your doctrine from scripture,not impose your doctrine on scripture and that's what Arminianism is,Roman Catholic doctrine imposed on scripture.Arminianism is anti-christ doctrine that teaches man can do everything scripture says he can't.
If Jesus told you right now that He never knew you what would you say? Would you say,"but Lord I chose you when I didn't have to,I could have told you to get lost,but I CHOSE YOU by my free will''?This would mean that you believed you were saved,not by God's choice,but by something you did and everyone who hears those words are declaring what they did too.We who know Christ could only say"but LORD,I only believe because the Father made me born again so I could believe".No one says that though
I believe if you would pray for wisdom and understanding and stop listening the false teachers God will open your heart so you can and will believe,but again,if you like your idol Jesus better until you die you will hear"I never knew you"those would be the most horrifying words ever heard and if you read what those who hear them are saying you will realize that they are of the Arminian stripe.
."I believe God gives everyone a measure of faith."
This is only the elect or the sheep that are given a measure of faith,always look at the beginning of the book you are reading to see who's being spoken to.
2 Thess 3:2 and that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men. For not all have faith.
So this one verse blows Arminianism out of the water,cuz if all men don't have faith,then all men can't believe,BTW,all men means Gentiles and Jews NOT every individual who ever lived,.
" if I'm saved I can't resist the truth and if I'm not then there's nothing I can do about it since God determined what I would believe regardless of my will. "
This is true,but you must understand God uses means,He uses His word and others to give a reason why they believe and why you should believe according to the scriptures,Acts 13:48 ,,, and all who were CHOSEN 4 eternal life believed,NOT all who believed were chosen 4 eternal life.JN 10:26 but U do not believe because you are not my sheep
"I don't believe God forces anyone to do anything but perhaps I'm wrong."
He doesn't bring people to Christ against their wills,He changes their hearts and wills from God haters to God lovers without their permission.Paul wanted to go and kill Christians but God violated Paul's "free will" by turning him into one.Jesus didn't ask Paul what he thought about it,He just did it and then proceeded to tell Paul what the rest of his life would be like.
No,God only draws His sheep to Jesus,He doesn't draw the goats,all men only means Jews and Gentiles because in the O.T. Gentiles couldn't be saved as Gentiles,they had to become JEWS,but Jesus changed all that,now GENTILES could be saved as Gentiles.Acts 11:18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life."Notice,God MUST GRANT repentance to the Gentiles,this is the meaning of all men.
You never answered,why did God knowingly make men who He infallibly knew would only sin and go to Hell?God doesn't make potential evil,He created the wicked to be the wicked and to destroy them as examples to the sheep.
Prov 16:4 The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.
Your doctrine falls apart when scripture is applied,because your doctrine is false and will damn you if you believe it unto death.You still have not believe in the God of the Bible.
"The difference is, I believe God gives grace to the humble(Prov 3:34) and resists the proud(meaning we must decide to humble ourselves to Him)"
You are not humble though,you are still in rebellion to the only God who exists because you hate Him,you hate the thought of God having 100% control over your life and especially salvation and in your rebellion you choose an idol that you are more comfortable with,God will not share His Glory with another.
No,you believe you were saved by FAITH thru Grace,you think you believed and then traded that belief to God for His salvation,but scripture teaches completely opposite,we are saved by God's Grace thru faith,God has mercy on us who are His sheep and makes us alive so we will believe.You actually believe an anti-christ gospel.I think you're a nice person,but you are deceived,I just pray God doesn't leave you in your depravity.I love you enough to tell U the truth because I don't want U 2 go 2Hell.
The Greek word for draw means to drag.When a bow is DRAWN or a bucket of water from a well is drawn,it means all resistance is overcome.Have U ever heard of someone whispering to water to get in the bucket and raise itself to the top?Does one pull a bow string back or speak to it softly?All of God's sheep are compelled to come,again this means one is imposing His will on another.I know of no Christian that hates God for causing them to believe,they are all very thankful God loves them that much.
You never answered before,Why do you think God created people to only sin and go to Hell when He didn't have to?He could have either made them like the sheep or cancelled their births and no one would know the difference and please don't say He only made people with a potential to do evil because nothing is potential from God's point of view,He knows exactly what people will do and how they will end up before He ever makes them.I know why He did it,but do you have an answer for it?
Have you never read the parable of the wheat and tares?Tares are goats and the servants wanted to pull them up as soon as they sprouted,so the angels must know something we don't know.The tares can never become wheat or wheat tare.They look just alike at first,but the Master said let them grow with the wheat until they mature and then bundle and burn them.The tares are who God made for destruction to show the wheat what HE saved them from,so again,God knowingly and freely made them to burn.
So do you ever pray for people that God is already trying to save with all His might?I think you've been watching too much TBN,most of those people are out and out heretics.Jesus only prayed for the sheep when He was in the garden,He said HE WAS NOT PRAYING FOR THE WORLD,BUT ONLY for those who God gave HIM TO SAVE AND ALL WHO WILL HEAR their testemony and believe.God's sheep are the only people who can and will believe and they are who Father GIVES to the SON to be saved,no goats tho.,
Did you know all gifts and callings from God are irrevocable.The gift is like the gift of natural life,you didn't have anything to do with being born did you?And you don't have anything to do with being born again,that's why Jesus used those words.God uses anthropomorphic language when He is revealing revelation about Himself,do you think you can surprise God?God says He has wings and eyes too,but God is spirit,not a chicken.
Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done(believed), but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,
I know you disagree with this because you think you righteously believed by some manmade faith that you had within you,but those who are dead in sins cannot believe.We don't believe until we are first made alive by God(new birth),with Christ,only then can & will one believe, never b4 or else you could boast.
Arms believe God gives everyone the same amount of Faith and they believe because they are better in some way,either more spiritual,smarter,more holy or something else,while those who go to Hell do so even having the same faith.So what made you believe while billions of others don't? How can you secure your own salvation when scripture tells us that salvation is NOT BY MAN'S FREE WILL OR HE WHO WORKS FOR IT? If scripture says it's not according to one's free will,how did you choose Jesus?
There are many good explanations of Romans 9 but certainly none from any Arminians,it's about ELECTION and how God chooses whom to ELECT and that He hardens who He will and has mercy on who He will.I don't see how you can be so illogical,especially since scripture backs up everything the reformers believed.We have no free will period,all we can do are things according to our nature,never anything to please God in the flesh.Arms believe they are special while others die atheists ,we don't..
No it doesn't,it says while we are yet DEAD IN OUR SINS God made us alive by GRACE Eph 2:4-5 It doesn't say while we were dead believers,in fact the natural man (lost man) can obey any of God's commands including to REPENT AND BELIEVE.Romans 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. So it's God's choice in who He makes alive(new birth) unto belief.
Is 53:10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
Acts 4:27-28 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.
God uses men's evil against Him.So what ever men intend for evil God intends for good of the believers ,He doesn't just use the evil men do,He intends for them to do evil,that's why He bound all men up in disobedience.Men want to do evil,there is not one good person among us,so He can use evil men for whatever purpose He chooses.Check out 1kings 22,He used a spirit to make evil men LIE.
It actually means that God holds his creation to a higher standard then himself."
1 Kings 22: 20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab into
attacking Ramoth Gilead ...
1 Kings22 ;20“One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’
22 “‘By what means?’ the Lord asked.
‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets, he said.
U will succeed in enticing him,’ said the Lord. ‘Go and do it.
". It actually means that God holds his creation to a higher standard then himself."
Daniel 4:35 All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?"
You've been brainwashed to believe men instead of the word of God.The word of God is much different,man has no free will.
God's number one goal is to Glorify Himself and demonstrate all of His attributes,not just love only,He still must demonstrate wrath and justice.His mercy and love are demonstrated to everyone that He doesn't kill after their first sin.Those He foreknew(foreloved) He predestined,called,justified and Glorified,those He didn't will remain in their sin and be cast into Hell.This is God's teaching,not mine,and this is the overall Gospel the world Hates,this is why mankind hates God.
God was not forced to Create our universe or any creature in it,yet before time He wrote His book ,it contains everyone who ever will live and every event that ever will happen until the very end.Before He created He decided who would be sheep and who would be goats in His book and then He created locking in the future,just like after a author writing a book,once it's finished the book never changes.So yes,God did create people with no hope of Heaven,we just don't know who they are.
Going around saying"Jesus loves you so much He died for you"to every person you see is not Biblical and is in fact a lie in most cases,that's not the gospel ,that's the NEW manmade gospel.Go find them preaching this message to the lost in the Bible,you can't.If anyone is told that GOD chose them from before creation because He loved them and Christ died for them,they are speaking to BELIEVERS ONLY.
It's not Biblical to tell everyone God loves them and wants to save them that's what I keep telling Arminians,You are to preach Jesus was God,was killed and rose on the 3rd day,that's the gospel and whoever believes this is saved.Then in disciple ship you explain the reason why they believe the truth about Christ,because God chose them before time to believe it,God doesn't do this for everyone.
PS 139:16 You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed.
Can you comprehend what this means for every human who ever lived or ever will live?Every persons life already exists in God's book,there is no add libbing,this is why Peter could NOT not deny Jesus even with the knowledge Christ had given him,because it had already been written by God to be part of Peter's life.Free will doesn't exist.
Anyone who believes in the Sovereign God of the Bible is THE ELECT,that's how they know.That's what Arminians don't get,God causes our belief if we are the Elect,God controls every facet of every human being's life in all of History whether they believe it or not.Before the worlds were formed God wrote a book(His story) and every person's words,thoughts and deeds have been authored by God,now we are living out what He has written in eternity past Ps 139:16.
He is the teacher of those who have been regenerated,not everyone.If you deny what scripture teaches in order to hold on to man's tradition you are in sin at the very least or lost at the very worst.The Holy Spirit does not proclaim a Jesus who loves and is trying but failing to save every individual and then teach that He will save every person that He died for,these are two exclusive,contrary gospels,so one is false,care to guess which one is false?
God's sovereignty means that all God has ordained before time,men will freely do in the future .So God is not looking at possibilities as to work His plan around man's will.All men are sinful and can only use their wills to sin.God uses man's sinfulness to accomplish all of His will to glorify Himself & 4 the good of the believers --that He has chose to save BTW.God stops man's sins all the time(remember S- Paul's plans?),so man is not even "free" 2 do the evil he would like to do.
I hold to classical theism, which is perhaps best articulated by St Thomas Aquinas. For classical theism, God is outside of time and space, and therefore has fore knowledge of all of our free choices without compromising this freedom. Infact, it is a metaphor to speak of God's FORE knowledge, because taken literally this suggests that God is in the present looking into the future; but that would be misleading. Past, present and future (from our perspective) are eternally present to Him
Middle Knowledge is not "might" do but "would" do. Given certain conditions the free agent "would" respond a particular way. It's also not "freely choose God" but man can freely reject God's grace once it comes upon them. Greg, you completely mischaracterize Molinism. Also William Lane Craig absolutely agrees with individual election as well as corporate as he has defended both in his defenders class! Somehow you got your wires all mixed up on all this.
I know you can't believe the truth until God regenerates you,but God regenerates one by hearing the truth if you're just a unregenerate sheep,if you're a goat you never will believe the truth,but I have no clue which one you are so I'm trying to give you the truth hoping you are one of the sheep who is just lost.
Jesus draws all men as in JEWS AND GENTILES .Every single person that God draws to Christ is saved and raised by Christ to Glory.So Jesus gave His life a ransom for many of all men or Gentiles and Jews.JN 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him(john doe) and I will raise him(john doe)up on the last day.
Do you ever look at the explanation of scriptures you think makes a case for free will from anyone like James White or John Piper?You need to learn what reformers believe from reformers,not Arminians.One thing you need to keep in mind,you can't have scripture contradicting other scripture,if it does then you have the wrong belief and god.
Before time God chose people to be sheep and goats,He knew every individual by name,He also planned the whole future and then He created.So He created people with no hope of Heaven on purpose,His plan is not to save everyone or all would be saved.Read Romans 9:22-23 it explains why He made vessels for destruction,to be examples to those He chose for Glory before time.
As I have demonstrated through scripture,almost everything you believe about God and His word is in error yet you still continue to make unfounded claims about God in your ignorance,it's YOUR OPINION THAT YOU TRUST,NOT GOD'S WORD.I ask you now,are you ready to learn of the one true God or will you continue in rebellion as His enemy,an idol worshiper possibly bound for Hell?
He said He created Evil(Ra),He has a PURPOSE FOR EVIL or it wouldn't exist.Do you believe there is another Creator besides God?Evil exists to show the contrast of His Holiness.He commands men not to murder,yet He ordained the very men to betray and kill His Son to be the very ones to do it before time began.
It all boils down to one thing,people hate the God of the Bible and they are looking for any loop hole in order to not believe what scripture is actually saying.Many people claim to be Christian,yet they call the God of the Calvinists (who is the God of the Bible) evil.Now how can people claim to believe in the God of the BIBLE and then call Him evil?
Act 13:48 ....and as many as were chosen for eternal life believed.God chooses them,the Holy SPIRIT RENEWS THEM through the gospel and Jesus paid for them with His own blood,this is how the TRINTY accomplishes salvation,we repent and believe in response to what has been done for us(believers).
All I can say is if you have been corrected by scripture and you still refuse to believe in your heart,then you have not been regenerated yet,you still are belieeving in the god of the humanists,you just have named him Jesus,that makes him no different that the J.W,,Roman Cath.,mormon,or Muslim jesus.
That Jesus is God in flesh,He was killed,and Resurrected on the 3rd day proving who He was and all believe this will be saved when they die.The truth of why they believed comes when we make disciples.I then tell them that they believe because before time God loved them and chose them to believe Eph 1.
John 1:13
Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
How much clearer would it have to be before you can believe what the word of God is saying to show how dangerous your belief is?
Jesus hid the secrets of the kingdom of Heaven from many people,does that sound like He's trying to save everyone?Jesus only died for the sheep chosen from eternity past,not the goats, and every single person who Jesus died for will be saved in the end.
At this moment you believe in a god that doesn't exist,in fact,you are actually an atheist toward the God of the Bible,you are in very bad trouble right now.I hope the God of the Bible will cause you to believe before it's too late.
I don't believe in Universalism,I'm saying that God knew exactly who He would save before time ever began and He also knew exactly who He would not save before Creation and that Christ Died for all those He chose to save, the sheep only.
It God is already giving 100% effort trying to save everyone already,why would you ever pray for anyone?Do you think your prayers will make Him work 110%,do you give Him more power when you pray for the lost?
God wrote a book before time and like all books it has one story that does not change,we don't know what's on the next page but God does and we all will do everything that is written for us to do,pray for understanding.
Luis de Molina, Kenneth Keathley and William Lane Craig play a game of poker together.
Who's the dealer?
"Why would God create a world in which people are forced to accept Him?"
God never forces anyone to accept Him. He changes mans will and natural enmity towards Him through regeneration or the new birth.
Only the Elect will confess that's the only truth there is.Jesus was the propitiation for God's elect only,if He was the God satisfying sacrifice for everyone,everyone would go to Heaven,but they don't.
God's ways aren't man's ways,He created light before the light givers and the plants before the sun,He also called people His sheep before He saves them,so Jesus only died for the sheep,not the goats.
Ok then here is your Gospel:
1. God creates man.
2. God tells man not to sin.
3. God causes man to sin.
4. God tells man to repent of the sin.
5. God will not allow the man to repent of the sin.
6. God then holds the man accountable for the unrepentant sin and sends the man to hell to be punished for eternity.
This is your Gospel and John Calvin's Gospel. And your Gospel and John Calvin's Gospel is not a Gospel that I know from the Word of God.
No matter how you slice or dice it, I know that you're saying that God's grace is irrisistable to the elect. If that's the case, no one has a choice in the matter whether they choose to love God or not. That would pretty much negate the majority of what the bible says about believing. If that's true, then no matter how hard I try to find truth and love and serve God it won't matter one single bit if I'm not chosen. So I'm not sure why you're wasting your time on me.
Actually, I think I better picture of the grace that Calvinism presents would be like this - A Boss hands each of his 10 employees a stack of data entry and tells them it must be complete by the end of the day of they will be fired. They sit down at their computers and discover there is a password. They don't know it. Some try desperately to figure it out. The boss comes in and only gives the password to two of them. The rest are fired. How is that not favoritism?
First of all, Jesus finished the work and he is the one who said, "If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me."God gave man dominion over the earth but man lost it (prince of world is satan). That authority has been restored through Christ and only those who are in him have access to it. God uses men to accomplish his work here on earth. Prayer is the plug into the power source(God) to bring the light here (we are the lamps). That's why I pray. To bring His Kingdom here.
If you offer me a gift of a million dollars and I refuse that gift, does that mean the money is then worthless? No. It's still worth a million dollars. If I accept that money from you, does that mean I somehow earned that money? No. God offers salvation to all and it is effective only to those who accept it. That doesn't mean they did something to earn it and if they reject it that doesn't make it worthless.If God did not offer salvation to us, no one would be saved because they can't earn it.
* why or how can God be grieved or blessed by mans actions if he pre-wrote everything they would do in the first place? Why would God require obedience and belief if it's impossible? That makes no sense at all. Accepting a gift is not a work. The receiver doesn't get credit for the gift, the giver does! If I accept a gift from you does that mean I earned that gift from you? Of course not...(cont. in next post)
Oh boy do you have it wrong. I do not believe that our choosing to love God is a self righteous act** (Calvinists believe that). Without God drawing us, there is no hope, for anyone. The bible says we can't come to the Father because we are dead in sin. Jesus said he would draw all men to himself. He is the only way to the Father. If God did not create us with the ability to choose to love him you can't have a personal relationship. Over and over God talks about being grieved by man's actions*
Yes, I have read Romans a whole bunch of times lately. You have to look at the entire book of Romans to get the big picture actually. If you read past Rom 9:22-23 and read 30-33 you will see that Paul is talking about unbelief, not some special kind of election. We are chosen "in Christ" because he was chosen. I really don't want to rattle your cage. We can agree to disagree. May the Lord bless and keep you.
I believe in the Jesus that is consistent with all of scripture, not just some of it. And please, let's get this straight, I am not the one saying that the God presented in Scripture is responsible for evil, you are. I don't believe there is any evil in God or his Son. You do. I believe evil is the result of having the ability to choose to reject God. You believe we have not choice in the matter.
No. I don't believe evil is a created thing. It is the corruption of that which is good. You are basically either saying that in order for good to exist you must have evil and I don't agree (or there would be evil in Heaven). Or you are saying God just simply wanted evil so that he could give himself more glory and I don't agree that God needs to do that. If what you are saying is true then the bible is wrong. It says there is no iniquity found in God (1 Jn1:5). He is able to use it.
I agree that once God says something he doesn't change it. I have a serious problem with the idea of predestination that reformed theology presents because it does not portray God's love in the way that the bible does. To say we can't understand God's love is hogwash. The bible is very clear as to what God's love is. God would not purposely write a story involving evil (which would make him the author of evil). Evil is a by product of free will. The corruption of God's perfect goodness.
That sounds like a very weak and very limited and conditional gospel to me. I guess it would have to take a pre-programmed faith to believe it. It doesn't sound anything like the gospel that I know. It certainly limits God's love for his creation. No matter how you massage it to sound good it is not unconditional love based on the biblical definition of love. It actually means that God holds his creation to a higher standard then himself.
No one is saying that Jesus failed. He accomplished his work on the cross. Just because some reject the truth doesn't make it any less true. The bible never says that every person is saved (universalism), it says that through faith by grace it is available to all. Those who accept it are taken out of the world (chosen) and are in Christ. The gift is not flawed simply because someone refuses to accept it.
This is a late reply, but I feel compelled to respond.
What you have asserted is false. Molinism has been appealing to both Calvinists and Arminians. See Kenneth Keathley of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. He was partial to the Reformed but then found that the doctrine of middle knowledge helped regardless of what side of fence you fell on (see his book: Salvation and Sovereignty). Unbalanced arminians? Couldn't it just be that all Christians trying to form our theological pictures?
Greg Koukl is a great guy, but his denial of Molinism is based on semantics. A "possible world" is the set of state of affairs containing individuals. For more readings on Molinism, see the following:
"The Only Wise God" -Bill Craig
"Divine Providence" -Thomas Flint
"God, Freedom, and Evil" -Alvin Plantinga
"Divine Foreknowledge and Human Freedom" -Craig
"The Problem of Divine Foreknowledge and Future Contingents From Aristotle to Suarez" -Craig
"The Nature of God" -Edward Wierenga
@EverydayRevival any calvinist that acts like there's no case for free will in the bible has already shown their painfully biased on the issue. that's completely not the case. additionally, there's no way to move from the things the bible DOES say about god's sovereignty to the things calvinists say it clearly and conclusively says. i say this sorta thing to arminians who say there's no biblical case for calvinistic views also. the fact is both views ARE biblical, hence the truth is both.
@EverydayRevival any calvinist that acts like there's no case for free will in the bible has already shown their not painful biased on the issue. that's completely not the case. additionally, there's no way to move from the things the bible DOES say about god's sovereignty to the things calvinists say it clearly and conclusively says. i say this sorta thing to arminians who say there's no biblical case for calvinistic views also. the fact is both views ARE biblical, hence the truth is both.