When I watched this story, words like segregation, apartheid and racism come to mind. Beyond the terrorism and war, are people on both sides that want peace. It can be achieved, but not when one people are looked upon as being inferior. Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
I remember the feeling of joy and relief 9 years ago when peace really seemed possible in the middle east. Talks where going so well. Then on 28 September 2000, Sharon and an escort of over 1,000 Israeli police officers visited the Temple Mount complex, site of the Dome of the Rock and al-Aqsa Mosque, the holiest place in the world to Jews and the third holiest site in Islam. Sharon declared that the complex would remain under perpetual Israeli control. Cont...
Congressional researchers have disclosed that between 1974 and 1989, $16.4 billion in U.S. military loans were converted to grants and that this was the understanding from the beginning. All past U.S. loans to Israel have eventually been forgiven by Congress. What Israelis actually got in U.S. aid is considerably less than what it has cost U.S. as long as the U.S. runs an annual budget deficit, every dollar of aid the U.S. gives Israel has to be raised through U.S. government borrowing
Another thing, the Palestinians wanted their own country, but yet you see on the internet they are complaining that they want benefits of Israeli citizenship such as access to hospitals. There ARE Arab-Israelis, even Arabs who choose to serve in the Israeli Army. That's another thing, an Arab-Israeli is not required to serve in the IDF, whereas all Jewish Israelis are (with some who get exemptions). Arab-Israelis have more rights than Arabs in any other country.
pid, International Law makes a clear distinction between land "occupied" during a war of aggression and land taken as a result of a defensive war. 67 was a defensive war.
The only way to solve this problem is for the two sides to forgive each other, learn to live together and move on. Unfornately, I don't think that's ever going to happen. What a sad situation. These two societies are stuck in horrible limbo for eternity.
prune, I read your comment, and wanted you to understand that there are places more densely populated, however those other places do not suffer with terrorism. That was my point! Please read and try to understand
"International law does in no way allow for land to be returned to the aggressors in a defensive war" just assess the validity of that statement alone. Enough said.
we as Canadians belong in Canada, and jews belong in jerusalem, and jerusalem=west bank.....let the jews stay the Arabs lived there for 2000 years and it was all dry land... but the jews have only been there for less then 100years and it is green. and healthy...
prune, Her home was not hit by Israeli ammunition...her home was next to a mosque that was used as a rocket storeplace and when the mosque was hit, there were many blasts which were much stronger from all the rockets. And that is what happened to her house! This is all on record!
Additionally to that I strongly urge you to read Mr. Finkelsteins books because they show his positions very clearly. Mr. Finkelstein openly supports the two state solution as a means to end the violence. That puts him well within the centered worldview of the issue. Mr. Finkelstein repeatedly expressed criticism towards the Israeli governments and political movements but never against the state or the people of Israel. I also strongly advise you to revise your previous statements.
Danny Ayalon, Yisrael Beitanu (Israeli political party) candidate recently said: "You have to really believe in a jewish state, a Zionistic state. This is the reason detre, this is the nature of our country. And this is something you really have to believe in and pledge allegiance to. To our flag, to our anthem to our history This is why we specifically take measures introducing legislation, by which, without loyalty there will be no citizenship." BIG BROTHER HAS SPOKEN
In terms of trade Israel has a special favoured trading status with both the US and European Union, and is able to trade freely with many of its neighbours. In terms of travel Israelis are free to travel around most of the world. The people of Gaza are not currently able to enjoy any of these privileges. I hope somewhere inside you are able to see the history and current conditions from their perspective as I often try to see the Israeli perspective.
"Even before Israel invaded Gaza, a growing number of Israelis and Palestinians had concluded that peace between them was no longer possible" Yeah, the year was 1948.
Some of them tried that, but it doesn't work that way. The guy who is not allowed to return to Jerusalem is just another example of that. There is a lot of civil injustice inflicted by Israel to its own Arab citizens. Another example would be the people that demonstrated against the Gaza offensive that took place earlier this year. They violently disbanded the demonstrations and there was no word about it on the news.
p4, Are you saying that the Germans gave the Jews weapons? Most of the weapons used in 1948 by the Jews were smuggled from Czech. When Israel declared its independence in May 1948, the army did not have a single cannon or tank. Its air force consisted of nine obsolete planes. December 5, 1947, the U.S. imposed an arms embargo on the region.
prune, All of those examples were so that they would not be communists, since that was all within the era of the cold war. You need to understand that at that period, USSR (communism) and USA (democracy) were in a world war (without the actual arms firing.) I remember well learning about communism in school and being told that we needed to prepare for an all out war. Don't know your age or where you were, but in USA it was a real threat. In other words, it was not about dictators.
The 67 war was a defensive war. You need to read up on it. It was after the armies of the Arabs were ready to attack. That is defensive. To show you in another way, if a man runs up to you with a knife, do you have to wait for the knife to cut you, or will you try to defend yourself prior to the knife slicing you? Self defense is legal action and the knife doesn't have to cut you. Killing the person with the knife is legal. What else could you do?
tube, Israel tried to do just that. In 2005, Israel completely left Gaza, 8,000 Israelis were forced to leave their homes and livelihood, farms, greenhouses, stores, etc. The Palistinians finally had a land to call their own and Israel though that she would have some quiet. Instead, Israel got a constant barrage of rocket fire from within Gaza to Israeli cities. After 8 years of the rocket fire which in the end was up to 100 rockets a day, Israel went into Gaza to stop the rockets.
Ismail Haniyeh, Prime Minister of the Hamas government in Gaza, stated in 2008 that the group was willing to accept a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders. He also has offered Israel a long-term truce. Hamas describes its conflict with Israel as political and neither religious nor antisemitic.
abbienetvision admittedly the status of that land was, and is, a complex and contentious issue, but one thing is sure, the UN at no point gave that land to Israel. In fact The UN have passed several resolutions demanding that Israel stop illegally occupying that territory. Only the unprincipled support of the US and a hand full of its fawning supplicants prevents international action being taken against this occupation.
prune, Absolutely it is Israeli land. FYI..who am I? I was a left wing Israeli till the Oslo Accord. I was fighting to give Palistinians land, until Rabin did. The result was thousands of terror attacks. There are loads like me in Israel that finally had to open our eyes to the truth, the Palis DO NOT WANT PEACE!!! The love death, blood and war and no land will change them. I used to go to Peace Now rallies, now I am a rightwinger. There is no choice. Tried giving land for peace.
Abbie You appear to have misunderstood my main criticism. That first video was put together by Israeli propagandists who titled the film Palestinian girl: Hamas responsible for war placing that message in large letters at the start of the film. The Palestinian girl in the video had just suffered a terrifying ordeal. While she lay asleep with her 6 siblings, her home was hit by Israeli munitions, bricks and rubble fell on them, her sister, lying right beside her, was killed. Continued
History of Hebrew: In the Bible "Hebrew" is called Yehudith (יהודית) because Judah (Yehuda) was the surviving kingdom at the time of the quotation In Isaiah 19:18, it is also called the "Language of Canaan" (שְׂפַת כְּנַעַן
Firejack007- You wouldn't say that the Israelis are acting Nazi-like? The term Nazi isn't "thrown around", it's used to describe a horrific act, like the one we're witnessing. The term "Nazi" is the first thing that comes to mind when a rational person sees something as inhumane and disgusting as this.
(some instances of this, where caught on film and can be seen on TH-cam). As far as I am aware no IDF soldier has ever been tried for these abuses. During this period many Palestinian homes where stolen or simply bulldozed. Palestinians where on many occasions attacked by settlers (yes there where instances of the reverse happening but on those occasions retribution by Jewish settlers, or the IDF was generally swift and harsh). Continued
I don't share the view that Israel and the UN ofrering the Palestinians 45% of there own land in 1948 was so generous, and am not surprised they tried to keep the land. Instead of being gratfull for the 55% of Palestine they got,. a lot of Israelis seem to want the lot.
p4, I always direct my comments, if they are directed at someone! ALWAYS. The only time that I may not put it, is if I am writing something that can stand alone and still be comprehensible.
Abb You also tacked on the statement: It is not about land! That is a very superficial analysis. The Gaza strip is approximately 4 miles wide (7.5 miles in places), by 25 miles long, and has a population of about approximately 1.4 million people many of whom are refugees (or descended from refugees) from Israel (ie previous Israeli ethnic cleansing). It is among the most densely populated places on earth. If Israel withdrew from the west bank, many could be re-housed there. Land IS relevant!
How many 2000 nations are there that fulfill a dream to return to their ancient homeland ? Its not a simple issue for one nation to extract itself from its exile and then to displace the residents of the land they once called home. This is not a simple matter at all, We cannot ignore the ancient dream, the millions who died for not having a homeland, nor can we ignore the basic human rights issues, So who can be wise enough to say what is right here ?
On a superficial level, In terms of the immediate problems, just at the moment, Israel America, and Europe would appear, on the surface of things, to have the most power to influence the course of history. In reality this amounts to a complex coalition of people and groupings of people, ALL of whom operate with varying degrees of ignorance and self interest. If people in power continue to under-appreciate this reality, then this present western culture will not last. Tribalism is a dead end.
Abb, in 70 ad Jews where expelled from Jerusalem, but not all of Judea. Under Roman supremacy/rule (which lasted nearly 200 years) many Jews (just like many Palestinians now), refused to take occupation lying down The Roman emperor Hadrian crushed a major revolt in135ad (the last of a series of Jewish revolts). After this most of the surviving Jewish population either abandoned Judaism, were expelled, or sold into slavery. I hope in the 21st century behaviour will be more enlightened.
p4, You wrote, "The social disadvantages you describe were only accurate in the early Islamic period. Most of these inequalities were revoked in later times. " Prove it what years.
Yes, the israeli government did make some effort to dismantle some settlements (and in a few instances succeeded), but violent civil action by settlers and Zionist extremists, and lack of widespread commitment within the Israeli establishment, resulted these policies having little impact. In fact there where more settlers on the west bank in 2000 than at the start of that peace process in 1993. Continued
Abb since Israel continue to occupy arias of the west bank in violation of international law, and repeatedly defy calls by the UN to withdraw from these arias, I see little reason to believe claims that they would have abandoned the west bank settlements. As I mentioned earlier, there where more illegal Israeli settlers in the west bank in 2000 than in 1993 when Israel signed the Oslo accord (under the conditions of which Israel was supposed to dismantle Illegal settlements).
prun, The idfnadesk channel has the live footage of all the defensive action taken by Israel. You can see the targets, from the pilots view, as well as the explosions which resulted.
Who bombed a densely populated area with outlawed white phosphorus? Who imprisoned an entire population? Who is starving 1.5 million people? Who killed almost 1000 civilians in Lebanon? Who is in constant violation of 35 UN Resolutions? Who is ignoring rulings of the world court of justice?
My point was that the Palestinians are not a member state of the UN. They do however have observatory status. I find it very impressive how you fail to interpret the most basic statements and then answer to your own misconceptions. Also the entry of Russia into Georgia was a reaction of Russia to the Georgian killing of it's own citizens. Russia has complied to every demand and deadline which were requested by Germany, France and the UK.
p4, There were ZERO deaths from the bread. How can you compare food poisoning, which almost everyone has had at one time or another to rockets fired daily, which have led to deaths, amputations, burns, property damage on a grand scale, etc? Or to suicide bombers which kill great numbers at one time? If you want to compare, then please be fair.
p4, I never accused anyone of anything. International law does in no way allow for land to be returned to the aggressors in a defensive war, and that is what I wrote previously. It is not called theft, when it is in self-defense. The land given by the UN in 48 in W.Bank was never recognized by Jordan, otherwise let that part of Israel become Jordan and stop taking money from the Israelis. Israel is fine with that, but the Jordans do not want the palis either.
p4, You wrote "Even the Haaretz an Israeli newspaper described the rocket attacks as retaliatory. The peace deal was repeatedly broken by Israel" Can you even prove this????
prune, Just look at the vid if you don't want to read about the 67 war. It was a defensive war. v=J0dT3hqmzGw And in face, that is why the UN resolution does not call for a return of "all the" territory. This was on purpose, as I explained previously.
prune, The Arab states received nearly three times as much aid before 1971, $4.4 billion, or $170 million per year, plus all the money from oil. Israel's GNP is higher than the combined GNP of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza. Just look at all of the great things Israel has done with help from USA. What did the Arab countries do with all their US money? Palistine is also receiving more money from the US than any other body. They also get it fro Europe.
abbienetvision you say land acquired in a defensive war does not have to be given back to the aggressors 1 There is much controversy over the 67 war, no foreign forces entered Israeli territory. Please Wiki six day war. It is impossible for any educated, fair minded, person to believe that this was a defensive pure and simple. 2 Your statement has no basis in international law anyway.
If it were a land fight then why didn't any of the fighting stop after Israel left Gaza 100%? The rocket fire from Gaza is what led to this recent Gaza incursion.
Just because you are numb to reason doesn't mean that the UN is hypocritical The only fault of the UN is that they give to much power to America. Additionally to that I strongly recommend that you read up on how the UN works. The UN only passes resolutions to observer states if they are in conflict with member states.
The original PLO Charter stated that "Palestine with it's boundaries that existed at the time of the British mandate is an integral regional unit" and sought to "prohibit... the existence and activity" of Zionism (not Judaism ) within it's borders. They retracted from that statement in the early 80's. So I don't see how your statement bears any validity regrading the PLO.
Regarding the first quote which calls for the obliteration of Israel. The person they quote there, Hassan al-Banna was assassinated in 48 long before the Hamas was founded(1987). The Hamas charter refers to him but does not contain the Quote.
United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3379, adopted on November 10, 1975 by a vote of 72 to 35 (with 32 abstentions), "determine[d] that Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination".
You can't undo Genocide. The only thing one could hope for is that both people eventually overcome their differences and find a peaceful solution. Seeing that settler lady, makes me doubt that though. But oh well, hope dies last, right?
Abb I asked: "You dont think the rocket firing had anything to do with Israels continuing blockade of Gaza?" Your reply: "Absolutely not. The blockade was in response to the terrorists." I didnt ask, why was the blockade put in place (Israels blockade included, to some extent, the restriction of food, clothing, medical supplies, and energy supplies. How are these relevant to terrorist acts? Except in the context of collective punishment?). Now could you properly answer my first question?
Israel broke the cease fire. It is impossible to draw any conclusions regarding the financial damage, because there are no official damage reports available yet. 1300 lives seem like a very high price to me though.
prun, You didn't mention your joy and relief 9 years ago? 9 years ago Israel had lots of suicide bombers and terrorism from the peace loving palis. I remember 9 years ago also, while living in Israel seeing so many deaths, from bombed buses, malls, discos, pizza places, etc. It was shit in Israel and that is why the wall was put up, which has really helped to stop the suicide bombers. That is why the borders are closed from Gaza, so they do not get into Israel.
p4, Don't bother to take into consideration that Israel was declared a state by the UN also in 1948. I am glad that you do agree that G-d gave Israel to the Jews though. At least we agree on one thing!
The UN sent aid to both Darfur and Rwanda. Military intervention was prevented by one state in both instances... America. American politicians wanted in both instances the African Union to take care of things to save American Tax Money. There are more than 100 Resolutions against Israel. That says everything. 50 more were blocked by US Vetos just think about that for a second.
No I am saying the US gave among other things German weapons to Israel. The K98k is a pretty good example of that, because it was even used in the Yom Kippur war which took place 73.
(in many cases are direct descendants of those people). In terms of life experience/culture try to remember the different postures and attitudes that Muslims, Christians, and Jews have adopted to each other over history depending on the circumstances. Yes you will find tribalism with all of its by-products of, bigotry, exploitation, paranoia. You will also find hints that people can see beyond that immediate perspective. In this atomic age can we really afford the naked tribal perspective?
Quin, The death toll at Deir Yassin -- as confirmed by a study at Bir Zeit University -- was half of what was claimed, there is no evidence that even a single woman was raped, and many of the casualties were combatants killed during the fighting. We see this pattern still today, like the UN School where 45 kids were killed, who is to blame v=lSoCd0ovIvM Are the death figures in Gaza accurate, how many died of natural death and were listed as killed by Israeli fire, etc?
p4, WRONG again! In total, the Nazis established 356 ghettos in Poland, the Soviet Union, the Baltic States, Czechoslovakia, Romania, and Hungary between 1939 and 1945.
if humanity was good... then there wouldnt be a place for religion at all. BTW, the root of religious fundamentalism (which plagued the middle east peace-making process) is the desire for POWER and removing dissent.
p4, 18 mortars were fired into Israel, 6/23. 20 rockets were fired 6/24, when 3 rockets hit the Israeli town of Sderot. On 6/6 farmers working in the fields of Nahal Oz were attacked by light arms fire from Gaza. On the night of 8/15 Palestinians fired across the border into Israel. 10/31 IDF patrol spotted Palestinians planting an explosive device near the security fence in the area of the Sufa crossing. As the patrol approached the fence the Palestinians fired two anti-tank missiles
I don't think it is that simple. If Israeli authorities really wanted peace they would dismantle the checkpoints and reduce the number and size of the settlements. But if you look at the map, they keep growing and growing under all Israeli governments. The ironic thing is that these settlements in the long run make the two-state solution impossible and that will only make Israel more and more a binational state.
p4, If it were a land fight then why didn't any of the fighting stop after Israel left Gaza 100%? The rocket fire from Gaza is what led to this recent Gaza incursion.
The video shows film of her being interviewed the following day. This 7 year old Palestinian girl, clearly in a traumatised condition, describes this ordeal and just at the end says, Hamas is responsible for all wars. Whatever her reason for saying that, is it valid to exploit this statement, of a 7 year old girl, tragically girl caught up in a complex, harrowing, and bloody series of events, far beyond her ability to fully understand? Continued
I never claimed that the original Canaanites did speak Arabic, and as P47RICK points out this information proves nothing.. Conquered peoples have often adopt the language of their conquers. Its a fairly safe bet that the surviving ancestors of stone age British settlers have at various times, spoken Celtic, Latin, Nordic, Saxon, and modern English. Continued.
Boycotting means not to buy products that were produced in Israel not actual ideas and concepts. Boycotting Israel as a whole however is unfair because you would punish an entire nation for the deeds of a minority.
I never said "Who were the Palestinians in 48?". Stop making things up. I made a mistake though, the question I intended to ask was: "Who the hell do you think gave German weapons to the Jewish people in 48?". "By your comment, you have admitted that there were no palis historically on Israeli property." If you really believe that I strongly urge you to pick up a history book.
p4, I asked a specific question, in regard to a specific period and a specific situation. Please don't try to prove your point when you are twisting times. Where is the recent resolution (2008) agaist Russia/Georgia?
The dhimmi had to show public deference toward Muslims-always yielding them the center of the road. The dhimmi was not allowed to give evidence in court against a Muslim, and his oath was unacceptable in an Islamic court. To defend himself, the dhimmi would have to purchase Muslim witnesses at great expense. This left the dhimmi with little legal recourse when harmed by a Muslim.
p4, The cease fire of 08??? Today 4 rockets came into Israel. Yesterday rockets came into Israel. The day before rockets came into Israel. The cease fire is working out just like before, but Israel will not let these animals start firing 100 rockets a day without returning the kindness.
prune, You said, "the people, now known as Palestinians, lived along side Jews for hundreds of years. " The Arabs have never lived along side Jews without persecution, polgrums, and killings, as well as demmi taxation. NEVER, not prior to Israel or since Israel's existence.
Abbienetvision As it happens Im not a Muslim, but since learning about the Nazi holocaust, and the way far to many Germans just ignored what was going on Ive tried not to ignore killing and oppression especially by my own sides allies. PS You dont think the rocket firing had anything to do with Israels continuing blockade of Gaza?
p4, Yes, the Jewish population in Israel dwindled after the UK limited the number of Jews allowed to settle there. If not for that there would have been lots more Jews in Israel. Jerusalem was a majority of Jews anyway, FYI.
When I watched this story, words like segregation, apartheid and racism come to mind. Beyond the terrorism and war, are people on both sides that want peace. It can be achieved, but not when one people are looked upon as being inferior.
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
This is an AMAZING report...we need more reports like this!
I remember the feeling of joy and relief 9 years ago when peace really seemed possible in the middle east. Talks where going so well.
Then on 28 September 2000, Sharon and an escort of over 1,000 Israeli police officers visited the Temple Mount complex, site of the Dome of the Rock and al-Aqsa Mosque, the holiest place in the world to Jews and the third holiest site in Islam. Sharon declared that the complex would remain under perpetual Israeli control.
Cont...
Congressional researchers have disclosed that between 1974 and 1989, $16.4 billion in U.S. military loans were converted to grants and that this was the understanding from the beginning. All past U.S. loans to Israel have eventually been forgiven by Congress.
What Israelis actually got in U.S. aid is considerably less than what it has cost U.S. as long as the U.S. runs an annual budget deficit, every dollar of aid the U.S. gives Israel has to be raised through U.S. government borrowing
Lucky for you ...you have a reason to celebrate. A Grad missle landed in Ashkelon about an hour ago. Loads of damage and one person injured.
Another thing, the Palestinians wanted their own country, but yet you see on the internet they are complaining that they want benefits of Israeli citizenship such as access to hospitals. There ARE Arab-Israelis, even Arabs who choose to serve in the Israeli Army. That's another thing, an Arab-Israeli is not required to serve in the IDF, whereas all Jewish Israelis are (with some who get exemptions). Arab-Israelis have more rights than Arabs in any other country.
You are the one to talk.
pid,
International Law makes a clear distinction between land "occupied" during a war of aggression and land taken as a result of a defensive war.
67 was a defensive war.
psy,
Thank you for telling some of the haters here the truth, like I have been trying. We need more like you here. :)
The only way to solve this problem is for the two sides to forgive each other, learn to live together and move on. Unfornately, I don't think that's ever going to happen. What a sad situation. These two societies are stuck in horrible limbo for eternity.
prune,
I read your comment, and wanted you to understand that there are places more densely populated, however those other places do not suffer with terrorism. That was my point! Please read and try to understand
"International law does in no way allow for land to be returned to the aggressors in a defensive war" just assess the validity of that statement alone. Enough said.
we as Canadians belong in Canada, and jews belong in jerusalem, and jerusalem=west bank.....let the jews stay the Arabs lived there for 2000 years and it was all dry land... but the jews have only been there for less then 100years and it is green. and healthy...
"Yeah, the year was 1948. "
Quoted for Truth!!
prune,
Her home was not hit by Israeli ammunition...her home was next to a mosque that was used as a rocket storeplace and when the mosque was hit, there were many blasts which were much stronger from all the rockets. And that is what happened to her house!
This is all on record!
To further answer your question:
1716, 1752, 1781 and 1808 are the resolutions concerning the situation in Georgia.
Is it really that astounding to you after seeing how this lady claimed that taken over the Westbank was her generation's duty?
Additionally to that I strongly urge you to read Mr. Finkelsteins books because they show his positions very clearly. Mr. Finkelstein openly supports the two state solution as a means to end the violence. That puts him well within the centered worldview of the issue. Mr. Finkelstein repeatedly expressed criticism towards the Israeli governments and political movements but never against the state or the people of Israel. I also strongly advise you to revise your previous statements.
Danny Ayalon, Yisrael Beitanu (Israeli political party) candidate recently said:
"You have to really believe in a jewish state, a Zionistic state. This is the reason detre, this is the nature of our country. And this is something you really have to believe in and pledge allegiance to. To our flag, to our anthem to our history This is why we specifically take measures introducing legislation, by which, without loyalty there will be no citizenship."
BIG BROTHER HAS SPOKEN
In terms of trade Israel has a special favoured trading status with both the US and European Union, and is able to trade freely with many of its neighbours. In terms of travel Israelis are free to travel around most of the world. The people of Gaza are not currently able to enjoy any of these privileges. I hope somewhere inside you are able to see the history and current conditions from their perspective as I often try to see the Israeli perspective.
"Even before Israel invaded Gaza, a growing number of Israelis and Palestinians had concluded that peace between them was no longer possible"
Yeah, the year was 1948.
prune,
You forgot to mention that prior to 67 W.Bank was not annexed by Jordan.
Some of them tried that, but it doesn't work that way. The guy who is not allowed to return to Jerusalem is just another example of that. There is a lot of civil injustice inflicted by Israel to its own Arab citizens. Another example would be the people that demonstrated against the Gaza offensive that took place earlier this year. They violently disbanded the demonstrations and there was no word about it on the news.
p4,
Are you saying that the Germans gave the Jews weapons?
Most of the weapons used in 1948 by the Jews were smuggled from Czech.
When Israel declared its independence in May 1948, the army did not have a single cannon or tank. Its air force consisted of nine obsolete planes. December 5, 1947, the U.S. imposed an arms embargo on the region.
prune,
All of those examples were so that they would not be communists, since that was all within the era of the cold war. You need to understand that at that period, USSR (communism) and USA (democracy) were in a world war (without the actual arms firing.)
I remember well learning about communism in school and being told that we needed to prepare for an all out war.
Don't know your age or where you were, but in USA it was a real threat.
In other words, it was not about dictators.
you are probably right
The 67 war was a defensive war.
You need to read up on it. It was after the armies of the Arabs were ready to attack. That is defensive.
To show you in another way, if a man runs up to you with a knife, do you have to wait for the knife to cut you, or will you try to defend yourself prior to the knife slicing you? Self defense is legal action and the knife doesn't have to cut you. Killing the person with the knife is legal. What else could you do?
tube,
Israel tried to do just that. In 2005, Israel completely left Gaza, 8,000 Israelis were forced to leave their homes and livelihood, farms, greenhouses, stores, etc.
The Palistinians finally had a land to call their own and Israel though that she would have some quiet. Instead, Israel got a constant barrage of rocket fire from within Gaza to Israeli cities.
After 8 years of the rocket fire which in the end was up to 100 rockets a day, Israel went into Gaza to stop the rockets.
Ismail Haniyeh, Prime Minister of the Hamas government in Gaza, stated in 2008 that the group was willing to accept a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders. He also has offered Israel a long-term truce.
Hamas describes its conflict with Israel as political and neither religious nor antisemitic.
abbienetvision admittedly the status of that land was, and is, a complex and contentious issue, but one thing is sure, the UN at no point gave that land to Israel. In fact The UN have passed several resolutions demanding that Israel stop illegally occupying that territory. Only the unprincipled support of the US and a hand full of its fawning supplicants prevents international action being taken against this occupation.
When Finkelstein had the choice between his career and his integrity he chose the latter. I find that very admirable.
prune,
Absolutely it is Israeli land. FYI..who am I? I was a left wing Israeli till the Oslo Accord. I was fighting to give Palistinians land, until Rabin did. The result was thousands of terror attacks.
There are loads like me in Israel that finally had to open our eyes to the truth, the Palis DO NOT WANT PEACE!!! The love death, blood and war and no land will change them.
I used to go to Peace Now rallies, now I am a rightwinger. There is no choice. Tried giving land for peace.
Abbie You appear to have misunderstood my main criticism. That first video was put together by Israeli propagandists who titled the film Palestinian girl: Hamas responsible for war placing that message in large letters at the start of the film. The Palestinian girl in the video had just suffered a terrifying ordeal. While she lay asleep with her 6 siblings, her home was hit by Israeli munitions, bricks and rubble fell on them, her sister, lying right beside her, was killed.
Continued
History of Hebrew:
In the Bible "Hebrew" is called Yehudith (יהודית) because Judah (Yehuda) was the surviving kingdom at the time of the quotation
In Isaiah 19:18, it is also called the "Language of Canaan" (שְׂפַת כְּנַעַן
How's about we mind our own business and just let the locals fight it out. This is not America's war.
Firejack007-
You wouldn't say that the Israelis are acting Nazi-like? The term Nazi isn't "thrown around", it's used to describe a horrific act, like the one we're witnessing. The term "Nazi" is the first thing that comes to mind when a rational person sees something as inhumane and disgusting as this.
(some instances of this, where caught on film and can be seen on TH-cam). As far as I am aware no IDF soldier has ever been tried for these abuses. During this period many Palestinian homes where stolen or simply bulldozed. Palestinians where on many occasions attacked by settlers (yes there where instances of the reverse happening but on those occasions retribution by Jewish settlers, or the IDF was generally swift and harsh).
Continued
p4,
While he was saying that, how many rockets were fired into Israel and how many rockets were being built in Gaza?
agreed
zr,
Do you happen to remember what happened to the camp david talks and why they were not successful?
I don't share the view that Israel and the UN ofrering the Palestinians 45% of there own land in 1948 was so generous, and am not surprised they tried to keep the land. Instead of being gratfull for the 55% of Palestine they got,. a lot of Israelis seem to want the lot.
p4,
I always direct my comments, if they are directed at someone! ALWAYS. The only time that I may not put it, is if I am writing something that can stand alone and still be comprehensible.
Abb You also tacked on the statement: It is not about land!
That is a very superficial analysis. The Gaza strip is approximately 4 miles wide (7.5 miles in places), by 25 miles long, and has a population of about approximately 1.4 million people many of whom are refugees (or descended from refugees) from Israel (ie previous Israeli ethnic cleansing). It is among the most densely populated places on earth. If Israel withdrew from the west bank, many could be re-housed there. Land IS relevant!
How many 2000 nations are there that fulfill a dream to return to their ancient homeland ? Its not a simple issue for one nation to extract itself from its exile and then to displace the residents of the land they once called home. This is not a simple matter at all, We cannot ignore the ancient dream, the millions who died for not having a homeland, nor can we ignore the basic human rights issues, So who can be wise enough to say what is right here ?
On a superficial level, In terms of the immediate problems, just at the moment, Israel America, and Europe would appear, on the surface of things, to have the most power to influence the course of history. In reality this amounts to a complex coalition of people and groupings of people, ALL of whom operate with varying degrees of ignorance and self interest. If people in power continue to under-appreciate this reality, then this present western culture will not last. Tribalism is a dead end.
Abb, in 70 ad Jews where expelled from Jerusalem, but not all of Judea.
Under Roman supremacy/rule (which lasted nearly 200 years) many Jews (just like many Palestinians now), refused to take occupation lying down
The Roman emperor Hadrian crushed a major revolt in135ad (the last of a series of Jewish revolts). After this most of the surviving Jewish population either abandoned Judaism, were expelled, or sold into slavery. I hope in the 21st century behaviour will be more enlightened.
you humans are so hopeless ,you are unable to exist in the same world with each other in peace I feel so sorry for you.
p4,
You wrote, "The social disadvantages you describe were only accurate in the early Islamic period. Most of these inequalities were revoked in later times. " Prove it what years.
Yes, the israeli government did make some effort to dismantle some settlements (and in a few instances succeeded), but violent civil action by settlers and Zionist extremists, and lack of widespread commitment within the Israeli establishment, resulted these policies having little impact. In fact there where more settlers on the west bank in 2000 than at the start of that peace process in 1993.
Continued
Abb since Israel continue to occupy arias of the west bank in violation of international law, and repeatedly defy calls by the UN to withdraw from these arias, I see little reason to believe claims that they would have abandoned the west bank settlements. As I mentioned earlier, there where more illegal Israeli settlers in the west bank in 2000 than in 1993 when Israel signed the Oslo accord (under the conditions of which Israel was supposed to dismantle Illegal settlements).
prun,
The idfnadesk channel has the live footage of all the defensive action taken by Israel. You can see the targets, from the pilots view, as well as the explosions which resulted.
Who bombed a densely populated area with outlawed white phosphorus? Who imprisoned an entire population? Who is starving 1.5 million people? Who killed almost 1000 civilians in Lebanon? Who is in constant violation of 35 UN Resolutions? Who is ignoring rulings of the world court of justice?
My point was that the Palestinians are not a member state of the UN. They do however have observatory status. I find it very impressive how you fail to interpret the most basic statements and then answer to your own misconceptions. Also the entry of Russia into Georgia was a reaction of Russia to the Georgian killing of it's own citizens. Russia has complied to every demand and deadline which were requested by Germany, France and the UK.
p4,
There were ZERO deaths from the bread. How can you compare food poisoning, which almost everyone has had at one time or another to rockets fired daily, which have led to deaths, amputations, burns, property damage on a grand scale, etc? Or to suicide bombers which kill great numbers at one time?
If you want to compare, then please be fair.
p4,
I never accused anyone of anything.
International law does in no way allow for land to be returned to the aggressors in a defensive war, and that is what I wrote previously.
It is not called theft, when it is in self-defense.
The land given by the UN in 48 in W.Bank was never recognized by Jordan, otherwise let that part of Israel become Jordan and stop taking money from the Israelis. Israel is fine with that, but the Jordans do not want the palis either.
p4,
You wrote "Even the Haaretz an Israeli newspaper described the rocket attacks as retaliatory. The peace deal was repeatedly broken by Israel"
Can you even prove this????
me too
prune,
Just look at the vid if you don't want to read about the 67 war. It was a defensive war.
v=J0dT3hqmzGw
And in face, that is why the UN resolution does not call for a return of "all the" territory. This was on purpose, as I explained previously.
prune,
The Arab states received nearly three times as much aid before 1971, $4.4 billion, or $170 million per year, plus all the money from oil. Israel's GNP is higher than the combined GNP of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza. Just look at all of the great things Israel has done with help from USA.
What did the Arab countries do with all their US money?
Palistine is also receiving more money from the US than any other body. They also get it fro Europe.
abbienetvision you say land acquired in a defensive war does not have to be given back to the aggressors
1 There is much controversy over the 67 war, no foreign forces entered Israeli territory. Please Wiki six day war. It is impossible for any educated, fair minded, person to believe that this was a defensive pure and simple.
2 Your statement has no basis in international law anyway.
If it were a land fight then why didn't any of the fighting stop after Israel left Gaza 100%? The rocket fire from Gaza is what led to this recent Gaza incursion.
Just because you are numb to reason doesn't mean that the UN is hypocritical The only fault of the UN is that they give to much power to America. Additionally to that I strongly recommend that you read up on how the UN works. The UN only passes resolutions to observer states if they are in conflict with member states.
The original PLO Charter stated that "Palestine with it's boundaries that existed at the time of the British mandate is an integral regional unit" and sought to "prohibit... the existence and activity" of Zionism (not Judaism ) within it's borders. They retracted from that statement in the early 80's. So I don't see how your statement bears any validity regrading the PLO.
Right the cease fire of 08 fell just from the sky.
Regarding the first quote which calls for the obliteration of Israel. The person they quote there, Hassan al-Banna was assassinated in 48 long before the Hamas was founded(1987). The Hamas charter refers to him but does not contain the Quote.
so what is the differance between hitler, stalin, and franco?
United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3379, adopted on November 10, 1975 by a vote of 72 to 35 (with 32 abstentions), "determine[d] that Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination".
You can't undo Genocide. The only thing one could hope for is that both people eventually overcome their differences and find a peaceful solution. Seeing that settler lady, makes me doubt that though. But oh well, hope dies last, right?
shame on the world
Abb I asked:
"You dont think the rocket firing had anything to do with Israels continuing blockade of Gaza?"
Your reply:
"Absolutely not. The blockade was in response to the terrorists."
I didnt ask, why was the blockade put in place (Israels blockade included, to some extent, the restriction of food, clothing, medical supplies, and energy supplies. How are these relevant to terrorist acts? Except in the context of collective punishment?).
Now could you properly answer my first question?
Israel broke the cease fire. It is impossible to draw any conclusions regarding the financial damage, because there are no official damage reports available yet. 1300 lives seem like a very high price to me though.
prun,
You didn't mention your joy and relief 9 years ago? 9 years ago Israel had lots of suicide bombers and terrorism from the peace loving palis. I remember 9 years ago also, while living in Israel seeing so many deaths, from bombed buses, malls, discos, pizza places, etc.
It was shit in Israel and that is why the wall was put up, which has really helped to stop the suicide bombers. That is why the borders are closed from Gaza, so they do not get into Israel.
p4,
Don't bother to take into consideration that Israel was declared a state by the UN also in 1948.
I am glad that you do agree that G-d gave Israel to the Jews though. At least we agree on one thing!
The UN sent aid to both Darfur and Rwanda. Military intervention was prevented by one state in both instances... America. American politicians wanted in both instances the African Union to take care of things to save American Tax Money. There are more than 100 Resolutions against Israel. That says everything.
50 more were blocked by US Vetos just think about that for a second.
No I am saying the US gave among other things German weapons to Israel. The K98k is a pretty good example of that, because it was even used in the Yom Kippur war which took place 73.
(in many cases are direct descendants of those people).
In terms of life experience/culture try to remember the different postures and attitudes that Muslims, Christians, and Jews have adopted to each other over history depending on the circumstances. Yes you will find tribalism with all of its by-products of, bigotry, exploitation, paranoia. You will also find hints that people can see beyond that immediate perspective. In this atomic age can we really afford the naked tribal perspective?
p4,
prior to the comma is to whom I am referring...didn't know that? Very Sad!
I know Finkelstein's history well.
The social disadvantages you describe were only accurate in the early Islamic period. Most of these inequalities were revoked in later times.
Quin,
The death toll at Deir Yassin -- as confirmed by a study at Bir Zeit University -- was half of what was claimed, there is no evidence that even a single woman was raped, and many of the casualties were combatants killed during the fighting.
We see this pattern still today, like the UN School where 45 kids were killed, who is to blame v=lSoCd0ovIvM
Are the death figures in Gaza accurate, how many died of natural death and were listed as killed by Israeli fire, etc?
p4,
WRONG again!
In total, the Nazis established 356 ghettos in Poland, the Soviet Union, the Baltic States, Czechoslovakia, Romania, and Hungary between 1939 and 1945.
Well usually they do much worse things than just occupying a house.
if humanity was good... then there wouldnt be a place for religion at all.
BTW, the root of religious fundamentalism (which plagued the middle east peace-making process) is the desire for POWER and removing dissent.
p4,
18 mortars were fired into Israel, 6/23.
20 rockets were fired 6/24, when 3 rockets hit the Israeli town of Sderot.
On 6/6 farmers working in the fields of Nahal Oz were attacked by light arms fire from Gaza.
On the night of 8/15 Palestinians fired across the border into Israel.
10/31 IDF patrol spotted Palestinians planting an explosive device near the security fence in the area of the Sufa crossing. As the patrol approached the fence the Palestinians fired two anti-tank missiles
I don't think it is that simple. If Israeli authorities really wanted peace they would dismantle the checkpoints and reduce the number and size of the settlements. But if you look at the map, they keep growing and growing under all Israeli governments. The ironic thing is that these settlements in the long run make the two-state solution impossible and that will only make Israel more and more a binational state.
p4,
If it were a land fight then why didn't any of the fighting stop after Israel left Gaza 100%? The rocket fire from Gaza is what led to this recent Gaza incursion.
The video shows film of her being interviewed the following day. This 7 year old Palestinian girl, clearly in a traumatised condition, describes this ordeal and just at the end says, Hamas is responsible for all wars. Whatever her reason for saying that, is it valid to exploit this statement, of a 7 year old girl, tragically girl caught up in a complex, harrowing, and bloody series of events, far beyond her ability to fully understand?
Continued
I never claimed that the original Canaanites did speak Arabic, and as P47RICK points out this information proves nothing.. Conquered peoples have often adopt the language of their conquers. Its a fairly safe bet that the surviving ancestors of stone age British settlers have at various times, spoken Celtic, Latin, Nordic, Saxon, and modern English.
Continued.
Boycotting means not to buy products that were produced in Israel not actual ideas and concepts.
Boycotting Israel as a whole however is unfair because you would punish an entire nation for the deeds of a minority.
I never said "Who were the Palestinians in 48?". Stop making things up. I made a mistake though, the question I intended to ask was:
"Who the hell do you think gave German weapons to the Jewish people in 48?".
"By your comment, you have admitted that there were no palis historically on Israeli property."
If you really believe that I strongly urge you to pick up a history book.
p4,
I asked a specific question, in regard to a specific period and a specific situation. Please don't try to prove your point when you are twisting times. Where is the recent resolution (2008) agaist Russia/Georgia?
The dhimmi had to show public deference toward Muslims-always yielding them the center of the road. The dhimmi was not allowed to give evidence in court against a Muslim, and his oath was unacceptable in an Islamic court. To defend himself, the dhimmi would have to purchase Muslim witnesses at great expense. This left the dhimmi with little legal recourse when harmed by a Muslim.
p4,
The cease fire of 08??? Today 4 rockets came into Israel. Yesterday rockets came into Israel. The day before rockets came into Israel. The cease fire is working out just like before, but Israel will not let these animals start firing 100 rockets a day without returning the kindness.
@HottyAsakura they were expelled just fyi, they didn't leave willingly
The Osman empire allowed Christians and Jews on their territory and protected them as long as they paid tax.
prune,
You said, "the people, now known as Palestinians, lived along side Jews for hundreds of years. "
The Arabs have never lived along side Jews without persecution, polgrums, and killings, as well as demmi taxation.
NEVER, not prior to Israel or since Israel's existence.
oct,
Hamas has never made any attempt to negotiate with israel, since they do not recognize Israel as a state.
Abbienetvision As it happens Im not a Muslim, but since learning about the Nazi holocaust, and the way far to many Germans just ignored what was going on Ive tried not to ignore killing and oppression especially by my own sides allies.
PS You dont think the rocket firing had anything to do with Israels continuing blockade of Gaza?
p4,
Yes, the Jewish population in Israel dwindled after the UK limited the number of Jews allowed to settle there. If not for that there would have been lots more Jews in Israel. Jerusalem was a majority of Jews anyway, FYI.
p4,
You say 97% of the land was not on the table. Can you prove it?
If it wasn't for religion people would find something else to fight over, believe me.