In the commentary for this episode the actor playing Oberyn says that he trained in wushu for the fight, presumably to give the feeling of the Dornish being "different" from the rest of westeros and somewhat exotic. He is basically using the Partisan in the same manner as a Chinese Qiang.
***** Well actually, Wu means martial, and Shu, means art, and Wu Shu was originally referred to what military people practiced. However....in the modern era, it does tend to refer to competition fighting.
MariusThePaladin Actually, he started off as a fight choreographer, but the sequences he came up with were too cool not to use, but too hard for the actor to pull off, that they eventually just recast him as Maul, AFAIK
scholagladiatoria You should read the way the scene is written in the books. Oberyn's fighting style is much closer to what you describe, he uses the point of the spear to thrust, counter Gregor's reach and feint, specifically targeting the armpit and other gaps in his armour. " The Red Viper landed a quick thrust on the Mountain's belly to no effect. Gregor cut at him and missed. The longspear lanced in above his sword. Like a serpent's tongue it flickered in and out, feinting low and landing high, jabbing at groin, shield, eyes." ""You raped her." Prince Oberyn parried a savage cut with his spearhead. "You murdered her." He sent the spearpoint at Clegane's eyes, so fast the huge man flinched back. "You killed her children." The spear flickered sideways and down scraping against the Mountain's breastplate." "Prince Oberyn tilted is dented metal shield. A shaft of sunlight blazed blindingly of polished gold and copper, into the narrow slit of his foe's helm. Clegane lifted his own shield against the glare. Prince Oberyn's spear flashed like lightning and found the gap in the heavy plate, the joints under the arm. The point punched through mail and boiled leather... The spearhead went through the back of the knee this time, through the layers of chain and leather between the plates on thigh and calf." Presumably the show changed it up because Wushu is more visually unique and interesting.
+Miles Curtis Watson -Cheaper to shoot and more believable on-screen. It takes carefully prepared shots to show Oberyn punch through armor and find gaps--it would have taken much more shooting time, blood squibs, effects to show the spear punching through...all to the effect of showing just how very brutally damaged and incapacitated The Mountain would have been after all that punishment. This way we see all of Oberyn's skill, but we can imagine the Mountain fighting back longer and staying on his feet and......well, yeah, the other thing in both versions (if you could actually see onscreen the damage in the book...it'd come off much less believable).
+Bluemilk92 Agreed, the blinding sun reflected off off the polished shield was one of the parts i loved most as well. Oh and the part where Gregor cuts some spectators arm off and the crowd cant get away fast enough.
+Juan Ceberos A man can refer to himself in the third person if a man desires to. +Oberyn Why did you have to gamble your life for a confession, you reckless idiot?!
Not only that, they also both had shields and helms, and it took place before sunrise, so when the sun DID rise, it made the fight a lot more interesting.
So many people have asked me about this fight, and I haven't watched it yet. I wanted to read the books first, and I'm finished with them now but haven't started watching the series yet. From the few clips I've seen it seemed to me that Oberyn is being too fancy, whirling around too much. But I guess you have a point, if he wants to provoke and humiliate his opponent that might be excusable.
this fight isn't even in the books, there's a time jump at the start of one of them so a lot of stuff in this series was stuff they didn't 'show' in the book.
I used to think like that but now if I can I will watch the adaptation first. You'll enjoy the adaptation and then you read the books and think "Wow, even better." What happens if you do it the other way around? "That isn't right. That wasn't done well. Why did they even do it like that?" That said: I did fly through the books after some cretins spoiled many important plot points for me. That is a very compelling reason to read these books as soon as you can.
The "hitting the armor" part can be kinda excuseable to me, since Oberyn wanted Gregor to confess. "No no no, you can't die yet. You haven't confessed!" - Oberyn to Gregor
One big point to not forget is that the weapon of Oberyn was poisoned. That might be a reason he likes to cut, so he gets the poison in…. On top his first goal is to get the confession not to just kill the mountain and of corse to show of and to make clear to Tywin that he is coming for him. I actually was a bit disappointed by the mountain since he seem to not really fight but just smashes everything by brute force….
Christian Kunert Smashing through brute force is Gregor Clegane's fighting style, and it obviously works pretty damn well. The Mountain is wounded constantly (he actually had a few unhealed wounds during the trial in the book), but he hardly feels it because he's heavily addicted to milk of the poppy.
Agreed..., and IMO, it's another reason why Oberon was moving and spinning, waiting for that poison to set in and start disorienting him mentally as much as debilitating him physically, at which point he could punish him with the partizan. One of the best fight scenes in the series.
Oberyn wasn't trying to be "fancy." He stretches the fight out because he wants the Mountain to confess to raping his sister and then murdering her and her children. Oberyn actually tells the Mountain at the beginning of the fight to confess now so that he can make it quick. Oberyn could have just killed the Mountain right out of the gate if he wanted to, but that would have ruined his entire reason for coming to Kings Landing (he didn't really give a shit about a wedding).
There's also the fact that there are very few openings to the Mountains armor. Yes Oberyn is a better fighter, but if he goes right in for the kill the Mountain is going to be expecting it and will be able to counter. Slowing him down and then going for the weak spots is a smarter move.
OriginalPai He was trying to be fancy. The two aren't exactly mutually exclusive. He wanted to hear a confession from Gregor and was toying with him for most of the fight but that doesn't mean that he wasn't also showing off. He started showing off before the fight even started.
OriginalPai He was trying to be fancy as well though. He kept looking at the crowd and his wife and smiling at them through the fight. That's basically what made him lose. He was looking at the crowd after one of his fancy tricks and the Mountain took advantage of the moment to pin him down on his back and crush his head. I suspect that's why Elliana wants revenge so badly. She secretly blames herself because he was trying to impress her.
+annaknowsu I think OriginalPai's implication was that it wasn't meant to be just fancy, with no real meaning behind it, like most fight scenes are in Hollywood. Oberyn had clear and valid reasoning behind the way he was fighting. He knew doing so would put himself at risk, but he felt it was a necessary risk. Most of the time when you see fighting like that, it's completely unnecessary.
Spoiler warning: Plot explains most of these caveats. The rest is the fantasy factor, since the mountain was supposed to be freakishly big and strong, even bigger (a foot taller) and stronger than the actor. Any human that size would have to wear himself down just from the movement and the weight of the armor and all the swinging. In five minutes he would have to be exhausted, judging from his energy consuming, gung-ho style fighting. Strength and stamina have trade offs after all. Heavy weight MMA fights last minutes and Clegane was supposed to be about twice as heavy as those guys without armor. Not to mention the heat, dehydration and bleeding from many cuts. Even adrenaline only goes so far. The many cuts were probably meant as a way to poison The Mountain as well as other things mentioned. For a poison (plot device) to work it doesn't have to penetrate deeply and more contact with the flesh is more important than deeper impact (in the context of this fight, not generally). That would also explain the flashy movements, he wanted to to cut as many times as possible. The poison was supposed to cause agonizing pain and slow death and the taunting was supposed to illicit a confession, which did work, even though it got him killed. There was nothing foolish or naive about it, he willingly took that risk. He knew what he was doing. The objective for Oberyn was not to kill, had that been the case he would have done so without the flashy movements. There were openings for thrusts and he would just have to wait for the injuries and fatigue to wear the opponent down. Then he could have drove the spear in the exposed neck and it would be over. But he needed the confession and willingly risked his life to obtain it.
daddyleon As I said, that's the fantasy factor. Gregor Clegane (AKA The Mountain) had a thick armor (indestructible even with a mace or warhammer) and wielded a two handed greatsword in one hand. That part is probably unrealistic and definitely not historically accurate.
+Simon Željko Hahaha yes, GoT isn't really historically accurate, indeed. Some parts are also slightly unrealistic xD I thought you were talking about 'normal' armour, and I've heard (and seem some demonstrations) that it's not at all hella restricting you movement, speed and endurance. Though... I'm certainly no expert.
+daddyleon Though, (I'm no expert) would the Mountain's armour and height and length of sword be of no advantage? If I was in his position I imagine that I would fairly easily corner him with my huge breadth of body mass and range of sword thrusts and be pretty much invulnerable to to anything the Viper did in the few seconds that the fight would last.
dragons123ism Mountain's sword was freakishly long (6 feet!), but a spear is longer. Therefore no reach advantage, no speed advantage and very limited stamina. In a hallway (any limited space) the Mountain would have the advantage, in the arena not so much. If the Viper has no room to move away (and counterattack), you would be correct. Duel is different than a battle, where you are bound to fight in close quarters eventually (in the context of medieval combat). The sheer strength and near invulnerability of the Mountain would be invaluable. He's a medieval battle tank both on horse and on the ground. A dual is one man against one man, you can focus on one opponent, you have room to move and you can't exploit the terrain to your advantage.
I think that what a lot of people might be forgetting is that other less tangible things make a huge difference in a fight too. Things like confidence in your own ability, over- or underestimating an opponent and just pure energy and aggression. So I think flourishing your weapon, showing off a bit, isn't dumb at all. Maybe you can intimidate your opponent a bit, surprise him, make him slightly insecure. As long as you're not taking dumb risks I don't see a reason not to.
also remember the crowd,, his sister watching,, all eyes on him,, oberyn is a show off at heart,, likes the big spectacle,, likes to impress,,this is a big event,, the judging of royalty,, when the crowd is behind you,, you feel a crazy rush of adrenaline,, just like gladiators and football players,,
One of my favorite fights in Thrones is the Hound in the tavern -- down and dirty like a real fight as opposed to flashy. Any thoughts on that? Great posts, thank you.
I'm not very familiar with the story, but from what I've seen it the Mountain seems a bit socio/psycho-pathic so I wonder why he wouldn't have just confessed at the start unless he was too focused on just killing Oberyn... or refusing to give him what he wanted.
@@AccidentalNinja the only thing the mountain was scared of was Tywin Lannister. He wouldn't confess unless he was angry enough to no longer care, because confessing would implicate Tywin.
Your review made alot of sense to me and it was in a refreshing tone aswell, meaning you don't have this arrogant way about you in that one mocks fights made for entertainment, who can only see the negative. This review seemed balanced and fair.
The actor was trained in Wushu for this fight hence the spear twirling. His blade is also tipped with poison, and as you know the mountain was wearing armor don't know if thrust would really work at all, and yeah he was WAY better than the mountain and was indeed "toying" with him, he was waiting for a confession.
***** "Wu shu" is literally "martial arts" in Chinese. What the term stands for in modern time is completely irrelevant. Also, it doesn't change the fact that the actor trained in Wushu for the choreography. Might as well have trained in Tai chi, if it helped in ACTING OUT a fight. It doesn't matter if it's practically dancing.
***** It wasn't used to choreograph an actual fight, so to say. It was used mostly for the flashy, show-offy bits of twirling and flamboyance. You're tunnelvisioning a bit - example: just because you learn Latin in school doesn't mean you can't speak Swedish with a Swede, and use a Latin phrase to sound smart in that same conversation, nos concordant? ;)
***** That is wrong. There are tons of wushu styles, as the word naturally encompasses all the Chinese martial arts - all from striking to grappling. I've practiced wushu under grand master Louis Linn and there was nothing resembling dance whatsoever in what I was taught. It was full contact striking with all eight points, and grappling in the same general philosophy as BJJ, for example. In general a pretty modern combat style and definitely all about defeating an opponent.
***** What exactly are Kung Fu films all about then? Good lord! Wu Shu is what practically all Hollywood martial arts fights are based on. It looks flamboyant and because it's a standardized system you can have two people choreograph a wonderful Wu Shu display. I practiced Wu Shu myself, 12 Golden Styles. It's exactly because it looks like dance and flows so well that it is used in fight scenes extensively. Some movies use Krav Maga, but I see no Israeli's complaining that their very real and useful martial art is being compromised in some way because it's in a Hollywood movie. Wu Shu looks awesome when practiced well, that's all there is to it!
When I was a kid, we were playing soccer (football), and a boy from the other team launched the ball back in by holding it over his head and doing a handspring bouncing on the ball and releasing as he made the full rotation. I was intimidated by his superior skills, so we see how useful flourishes can be. People tend to want to impress others, so usefulness may not be the primary factor.
I like the fact you actually took the time to review this, and it really speaks for HBO that they took the effort to make it as realistic as possible. thanks
I hope you keep doing these movie fight scene reviews. It's refreshing to have the perspective of someone that has trained with classical weaponry give insight while also explaining how something that might not be entirely correct could still fit within the context of the story. Really enjoying these videos. Please do more in the future.
A very fair and interesting video. As someone with very little knowledge about actual historical combat, having someone gauging the quality of a theatrical combat is neat. Not only does it help learn, it also helps me notice how much dedication is put into the show itself.
As a good Sword Fighter-If you had to fight someone like Clegane in a real duel-How intimidated would you feel by his extreme Size and Strength? You've touched on the Relative unimportance of Strength in Swordplay, but this would be a very extreme case. Such a giant could wear thicker armor, carry a longer and heavier sword, etc. .....RVM45
Interview from actor does confirm Wushu was part of the design on Oberyns fighting style. "the production of Game of Thrones actually put me in some pre-training before I went to Europe to start shooting. I was put intro some classes with a master of Wushu, an acrobatic martial art, and they put me with a master, his name is Master Hu, and he has a studio in Los Angeles where he sort of basically showed me the basics and taught me how to fight with a spear and twist my body around and move in ways I never thought possible. And this was a guy who actually did Shaolin movies with Jet Li very early in Jet Li's career, and fought alongside him as his sidekick, so he was the real deal. Then once I got to Europe and started shooting, there were really intensive fight rehearsals with me and the stunt team that was headed by C.C. Smiff, and other actors, and we did a lot of fight choreography and rehearsals. The Oberyn style of fighting is inspired by Wushu."
oberyn was my new favourite character and what do they do? crush his head of coarse, he also seems to have been the only one who prefers spears (or spear like) which i really like
The bullshit to the fight was the Mountain getting up after being stabbed in the chest cavity, injured enough that there's blood in his mouth, and then having the strength to grapple and crush Oberyn's head. I mean, I don't care how tough the Mountain is. People don't get up after having 4-6 inches of steel stabbed into their torso with the strength to kill a man bare-handed, adrenaline or not. That and Mountain was swinging around a longsword as if it weighed a hundred pounds. If he was as strong as they said, it should have been quick and effortless.
BADALEX but would never have the strength to cursh bone. and even then talking clearly. btw those mortally woundedn then died of. but (spoiler allert) the mountain just survived all of this and then thing with the poison. that he can survive even longer when half of his body is alreaady fuul of puss and melted. just plain stupid shit. i expected better from george rr martin.
the mountain is like that because in the book he frequently took some dose of milk of poppy daily to ease the pain of his gigantism. Combine that with his entire life of bruttish nature
It is probably because he's wearing plate and the sword must be fairly heavy i imagine even if he is very strong. I think also this is the first time he has faced against that particular style of fighting style with a spear. by the looks of it he's more used to sword fights and battlefields where he can make better use of his strength and size to beat/cut people down got no experience with neither spears or swords so i cant really say with any degree of certainty. personally what martial experience i have is with full contact karate for about 2 years so nothing major.
Pedro Pascal had trained in Wushu for like 2-3 months before even showing up on set for his first day of shooting. The weapons trainer said he was the most prepared actor he'd ever had the pleasure of working with and did most of his own "stunts". Basically Pedro Pascal is as amazing as Oberyn Martell.
The book was more realistic. There he kept distance and relyed on thrusting and the Mountain caved his skull in using a gauntlet. Even a 2.5m 200kg guy could not crush the head using his weight unless he jumps on it (so-called mustang kick, combines the strength of the kick with the body weight).
Take this as you will; apparently some people tested Hafthór Björnsson's grip strength, crunched some numbers and found out that it *was* theoretically possible for someone with his strength to crush a person's head like that. Dude is one of the strongest people in the world, after all.
Daniel O'Regan I have seen some calculation that speak against it. However he might be strong enough to punch his head in, just as many people would be able to cave a head in by stomping it.
What is unrealistic (at least as portrayed in the TV series) is that Oberyn, after being much quicker and more agile than The Mountain for the whole scene, somehow once he is tripped up, clumsily drops his weapon and is unable to roll away from or evade a mortally wounded Clagane. Clagane had the point of a spear buried 20cm into his chest and while he is bleeding out he is able to subdue and kill an uninjured Oberyn?
I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on the Westley vs. Inigo Montoya fight from the Princess Bride. It's obviously over the top (it was the 80s), but I think it's well done for the most part.
Oberyn might fight in an authentic manner. The mountain however fights really really awfully bad in this fight. He doesnt seem to know how to use a broadsword and runs towards Oberyn with open cover.
True;) But that doesnt change the fact that he uses the sword like a hammer and doesnt show any sign of sword mastery. I was very dissapointed by the fight the mountain put up. The ending however was very well done.
+Vogel Strauss (Nordkindchen) If you're a Mountain you don't need skill. The Mountain could put enough pure force behind his sword to kill a knight in plate.
Pfff....what did Jon Snow say again? "My father told me tall men just die as quickly as small men if you stick em in the heart". If you cant hold your cover it doesnt matter how tall or strong you are. And the mountain lacked the very basics of combat skill in that scene.
+Vogel Strauss (Nordkindchen) As other's have said the Mountain doesn't need alot of skill with his weapon, he strikes hard and breaks through guards, and he wears armor so heavy that the average person needs to be extremely precise to hit him. He is essentially a barbarian holding a club. That's how he fights it isn't good but it worked for him against everyone except for the highly skilled. (remember this guy is used to simply cleaving through a bunch of peasants with no training, and no idea on how to defend against a power house like the Mountain.) I think, that besides Oberyn most of the other named fighters could beat him. Such as Eddard, Jaime( Before he lost his hand) Bron, and others could beat him it would be a real tough fight because he just wears such hard armor to get around. But they would be able to do it.
It was well established that Oberyn was one of the most skilled fighters in the world. He knew that he was going to win and he made no bones about it. He was clearly taunting Gregor through his comments and antagonistic behavior. There was no chance for Gregor to win except for the way it happened. It was a great fight to watch all around if you understood all of this as you watched it. It was clear that even before the fight started that Gregor was militarily going to lose. He just made a very poor judgement call on how to treat Gregor after he had defeated him in combat. If he had left Gregor to lay there in defeat he would have won the day.
One thing that bothers me about Game of Thrones is that nobody uses shields! I thought sword and shield went together like peanut and jam, but ain't nobody carrying a shield in Game of Thrones. I could be terribly wrong, of course, but wouldn't city guard/soldiers be outfitted with shields? I understand if Wildlings don't use em, but why don't the Night's Watch? They're basically a military organization with standardized equipment across the board. Or pretty much any Knight for that matter? I suppose they might be bothersome to travel with, but you're wearing a full suit of bloody armour for goodness sake, where's your shield?
When plate armour reached the point of covering pretty much the whole of body, shields generally went out of use, and were replaced by a greater focus of polearms. However, it's interesting to note that in the books Gregor did actually use a shield with his two hander.
Ser Rodrik and most Stark soldiers use shields, as well as Ser Vardis of the Vale and the Unsullied. Still, I totally agree. Shields are way underutilized in the show. Especially when considering all the heraldry involved in the series, you'd think there would be shields all over the place with house sigils and such on display.
I think part of the reason why shields are so rare among the knightly classes of Westeros is that they all wear some manor of heavy armor and therefore don't need them. Notice that the people who do use shields tend to be clad in mostly leather armor.
You might want to do a video about the weapons and especially tactics of the Dothraki. Personally, I think light cavalry that is addicted to hair-on-fire charges are suicidal but the characters in the books and show are quite impressed by them.
You seem quite knowledgable about fighting, do you think Wushu could work in terms of practicality? I mean, it's supposed to be divided in two 'aspects'. A more theatrical side, with a lot of acrobatic stunts and the sort, and a fighting side featuring a variety of fighting techniques and grapples and the like. They have respective names but I can't recall them right now. Anyway, is the latter good?
Lady Stoneheart I think that the WuShu I have seen is basically a flashy display version of the original practical martial art we can see in Chinese treatises. Chinese martial arts have been subjected to many different motivations and influences in the last couple of centuries and I think it's great that some people are starting to look back at the old Chinese combat treatises to reconstruct what traditional Chinese fighting arts actually looked like.
scholagladiatoria I believe so as well, that's why I want to learn wushu anyway. I was just wondering if, at least using the wushu that is being taught today, one could go toe to toe against a HEMA practitioner
Lady Stoneheart Yes absolutely as long as you look at the proper martial techniques instead of the flowery forms. Having said that, some of the flowery moves can be used to confuse an opponent, thus disguising some attacks before the opponent knows it is coming (the ribbon on the pommel of a chinese broadsword - the dao - is often used to disguise the location of your blade's attacks - best used against less experienced opponents, but can still work). This is more of a 'trick' though. I prefer not to use the ribbon because it can tangle itself around your own wrist to the untrained or against an industrious opponent who might use it against you. The fact is that most people don't really understand martial wushu because of PC opinions formed from watching too many Jet Li style movies (remember he uses wires for style), so most people think it is no good for defense. Most of these people haven't even trained in wushu or have only focused on the competition forms rather than the more effective and lethal techniques. This is why, I suspect, that a lot of people do not take it seriously, because when training in a crippling or killing technique we all hold back during training so as not to kill each other!!! Remember that a lethal art will always look uneffective to people that try to knock people out and not kill. But that's the nature of a lethal martial art - we train in it but don't use it unless in the most extreme circumstance, and even then depending on a countries laws if what you do is deemed 'too much force' you're looking at a jail term.
Lady Stoneheart I was always taught "It not necessarily your technique that wins, but it is how well trained the warrior is." - A master samurai would easily beat someone who was a novice at gladius and shield, whereas a master of gladius and shield will easily beat a novice with a katana. Its an age old argument. Technique is of course necessary, but generally, the better trained, the more likely to win I think (although their are some really talented people out their that are just naturals, but this is a rarity - I've seen a guy with only ballet and backyard bokken training trounce an experienced fencer at his own art in the first prctice bout he ever had - fencing guy really did not like it I tell you and got the whole club to gang up on the guy that beat him because he was so humiliated. That really put me off the fencing world - there are too many people there that take a defeat way too seriously when they should be treating it as a learning experience). The fact is, the backyard bokken guy was a natural - he went on to win the state championship. Even after that, the guy he defeat badmouthed him and got others to gang up on him. Needless to say, the natural left for another style of sword art that demands respect over the glaring need to always win and thus not learn a bloody thing.
RexiousX Wow..thanks for taking the time to write all this stuff, lol. You sound like you've spent some good time learning the language of war! Truth is, I had already come to your conclusion, that it's more about practice than style, and I really am fond of wushu, but alas I didn't find a single wushu school in my area. This place is infested with pretenders who say they teach wushu but when I asked for details, they don't teach sanshou, they don't teach acrobatics because (god forbid) they're afraid of getting *hurt*, they don't even teach practical use of the weapons. Just some sanda techniques and..mostly running around, actually. And I tried 3 different schools, dammit! ..did I just rant on you? I'm terribly sorry
I think there is also another point in hitting the armour. Most of the time, Oberyn hit it with no force. In a battle you want to move the weapon of the opponent to a point in which he cannot protect his uncovered parts of the body. So, definitely, part of a battle is made by HITTING THE OPPONENT WEAPON. The uncovered parts are usually small, especially for the mountain that has a full armour. If you try ONLY to hit him in those spots, you end up being predictable. It is the reason for which you have to take into account to hit and move the weapon ALSO in useless place, to be somehow close to the opponent weapon AND to not make the opponent easy to forecast where your weapon is, when he wants to parry/move/disarm/break your weapon.
The rapid movement of the spear is designed to achieve two goals, the first is to enable cutting blows with the spear head moving at a substantially higher speed than a swing would normally be able to achieve, and the second is to provide a limited passive defence, where the spear shaft has a reasonable likelihood of at least interfering with a strike against the spear wielder... it wasn't just to show off.
Rick Parks Yes... you also see it later in the fight as well, both as a guard and to deliver strikes... having used the same technique myself I can say that its reasonably effective. Of course, I'm sure that you'd like to tell me now what distance you usually consider dropping into whatever guard you're using, but about 10ft when using longer weapons seems appropriate to me.
in defence of the song of the ice and fire series i have to say that as well as they made the hollywood choreography of this fight, in the book oberyn simply skips around stabbing the mountain as you should do with a typical medieval spear ^^
They go away too much between attacks instead of trying to kill each other. The Mountain didn't stomp Oberyn when he was on the ground. He just brushed his sword and let him stand up a couple times.
What are historical accounts of weapons coated with poison? Oberyn's partisan was soaked in the venom - so my question is, would such thing be practical because a poisonous blade is a risk for a user as well, right?
I wrote a paper one time on the use of poisoned weapons, and there's a ton of history there. Mostly for hunting, but a lot in warfare too. Any weapon can be dangerous to the user, but if you feel the risk is worth the reward, then you take the chance. It's a good equalizer. especially if you're using a bow or atlatl and dart.
This movie fight review series is great! I'd just like to recommend reviewing a fight from The Lord of the Rings. Personally, I'd like a review of the fighting done by Aragorn and/ or Boromir against the Uruk-Hai in the last fight scene of the Fellowship of the Ring. A review of fights against multiple opponents could be an interesting change of pace from the duels we've had so far. Just food for thought
Speaking of helmets, that small little element makes the book fight scene so much better. As cool as the face break was, punching through a helmet into the cranial cavity is just pure bad ass.
Something I hate about Game of Throne fight choreography; No one uses their spare hand, they just use their big ass swords with one hand and have their free hand hanging around... doing nothing. Grab a shield, hold your sword with two hands, do something! Because of this and the typical Hollywood crap I think pretty much every fight in GoT sucks. Especially the Viper vs Mountain fight, it was supposed to be one of the most tactical and skilful fights in the series, but instead we got flashy Wushu. And the Mountain couldn't even hold his sword properly.
Nice review! Just wanted to add that Oberyn also poison his blades (watch as he prepares for the fight his squire rubs his blades with a yellowish cloth, coating them). This way even the smallest cut would cause the Mountain to get weaker. Hence the handle - Red Viper
Hey, Matt, the spear isnt a partizan at at alliv taken a look online, and honestly i dont see any spikes or lugs on his spear./.. its just a flamberge bladed spear with a kinda of tassel at the base like a chinese qiang and a decorative bronze snake around the base of the blade.. its honestly JUST a spear it doesnt have ANY of he lugs or wings or spikes of a partizan or bohemian ear spoon. what it DOES have is a flamberge blade which would slightly increase the slicing and drawcutting potential of the thing.
As for Oberyn's twirling, I read in an interview with the actor (Pedro Pascal) that he received a bit of instruction in Wu-Shu Kung-Fu staff fighting as part of the fight choreography.
Yes please review The Hound vs Brienne because on its own, i thought it was very entertaining and brutal which i loved (besides the outcome), but taking into account real techniques it looked like someone like yourself would be cringing at the inaccuracies to actual sword fighting
scholagladiatoria I noticed that your recent 'Longsword bind in the movies vs how fast that fight should be over' video also applies nicely to the Hound vs Briiyan of Tarth.
@1:19 Why Brigandine? I'm no armour expert by any means, but I thought it looked like plain old leather. Though the breastplate looks very supple. Does Brigandine not expose a lot of rivets?
I think it's worth noting that Oberyn was trying to draw a confession from The Mountain. Thus he tried to inflict as many wounds and as much agony as he could, making many cuts instead of more devastating thrusts that might kill or incapacitate someone outright. This is mention more specifically in the book, where The Mountain at the end is bleeding from many wounds before being taken down.
scholagladiatoria I'm pretty sure you'll enjoy it. Disclaimer: they do cross axes and stare into each others faces during one fight but at least they don't have a conversation.. Thanks for the reply!
scholagladiatoria Please review the final duel between Don Diego and Capitane in the "The Mark of Zorro" (1940 movie). According to legend, this fight is not choreographed, but mostly improvised by two leading actors( Tyrone Power and Rasil Rathbone) who are both expert fencers. It is a really intense and good swordfighting scene
I do not know if he helped on this choreography, but I do know that the Dutch martial artist Mishaël Abia Lopes Cardozo (specialized in traditional European martial styles, including many weapons) was offered a role (and probably more like him) to make the fights in Game of Thrones more authentic and supposedly even gave pointers to the directors to create better fights. They do try. The viewer does want a spectacle however.
Is there any chance we could see one of these reviews on some of the sword fights in Sharpe? Sharpe's handling of the 1796 Heavy Cavalry Sword is clumsy but he seems to improve as the show goes on, going from nervously defending to attacking quickly and violently with lunges and broad cuts. Also the first duel in the Duellists was a great saber duel I think and it would be wonderful if you did a review of the details on that fight because they used some interesting guards.
I think fencing an incoming spear downward serves a more fundamental purpose than potentially binding the spear or avoiding knocking it toward your face. Quite simply, by deflecting it downward, your parry is much quicker and more forceful since it's aided by gravity, while pushing it upward would mean the opposite: you'd be going against gravity trying to lift the spear. It's therefore also going to be far less exhausting relative to the opponent's effort to restore their spear weapon to an attacking position, which is of crucial importance in any fight. Furthermore, if you miss the parry or glance off the spear, a downward swing will encounter the ground and stop your errant momentum. An upward swing will throw your body for a spin and leave your recovery exposed for a significantly longer time.
A couple things to keep in mind. Oberyn was exiled for a while and made a living for a time in the fighting pits of Mireen*. He was a gladiator, and was paid as much for his showmanship as he was for winning fights. I assumed this was the reason for the twirling, taunting, and useless blows to the armored parts of the Mountain. He also knew from the beginning that he could win the fight, and it wasn't until he was knocked down at one point that he started taking the fight seriously, and started to land blows where they count. He obviously dominated that fight and would have been the victor, but... He got sloppy. I felt that knowing his background, and also his personality, kind of explains the reason he was so theatrical, other than it just being for cinematic value.
hi, just thought id add a point that wasn't picked up on in the show but was in the books that, Oberyn was using poison on the blade of his weapon and wanted the Mountain to have a slow painful death
Oberyn didn't hamstring Clegane with spikes at the base of the spear. This closeup (static1.squarespace.com/static/52fc05c9e4b08fc45bd99090/538f5b41e4b0f04cb499624c/538f8628e4b032c1b8cc9a33/1401914971676/s4-ep8-ephome-gallery7-1000x563.jpg?format=1500w) clearly shows the blade of the partizan is perfectly smooth. I think he just did a draw cut.
Im glad you are focusing on the positives. Too many people, especially in historical fields, like to nitpick on the negatives to show how much they know.
I also think Gregor's swings were too slow to be realistic. You can say: "but he was using a huge longsword only with one hand". Then if he is so damn slow with it, why isn't he using it with two hands?
Yeah, I'd definitely say either the sword was too heavy to be realistic or he was untrained in using it (which was very un-Clegane like). And the fact that he was swinging it around most of the time with one hand made no sense, with two hands I'd say his speed would be way too much for the Viper to counter. Which probably why he was made to use it one handed, as otherwise it would be too hard to choreograph a believable fight scene with so much flashy movements. In the book the Mountain used a huge shield together with his massively unreal sword. As a matter of fact the Viper too has a small shield, which played a crucial part in the fight.
Very good point about a sword not cutting through a pole weapon. Anyone with any experience of holding a real sword and a real pole weapon knows how solid the Ash shaft of a pole weapon is. The only historical record of pole shafts being cut was by the English Bill men vs the Scottish pike at Flodden 1513. Considering a Bill Hook is specifically designed to cut poles in agriculture this is not surprising, the bill blade is heavy and cleaver like. A sword, even a very large one isn't going to cut through a pole shaft unless it's braced against something.
TH-cam has blocked the video in the link provided. In fact, they have terminated the account, due to "multiple REPORTS of 3rd-party copyright violations" or some such bollocks. Note they say "reports of", not necessarily actual violations. TH-cam will ban people based on reports, they don't even bother to investigate, it seems.
For Oberyns hamstringing move I think it was actually a bit lower down than that. Possibly the Achillies tendon that got severed. I do agree about GOT's fights getting better though. I noticed that whilst watching the fight at the end of season two between Jon Snow and Qohrin. Bastard Sword vs Falchion I think. That was the first time I thought "They really nailed that!"
How about reviewing the fight scenes of the following episode, from the battle of castle black? I especially liked Jon's sword work, but would love to see your thoughts on all the battles from that episode.
The weaponmaster Aliser Thorne vs Tormen Giantsbane (scuse my spelling) was a highlight, I thought. I agree the Jon Snow actor Kit Harrington seems very good from what I can tell.
Will you please do a review of the Sandor Clegane vs. Beric Dondarrion duel in the cave? Also Brienne vs. The Hound (Sandor Clegane). Love your input on those. Thank you!
What about the straight through the chest finishing stab? I mean, they say that the Mountain's armor was so heavy that only he could move in it. How could Oberyn thrust through the middle of a chest plate like that, especially one that was particularly heavy?
scholagladiatoria Thank you for this video, I'm learning so much from this. Could you repeat the book you mentioned at 7:27 I believe I heard "the fencing manual: medieval m-something Europe'? I also would love to get more book suggestions from you, do you know any books on military officer ranking and authority systems, military terminology from these time periods?
10 ปีที่แล้ว +1
Nice review. Watch the fight again and now I understand it a bit better now, thanks! I have a question about the trials by combat: were they always to death? The chapter where this fight is shown ends without show clearly who won, both fighters were down. What would historically had happen in a real trial by combat if there was a draw or neither of the fighters could continue?
Well, historical judicial duels can be fought to any number of conclusions that both parties agreed on before hand: to first blood, to first strike, to any number of strikes, to death, until someone yields, etc. But in Game of Thrones, trials by combat appears to be always to the death.
I do believe you got their armor reversed, the Mountain was in something similar to brigantine, minus the cloth or leather backing and held together by what appeared to be a hooks or rings, something akin to Persian "plated mail" only less mail, then backed by normal mail underneath if his sleeves are any indication. While Oberyn appeared to have what I believe was supposed to be cuir bouilli, though given the ripples along the mid section it was likely really just tanned leather made to appear firmer, over what I can only assume was supposed to be mail, but was in reality just very shiny cloth made to appear as such. So neither is particularly lightly armored or using proper plate, unless you consider the mountain's helmet, gorget, and pauldrons enough plate to be worth mentioning. Either way at least the Mountain's armor was either real metal or at least far more convincing materials, unlike Oberyn's, which given his acrobatics probably had to be lighter so as to not wear him out take after take.
the mountain is noted for wearing ridiculously heavy armour, the actor found it extremely heavy and he is currently 2nd world strongest man. The mountain is a literal freak his armour is supposed to be multiple layers, you cant see it to well in the fight but he is in fact wearing full plate underneath that other stuff to
Gregor's armour looked like a coat of plates, which seems to be a popular choice in Westeros. That would mean that the leather jerkin would have plates of steel attached underneath, which in turn would mean it'd behave like a normal segment chestplate. Besides, as GeneralAdvance said, Gregor is said to have been wearing multiple layers of armour.
scholagladiatoria I think that the fact he cut so much makes it more realistic since If I'd use this kind of a weapon I would use the advantage of the length and just try to exploit any available time to hit him even if it's just trying to cut it and even if it's not as powerful or effective as other kinds of attacks as long as I can recover faster and not lose my advantage, which I might lose if my weapon is "stuck" in his armor or if he has an opportunity to grip it or just to get close to me befor I move away. It is something I see in sparring (though It isn't very common to use those kinds of weapon against each other)
[4:40] Cats don't "taunt" or play with mice. Felines, because of the shape of their skulls, can't see what it is they're biting. Mice have claws and teeth. If the cat were to sink its nose into its prey before wearing the mouse down to utter exhaustion, it would get whatever lacerations the mouse was still capable of throwing back at it. (Which would make dinner a less pleasant experience.) It would also be tiresome for the cat to find a still-resisting mouse's throat to finish it off.
Great Video, I totally agree that oberyn uses sort of "showy" moves. I think allot of this is for the tv audience as in the book, he brings visorless helm and a polished bronze shield. he uses thrusts exclusively, and whenever they hit armour they slide right off. The mountain also has a shield which absorbs many of his strikes. I have noticed they drop the helmets allot in game of thrones, and other shows or movies, I think to show the actors face more.
The only part I disagree with is about being able to quickly disengage with a partisan. Having met the Bjornson if you put a sword that large (they've said in DVD featuretes that the sword was over 6 feet long) in his hand he'd have a massively wide range to deal with and with two hands on the spear/partisan he'd likely be able to seriously hurt you, even from the edge of most people's range
Hello Matt, your videos have revolutionized my views on swords (Thx for your video uploads). One obvious thing I noticed about the fight is that the Mountain uses his greatsword with his left hand forward. Now, I've watched other "greatsword videos" where big, seemingly strong guys, who are righthanded, have trouble swinging these big swords so they use their left hand forward (not much experience?). Also, it was said in the books the Mountain was so big he used a six foot greatsword like a four footer as he was eight feet tall. One good way, I've found. to understand how the he fought in the scene is to look at it through a mirror or using some computer program to "mirror reverse" the image so that the Mountain is holding the greatsword with his right hand forward. Only reason I assume the actor who played the Mountain is righthanded is at one point in the duel, it seemed like he swung the sword with his right hand overlapping the left, slightly forward of it. Maybe he's getting old and his right wrist has been overworked through the years of swinging giant swords around? (You should do a review on some videogames like SoulCalibur and perhaps the fight in Hellboy 2 between Prince Nuada and the King's Butcher Guards! More media sword fight reviews!) Game of Thrones Season 4: Episode #8 - Learning the Moves (HBO) Interesting info
I think in the novel Oberyn fought in the spear and shield style, but to make his character more exotic and flashy, the had him do wushu spear fighting for the show.
I have just given up on finding historical accuracy in GOT, in ruins it for me if I spend too much time dwelling on what they do wrong... That being said after watching this video I see this fight is not as bad as I would assume... despite how annoying the Mountain is constantly dragging the point of his sword against the stone floor, or swinging it like it weighs 20 pounds.
its not explained in the series but the mountains armour is the heaviest in the world, enough to crush any other man who wore it, he also despite being fast normally is suffering from extreme constant migraines and is addicted to 'milk of the poppy' ie heroin. other than that though i agree he should have still been a fair bit faster but the actor said he struggled with that suit or armour on and he is 2nd worlds strongest man
I must say that the show creators have made some effort toward "historical accuracy" (weird saying that for something that never happened but yeah). I've noticed a few points in the books where George RR Martin actually got things "wrong" (relative to our context) but were "right" in the show. Many other mistakes can be forgiven for budget reasons/entertainment
It was a while ago that I read it but does he not also say (regarding the light armour) something along the lines that if he get's hit by the mountain he's probably done anyway? I really enjoyed the review btw.
Yeah I mean I fount you will respond but on your point about "fancy" moves. It is pretty practical to do such moves and you could also say that the Brazilians and their Capoiera is effective at fooling.
I'd love to see you analyze the fights in Secret of Nym, Last of the Mohicans (climax), 13th Warrior (mid point duel and Queen/King fights), and Last Samurai (any fights.) Not saying these are accurate movies, just thought they'd be interesting to hear you break them down.
Great review, I don't suppose you would want to do a review on the fight from season 1 between Bronn and Sir Vardis. I really want to know if the tactic Bronn uses of dodging around his opponent (not unlike Oberen did) is actually as effective as it seems.
What about when Oberyn charged at the Mountain at the end of the fight stabbing him in the armored chest? The Mountain still has his sword, and you would think he'd defend himself. He didn't even swing the sword or thrust it forward toward the charging Oberyn. All he does was he raised the sword back as he was struck & fell.
In the commentary for this episode the actor playing Oberyn says that he trained in wushu for the fight, presumably to give the feeling of the Dornish being "different" from the rest of westeros and somewhat exotic. He is basically using the Partisan in the same manner as a Chinese Qiang.
TadRaunch Yeah, we know he lived in Braavos for a time and mentioned seeing the unsullied in action, too.
***** Never said it was. I said he trained in wushu in order to do the choreography for this fight scene.
*****
Well actually, Wu means martial, and Shu, means art, and Wu Shu was originally referred to what military people practiced.
However....in the modern era, it does tend to refer to competition fighting.
The actor who played Darth Maul was trained in Wu Shu too. :D
MariusThePaladin Actually, he started off as a fight choreographer, but the sequences he came up with were too cool not to use, but too hard for the actor to pull off, that they eventually just recast him as Maul, AFAIK
The ending of that fight sure was mind-blowing.
I see what you did there
ha!
Ba-dum "tshhh"
You mean it was quite eye opening?
That was bad and you should feel bad.
scholagladiatoria You should read the way the scene is written in the books. Oberyn's fighting style is much closer to what you describe, he uses the point of the spear to thrust, counter Gregor's reach and feint, specifically targeting the armpit and other gaps in his armour.
" The Red Viper landed a quick thrust on the Mountain's belly to no effect. Gregor cut at him and missed. The longspear lanced in above his sword. Like a serpent's tongue it flickered in and out, feinting low and landing high, jabbing at groin, shield, eyes."
""You raped her." Prince Oberyn parried a savage cut with his spearhead. "You murdered her." He sent the spearpoint at Clegane's eyes, so fast the huge man flinched back. "You killed her children." The spear flickered sideways and down scraping against the Mountain's breastplate."
"Prince Oberyn tilted is dented metal shield. A shaft of sunlight blazed blindingly of polished gold and copper, into the narrow slit of his foe's helm. Clegane lifted his own shield against the glare. Prince Oberyn's spear flashed like lightning and found the gap in the heavy plate, the joints under the arm. The point punched through mail and boiled leather... The spearhead went through the back of the knee this time, through the layers of chain and leather between the plates on thigh and calf."
Presumably the show changed it up because Wushu is more visually unique and interesting.
+Miles Curtis Watson Sounds brutal, and maybe also harder to film.
+Miles Curtis Watson
What you described sounds cooler than the generic jumping around stuff.
+Miles Curtis Watson -Cheaper to shoot and more believable on-screen. It takes carefully prepared shots to show Oberyn punch through armor and find gaps--it would have taken much more shooting time, blood squibs, effects to show the spear punching through...all to the effect of showing just how very brutally damaged and incapacitated The Mountain would have been after all that punishment. This way we see all of Oberyn's skill, but we can imagine the Mountain fighting back longer and staying on his feet and......well, yeah, the other thing in both versions (if you could actually see onscreen the damage in the book...it'd come off much less believable).
+Miles Curtis Watson I was just annoyed they missed out on the copper shield bit. It was by far the coolest part of the scene.
+Bluemilk92
Agreed, the blinding sun reflected off off the polished shield was one of the parts i loved most as well. Oh and the part where Gregor cuts some spectators arm off and the crowd cant get away fast enough.
In the books Oberyn was going for the weak spots of Gregor's armour, different from what u see on show.
Quit referring to yourself in the third person.
You should have won. Your skill was FAR superior.
+Juan Ceberos
A man can refer to himself in the third person if a man desires to.
+Oberyn
Why did you have to gamble your life for a confession, you reckless idiot?!
Not only that, they also both had shields and helms, and it took place before sunrise, so when the sun DID rise, it made the fight a lot more interesting.
***** Shouldn't mock the Red Viper, Drogo...
So many people have asked me about this fight, and I haven't watched it yet. I wanted to read the books first, and I'm finished with them now but haven't started watching the series yet.
From the few clips I've seen it seemed to me that Oberyn is being too fancy, whirling around too much. But I guess you have a point, if he wants to provoke and humiliate his opponent that might be excusable.
Especially since the Viper wanted a confession from The Mountain. He wanted an angry confession. He got it.
this fight isn't even in the books, there's a time jump at the start of one of them so a lot of stuff in this series was stuff they didn't 'show' in the book.
Torc Handsomeson Yes it is.
Torc Handsomeson They vividly detail the fight between the Viper and the Mountain in the Storm of Swords book.
I used to think like that but now if I can I will watch the adaptation first. You'll enjoy the adaptation and then you read the books and think "Wow, even better." What happens if you do it the other way around? "That isn't right. That wasn't done well. Why did they even do it like that?"
That said: I did fly through the books after some cretins spoiled many important plot points for me. That is a very compelling reason to read these books as soon as you can.
The "hitting the armor" part can be kinda excuseable to me, since Oberyn wanted Gregor to confess.
"No no no, you can't die yet. You haven't confessed!" - Oberyn to Gregor
plus he fought in fighting pits don't think hes used to plate armour in the pits
One big point to not forget is that the weapon of Oberyn was poisoned. That might be a reason he likes to cut, so he gets the poison in….
On top his first goal is to get the confession not to just kill the mountain and of corse to show of and to make clear to Tywin that he is coming for him.
I actually was a bit disappointed by the mountain since he seem to not really fight but just smashes everything by brute force….
Christian Kunert Smashing through brute force is Gregor Clegane's fighting style, and it obviously works pretty damn well. The Mountain is wounded constantly (he actually had a few unhealed wounds during the trial in the book), but he hardly feels it because he's heavily addicted to milk of the poppy.
50ftFrankenstein He also has problems with migraines because of his size.
Daryl Black That's implied to be what got him "quaffing milk of the poppy as lesser men quaff ale" in the first place, yes.
Agreed..., and IMO, it's another reason why Oberon was moving and spinning, waiting for that poison to set in and start disorienting him mentally as much as debilitating him physically, at which point he could punish him with the partizan. One of the best fight scenes in the series.
Oberyn wasn't trying to be "fancy." He stretches the fight out because he wants the Mountain to confess to raping his sister and then murdering her and her children. Oberyn actually tells the Mountain at the beginning of the fight to confess now so that he can make it quick. Oberyn could have just killed the Mountain right out of the gate if he wanted to, but that would have ruined his entire reason for coming to Kings Landing (he didn't really give a shit about a wedding).
There's also the fact that there are very few openings to the Mountains armor. Yes Oberyn is a better fighter, but if he goes right in for the kill the Mountain is going to be expecting it and will be able to counter.
Slowing him down and then going for the weak spots is a smarter move.
OriginalPai He was trying to be fancy. The two aren't exactly mutually exclusive. He wanted to hear a confession from Gregor and was toying with him for most of the fight but that doesn't mean that he wasn't also showing off. He started showing off before the fight even started.
OriginalPai He was trying to be fancy as well though. He kept looking at the crowd and his wife and smiling at them through the fight. That's basically what made him lose. He was looking at the crowd after one of his fancy tricks and the Mountain took advantage of the moment to pin him down on his back and crush his head. I suspect that's why Elliana wants revenge so badly. She secretly blames herself because he was trying to impress her.
+annaknowsu I think OriginalPai's implication was that it wasn't meant to be just fancy, with no real meaning behind it, like most fight scenes are in Hollywood. Oberyn had clear and valid reasoning behind the way he was fighting. He knew doing so would put himself at risk, but he felt it was a necessary risk. Most of the time when you see fighting like that, it's completely unnecessary.
+James Glass I love people that can read stuff with the correct context.
Spoiler warning:
Plot explains most of these caveats. The rest is the fantasy factor, since the mountain was supposed to be freakishly big and strong, even bigger (a foot taller) and stronger than the actor. Any human that size would have to wear himself down just from the movement and the weight of the armor and all the swinging. In five minutes he would have to be exhausted, judging from his energy consuming, gung-ho style fighting. Strength and stamina have trade offs after all. Heavy weight MMA fights last minutes and Clegane was supposed to be about twice as heavy as those guys without armor. Not to mention the heat, dehydration and bleeding from many cuts. Even adrenaline only goes so far.
The many cuts were probably meant as a way to poison The Mountain as well as other things mentioned. For a poison (plot device) to work it doesn't have to penetrate deeply and more contact with the flesh is more important than deeper impact (in the context of this fight, not generally). That would also explain the flashy movements, he wanted to to cut as many times as possible. The poison was supposed to cause agonizing pain and slow death and the taunting was supposed to illicit a confession, which did work, even though it got him killed. There was nothing foolish or naive about it, he willingly took that risk. He knew what he was doing. The objective for Oberyn was not to kill, had that been the case he would have done so without the flashy movements. There were openings for thrusts and he would just have to wait for the injuries and fatigue to wear the opponent down. Then he could have drove the spear in the exposed neck and it would be over. But he needed the confession and willingly risked his life to obtain it.
+Simon Željko I thought armour wasn't even that heavy.
daddyleon As I said, that's the fantasy factor. Gregor Clegane (AKA The Mountain) had a thick armor (indestructible even with a mace or warhammer) and wielded a two handed greatsword in one hand. That part is probably unrealistic and definitely not historically accurate.
+Simon Željko Hahaha yes, GoT isn't really historically accurate, indeed. Some parts are also slightly unrealistic xD
I thought you were talking about 'normal' armour, and I've heard (and seem some demonstrations) that it's not at all hella restricting you movement, speed and endurance. Though... I'm certainly no expert.
+daddyleon Though, (I'm no expert) would the Mountain's armour and height and length of sword be of no advantage? If I was in his position I imagine that I would fairly easily corner him with my huge breadth of body mass and range of sword thrusts and be pretty much invulnerable to to anything the Viper did in the few seconds that the fight would last.
dragons123ism Mountain's sword was freakishly long (6 feet!), but a spear is longer. Therefore no reach advantage, no speed advantage and very limited stamina. In a hallway (any limited space) the Mountain would have the advantage, in the arena not so much. If the Viper has no room to move away (and counterattack), you would be correct.
Duel is different than a battle, where you are bound to fight in close quarters eventually (in the context of medieval combat). The sheer strength and near invulnerability of the Mountain would be invaluable. He's a medieval battle tank both on horse and on the ground. A dual is one man against one man, you can focus on one opponent, you have room to move and you can't exploit the terrain to your advantage.
Pedro Pascal did all of his own fighting. If Oberyn was supposed to be one of the best fighters in Westeros, Pascal wanted to make sure he was.
I think that what a lot of people might be forgetting is that other less tangible things make a huge difference in a fight too.
Things like confidence in your own ability, over- or underestimating an opponent and just pure energy and aggression.
So I think flourishing your weapon, showing off a bit, isn't dumb at all. Maybe you can intimidate your opponent a bit, surprise him, make him slightly insecure. As long as you're not taking dumb risks I don't see a reason not to.
also remember the crowd,, his sister watching,, all eyes on him,, oberyn is a show off at heart,, likes the big spectacle,, likes to impress,,this is a big event,, the judging of royalty,, when the crowd is behind you,, you feel a crazy rush of adrenaline,, just like gladiators and football players,,
Only extras wear helmets in Game of Thrones. In fact, named characters don't even wear hats or hoods, no matter how bad the weather is.
One of my favorite fights in Thrones is the Hound in the tavern -- down and dirty like a real fight as opposed to flashy. Any thoughts on that? Great posts, thank you.
I agree, it's one of my favourites.
it broke my heart as half of fights should
Oberyn wasn't trying to kill the mountain. He was trying to hurt him enough to make him confess.
I'm not very familiar with the story, but from what I've seen it the Mountain seems a bit socio/psycho-pathic so I wonder why he wouldn't have just confessed at the start unless he was too focused on just killing Oberyn... or refusing to give him what he wanted.
@@AccidentalNinja the only thing the mountain was scared of was Tywin Lannister. He wouldn't confess unless he was angry enough to no longer care, because confessing would implicate Tywin.
Your review made alot of sense to me and it was in a refreshing tone aswell, meaning you don't have this arrogant way about you in that one mocks fights made for entertainment, who can only see the negative. This review seemed balanced and fair.
I saw a bunch of curses and didn't read your anger-post. I love it though! That's showbiz!
The actor was trained in Wushu for this fight hence the spear twirling. His blade is also tipped with poison, and as you know the mountain was wearing armor don't know if thrust would really work at all, and yeah he was WAY better than the mountain and was indeed "toying" with him, he was waiting for a confession.
***** "Wu shu" is literally "martial arts" in Chinese. What the term stands for in modern time is completely irrelevant. Also, it doesn't change the fact that the actor trained in Wushu for the choreography. Might as well have trained in Tai chi, if it helped in ACTING OUT a fight. It doesn't matter if it's practically dancing.
***** It wasn't used to choreograph an actual fight, so to say. It was used mostly for the flashy, show-offy bits of twirling and flamboyance. You're tunnelvisioning a bit - example: just because you learn Latin in school doesn't mean you can't speak Swedish with a Swede, and use a Latin phrase to sound smart in that same conversation, nos concordant? ;)
***** That is wrong. There are tons of wushu styles, as the word naturally encompasses all the Chinese martial arts - all from striking to grappling. I've practiced wushu under grand master Louis Linn and there was nothing resembling dance whatsoever in what I was taught. It was full contact striking with all eight points, and grappling in the same general philosophy as BJJ, for example. In general a pretty modern combat style and definitely all about defeating an opponent.
***** What exactly are Kung Fu films all about then?
Good lord! Wu Shu is what practically all Hollywood martial arts fights are based on. It looks flamboyant and because it's a standardized system you can have two people choreograph a wonderful Wu Shu display.
I practiced Wu Shu myself, 12 Golden Styles. It's exactly because it looks like dance and flows so well that it is used in fight scenes extensively.
Some movies use Krav Maga, but I see no Israeli's complaining that their very real and useful martial art is being compromised in some way because it's in a Hollywood movie.
Wu Shu looks awesome when practiced well, that's all there is to it!
Unfortunately for Oberyn, Gregor is one hell of a huge, vicious mouse.
+FallaciousScotsman *dog
+daddyleon *Mountain
Thomas Scally That also, but he's from House Clegane... they're 'dogs', not mice. But I get your angle ;)
I thought Sandor was the dog. I suppose we shall see. Pretty sure "the Hound" is the "dog" of the two characters.
When I was a kid, we were playing soccer (football), and a boy from the other team launched the ball back in by holding it over his head and doing a handspring bouncing on the ball and releasing as he made the full rotation. I was intimidated by his superior skills, so we see how useful flourishes can be. People tend to want to impress others, so usefulness may not be the primary factor.
I like the fact you actually took the time to review this, and it really speaks for HBO that they took the effort to make it as realistic as possible.
thanks
I hope you keep doing these movie fight scene reviews. It's refreshing to have the perspective of someone that has trained with classical weaponry give insight while also explaining how something that might not be entirely correct could still fit within the context of the story.
Really enjoying these videos. Please do more in the future.
A very fair and interesting video. As someone with very little knowledge about actual historical combat, having someone gauging the quality of a theatrical combat is neat. Not only does it help learn, it also helps me notice how much dedication is put into the show itself.
As a good Sword Fighter-If you had to fight someone like Clegane in a real duel-How intimidated would you feel by his extreme Size and Strength?
You've touched on the Relative unimportance of Strength in Swordplay, but this would be a very extreme case. Such a giant could wear thicker armor, carry a longer and heavier sword, etc.
.....RVM45
I am no fighter, but I am pretty sure his reputation is a lot more intimidating than his size.
The Mountain had ARMOR and a BIG F*CKING SWORD
Interview from actor does confirm Wushu was part of the design on Oberyns fighting style.
"the production of Game of Thrones actually put me in some pre-training before I went to Europe to start shooting. I was put intro some classes with a master of Wushu, an acrobatic martial art, and they put me with a master, his name is Master Hu, and he has a studio in Los Angeles where he sort of basically showed me the basics and taught me how to fight with a spear and twist my body around and move in ways I never thought possible. And this was a guy who actually did Shaolin movies with Jet Li very early in Jet Li's career, and fought alongside him as his sidekick, so he was the real deal. Then once I got to Europe and started shooting, there were really intensive fight rehearsals with me and the stunt team that was headed by C.C. Smiff, and other actors, and we did a lot of fight choreography and rehearsals. The Oberyn style of fighting is inspired by Wushu."
oberyn was my new favourite character and what do they do? crush his head of coarse, he also seems to have been the only one who prefers spears (or spear like) which i really like
The bullshit to the fight was the Mountain getting up after being stabbed in the chest cavity, injured enough that there's blood in his mouth, and then having the strength to grapple and crush Oberyn's head. I mean, I don't care how tough the Mountain is. People don't get up after having 4-6 inches of steel stabbed into their torso with the strength to kill a man bare-handed, adrenaline or not.
That and Mountain was swinging around a longsword as if it weighed a hundred pounds. If he was as strong as they said, it should have been quick and effortless.
Go have a look at another of Scholagladitoria's videos where he talks about how long it can take people to die from even a mortal wound.
BADALEX but would never have the strength to cursh bone. and even then talking clearly. btw those mortally woundedn then died of. but (spoiler allert)
the mountain just survived all of this and then thing with the poison. that he can survive even longer when half of his body is alreaady fuul of puss and melted. just plain stupid shit. i expected better from george rr martin.
the mountain is like that because in the book he frequently took some dose of milk of poppy daily to ease the pain of his gigantism. Combine that with his entire life of bruttish nature
I felt like Gregor moved a bit sluggishly in that fight.
the man is supposed to be like 9 ft tall, in the show he is more closer to 8ft though and the actor is 7ft tall
WhyUbrown
So?
***** Guys that big don't move that fast.
Kevin Oubre Why wouldn't they? It depends on how they're muscled and Gregor was rather light for his height, probably quite lean.
It is probably because he's wearing plate and the sword must be fairly heavy i imagine even if he is very strong. I think also this is the first time he has faced against that particular style of fighting style with a spear.
by the looks of it he's more used to sword fights and battlefields where he can make better use of his strength and size to beat/cut people down
got no experience with neither spears or swords so i cant really say with any degree of certainty. personally what martial experience i have is with full contact karate for about 2 years so nothing major.
I wish you could re do this video with the scene played in back like some of the others. Very interesting.
Pedro Pascal had trained in Wushu for like 2-3 months before even showing up on set for his first day of shooting. The weapons trainer said he was the most prepared actor he'd ever had the pleasure of working with and did most of his own "stunts". Basically Pedro Pascal is as amazing as Oberyn Martell.
The book was more realistic. There he kept distance and relyed on thrusting and the Mountain caved his skull in using a gauntlet. Even a 2.5m 200kg guy could not crush the head using his weight unless he jumps on it (so-called mustang kick, combines the strength of the kick with the body weight).
Take this as you will; apparently some people tested Hafthór Björnsson's grip strength, crunched some numbers and found out that it *was* theoretically possible for someone with his strength to crush a person's head like that. Dude is one of the strongest people in the world, after all.
Daniel O'Regan I have seen some calculation that speak against it. However he might be strong enough to punch his head in, just as many people would be able to cave a head in by stomping it.
Fair cop
What is unrealistic (at least as portrayed in the TV series) is that Oberyn, after being much quicker and more agile than The Mountain for the whole scene, somehow once he is tripped up, clumsily drops his weapon and is unable to roll away from or evade a mortally wounded Clagane. Clagane had the point of a spear buried 20cm into his chest and while he is bleeding out he is able to subdue and kill an uninjured Oberyn?
In the books there were feint aiming for weak points in the armour They both had shields And oberyn wore mail
And a helmet
I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on the Westley vs. Inigo Montoya fight from the Princess Bride. It's obviously over the top (it was the 80s), but I think it's well done for the most part.
Oberyn might fight in an authentic manner. The mountain however fights really really awfully bad in this fight.
He doesnt seem to know how to use a broadsword and runs towards Oberyn with open cover.
Vogel Strauss He's not using a broadsword. He's using a two-handed sword, one-handed ;-)
True;) But that doesnt change the fact that he uses the sword like a hammer and doesnt show any sign of sword mastery.
I was very dissapointed by the fight the mountain put up.
The ending however was very well done.
+Vogel Strauss (Nordkindchen) If you're a Mountain you don't need skill. The Mountain could put enough pure force behind his sword to kill a knight in plate.
Pfff....what did Jon Snow say again? "My father told me tall men just die as quickly as small men if you stick em in the heart". If you cant hold your cover it doesnt matter how tall or strong you are.
And the mountain lacked the very basics of combat skill in that scene.
+Vogel Strauss (Nordkindchen) As other's have said the Mountain doesn't need alot of skill with his weapon, he strikes hard and breaks through guards, and he wears armor so heavy that the average person needs to be extremely precise to hit him. He is essentially a barbarian holding a club. That's how he fights it isn't good but it worked for him against everyone except for the highly skilled. (remember this guy is used to simply cleaving through a bunch of peasants with no training, and no idea on how to defend against a power house like the Mountain.) I think, that besides Oberyn most of the other named fighters could beat him. Such as Eddard, Jaime( Before he lost his hand) Bron, and others could beat him it would be a real tough fight because he just wears such hard armor to get around. But they would be able to do it.
Like you said in another video, more realistic spear stabbing is just not very good on the screen sadly
It was well established that Oberyn was one of the most skilled fighters in the world. He knew that he was going to win and he made no bones about it. He was clearly taunting Gregor through his comments and antagonistic behavior. There was no chance for Gregor to win except for the way it happened. It was a great fight to watch all around if you understood all of this as you watched it. It was clear that even before the fight started that Gregor was militarily going to lose. He just made a very poor judgement call on how to treat Gregor after he had defeated him in combat. If he had left Gregor to lay there in defeat he would have won the day.
One thing that bothers me about Game of Thrones is that nobody uses shields! I thought sword and shield went together like peanut and jam, but ain't nobody carrying a shield in Game of Thrones. I could be terribly wrong, of course, but wouldn't city guard/soldiers be outfitted with shields? I understand if Wildlings don't use em, but why don't the Night's Watch? They're basically a military organization with standardized equipment across the board. Or pretty much any Knight for that matter? I suppose they might be bothersome to travel with, but you're wearing a full suit of bloody armour for goodness sake, where's your shield?
When plate armour reached the point of covering pretty much the whole of body, shields generally went out of use, and were replaced by a greater focus of polearms. However, it's interesting to note that in the books Gregor did actually use a shield with his two hander.
Ser Rodrik and most Stark soldiers use shields, as well as Ser Vardis of the Vale and the Unsullied. Still, I totally agree. Shields are way underutilized in the show. Especially when considering all the heraldry involved in the series, you'd think there would be shields all over the place with house sigils and such on display.
In the books they play a much larger role, especially, as mentioned by thinman25, with the strong armorial themes.
I think part of the reason why shields are so rare among the knightly classes of Westeros is that they all wear some manor of heavy armor and therefore don't need them. Notice that the people who do use shields tend to be clad in mostly leather armor.
IanTheRed In the show. In the books, it is quite the opposite.
You might want to do a video about the weapons and especially tactics of the Dothraki. Personally, I think light cavalry that is addicted to hair-on-fire charges are suicidal but the characters in the books and show are quite impressed by them.
You seem quite knowledgable about fighting, do you think Wushu could work in terms of practicality? I mean, it's supposed to be divided in two 'aspects'. A more theatrical side, with a lot of acrobatic stunts and the sort, and a fighting side featuring a variety of fighting techniques and grapples and the like. They have respective names but I can't recall them right now. Anyway, is the latter good?
Lady Stoneheart I think that the WuShu I have seen is basically a flashy display version of the original practical martial art we can see in Chinese treatises. Chinese martial arts have been subjected to many different motivations and influences in the last couple of centuries and I think it's great that some people are starting to look back at the old Chinese combat treatises to reconstruct what traditional Chinese fighting arts actually looked like.
scholagladiatoria I believe so as well, that's why I want to learn wushu anyway. I was just wondering if, at least using the wushu that is being taught today, one could go toe to toe against a HEMA practitioner
Lady Stoneheart Yes absolutely as long as you look at the proper martial techniques instead of the flowery forms. Having said that, some of the flowery moves can be used to confuse an opponent, thus disguising some attacks before the opponent knows it is coming (the ribbon on the pommel of a chinese broadsword - the dao - is often used to disguise the location of your blade's attacks - best used against less experienced opponents, but can still work).
This is more of a 'trick' though. I prefer not to use the ribbon because it can tangle itself around your own wrist to the untrained or against an industrious opponent who might use it against you.
The fact is that most people don't really understand martial wushu because of PC opinions formed from watching too many Jet Li style movies (remember he uses wires for style), so most people think it is no good for defense. Most of these people haven't even trained in wushu or have only focused on the competition forms rather than the more effective and lethal techniques. This is why, I suspect, that a lot of people do not take it seriously, because when training in a crippling or killing technique we all hold back during training so as not to kill each other!!!
Remember that a lethal art will always look uneffective to people that try to knock people out and not kill. But that's the nature of a lethal martial art - we train in it but don't use it unless in the most extreme circumstance, and even then depending on a countries laws if what you do is deemed 'too much force' you're looking at a jail term.
Lady Stoneheart I was always taught "It not necessarily your technique that wins, but it is how well trained the warrior is." - A master samurai would easily beat someone who was a novice at gladius and shield, whereas a master of gladius and shield will easily beat a novice with a katana.
Its an age old argument. Technique is of course necessary, but generally, the better trained, the more likely to win I think (although their are some really talented people out their that are just naturals, but this is a rarity - I've seen a guy with only ballet and backyard bokken training trounce an experienced fencer at his own art in the first prctice bout he ever had - fencing guy really did not like it I tell you and got the whole club to gang up on the guy that beat him because he was so humiliated. That really put me off the fencing world - there are too many people there that take a defeat way too seriously when they should be treating it as a learning experience).
The fact is, the backyard bokken guy was a natural - he went on to win the state championship. Even after that, the guy he defeat badmouthed him and got others to gang up on him. Needless to say, the natural left for another style of sword art that demands respect over the glaring need to always win and thus not learn a bloody thing.
RexiousX Wow..thanks for taking the time to write all this stuff, lol. You sound like you've spent some good time learning the language of war! Truth is, I had already come to your conclusion, that it's more about practice than style, and I really am fond of wushu, but alas I didn't find a single wushu school in my area. This place is infested with pretenders who say they teach wushu but when I asked for details, they don't teach sanshou, they don't teach acrobatics because (god forbid) they're afraid of getting *hurt*, they don't even teach practical use of the weapons. Just some sanda techniques and..mostly running around, actually. And I tried 3 different schools, dammit!
..did I just rant on you? I'm terribly sorry
I think there is also another point in hitting the armour. Most of the time, Oberyn hit it with no force. In a battle you want to move the weapon of the opponent to a point in which he cannot protect his uncovered parts of the body. So, definitely, part of a battle is made by HITTING THE OPPONENT WEAPON. The uncovered parts are usually small, especially for the mountain that has a full armour. If you try ONLY to hit him in those spots, you end up being predictable. It is the reason for which you have to take into account to hit and move the weapon ALSO in useless place, to be somehow close to the opponent weapon AND to not make the opponent easy to forecast where your weapon is, when he wants to parry/move/disarm/break your weapon.
The rapid movement of the spear is designed to achieve two goals, the first is to enable cutting blows with the spear head moving at a substantially higher speed than a swing would normally be able to achieve, and the second is to provide a limited passive defence, where the spear shaft has a reasonable likelihood of at least interfering with a strike against the spear wielder... it wasn't just to show off.
Rick Parks Yes... you also see it later in the fight as well, both as a guard and to deliver strikes... having used the same technique myself I can say that its reasonably effective.
Of course, I'm sure that you'd like to tell me now what distance you usually consider dropping into whatever guard you're using, but about 10ft when using longer weapons seems appropriate to me.
in defence of the song of the ice and fire series i have to say that as well as they made the hollywood choreography of this fight, in the book oberyn simply skips around stabbing the mountain as you should do with a typical medieval spear ^^
They go away too much between attacks instead of trying to kill each other.
The Mountain didn't stomp Oberyn when he was on the ground. He just brushed his sword and let him stand up a couple times.
What are historical accounts of weapons coated with poison? Oberyn's partisan was soaked in the venom - so my question is, would such thing be practical because a poisonous blade is a risk for a user as well, right?
It's really quite difficult to cut yourself accidentally with a spear if you have any idea what your doing
I wrote a paper one time on the use of poisoned weapons, and there's a ton of history there. Mostly for hunting, but a lot in warfare too. Any weapon can be dangerous to the user, but if you feel the risk is worth the reward, then you take the chance. It's a good equalizer. especially if you're using a bow or atlatl and dart.
Well summarized 'Blunt' weapons and their usage on the field.Thank you very much for uploading.
The strategy you recommend for the "Partisan" is exactly what Oberyn employed in the novel! Don't know why they changed it up for the show.
This movie fight review series is great! I'd just like to recommend reviewing a fight from The Lord of the Rings. Personally, I'd like a review of the fighting done by Aragorn and/ or Boromir against the Uruk-Hai in the last fight scene of the Fellowship of the Ring. A review of fights against multiple opponents could be an interesting change of pace from the duels we've had so far. Just food for thought
Speaking of helmets, that small little element makes the book fight scene so much better. As cool as the face break was, punching through a helmet into the cranial cavity is just pure bad ass.
Something I hate about Game of Throne fight choreography; No one uses their spare hand, they just use their big ass swords with one hand and have their free hand hanging around... doing nothing. Grab a shield, hold your sword with two hands, do something!
Because of this and the typical Hollywood crap I think pretty much every fight in GoT sucks. Especially the Viper vs Mountain fight, it was supposed to be one of the most tactical and skilful fights in the series, but instead we got flashy Wushu. And the Mountain couldn't even hold his sword properly.
Nice review! Just wanted to add that Oberyn also poison his blades (watch as he prepares for the fight his squire rubs his blades with a yellowish cloth, coating them). This way even the smallest cut would cause the Mountain to get weaker. Hence the handle - Red Viper
Hey, Matt, the spear isnt a partizan at at alliv taken a look online, and honestly i dont see any spikes or lugs on his spear./.. its just a flamberge bladed spear with a kinda of tassel at the base like a chinese qiang and a decorative bronze snake around the base of the blade..
its honestly JUST a spear it doesnt have ANY of he lugs or wings or spikes of a partizan or bohemian ear spoon.
what it DOES have is a flamberge blade which would slightly increase the slicing and drawcutting potential of the thing.
As for Oberyn's twirling, I read in an interview with the actor (Pedro Pascal) that he received a bit of instruction in Wu-Shu Kung-Fu staff fighting as part of the fight choreography.
Yes please review The Hound vs Brienne because on its own, i thought it was very entertaining and brutal which i loved (besides the outcome), but taking into account real techniques it looked like someone like yourself would be cringing at the inaccuracies to actual sword fighting
scholagladiatoria I noticed that your recent 'Longsword bind in the movies vs how fast that fight should be over' video also applies nicely to the Hound vs Briiyan of Tarth.
@1:19
Why Brigandine? I'm no armour expert by any means, but I thought it looked like plain old leather. Though the breastplate looks very supple. Does Brigandine not expose a lot of rivets?
I like this guys video's, nice to see someone who knows their stuff and doesn't talk out of their ass or be overly critical
I think it's worth noting that Oberyn was trying to draw a confession from The Mountain. Thus he tried to inflict as many wounds and as much agony as he could, making many cuts instead of more devastating thrusts that might kill or incapacitate someone outright. This is mention more specifically in the book, where The Mountain at the end is bleeding from many wounds before being taken down.
Great review, one of my favourite fights in the series... I'd love to see your review of the same fight in the book...
That was great! Would like to see you review any of the fights in the Vikings TV series
I haven't started watching it yet, but I will soon.
scholagladiatoria I'm pretty sure you'll enjoy it. Disclaimer: they do cross axes and stare into each others faces during one fight but at least they don't have a conversation.. Thanks for the reply!
scholagladiatoria Please review the final duel between Don Diego and Capitane in the "The Mark of Zorro" (1940 movie). According to legend, this fight is not choreographed, but mostly improvised by two leading actors( Tyrone Power and Rasil Rathbone) who are both expert fencers. It is a really intense and good swordfighting scene
I do not know if he helped on this choreography, but I do know that the Dutch martial artist Mishaël Abia Lopes Cardozo (specialized in traditional European martial styles, including many weapons) was offered a role (and probably more like him) to make the fights in Game of Thrones more authentic and supposedly even gave pointers to the directors to create better fights. They do try. The viewer does want a spectacle however.
Cannot wait to hear analysis of the Dothraki attack on the Lannister-Tarley train (and that godawful shield wall).
Is there any chance we could see one of these reviews on some of the sword fights in Sharpe? Sharpe's handling of the 1796 Heavy Cavalry Sword is clumsy but he seems to improve as the show goes on, going from nervously defending to attacking quickly and violently with lunges and broad cuts. Also the first duel in the Duellists was a great saber duel I think and it would be wonderful if you did a review of the details on that fight because they used some interesting guards.
I think fencing an incoming spear downward serves a more fundamental purpose than potentially binding the spear or avoiding knocking it toward your face. Quite simply, by deflecting it downward, your parry is much quicker and more forceful since it's aided by gravity, while pushing it upward would mean the opposite: you'd be going against gravity trying to lift the spear. It's therefore also going to be far less exhausting relative to the opponent's effort to restore their spear weapon to an attacking position, which is of crucial importance in any fight. Furthermore, if you miss the parry or glance off the spear, a downward swing will encounter the ground and stop your errant momentum. An upward swing will throw your body for a spin and leave your recovery exposed for a significantly longer time.
I wish that there were more people who demonstrate treatises so we can see how the plays are supposed to look.
A couple things to keep in mind. Oberyn was exiled for a while and made a living for a time in the fighting pits of Mireen*. He was a gladiator, and was paid as much for his showmanship as he was for winning fights. I assumed this was the reason for the twirling, taunting, and useless blows to the armored parts of the Mountain. He also knew from the beginning that he could win the fight, and it wasn't until he was knocked down at one point that he started taking the fight seriously, and started to land blows where they count. He obviously dominated that fight and would have been the victor, but... He got sloppy. I felt that knowing his background, and also his personality, kind of explains the reason he was so theatrical, other than it just being for cinematic value.
hi, just thought id add a point that wasn't picked up on in the show but was in the books that, Oberyn was using poison on the blade of his weapon and wanted the Mountain to have a slow painful death
It was definitely picked up on in the show - Qyburn, Cersei and Pycelle discuss it in the 10th episode
Oberyn didn't hamstring Clegane with spikes at the base of the spear. This closeup (static1.squarespace.com/static/52fc05c9e4b08fc45bd99090/538f5b41e4b0f04cb499624c/538f8628e4b032c1b8cc9a33/1401914971676/s4-ep8-ephome-gallery7-1000x563.jpg?format=1500w)
clearly shows the blade of the partizan is perfectly smooth. I think he just did a draw cut.
Im glad you are focusing on the positives. Too many people, especially in historical fields, like to nitpick on the negatives to show how much they know.
I also think Gregor's swings were too slow to be realistic. You can say: "but he was using a huge longsword only with one hand". Then if he is so damn slow with it, why isn't he using it with two hands?
Yeah, I'd definitely say either the sword was too heavy to be realistic or he was untrained in using it (which was very un-Clegane like). And the fact that he was swinging it around most of the time with one hand made no sense, with two hands I'd say his speed would be way too much for the Viper to counter. Which probably why he was made to use it one handed, as otherwise it would be too hard to choreograph a believable fight scene with so much flashy movements.
In the book the Mountain used a huge shield together with his massively unreal sword. As a matter of fact the Viper too has a small shield, which played a crucial part in the fight.
Very good point about a sword not cutting through a pole weapon. Anyone with any experience of holding a real sword and a real pole weapon knows how solid the Ash shaft of a pole weapon is.
The only historical record of pole shafts being cut was by the English Bill men vs the Scottish pike at Flodden 1513. Considering a Bill Hook is specifically designed to cut poles in agriculture this is not surprising, the bill blade is heavy and cleaver like. A sword, even a very large one isn't going to cut through a pole shaft unless it's braced against something.
TH-cam has blocked the video in the link provided. In fact, they have terminated the account, due to "multiple REPORTS of 3rd-party copyright violations" or some such bollocks. Note they say "reports of", not necessarily actual violations. TH-cam will ban people based on reports, they don't even bother to investigate, it seems.
For Oberyns hamstringing move I think it was actually a bit lower down than that. Possibly the Achillies tendon that got severed.
I do agree about GOT's fights getting better though. I noticed that whilst watching the fight at the end of season two between Jon Snow and Qohrin. Bastard Sword vs Falchion I think. That was the first time I thought "They really nailed that!"
How about reviewing the fight scenes of the following episode, from the battle of castle black? I especially liked Jon's sword work, but would love to see your thoughts on all the battles from that episode.
The weaponmaster Aliser Thorne vs Tormen Giantsbane (scuse my spelling) was a highlight, I thought. I agree the Jon Snow actor Kit Harrington seems very good from what I can tell.
Will you please do a review of the Sandor Clegane vs. Beric Dondarrion duel in the cave? Also Brienne vs. The Hound (Sandor Clegane). Love your input on those. Thank you!
Brienne vs. the hound next! Best fight in the series so far. Thanks for your vids :)
would love to see you do some reviews of some of the fights from Highlander the series.
What about the straight through the chest finishing stab? I mean, they say that the Mountain's armor was so heavy that only he could move in it. How could Oberyn thrust through the middle of a chest plate like that, especially one that was particularly heavy?
scholagladiatoria Thank you for this video, I'm learning so much from this. Could you repeat the book you mentioned at 7:27 I believe I heard "the fencing manual: medieval m-something Europe'? I also would love to get more book suggestions from you, do you know any books on military officer ranking and authority systems, military terminology from these time periods?
Nice review. Watch the fight again and now I understand it a bit better now, thanks! I have a question about the trials by combat: were they always to death? The chapter where this fight is shown ends without show clearly who won, both fighters were down. What would historically had happen in a real trial by combat if there was a draw or neither of the fighters could continue?
Well, historical judicial duels can be fought to any number of conclusions that both parties agreed on before hand: to first blood, to first strike, to any number of strikes, to death, until someone yields, etc. But in Game of Thrones, trials by combat appears to be always to the death.
I do believe you got their armor reversed, the Mountain was in something similar to brigantine, minus the cloth or leather backing and held together by what appeared to be a hooks or rings, something akin to Persian "plated mail" only less mail, then backed by normal mail underneath if his sleeves are any indication. While Oberyn appeared to have what I believe was supposed to be cuir bouilli, though given the ripples along the mid section it was likely really just tanned leather made to appear firmer, over what I can only assume was supposed to be mail, but was in reality just very shiny cloth made to appear as such. So neither is particularly lightly armored or using proper plate, unless you consider the mountain's helmet, gorget, and pauldrons enough plate to be worth mentioning.
Either way at least the Mountain's armor was either real metal or at least far more convincing materials, unlike Oberyn's, which given his acrobatics probably had to be lighter so as to not wear him out take after take.
the mountain is noted for wearing ridiculously heavy armour, the actor found it extremely heavy and he is currently 2nd world strongest man. The mountain is a literal freak his armour is supposed to be multiple layers, you cant see it to well in the fight but he is in fact wearing full plate underneath that other stuff to
Gregor's armour looked like a coat of plates, which seems to be a popular choice in Westeros. That would mean that the leather jerkin would have plates of steel attached underneath, which in turn would mean it'd behave like a normal segment chestplate. Besides, as GeneralAdvance said, Gregor is said to have been wearing multiple layers of armour.
scholagladiatoria I think that the fact he cut so much makes it more realistic since If I'd use this kind of a weapon I would use the advantage of the length and just try to exploit any available time to hit him even if it's just trying to cut it and even if it's not as powerful or effective as other kinds of attacks as long as I can recover faster and not lose my advantage, which I might lose if my weapon is "stuck" in his armor or if he has an opportunity to grip it or just to get close to me befor I move away. It is something I see in sparring (though It isn't very common to use those kinds of weapon against each other)
Enjoyable! It would have been better by adding video scenes from that battle, I think, like your other videos
[4:40] Cats don't "taunt" or play with mice. Felines, because of the shape of their skulls, can't see what it is they're biting. Mice have claws and teeth. If the cat were to sink its nose into its prey before wearing the mouse down to utter exhaustion, it would get whatever lacerations the mouse was still capable of throwing back at it. (Which would make dinner a less pleasant experience.) It would also be tiresome for the cat to find a still-resisting mouse's throat to finish it off.
Surely a flourish like that also familiarises you with the weight of the weapon in contrast to your strength that day?
Great Video, I totally agree that oberyn uses sort of "showy" moves. I think allot of this is for the tv audience as in the book, he brings visorless helm and a polished bronze shield. he uses thrusts exclusively, and whenever they hit armour they slide right off. The mountain also has a shield which absorbs many of his strikes. I have noticed they drop the helmets allot in game of thrones, and other shows or movies, I think to show the actors face more.
Matt Easton you are a prim and proper, well spoken, intelligent, educated roadman.
i think a japanese short stafe has iron wire burned into the pole. are longer European polearoms built in the same way?
The only part I disagree with is about being able to quickly disengage with a partisan. Having met the Bjornson if you put a sword that large (they've said in DVD featuretes that the sword was over 6 feet long) in his hand he'd have a massively wide range to deal with and with two hands on the spear/partisan he'd likely be able to seriously hurt you, even from the edge of most people's range
Hello Matt, your videos have revolutionized my views on swords (Thx for your video uploads). One obvious thing I noticed about the fight is that the Mountain uses his greatsword with his left hand forward. Now, I've watched other "greatsword videos" where big, seemingly strong guys, who are righthanded, have trouble swinging these big swords so they use their left hand forward (not much experience?). Also, it was said in the books the Mountain was so big he used a six foot greatsword like a four footer as he was eight feet tall. One good way, I've found. to understand how the he fought in the scene is to look at it through a mirror or using some computer program to "mirror reverse" the image so that the Mountain is holding the greatsword with his right hand forward. Only reason I assume the actor who played the Mountain is righthanded is at one point in the duel, it seemed like he swung the sword with his right hand overlapping the left, slightly forward of it. Maybe he's getting old and his right wrist has been overworked through the years of swinging giant swords around? (You should do a review on some videogames like SoulCalibur and perhaps the fight in Hellboy 2 between Prince Nuada and the King's Butcher Guards! More media sword fight reviews!) Game of Thrones Season 4: Episode #8 - Learning the Moves (HBO) Interesting info
I think in the novel Oberyn fought in the spear and shield style, but to make his character more exotic and flashy, the had him do wushu spear fighting for the show.
Great vid, u should do one about the battle at Blackwater bay or brienne vs the hound.
I have just given up on finding historical accuracy in GOT, in ruins it for me if I spend too much time dwelling on what they do wrong... That being said after watching this video I see this fight is not as bad as I would assume... despite how annoying the Mountain is constantly dragging the point of his sword against the stone floor, or swinging it like it weighs 20 pounds.
its not explained in the series but the mountains armour is the heaviest in the world, enough to crush any other man who wore it, he also despite being fast normally is suffering from extreme constant migraines and is addicted to 'milk of the poppy' ie heroin. other than that though i agree he should have still been a fair bit faster but the actor said he struggled with that suit or armour on and he is 2nd worlds strongest man
I must say that the show creators have made some effort toward "historical accuracy" (weird saying that for something that never happened but yeah). I've noticed a few points in the books where George RR Martin actually got things "wrong" (relative to our context) but were "right" in the show. Many other mistakes can be forgiven for budget reasons/entertainment
GeneralAdvance
For the longest time I thought they were saying milk of the puppy. Now it makes much more sense. :)
It was a while ago that I read it but does he not also say (regarding the light armour) something along the lines that if he get's hit by the mountain he's probably done anyway?
I really enjoyed the review btw.
Yeah I mean I fount you will respond but on your point about "fancy" moves. It is pretty practical to do such moves and you could also say that the Brazilians and their Capoiera is effective at fooling.
I'd love to see you analyze the fights in Secret of Nym, Last of the Mohicans (climax), 13th Warrior (mid point duel and Queen/King fights), and Last Samurai (any fights.) Not saying these are accurate movies, just thought they'd be interesting to hear you break them down.
can you please do a fight review of Aquilles vs Hector in the movie Troy? One of my favorite fights ever!
Great review, I don't suppose you would want to do a review on the fight from season 1 between Bronn and Sir Vardis. I really want to know if the tactic Bronn uses of dodging around his opponent (not unlike Oberen did) is actually as effective as it seems.
I would like to hear more on the mountains fighting style or lack of! I was very disapointed with his style of plate armour, the helmet esspecialy!
"Today is not the day I die."
What about when Oberyn charged at the Mountain at the end of the fight stabbing him in the armored chest? The Mountain still has his sword, and you would think he'd defend himself. He didn't even swing the sword or thrust it forward toward the charging Oberyn. All he does was he raised the sword back as he was struck & fell.
In the book, the Mountain gets so angry he cuts a boy's head off. Guess that worked.