Should You Play the Classics? - Why Game History Matters - Extra Credits
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ม.ค. 2020
- With graphics that age quickly, cartridges and game systems that can be elusive to find, and so many new games coming out every week, it can be hard to understand why anyone should have to go diving through the primordial ooze of games from yesteryear. But if you're looking to get into game design, there's a lot of reasons you should try to twist your hands to fit a N64 controller. Even if newer games copy a particular formula and genre, you should try to dig into the roots of what makes that series good or popular.
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Music:
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Extra Credits 2014: History Games Matter
Extra Credits 2020: Games History Matter
Extra Credits 2026: History Game History Matters?
Extra Credits 2100: The Complete History of Gaming
I'm sure EC put out an episode a few years ago in which Dan lamented the obstacles to playing some 20-30-year-old games on original hardware, and that emulation could be a pale imitation of the original experience depending on the original hardware and input device. ...spent a little while looking for it, and it's actually the one linked in the outro of this video. >.> Thanks for having the forethought to point to the relevant video.
extra credits behind the scenes: The views we get from our history videos matter
@@DragoniteSpam Hey I'm up for a round of Svea Rike
Why not a series of Extra classics? a Series where we can know the history and the details of the games that started all. Like Doom or heretic for FPS or Starcraft and dota for the mobas.
why not a chapter of games you shoul play about clasiscs
Well, we'll have to start with the two games that started all of RPG's major tropes and Genres then:
Wizardry and Ultima
You could check out GMTK's "design icons" series, it's similar to this
@@jamiemccreath3959 Yeah, Space Invaders for the Shoot'em Up genre and the concept of a difficulty curve, and Pac-man for enemy AI, the concept of a power-up, and other stuff.
Yes!
A lot of problem with hit driven industries like games, movies, and animes though, are not that people don't know how to innovate and give original ideas, but because companies *deliberately shuts down* original ideas under the pretense that it's "too risky".
It's especially egregious though when you see companies use "risk" as an excuse, but then when you look at sales numbers, you see that battle royale games, shared universe movies, and Isekai animes can *lose just as much, if not even more money,* than the so called "risky ideas". Which means the copypasting strategy wasn't even a "safe" strategy in the first place, the "risk" was merely an illusion, and *there was never really an excuse not to be unique.*
If anything, by deliberately not taking routes that will help establish their own product's *identity,* companies just ended up making forgettable products that can't sell well because they are exactly that, forgettable and replaceable.
I find this mentality in many aspects of big companies. For instance, someone with a degree is typically more likely to be hired than someone who would actually be a better fit for the job because the hiring manager doesn't want to risk looking foolish. If the employee with the degree turns out to be a dud, he can always excuse himself and say that from his side, he did everything right by hiring someone with a degree, as is expected. In general, this is, I think, the biggest disadvantage big companies have compared to smaller ones: they are slow to change and innovate, whereas smaller companies or indie companies can be much more fluid and flexible
I agree with you, but I wanted to add something:
What I often hate as well is that companies aren't 100% to blame here. If they all keep following the leader it's because the CONSUMERS keep buying their copycats, and since they keep buying, companies think that "it just works" and keep on following the leaders. And not all creators are innovative either, some keep pandering to the lowest common denominator without much thought (just look at anime. Ever since LNs became profitable, the creativity in them has flopped). IMO, both parties are to blame, and those of us who are aware of this should strive for supporting people and companies who make an effort to be original.
Isekai animes are usually based on light novels that also can comes from webnovels so it isnt so risky
While I agree with your comment, "risky innovation" was not what came to mind when watching this video. It's mostly focused on implementing parts of the design from previous hits as a form of making better games. It's less risky and less innovative if you're using a part of something that already worked.
Totally agree, the possibility of economic failure on an idea or concept almost always stops companies from trying ideas that could be great and revolutionary. It seems like it’s the indies and smaller companies who take the rick and reap the rewards while the larger companies come along later and oversaturate and spoil the idea/concept until it’s milked for every dollar and the next big idea is created.
Smaug: *has venomous fangs*
Smaug: *bites somebody with fangs*
Person: *turns into mush because a giant dragon squished them with its mouth*
Smaug; “damn, these things are useless”
any other big creatures around?
They were referring to the Beowulf dragon exhaling a cloud of poison, which could be an interesting game mechanic
Smaug: *suffering from success*
LOL
@@BlueIron64 If you're into Tabletop games, check out Dungeons and Dragons' Green Dragon. Its breath weapon is exactly that - a poisonous cloud that goes around cover. Makes them a lot harder to deal with than the dragons whose breath weapons rely on line of sight.
A good example of watching an older game completely change is street fighter. Street Fighter 2 is probably the most influential game in the fighting genre and yet SF 1 is soooooo different it's amazing seeing what didn't work.
Yeah, and in SF2 one of the biggest things they did, was deciding to keep the Combo System. It was a bug that became a feature, because they understood how AMAZING it was. If it didn't have that, I don't believe that it EVER would have been the Cultural Phenomenon that it was. I mean sure, it would have been better than SF1, probably been OK. Though I am not sure it would have truly created a GENRE.
I mean SF1 certainly was innovative at the time, but it didn't really do anything truly SPECIAL with it. It didn't do anything to "WOW!" players.
Ok the caveman playing the rock with a bone needs to be an art print
Yaaas!
Indeed!
Or a t-shirt
How about a “Games You might Not Have Tried” of the classics that people should play, or at least be aware of, why they’re important, what they innovate and iterated, and where we can find their influence now?
And not just the good ones, it's useful to learn from others' mistakes. Ashens put out two books about that, Terrible Old Games You've Probably Never Heard Of, and the sequel, Attack of the Flickering Skeletons. Learning from what others failed over helps you avoid repeating it. Sure, we've all heard of the pile of ET carts and the crash, but the rest naturally end up being obscure because, well, they suck.
There's actually a series for this already.
I love how "I am Error" is the example for a poor translation, since in that game (Zelda 2), "I am Error" is the **correct** translation, it's its counterpart "Bagu is my name" that is the wrong one, since he's supposed to be named "Bug" making the pair a reference to software bugs and errors
Older games can be great. Also: the bias that older games are simpler is flat out wrong. Many older games put modern games to shame for gameplay complexity.
Hear hear
Takeshi's challange
The argument made is not about simplicity, it's about focus. It's about what a game wants to be from the start vs a lot of stuff added to stay fresh and relevant, even if not vital for the core gameplay loop.
For example?
@@conormurphy4328 Old CRPGs.
The original Might and Magic had an aging mechanic, where your characters could get too old over the course of the adventure and not be able to do any more.
Many roguelikes separate use mechanics for items into multiple different categories -- drink isn't the same as quaff in nethack, for instance -- for the purpose of differentiating how the player character interacts with them.
Though text interfaces are considered clunky and obsolete nowadays, many games back in the day used them to great effect, such as Zork or many classic MUDDs, in order to allow players a much greater degree of complexity in world interaction than they could have gotten from an arguably more streamlined interface.
There are a lot of examples you can find of incredibly -- even hideously -- complex older titles. You don't need a super-powerful computer to have a lot of depth to what you're doing if you have solid systems in place, though by that same token depth and complexity aren't necessarily the same thing either (something that modern games actually struggle with more than classic ones do.) The original Elite had procedural universes to explore in the 80s, and the original Wasteland was an open world post-apocalyptic RPG in the same decade.Cinematic platformers like Prince of Persia and Out of This World required incredibly nuanced control from the user to account for the somewhat stiff movement of the characters that, in turn, allowed for a more complex kind of platforming than many other titles offered.
Modern games are a lot less opaque than older games were. Modern games tend to be made with the benefit of experience in regards to what works and what doesn't, and what kinds of actions are either necessary or fun for players to be able to take within a game. That knowledge tends to promote simplification and streamlining of mechanics rather than increased depth in many scenarios, though. RPG and simulation games have, over time, significantly decreased the complexity of many of their mechanics (on the whole) and in many cases have even reduced the scope they try to achieve with their stories and worlds. The rise of 3D graphics allowed certain game types, like action-combat games, to arguably increase in complexity, but that comes with the caveat that those are, arguably, more often than not reactionary games rather than games focused on deep and complex mechanics to begin with.
Basically, most all games are good and worth looking at. Learning what makes olde games tick is analogous to learning one instrument part to a piece of music before trying to master the entire arrangement: it will lead you to better understand the subtleties involved in certain mechanics and changes, and why others do them differently.
I really liked Hollow Knight, so I decided to buy the PS1 version of Castlevania SOTN and was really surprised how well it still holds up. Some games definitely are worth going back to.
i agree SOTN has so much content new games like it dont have which is crazy
Hollow Knight is a beautiful game
Ever try to go back to NES Metroid, especially if you missed it the first time around? Shit's rough man, but somebody had to lay the groundwork.
Symphony of the Night is a goddamn masterpiece though. I'm in the middle of Hollow Knight now, I'm not sure how I feel about the adding of Dark Souls elements.
I actually started with Aria of Sarrow (because I didn't have a PS as a kid, and SotN wasn't easy to get until it came out on XBLA), and though I like SotN, I thought it a bit clunky, and found myself preferring AoS more. Still, for learning purposes, definitely worth the play. =)
Nice
The 21st century equivalent of "Should you read the classics?"
So basically, yes, but yes?
@@SlaaneshiKitty Unfortunately classic books are much more easily accessible than classic games (legally). The industry does an extremely poor job of preservation.
Xagzan agreed, but like film, it has not yet become fully understood the value of preserving said classics. Hundreds of classic films were lost forever when as a cost cutting measure their master copies where wiped and recorded over with new films due to a short sighted nature not thinking such things had value.
I would argue that while video games as an industry have more work to do from a preservation standpoint, at least we have the original consumer copies in most cases. It wasn’t till fairly recently that your average consumer could own a copy of a movie they enjoyed.
@@Xagzan true. Ultima online doesn't exist anymore for ex, at least not in the relevant form.
I'd say "should you read the classics" is still a relevant 21st century question, too! Interestingly, I once saw Graham Lineham (an Irish comedy writer based in the UK, if you don't know who he is, creator of the IT crowd, Father Ted etc) talking to Charlie Brooker (these days best known for Black Mirror) about video games, and he thought that both games and films were getting worse because games writers have stopped reading books. I 100% agree with that. Playing games and watching films won't teach anyone to be a good writer, even in terms of games and film, and many of the greatest writers are at least familiar with the classics. So I'd say that everyone should play classic games and read classic books, particularly creators.
Before watching, I will say that yes, you should absolutely play classic video games that are historically or culturally significant. There are so many changes in design philosophy, player interaction, and aesthetic performance that have occurred over the years that it's almost impossible to frame it all in a short discussion or through the experience of playing only a handful of games that borrow from old conventions. To feel all of that historical progress, you have to be well-traveled in the medium by spending time with classic or acclaimed titles, no matter how they have aged.
I think just learning what influence they had is enough and I feel like nostalgia has a effect on your comment like it has on this video.
Depends. If you're the average consumer, you don't really have much of an incentive to play older games. Why play the First Final Fantasy when the newer ones have way more content, polish, care, narrative and good controls. Most Games older than 2002 are simply too lacking compared to their modern counterparts to be worth pursuiing for their own sakes.
For designers themselves, there is more of a case as older games are often the expression of a raw and unrefined idea that can inspire and inform a lot more knowledge. For example, The Early Rainbow 6 games were fantastic tactical shooters whereas many of their later entries shed that aspect. Someone could study R6-1-3 and get a lot of interesting design ideas from that than say, the Vegas Games.
However, I'd argue that at this point, there's not much point going earlier than 1996. The limited tech of the time and the unfocused game design philosphies of the time make most games not as fun or as valuable as later games
Short answer: yes
Long answer: yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees!
I disagree and like they even said availability is one big hurdle alone and I feel nostalgia has a big influence when people say you have to play older games.
@@aroace7913 It REALLY depends on what old game you want to replay though. If it has timeless elements you can literally play it any time anywhere you want. If it was about games that used tank controls, had "realistic graphics" then...well maybe it had other aspects that were just better than some games now, making them a little bit more attractive t play despite the tank controls and graphics. Also some nostalgia does help as well.
@@aroace7913 you can always play a emulator for pc
@@heiskanbuscadordelaverdad8709
You can but that doesn´t mean it is good when it comes to availability.
Short answer: eh
Long answer: On one hand, many of the games made today (not necessarily by the biggest studios) are amazing. OTOH, FOMO is a thing and I say if you have an older game you shelved while keeping up with the latest releases, pick that up. It's cheaper, less stressful and there are no DLCs nor updates to worry about.
Really, it's up to you.
I'm surprised Breath of the Wild wasn't mentioned in this episode, since the pitch for BotW was "to capture the what the original Zelda *felt* like".
Man, when I didn't have anything to play for a while I bought Castlevania: Symphony of the Night and had a BLAST. Such a great game, even 20 years later. Music and graphics were absurdly beautiful too!
"He who controls the past commands the future. He who commands the future conquers the past."
Dos anybody remember the first game of the series that uses this quote?
Command and Conquer: Red Alert
Obligatory " "I Am Error" wasn't a mistranslation, but a joke that fell flat" comment.
I was looking for this! For anyone who doesn't know: there's another character in Zelda 2 named Bagu (in the English translation). In Japanese, these characters would be Error and Bug, and it works better in Japanese because these are English words. So because they didn't translate Bagu as Bug, they should probably have translated Error as Errol instead.
The translators only translated half the joke. There was supposed to be another character "bug".
@@edcrichton9457 Yeah, that character is still in the game, but he calls himsel "Bagu" because that's how it's transcribed into Japanese... Hmm so it IS a mistranslation, but Bagu should get the credit and not Error!
I think we're onto something here!
@@edcrichton9457 the other character, Bug, was mistranslated as Bagu.
@@steveh1474 fek thoose Translators man!
Stardew Valley was an effort to improve upon Harvest Moon....and was successful.
Chrono Trigger is another game that was great and wasn't copied a lot.
Copied? not gonna lie, i tried it 15 years later and i couldn't believe the features it had for it's time (the lack of pause while deciding a move was annoying tho) was amazing and even today i haven't seen a single game that compares
I mean, the game is basically open world and has many mechanics that most modern RPGs lack
Stardew over everything!
True, though it wasn't purely inspired by Harvest Moon, there's a bit of Zelda and I forget what else in there too.
Stardew Valley basically took the original Harvest Moon and did that more, while in the meantime, Natsume kept iterating on Harvest Moon poorly. Harvest Moon 64 was pretty good but later games the actual mechanics just kept suffering. The whole relationship between where Harvest Moon started, where Natsume thought it should go and where Stardew decided to iterate could be a class all its own
I just played CT again and was surprised with how it was even better than I remembered, and how so few games have tried anything like its mechanics. Primarily the team combos were not just novel at the time, but would seem completely new and unique if an RPG with that deep of a teamwork system came out today. It's a classic and a breath of fresh air at the same time.
I just enjoy playing pinball and minesweeper
and then again DOOM on the library computers
I strongly believe that experiencing the classics isn't just important if you want to work in the industry in some capacity but also if you want to fully enjoy newer games and games culture as a whole. Nods to tropes or specific games and franchises can be very charming and enjoyable, just like playing with the expectations that comes from those can be, and all of that will be lost on you if you put yourself in a bubble of modern games.
Experiencing the classics of any medium WILL, inevitably, enrich the experience of modern media, no matter if that's literature, film, music or games.
I feel that sometimes nods and references can actually subtract from the experience. Of course it's a result of exectuion. But I am wary of "remember that thing?"
@@PrimordialNightmare Oh yeah of course it's all a matter of execution and shouldn't be overdone but a badly done reference is bad in any case, a well-done one might only be good if you know the thing it's referencing.
@@Pandsu You're right. I agree to suggesting to play classics (and maybe even some bad old games).
The way you speak reminds me of Yoda for some reason. It’s probably the intonation in the sentences
I'm currently playing xenogears and I'm learning a lot about rpg mechanics, design and even timing.
Dude you are in for a ride, wish I could erase my memories and play it again fresh. The translation may be iffy at times, but has tons of charm and has some great jokes.
Probably my favorite story in a Videogame ever and I played it for the first time just 4 years ago.
Realag666 yeah but I'm learning a lot from its short comings. Ex. You can't jump for over a full second before the battle starts, disc twos gameplay is a train wreck that I wish I could play instead of read, and more. Is it good? Yes. As good as it could have been? Not very.
In an unintentionally related note: check out Extra Credits' earlier episodes to see if any of their earlier videos topics hold up. Just don't be afraid of the high-pitched person talking and the omission of the cat.
I honestly preferred Dan's style of narration, even though the delivery wasn't quite as zany/humorous as Matt's, especially during Extra History. Heck, the WW1/Seminal Tragedy series of videos is probably one of the best animated First World War series out there, and the delivery has a large part to do with that.
I still kind of prefer the previous presenter's tone, and I thought visual jokes that didn't use custom artwork were a bit more frequent.
I miss Dan. While the new guy is good, I feel like he doesn’t take the narration as seriously, and I feel like the show is being aimed toward a younger audience now. This isn’t inherently bad, but I honestly might unsub soon, because I felt like Dan was always really trying to get a point across, and it always seemed that whatever topic he was talking about was something he had given serious consideration to and felt passionate about. Nowadays it feels like the gravity of the show has been lifted, and it’s not as rich and thoughtful as it used to be. I hope that the new narrator is attracting younger people to take game development seriously, but I’m afraid that the channel is spreading itself too thin over too many topics, and trying to be funny instead of trying to drive home a point. I miss the old EC, but I suppose that it’s simply a different channel than it used to be.
@@takatamiyagawa5688 Same. I am getting used the new stuff, generally, and the cat is amusing, but it just isn't quite the same somehow.
I'd love to see Dan come back for a bit and do an episode with Matt.
100% yes. This is largely why I bought my daughters a SNES classic for Christmas. They're just getting to the age where they'll be able to appreciate the stories of games forced to rely on merits other than flashy graphics and Skinner box mechanics, and I hope they take the same joy in vanquishing Giygas, Kefka, and Smitty that I did (assuming they don't smash their controllers at the crazy hard difficulty the old ways insisted on).
@jocaguz18 1) That sounds like piracy and 2) it's for my kids, so I don't really want them tying up my computer with their gaming.
3) I've read it's pretty straightforward to add them to the SNES Classic as well.
@jocaguz18 Calm down there PC Master race
@@NotHPotter It also makes for a nice gift and having a physical toy is more appealing than some piece of software on dad's computer.
Adding more games is indeed very easy and I have added a couple dozen titles myself, but it's just as much an act of piracy as playing on a PC emulator is.
The SNES mini? Because it already had 22 games.
Being born at just the right time to follow games with memory from 1985 to present has been one of the highlights of life in every way. Words struggle to explain how much you can get from gaming
Nothing brought my ten year old heart more joy when my dad was digging through a relatives house and he found his old collection of NES games. It might have been almost 30 years after it released, but finally beating Ninja Gaiden II after begging my parents to leave the console on over night still resonates as my favorite gaming memory. A memory that wouldn't exist if I choose to scoff at a game nearly double my age
The true classic is the OG Pong.
Only because Computer Space was too complex for the noobs back than. I find it rather ironic that the second commercially sold video game was developed with the mindset tp produce the simplest game possible but dummming down is supposed to be a modern invention.
The one and only Detraebean That’s too new. The true classic is OG Tennis.
Ahoy released a great video about this back in October.
Also Rogue.
And Space Invaders.
And Pac Man (the original with the half screen on level 256)
The true classic is choose-your-own adventure books
I recently dusted off my childhood game called "Rise Of Nation: Rise Of Legends" Its the game that got me into video gaming in general (I am 20 as of me writing this)
Me too! Those were some of the first games I played extensively. It's a shame that RTS is a somewhat struggling genre these days, the hecticness of trying to manage an empire AND lead your troops at the same time is just something unique.
What system?
@@coyraig8332 On Pc.
i suggest playing star wars battlefront 2 classic
The mission-objectives of the campaign are pretty simple, but the story/narration is actually pretty darn cool, and the maps, classes, shooting and tools themselves are awesome.
Nah that game does not give players a sense of 'Pride and Accomplishment'
Or play republic commando
The real star wars battlefront!
bo b Just to see what not to do
Not playing classics is like telling Mat not to eat Zoey's cat food:it just doesn't happen (sry Matt,but you know it's true)!
4:00 By the way, copying external traits without understanding the underlying mechanics has a special name.
It is called cargo cult, of course.
It's a very long time I've heard that term. Thanks for reminding.
3:09 You thought I wouldn't catch that Psychonauts reference, now, didn't you?
I am on the road crew. This is my stop sign.
Damn it, you beat me to it. Lol.
The milk man was always my favorite level, although Fred Bonaparte is a close second.
My wife actually just played the game all the way through about a month ago, had all three of my boys watching her darn near the whole time. LOL
@@Ozmandias42 "Look at that woman's breasts; they're large."
3:10 Psychonauts, never made it past that one climbing challenge with the rising water/lava. The only game I haven't finished to this day. It haunts me in my dreams and now it even haunts me in Extra Credits videos. Gives me conniptions.
I am a Game Design student and we actually get taught a lot about game history and the evolution of game studies as an academic discipline.
As one of the oldest (36) I have the privilege to have witnessed a huge part of game history myself while my younger fellow students often fail to see the influence classic games had.
But also it was super interesting to dive into the lesser known events of early game development and how technology was such a huge factor in the early years (talking about 60s and 70s). And I also got a fresh perspective on events I grew up with, i.e. the ludologist vs narratologist debate in the 90s.
I definitely recommend everyone to give "Replay - History of Video Games" by Tristan Donovan a read. It's super informative and also quite entertaining.
knowing. your. history. broadens. your. perspective. and. enhances. your. taste!
I. would. believe. that!
well, if the game just doesn't hold up today and isn't fun to play, there's no much point, with that said, there's certainly a lot of games that surpass modern games in their genre and are definitively worth playing
@@rompevuevitos222 Thanks for the reply, but I can't quite say I agree. There's a lot of reasons to try stuff. Even the satisfaction of understanding a different way of achieving the same effect is worthwhile, and fun's one of those things that you can diminish by having it not live up to the incremental improvements made over time, but it can also exist if you allow yourself to revel in the excitement of raw play. I don't think you'd appreciate me going on an infinite subjectivity diatribe, so I just suggest looking at it less as a "can I have fun in the exact same way that I do now with this thing" and more of a personal challenge to think of why design was done without the knowledge of years of refinement. Don't drown in old stuff (its a really good way to burn out), just taste it.
Typing. with. this. many. full. stops. is. stupid.
We had modules covering video game history on my game development university course. Very useful and informative, if not a bit dry.
I decided to go back and play the whole Mechwarrior series before playing the newest edition. Mechwarrior 2, which was my favourite game as a kid, still holds up to this day! There's some weird AI stuff sometimes, but it's still really fun.
one game that has aged incredibly well is the original paper mario for the n64.
this game was a masterpiece.i played it last year for first time(i was 25 years old then,i didn't own an n64 as a kid)
Hidden and dangerous 2,deadly dozen,postal 2,kothor,wolfenstien 3D, syphon filter, empire total war, castlevania 3 all some old games I have been playing and loving even though many where made 3 years before I was born
My only quibble is that there are sometimes better ways to study a game than playing it, depending on your area of interest. If I were doing an art study, for example, I'd rather have a high-res, pausable, variable-speed video than a play experience where I have to focus on my own gameplay. And as a guy with a literature degree, I can say that-despite what your professor might say-you're never going to read the complete English canon, but you do have to know enough about the items you haven't read to be able to understand references to them in a discussion when they're relevant. Our problem is that we lack sufficient critical resources (textbooks, essays, lectures, &c.) to enable that kind of learning about sources we haven't yet had time to experience.
I played ff7 for the first time a couple years ago, more than 20 years after it first was released, and gosh it's now one of my all time favorite games
Another valuable thing I think that older games can teach is dealing with limitations. So much of older game design, especially the behind the scenes stuff, was driven by hardware limitations. While we're blessed to not have such stringent limitations today, there may be some value in learning how the old games dealt with theirs for clever tricks that might be useful today. At very least, many of the great classics were masters at turning limitations into strengths. An old EC episode talks about this trend in video game music, for instance. Samus has the morph ball not because the devs thought it was cool, but because it was easier to animate than her crawling, and look how much better the series is now because of it. We have much we can learn from the masters of old.
"Orcs are good" is also my main takeaway from fantasy settings ^_^
As someone around from the very first video games, I find it a little crazy that vidya-history has to be a thing now. That there are kids out there who see things like Super Mario Bros. the same way they might view a VHS tape or a phonograph -- antiquated and inferior, rather than viewing them as valuable and important progenitors that it is important to experience.
Although the other art mediums have the advantage of having the classics out of copyright, making them accessible. *side-eyes Nintendo
In my opinion corporations shouldn’t be able to claim copyright only creators.
Looks at konami
The other art mediums are also more than 75 years old and thus many classic works become public domain...
@Storm Runner
Perhaps, but that's a chicken and egg situation. When you work for a corporation they own what you created working there.
Copyright was supposed to apply to the work just during the original creator's lifetime, not the company's. Said corporations didn't like that, especially Disney, so they pushed it well beyond that.
Not really when it comes to films newer than 30's
@jocaguz18 Limited how? Or in what way?
Brandon Sanderson in one of his many lectures put forward an idea I think this follows quite well: chef vs cook.
His idea posits that a cook understands that a certain meal is good and could follow a recipe to make it while a chef understands why each of the individual components in the meal work work together to make that mewal a good meal and can therefore use their understanding of those individual components to apply them to other meals.
So in game design or any other medium of creation it is important that the creator understand how each component functions and how it can be used to create and enhance what they are making.
I loved WoW when I played it 15 years ago, now that they released it again finally, Im probly gonna spend the next 2 years playing it, I love the fact that Im back home and a game I love is relevant again.
I miss my GameBoy :(
I saw an ad with a 45-minute playing time at the end of this video.
What's the deal with ads that are way longer than the videos they're interrupting?
Okay so there's this thing.
Whenever I finish a game, I feel like see a lot more references about that game than I did before. For example, the G-Man 3:09 after I just beat Psychonauts...
Either I just notice references more easily after I play a game, or the milkman is always watching me, conniving with the foreign toy makers and the doctors back at the clinic...
Most dragons breathed poison in folklore, like one of the notable things about Beowulf is that the dragon was one of if not the first firebreathing dragon.
4:38 Even without the shirt, i can tell who this handsome son of a gun is.
Nothing but respect for my Warchief
I loved the fish game crawling out of its primordial soup
flashback to Spore
This video made me want think quite a bit.
I would love to see your take on Escape from tarkov, the very recent explosion of interest and its relation to other popular "hard" game like dark soul and PubG.
Don't know if it's a reference to something, but the cave man using a bone controller is a inspired visualization
Sick Psychonauts reference.
I have been using these EXACT arguments for ages! Everything from Tolkien to pubg. Glad to see someone Agrees
AAAAAHHHHH!!! THIS MAKES SO MUCH SENSE!!!! I'm an avid reader, and I've been puzzling over why some stories are more engaging than others when they seem to have the same mechanics. Two stories are obviously inspired by Tolkien, but why does this one feel more engaging than the other? I don't have a good explanation for this, but it never occurred to me that one of them WOULDN'T do some reading on real-world mythology, themselves. My mind is blown.
Beat Super Metroid for the first time recently. It was definitely one of those old gems. Surprisingly, it's difficulty feels spot on compared with modern games.
I thought it was much to easy tbh.
Love the art in this episode.
When you got into the part about delving into the mythology, I couldn't help but compare it to all the Loki fanfics I've been reading (and writing) -- along with one such fanfic-like tale (Wolves) that made it to print by pushing away from the MCU base and going in a different direction.
I've picked up on a lot of details from the mythology because of how often they show up in fics: Loki's lips getting sewn shut, Loki's various monstrous children, Thor being a fertility god, Odin's two ravens, characters like Tyr and Sigyn and Baldr, Farbauti and Helblindi and Byleistr, who never made it to the MCU. There's this crazy mix of elements going on, drawing from myth and film and the comics, and developing various sets of fanon (such as the Loki Slavefics, or how many fics make Loki intersex).
Many authors try to explain events of MCU canon (Odin sentencing Loki harshly without seeming to look into extenuating circumstances; Loki responding to the threat of execution with flippant cheek) in ways that make the characters more sympathetic (maybe Odin was suffering political pressures, or dementia; maybe Loki knew Odin to be merciless and didn't care to try to explain himself when he knew it wouldn't change anything). Others go the opposite way and find new and horrible ways for Odin to be a bad father or for Thor to be a bad brother. And writers play Loki as a woobie or a trickster or a dangerous manipulator or a megalomaniac -- a whole spectrum of possibilities.
If people had focused purely on the MCU films then we wouldn't have anywhere near this variety of content. Heck, if the MCU films hadn't drawn on the comics we wouldn't have Loki, and if they hadn't gone in a different direction with Loki then we wouldn't have such a highly appealing character to play with. And if the comics hadn't drawn on the mythology then we wouldn't have *that* Loki, from which to create the MCU Loki, but if the comics hadn't redefined him as Thor's brother instead of Odin's blood brother, we wouldn't have gotten this archetypal struggle between brothers, in a way that "Thor vs. his crazy uncle" could never have come close to.
Going back to the original material matters -- but one also can't be bound to the originals. And different writers will take it in different directions, and they combine and bleed back across each other, creating new colors as they go. I wish I had time to study more of the trends in fandom, because it's quite fascinating.
When the kids are in the room: Watching Video Game Historian
When the kids are out of the room: Watching Angry Video Game Nerd
In hindsight most of the early 3D games from the PS1/N64 era even if well received at the time have not aged well all. It was a learning experience for most developers; so I’m not going to bad mouth the people who worked on them. They paved the way for what we have today.
The only PS1 3D game that aged really well where Duke Nukem and Tomb Raider (from the 3rd/4th game onwards)
it probably has to do with having a decent engine
Harry Potter did fairly well too but is bland gameplay wise
i work for the road crew, this is my stop sign
The seas shall run white...
I miss playing on my Atari 2600. Loved Pitfall, Frogger, and Ms. PAC-MAN.
I live next to the video game museum in Oakland. Everything in history is there. And they offer a game design after school education.
So that was the announcement of a new EC series? Extra Game History? But for real, something like that would be great, every episode dedicated to a single classic.
In game design school we studied the history of games going back to board games from ancient Egypt which were over 2,000 years old
I'd like to give a shout out here to the "Disc Creatures" game which actually learned the lessons of what made older games so great, like Pokemon and Digimon games, and brought it to more of a modern audience. I think that this game is one of the best examples of what the Extra Credits team is talking about here.
i would love to see a giant chronological map (of...EVERY game :D) how different games evolved (partly or entirely) as a result from other previous games/genres 🥰
Y’know, this video got me think of a game concept... that I can’t make myself due to not knowing how to program. The hypothetical game would be based around an in-universe trading card game that the protagonist can use to channel their abilities from. This idea takes ideas from other games. Witcher 3 (in-universe card game), lost kingdoms (protagonist getting powers from cards) and baten kaitos (cards being the source of all your attacks). But the cards wouldn’t just be for combat. They would also be used for the progression systems. See, you would use the power in these cards to craft and upgrade gear via card puzzles (such as “win on this turn” or “summon this requirement-based monster the right way this turn”). Here’s an example: say you wanted to craft a “gem-adorned sword”. You would have to do a card puzzle with a deck archetype that has a gem theme. (You would also need to have the cards for the puzzle, shown in the “crafting requirements”) if you succeed in the puzzle, the weapon is yours. Plus, win or lose, you don’t lose the cards! Of course, there would be some references to other card games (like a “Cross-Sabre” weapon that is a reference to yugioh’s X-Sabre archetype), but there would be mostly original cards in the game (hopefully). But what do you guys think of my idea? Is it good or dumb?
One think shooters 20 years ago understood that a lot of newer games don't seem to get: you can definitely have too many weapons in a game.
Having 4 different semi-auto precision weapons is just going to confuse players initially. Afterward they figure out which one is best and completely ignore the others. (Looking at you, Halo 4 and 5.)
I have to give props to Fortnite for removing a lot of their weapons in the Chapter 2 update. That's game's sandbox is so much more straightforward and understandable now.
I highly recommend people go and listen to the Dev Game Club Podcast. They (two veteran game devs) play through classic games and talk about them and how they affected the industry, the also have interviews sometimes (The John Romero one is so good!)
Bro I bought an old N64 off amazon and have banjo and kazooie and it’s an absolute gem! It’s probably my favorite game at the moment
Hey, just pointing this out...Magic's set Dragons Of Tarkir had a whole faction based around venomous/poisonous dragons (Silumgar's brood of dragons) so you can go look up that set and see a whole bunch of venomous dragons if you want!
Going to specifically call out Ragnar Tornquist and Paul Reiche III as examples of game designers whose early work is really worth going back to. They made some absolutely fantastic games that have aged quite well, and whose influence can be seen in a lot of games today, if you play certain genres. I doubt very much I would have as much love of games, and specifically RPGs, as I do today without their influence. (Sid Meier, Roberta Williams, and Ron Gilbert are also names you should totally look up to)
In addition to being a full-time indie dev, I'm a part-time game dev teacher for a 501c3 charity that brings STEM & art classes to underprivileged schools. So I teach a gamedev elective where the 1st 9 weeks is effectively a "film study" class for games. I pick an older game, talk about the history and context of a game, play it for a bit, and then have an open discussion about it. During the 2nd 9 weeks, we actually *make* games, watch some videos about gamedev (you guys are a favorite) and talk about design. - Jay
Soo, Binding is a rogue-like... I wonder where that term stems from. :|
And you really have to go further than PUnkBat for Battle Royale. Try Bomberman.
nice tune at the end!
I have a Sega drive still and I enjoy playing on it
3:12 My red sign helps me work on the road.
Just based on the title I thought this would be interesting to me. As someone who didn't play many games as a child I haven't even experienced all the classics I'm technically old enough to have played in their time. I do try and play some classics (if they generally seem appealing to me), but a lack of time will make it impossibly to appreciate all of them (or even all that many).
Watching the videos... yeah, duh. First lessons as an electrician was bending eyelets with hard wire and setting up intricate contactor lines. Probably not gonna need to do that ever again, but ya still gotta learn the beginnings.
Let's all laugh at an industry that never learns anything tee hee hee.
You'reThatMantis I enjoy those segments. Kinda wish Yahtzee would do one of those a week on top of his usual reviews.
I get it this year he’s been on his “develop a game each month” tangent (all of which are really interesting from a design standpoint as well as from a gameplay perspective), and he has his books, and if you told me he also played jazz on weekends I wouldn’t be surprised. He truly is a modern Renaissance Man.
Lol the music at the end there was cool
Can I just say that in my personal experience, playing the classics was IMPERETIVE. I'm no game dev and I'm not a game scholar, but the sheer amount of game information and internet debate I would be completely unable to partake in without having played some NES games, despite no NES having been manufactured during my lifetime (well the mini, I guess, but still), is staggering. My life could have gone if a very different direction without it even!
A game I feel is underappreciated is Super Paper Mario if anyone's played it you'll know what I'm talking about and if you haven't played it play it it's for the Wii it'll work for the Wii U
I did not know, that William Shatner, took over the narration, for this series.
Speaking of Tolkien, I think it's a bit tragic that, at the same time as Tolkien brought fantasy into its own as a genre, he also accidentally limited it. Just because Tolkien drew from Norse mythology and used elves and dwarves as his fantasy races, doesn't mean everyone has to. We're starting to see people branch out a bit more, notably Rick Riordan drawing from Greek mythology in the Percy Jackson series, and Robert Jordan, I'm not sure if he was drawing from a mythic system I'm unfamiliar with or if he invented the mechanics and fantasy races of The Wheel of Time whole cloth, but yeah, why not have a fantasy world that draws from Egyptian mythology, or Chinese, or Celtic? Why stick with a medieval setting, when you could set your fantasy work in the late Bronze Age, or the Early Modern Period, or Late Antiquity? Tolkien will always be a foundational figure in fantasy, but not all fantasy works need to be Tolkienesque.
Absolutely you should play the classics. I'm also a big music fan and I always advocate for going back and doing your homework and learning where certain styles of music came from. Not to mention that lots of the classics are exactly that...really good.
Recently I found a bunch of old school Final Fantasy games (1-4) and I picked them up and I'm currently playing through them and seeing what the older games are like is very interesting. I never found them before and was hesitant to try the oldest ones because of some naming confusions. I beat 1 and now I'm doing 2 and 3 and I have to say...number 2 is interesting to say the least. You ever play an RPG that doesn't have a leveling/XP system? Because 2 has one.
Also again, the classics are often very good. Along with one of the FF games came Chrono Trigger, which I never played before, and damn...that's a good game.
I’m sorry, I wasn’t aware I needed Extra Credits style Gloria(Sword/Shield protag) in my life. But I’m glad I do.
Hopefully she has a thicc Scottish accent
Honestly how is this even a question?
World 1-1 (I don't even need to name the game- you already know.) is a *master class* in game design.
On this particular topic, I recently started playing Final Fantasy 6, a game that's older than I am. Going in, I expected the music to be awesome (which it is), the story to be awesome (It's pretty darn good so far) and the combat to be fairly boring and grindy(which, so far, it isn't).
The combat surprised me a lot because of the sheer diversity in character classes and actual gameplay mechanics, where some classes are fairly traditional 'press button, perform move' type affairs, while others have timed elements or require you to execute a combo of button presses correctly to do something awesome. Very few more modern turn-based games I've played have anywhere near this diversity, so it surprised me to see it in such an old title.
Then there where the little things in the story. In a modern triple AAA party-based RPG you expect your party to banter and comment depending on who you bring, and if the kind of party you bring also has a small effect on cut-scenes that's generally considered to be pretty good and a sign of good effort on the part of the writing team. FF6 already implemented systems like this. I've only played it halfway through so far, but there's been several scenes that I know for certain would have played out at least a bit differently if I'd picked a different party.
Anyway, all of this is to say that playing FF6 so far felt more like I was playing a recently designed, but intentionally retro-looking JRPG with the game's designers and writers including what I think of as modern twists and inovations on the genre. The fact that this game felt that way kinda underlines the importance of the message of this video to me, because it seems something got lost along the way if features of this 26 year old game feel new and innovative to me, when they should long since have become the standard.
There isn't a more true statement in this lecture than the one about new "original" games copying basic mechanics and themes from older games rather than coming up with new ideas. Although, while there are early titles of retro IPs I do like and agree hold up(Mario, Zelda, Mega Man), I do find myself gravitating more to their newer outings that carry on their original genre mechanics with all the new bells and whistles, even Sonic(sue me)
Good topic!
I recall a discussion with a friend about Final Fantasy 15 lately.
He called it a bad FF-Game, because it has no real summons and magic. Just this strange warping-tech.
But if I compare it with FF8, 9, 10 and 12 ( which I loved to play, played some others as well) i think, that they just added the right amount of "Final" into the Fantasy, coming from the old games. For example:
- simple level up by grinding
- a skill system, where you need to collect AP and have to choose which way to go. This affects your play style a lot!
- a very good and emotionally fitting soundtrack
- epic boss fights
- collect and enhance weapons
Ok, there are also things inside the game that are a bit goofy. I mean, why did they add fishing? In an extent that it feels like it's own game! Also the bromance... nothing against the idea, but women were always important characters in the older games. Here they are pushed aside to some "extras"-role...
After all I can say: I like it! Feels a little different to other FF-Parts but is still ok for me.
In comparison, FF13-2 and even 10-2 are much worse!
They use the old setting of the prequel and just smash stuff on top of it. Ff10-2 feels more like a dressup-game, with a completely different main character that only happens to look like Yuna.
So yes: you should know the old ones as well. Not only as a designer, but also as a player.
When my kids are old enough, I think I will give them FF9 to start with...
And a new series was born: Extra Games 😍
This brings up a topic I've been hoping Extra Credits would cover for quite some time: Game Preservation.
The sad fact is that it is only in the last decade or so that video games have started to be taken seriously by the wider community, particularly in academia and intelligentsia, as a form of art and expression rather than just an over-glorified children's toy. And from a corporate perspective games are still a profit-based industry, meaning that once a game is no longer profitable more often than not it's simply cast to the wayside as progress marches on; this is becoming even more concerning in the post-physical media age when should a publisher desire to pull the plug whole games can simply vanish without a trace, remembered only by scattered screenshots and mentions on message boards. But now video games are nearing the half-century mark of their existence; they are clearly a trend that is here to stay and one that more people are taking a serious scholarly interest in studying their history, impact, and evolution. Problem is: How do we study a medium that was never geared toward preservation? How can we play games from decades ago that either no longer exist in a playable form or have lost the consoles or computers capable of running them?
Several organizations, including the Smithsonian and the Library of Congress, have started video game collection programs, if still in a fairly ad-hoc form; essentially taking donations or seeking out (when funding allows) games and consoles, which are then cataloged and stored, hopefully to eventually find a new home in their own interactive gallery. This is a great start, but there are problems; few people administering these programs are gamers themselves, thus often lacking the skills and understanding of those more familiar with the medium. At present, these programs are also taking in essentially anything and everything, with no means of sorting the wheat from the chaff, which is good in its own way as it leaves a chance for unsung classics or cult followed titles to get the same attention as Mario or Zelda, but it also means there's little way to judge each game's significance in the wider timeline, plus there are concerns about physical storage space available.
Another more grass-roots way for classic games to be preserved is through open source mods and clones. Certain fanbases, not wanting their favorite games to die, took it upon themselves to reverse engineer the code and either modify or copy it to run on modern computers, often including minor improvements over the original such as widescreen monitor support. Examples like OpenTTD for Transport Tycoon, OpenXCOM for X-COM UFO Defense, and OpenRails for Microsoft Train Simulator, have shown the viability of this approach for keeping a few much loved games alive.
Let me put it this way: In the roughly 150 years that motion pictures have existed, it is estimated that as much as 50% of all films ever made have been lost forever. Video Games have been around for about a 3rd of that time, and yet our lost ratio may be about the same if not higher. How can future generations look back on the history of video games if there is nothing left for them to look back on. We are at a critical juncture here, we need to start taking video game preservation seriously now, before we lose our chance and it fades away forever.
Dope ending track!
It's interesting to look at remakes vs original game. Compare RE2 vs RE2 remake, and for a less changed example AOE2 original vs AOE2 DE (2019). It's fascinating to see how we got where we are and the ways that older products influence modern game design.
Love me some retro gaming! I played 90's consoles games and beyond when they were new but i missed on PC games of that era up until 2010's. It was quite enjoyable and enlightening playing through games like Wolfenstein 3D, Doom, Duke Nukem 3D, Quake, Unreal Tournement, Dune 2, Command and Conquer, XCOM, Sim City, Rollercoaster Tycoon, Oregon Trail, Descent, Medal of Honor: Pacific Assault, Call Of Duty: World At War, Crysis, Half-Life, Portal, Star Wars: X-Wing / Tie Fighter, Wing Commander, Elite and many more. Even got some of the console games that were also released on PC at that time like Star Wars Episode 1 Racer, Star Wars Battlefront 2 (the real one) and Re-volt. I finally get to enjoy the superior version of those games on PC at a glorious 1080p 60 fps. Fantastic!
I'm not a game dev or anything, but even as an average player i find it somewhat important to play, or at least know about older games. It makes me appreciate modern gaming even more on so many levels. Of course the technical improvements are impressive but it's also about culture and design philosophy. You get references in modern games that you wouldn't even notice otherwise. Seeing how a game pioneered a particular technology or game mechanic is absolutely fascinating and understanding where the common conventions came from and why they were created enhance, at least for me, the enjoyment of modern games.
I like the ending where Mario is holding an Atari joystick.