Thanks Jack for distilling the extensive history & scholarship of Ignatian epistles in this video- and for making such a complex topic super interesting! I also didn’t realise that dating of these epistles was crucial to dating the Gospels! Thanks Dr Vincent for highlighting that!
Yes. He was a faithful episkopos of the early church. When comparing the writings attributed to him, however, we see two enthusiasms which are not shared by the other apostolic fathers (indeed are somewhat contradicted): a rush toward martyrdom, a more elevated conception of the role of episkopos beyond servant/shepherd.
@@Patristica Too bad. 😞 You have made mention of your friendship prior and it would be great to hear a response from him. Would you perchance feature Dieter T. Roth on your channel in the future?
The 3 letters of the short recension seem to end quite abruptly with the epistle to Polycarp missing the entire second half of the letter. You would think that if this was his final communication before his death that he would, at the very least, bid his friends a final goodbye and wish them good luck. Perhaps these are merely heavily redacted letters that were scrubbed of any theology that a sect disagreed with such as a group like the Ebionites who might not agree with the canonical Gospels, the authority of the bishops, or Ignatius' disregard for Jewish law. Maybe the reason they only have these 3 letters is because if they gave the same treatment to the other letters there would be nothing left of them. I think you have to ask yourself if you an objective, unbiased researcher looking for the truth or just searching for evidence to justify a position.
@@todradmaker4297 this is an hypothesis but to support it you would have to show that certain theologies has been removed. Unfortunately, there is nothing obvious that would support your suggestion
@@Patristica The fact that the short recension is missing every and all references to the canonical Gospels, the authority of the bishops, and Ignatius' disregard for Jewish law that we find in the middle recension MIGHT be an indication that they MAY have been redacted. If you are going to use length for your sole criterion for dating a manuscript, if we didn't know any better, one might assume that The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth(the Jefferson Bible) predated both Marcion's and Luke's Gospel and perhaps was even used as a source for their work. As it currently stands, either hypothesis is equally valid.
as always arguments like length cannot stand alone,that is why lexicography, narrative context, external attestation and more has to be added, and these all point to the 3-Letter-Collection seeming to pre-date the 7-Letter-Collection.
Eusebius was born in Palestine, likely in Caesarea or its surrounding regions, in the Roman province of Syria Palaestina. He became the bishop of Caesarea around 313 CE and held this position during a critical time when Christianity transitioned from being persecuted to becoming the favoured religion of the Roman Empire under Constantine. i.e. Ignatius, Polycarp et al are all made up historical characters by later church leaders to historicise the anti-Marcion cannon..
@@DrWrapperband everyone is made up. No body ever existed. Eusebius didn't exist. Constantine was a myth invented by Alfred the Great, who was invented by Charles III.
@@Patristicasame applies to you, Jack. It’s become very clear as of late that you’re a fictitious character developed by the Catholic church to counter claims made by mythicists.
@@Patristica You are being humorous, but ignoring the lack of evidence that, some people mentioned by late Christians, conveniently back date the evidence for their philosophy, which you know is a valid interpretation. We have enough apologist spouting tripe without making fun of people with, what should be, the default position. Those people don't exist without collaborating evidence. I'm pretty pissed and not amused - bit infantile and provably incorrect. :)
@@Patristica The manuscripts attributed to Ignatius of Antioch were found in Greek, Latin, and Syriac versions, with key discoveries occurring from the 11th to 17th centuries i.e. very late, in locations like Byzantine monasteries, European libraries, and the Middle East. The Middle Recension (7 letters) is considered the most authentic core, but debates about interpolation and the existence of Ignatius himself remain unresolved.
Thanks Jack for distilling the extensive history & scholarship of Ignatian epistles in this video- and for making such a complex topic super interesting!
I also didn’t realise that dating of these epistles was crucial to dating the Gospels! Thanks Dr Vincent for highlighting that!
I am really looking forward to learning about Ignatius. Thank you guys for all you do!
Interesting stuff - can't wait to hear more 👍
Sorry I missed the show, I look forward to watching the presentation later.
Great work as always, Patristica!
This was a thorough and enlightening watch, thank you. Will there be a similar presentation on the Clementines literature?
@@fabiogrossodived good idea!
Yes. He was a faithful episkopos of the early church. When comparing the writings attributed to him, however, we see two enthusiasms which are not shared by the other apostolic fathers (indeed are somewhat contradicted): a rush toward martyrdom, a more elevated conception of the role of episkopos beyond servant/shepherd.
There seems to have been quite a publishing industry based around dear Ignatius.
Would be nice if you'd have a chat with Dr. Allen Brent.
@@ParStenberg Brent, Markus, and I are all friends. I could ask Brent but I don't think that'll be an option.
@@Patristica Too bad. 😞 You have made mention of your friendship prior and it would be great to hear a response from him. Would you perchance feature Dieter T. Roth on your channel in the future?
where the labour is great, the gain is all the more.
The 3 letters of the short recension seem to end quite abruptly with the epistle to Polycarp missing the entire second half of the letter. You would think that if this was his final communication before his death that he would, at the very least, bid his friends a final goodbye and wish them good luck. Perhaps these are merely heavily redacted letters that were scrubbed of any theology that a sect disagreed with such as a group like the Ebionites who might not agree with the canonical Gospels, the authority of the bishops, or Ignatius' disregard for Jewish law. Maybe the reason they only have these 3 letters is because if they gave the same treatment to the other letters there would be nothing left of them.
I think you have to ask yourself if you an objective, unbiased researcher looking for the truth or just searching for evidence to justify a position.
@@todradmaker4297 this is an hypothesis but to support it you would have to show that certain theologies has been removed.
Unfortunately, there is nothing obvious that would support your suggestion
@@Patristica The fact that the short recension is missing every and all references to the canonical Gospels, the authority of the bishops, and Ignatius' disregard for Jewish law that we find in the middle recension MIGHT be an indication that they MAY have been redacted. If you are going to use length for your sole criterion for dating a manuscript, if we didn't know any better, one might assume that The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth(the Jefferson Bible) predated both Marcion's and Luke's Gospel and perhaps was even used as a source for their work. As it currently stands, either hypothesis is equally valid.
as always arguments like length cannot stand alone,that is why lexicography, narrative context, external attestation and more has to be added, and these all point to the 3-Letter-Collection seeming to pre-date the 7-Letter-Collection.
Eusebius was born in Palestine, likely in Caesarea or its surrounding regions, in the Roman province of Syria Palaestina. He became the bishop of Caesarea around 313 CE and held this position during a critical time when Christianity transitioned from being persecuted to becoming the favoured religion of the Roman Empire under Constantine. i.e. Ignatius, Polycarp et al are all made up historical characters by later church leaders to historicise the anti-Marcion cannon..
@@DrWrapperband everyone is made up. No body ever existed. Eusebius didn't exist. Constantine was a myth invented by Alfred the Great, who was invented by Charles III.
@@Patristicadoesn't Philip schaff or (didn't i guess ) think Ignatius wasn't a historical figure? At least not the guy who wrote the epistles?
@@Patristicasame applies to you, Jack. It’s become very clear as of late that you’re a fictitious character developed by the Catholic church to counter claims made by mythicists.
@@Patristica You are being humorous, but ignoring the lack of evidence that, some people mentioned by late Christians, conveniently back date the evidence for their philosophy, which you know is a valid interpretation. We have enough apologist spouting tripe without making fun of people with, what should be, the default position. Those people don't exist without collaborating evidence. I'm pretty pissed and not amused - bit infantile and provably incorrect. :)
@@Patristica The manuscripts attributed to Ignatius of Antioch were found in Greek, Latin, and Syriac versions, with key discoveries occurring from the 11th to 17th centuries i.e. very late, in locations like Byzantine monasteries, European libraries, and the Middle East. The Middle Recension (7 letters) is considered the most authentic core, but debates about interpolation and the existence of Ignatius himself remain unresolved.