Multi-bit Magic: Why Sugden's 16-bit Masterclass DAC-4 Beats So Many Modern Hi-Res DACs
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 พ.ย. 2023
- If this isn't affordable digital esoterica, we don't know what is! This quirky DAC was launched in 2015 and is still on sale now, yet it uses tech that first appeared in the mid nineteen eighties!
Mike and David are totally beguiled by how this slinky little box sounds. By modern standards its 16-bit, 4x oversampling tech is terrible, yet it's a wonderful music maker. Poor connectivity and compatibility mean that it isn't for everyone, but hardcore digital geeks will adore it.
Each episode of Hi-Fi Riff features the guys' unedited, unexpurgated views about all manner of weird and wonderful hi-fi designs. Business executive Mike has a wealth of knowledge from previous hi-fi retail experience, and David has written about hi-fi for thirty years. Now Editor-in-Chief of StereoNET, he's picked up a few things along the way.
So relax and enjoy some one-take hi-fi riffing - and please leave your comments below. And don’t forget to hit the Subscribe button, this one goes up to eleven!
The eighties-tastic title tune is called ‘UFO/Mike’s Jumper’, and used with the express permission of our old pal and rights holder Simon Lythe.
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It's refreshing to see companies like Sugden, that appear to put quality of product as a higher priority than profits. A dealer (Stereophonic $3,650.00 Au) in Melbourne Australia uses an interesting expression on it's website to describe Sugden's objective with the Dac 4 that says, " rescuing music from technology." Going by your Riff, it sounds like Sugden have achieved just that.
This is where my DAC search ended, it just has something that all my previous DACs didn't. Foot tapping, Head nodding fun.
Hello. I would like to get your advice if you don't object. I'm planing to connect Sugden DAC Masterclass to YBA CD. Do you think it will essentially improve the sound of stereo system?
I love the TDA1543X8 DAC-AH NOS. Brilliant sounding for £150, astounding realism and very 3D,works well with less than ideal recordings and always gives you something good, hard to explain that. I can't tell you how pleased I am to hear the praise. The TDA 1543 was 1990. Uses an integral current source.
The most musical DAC I've ever heard, and one of the best. Its just amazing what Sudgen managed to do with this old technology
Well done! A great riff! You can also for a price get it in different colours. We Sugden users know when we’re on to a good thing!
Hello. I would like to get your advice if you don't object. I'm planing to connect Sugden DAC Masterclass to YBA CD. Do you think it will essentially improve the sound of stereo system?
Been in love with Sugden since the 1960's - thank you for covering this.
Hello. I would like to get your advice if you don't object. I'm planing to connect Sugden DAC Masterclass to YBA CD. Do you think it will essentially improve the sound of stereo system?
@alexeysklar6743 I'm afraid I didn't manage to get this DAC where I live, I got a different one - but the general consensus is that adding a good DAC to a CD usually improves the sound quality.
see here : th-cam.com/video/TAOLGsS27R0/w-d-xo.html
As always the most enjoyable HiFi channel on TH-cam, glad Mike mentioned the inconsistency with high res, I always go for 16 /44 its consistent and when done with the right equipment sound fantastic as do CD’s with the right player.
Awesome built dac no flimsy stuff that you have to put blue tack underneath lol great stuff as always 😊
Thank you! Glad to hear more about Sugden
Still listen to my Cambridge Audio CD3 4x1541A cd player daily.
Love it.
I'll bet that's a sweet sixteen.
The player that used a pair of double crown TDA1541's that you mentioned is the Marantz CD7. I have one, it is my reference player.
I think my old Audio Alchemy DDE3 has TDA 1541
@@Coneman3 If memory serves, your DDE3 should be kitted out with the AD1862/PMD100 combo.
The latter - the Pacific Microsonics HDCD digital filter chip - is now legendary, a very nice sounding thing that I first heard in a Pink Triangle DaCapo DAC
Yes you are right. I bought a second DDE 3 off eBay, so I have 2, both with upgraded power supplies. I also have a Musical Fidelity Tri Vista 21, Jays Audio DAC2 signature and an Audio Music DAC/1. Kind of spoiled for DACs.
Proof that 16/44.1 is enough when done properly all the way through the chain.
Yes I’ve heard people can tell between red book CD and DSD, but I think this is a myth.
@@Coneman3 I'll take that challenge every day of the week. My wife doesn't give a fig about hi-fi, but when A true studio master (like the zappa masters) goes on, its another level of detail you cannot hear in the 16 bit versions of the same file to the point where may wife asks if it is a different recording. Bigger difference than any cable swap I've ever made, and I do acknowledge those differences too, they really make a difference.
Its a shame so many up sampled poor 'master recordings' were released to muddy the waters, as when its done properly the differences are extremely noticeable and very welcome.
Someone claimed to be able to tell the difference between the 2 resolutions when making acoustic recordings into their computer. How is this possible when the computer DAC chip will only be 44.1/16bit? The quality of the DAC probably makes more of a difference. The hi res recordings were probably just better recordings all round. I doubt the resolution difference is audible but I keep an open mind. You need to in this hobby/business.
m.th-cam.com/video/MiKa7LKXpfk/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygUQSGkgcmVzIG9yIDE2IGJpdA%3D%3D
@@Coneman3 Highres recordings from 2L are really something. (I convert them to 16bit/48khz). The Natasha Barrett - Trade Winds SACD is really fantastic. But it is still fun downsampled to in 16bit 48khz - as I do with many SACD *.ISO images..
Thanks guys, another interesting Riff. Nice to see quirky British companies still surviving and bucking trends.
Many of my favourite recordings are 'proper' studio master files, which sound like I've had a 10K system upgrade when compared to the 16 bit versions of the same master, so this is not a product I would ever use, but respect to those that want it, we are all very obviously different :)
The TDA1543 chip is something in itself. When I had the MOODLAB DICE, a non-oversampling TDA1543 DAC, it had one specific quality: When there was a door ringing in a movie, I jumped up and run to the door - it was that realistic.
The MHDT Orchid with its TDA1541 was a wee too polite, compared, to get that level of realism.
Think of the TDA1543 as a 14bit chip, where the 14bits are more aggressiv, more one the point, more lively, more analog - BUT there are two bits missing in the last bit of resolution.
It is like the best cup of Expresso you have ever had, from a fresh toast of arabica - but a red wine it is not.
Hey chaps. Love the channel and always look forward to your videos. Great review here of the Sugden DAC and really interesting to hear your conclusions. In a similar spirit, knowing Mike is an Exposure 'Queen' [wink], how's about you review the DAC boards available for the Exposure range too? Keep up the good work. As you were ....
The reality is, that in many (or most) studios we use maximum 96kHz/24bit. I do not trust many 192 recordings, because they are mostly just upsampled for whatever reason. And this is mostly done for the original recording tracks, just to provide some headroom frequencywise and, even more necessary, more headroom dynamically. Withing the digital sound processing (for example just the normal mixing and editing process) we almost all the time use 64bit double precision floating point file formats, because all the fixed point formats a far too imprecise to work with. For all you audiophiles which are confused by all this computer stuff: There are plenty of yt-tutorials on the pro audio side.
Great Riff 😊
Great Riff! Seems to be a bit similar to the Audio Note DAC0.1x I am searching for a more „analogue“ sounding DAC. This could be another option. Thank you.
Hi guys love your riffs by the way I have being reading Dave review as long as I can remember
Sorry about that... Mike 😅
There are DIY parallel TDA1387 projects floating around, but Sugden’s classic Philips implementation is of great repute.. I have an older version of a TDA1541A kit dac from Serbia.. A very nice piece of kit..
The reason why this “Stone Age” DAC is definitely 💯 worth having is because of SUGDEN expertise in designing the Sugdenian output stage architecture. It sounds like their Class A design amplifiers.
Hello. I would like to get your advice if you don't object. I'm planing to connect Sugden DAC Masterclass to YBA CD. Do you think it will essentially improve the sound of stereo system?
@@alexeysklar6743 Many hifi producers are in the rat race to produce "better" components. Sugden is centered on musicality. So with Sugden you get "less hifi" - and maybe (artifical) resolution, BUT what you get sounds not only right, but is really fun.
BTW, you get the same result with McIntosh gear - its sounds "right" and very musical - for 3x the price that is.
Gave up on the jungle that is high res masters very quickly too! 16 bit sounds great on my Sugden double crown AU51 btw 😊
Hello. I would like to get your advice if you don't object. I'm planing to connect Sugden DAC Masterclass to YBA CD. Do you think it will essentially improve the sound of stereo system?
@@alexeysklar6743 If you are asking me, I havent heard either unfortunately
Nice, I’ve recently got a Sugden 21se sig ( in gun metal blue….lush) was interested in this but haven’t seen any reviews, so great to get your perspective. I’ll definitely demo it when I’m ready.
Hello. I would like to get your advice if you don't object. I'm planing to connect Sugden DAC Masterclass to YBA CD. Do you think it will essentially improve the sound of stereo system?
The problem is that with streaming purveyors, sometimes the original masters are not always available anymore. Some remasters try to respect the original (usually older remastering)... while others are aberrations that are practically a rework of the original tweeting issues that go beyond simply enhancing dynamics.
Hello. I would like to get your advice if you don't object. I'm planing to connect Sugden DAC Masterclass to YBA CD. Do you think it will essentially improve the sound of stereo system?
Hi-res is adding up gitter and is hard to make sound better then 16 bit red-book.
So much agree with everything said here!
Great Riff, I always enjoy the odd man out products as opposed to the run of the mill “me to” products. Too many of those type of products place technology as a USP, over what they actually sound like. Ok some people like the very high res products purely as it gives them bragging rights. Some times they throw the baby out with the bath water. Well done Sugden.
Hello. I would like to get your advice if you don't object. I'm planing to connect Sugden DAC Masterclass to YBA CD. Do you think it will essentially improve the sound of stereo system?
@@alexeysklar6743 Hello Alexey, Firstly I am no expert on our hobby but I can give you my opinion for what that’s worth. As I recall the YBA is a French design originally. They used Wolfson DAC ‘s. I personally like their sound having used them in Rega and Exposure product’s. They are fairly musical with a good bass. Currently I use a Chord DAC which is quite different in many ways. Checking back on the riff review of the Sugden (not having heard one myself), it is a bit of a left field product this being my understanding of it. If you don’t stream hi resolution and use the Sugden for CD resolution mostly it could be worthwhile. They say it majors on dynamics and musicality. Just a thought check if the YBA has a digital out. Again I value musicality and speed over most other things. Anyway good luck with what ever you do. Cheers Steve.
It looks pretty too.
A lost point from the Riffometer (review of the Riff) for the stereotypical Yorkshire comments - from a Yorkshireman!
But seriously - great Riff. Have always loved the A21 amps.
Weird product all day long. Normal product I don't trust. Thanks guys, gota love Sugden.
Another vote here for a future Riff on’t’original A21……
Working on it... Mike 👍
Great Video, thank you!🌹🌹🌹 Which Streamer to use with the Sudgen DAC??
Excellent question! We'll have a chat about that. Mike 👍
Sitting idly, thinking of car analogies, Sugden would be the Jowett of hi-fi. Except luckier. They never had a 'Javelin' to bring the company down. (One for the younger listeners - a brilliant car, years ahead of its time, brought down by stupid errors - a sort of English NSU RO80, albeit with a proper engine.)
Great rift as always and a big thanks for reviewing a DAC that's not a Chord however their are many more hi-res dac's other than Chord please review these, yes Chord are very good sounding DAC'S, but INHO there are better sounding dac's out there, also how about the old but amazing Naim DAC especially with the XPS DR PSU or even better the 555DR PSU keep on the highly entertaining and informative rifts
Thanks for the suggestion, Nick. I'll see what we can do. More Naim stuff coming soon, by the way. Also, we have another hi-res DAC that isn't a Chord, coming soon.
Without wanting to start another too technical dispute about digital audio conversion types and the likes, the funny thing and topic (besides the mentioned DAC) here is the fact or the illusion, why a seemingly "bad and old" DAc chip still (or now) sounds actually very good and can provide extended listening pleasure. Because musical enjoyment and listening pleasure is the topic of hifi anyway, isn't it?
So even more funny is, that the 1543 sounds good without any oversampling (although it can work up to 192kHz) and without any output filters, even without any proper output stages too. It has a current output, so this current must be converted into voltage for further amplification etc. And this can be done with two simple resistors. So, this chip, originally intended to be "just" a cheap and easy solution for low and midfi equipment, turns out to be actually quite good. Good in what terms? It measures not so good, it has a lot of distortion figures, and should actually sound quite modest at least. Other DACs measure quite bad too, but do sound good (like the Denafrips ARES II for example).
The question here seems to be: Do all those people who like well-made DACs with this chip (like the Sugden obviously is) listen differently to those who despise it? There is something very tricky with digital audio (since it is much more difficult in reality) and with the performance of hifi equipment, and why we still go on discussing it (sometimes with furor and a know-it-all attitude - I appologize...😇).
I cannot help myself to like companies like Sugden because they do not give a sh*t about what the "textbook" says, by using Class A amplifiers and also seemingly old fashioned Dac chips. Even the development engineers are allowed listen to their products and can choose what path to follow.
How would you describe the tone from low frequencies to high and how they're presented?
When you say fun do you mean a forward presentation?
The TDA 1543 was a cheap version of the 1541 - both were/are using resistor ladder technology. The 1543 has nevertheless a great reputation amongst certain audiophiles because it can provide - especially used without any oversampling! - a much better time and phase correct signal, and therefore for many a better and more musical and natural sound quality. Not as detailed as those better dac chip of a more modern approach. I have made already several versions of DACs with that chip, and there are several others by well or not so well known manufacturers, like the quirky Shigaraki 4715 DAC from 47labs/Japan, the Vertex AQ Aletheia dac-1 or the CAD 1543, just to name a few - no oversampling, no output filters, ultra low noise power supplys, well designed output stages - and astonishingly good sound. Of course they can only do 41.1/48kHz - 16bit, but if the music masters are good, this is fairly enough.
The sugden - as far as I know - does not downsample from 24 to 16bit, it just does not play those lower bits (everything below -96dB). This is a sort of truncation, but since there is very little to hear in those very quite region, it does not make a big difference. Actually a 24 bit DAc chip provides a real resolution of 21bit maximum. 24bit would be around -125dB, a signal to noise ratio which is already wiped out by the thermal noise of a simple resistor.
(But, I think, David, you know all of this anyway).
Truncating the lower bits without dithering is the worst thing one can do because it makes quantization distortion very obvious. Mastering engineers learned that decades ago (since the advent of higher than 16bit recording and mastering) so CD production from higher bit / higher sample rate files involves both downsampling and dithering but it seems, based on your words, that some 'audiophile' manufacturers haven't yet. If that is the case here it will be very obvious when playing well recorded 24bit files, for example of classical music not dynamically compressed pop. Not using a reconstruction filter, if again that is the case, will have a detrimental effect on the highest frequencies due to aliasing but again, 'audiophiles' tend to be older with very 'truncated' hearing in the upper octave..
@@razisn ok, it is you again. Since you know what dithering means, you also know that it is not introduced by the DAC but is done within the mastering process and is on the recording. But I guess, the 1543 nevertheless does some sort of dithering (noise masking) by itself, because of its "lower quality".
@@klaushollinetz7494 you obviously do not understand what quantization distortion is and what dithering exactly does. Hint: QD does not effect only the lowest levels of the signal but it is distortion that is added to all of the signal. Hint2: Dithering is a mathematical process, it is not noise shaping (which is often used in conjunction with it) and it certainly is not noise masking (as in psychoacoustics) as you imply. I'm not here to teach you, there's material freely available if you're interested. Dithering MUST be introduced whenever a higher bit file is converted to a lower bit one by whatever process does this conversion and it must be of the correct kind and level. Any noise added at any random stage will not do. What the particular implementation does or does not do I have no idea, but if it doesn't dither higher than 16bit files when truncating them, it is a bad idea to play higher bit rate files through it. Btw I refrained from making any technical comment on this review exactly because these reviews are designed to be non-technical, highly subjective and lightly entertaining. But whenever I see some self proclaimed non-expert 'expert' posting uninformed comments. I can't resist replying. I'm afraid you will have to suffer me in the future too.
@@razisn I very much enjoy your thoughts gentlemen, as they expand on the subject being discussed in a detailed, accurate and thoughtful way.
But by its very nature Hi-Fi Riff is not a video version of an Audio Engineering Society seminar, and our target audience is not audio electronics professionals.
So please do keep commenting, but in the spirit of the channel let's try and keep it as light and friendly as possible please, chaps.
@@razisn If you are in Austria sometimes, please let us join forces and have a couple of beers together. Ok?
I wonder if you recall a modified original integrated Philips CD player back n the end 80's/early 90's called the MODSQUAD. Of the CD players I owned including some pretty high end front end's, the sound this box provided is the only one I still think about.
I do... David probably owns one!
Mike
I have a Sugden A21---I would love to know how this sounds with the Bluesound Node. Cheers!
Oh, by the way; I have the SUGDEN A21SE SIGNATURE Pure Class A amplifier. It’s safe to say that I am a SUGDENIAN 😅
David,I think you've used the expression "deja vu all over again" before.😊
Yes, it's one of my favourite 'George W Bush-isms'. Also love it when he said, "the French don't have a word for 'entrepreneur'".
Hahaha - brilliant! Mike 😂
Are they related to the actress on Are You Being Served? Also who builds a DAC with no balanced outputs?
Chord give their products Christian names... Sugden should definitely call this the "Mollie" 😁👍. Mike
People thinks that 24/192 (or even higher) will sound better. That's not the case! If you have 24/192 files sounding better, then it's the source / the mix! So i'm not surprised the Sugden DAC can sound great, providing most of the sound quality / optimization comes from the analog section of the DAC. And Sugden are very good at analog so no surprise again! Analog design in a DAC is the most important part. Using twisted cable for signal cabling, put the PS in a faraday cage (trap EMI), using quality caps, designing high audio quality filters, filtering power supply, separate the digital part from the analog one, etc.
th-cam.com/video/cIQ9IXSUzuM/w-d-xo.html
Hello. I would like to get your advice if you don't object. I'm planing to connect Sugden DAC Masterclass to YBA CD. Do you think it will essentially improve the sound of stereo system?
@@alexeysklar6743 Hard to say without any measurements / listening session.
Hey guys✌️
how does the DAC compare to a Pontus ll❓...I had a Chord Qutest and in my opinion it's snake oil...about the size of a deck of cards and the colored marble buttons stick...its like buying an amazon basic digital converter for €30...to each its own...it did nothing for sound in my system...
When will you review a model of the Yamaha A-S line of amplifiers?
Ah, good idea. I've done several of them for StereoNET, and previously Hi-Fi Choice. Leave this with me...
Audio Note have always said a good 14 bit dac can do an extremely good job with audio.
I doubt many high res recorders are capable of more than 10-12 bits or so resolution in the real world anyway, owing the quantization error caused by the sampling time. In other words, they can't sample the audio signal instantaneously , so that creates an error on each sample before you've started.
I think Aries Cerat Kassandra DAC uses TDA 1541s.
More bits equal more noise to shape and cancel. Sugden have made an older chip work with less noise around newer circuit.. All good
Is that a ring knocking? I always take my watch off when moving or adjusting hifi. Don’t want scratches.
Actually no, it was the microphone stand!
Silk Degrees is a killer album
Isn't it just! I am going through a phase of listening to relatively obscure mid to late 1970s UK and US rock at the moment, and this is a high point.
Boz Scaggs was huge in the USA, not so much here.
Omg... Don't encourage him!
I'll have to bring my Styx albums over with me for the next Riff! Mike 😂
Love a bit of Styx when in the mood for them
I personally believe Sugden sets the standard price point across the globe.
I listened to a 21 se paired up to my ATC SCM 11’s and it quite frankly mauled them. It was bizarrely comparable to a Supernait 3 ?
Hello. I would like to get your advice if you don't object. I'm planing to connect Sugden DAC Masterclass to YBA CD. Do you think it will essentially improve the sound of stereo system?
@@alexeysklar6743 it should do but always audition if you can first
Boz 👍
usb-b mate
Thank you. I knew I was wrong, but could not think which it was.
I blame David!
Hi Res ...Schmezz
If it works and people enjoy and still buy them, why spend thousands and thousand of dollars or pounds on R&D to get maybe a slightly better sound.
Lend me a dime and I might buy one Boz.
I watched until the end just wanting to find out if it can play Rush CDs but I never did.. what a disappointment.
It sounds best with Signals!
So sorry! It's a resounding "yes". Mike
Jezzzz..... really guys. 24min long and you never show the freaking inside of the unit?! Do need me to send you some screw drivers?
It's probably almost empty.
So is your next step to start reviewing CD transports? Not CD players used as transports, please. Why would anyone buy a disc spinner plus DAC in one chassis, and not use the built in DAC? Or, when you have DAC already why would you buy another DAC built into your CD player? Everybody seems to have a DAC, so CD transport only looks like the way to go.
Dumb comment
Hello. I would like to get your advice if you don't object. I'm planing to connect Sugden DAC Masterclass to YBA CD. Do you think it will essentially improve the sound of stereo system?
You did not intend this for my attention, did you? I am just your average punter. I cannot give advice.
Ummmmmm,……..ummmmmm
Not a fully balanced DAC with proper XLR outputs? What is that Brit expression? Oh yes, Rubbish!
It's amazing how good 'rubbish' can sound, if it's done right. 🙂
@@MrVinylista Sorry but at this price one can find a lot better.
@@AMG-BENZ-1 Did you have anything specific in mind?
@@MrVinylista Too many to mention so you can do your homework and discover plenty.
@@AMG-BENZ-1 Okay, will do. 🙄
Don't the really high end Audionote do something similar only with no over sampling and their entry level starts at £3500... Oh when are you going to review dCS against a Chord....????
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckmondwike this is where Sugden are